MOM Paladins are too good
Peter Kuesters
rai...@apxws48.ih.att.com (Rob Buchner) writes:
>So I stuck a stack of paladin units together and started rampaging
>the countryside (oxymoron?) to see what I could do. Quite impressive
>as mostly everything fell by the wayside with little effort. So far
>I've noticed phantom warriors and phantom beasts hold their own
>and I actually have to rely on my sheer numbers to win the combat.
>Why is that? Do I lose my armor bonuses or something? They die easily
As far as I remember, both phantom warriors and beasts have illusory
attack. This skill allows them to completely ignore armor.
>enough, but they also dish out enormous amounts of damage in combat.
>I also resorted to using magic to finally put away the great worms.
>Halfling slingers were also annoying while I closed the distance.
>But the most surprising result was that griffons destroyed my stack!
>Whats so special about griffons? (Perhaps they were enchanted???)
Whats so special about paladins (besides magic immunity)?
1) they have first strike
but they can't use it, the griffons are flying
2) they have armor piercing attack
3) they have holy bonus
Griffons have both first strike and armor piercing attack, too.
Because they are flying, the always get first strike, but the paladins
never do.
If there are as many griffons as paladins, the griffons will probably win.
Does anybody know if first strike is in addition to melee?
The manual says so, but it looks like it is not (V1.2).
>--
>Rob Buchner
>rai...@ihlpf.ih.att.com
Peter Kuesters
Jens B. Fiederer
>So I stuck a stack of paladin units together and started rampaging
>the countryside (oxymoron?) to see what I could do. Quite impressive
>as mostly everything fell by the wayside with little effort. So far
>I've noticed phantom warriors and phantom beasts hold their own
>and I actually have to rely on my sheer numbers to win the combat.
>Why is that? Do I lose my armor bonuses or something? They die easily
>I also resorted to using magic to finally put away the great worms.
>Halfling slingers were also annoying while I closed the distance.
>But the most surprising result was that griffons destroyed my stack!
>Whats so special about griffons? (Perhaps they were enchanted???)
Phantasmal forces have an illusionary attack that ignores armor. Unless
you can take them out in one strike, in which case you take no damage at
all due to your "first strike" capability, they will hit heavy (True Sight
spell protects from this).
Griffons also have "first strike" and "armor piercing", so they are a worthy
opponent for your Paladins. High level halfling slingers might destroy you
before you close....
Jens
Ah Twei
>Has anybody noticed how unbalanced Paladins are? Thier stas don't look that
>impressive, but it seems that I can kill anything from Demon Lords to Great
>Drakes with just about 3 or 4 of them.
>But, the only weakness I have seen them have is against Phantom Warriors.
>Thats it.
however if the computer ever makes a paladin, they're touger than yours.
i need a stack of 9, and killed a nine stack enemy except for it's
paladin which kill about 8 of mine before i got him.
Michael Lewchuk
>In <COSYIB...@primec.com> anon...@primec.com writes:
>>Has anybody noticed how unbalanced Paladins are? Thier stas don't look that
>>impressive, but it seems that I can kill anything from Demon Lords to Great
>>Drakes with just about 3 or 4 of them.
Actually 1 or 2 if you have a War College and Alchemist's Guild. I can take
a stack of 9 and wipe out 9 enemy cities, leaving 1 paladin to guard each
city. Mithril paladins are generally unstoppable except by great wyrms and
great drakes. I have yet to meet a monster which will consistently kill off
a stack of Paladins all by itself, except for Great Wyrms.
>>But, the only weakness I have seen them have is against Phantom Warriors.
Paladins get First Strike against all opponents. Simply make sure you can
attack them, but they cannot attack you. Wait until they come up to you,
then attack them. Your First Strike will wipe them out, leaving nobody
left to attack back when their melee turn comes. Same with Phantom Beasts.
>>Thats it.
>however if the computer ever makes a paladin, they're touger than yours.
<Shrug>. Depends whether they've got Warlord, Alchemist's Guild, and
War College.
>i need a stack of 9, and killed a nine stack enemy except for it's
>paladin which kill about 8 of mine before i got him.
You're kidding. This is downright silly unless your opponent is using some
heavy duty magic spells on his paladin.
Don't let them attack you. Wait 3 squares behind it, then attack it.
First strike gives a *large* advantage to the side using it, so make sure
you're the one attacking. Note: first strike is useless against Pikemen
and Halberdiers, but IS useful against enemy Paladins. Alternate your
units so that once a unit gets damaged, a "fresh" unit attacks, finishing
off the job your damaged unit started. Always move damaged units to the rear
where they can keep out of combat and not get killed.
Michael Lewchuk
lew...@cs.UAlberta.CA
Hank Lee
Age long past, deep in the Blight, ANON...@PRIMEC.COM tormented us with:
AA> Has anybody noticed how unbalanced Paladins are? Thier stas don't look
AA> impressive, but it seems that I can kill anything from Demon Lords to G
AA> Drakes with just about 3 or 4 of them.
Well, they're immune to magic. I think that's their strong suit. I'm now
playing in a game where I mix my group with 3 paladins, 2 elf lords, and 4
elf longbowmen. Those longbowmen are really handy. There are 6 figures each
having 3 bows. That's a total of 18 missile! It's slightly stronger than
the slingers (8 figures, 2 stones each).
AA> But, the only weakness I have seen them have is against Phantom Warrior
I think anything that has illusionary attacks are going to hurt. Unless you
cast True Sight on your Paladins, I'd say Phantom Warriors and Phantom
Beasts are gonna hurt.
--
Hank Lee <hank...@VIDGAME.com>
* RM 1.3 00299 * MONEY TALKS, but all mine ever says is GOODBYE!
Martin Schafer
>Has anybody noticed how unbalanced Paladins are? Thier stas don't look that
>impressive, but it seems that I can kill anything from Demon Lords to Great
>Drakes with just about 3 or 4 of them.
>Thats it.
It seems to me that there may be a bug with Paladins. I think that
their magic immunity is somehow preventing them from taking damage
from the ordinary physical attack of magical creatures. Over and
over again they seem to be completely unharmed by basilisks, sky
drakes, Demon Lords, etc etc that have a hefty "swords" attack as
well as some magical attack.
Martin
Michael Lewchuk
>References: <COSYIB...@primec.com>
>Age long past, deep in the Blight, ANON...@PRIMEC.COM tormented us with:
>AA> Has anybody noticed how unbalanced Paladins are? Thier stas don't look
>AA> impressive, but it seems that I can kill anything from Demon Lords to G
>AA> Drakes with just about 3 or 4 of them.
>Well, they're immune to magic. I think that's their strong suit. I'm now
>playing in a game where I mix my group with 3 paladins, 2 elf lords, and 4
>elf longbowmen. Those longbowmen are really handy. There are 6 figures each
>having 3 bows. That's a total of 18 missile! It's slightly stronger than
>the slingers (8 figures, 2 stones each).
Magic immunity is an *incredible* advantage. It gives immunity to:
spells thrown by enemy wizards
magical ranged attacks
spells cast by enemy heroes
breath weapons, stoning, probably Life Draining, and half a dozen other things.
Note that "breath weapons" means that a sky drake's 20 (25?) breath weapon
attack which usually damages even heroes will have *no* effect on a Paladin.
Also, we add:
armor piercing : unit ignores half of enemy's armor (which means they can
seriously wound even heavily armored units)
First strike : Paladins get to attack before the enemy does, so if they
wipe the enemy out in one shot, they take NO damage.
For those of you with a sadistic streak to satisfy, cast Greater Hero and
summon Roland the Paladin. The guy's abilities range from downright super
to godlike. Torin the Chosen is just as good, although he's not Legendary.
Note: if you want your heroes to be able to survive anything, get them items
with Magic Immunity as fast as possible. A sword giving Magic Immunity and
small bonuses to hit and damage is MUCH better than an ultra-powerful sword
which lets the hero get turned to stone or zapped by lightning from a sky
drake or storm giant.
>AA> But, the only weakness I have seen them have is against Phantom Warrior
>I think anything that has illusionary attacks are going to hurt. Unless you
>cast True Sight on your Paladins, I'd say Phantom Warriors and Phantom
>Beasts are gonna hurt.
You guys aren't playing them properly. First Strike works even against
illusionary creatures. You wipe them out in one shot (Elite Mithril Paladins
will invariably wipe out a group of phantom warriors in one shot) and they
do NO DAMAGE because they must attack AFTER the Paladins. Let them come to
you, and when they're 1 or 2 squares away, ride up to them and wipe them out.
The greatest adantage of a Paladin in melee is First Strike, but to get it
you MUST BE THE ATTACKER. So if your paladins attack, not defend, you're
pretty much invulnerable. The only creature which can really harm them
significantly is a Great Wyrm because it can teleport up to them and
whack them hard.
> Hank Lee <hank...@VIDGAME.com>
Btw, anyone else wish they had edited the diplomacy so that the wizards didn't
get the same lines they did from Master of Orion? I'm tired of being told
that someone's gonna reduce me to cosmic dust. At least they didn't put that
in Colonization. :)
Michael Lewchuk
lew...@cs.UAlberta.CA
Chan Hoong Keong
In article <D31Fz...@nntpa.cb.att.com> rai...@apxws48.ih.att.com writes:
> >Has anybody noticed how unbalanced Paladins are? Thier stas don't look that
> >impressive, but it seems that I can kill anything from Demon Lords to Great
> >Drakes with just about 3 or 4 of them.
> >But, the only weakness I have seen them have is against Phantom Warriors.
> >Thats it.
>
> So I stuck a stack of paladin units together and started rampaging
> the countryside (oxymoron?) to see what I could do. Quite impressive
> as mostly everything fell by the wayside with little effort. So far
> I've noticed phantom warriors and phantom beasts hold their own
> and I actually have to rely on my sheer numbers to win the combat.
> Why is that? Do I lose my armor bonuses or something? They die easily
> enough, but they also dish out enormous amounts of damage in combat.
Cast True Sight (life magic) spell on the paladins. Then they will be
able to see through the illusionary attacks from phantom warriors and
phantom beasts and trash them easily. In my opinions, paladins + life
magic is almost unstoppable! Beware of crack calls and dispel magic
though.
--
Email : hkc...@hkchan.pc.my
BRETT J DE_JESUS
>References: <COSYIB...@primec.com>
>Age long past, deep in the Blight, ANON...@PRIMEC.COM tormented us with:
>AA> Has anybody noticed how unbalanced Paladins are? Thier stas don't look
>AA> impressive, but it seems that I can kill anything from Demon Lords to G
>AA> Drakes with just about 3 or 4 of them.
>Well, they're immune to magic. I think that's their strong suit. I'm now
>playing in a game where I mix my group with 3 paladins, 2 elf lords, and 4
>elf longbowmen. Those longbowmen are really handy. There are 6 figures each
>having 3 bows. That's a total of 18 missile! It's slightly stronger than
>the slingers (8 figures, 2 stones each).
>AA> But, the only weakness I have seen them have is against Phantom Warrior
>I think anything that has illusionary attacks are going to hurt. Unless you
>cast True Sight on your Paladins, I'd say Phantom Warriors and Phantom
>Beasts are gonna hurt.
The way to use Paladins to kill the Phantom Stuff is to make use of their
first strike abilities. I've used High Men Cavalry to take out any
wandering Phantom Warriors, since the Phantoms don't have any shields, they
take all of the hits, and usually die pretty fast.
Just jump in, hit once, and then get out. Or else sit one square away from
two enemy units, so they can move into range, and you can kill them both
without being attacked yourself.
...Brett
Hank Lee
Age long past, deep in the Blight, BRETT J DE_JESUS tormented us with:
BD> The way to use Paladins to kill the Phantom Stuff is to make use of the
BD> first strike abilities. I've used High Men Cavalry to take out any
Good idea. I usually send Paladins to fight with Great Drakes. The bad
thing about that is that Paladins cannot strike at them until it is their
turn to counterstrike. I have yet to try flying paladins.
--
Hank Lee <hank...@VIDGAME.com>
* RM 1.3 00299 * Do Files Get Embarrassed When They Get Unzipped ?
Martin Schafer
>
>Btw, anyone else wish they had edited the diplomacy so that the wizards didn't
>get the same lines they did from Master of Orion? I'm tired of being told
>that someone's gonna reduce me to cosmic dust. At least they didn't put that
>in Colonization. :)
>
I've never seen that message. What I find silly is when I've been at
war with some wizard for ages and he comes up and tells me "I'm warning
you, stay away from my cities." or some other such foolishness.
Which brings up; has anyone seen a computer player sue for peace, ever?
I would think that ought to be part of the diplomatic package.
Martin
Peter VonKleinsmid
: hank...@vidgame.com (Hank Lee) writes:
: >References: <COSYIB...@primec.com>
: >Age long past, deep in the Blight, ANON...@PRIMEC.COM tormented us with:
: >AA> Has anybody noticed how unbalanced Paladins are? Thier stas don't look
: >AA> impressive, but it seems that I can kill anything from Demon Lords to G
: >AA> Drakes with just about 3 or 4 of them.
: >Well, they're immune to magic. I think that's their strong suit. I'm now
: >playing in a game where I mix my group with 3 paladins, 2 elf lords, and 4
: >elf longbowmen. Those longbowmen are really handy. There are 6 figures each
: >having 3 bows. That's a total of 18 missile! It's slightly stronger than
: >the slingers (8 figures, 2 stones each).
: Magic immunity is an *incredible* advantage. It gives immunity to:
: spells thrown by enemy wizards
: magical ranged attacks
: spells cast by enemy heroes
: breath weapons, stoning, probably Life Draining, and half a dozen other things.
: Note that "breath weapons" means that a sky drake's 20 (25?) breath weapon
: attack which usually damages even heroes will have *no* effect on a Paladin.
(etc... snip)
Well yes. Astute RPG players might have mentioned to the designer of MoM
that one logical way to balance magic immunity is the natural side-effect
that the subjects can't use beneficial magic, as well. (Sigh)
PvK
Jeff J. Bilicki
: References: <D3A14...@news.cis.umn.edu>
: --
: Hank Lee <hank...@VIDGAME.com>
Wouldn't work anyways it seems that the flight spell doesn't let creatures
attack flying... ...it suxs.
Jefferson W Rosenbury -- CBC
: >References: <COSYIB...@primec.com>
: >Well, they're immune to magic. I think that's their strong suit. I'm now
: >playing in a game where I mix my group with 3 paladins, 2 elf lords, and 4
: >elf longbowmen. Those longbowmen are really handy. There are 6 figures each
: >having 3 bows. That's a total of 18 missile! It's slightly stronger than
: >the slingers (8 figures, 2 stones each).
Maybe I'm missing something here; I build almost exclusively slingers
with adamantine weapons. Once they are super elites, they have six bullets.
They can one-shot almost any other creature from long range. Not much
challenge playing the halflings though. (Air elementals can be a pain.) .
I've had an eleven stone slinger just for fun. With 88 attack points
and +3 (60%) to hit, there isn't really anything that can take a hit. He
could also go slumming and kill great drakes in hand to hand.
I do only start with three spell books, but who needs spells anyway?
Jeff.
John
I use one of them to crush most enemies. They also dont need food or gold,
just some mana, and they also have a chance of turning defeated enemies to
undead, which don't need food, gold, or mana! After awhile I have only
undead units defending cities, and save tons of gold and food! Its
especially useful if you cast Zombie Mastery. The only thing wrong is
now there is no challenge :(. but hey it was fun.
-John
Chan Hoong Keong
> Maybe I'm missing something here; I build almost exclusively slingers
> with adamantine weapons. Once they are super elites, they have six bullets.
> They can one-shot almost any other creature from long range. Not much
> challenge playing the halflings though. (Air elementals can be a pain.) .
> I've had an eleven stone slinger just for fun. With 88 attack points
> and +3 (60%) to hit, there isn't really anything that can take a hit. He
> could also go slumming and kill great drakes in hand to hand.
Are you playing ver 1.2? In that version, units with missile immunity
cannot be harmed by missile at all.
--
Email : hkc...@hkchan.pc.my
Thomas Stockheim
Agreed, death knights are really strong, but hard to get. The only problem
they have is fighting nodes - they look really bad against drakes !
Try casting magic immunity on them - should make them really invincible !
( Is it possible to get both spells by research ?)
Thomas