Caesar 3 Pathfinding is VERY BAD !
JackyO
industries where dependencies exist.
For example, If I have a market near an intersection, and a granary
nearby, the market will almost always say 'looking for source of food.'
Meanwhile, people are starving nearby. The market buyer will often
simply walk along the that leads out of the province, even though not 1
single building is there. What do they think, if they walk far enough
away from my city they will find some buidlings?
The patch should address this- all 'dependency' industries should be
goal oriented. In other words, a market buyer should know EXACTLY where
the granaries are. As it is, I have markets that are completelu
dysfunctional, even with 5 granaries that have food in a large city.
Quite annoying.
I also have a problem with the entire way that pathfinding was
implemented, though I can live with it. I have a bunch of houses a few
squares away from a temple, but, since the pathfinding is so bad at
intersections, the houses never get the religios benefits. This is
ridiculous, seeing that the temple is about 5 squares away. The way it
SHOULD have been done is, in addition the worker doing his pathfinding
gig, each strucure ALSO affects all dwellings within a given radius of
it, whether or not the pathfinder makes it to their dwellings or not.
Obviously, the building type would determing it's radius.
This would have been much less frustrating and much more realistic.
Don't tell me my poor romans are too lazy to walk across a PLAZA
intersection to go to a temple simply because the stupid temple
pathfinder cant follow a path.
tim_k...@my-dejanews.com
JJ...@tennetNOSPAMMERS.com wrote:
> My single biggest problem with Caesar 3 is pathfinding, particularly in
> industries where dependencies exist.
>
Agreed! At the very least, it would make it a little less traumatic early in
the game if walkers would recognize the boundaries of your city and TURN
AROUND when they get there, instead of walking all the way across the map!
And while we're on the subject of a patch: since Impressions has a great
history of doing minor tweaks and updates after a release in response to
player bitching, I have one HUGE request: "Import to X". In other words, let
me set a number after which my city will stop importing expensive goods.
Currently, I find I have to check it often or risk wiping out my year's
profit by stockpiling three years worth of an import . . .
TK
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Nightkick
>My single biggest problem with Caesar 3 is pathfinding, particularly in
>industries where dependencies exist.
Well, all I can say is, you need to learn how to make roads with less
intersections and place your buildings strategically. What I usually do is
instead of creating bunch of crossing roads, I just twist one primary road back
and forth so it covers all the terrain and doesn't have a single intersection
(well 1 or 2 will still be necessary for farming zone etc). That way
prefectures, markets, temples, forums located on both ends of the route as well
as in the middle, will cover 100% of your housing. I found this to be a most
effective way of building town, although it isn't too realistic, but considering
that AI pathfinding RANDOMLY picks a destination on each intersection, having
no crossings at all is the only way to beat it.
Hope that helps..
Regards,
Alex aka Nightkick
Stephen
wrote...
> At the very least, it would make it a little less traumatic early in
> the game if walkers would recognize the boundaries of your city and TURN
> AROUND when they get there, instead of walking all the way across the map!
I've only played this game a little, but I found that I can solve this
particular problem by getting rid of the parts of the main road that lead
out of town. It doesn't seem to have affected trade or immigration.
David Lester
Market Traders looking for food ARE goal oriented, and do indeed go straight
to their nearest source of food. Markets send out 2 types of workers (often
at the same time) so you may be getting confised about their roles; you can
right-click on the workers, and they'll tell you what task they're working
on (seeking or delivering supplies).
The intersection routing is very much a feature, certainly not a bug. We
carefully designed the system so that players can control where the various
people walk by virtue of where they place intersections. Caesar 2 worked on
a radius system, which is significantly less flexible; one of the major
benefits of Caesar 3 is the variety of city designs that can now work,
almsost entirely due to this change.
I do understand your frustration, however; the answer is to try to
understand how the system works, and then work within that. I'm sure you'll
soon find it a benefit rather than a pain!! Remember that each time
buildings send out staff, they will try to head in a different direction (up
to 4 directions) even if their initial route is only left or right.
Hope this helps...
David Lester
Designer
JackyO wrote in message <3618D4...@tennetNOSPAMMERS.com>...
>My single biggest problem with Caesar 3 is pathfinding, particularly in
>industries where dependencies exist.
>
JackyO
>
> Re: Pathfinding
>
> Market Traders looking for food ARE goal oriented, and do indeed go straight
> to their nearest source of food. Markets send out 2 types of workers (often
> at the same time) so you may be getting confised about their roles; you can
> right-click on the workers, and they'll tell you what task they're working
> on (seeking or delivering supplies).
>
> The intersection routing is very much a feature, certainly not a bug. We
> carefully designed the system so that players can control where the various
> people walk by virtue of where they place intersections. Caesar 2 worked on
> a radius system, which is significantly less flexible; one of the major
> benefits of Caesar 3 is the variety of city designs that can now work,
> almsost entirely due to this change.
>
> I do understand your frustration, however; the answer is to try to
> understand how the system works, and then work within that. I'm sure you'll
> soon find it a benefit rather than a pain!! Remember that each time
> buildings send out staff, they will try to head in a different direction (up
> to 4 directions) even if their initial route is only left or right.
>
> Hope this helps...
>
> David Lester
> Designer
>
Thanks for the reply. However, I do think a combination of 'radius' and
wandering plebs would have been the way to go. There are times when a
market trader will almost always bypass a certain block, for whatever
reason, EVEN if the block in question is less than a square or two away.
I end up having dozens of markets simply to insure adequate coverage. It
gets to be very annoying to find that you have an area with EVERY kind
of building there is, simply to have to bulldoze to lay more markets.
Also, if I have things like fruit at a warehouse, will market traders go
there to pick them up ? OR only to granaries for food? In other words,
if a granary is empty, do they try for warehouses?
thanks
David Lester
See me earlier post regarding routes, especially market traders and radius.
It wouldn't work, and I explain why in one of the other posts. (If I'm not
careful, you and me will have this same conversation every other subject
thread!!!! :) )
Market traders will always seek food if they can, though if they have
requests for pottery, furniture, and so on, they will also go to collect
that if there is some at a warehouse.
When you have a busy market with some high level housing that wants lots of
items, you are sure to want to add several markets-- relying on just one for
lots of food, and pottery, furniture, oil, wine and possibly other food
types is sure to overload your poor market workers!!
Market traders never collect food from warehouses; this is key, since you
know that any food you have at a warehouse can be sold. Note that a
warehouse will automatically send its own cart out to take food to a granary
if it sees a granary which is less than half full.
David Lester
Designer
JackyO wrote in message <361B6B...@tennetNOSPAMMERS.com>...
David Short
David Lester wrote in message ...
>When you have a busy market with some high level housing that wants lots of
>items, you are sure to want to add several markets-- relying on just one
for
>lots of food, and pottery, furniture, oil, wine and possibly other food
>types is sure to overload your poor market workers!!
Thank you. Good information.
>Market traders never collect food from warehouses; this is key, since you
>know that any food you have at a warehouse can be sold. Note that a
>warehouse will automatically send its own cart out to take food to a
granary
>if it sees a granary which is less than half full.
hmmmm. Again. Good thing to know.
By my count there are 9 screens that come up before I'm asked to
actually play the game. Any way to bypass them?
dfs
James Dusek
says...
> Re: Pathfinding
>
> The intersection routing is very much a feature, certainly not a bug. We
> carefully designed the system so that players can control where the various
> people walk by virtue of where they place intersections. Caesar 2 worked on
Well, there are bugs in the system, and I have a current saved
game that clearly shows this. Here is a big problem.
House
X
-----------------
| | X Market
| |
The house is about 8 squares away from the market, which has food
as it is only 2 squares away from the granary. The house says it cannot
evolve because it does not have a supply of food from a local market, but
the market is right down the street!
James Dusek
Daniel Terrill
snack on while watching daytime TV!
James Dusek wrote in message ...
Paul Wang
James Dusek <du...@cadsun.corp.mot.com> wrote:
>
> Well, there are bugs in the system, and I have a current saved
>game that clearly shows this. Here is a big problem.
>
> House
> X
> -----------------
> | | X Market
> | |
>
>
> The house is about 8 squares away from the market, which has food
>as it is only 2 squares away from the granary. The house says it cannot
>evolve because it does not have a supply of food from a local market, but
>the market is right down the street!
>
>James Dusek
You can find out what the market wench is doing just by watching her
for a while. First make sure the market really has food by right
clicking on it. Then watch where the wenches are going, make sure
you differentiate between the one that's going out to find food and
the one that goes out to give food to houses. See if the wench that
supplies food ever passes the house in question. Keep in mind
that a single market can only supply so many houses so if there
are lots of houses between the market the the problem house the
wench may have just run out of foo.
--
Paul Wang
paul...@csua.berkeley.edu
David Pipes
>
> In article <O9ZyOAR89GA.224@upnetnews05>, d_r_l...@email.msn.com
> says...
> > Re: Pathfinding
> >
> > The intersection routing is very much a feature, certainly not a bug. We
> > carefully designed the system so that players can control where the various
> > people walk by virtue of where they place intersections. Caesar 2 worked on
>
> game that clearly shows this. Here is a big problem.
>
> House
> X
> -----------------
> | | X Market
> | |
>
> The house is about 8 squares away from the market, which has food
> as it is only 2 squares away from the granary. The house says it cannot
> evolve because it does not have a supply of food from a local market, but
> the market is right down the street!
>
> James Dusek
Oddly enough, this is *documented*. There's a note that states that it is
entirely possible for your city to have enough food and markets and *still*
not feed everyone.
If it's documented, can it be a bug? :-)
--
----------------------------------------
David Pipes
Remove P from return address to reply.
----------------------------------------
Christoph Nahr
Dusek) wrote:
> Well, there are bugs in the system, and I have a current saved
>game that clearly shows this. Here is a big problem.
[snip]
As David Lester would say, it isn't a bug because it's designed that
way <g>. I noticed that suppliers will re-evaluate their direction at
every *street corner*, not only at intersections! When I built a new
facility the usual guy came out looking for workers, went to the first
corner... and turned right back. Avoiding intersections isn't enough,
you have to build absolutely straight roads to get the system to work.
--
Chris Nahr (cnahr@halnet, replace halnet with ibm.net to e-mail me)
Please don't e-mail me if you post! PGP key at wwwkeys.ch.pgp.net
David Lester
Unfortunately, with the different layout quirks of different newsreaders, i
can't make out your diagram. Can you send me the saved game by email,
please? If there are bugs, we'd like to fix them.
David lester
Designer
James Dusek wrote in message ...
>In article <O9ZyOAR89GA.224@upnetnews05>, d_r_l...@email.msn.com
>says...
>> Re: Pathfinding
>>
>> The intersection routing is very much a feature, certainly not a bug. We
>> carefully designed the system so that players can control where the
various
>> people walk by virtue of where they place intersections. Caesar 2 worked
on
>
> Well, there are bugs in the system, and I have a current saved
>game that clearly shows this. Here is a big problem.
>
David Lester
This could be one of those language issues between real (!-- British)
English and American "English". Does the word Intersection always require
four pieces of road (or more)? In English English, we use the word
"junction" and have "T Junctions" (where one road meets another without
crossing it). I had assumed that the word "intersection" in American had the
same meaning.
Whatever!! Certainly whenever there is a possibility that a citizen could
change direction (whether at an intersection or a "T Junction") that citizen
will make a choice. Christopher is absolutely right about that.
Sorry I misled you (if I did).
David Lester
Designer
Christoph Nahr wrote in message <36246ec9...@news3.newscene.com>...
>On Mon, 12 Oct 1998 10:59:55 -0500, du...@cadsun.corp.mot.com (James
>Dusek) wrote:
>
>> Well, there are bugs in the system, and I have a current saved
>>game that clearly shows this. Here is a big problem.
David Pipes
>
> This could be one of those language issues between real (!-- British)
> English and American "English". Does the word Intersection always require
> four pieces of road (or more)? In English English, we use the word
> "junction" and have "T Junctions" (where one road meets another without
> crossing it). I had assumed that the word "intersection" in American had the
> same meaning.
In the US, an intersection is where two roads meet in any configuration - T,
X, +, <, whatever. A junction is where two railroad lines intersect. :-)
> Whatever!! Certainly whenever there is a possibility that a citizen could
> change direction (whether at an intersection or a "T Junction") that citizen
> will make a choice. Christopher is absolutely right about that.
>
> Sorry I misled you (if I did).
>
> David Lester
> Designer
>
> Christoph Nahr wrote in message <36246ec9...@news3.newscene.com>...
> >On Mon, 12 Oct 1998 10:59:55 -0500, du...@cadsun.corp.mot.com (James
> >Dusek) wrote:
> >
> >> Well, there are bugs in the system, and I have a current saved
> >>game that clearly shows this. Here is a big problem.
> >[snip]
> >
> >As David Lester would say, it isn't a bug because it's designed that
> >way <g>. I noticed that suppliers will re-evaluate their direction at
> >every *street corner*, not only at intersections! When I built a new
> >facility the usual guy came out looking for workers, went to the first
> >
> >corner... and turned right back. Avoiding intersections isn't enough,
> >you have to build absolutely straight roads to get the system to work.
> >--
> >Chris Nahr (cnahr@halnet, replace halnet with ibm.net to e-mail me)
> >Please don't e-mail me if you post! PGP key at wwwkeys.ch.pgp.net
--
Neil Fradkin
Christoph Nahr
<d_r_l...@email.msn.com> wrote:
>This could be one of those language issues between real (!-- British)
>English and American "English". Does the word Intersection always require
>four pieces of road (or more)? In English English, we use the word
>"junction" and have "T Junctions" (where one road meets another without
>crossing it). I had assumed that the word "intersection" in American had the
>same meaning.
My, this is complicated. I'll leave it to the native speakers. :-)
>Whatever!! Certainly whenever there is a possibility that a citizen could
>change direction (whether at an intersection or a "T Junction") that citizen
>will make a choice. Christopher is absolutely right about that.
Well, as Neil pointed out I was actually referring to a simple bend in
a road (which is always rectangular due to the grid system, hence my
calling it "corner"). I don't think this is called "intersection" in
any variety of English? :-) I thought I saw a recruiter go down a
road with no junctions or intersections, just one bend; and as the
recruiter approached the bend he turned back instead of following it.
Is this intentional? I'll watch out if it happens again.
S FRANKS
Just to establish conventions so that we all agree. I've done a lot of
driving across the States in my day, and a road Junction in the US is always a
T, while a Intersection are two roads forming a cross. I think we'd best keep
railroad terminology out of the discussion completely....Steve :-)
David Lester
Oh, just a bend?!! No, a bend will most certainly not cause any directional
decision to be taken. What probably happened was that the guy you saw just
happened to have ended his route at that point. Sorry to be confusing!!
David Lester
Designer
Christoph Nahr wrote in message <3623b498...@news3.newscene.com>...
Stephen Strazdus~
>I thought I saw a recruiter go down a
>road with no junctions or intersections, just one bend; and as the
>recruiter approached the bend he turned back instead of following it.
>Is this intentional? I'll watch out if it happens again.
I've definitely seen this. Here is what I had
FFF
FFF---
FFF |
|
F's are the farm I just built. The recruiter came out of the farm,
walked three squares to the east, and turned around and went home. I
assumed It was because he came out trying to go North, but couldn't, so
he went east. He got to the corner and was still trying to go north,
but the closest thing he could find was west. He came back out and went
around the bend like I wanted, so I stopped watching after that.
--
Steve Strazdus sstr...@sedona.ch.intel.com
StrongARM 2 Architecture and Core Design
JackyO
<snip intersection stuff>
WHOA ! This was a purposeful decision, to allow them to change direction
mid interseciton? Now I know why I can have a an 8x 4 area of homes, and
have 3 on each side get goods and the 2 in the middle get none, if there
is a bend in the road there !
David Lester
THERE IS NO CHANGE OF DIRECTION DECISION TAKEN AT A BEND IN A ROAD
The only decisions taken are at intersections. People will turn around,
though, when they reach the end of their route: all these patrolling people
walk for a certain distance and then turn around.
David Lester
Designer
JackyO wrote in message <362512...@tennetNOSPAMMERS.com>...
smr
First off, I must say that your Usenet support of this game has been the
best I've ever seen (even better than that Ph.D guy's JUST KIDDING!!!).
Secondly, I'd like to say that I am loving the hell out of Caesar III. It
is the fist game ever that my girlfriend (who feely admits to hating
computers and has never shown any interest in it before) actually saw me
playing and didn't make me stop. She actually pulled up a chair, quickly
grasped the game mechanics, and started making suggestions. Three hours
flew by before we realized it and she was amazed. She had a blast.
Thanks, man, I've been trying to get her to realize that games can be fun
for five years now.
Any way, would it be possible for you to post the variables or limits
affecting how far each type of walker will go before turning for home?
Are there set criteria or is there a random effect to this? Or do we have
to buy the strat guide? <g> Any help would be appreciated as I'm starting
to wish for SimCity like disaster commands to call down upon those Market
Wenches.
Thanks,
smr
Kedryn
<d_r_l...@email.msn.com> wrote:
>No, sorry, I can't have been quite clear enough:
>
> THERE IS NO CHANGE OF DIRECTION DECISION TAKEN AT A BEND IN A ROAD
>
*lol* Getting a bit stressed there? :)
Sean Lorber
Christoph Nahr wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Oct 1998 10:59:55 -0500, du...@cadsun.corp.mot.com (James
> Dusek) wrote:
>
> > Well, there are bugs in the system, and I have a current saved
> >game that clearly shows this. Here is a big problem.
> [snip]
>
> As David Lester would say, it isn't a bug because it's designed that
> way <g>. I noticed that suppliers will re-evaluate their direction at
> every *street corner*, not only at intersections! When I built a new
> facility the usual guy came out looking for workers, went to the first
>
> corner... and turned right back. Avoiding intersections isn't enough,
> you have to build absolutely straight roads to get the system to work.
David Pipes
Well, I've never heard the term junction used that way; everyone I know says
"T intersection" or "3-way intersection". It's a big country...
I guess it's like soda vs. pop, or grinders/subs/hoagies.
--
----------------------------------------
David Pipes
----------------------------------------
S FRANKS
where two roads cross. A junction is where one road meets another. Like the
ol' fork in the road. If two roads cross, they must each continue past the
point of meeting to have caused a intersection. How's that? :-) Steve
David Pipes
Yes, well, dictionaries *are* useful. I think of them as guides. :-)
ZDBop
I know it's still early, but I only have one more game on my "get list" this
year. RRT2. (Hopefully the ten dollar rebate from EB will get here in time
for the release.)
Entrepreneur, Caesar III, RRT2--the demo--three games that have kept me
occupied for many, many hours. The only game I played as much last year was
PG2. I guess I'm a builder, not a destroyer, and I don't care much for
fantasy/sci fi games, so that limits a lot of my choices. (I did get
SMGettysburg this year and played the hell out of it, but it did come out last
year.) TA got a look, and looked good, but these kind of games simply don't
turn my crank.
My point is three compulsive games in one year made this a damn good year.
Brad Wardell, Phil Steinmeyer, and David Lester. See a pattern here? We've
had the developers of the best games this year actively participating in the
ng. We hope this is the trend.
If developers see that supporting their games will lead to greater
sales--believe me, if it weren't for the ng and the presence of these guys, I
wouldn't have bought two of the three--maybe we can look forward to a great
'99.
Best wishes
Bob
>If developers see that supporting their games will lead to greater
>sales--believe me, if it weren't for the ng and the presence of these
guys, I
>wouldn't have bought two of the three--maybe we can look forward to a
great
Why limit yourself to waiting for only 3?
Gangsters 11/98
Settlers 3 11/98
Fighting Steel 11/98
WW2 Fight/Jane Fighter legends 11/98
Sim City 3k 12/98
Battle of Britain 12/98
Alpha Centauri 12/98
Civ:Call to Power 1/99
Squad Leader 3/99
C&C Tiberian Sun 3/99
Imperialism 2 4/99
Road to Moscow 5/99
AOE2 5/99
Greyhounds of the Sea 5/99
Pacific Tide 6/99
Empire Earth 8/99
ZEPHYR28
Where did ya get this info?
Jeremy Lemieux
TA: Kingdoms
Cavedog simply knows what it's doing...If you aren't waiting for this
and are an RTS fan, you must be lacking a pulse.
Force Commander
LucasArts has shown that they can potentially ruin any game they
choose, so we'll see. However, full 3d terrain, 3d units, and STAR
WARS. May be impressive.
Wartorn
VERY unknown game from Eyst. Fully 3d, camera that is absolutely
mobile, to the point that you can place your camera on the tail of one of
your bombers or infantry if you wish. 20th century warfare, with an
interesting storyline. I just heard about this recently, and it looks
like it could be extremely good... www.wartorn.com, they're accepting
beta applications now. (oops, just opened the floodgates)
Of course, any of these could pull a starcraft and end up being
mediocre (Hey, I still play SC, but by no means do I think it's a great
game). Hope not. There are a LOT of games with potential coming out within
the next 6 months...At least a few of them should turn out to be excellent.
Prink.
Bob <b...@abac.com> wrote:
: Gangsters 11/98
: Settlers 3 11/98
: Fighting Steel 11/98
: WW2 Fight/Jane Fighter legends 11/98
: Sim City 3k 12/98
: Battle of Britain 12/98
: Alpha Centauri 12/98
: Civ:Call to Power 1/99
: Squad Leader 3/99
: C&C Tiberian Sun 3/99
: Imperialism 2 4/99
: Road to Moscow 5/99
: AOE2 5/99
: Greyhounds of the Sea 5/99
: Pacific Tide 6/99
: Empire Earth 8/99
--
Vandibere Hanson/Jeremy Lemieux (vndi...@oitunix.oit.umass.edu)
Two that were one, one that may have at once become the other ...
http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~vndibere
http://www.smartpatrol.net/devopolis/
ZDBop
...only because there haven't BEEN any good turn based games out this year that
caught my attention. I doubt any of these you mentioned will either. Not to
worry, however, since I'll be busy with RRT2 for months. If I ever finish
Caesar III.
Mark Asher
Isn't one of those 37 Civilization games in development coming out
this year?
It's one thing having clones, but when the clones all have the same
name, it's very confusing. Next we'll probably get "Syd Mayer's
Civilisation" or some such nonsense.
Mark Asher
Brad Wardell
Mark Asher wrote in message <3637444c....@news.starnet.net>...
Hey! Watch it!
Brad
---
Brad Wardell
Project Manager: Syd Mayer's Civilisations
:-)
>Mark Asher
David Short
Mark Asher wrote in message <3637444c....@news.starnet.net>...
>On 27 Oct 1998 21:22:10 GMT, zd...@aol.com (ZDBop) wrote:
>
>>>I'd have to add a few more to this, since you're in the realm of RTS...
>>
>>...only because there haven't BEEN any good turn based games out this year
that
>>caught my attention. I doubt any of these you mentioned will either. Not
to
>>worry, however, since I'll be busy with RRT2 for months. If I ever finish
>>Caesar III.
toaw and warlordsIII seem to be the turn based kings.
>Isn't one of those 37 Civilization games in development coming out
>this year?
With the delay it's hard to believe SMAC will come out this year.
Call to Power is due out next year.
The MPS product Test of time is due next year.
The MPS product Ultimate CivII was supposed to be out in
early October. If it's on shelves, I missed it.
dfs
Keith
ra...@spacestar.net
In article <pBTZ1.6720$mP.52...@news.rdc1.ab.wave.home.com>,
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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