Panzer General Prestige Point Cap
William Van Fleet
In a post a few days ago, Ed Martinez quoted the Prima guide as stating,
in essence, that the game has a built-in prestige cap, supposedly to achieve
play balance by preventing you from building up a huge core force, that
works as follows:
"The game looks at the prestige value of your army, which is the total
cost of all the units. It then adds the reward for the completed scenario.
If the total is less than the cap, then you get the full reward. However,
if the total is greater, then you only get the amount of the reward that
will bring the total up to the prestige cap. If the prestige value of your
army is higher than the cap, then you get no reward at all."
I tested this over the weekend by playing through the first three
scenarios of the Blitzkrieg campaign (Madrid Offensive, Ciechanow and
Suomussalmi), and made some interesting discoveries. In the Madrid
Offensive scenario, I first captured the last victory hex on turn 8. At the
time, the total prestige cost/value of my core units (which included 2
Ju-87B's which I had purchased) was 2,220. After deducting the amount of
prestige points I received for capturing the supply point victory hex (160
points), I received a scenario end bonus of 430 points. I then reloaded the
game (I had saved it just before capturing the hex), and waited until the
last turn for a brilliant victory to capture it again. At this point, I had
purchased a Bf-109, which brought my total core force prestige value up to
2,664. In addition, my recon unit had gained a level and been awarded a
leader with liberator ability, and, of course, I used it to capture the
supply/victory hex. After deducting the prestige points I received for
capturing the hex (now 320 points due to a Liberator unit capturing the
hex), my scenario end bonus was only 110 points.
Note that the core army value + scenario end bonus sums were different.
At turn 8 it totaled 2,650, while on turn 12 it amounted to 2,774. Also
note that during turns 9-12, the German player receives 30 prestige points
per turn automatically, for a total of 120 additional prestige points by
turn 12.
In the Ciechanow scenario, I initially took a brilliant victory on turn
10 by destroying the last Polish unit. My total core force prestige value
at the time was 3,872, and I received a scenario end bonus of 150 prestige
points. I reloaded the game and waited until turn 13 (the last turn to take
a brilliant victory) and captured the last supply point victory hex with a
non-Liberator unit. At that juncture, my core force prestige value was
4,784 (due to purchasing an Me-109e and a Ju-87B in the interim), and I
received no prestige points at all as a scenario end bonus.
Understand that in this scenario, the German player automatically
receives 50 prestige points per turn during turns 10-13. Also note that
once again the core army value + scenario end bonus sums were
different--4,022 at turn 10, and 4,784 at turn 13.
Without going into detail, essentially the same results occurred in the
Suomussalmi scenario. That is, I received a small scenario end bonus by
taking a brilliant victory several turns prior to the last turn to do so,
and none at all in taking a brilliant victory on the last turn to do so.
As can be inferred from the Ciechanow and Suomussalmi results, the
difference between the "bonuses" awarded (or not awarded, as the case may
be) for taking a brilliant victory prior to the last turn and taking one on
the last turn in these scenarios was equal to: (the amount of prestige
points automatically awarded each turn prior to the last turn a brilliant
victory can be taken) X (the number of turns remaining to take a brilliant
victory if you achieve that goal prior to the last turn for doing so). In
other words, if (a) the game automatically awards you 50 prestige points per
turn, (b) you take a brilliant victory on turn 10, and (c) the last turn for
taking a brilliant victory is turn 13, then your prestige "bonus" for taking
a brilliant victory on turn 10 is 150 points (50 X 3). Thus, in these
scenarios your scenario end "bonus" for obtaining a brilliant victory prior
to the last turn for doing so is simply the number of prestige points you
would have received anyway if you waited until the last turn to do so.
Hence, you actually receive no scenario end prestige bonus at all.
Only the Madrid Offensive yielded what can be considered a "true"
scenario end bonus. After subtracting 120 points for prestige points I
would have gotten in any event by waiting until turn 12 to achieve a
brilliant victory, the scenario end bonus amounted to 300 points (with a
core force value of 2,220), while by taking a brilliant victory on turn 12
my scenario end bonus was only 110 points (with a core force value of
2,664).
These results lead me to conclude that the prestige bonus cap must be
awfully small since I obviously hit the cap by the second scenario with a
core army prestige value of only 3,872. Translated into hard terms, my core
force at the time consisted of 2 PzIVc's, 1 PzIIId, 2 PSW 232's, 1 15 sFH, 1
Morser (prototype with a 251/1 half-track transport), 2 infantry regiments,
1 pionere regiment, 1 Bf-109, and 2 Ju-87B's. (Parenthetically, I was and
am using Ray Schroder's Panzer General II Ultimate Equipment File 1.2,
available at his website) Now that, IMHO, is not such an overwhelming core
force (either qualitatively or quantitatively) as to warrant a total lack of
a scenario end prestige point bonus to achieve play balance.
As it stands, however, it seems to me that once the prestige point cap
has been hit (which, again, appears to be awfully darn early), it makes
little sense to achieve a brilliant victory if the opportunity presents
itself prior to the last turn you can do so. As pointed out above, there is
no true prestige point difference, and you can use the extra turns for
building up your units' experience points.
If anyone else has further insight on the prestige point cap, I would
greatly appreciate a follow-up post.
--
Regards,
Bill
From ghoulies and ghosties and long-leggety beasties
And things that go bump in the night, Good Lord, deliver us!
~Cornish Prayer
Jeff Vitous
William Van Fleet wrote in message <688og5$l...@snews1.zippo.com>...
> As pointed out above, there is
>no true prestige point difference, and you can use the extra turns for
>building up your units' experience points.
Thanks for taking the time and effort to test this. IMO, I've always found
it to be much more advantageous to build experience if you have the time
rather than play for a hand full of extra prestige. After all, you can't
buy experience in this game, and a few experienced units tend to be of
greater value than many inexperienced.
Jonathan K.
"William Van Fleet" <bvf...@wt.net> wrote:
> If anyone else has further insight on the prestige point cap, I would
>greatly appreciate a follow-up post.
Excellent post. I can only add one half-baked impression.
It seems to me that saving your prestige points during a scenario is a
waste of time once you have the situation in hand and expect no more
major casualties *that you need to replace to be successful*. Of
course, if you have a battered unit, it will be brought up to strength
between scenarios, so the only reason to pour replacements into it is
to fulfil a purpose in the current scenario. My reasoning for the
first sentence is as follows: I finished one of the early scenarios
with about 1400 pp in the bank one time. Ah, I figured, with the
bonus I get for obliterating the enemy with my BV, we are going to get
a massive amount of upgrades and new builds. I didn't even have that
large an army.
Imagine my disgust when I found that between scenarios I had only
about 1400 pp to spend! Wait a minute... wtf happened to my bonus!
Verdammt General Staff! So from then on I started doing all my new
builds *during* a scenario, using the precious points in between for
overstrengthing and upgrades. I always seem to have 400-900 points to
work with at the time--even though I blew every dime I had during the
previous fight.
--
Jonathan K.
Werner Arend
From what was posted about that prestige point cap, I should be able to
reach it fairly quickly if I lose no core units and make a brilliant
victory in every battle. But - that's not what happened to me. I never
met any noticable cap, and with the exception of Ciechanow (IIRC), always
got more than 1000 prestige points awarded, although I never lost a core
unit at all.
My core, at Dunkirk, now consists of 4 Ju87b, 4 Me109e, 1 Me??? prototype,
6 PzIVDs, 3 or 4 150mm Artillery, 2 Psw231, 6 Pioniere, 2 Sig33, maybe I
forgot 1 or 2 units. 2 of the bombers and two of the PzIVDs are
overstrengthened to 13, a few other units to 11.
If I don't see that PP cap, it can be because I didn't get as much prestige
as possible in the first few scenarios, but I pretty much doubt it. I got
over 2000 PP in Spain, IIRC, more than 2500 in Sedan, and somewhat between
900 and 2000 in the others. So, why don't I see the cap?
I also read that some people have 5-6 bombers and 4+ fighters in the Sedan
scenario. If they have any kind of workable ground force, the PP cap must
be a lot higher than suggested elsewhere in this group.
Can it be that sending replacements lowers the PP cap (possible bug)? The
only thing I might do different from others is that I never send
replacements if I can avoid it, because it costs prestige (so says the
manual), and at the end of a battle you get them for free (again, so says
the manual). I'm playing the German version, BTW.
I noticed another kind of strange behaviour, BTW: In the Race to Dunkirk, I
managed a brilliant victory on turn 9, the last possible, thanks to the
weather. I then got about 1100 PP. I only wanted to know if I could do it,
because I'll follow the advice to go to Africa first instead of Windsor by
taking a normal victory.
I then reloaded, captured the last two towns before moving into Dunkirk and
took an ordinary victory. Guess what? I get *more* prestige, about 1300 PP.
Why is that? I can only assume that I have hit the cap, and during the delay,
with 3 additional french units to fight, have suffered minor casualties about
200 PP worth, which lower my total, and so increase the amount of
prestige I am still allowed. No bonus for a brilliant victory, then. Or are
there any other reasons for that...?
Werner
William Van Fleet
Werner, from the tenor of your post I think you're mistaking the
scenario end prestige bonus with the prestige points you pick up from
capturing cities, airfields and victory/supply hexes during the scenario.
On average, you should pick up between 1,000 and 2,500 prestige points
during a scenario depending upon the number of city, airfield and
victory/supply hexes on the particular map (and whether any of your units
have a Liberator leader). That's why you had a larger prestige point total
when you reloaded your Sedan scenario--you captured a couple of extra towns
that gave you prestige points.
My post was directed to the bonus prestige points which should be
awarded at the end of a scenario (in addition to the prestige points already
earned from capturing hexes during the scenario) as a reward for taking a
brilliant victory.
--
Regards,
Bill
From ghoulies and ghosties and long-leggety beasties
And things that go bump in the night, Good Lord, deliver us!
~Cornish Prayer
Werner Arend wrote in message ...
Martin Frankel
William Van Fleet wrote:
> That's why you had a larger prestige point total
> when you reloaded your Sedan scenario--you captured a couple of extra
> towns that gave you prestige points.
While I agree with most of what's been said here, I think there's an
important conclusion that's being missed.
1) You get a prestige bonus at the end of every turn of a scenario.
2) Once past the first few scenarios, you seldom get a significant bonus
for a brilliant victory. (I hope this summarizes your findings, Bill.)
My post was directed to the bonus prestige points which should be
> awarded at the end of a scenario (in addition to the prestige points already
> earned from capturing hexes during the scenario) as a reward for taking a
> brilliant victory.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Bill
>
> From ghoulies and ghosties and long-leggety beasties
> And things that go bump in the night, Good Lord, deliver us!
> ~Cornish Prayer
>
--
Martin Frankel |||| m...@sgi.com |||| (650)933-6191
Martin Frankel
Sorry, I accidentally sent an incomplete post.
Trying again...
William Van Fleet wrote:
> That's why you had a larger prestige point total
> when you reloaded your Sedan scenario--you captured a couple of extra
> towns that gave you prestige points.
While I agree with most of what's been said here, I think there's an
important conclusion that's being missed.
1) You get a prestige bonus at the end of every turn of a scenario.
2) You seldom get a significant bonus for a brilliant victory. (I hope
this summarizes your findings, Bill.)
That explains why several of us have seen that ordinary victories can be
worth considerably more prestige points than brilliant victories.
In some cases it seems like it might be beneficial to take the ordinary
victory instead.
Benefits of brilliant victory...
1) Chance of free prototypes
2) In many cases, different campaign path
3) Pride, medals, etc...
Benefits of ordinary victory...
1) More prestige points
Am I missing anything???
The Braleys
I've been interested to see that people don't save up prestige points. Playing
through the Blitzkrieg campaign, I have found that upgrading units isn't really
very helpful until you hit the Savannah scenario. The only helpful ones (in my
opinion) are to get tanks to PzIVD as soon as possible, and I ditch the little
wheeled recon unit to replace it with the ATV (sorry I don't recall the
designations). By the time I hit Savannah, I had ~6800 prestige points saved
and was able to upgrade _everything_ to the Panthers/Tigers, the 5-range
artillery, etc. Made a whale of a difference for that scenario from the first
few times I tried it! Just my 2 cents...
Scott
Jeff Vitous wrote:
> William Van Fleet wrote in message <688og5$l...@snews1.zippo.com>...
>
> > As pointed out above, there is
> >no true prestige point difference, and you can use the extra turns for
> >building up your units' experience points.
>
> Thanks for taking the time and effort to test this. IMO, I've always found
> it to be much more advantageous to build experience if you have the time
> rather than play for a hand full of extra prestige. After all, you can't
> buy experience in this game, and a few experienced units tend to be of
> greater value than many inexperienced.
--
Remove the *SPAM CONTROL* from the email address to reply...
Stuart Drucker
The Braleys <bra...@jps.net> wrote:
>I've been interested to see that people don't save up prestige points. Playing
>through the Blitzkrieg campaign, I have found that upgrading units isn't really
>very helpful until you hit the Savannah scenario. The only helpful ones (in my
>opinion) are to get tanks to PzIVD as soon as possible, and I ditch the little
>wheeled recon unit to replace it with the ATV (sorry I don't recall the
>designations).
Maybe if you don't overstrengthing anything, and somehow score a
victory in Windsor 1940. Otherwise, I can't see how you could get by
without the FW190 fighter when it becomes available. I would think
you'd want to upgrade those experienced Me-109's). As for infantry, if
you only bought Pionere, I could see how you could get by.
Stuart Drucker
Drucker Analytics
sdru...@pipeline.com
"You stab 'em, we stat em'"
The Braleys
Winning Windsor '40 isn't impossible. I make up for not having FW190s early on by
keeping 4-6 Me109s. Sometimes I'll buy a couple and then reassign them at the end
of the scenario. The russians, for example, don't get many good fighters, so 109s
are quite acceptable. I only overstrength key units (Arty, tanks w/ leaders, TAC).
Stuart Drucker wrote:
--
Ed Martinez
> Winning Windsor '40 isn't impossible.
It's possible to win at least a normal victory. What I'd like to know if
anyone has won a brilliant victory and if so how it was accomplished
without significant loss to ones core units.
Later.
--
Anti-Spam measures in effect- Please remove "_" from address before replying... :)
Ed Martinez "Fortune smiles again,
edma...@home.com On our weary band of knaves.
Welcome, friends, to Ifni's Shore."
(David Brin, 1996)
TOYSTWO
>> Winning Windsor '40 isn't impossible.
edma...@home.com (Ed Martinez) wrote:
>It's possible to win at least a normal victory. What I'd like to know if
>anyone has won a brilliant victory and if so how it was accomplished
>without significant loss to ones core units.
>
>Later.
I acheived a brillant victory with no loss of core units in the Windsor
scenario. Mobile AA units played a big role for me. It allowed me to get the
British air force under control without taking heavy damage to my fighters. I
struck directly north and west from the starting point. The north strike force
needs your best units (and most) as the objectives to the west are easier to
take. Remember that you don't have to destroy all the enemy AA units
particulary the ones surronding the victory hexes on the extreme west of the
map. I hit those cites with one round of artillery fire. Then have a Pz IVD
with a leader that can fire twice take out the defending infantry with two
shots and then a recon unit take the city - all in one turn. I leave the enemy
AA units untouched (they can't retake the cities) and do not use my Stukas for
those objectives.
Don't know if this helps. Let me know if you would like more specific info. I
have not played all the campaigns but of the ones I have played (all of
Blitzkrieg), Windsor is by far the hardest to obtain a brillant victory - other
scenarios almost seem like a cakewalk in comparison.
Regards
Rodney