HoMM3: What *is* the "gremlin rush" exactly?
kwarlord
Christopher Steven DuBose <cdu...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:380bd47f...@news.mindspring.com...
> I don't understand. What is the "gremlin rush"?
>
> I noticed the 1.2 patch/update where the "gremlin rush" strategy is
eliminated
> by having only the first two heroes per week come with a full set of
monsters.
>
> Is the "gremlin rush" strategy where you hire as many heroes as you want
and
> take the monsters from them and give em to one hero? If so, what's wrong
with
> that? After all, each hero costs 2500 gold. If you hire 8 heroes, that's
> 20,000 gold, and your army will be okay but not immensely powerful, will
it?
> And after spending all that gold on the first day without saving any to
update
> your castle, you're pretty much dead meat aren't you?
>
> Or is it like this.... you hire 8 heroes, spending all 20,000 gold, and
then
> you're immediately powerful enough to take out all your opponents, and you
rush
> over and do so? Is that the problem?
>
> Of course... all the heroes are of different towns, and I think 8
different
> heroes at random are likely to have something like 10-15 different types
of
> monsters, not all of which you could fit into one army of course.
>
> Or is this strategy all about some strange specific quirk with just
gremlins?
> Please enlighten me. Thanks. :)
>
>
>
> truthseeker
it refers to:
two or more Wizards
a Capitol and a City Hall
the Gremlins
a MASTER Gremlin dweling
just picture a LEGION of shooters and you'll get the general idea. ;-)
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Christopher Steven DuBose
Jason
Steven DuBose) wrote:
>I don't understand. What is the "gremlin rush"?
I enjoyed using the gremlin rush, but I'm glad they took it out. It
made the tower too powerful in multi player games. Essentially, the
rush took place like this:
1. First hero. The tower heroes would start with about 50 gremlins.
Way more first level creatures than any other type of hero.
2. Buy your second tower hero. Add another 50 gremlins.
3. Buy the gremlins in the gremlin dwelling. Add 15 or so more.
4. Upgrade to master gremlins. They can now shoot.
5. If you were lucky, a third tower hero would be available. 50 more.
So in the first turn, for about 5000-8000 gold, you had 115-165
gremlins. This is outrageously powerful. You start off taking out
mid-range armies. Especially slow moving stuff. I was fighting
ogres, basilisks even hydras if there were just a few. This when my
opponents had 40 gnolls and 15 lizardmen.
If I'm not mistaken, not only did they disallow more than two heroes
(with armies) this way, they cut back on the number of gremlins with
each hero. Correct me if I'm wrong .
To reply by e-mail, please remove the [5Prime. & .aaaaaa]
Christian Seitz
> I don't understand. What is the "gremlin rush"?
>
Wizards and Alchemist got the most powerfull starting armies money wise.
Think about 50+ germins per hero combine this with the rehire trick and a
leader with diplomacy. This gets ugly with a hill fort and several creature
generators close to your starting position. Stopping 500+ master gremlins
and some other troops is nearly impossible.
Christian Seitz
Jeffery S. Jones
>I don't understand. What is the "gremlin rush"?
A way to build up a very powerful army early in the game, and easily
expand, thus dominating the map. A hero that retreats gets its full
starting creature collection back (pre 1.2), which means you can
repeatedly retreat and thus generate a lot of creatures, needing no
investment in creature dwellings.
>I noticed the 1.2 patch/update where the "gremlin rush" strategy is eliminated
>by having only the first two heroes per week come with a full set of monsters.
>
>Is the "gremlin rush" strategy where you hire as many heroes as you want and
>take the monsters from them and give em to one hero? If so, what's wrong with
>that? After all, each hero costs 2500 gold. If you hire 8 heroes, that's
>20,000 gold, and your army will be okay but not immensely powerful, will it?
>And after spending all that gold on the first day without saving any to update
>your castle, you're pretty much dead meat aren't you?
No, your army will have roughly 400-500 master gremlins, which is
enough to smash the monsters in the area easily. You get resources
faster, and you take gold from chests to fund more purchases.
The way it works is that you hire only one or two heroes initially,
which have GREMLINS, and upgrade them. Put them on one hero, send the
other hero out with one creature, hit a monster stack, and retreat.
Rehire the same hero. With 1.0 game version, this same hero is
rehired with full movement, and full GREMLINS, which you upgrade and
put on hero 2. Repeat, until your army is really tough. If you
select the hero with chain lightning, you can really clean up with
this strategy. The map is a factor, but usually you have a monster
stack you can leave in place within 1 day travel of the home town.
>Or is it like this.... you hire 8 heroes, spending all 20,000 gold, and then
>you're immediately powerful enough to take out all your opponents, and you rush
>over and do so? Is that the problem?
No, 8 heroes alone isn't the problem, as such. Some heroes have
better starting forces than others. This strategy gives you the
effect of getting the best starting forces possible.
>Of course... all the heroes are of different towns, and I think 8 different
>heroes at random are likely to have something like 10-15 different types of
>monsters, not all of which you could fit into one army of course.
>
>Or is this strategy all about some strange specific quirk with just gremlins?
>Please enlighten me. Thanks. :)
Yes, it is about Gremlins. Because the non-upgraded ones are cheap,
heroes start with around 50 of them (fixed in 1.2 patch). You can
afford to upgrade them fairly easily (and amazingly so on maps with
Hill Forts). Upgraded gremlins are decent shooters, unlike most other
level 1/2 creatures which come with heroes. A Necropolis can do a
"Skeleton Rush" with the Skeleton Transormer, but it isn't as
effective. Master Gremlins shoot, and a few hundred of them can take
down most monster stacks in the early game.
All the town needs for this strategy is income, and the upgrade for
Gremlins. A mage's guild is nice, but 1000 Master Gremlins (possible
by week 2) minimizes the need for it. Push your income up, and you
can easily afford to continue this on for a while. By the time you
really need the better creatures, you'll have lots of resources, an
experienced hero, and a very good shooter support for them.
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Truthseel<er
these exquisite 71 lines of text:
:===============:
I think you can do a centaur rush too. Centaur captains are about the most
powerful first level creatures in the game, with 10 hp, 2-3 damage, and a speed
of 9 on grassland, and good attack/defense values for a level 1. Just retreat
and re-hire Rangers and Druids, and you got a lot of centaurs. And a throng of
centaur captains will beat a throng of master gremlins any day!
I do think they should have balanced the number of 1st level creatures you get
better, both from the creature generator and the amount that heroes start with.
For example, you get more centaurs than gnolls, yet centaurs are easily more
powerful than gnolls, especially with their great speed. The number of centaurs
you start with is quite high (though not as high as gremlins, but still, I think
100 centaur captains can take out 150 master gremlins, especially if they wait
on their first turn so that they only take half damage from the missile attack
at extra long range, and then get two turns in a row to get all the way up to
the master gremlins and take them out at melee range.. the centaur captains will
win with minimal casualties! In fact, I just calculated that 100 centaur
captains will beat 150 master gremlins with about 68 centaur captains still
intact, all other things being equal and no spells being cast.)
> All the town needs for this strategy is income, and the upgrade for
>Gremlins. A mage's guild is nice, but 1000 Master Gremlins (possible
>by week 2) minimizes the need for it.
I don't see how you can get a 1000 master gremlins in a week (pre 1.2). You
only have enough money to hire about 10-12 heroes usually for the first week.
Retreating and rehiring a bunch of times would I think give you about 550
gremlins at the most, or 565 if there's a gremlin dwelling nearby. I guess
that's still a lot. But you can do the same with any creature. But I guess you
get a lot more gremlins (around 50) than most other creatures. But they are
very weak shooters, only .75 damage per gremlin at extra long range. Half as
many centaur captains could easily take them out.
The only thing I think they really needed to do was to balance the number of
starting creatures a hero gets a little bit better, or actually, make the master
gremlins a little bit more expensive, like 50 gold instead of 40. Of course,
that would make them as expensive as halflings in HoMM2, and halflings did even
more damage (1-3 damage compared to master gremlin's 1-2). However, a rush with
any first level creature I think may be a little unfair, so I'm glad they took
out that ability with 1.2. :)
>Push your income up, and you
>can easily afford to continue this on for a while. By the time you
>really need the better creatures, you'll have lots of resources, an
>experienced hero, and a very good shooter support for them.
truthseeker
Ozymandias
> I don't understand. What is the "gremlin rush"?
and
> take the monsters from them and give em to one hero? If so, what's wrong
with
> that?
No, the problem was in multiplayer when people hire a hero with lots of
troops and hand the troops to another hero. Then they would attack a nearby
monster stack with first hero and retreat. They could then rehire that hero
and all the troops would be back so he could hand them over again and
repeat. Results in TONS of whatever troops they were...skeletons, gremlins,
basilisks, etc on the first day.
Sebastien Patenaude
> Yes, it is about Gremlins. Because the non-upgraded ones are cheap,
> heroes start with around 50 of them (fixed in 1.2 patch).
It's actually from 50 to 79 Gremlins and that number was not reduced in
the 1.2 patch or the Armageddon's Blade contrary to what had been said
before. So you could possibly have around 150 Master Gremlins just by
having 2 Wizards/Alchemists. I'm pretty glad about the change where
heroes, after the 2 first ones, have only 1 unit. It prevents rushes in
general, not just the Gremlin kind, plus it prevents someone from
constantly hiring heroes to form what I call "instant armies" later in
the game.
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