CIV: Incite Revolt and Subvert
Jeffrey S. Little
subvert city.
First of all, I have NEVER been given the option of subverting a city, even
when I am at peace with that civ. Do I have to be a particular government type
for this option?
Also, I noticed in my most recent game that at times I am not given the option
of inciting a revolt, even if I am at war with that civ. Can anyone fill me in
on what is going on?
Little Jeff
--
<-------------------------------------------------->
< Jeffrey S. Little Eli Lilly & Co. >
< little_j...@lilly.com Indianapolis, IN >
<-------------------------------------------------->
< I have a brain. I use it. I think for myself >
< and have my own ideas. So, all opinions are >
< strictly my own, not my company's, co-workers', >
< or anyone else's. >
<-------------------------------------------------->
< "I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like my >
< grandfather, not screaming in terror, like his >
< passengers." >
<-------------------------------------------------->
Mark Willoughby
>I'm still a little confused about the diplomat functions of incite revolt and
>subvert city.
>
>First of all, I have NEVER been given the option of subverting a city, even
>when I am at peace with that civ. Do I have to be a particular government type
>for this option?
>
>Also, I noticed in my most recent game that at times I am not given the option
>of inciting a revolt, even if I am at war with that civ. Can anyone fill me in
>on what is going on?
>
>Little Jeff
Speaking for Civ for Win (pity me), the subvert option is never displayed,
you simply subvert cities which you are at peace with by selecting incite
revolt.
I harbour a nagging doubt that you might also need to have established an
embassy with that civ.
Cheers
Mark
Anders Pedersen
In article <1994Mar24...@mcvax4.d48.lilly.com> rz8...@mcvax4.d48.lilly.com (Jeffrey S. Little) writes:
>I'm still a little confused about the diplomat functions of incite revolt and
>subvert city.
Inciting revolt also declares war on the other civ. Subverting doesn't.
>First of all, I have NEVER been given the option of subverting a city, even
>when I am at peace with that civ.Do I have to be a particular government type
>for this option?
Not that I know of.
>Also, I noticed in my most recent game that at times I am not given the option
>of inciting a revolt, even if I am at war with that civ. Can anyone fill me in
>on what is going on?
Perhaps you haven't got enough money. Then the popup just says
"Birmingham will revolt for 1650$" or so.
--Anders.
--
If you have any trouble with this posting, please let me
know. I will fix your problems in the next release.
Comments, suggestions, and bug fixes are welcome.
Anders PEDERSEN
and...@nork.auc.dk
Larry White
>
>of inciting a revolt, even if I am at war with that civ. Can anyone fill me in
>on what is going on?
>
You are not given the option of inciting a revolt when you enter an
enemy civ's *capital* city. Is that what is going on?
Neal Thompson
>>Also, I noticed in my most recent game that at times I am not given the option
>>of inciting a revolt, even if I am at war with that civ. Can anyone fill me in
>>on what is going on?
Note that you can never incite/subvert a capitol city. (that's why there's
nukes!).
-Neal
Milton W. Kuo
> Also, you can only buy off non-capital cities. No buying Washington,
>Peking, Paris, or Berlin. Considering that the cost of revolt is a
>function of distance from capital, the revolt cost would be infinite,
>anyway (or some other unreachable number.)
Actually, it is possible to buy the capital of the enemy. I've
bought capitals and noticed that there was no palace in the city. I
supposed having a palace is what keeps capitals from being subvert-
ed.
Milton W. Kuo
st...@jetson.uh.edu
Amberle S Ferrian
>William Kang (willia...@dscmail.com) wrote:
>What if YOU sell YOUR palace? Then
>since you don't have a capital how much would the city cost? Or how about
>if you use republic and sell your palace. Will you get tons of coruption
>or not have any? Just a thought.
The amount of corruption in a city is directly proportional to its distance
from your capital city. If you sell your palace, corruption for ALL your
cities is set at the maximum distance, which I believe is 32 squares. In
other words, you don't want to sell your palace unless you're under a
democratic government, where corruption is zero. If that's the case, it's
actually an advantage to sell your palace once you launch your starship,
because then it cannot be stopped by an enemy taking your capital.
---
Amberle Ferrian <amb...@epx.cis.umn.edu> | They are one person
Writer/Not Ready For ToonTown Player | They are two alone
in future "Disney Improv Nite" show | They are three together
theme-park walkaround Belle | They are for each other...
and general Sherri Stoner fan/wannabe | --"Helplessly Hoping"
in The Future Disney Cabinet | Crosby, Stills, and Nash
Jeffrey S. Little
Bingo! Thanks for your help!
Perry Jeung
: In article <2n2r5k$n...@hpscit.sc.hp.com>, Perry Jeung <pe...@scd.hp.com> wrote:
: >William Kang (willia...@dscmail.com) wrote:
: >What if YOU sell YOUR palace? Then
: >since you don't have a capital how much would the city cost? Or how about
: >if you use republic and sell your palace. Will you get tons of coruption
: >or not have any? Just a thought.
: The amount of corruption in a city is directly proportional to its distance
: from your capital city. If you sell your palace, corruption for ALL your
^^^^^
ouch =-)
: cities is set at the maximum distance, which I believe is 32 squares. In
: other words, you don't want to sell your palace unless you're under a
: democratic government, where corruption is zero. If that's the case, it's
: actually an advantage to sell your palace once you launch your starship,
: because then it cannot be stopped by an enemy taking your capital.
Never thought about that. Thanx for the help,
Michael Jeung
: ---
: Amberle Ferrian <amb...@epx.cis.umn.edu> | They are one person
: Writer/Not Ready For ToonTown Player | They are two alone
: in future "Disney Improv Nite" show | They are three together
: theme-park walkaround Belle | They are for each other...
: and general Sherri Stoner fan/wannabe | --"Helplessly Hoping"
: in The Future Disney Cabinet | Crosby, Stills, and Nash
--
===================================================================
Perry Jeung | Hewlett-Packard Company
(408) 553-3291 | Santa Clara Division MS 52U/25
pe...@scd.hp.com | 5301 Stevens Creek Blvd.
| Santa Clara, California 95052 USA
===================================================================
Max Behara
>actually an advantage to sell your palace once you launch your starship,
>because then it cannot be stopped by an enemy taking your capital.
As if the computer was smart enough to target your capital once you
launch a spaceship. But it is actually annoying because once you take a
computer civ's capital to wipe out their spaceship they can merrily start
building another which you can't stop because they no longer have a
capital. Grrrr, I hate that!!!
Max Behara
--
"The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it." - John Gilmore
Tommy Petersson Enea - Anders H
So maybe you bought a FORMER capital? It's a common technique to move the
capital to a city in a less precarious situation.
/Tommy P.
William Kang
->sage-ID: <27MAR199...@rosie.uh.edu>
->Newsgroup: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic
->From: st...@rosie.uh.edu (Milton W. Kuo)
->Organization: University of Houston
->In article <1.14413.25...@dscmail.com>,
->willia...@dscmail.com (William Kang) writes...
->> Also, you can only buy off non-capital cities. No buying
->Washington, >Peking, Paris, or Berlin. Considering that the cost of
->revolt is a >function of distance from capital, the revolt cost would
->be infinite, >anyway (or some other unreachable number.)
-> Actually, it is possible to buy the capital of the enemy. I've
->bought capitals and noticed that there was no palace in the city. I
->supposed having a palace is what keeps capitals from being subvert-
->ed.
->Milton W. Kuo
A captured capital city will never have a palace (being destroyed
in the chaos of changing hands), so noticing that there is no palace,
does not mean much. But, I guess if you said you bought a capital, you
bought it.
I still don't think that it is possible to buy the "capital" of an
opposing civ. The option just does not come up. If the capital loses the
palace (the only way I can think of is by someone capturing the city -->
destroying the palace. Or sabotage), is it still the capital?
Actually, I am a little open to the what you are saying. Maybe if
you could describe under what circumstances you were able to buy them.
_____________________________________________________
Will
Willia...@satalink.com
_____________________________________________________
---
þ CmpQwk #UNREGþ UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COPY
Ip_Chi_Ho
1. How the computer compute the price of incite revolt (and sub-vert)?
The price of incite revolt seemed different from civ to civ for the same
size: Mostly I must pay $300-$400 for a 3-population Zulus city; but for
Mongol city, it's much cheaper (around $150) for a 3-population city... Is
the price is related with the type of emeny government, city improvements
inside, or even the nature of the particular civilization?
2. Sometimes when my technology is much advanced to others, a message
for 'people of ABCD admire the propersity of XXXX' and the emeny city ABCD
turns to my city (without any contact before)! How will it happen, and can
I deliberably make it happen (without making war and spend money to get a
city)?
Thanks for your help and enjoy CIV......
Shine on,
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
c.h.ip (ch...@ee.cuhk.hk) Department of Electronic Engineering,
The Chinese University of Hong Kong
Welcome my son,................ | Why do I have to keep reading these
..But you're no body's fool! So | techanical manuals? (Perfect Sense I,
welcome to machine! (PF, 75) | Roger Waters, 1992)
4 not to 3! F.7 <> Year 1! Long lives 4-year-system!!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
BEHNFELDT STEPHEN P
> In article <27MAR199...@rosie.uh.edu>
> st...@rosie.uh.edu (Milton W. Kuo) writes:
>
>> In article <1.14413.25...@dscmail.com>,
>> willia...@dscmail.com (William Kang) writes...
>>
>>> Also, you can only buy off non-capital cities.
>>
>> Actually, it is possible to buy the capital of the enemy. I've
>> bought capitals and noticed that there was no palace in the city. I
>> supposed having a palace is what keeps capitals from being subvert-
>> ed.
>
> So maybe you bought a FORMER capital? It's a common technique to move the
> capital to a city in a less precarious situation.
>
Maybe it wasn't moved. It could have been destroyed by industrial sabo-
tage, or via earthquake, etc, and either rebuilt somewhere else, or more
likely, not (yet) rebuilt.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stephen Behnfeldt | "O Freunde, nicht diese Tone! Sondern lasst
The University at Albany | uns angenehmere anstimmen und freudenvollere!"
sb0...@csc.albany.edu | _Ode an die Freude_, LVB.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dan Edelstein
Having done it the hard way so many times (brute force to overcome entrenched
defenders, often behind city walls), it is definitely a useful technique.
Question: Does the computer take virtually all of your cash when you incite
a revolt vs. a major city (assuming you have lots of cash, and are given the
option of inciting a revolt)? Here's what happened to me:
(1) Playing the "Slimebag" civilization (my cities are Ectoplasm, No Soap,
etc.) I have only four big cities, and can choose to attack either the
French (same continent, to the north of me) or the Romans (different
continent, about 20 squares northwest of my continent).
(2) At first, I attacked the French---they're closer, more convenient to
attack, and Paris owns Bach's Cathedral which I would eventually like
to own for my own precious Slimebags. So I sent a diplomat to Lyons,
with about 2500 coins in the bank. It cost me about 2450 to subvert
Lyons (city size of 8, well developed).
(3) After thinking about it, I decided attacking the Romans probably made
more sense. They're neck 'n' neck with me technologically, ahead of
the French in nearly everything (but not by a heck of a lot), so they
seem like the bigger threat. A tie-breaker is that all four of my
cities trade with Lyons, so I'll lose a lot of income if I own that
City. (I know what some of you are thinking---attack the French
anyway, own the continent--->Hoover Dam would benefit these new
cities .... and you're probably also thinking, why does this guy
have only 4 cities anyway? Oh well, not a great game, but a fun &
exciting one.)
(4) Anyway, by the time my armada arrived in the Roman Empire, I had
amassed over 5000 coins, so I figured I'd have enough left after
inciting a revolt in Brundisium (city size 11, well developed) to
incite some more revolts, bribe some armies, etc. No way. The
cost for inciting the revolt was about 4950 coins.
So in both cases, the computer looked at my till, and demanded everything
except 50 coins. Is this the way it always happens against a big opponent
with big cities---you drain your entire treasury to subvert the first
city? If so, could I have gone to Rome with just 3000 coins and still
incited a revolt in Brundisium?
Yeah, I could replay this a bunch of different ways and find out for
myself, but I suspect a bunch of you out there already know the answer
to my question. Then I can use my CIV time for more interesting pursuits...
Dan E.
Max Behara (beh...@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca) wrote:
: >democratic government, where corruption is zero. If that's the case, it's
Jeffrey S. Little
> Question: Does the computer take virtually all of your cash when you incite
> a revolt vs. a major city (assuming you have lots of cash, and are given the
> option of inciting a revolt)? Here's what happened to me:
>
I don't think the amount required is related to the amount of cash you have.
Many, many times I have gone to a city in hopes of inciting a revolt, only to
find out that my measly 2500 coins was not anywhere close to the 6000 the
citizens of that city required for the revolt. The amount depends mainly on
population, I think, and perhaps the general happiness of the citizens.
Stanley T.H. Chow
>So in both cases, the computer looked at my till, and demanded everything
>except 50 coins. Is this the way it always happens against a big opponent
>with big cities---you drain your entire treasury to subvert the first
>city? If so, could I have gone to Rome with just 3000 coins and still
>incited a revolt in Brundisium?
The computer cheats a lot, but not in this.
The primary factors affecting cost to subvert:
- size
- distance from capital
- happiness
- wealth?
- kind of government?
I have often been present with costs in the many K's for big cities
right next to the captial. On the other hand, city in unrest can be
had for a song. If you want to go on a big time buying spree, take
out the enemy capital first.
>Yeah, I could replay this a bunch of different ways and find out for
>myself, but I suspect a bunch of you out there already know the answer
>to my question. Then I can use my CIV time for more interesting pursuits...
Happy to further the cause of the slimebags.
--
Stanley Chow InterNet: sc...@BNR.CA (613) 763-2831
Bell Northern Research Ltd., PO Box 3511 Station C, Ottawa, Ontario
Me? Represent other people? Don't make them laugh so hard.
Jack Vinson
DE> After reading this thread, I was motivated to incite some revolts last
DE> night. Having done it the hard way so many times (brute force to
DE> overcome entrenched defenders, often behind city walls), it is
DE> definitely a useful technique.
DE> Question: Does the computer take virtually all of your cash when you
DE> incite a revolt vs. a major city (assuming you have lots of cash, and
DE> are given the option of inciting a revolt)? Here's what happened to
DE> me:
[descriptions deleted]
I think you just got lucky here. The price for inciting revolt depends
upon many factors: government type, closeness to the capital, size of the
city, wealth of the nation being attacked, whether the city is happy, city
improvements, etc.
In the situation Dan described, size 8 Lyon (French) cost over 2000 and a
size 11 Brundisium (Russian) cost nearly 5000. These numbers don't seem
completely out of line to me. My guess is that Lyon was near Paris and was
happy. The French were probably well-off. The Russians had probably
changed to Communism, which makes distance from the capital inconsequential
and they ALWAYS have way too much money.
My favorite tack is to wipe out the capital city as soon as possible, so
that the Diploblitz has an easier time of capturing cities. This doesn't
help so much against Communists or Democrats, but they so frequently
change, that it shouldn't be a problem to wait.
Good luck all.
--
Jack Vinson vin...@unagi.cis.upenn.edu
The Purple Puddle Eater and Captain Jack
"Skin ain't got no tailored pockets." - Eat _Sell_Me_a_God_
John Downing
>From: ede...@vcd.hp.com (Dan Edelstein)
>Subject: Re: CIV: Incite Revolt and S
>Date: Wed, 30 Mar 1994 18:03:45 GMT
I think the revolting cost is dependent only on the size of the enemy treasury,
the size of the city, and the distance from the capital. It is certainly NOT
dependent on how much money you have. I often find I don't have enough money,
so I wait around with my diplomat one move away, and when I have enough -- in
we go. If you are lucky, the city might go into civil disorder while you are
waiting, and then you should move right in and get it for half price.
Sometimes the enemy kills the diplomat first. If this is a worry, and you are
only a bit short, it is sometimes worth it to sell city improvents to raise a
bit of cash--if you have barracks, or walls, that you don't really need right
now.
Always go for the cities furthest from the capital, they are cheapest. Also,
the city is not devastated when get it. It comes complete with guardians and
sometimes even a settler. I always try this method unless THEY HAVE A LOT OF
MONEY, and no good defense. 5000 bucks is a lot, too. I usually send in just
one diplomat, sometimes alone on the ship. Much cheaper than an "armada".
Try to sneak up on a remote city.
Michael Lounsbery
>So in both cases, the computer looked at my till, and demanded everything
>except 50 coins. Is this the way it always happens against a big opponent
>with big cities---you drain your entire treasury to subvert the first
>city? If so, could I have gone to Rome with just 3000 coins and still
>incited a revolt in Brundisium?
I don't think this is the case -- you were probably just lucky. I know for
certain that I have frequently tried a revolt, and had the price quoted way
above my means. I think I've seen low prices as well. The price seems to
depend on a number of factors, including some of (distance from the capital
population, happiness, etc.).
I have noticed, however, that when threatening enemy delegations demand
tribute for peace, they do seem to ask for almost all of my money,
regardless of whether I'm broke or loaded. So in this case, if your
strategy is humble enough to pay tribute, I suppose you could manipulate
things by making sure you had little money when they ask.
Michael
BEHNFELDT STEPHEN P
> After reading this thread, I was motivated to incite some revolts last night.
> Having done it the hard way so many times (brute force to overcome entrenched
> defenders, often behind city walls), it is definitely a useful technique.
> Question: Does the computer take virtually all of your cash when you incite
> a revolt vs. a major city (assuming you have lots of cash, and are given the
> option of inciting a revolt)? Here's what happened to me:
[...SUMMARY: 2 attempts to incite a revolt, against completely different
cities, both cost his entire treasury but 50...]
> So in both cases, the computer looked at my till, and demanded everything
> except 50 coins. Is this the way it always happens against a big opponent
> with big cities---you drain your entire treasury to subvert the first
> city?
No, this was just a bemusing coincidence. The cost to subvert/incite
is a standard formula. It factors a number of variables. The only one
I am sure of offhand is the distance of the target city from its
capital. I believe it also considers the city's morale and its size.
As far as your anecdote went (see original post for details), I would
have gone against the French. I hate prosecuting a war (even a
Diplobliz) across a water, especially if "The Threat" is on a
military/technological/industrial par with me. (Just a matter of
opinion, of course.)
Anders Pedersen
>Question: Does the computer take virtually all of your cash when you incite
>a revolt vs. a major city (assuming you have lots of cash, and are given the
>option of inciting a revolt)? Here's what happened to me:
[...]
>So in both cases, the computer looked at my till, and demanded everything
>except 50 coins.
This is a coincidence. According to Rome, p.275, the cost is given by:
Bribe = (Funds / 1000) / (Dist + 3) * City size
Bribe = bribe / 2 if city is in disorder.
Funds = Enemy's treasury.
Dist = Distance from enemy palace.
If no palace, Dist = 32. If barbarian, dist = 16.
William Kang
ong
-> A few questions not on tha FAQ:
->1. How the computer compute the price of incite revolt (and sub-vert)?
->The price of incite revolt seemed different from civ to civ for the
->same size: Mostly I must pay $300-$400 for a 3-population Zulus city;
->but for Mongol city, it's much cheaper (around $150) for a
->3-population city... Is the price is related with the type of emeny
->government, city improvements inside, or even the nature of the
->particular civilization?
The computer uses this formula:
(POP SIZE+other smaller factors, I think) * a DISTANCE FROM CAPITAL
FACTOR. If the city is in Civil Disorder, this is divided by 2.
There are no specific factors for a specific civ, though a civ's
strategy will definitely play a big part in what kinds of cities are
built (perfectionist v. expansionist)
->2. Sometimes when my technology is much advanced to others, a message
->for 'people of ABCD admire the propersity of XXXX' and the emeny city
->ABCD turns to my city (without any contact before)! How will it
->happen, and can I deliberably make it happen (without making war and
->spend money to get a city)?
This event is not directly related to your tech. Sure, tech lets you
build improvements that make people happy, but the main factors in this
are:
the unhappiness of the other city, distance from rest of civ (or
capital), and happiness of your city.
When a city is somewhere on the way of going in to Civil Disorder,
the computer does a check using these factors to see if the city will
defect to your civ. I don't think there is anything you can really do to
MAKE it happen; it's pretty rare and you can spend all you time with
luxuries at 60%.
_____________________________________________________
Will
Willia...@satalink.com
_____________________________________________________
-> Thanks for your help and enjoy CIV......
->Shine on,
->----------------------------------------------------------------------
->----- c.h.ip (ch...@ee.cuhk.hk) Department of Electronic Engineering,
-> The Chinese University of Hong Kong
->Welcome my son,................ | Why do I have to keep reading these
->..But you're no body's fool! So | techanical manuals? (Perfect Sense
->I, welcome to machine! (PF, 75) | Roger Waters, 1992)
-> 4 not to 3! F.7 <> Year 1! Long lives 4-year-system!!
->----------------------------------------------------------------------
->-----
Mike Campbell
> In article <TOMMY.94M...@stdoca16.ericsson.se>
> to...@stdoca16.ericsson.se (Tommy Petersson Enea - Anders H) writes:
> >> In article <1.14413.25...@dscmail.com>,
> >> willia...@dscmail.com (William Kang) writes...
> >> Actually, it is possible to buy the capital of the enemy. I've
> >> bought capitals and noticed that there was no palace in the city. I
> >> supposed having a palace is what keeps capitals from being subvert-
> >> ed.
>
> Maybe it wasn't moved. It could have been destroyed by industrial sabo-
> tage, or via earthquake, etc, and either rebuilt somewhere else, or more
> likely, not (yet) rebuilt.
What defines a capital city is the city where the palace is. Perhaps
the capital may be listed in the embassy report if there is no palace
- but that's possibly where the next palace is being built or some
other computer conivance.
No palace - no capital - can be bought.
Mike Campbell, Christchurch, New Zealand
mi...@aloysius.equinox.gen.nz
Mike Campbell
> So in both cases, the computer looked at my till, and demanded everything
> except 50 coins. Is this the way it always happens against a big opponent
> with big cities---you drain your entire treasury to subvert the first
> city? If so, could I have gone to Rome with just 3000 coins and still
> incited a revolt in Brundisium?
The cost of revolt depends on a lot of things - Govt type (Democratic
civilisations are harder to buy than Despotisms), distance from
capital, happiness of population, development of city, size of city
(not that population is not linearly related to size of city, I forget
the formulae, but each pop level is more than the one before it, so
size 11 is MUCH larger than 8), etc.
Mike Campbell
> 2. Sometimes when my technology is much advanced to others, a message
> for 'people of ABCD admire the propersity of XXXX' and the emeny city ABCD
> turns to my city (without any contact before)! How will it happen, and can
> I deliberably make it happen (without making war and spend money to get a
> city)?
I remember someone posting an answer to this once - vague memory is
that it can happen if happy people = unhappy, so unless you can
control the happiness of foreign sities, no, you can't cause it to
occur in you favour deliberatly.
Peter M|ller Neergaard
[Stuff about revolting city deleted - I cannot remember the excact formula,
but I think to remember it to basicly depend on the city's city (might be
relative to the civilization's size) and the tresaure of the civilization and
then as mentioned divide it by the distance from the capital. ]
>I have noticed, however, that when threatening enemy delegations demand
>tribute for peace, they do seem to ask for almost all of my money,
>regardless of whether I'm broke or loaded. So in this case, if your
>strategy is humble enough to pay tribute, I suppose you could manipulate
>things by making sure you had little money when they ask.
Some part of your guess is right, but bascily it is wrong. What the computer
do is, that is compares how much attacking force you have the continent and
compares this to your amount of attacking force. From this it calulates the
amount to demand (and perhaps to offer) - according to "Rome on 640K" the
formula is quiete complicated. If the demand is bigger than your cash, but
under the double of your cash it rounds down it, so that your able to pay. If
it needs more than twice your money it simply offers your war ("We decided
to rid your ...."). By the way things also get expensive if you have just
sneaked attacked.
According to this the best way to get a good offer must be not only to by
defensive units in the cities, but to make sure also to have some attacking
units (though have never managed to do this for real). But anyway to what
need it is buying peace, most of the times the computer attacks you in a
couple of turns - you are probaply better of buying some military units.
Peter Møller Neergaard (tur...@diku.dk)