[Dominions] The Ten Whammies in Dominions
Alex Poger
* What is a Whammy?
A Whammy is a technique that is so potent and unexpected that it can
shift the balance of power all by itself. There are many strategies in
the game of Dominions that are very potent, yet there are some basics
that experienced players seem to cultivate on a routine basis. As the
player base gets more and more competent these situations are becoming
more common. While I am not normally a big advocate of giving away
secrets, I feel that it is getting hard on newer players who have no
idea what they are facing. I am writing this essay in an attempt to
educate the newer players so they have a competitive chance when
entering games. This will level the playing field a little and will (I
hope) help stimulate the production of even stronger strategies in the
future.
1> Super Combatants
* What is a Super Combatant?
A Super Combatant is a character that is so powerful that it can take
on entire armies by itself!
Super Combatants are usually pretender gods, but can sometimes be
large summoned creatures.
While no Super Combatant is invincible, they can be difficult to stop
unless you have some method prepared before they begin to savage your
resources. New players rarely have counter techniques prepared and as
such are extremely vulnerable to a well deigned Super Combatant.
Super Combatants will have many of the following characteristics;
Much health, incredible protection, untouchable defense,
regeneration, trample, flying, immunity to fire/cold/lightning,
immunity/resistance to missiles, increased resistance to magic, luck,
etherealness, heat or cold shield, and astral shield.
A well crafted Super Combatant will have enough of these attributes to
stand a reasonable chance of surviving immense numbers of enemies
while being able to lash out and kill/rout the opposing army.
Super Combatants take a commitment in time and resources. Many players
will not dedicate themselves this heavily to a strategy that places
all their eggs in one basket. Still, there are many players that enjoy
the risks and rewards of flinging about Super Combatants. If you
intend to play Dominions competitively you will need to stay aware of
this issue.
In order to fully grasp the dangers involved, I offer these two
examples:
Example #1
Sphinx pretender god (Astral 8, Water 3)
Magic Items: Amulet of Anti-Magic, Pendant of Luck
Spells cast upon entering combat: Quickness-Body Ethereal-Astral
Shield-Breath of Winter
Example #2
Great Mother pretender god (Earth 3, Nature 1)
Magic Items: Main Gauche of Parrying, Charcoal Shield, Robe of
Shadows, Horror Helmet, Boots of the Messenger, Pendant of Luck,
Amulet of Resilience
Spells Cast upon entering combat: Invulnerability
There are many other combinations that can be created, but these are
the two most common themes.
The teleporting ‘rock‘, and the trampling menace.
There are a variety of strategies that a player may use to counter a
Super Combatant, however much depends on the capabilities of the
nation in question and the vulnerabilities on the particular Super
Combatant being attacked.
Techniques to counter a Super Combatant:
* Mass Crossbow attack
This is probably the easiest counter to create since it involves
troops that might be available to a player naturally or through
acquired provinces. Crossbows are ‘armor piercing’ and
can sometimes overcome a Super Combatants high protection value. Then
again, often they won’t, and some combatants will have missile
countering mechanisms. This is unreliable but is often the only tactic
available to a player under surprise attack.
* Curse
The spell curse requires one level of astral and one level of nature
magic. Jotunheim starts with the spell and mages that can cast it.
C’tis has the mage, but needs to do research. Most other nations
will have to get lucky with a mage that gets a random magic or will
have to pick up a mage from an independent province (usually a lizard
shaman). You may also craft the magic item ‘Totem Shield”
which casts curse in combat, but you still need astral/nature to make
it. There is no defense versus curse, and it lasts forever. Once a
Super Combatant is cursed it will have a greatly increased chance of
acquiring battle afflictions. A stack of afflictions can often
debilitate a combatant, or even better might curtail or destroy its
ability to cast spells. Many combatants are dangerous to touch, and as
such the best way to get in those afflictions is to curse, then pepper
the combatant with missile fire or summoned creatures.
* Spell Failure Casualty
There are a variety of spells that will debilitate or destroy a Super
Combatant if it fails a single spell check. Many combatants are not
vulnerable to some of these spells, and many combatants will have high
(and augmented) magic resistance. Still you may get lucky, and you
only need to get lucky once.
Some spells you should keep in mind are: Soul slay, disintegrate,
charm, polymorph, paralyze, bone melter, and control.
* Ethereal Crossbow
Similar to the category above, any being hit by and ethereal crossbow
must make a magic check or die. This requires a successful crossbow
hit on top of the magic check and isn’t easy to get, but
sometimes you don’t have many options. The crossbow works
underwater and during storms, plus can be fired by any commander. If
you are lucky it can do the trick.
* Bow of Botulf
If you are lucky enough to hit the enemy with this weapon it may drive
them ‘insane’, an affliction that will impede their magic
abilities.
* Seasonal Spirits (Summer Lions, Winter Wolves, Spring Hawks, and
Fall Bears)
As these ritually summoned creatures have 50 morale and do not fatigue
they may be good for hammering on a Super Combatant. They will often
fare much better than common troops. In particular if you can use
winter wolves versus combatants using breath of winter or use summer
lions versus combatants using a charcoal shield/fire shield you may be
able to dodge one of the combatants more unpleasant properties. Still
these spirits are expensive and are often considered a players elite
troops. Putting them in against a Super Combatant is risky and may
incur serious losses even if successful.
* Elementals
Elementals are similar in power to the seasonal spirits but have the
benefit of being inconsequential to lose since they are summoned anew
every battle. A group of mages can overwhelm a combatant with
continuous summonings. Even if overwhelmed combatants are not killed,
they can often be routed. Better still, if the combatant becomes
immobilized by the mob of elementals (more common with air elementals)
then the combatant will eventually “auto-perish” after
many rounds of unsuccessful rout. This is probably in the game to
prevent infinite combats, but also can be twisted to help fight hard
to kill combatants.
If you do not have any of these counters handy, you are playing Super
Combatant roulette.
Perhaps you’ll get lucky… Perhaps not.
2> Instant Magical Movement
There are three spells that allow players to move characters and
armies to a location of their choice. These are Cloud Trapeze,
Teleport, and Gateway. Cloud Trapeze and Teleport allow the casting
mage to move, while Gateway allows the entire army to transport. This
magical movement is incredibly potent for two reasons. First, it
allows you to go anywhere in one move/turn. I hope I don’t have
to explain why this is powerful. Second, this movement occurs during
the magic phase BEFORE ordinary movement. Hence by making a magical
move you may land an attack on an ordinary force before they can move
away, and thus you will have the advantage of choosing your fights.
There is no real counter for instantaneous enemy movements beyond
staying aware that it can happen and trying to anticipate it. Keep in
mind that Pythium, Arcoscephale, and R’lyeh have native mages
that can cast both teleport and gateway once they have done the spell
research. Some Super Combatants (Sphinx and Monolith in particular)
will use teleport to make their ‘move’ versus your armies.
Many players take astral skill on their pretenders just so they have
some access to gateway later in the game. No joke folks, expect it.
3> Magic Duel
Magic Duel is a third level battle evocation. Two mages with astral
skill ’duel’ and one dies. The spell description states
that the mage with higher skill is the likely winner. I have witnessed
many duels, and have never seen the weaker mage kill the stronger
mage. At this time I consider the higher level mage to have a certain
victory, although there is a chance that the low level mage can win
and I just have never seen it happen. Magic Duel has two major
influences on the game. First if you have mages with astral skill and
you go into battle versus a nation that has mages using more astral
skill, you will watch all your mages get blown away! This can be quite
a shock if you didn’t know about Magic Duel. If you have astral
skill you must have the most, or stay out of battle. The other effect
of Magic Duel is that it creates a default “Astral King”.
The Astral King is the character in the world with the MOST astral
skill. This mage trumps all other astral mages. Astral skill is also
used for movement spells (see #2). As such once spells have been
researched the Astral King tends to dominate battles since he can
teleport/gateway into conflict with other astral mages and lay down
the law. If you are playing with astral skills (and you do want to)
then you also want to be the best at it, because with Magic Duel in
play there is little room for second best.
4> Ritual Summons
There are a wide variety of magical creatures that mages can summon in
this game via rituals.
Most are very potent and are a great way to get efficiency from your
gem supply. Elemental mages will summon seasonal spirits (Summer
Lions, Winter Wolves, Spring Hawks, and Fall Bears).
They are extremely potent and will be the elite forces of most wise
players armies. In straight up combat these spirits will do very heavy
damage to ordinary troops. Spring Hawks are extra dangerous since they
can fly, and often dive for commanders (routing the commanders
troops). Seasonal spirits do not have morale issues, nor do they get
fatigued.
Death mages will summon a variety of undead from wimpy skeletons to
mighty behemoths.
Nature mages will tend to create Vine Ogres or Lamias. There are other
fearsome summons to be sure, but these are the ones you will see most
often.
Most summoned magical creatures require magic command skill or they
will rout/freeze in battle.
The best way to counter summoned creatures is to kill the mage that is
controlling them. The best way to catch enemy mages is with missile
fire, flyers, or cavalry on the flanks. Sometimes your enemy will make
things difficult for you by screening their mages, using missile
counter measures, or using a pretender god. If you can’t kill
off the enemies that provide magic control then you will have to duke
it out with these toughies. Your own spirits, elementals, and knights,
will fare best in these instances.
5> Battlefield Summons
Mages with elemental magics can summon elementals. Much like seasonal
spirits they have no morale issues and do not fatigue. Many players
cultivate large numbers of capable mages and use them to summon up a
blizzard of elementals during combat. If you have never seen it
happen, you will be shocked when you encounter a group of enemy mages
who grind your army down with a relentless stream of summons. The
most powerful are the air elementals, since they fly into combat this
allows the controlling mages to sit far back on the battlefield.
Furthermore, air elementals are exceptional at running down routing
troops. Death mages will tend to summon masses of low level undead,
and nature mages usually summon wolves (howl).
Much like the ritual creatures, the best counter is to kill the
controlling mages (see comments in #4).
6> Battlefield Domination Spells
After much research is done, many nations and pretenders whip out
combinations of battlefield spells that are simply devastating. We
are not talking about a fireball that blows away a few infantry. We
are talking about spells that consume armies. More often than not this
is a combination of a spell that affects a wide area (or entire
battlefield) and an immunity (natural or created) for your own troops.
Some combinations you will be surprised by eventually are:
Poison Ward - Poison Cloud (weak, but available earlier than
others)
Thunder Ward - Shimmering Fields
Fire Ward/Fend - Fire Storm/Heat from Hell
Winter Ward - Grip of Winter
If your army is unprepared for this, there is a very good chance that
you will be blown away.
7> Storms
Storms is a magical effect from a mage that casts it as a level 3
evocation or by any character carrying a staff of storms. The staff is
popular since it’s effect is on the battlefield right from the
start and does not need casting. Storms cancels all missile fire.
Most flyers cannot fly during a storm, the exceptions being storm
guards, air elementals, spring hawks and storm demons. Missile troops
and flyers are rather popular and the ability to cancel out their
abilities is a huge slam sometimes. Storms is often used to protect
valuable mages who then no longer need to fear arrows or flyers.
What can you do if your enemy is using storms? First stop relying on
archers and flyers. Second use mages in battle. Why not, your enemy is
screening for you. You might try the ethereal crossbow or piercer
(another crossbow) both of which work in a storm. There isn’t
much else you can do, which is why storms are extremely popular.
The same mages that can cast storms also cast summon air elemental.
Here they come now…
8> Army Blasting
There are a few spells that allow mages to hammer armies from the
convenience of their own labs. The beauty of this magical artillery
should be self-evident. The first time you get hit by one of these
effects you are going to sit there and stare at the screen wondering
‘what the heck am I going to do now’? Now that your enemy
has done the research (and it was a lot) he will probably blast an
army of yours every turn. What will you do? Your response will be to
write the offender a nasty letter and pretend like your aren’t
hurting all that bad. Ask your girlfriend to hug you. Tell other
players in the game what’s happening. Perhaps you get an ally
out of other players fear that they are next. Pray that your enemy
only has one caster that can use this spell, and send in multiple
armies. Take him out fast as you are on a slippery slope.
What spells am I talking about?
Murdering winter, Flames from the Sky, and Leprosy.
Leprosy kills slowly but is available early and is the spell you are
most likely to encounter.
Arcoscephale has priests that heal afflictions and Pangaea’s
troops heal naturally, so Leprosy is less problematic for these
nations.
Murdering winter and Flames from the Sky will kill a bunch of troops
instantly, but these spells take a serious amount of research before
becoming available.
There are some “dome” spells that can protect a province
from enemy spells, but since you can’t win by sitting your
armies inside your own provinces, this isn’t really a good
option.
Your best bet is to win the game before this much research is done.
9> Province Blasting
There are a variety of spells that do harm to enemy provinces. There
are two basic types. First we have spells that cause about 20 unrest
and often have a secondary effect. This would be spells such as wolven
winter, baleful star, hurricane, raging hearts, and blight. These
spells are not very impressive with a single casting but can be potent
if used to cripple key provinces. This depends a good deal on the map
being played. Smaller maps with key provinces offer a strong target
for these spells. Large maps offering dozens of rich provinces make
these spells less valuable. If your enemy has a few key provinces then
creating massive unrest can cripple his economy and possibly prevent
production (unrest over 100 stops production). Beyond these spells are
the province smashing spells. These take a dedicated research
commitment but are appropriately devastating. Among these spells are
Black Death, Tidal Wave and Volcanic Eruption. Striking an enemy
province with these will kill very significant amounts of population.
With repetitive castings a good deal of harm can be done to the
targets economy. Once an opponent starts pounding you with these your
only real hope is to win before they cripple you. If you get a chance
you can try to put up some of the ‘Dome’ spells which
prevent enemy castings into your provinces, however these will not
stop all spells and it will be difficult to protect all your big
provinces.
10> Assassination
There are two basic types of assassination. The basic method is to use
an assassin character to strike at enemy characters in his own
province. Assassins are not very dangerous without augmentation, but
with a few magic items they can be potent. Knocking out a key
character at the proper time can be a major development. Sometimes
assassins are frustratingly difficult to use well, and other times
they can make a big difference. Some magic items that make assassins
potent (without going overboard) are: Lifelong Protection Contract,
Skull Talisman, Skullface, Wraith Crown, and the Bag of Wind. All of
these involve bringing in extra flunkies to help in the fight. The
beat way to protect versus assassination is to have troops
‘guard commander’. Raising province defense above 20 will
greatly increase the chance that the assassin will get caught while
‘passing through’. You might try giving a few guards to
mages that cast battle summons spells and put these in the provinces
that you feel are at risk. Often these guarded mages will act as
assassin land mines.
The second method of assassination is by ritual spell. There are a
variety of interesting spells that can be used to zap an enemy
character. You might try, seeking arrow, mind hunt, vengeance of the
dead, and wind ride. To protect yourself from such attacks you may
hide in a province with a ‘Dome’ spell, or wear an amulet
of anti-magic to increase your ability to resist hostile forces.
Ultimately you best recourse is to figure out who is shooting these
spells at you, and remove that nation from the game.
These are the techniques that I have encountered to date that change
everything when they happen.
I hope that you will find this information of use both on offense and
defense.
Please feel free to copy and/or distribute this essay, as there is
little point if it remains unread.
-Alex Poger
Jasper Phillips
[snip]
>1> Super Combatants
[snip]
Definitely one to be aware of. Another point to watch out for
is that while most Combat Gods take time to set up, a few can
start conquest from the very beginning.
>
>2> Instant Magical Movement
>There are three spells that allow players to move characters and
>armies to a location of their choice. These are Cloud Trapeze,
>Teleport, and Gateway.
[snip]
Don't forget Faery Trod. One point worth mentioning is that these
spells only counter is themselves, as you typically can't cast it
offensively twice in a row.
Also, I think stealth may provide some protection, but I'm not sure.
>3> Magic Duel
>Magic Duel is a third level battle evocation. Two mages with astral
>skill ’duel’ and one dies.
[snip]
Definitely true, and as I've said for some time I think this "Astral
King" effect really sucks, as playing anything other than the Astral
King is foolish.
However, I'm pretty sure I have seen a weaker Astral Mage triumph
in a duel -- once.
>4> Ritual Summons
Yep, they're tough. I wish there was a little more variety.
>5> Battlefield Summons
[snip]
>Much like the ritual creatures, the best counter is to kill the
>controlling mages (see comments in #4).
The various "Ward" enchantments can help alot, especially against
the Air Elementals.
>6> Battlefield Domination Spells
>After much research is done, many nations and pretenders whip out
>combinations of battlefield spells that are simply devastating. We
>are not talking about a fireball that blows away a few infantry. We
>are talking about spells that consume armies. More often than not this
>is a combination of a spell that affects a wide area (or entire
>battlefield) and an immunity (natural or created) for your own troops.
>
>Some combinations you will be surprised by eventually are:
> Poison Ward - Poison Cloud (weak, but available earlier than
>others)
> Thunder Ward - Shimmering Fields
> Fire Ward/Fend - Fire Storm/Heat from Hell
> Winter Ward - Grip of Winter
>
>If your army is unprepared for this, there is a very good chance that
>you will be blown away.
This is particularily rough, as it may not be possible for some races
to be prepared for all of these.
>7> Storms
>Storms is a magical effect from a mage that casts it as a level 3
>evocation or by any character carrying a staff of storms.
[snip]
Storm is way to powerfull IMHO. It shouldn't be an absolute effect.
>8> Army Blasting
[snip]
I haven't seen a game on long enough that these dominated yet.
>9> Province Blasting
[snip]
I'm curious to see this done well, as I haven't yet been on the receiving
end. I typically find a I have better things to do with my income, such
as attempting to seize my enemies provinces intact.
>10> Assassination
Fortunately not all opponents have access to assasins, so you can
often predict when you're likely to see them. The "assasination" spells
are annoying, but I've never found them to be truly effective. Recruiting
lots of cheap "decoy" commanders helps alot; Priests are ideal.
-Jasper
Gandalf Parker
news:fda648a3.02032...@posting.google.com:
> The Ten Whammies in Dominions
>
>
> * What is a Whammy?
>
> A Whammy is a technique that is so potent and unexpected that it can
> shift the balance of power all by itself. There are many strategies in
> the game of Dominions that are very potent, yet there are some basics
Im not going to go thru them all right now but jus tin case someone is
lurking and feeling they might not try Dominions because of this I do have
one thing to point out. Isnt it great that we have so many? Alot of
strategic games Ive played turned out to be only fun until a bunch of
people learned the ONE killer strategy. Or maybe two. Only Dominions and
Stars! come to mind as games which actualy offered so many strategys that
they actually tended to cancel each other out in multiplayer games.
Gandalf Parker
Jacques Vidal
Alex Poger <apo...@outland.org> a écrit dans le message :
fda648a3.02032...@posting.google.com...
> The Ten Whammies in Dominions
Thanks for this great post, Alex.
> Super Combatants will have many of the following characteristics;
> Much health, incredible protection, untouchable defense,
> regeneration, trample, flying, immunity to fire/cold/lightning,
> immunity/resistance to missiles, increased resistance to magic, luck,
> etherealness, heat or cold shield, and astral shield.
There's one (or even two) other characteristic Super Combattants can also
make good use of - fear (or its counterpart, awe, although I still have to
test this one - maybe that'll be the Son of the Sun - fire version - saving
grace). Admittely there's only one pretender who can get his fear aura high
enough to use it effectively, namely the (underrated IMO) Prince of Death -
with an Horror Helmet it's not hard to get more than 20+ fear and it's often
enough to rout entire armies once the PoD enters the fray. Eg:
Exemple #3
Prince of Death pretender god (Earth 3, Death 7)
Magic Items: Wraith Sword, Horror Helmet, (whatever armor you need,
Elemental or Rainbow Armors are cheap and adequate), Boots of Quickness,
Amulet of Anti-Magic, Ring of Regeneration
Spells cast upon entering combat: Invulnerability - Soul Vortex (with an
accompanying expendable astral 1 mage casting Body Ethereal and Luck on top
of that).
This one isn't meant to be used alone, he doesn't kill things very fast, and
has a few liabilities - he resists banishment well enough but a pack of
necromancers can hurt him bad, though the Quickness/Wraith
Sword/Regen/Vortex combo works rather well keeping him alive usually -
anyway his fear aura is often decisive to decide the victory when 2 armies
of equal size and power meet, even if there's another Super Combattant in
the opposing side - this one usually can't kill things fast enough before
the fear aura triggers enough routs to decide the day.
OFC vs Ermor or a large army of Seasonal Spirits this doesn't work too well
;-)
Side note: pretenders aren't immune to the fear aura - I ran several Great
Mother/PoD duel testbeds (yes, George, this is for you ;-) and was surprised
to see the Great Mother flee after just a few rounds sometimes.
Regards,
Jacques Vidal
Alex Poger
Sorry, it wasn't there when I posted.
> >1> Super Combatants
> [snip]
>
>
> Definitely one to be aware of. Another point to watch out for
> is that while most Combat Gods take time to set up, a few can
> start conquest from the very beginning.
While there are a few pretenders that are strong in battle right from
the start, I would not call them Super Combatants... until they get
pumped up a bit. The Sphinx seems to be the pretender that is quickest
into the Super category.
> >2> Instant Magical Movement
> >There are three spells that allow players to move characters and
> >armies to a location of their choice. These are Cloud Trapeze,
> >Teleport, and Gateway.
> [snip]
>
> Don't forget Faery Trod. One point worth mentioning is that these
> spells only counter is themselves, as you typically can't cast it
> offensively twice in a row.
Agreed I guess Faery Trod does qualify. However it is much more
difficult to use ofensively.
> >5> Battlefield Summons
> [snip]
> >Much like the ritual creatures, the best counter is to kill the
> >controlling mages (see comments in #4).
>
> The various "Ward" enchantments can help alot, especially against
> the Air Elementals.
Thunder Ward is quite excellent for air elementals (and spring hawks)
since their attacks are electrical. The wolves and lions exude
cold/heat and the wards help versus that, but they still get in their
normal attacks. There isn't an easy solution for the bears.
> >7> Storms
> >Storms is a magical effect from a mage that casts it as a level 3
> >evocation or by any character carrying a staff of storms.
> [snip]
>
> Storm is way to powerfull IMHO. It shouldn't be an absolute effect.
I must agree. My essay was not about balance, it was just about what
is happening in the game. In fact I think the increase in reseacrh
needed to make the staff was a good step, but wasn't enough.
I wouldn't mind a nature spell that caused clear skies as a type of
'counter-storm'.
> >8> Army Blasting
> [snip]
> I haven't seen a game on long enough that these dominated yet.
I have seen both leprosy and murdering winter used.
Leprosy in partucular was used often and for good effect.
It changed the way I think about spell research.
> >9> Province Blasting
> [snip]
> I'm curious to see this done well, as I haven't yet been on the receiving
> end. I typically find a I have better things to do with my income, such
> as attempting to seize my enemies provinces intact.
Mostly this happens in the endgame when research is done and there are
very few players left. At that point overcoming the last opponent(s)
is more important than keeping things intact.
> The "assasination" spells
> are annoying, but I've never found them to be truly effective. Recruiting
> lots of cheap "decoy" commanders helps alot; Priests are ideal.
I have not used them much myself, but have been the victim of them.
:(
I have lost pretenders to vengence of the dead, important commanders
to mind hunt, and mages to seeking arrow. It's very frustrating since
it happens out of the blue and there is little to do in response.
-Alex Poger
Jacques Vidal
> While there are a few pretenders that are strong in battle right from
> the start, I would not call them Super Combatants... until they get
> pumped up a bit. The Sphinx seems to be the pretender that is quickest
> into the Super category.
Nataraja/Arco isn't a "Super" combatant in turn #1, but who else qualifies
so early? OTOH he can start killing indeps from the very beginning, is
res'ed, healed, and fully decked in 3 turns when he dies, and gets stronger
as Construction research progresses. Incidentally he's also one of the best;
if not the best; survivors wrt Vengeance of the Dead - I guess his 2 builtin
magical weapons bypass etherealness. I've seen a Nataraja survive a fight vs
600+ souls, while most Sphinxes and Mothers rout (and therefore die) vs less
than half as many.
And he's dirt cheap to boot. Maybe you could add 'freely expendable' in your
list of 'Super Combatant' characteristics.
>
> Thunder Ward is quite excellent for air elementals (and spring hawks)
> since their attacks are electrical.
But does Thunder Ward help vs the Elemental trampling? One could argue
trampling is a separate form of attack that uses kinetic - rather than
electric - energy, yet it seems Thunder Ward somewhat helps smaller units
not being trampled. Hard to tell from the battle replays.
> The wolves and lions exude
> cold/heat and the wards help versus that, but they still get in their
> normal attacks. There isn't an easy solution for the bears.
But the bears have no elemental attack or side effect IIRC? No need for a
solution to solve a problem that doesn't exist.
> > Storm is way to powerfull IMHO. It shouldn't be an absolute effect.
>
> I must agree.
It seems everyone agrees on this one.
>
> I have lost pretenders to vengence of the dead, important commanders
> to mind hunt, and mages to seeking arrow. It's very frustrating since
> it happens out of the blue and there is little to do in response.
It's very frustrating, yet I like it this way: nothing is never clear cut in
a game because of things like this, you're not even sure it isn't your
faithful ally who tries these things on you - and you can try doing the same
to him, or to others - and your enemies can use this paranoia to shatter
your alliance - etc. This kind of deceptive maneuvers is lacking in most TBS
games and I'm happy to find them in Dominions.
Regards,
Jacques Vidal
Alex Poger
> so early?
I did state "Super Combatants take a commitment in time and
resources."
I don't think any pretenders quailfy on turn one.
There are a variety that are capable of attacking weak provinces or
helping troops in larger provinces right from the get go, but to reach
Super Combatant status requires investment in spell research and/or
magic items.
The Nataraja is one of those that is easily set up as a Super
Combatant, and when under control of Arco, is has the extra benefit of
magical healing from Arco preistesses. I give the Nataraja four thumbs
up! ;)
> And he's dirt cheap to boot. Maybe you could add 'freely expendable' in your
> list of 'Super Combatant' characteristics.
I guess the Lich/immortal types, and anything from Arco would qualify
for that.
> > Thunder Ward is quite excellent for air elementals (and spring hawks)
> > since their attacks are electrical.
>
> But does Thunder Ward help vs the Elemental trampling? One could argue
> trampling is a separate form of attack that uses kinetic - rather than
> electric - energy, yet it seems Thunder Ward somewhat helps smaller units
> not being trampled. Hard to tell from the battle replays.
I have used electrical immunity versus air elementals often, and don't
recall taking damage even while being trampled.
The argument that 'air trampling' is a kinetic attack does have some
merit.
I think the game does not account for it that way, but I'll have to
run some tests before I'd bet on it.
> But the bears have no elemental attack or side effect IIRC? No need for a
> solution to solve a problem that doesn't exist.
The bears create no 'elemental' problem. However if you are facing an
enemy who is using a bunch of them... it may very well be a problem to
solve. ;)
> > I have lost pretenders to vengence of the dead, important commanders
> > to mind hunt, and mages to seeking arrow. It's very frustrating since
> > it happens out of the blue and there is little to do in response.
>
> It's very frustrating, yet I like it this way: nothing is never clear cut in
> a game because of things like this, you're not even sure it isn't your
> faithful ally who tries these things on you - and you can try doing the same
> to him, or to others - and your enemies can use this paranoia to shatter
> your alliance - etc. This kind of deceptive maneuvers is lacking in most TBS
> games and I'm happy to find them in Dominions.
Don't get me wrong, I was just bringing peoples attention to these
issues.
I love the fact that these types of spells are in the game. It's part
of what makes things interesting.
-Alex Poger
Alex Poger
> make good use of - fear
I'm sure there are a bunch of abilities that can be used, I was just
trying to get players an idea of what to expect.
Fear is always useful. I had a horror helmet on my Great Mother
Example. ;)
>(or its counterpart, awe,
Awe is not one of the abilities I have found worthwhile.
If you can find merit in it, let me know.
>namely the (underrated IMO) Prince of Death -
I am a new fan of the Prince.
Just to really stir the pot... the pretenders I find most usable are;
Sphinx, Moloch, Wrym, Virtue, and Prince of Death
However, I must admit that my list of 'the best' changes all the time
as I am (often forcibly) introduced to new strategies and tactics.
-Alex Poger
Jacques Vidal
> If you can find merit in it, let me know.
Recently in a MP game I used Gateway to intercept a lone Arch Theurg with an
'Astral Queen' (Virtue, as per your own definition), and found myself
trapped - the AT graciously succumbed to duel, but the 20-30ish local
militia (x2 for Pythium) he had just raised lasted long enough for 6 of his
Hydras to bypass my Lions, rout my bodyguards and close within melee range.
The Virtue had her Astral Shield up, but I forgot to check the Hydras for
fatigue - so maybe it's her awe that saved her.
On another occasion I sent an unescorted Father Illearth after an AI Golden
Naga - I expected him to trash her and her army, but when he came close to
her he stood idle for a round, before deciding to turn tail and flee - still
in full shape. What could it be, if not the awe aura kicking in?
Hmmm, if Arco hadn't the Nataraja available, I'd be tempted to try the Son
of the Sun, suicide him early to get rid of this annoying astral 1 and avoid
losing him to duel at the worst moment. Just to see what he can do with a
Shield of Gleaming Gold and an Horror Helmet.
> Just to really stir the pot... the pretenders I find most usable are;
> Sphinx, Moloch, Wrym, Virtue, and Prince of Death
Close enough to my fave list (Virtue, PoD, Wyrm, Fountain of Blood).
> However, I must admit that my list of 'the best' changes all the time
> as I am (often forcibly) introduced to new strategies and tactics.
...and that's a good thing ;-)
Regards,
Jacques Vidal
Gandalf Parker
news:a83tq2$ae$1...@news2.isdnet.net:
>
> Alex Poger <apo...@outland.org> a écrit dans le message :
> fda648a3.02032...@posting.google.com...
>> Just to really stir the pot... the pretenders I find most usable are;
>> Sphinx, Moloch, Wrym, Virtue, and Prince of Death
> Close enough to my fave list (Virtue, PoD, Wyrm, Fountain of Blood).
Personally, I havent been impressed with Prince of Death yet. I guess I
need to try him with someone who needs an undead advantage.
Recently Ive been trying to develop strategys around Moloch and the Lord of
Night. The ability to add some pretty kickass flyers to races which have
little in the way of "attack commanders" seemed like a real boost in the
early stages at least when you are trying to take independent provinces.
The hot devils of Moloch seemed great for the hot races except that their
mages were all priests and kept banishing them. Man had longbowmen, other
races already had flyers. I was beginning to get discouraged that there was
no race who could effectively use them. Finally it seemed to come down to
Jotunheim, Arcosphaele, and C'tis. Although with Arcos I seemd to have to
finally take the pretender out himself. Just couldnt seem to get mages with
the right magics. Even 1 flyer attached to an army, set to attack leaders
or mages, was a huge benefit over other early starts. Might have decent
options in late game also, not sure yet. Ive always loved flying gods with
flying troops though as a quick support force in mid-game before gates
start popping up.
Especially C'tis with Lord of Night I now declare to be a combo worth a
second look. Fiend of Darkness have fly and stealth. The empoisoner is a
mage with blood/nature so he can lead them, and he also has stealth. His
leadership of 10 was a waste before becouse C'tis offered no stealth
troops. Now the Empoisoner, Fiends of Night, some stealthy undead which the
empoisoner can summon almost right away, a couple of skull amulets which
they can make from turn 1. Not bad. In fact the only downer was that the
fiends attack by poison. Anyone coming up against C'tis woiuld be
protecting against poison thouigh maybe not flyers. Might be worth trying
with Moloch just for the surprise of hot flyers from C'tis. Might not move
C'tis up the chart any but these are definately strategies IMHO. Maybe
someone can improve them abit.
Gandalf Parker
Jasper Phillips
Gandalf Parker <postmaster@[127.0.0.1]> wrote:
>"Jacques Vidal" <jacque...@hotmail.com.removethis> wrote in
>news:a83tq2$ae$1...@news2.isdnet.net:
>
>>
>> Alex Poger <apo...@outland.org> a écrit dans le message :
>> fda648a3.02032...@posting.google.com...
>>> Just to really stir the pot... the pretenders I find most usable are;
>>> Sphinx, Moloch, Wrym, Virtue, and Prince of Death
>> Close enough to my fave list (Virtue, PoD, Wyrm, Fountain of Blood).
>
>Personally, I havent been impressed with Prince of Death yet. I guess I
>need to try him with someone who needs an undead advantage.
Being able to start off with Fear +20, and fairly easily pump that to +30 is
pretty effective. A whole lot more powerfull than Fear +0; even Fear +10 is
nasty...
>Recently Ive been trying to develop strategys around Moloch and the Lord of
>Night. The ability to add some pretty kickass flyers to races which have
>little in the way of "attack commanders" seemed like a real boost in the
>early stages at least when you are trying to take independent provinces.
I've been having decent success with a Medusa recently, despite the poor
stats and weak dominion. Earth and Nature are a decent combination for a
pretender, flying is great, and the ability to turn most foes into stone
(before they can strike? I'm not sure) will quickly put you at the top
of the Hall of Fame. The poison hair is a fairly nice plus, as it lets
you fairly easily get in a "stack clearing" 3 attack offensively.
[snip: further ideas about Molochs and Night Lords]
Perhaps a Night Lord would be a good candidate for a medium level of
Astral Magic? I believe you could Gateway, then sneak away to hide from
the presumed followup from the "Astral King"...
-Jasper
Stefan Kalgraf
> lurking and feeling they might not try Dominions because of this I do have
> one thing to point out. Isnt it great that we have so many? Alot of
> strategic games Ive played turned out to be only fun until a bunch of
> people learned the ONE killer strategy. Or maybe two. Only Dominions and
> Stars! come to mind as games which actualy offered so many strategys that
> they actually tended to cancel each other out in multiplayer games.
I'd say the sphinx comes pretty close to being killer!
no normal troops can kill it...Sure crossbows can make a fair stab at it,
but body ethereal and luck are easy to get and can cancel them out. Curse is
unreliable (I've tried in practice. sphinx lost half his hps to flaming
arrow crossbows later and not a single affiction. Oh well.) Teleport is
available for action pretty early too. In the meantime it starts with a nice
4 dominion...nasty. definately much better than all 125 point gods. it could
be a viable pick at 200 design points for the power you get. Which is the
power to shut down any player's capital before turn 10 if you work at it.
If nothing else this kind of god should be kept MILES AWAY from the
underwater nations, it's just too silly to be able to use a sphinx without
being vulnerable early on.
By the way...anyone know if ghost grip creates afflictions somehow? Doesn't
say anything in the description but one fight against the sphinx where it
lost about half its hp (that was *without* curse. bah.) gave it 2
afflictions. One death caster cast ghost grip the whole battle.
Adam Ruprecht
> Im not going to go thru them all right now but jus tin case someone is
> lurking and feeling they might not try Dominions because of this I do have
> one thing to point out. Isnt it great that we have so many? Alot of
> strategic games Ive played turned out to be only fun until a bunch of
> people learned the ONE killer strategy. Or maybe two. Only Dominions and
> Stars! come to mind as games which actualy offered so many strategys that
> they actually tended to cancel each other out in multiplayer games.
As a random lurker who hasn't tried out multiplayer Dominions yet,
I'd like to say that having a guide like this available makes me *more*
likely to give it a try. Thanks, Alex.
But could someone please compare the strength of a super combatant
to an Iron Dragon? I'm trying to get some idea of what these are like
when properly build in terms of units I've seen...
Thanks,
Adam
Alex Poger
I like both the Moloch and Lord of Night for their extra summons.
The Devils are very tough and can be used to suck up provinces early
on, however they work much better for nations that have some death or
blood magic so the Moloch can stay home and summon while the other
mages hussle the troops.
Same can be said for the fiends, but they are stealthy as well and
outside of Ctis (as mentioned), they need to be lead by the Lord of
Night in order to use their stealth properly. The Lord with a stack of
fiends is an stunning stealth surprise and is a wonderful way to open
up on someone.
While I find these guys strong they do depend on map size and
conditions. On large maps with long games and plentiful resources, one
extra devil per turn is not a big deal. On small maps with tight
resources, one extra devil can be a significant boost to your overall
army strength. Aspiring nation leaders should keep these factors in
mind.
Oh yes, one other thing, both the Moloch and Lord, when given a stack
of magic items, are competent in battle all by themselves. Not quite
as easy to push into Super Combatant levels as some, but not at all
weak. Not at all.
I must agree with the eariler posters and state (again) that the
Sphinx is still a bit cheap for it's potency. I was very happy to see
the increase from 50 to 100 points, but I feel more is needed. I know
this has been discussed to death on the old forum (now gone), and I
hate beating a dead horse, but it's still worth mentioning.
As for the Prince of Death, I enjoy both the bonus free undead and the
fear factor that he creates in combat. However the reason I like the
POD is that he is the cheapest path to the spell Leprosy for nations
that could not normally cast it. These things combine to make him
worth his cost (IMHO).
-Alex Poger
Jasper Phillips
Alex Poger <apo...@outland.org> wrote:
>Oh yes, one other thing, both the Moloch and Lord, when given a stack
>of magic items, are competent in battle all by themselves. Not quite
>as easy to push into Super Combatant levels as some, but not at all
>weak. Not at all.
Another variation on Combat Pretenders is what they're best at killing.
Masses of Weak troops? Tough Troops? Other Combat Pretenders?
>I must agree with the eariler posters and state (again) that the
>Sphinx is still a bit cheap for it's potency. I was very happy to see
>the increase from 50 to 100 points, but I feel more is needed. I know
>this has been discussed to death on the old forum (now gone), and I
>hate beating a dead horse, but it's still worth mentioning.
I still don't think that increasing the cost is the way to go. What
if Gateway and Teleport were changed so that resulting battles took
place at the same time as other battles, so that you couldn't so easily
pick your target?
That would weaken the Sphinx alot, and IMHO also address a more general
problem. It would also let you coordinate attacks with forces traveling
"on foot", which is IMHO a good thing, and a reasonable trade off for
loosing the "instant strike" ability.
-Jasper
Alex Poger
> Masses of Weak troops? Tough Troops? Other Combat Pretenders?
Most are set-up to handle masses of ordinary troops.
The design would be mostly the same for 'tough' troops, although they
are... 'tougher', and most players try to use their Super Combatants
to slam what they are fairly certain that they can take out.
I have not seen a design made to counter another Super Combatant, I
assume since this is a very special purpose design that would only be
slapped together to handle a specific threat.
> >I must agree with the eariler posters and state (again) that the
> >Sphinx is still a bit cheap for it's potency. I was very happy to see
> >the increase from 50 to 100 points, but I feel more is needed. I know
> >this has been discussed to death on the old forum (now gone), and I
> >hate beating a dead horse, but it's still worth mentioning.
>
> I still don't think that increasing the cost is the way to go. What
> if Gateway and Teleport were changed so that resulting battles took
> place at the same time as other battles, so that you couldn't so easily
> pick your target?
>
> That would weaken the Sphinx alot, and IMHO also address a more general
> problem. It would also let you coordinate attacks with forces traveling
> "on foot", which is IMHO a good thing, and a reasonable trade off for
> loosing the "instant strike" ability.
I wouldn't mind
1- Taking away the sphinxs misc slots.
2- Increasing the cost to move the sphinx (in gems)
3- A change to the timing of magic movement (Jaspers suggestion)
In fact I'd like to see all of these done. (just my opinion)
The potency of instant movement is built in. The additional 'first
strike' that it gives its users is insult to injury. I would submit
that perhaps there should be high level spells that have this effect,
but the current spells should go off during the normal movement phase.
This would weaken the teleporting Super Combatants and gatewaying
armies, but not inappropriatly so, since they still get to move
anywhere they want. On the other hand I can understand why this would
be a programing issue for Illwinter. My suggestion that they increase
the cost of the sphinx is realistic since that is a minor change to
one value and is easily accomplished. As such the odds that they will
make that change is higher than the odds that they will recode the
sequence of events in the game. It's easy to call for all manner of
changes, but I have worked with programmers before and know that you
must keep practical concerns in mind when making requests. That said,
yeah, it would be swell for them to change the timing of magic
movement. ;)
-Alex Poger
Alex Poger
> I'd like to say that having a guide like this available makes me *more*
> likely to give it a try. Thanks, Alex.
Your welcome.
Trying to do my part. :)
> But could someone please compare the strength of a super combatant
> to an Iron Dragon? I'm trying to get some idea of what these are like
> when properly build in terms of units I've seen...
I would count Iron Dragons as low end Super Combatants. They are very
serious, but are missing those few extras that put them into the "Dear
Lord what's happening to my army!" category. The dragons are big,
tough, tramplers. That is a lot of power but they can still be
overwhelmed. Most 'top of the line' Super Combatants use a damage
shield or astral shield in order to allow enemies to harm themselves
as they attack. This expands the dangerousness of the combatant
considerably.
On the other hand once you do the research (and it's a lot) you can
crank them out at a reasonable pace. I would be a bit distressed to
see my enemies in possession of these beasties.
I have yet to see an Iron Dragon in a multi-palyer game.
Most people that use earth just pump out Fall Bears. (and with good
reason)
-Alex Poger
Knight37
>
> BTW, I have not idea how that weird text stuff got into my essay.
> Sorry, it wasn't there when I posted.
It is because you used some non-standard ascii characters for quotes and
such. Use typical keyboard symbols like " or ' and not whatever your word
processor is putting in there instead.
--
Knight37
You must get dizzy with everything revolving around you like that.
Adam Ruprecht
> I would count Iron Dragons as low end Super Combatants. They are very
> serious, but are missing those few extras that put them into the "Dear
> Lord what's happening to my army!" category. The dragons are big,
> tough, tramplers. That is a lot of power but they can still be
> overwhelmed. Most 'top of the line' Super Combatants use a damage
> shield or astral shield in order to allow enemies to harm themselves
> as they attack. This expands the dangerousness of the combatant
> considerably.
Ah, thanks again. I had just decided to try them out in a practice game
against the computer; with all those resources going into research, I got
knocked down to just my home province, but now I have two armies with at
least six Iron dragons that the computer doesn't seem to be able to
touch. :)
Adam
Martin Leslie Leuschen
: The Ten Whammies in Dominions
: 1> Super Combatants
<pines for the days when an earth-9 cyclops was dangerous>
Gotta love the advance of science in these things...
Regards,
martinl
Jasper Phillips
Earth 10 Cyclops were never really dangerous -- too many points for
a few points of protection you can get in other ways, and too
little offensive punch.
Earth 5/6 and something else, perhaps. IMHO Even then Eye Shields make a
Cylops a risky choice, even for Arcoscephale.
-Jasper