Who invented Dwarves & Elves?
Zerthimon
entire Fantasy setting bit? (ie Treasure-hoarding Dragons, evil Orcs,
magical rings, romanticizing a party's Thief & differentiating him from
plain robbers, etc.)
The earliest work that I know of is J.R.R. Tolkien. I know he invented
the race of Hobbits, which AD&D bastarsized into so-called "halflings."
However, I don't know how much of Tolkien's work is derived from
previous authors. Somehow, I doubt he created dwarves & elves...
Holly E. Ordway
You're right when you hit on Tolkien as a major influence in fantasy -- The
Lord of the Rings (and The Hobbit, to a lesser degree) really popularized
the "epic" fantasy with dwarves, elves, etc.
Tolkien didn't precisely *invent* dwarves and elves -- they came from
folklore -- but he *did* create very original versions of these races that
have then been highly influential. Tolkien's elves are quite different from
their folklore parents, but oh boy, the elves of countless later fantasy
novels sure do look a lot like Tolkien's elves!
Tolkien was not influenced by many contemporary authors; most of his
influences came from much earlier works. Tolkien was a medieval scholar and
was *very* familiar with folklore, legends, and mythology. His sources for
LotR came from the Nibelungenlied, the Norse Eddas, Beowulf, the Arthurian
legends, and other western European folklore and legends. Elves were part
of English folklore for a long time before fantasy was written down.
Dwarves were a major part of Germanic folklore. Dragons were a part of many
different legends, including St. George and the dragon and (IIRC) the
Siegfried story, as well as Beowulf -- the Beowulf dragon is even a
treasure-hoarder just like Smaug. The magic ring has a counterpart in the
Nibelungenlied, though its powers are quite different; Tolkien's One Ring
is quite distinctive. "Magical items" in general are pretty common in
legends; you've got Excalibur, for instance, in the Arthurian story. Orcs
are completely Tolkien's invention, but, like the goblins, have ancestors
in the evil underground spirits of Germanic and British folklore.
One major fantasy author pre-Tolkien is William Morris, who wrote fantasy
novels in the late 1800s. In fact, they're really the first true "fantasy
novels" -- *very* different from what's written now, but quite interesting
if you get into the right mindset. Morris really started off the idea of an
independent "fantasy world" that has its own reality -- before him, most
fantasies were set (at least in some degree) in the "real world". Morris'
novels have magic, quests, kings, knights, etc.; a lot of the ingredients
you'll find in later fantasy novels.
Well, I could go on at greater length, but I'll just close by saying that
if you're interested in the roots of fantasy, definitely take a look at
European legends and folklore. It's interesting stuff, and it's interesting
to see how a great author like Tolkien pulled together different strands,
plus his own invention, to make such an influential fantasy novel.
--Holly
Alexx S Kay
>zert...@yahoo.com (Zerthimon) wrote in <38D2C47D...@yahoo.com>:
>>Who invented the concept of Dwarves, Elves, Spell Books, and/or the
>>entire Fantasy setting bit? (ie Treasure-hoarding Dragons, evil Orcs,
>>magical rings, romanticizing a party's Thief & differentiating him from
>>plain robbers, etc.)
>>
>>The earliest work that I know of is J.R.R. Tolkien. I know he invented
[snip]
>You're right when you hit on Tolkien as a major influence in fantasy -- The
>Lord of the Rings (and The Hobbit, to a lesser degree) really popularized
>the "epic" fantasy with dwarves, elves, etc.
[lots of good JRRT observations deleted]
> Orcs
>are completely Tolkien's invention, but, like the goblins, have ancestors
>in the evil underground spirits of Germanic and British folklore.
Well, "orc" (or etymological relatives) does appear widely in medieval
literature as a sort of generic descriptor for "monster" or "goblin".
If you mean that, like his elves, Tolkien's orcs are distinctively his
own, I'd agree; just wanted to point out that it's not an invented word.
>One major fantasy author pre-Tolkien is William Morris, who wrote fantasy
>novels in the late 1800s. In fact, they're really the first true "fantasy
>novels" -- *very* different from what's written now, but quite interesting
>if you get into the right mindset. Morris really started off the idea of an
>independent "fantasy world" that has its own reality -- before him, most
>fantasies were set (at least in some degree) in the "real world". Morris'
>novels have magic, quests, kings, knights, etc.; a lot of the ingredients
>you'll find in later fantasy novels.
I don't agree with this at all. Maybe you could talk me into "first
*modern* fantasy novels", but the form is pretty much as old as fiction.
Even the contemporaries knew that their myths and legends didn't take
place in the same sort of place as "the real world".
>Well, I could go on at greater length, but I'll just close by saying that
>if you're interested in the roots of fantasy, definitely take a look at
>European legends and folklore. It's interesting stuff, and it's interesting
>to see how a great author like Tolkien pulled together different strands,
>plus his own invention, to make such an influential fantasy novel.
This sentiment I *heartily* agree with! It can also be interesting to see
where less great authors (I'm thinking Gary Gygax here) got their material.
Every so often, I'll run across the historical/fictional basis for some
outlandish D&D thing that I was sure he invented out of whole cloth, and it
always surprises me :-)
Alexx Kay
Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers
al...@world.std.com
http://world.std.com/~alexx
"One machine can do the work of fifty ordinary men. No machine can
do the work of one extraordinary man." -- Elbert Hubbard
Joel Mathis
>Who invented the concept of Dwarves, Elves, Spell Books, and/or the
>entire Fantasy setting bit? (ie Treasure-hoarding Dragons, evil Orcs,
>magical rings, romanticizing a party's Thief & differentiating him from
>plain robbers, etc.)
>
>The earliest work that I know of is J.R.R. Tolkien. I know he invented
>the race of Hobbits, which AD&D bastarsized into so-called "halflings."
>However, I don't know how much of Tolkien's work is derived from
>previous authors. Somehow, I doubt he created dwarves & elves...
All of it, pretty much, but Tolkien was a smart guy. He basically
compiled the mythology of Europe (dwarves from Norse legends, the Ents
are his take on Giants, Elves from both Norse and Celtic traditions,
orcs from goblins) and built his own mythology out of those building
blocks from the ground up. So while Tolkien may have based his work
on existing stuff, he put his own spin on things which is far more
than you can say for most of his followers.
So Tolkien popularized it, but it took AD&D to kill it. Early
versions of AD&D refer to halflings (which Tolkien called Hobbits as
well at several points) as hobbits. A lawsuit from the Tolkien estate
put a stop to that which is why you see all the refrences to halflings
in the fantasy games. That didn't stop AD&D from taking enough
concepts from Tolkien to establish the traditional concept of the RPG
(I say taking because they were actively trying to copy Tolkien).
And why the heck is this in .strategic?
Joel Mathis
See the Hot Sheet at Gone Gold for my take on the day's news
http://www.gonegold.com/hot
STEAMFAX
>well at several points) as hobbits. A lawsuit from the Tolkien estate
>put a stop to that which is why you see all the refrences to halflings
>in the fantasy games. That didn't stop AD&D from taking enough
>concepts from Tolkien to establish the traditional concept of the RPG
>(I say taking because they were actively trying to copy Tolkien).
>
>And why the heck is this in .strategic?
We got this age of wonders that has captured the imagination and lives of many
gamers here plus homm so on and so forth.
It took AD&D to take the Tolkien concept somewhere, true they ripped off it of
lots (Starting with the Chainmail rules anybody remember that, I have a copy
somewhere), but tolkien estates was frozen in time. Cripes the guy is dead and
customers can only go so far re-reading the Lord of the rings and the Hobbit
plus his other parts of his manuscripts retreived from his wastebasket or
conceptual notebook.
"Chainmail" for those who don't know, was a booklet of medieval combat rules
for miniture tabletop figures. I used to order all that stuff from various mail
order firms in the country and even got a real nice HO scale castle from
Germany in the early 70's. In the back of chaimail booklet was fantasy stats
for various fantastic and mythological figures, much of which was the orcs
elves and hobbits out of Tolkien.
Tabletop gamers wanted to add that to their medieval battles and so rules for
the powers of these figures were included. Heroes were added plus powers for
them.
Its not clear to me exactly what the next evolution to rpg and searching
dungeons out of that, but there it was. Then came the novels and what the
probably the Tolkien Estates attention. But they wern't doing anything except
sitting on their fat asses republishing tolkien stuff, some calandars and
protecting the concept like Microsoft or somebody boring customers to death. In
fairness, they finally did license something out to some kind of Middle Earth
RPG, but it did not seem to go anywhere. Meanwhile, some of those AD&D novels
are quite interesting and I have quite a few of them.
In conclusion, AOW seems to be part of these copycats with their elves, orcs
and tolkienlike halflings, but they have infused new life into the genere with
a their twist and I'm not complaining.
Rich Goranson
>compiled the mythology of Europe (dwarves from Norse legends, the Ents
>are his take on Giants, Elves from both Norse and Celtic traditions,
>orcs from goblins) and built his own mythology out of those building
>blocks from the ground up.
What's amazing is that he did this pretty much from a hospital bed after being
mustard gassed by the Germans in WWI. Much of his library when he was forming
the Silmarillion in 1915-1916 was in his own brain. Very clever fellow.
Rich Goranson (Lord Stephan Calvert deGrey)
Buffalo, NY (Barony of the Rhydderich Hael, Æthelmearc)
Diplomacy addict, F&E guru, Expos fan and medieval re-creationist
"I could have conquered Europe, all of it, but I had women in my life." - Henry
II
L.J. Wischik
>Who invented the concept of Dwarves, Elves, Spell Books, and/or the
The old Norse believed that Dwarves lived underground and fashioned
magical instruments. (AD 500-1000?)
Celtic mythology had "faery folk", which have more in common with D&D
elves than with modern-day fairies. And in Celtic mythology, these faery
folk were sometimes cruel and noble and didn't care much for the passions
or cares of humans. Also, just like Tolkein's elves, the Celtic faeries
were all forced to leave the world with the advent of iron.
Given that Tolkein taught Norse and Celtic, it's fair to say that both
these things influenced him...
--
Lucian Wischik, Queens' College, Cambridge CB3 9ET. www.wischik.com/lu
L.J. Wischik
>I don't agree with this at all. Maybe you could talk me into "first
>*modern* fantasy novels", but the form is pretty much as old as fiction.
Unlikely, since the 'novel' form only started around the end of the 18th
century... (but I agree that fantasy fiction is probably as old as
fiction)
L.J. Wischik
>Celtic mythology had "faery folk", which have more in common with D&D
>elves than with modern-day fairies. And in Celtic mythology, these faery
Celtic mythology was certainly around by AD 1, and (I think) covered most
of western europe already by BC 1000
Krud
news:38D2C47D...@yahoo.com...
> Who invented the concept of Dwarves, Elves, Spell Books, and/or the
> magical rings, romanticizing a party's Thief & differentiating him from
> plain robbers, etc.)
>
> The earliest work that I know of is J.R.R. Tolkien. I know he invented
> the race of Hobbits, which AD&D bastarsized into so-called "halflings."
> However, I don't know how much of Tolkien's work is derived from
> previous authors. Somehow, I doubt he created dwarves & elves...
The word "Dwarf" is derived from the ancient Norse word meaning "little
people who can be thrown". Drunken Viking warriors would throw the little
people around for fun, and it eventually developed into the national sport
of Canada.
The word "Elf" is derived from the ancient Chinese word meaning "someone
who's head was caught in a rice picking machine". Hence the large, pointy
ears that elves are known for having (I saw that on Star Trek once).
-Professor Krudmeister, PhDN
L'Empereur
Drunken Viking warriors would throw the little
> people around for fun, and it eventually developed into the national sport
> of Canada.
>
<g>
naps
Holly E. Ordway
>holly-...@home.com.xxx (Holly E. Ordway) writes:
>> Orcs
>>are completely Tolkien's invention, but, like the goblins, have ancestors
>>in the evil underground spirits of Germanic and British folklore.
>
>Well, "orc" (or etymological relatives) does appear widely in medieval
>literature as a sort of generic descriptor for "monster" or "goblin".
>If you mean that, like his elves, Tolkien's orcs are distinctively his
>own, I'd agree; just wanted to point out that it's not an invented word.
Good point. As you guessed, I was thinking about the concept and forgot
about the origin of the name. Tolkien really made good choices with his
names, didn't he? "Orc" just fits the creatures so well ;) (And to talk
about influence... how many fantasy novels/computer games are there with
evil overlords named "Saur-" something? You'd think that parents in the
fantasy world would realize that naming their kid "Sauron", "Necro-
something", or "Mordred" is dooming him to a life as an evil monster :)
>>Morris really started off the idea of an
>>independent "fantasy world" that has its own reality -- before him, most
>>fantasies were set (at least in some degree) in the "real world".
>
>I don't agree with this at all. Maybe you could talk me into "first
>*modern* fantasy novels", but the form is pretty much as old as fiction.
>Even the contemporaries knew that their myths and legends didn't take
>place in the same sort of place as "the real world".
Yes, "first modern fantasy novels" is a more accurate (if longer) way of
describing Morris' novels. The thing is (as another poster pointed out),
the *novel* -- very loosely defined as a lengthy prose narrative -- didn't
develop in English-language fiction until the late 1700s. Before that,
there's plenty of fantasy in epic poems, tales, etc., but the form is
different.
And, most of it *is* nominally set in the "real world," the same way that
modern "technothrillers" are set in the real world -- you have some
elements that aren't real, but the rest of the story and setting *is* real.
Look at Homer's Odyssey, where he can have all sorts of weird things
happening once his hero travels beyond the well-charted areas on the map...
Or the Arthurian stories, where Merlin and company are having their
adventures in England and France. (In one version, Merlin is responsible
for setting up Stonehenge).
Once the novel form gets started, realism holds the day until the gothic
novel shows up (with Horace Walpole's The Castle of Otranto; you know, they
could probably make a good game based on that book). When we hit Victorian
times, we get Alice in Wonderland, The Water Babies, and George MacDonald's
novels (Phantastes and Lilith) that are more truly fantasy. They're not
*quite* the same as what comes later, though -- one thing that holds true
in all of them is that the character(s) start out in and return to the
"real world".
Morris introduces the idea of an *independent* "secondary world" -- it
isn't some uncharted territory in the real world, or a dream, or a
dimension next door. It's completely separate from our world, and all the
fantastic events that happen in it, happen because that's what's natural
for *that* world. That's the sort of thing that you don't see in earlier
fantasies. Combine that with the fact that Morris is really the first to
write *long* prose fantasies (with a coherent plot, not just related
anecdotes; The Arabian Nights isn't a novel), and I think there's a good
argument for calling him the first author of the modern fantasy novel. His
choices (the quasi-medieval setting, for instance) really had a lot of
influence on what came later, through Tolkien and D&D and into all those
computer games with heroes going on quests to save the kingdom...
--Holly
ScottZf
Follow-ups set, even though I don't read that group.
On Sat, 18 Mar 2000 12:45:47 GMT, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,
au...@home.com (Krud) decided to post
<%TKA4.15033$E85.3...@news1.rdc1.md.home.com>:
>Zerthimon <zert...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:38D2C47D...@yahoo.com...
>> Who invented the concept of Dwarves, Elves, Spell Books, and/or
>> the entire Fantasy setting bit? (ie Treasure-hoarding Dragons,
>> evil Orcs, magical rings, romanticizing a party's Thief &
>> differentiating him from plain robbers, etc.)
>>
>> The earliest work that I know of is J.R.R. Tolkien. I know he
>> invented the race of Hobbits, which AD&D bastarsized into
>> so-called "halflings." However, I don't know how much of Tolkien's
>> work is derived from previous authors. Somehow, I doubt he
>> created dwarves & elves...
>
>The word "Dwarf" is derived from the ancient Norse word meaning
>"little people who can be thrown". Drunken Viking warriors would
>throw the little people around for fun, and it eventually developed
>into the national sport of Canada.
>
>The word "Elf" is derived from the ancient Chinese word meaning
>"someone who's head was caught in a rice picking machine". Hence
>the large, pointy ears that elves are known for having (I saw that
>on Star Trek once).
>
>-Professor Krudmeister, PhDN
>
>
--
ScottZf
RTS shows his true opinion of himself in
<38af7006$1...@news.uncensored-news.com>
on Sat, 19 Feb 2000 22:39:29 -0600
"QUACK QUACK WOOF WOOF.
FYI, shit for brains, u-n keeps logs of all users posting activity,
WITHOUT
a subponea. LEA however, does need a warrant to look at those records.
What conclusions are they going to draw? 'This guy really is a flaming
idiot.'"
STEAMFAX
gassed.
--He became known to the world as Adolf Hitler.
Potent stuff.
I'm not exactly sure when Lord of the Rings was written(I always liked the
Hobbit better, more light hearted and quaint, LoTR became this long gloomy epic
where everyone seemed to spend a lot of time traveling and eating), but it was
heavily published in the 60's.
It captured a lot of interest at the time and the imagination of a generation
with his descriptions of these heretofore vague races from our childhood
memories; and their squablings with each other. Also I cannot help but think
that the events surrounding the world wars played some influence on how he put
together his story. The old world of the 1800's in which tolkien grew up in was
suddenly taken away in the machine age of wwi evolving into ww2. Then there was
the larger than life good and bad guys like Churchill, Stalin Adof Hitler,
Roosevelt shaping and controlling international events which reached down and
plucked at the quiet nobody sitting comfortably at his fireplace .
There has been plenty of spinoffs of this, Sword of Shannara, the IronKeep to
name a couple. The theme is the same Some quiet nobody is sitting at his fire
in a medieval fantasy age and and his placid existance is disturbed first
gently, then violently by some massive evil from a distant region seeking to
take over the "world."
Krud
news:sd7bi5...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> Drunken Viking warriors would throw the little
> > people around for fun, and it eventually developed into the national
sport
> > of Canada.
> >
That's only in downtown America. In the rural areas we have mass murders.
Get your facts straight, eh.....
-Krud :)
L.J. Wischik
>Who invented the concept of Dwarves, Elves, Spell Books, and/or the
In fact, dwarfism is a commonish biological (genetic?) disorder. And
elvishness is also a standard genetic disorder that gives people elvish
faces and a magical way with words and a 'other-worldliness'. So in a
sense dwarves and elves must have been in the human imagination since
humans began.
Quatoria
ljw...@cus.cam.ac.uk (L.J. Wischik) wrote:
>people elvish
>faces and a magical way with words and a 'other-worldliness'
I'm sorry, Lucian, could you go over that again? A "magical way with
words?" They walk around muttering Vas Por Flam?
--
Quatoria
Everything I've ever told you is a lie. I just lied to you, and I'm lying to you now.
http://members.tripod.com/~Quatoria/genreblind.html - Genre Blind Radio: Our Music Doesn't Suck
Rich Goranson
>name a couple.
I think "spinoff" is the politest term ever used for that. You do know that
Christopher Tolkien sued Terry Brooks for plagarism over "Sword of Shannara".
Tolkien did lose the suit, but to this day I know many people who will buy
nothing Brooks has ever been a part of because of his conduct in the matter.
Falsadoom
"Krud" <au...@home.com> wrote in message
news:%TKA4.15033$E85.3...@news1.rdc1.md.home.com...
[snip]
> The word "Dwarf" is derived from the ancient Norse word meaning "little
> people who can be thrown". Drunken Viking warriors would throw the little
> people around for fun, and it eventually developed into the national sport
> of Canada.
>
> The word "Elf" is derived from the ancient Chinese word meaning "someone
> who's head was caught in a rice picking machine". Hence the large,
pointy
> ears that elves are known for having (I saw that on Star Trek once).
>
> -Professor Krudmeister, PhDN
*Insert very long fit of laughter* I was sitting here reading this whole
thread and it was so serious and interesting and then I hit your post and
caught me off guard. Very funny, thanks for the laughs. :-)
Falsa
Joel Mathis
>>There has been plenty of spinoffs of this, Sword of Shannara, the IronKeep to
>>name a couple.
>
>I think "spinoff" is the politest term ever used for that. You do know that
>Christopher Tolkien sued Terry Brooks for plagarism over "Sword of Shannara".
>
>Tolkien did lose the suit, but to this day I know many people who will buy
>nothing Brooks has ever been a part of because of his conduct in the matter.
You sure it doesn't have anything to do with the poor quality of his
writing? That's why I won't buy anything he writes...
Joel MAthis
KenMDale
>(And to talk
>about influence... how many fantasy novels/computer games are there with
>evil overlords named "Saur-" something? You'd think that parents in the
>fantasy world would realize that naming their kid "Sauron", "Necro-
>something", or "Mordred" is dooming him to a life as an evil monster :)
Good point! Many fantasy stories and FRP games depict evil characters as
having nasty-sounding names and walking around in black robes decorated with
skulls etc. - rather like carrying a sign saying "Hit me - I'm evil". I
suspect that in a fantasy world (as in our own) evil would be much more subtle.
It may be that most people get their fill of moral ambiguity in real life, and
want novels and games to have easily identifiable bad guys.
One of the things I really like about the computer game "Master of Magic" is
that it has no good or evil races, only good or evil individuals. The Dark
Elves are merely "mysterious" rather than evil, and the Orcs are the most
civilized race on the planet (not great fighters, but I've hacked the exe file
to fix that). The recent game "Age of Wonders" has many good ideas and is fun
to play, but the relationships do get stereotyped (let's see, Goblins -
eradicate them, Lizardmen - kiss up to them, Halflings - take them for
granted). At least there is no super-powerful "Dark Lord" as in so many LOTR
derivatives.
>Morris introduces the idea of an *independent* "secondary world" -- it
>isn't some uncharted territory in the real world, or a dream, or a
>dimension next door. It's completely separate from our world, and all the
>fantastic events that happen in it, happen because that's what's natural
>for *that* world. That's the sort of thing that you don't see in earlier
>fantasies.
A good fantasy novel or game can be a "thought experiment". You can postulate
a world with certain characteristics, and try to work out the logical
consequences. For example, what might a society be like if communication with
the spirits of the dead was an everyday occurrence, and the existence of life
after death was an obvious fact? People would presumably have little or no
fear of death, and might get irritated at their ancestors bothering them. I
recall a character in a fantasy novel saying something like "In my country the
dead have the good manners to stay dead." A computer game on this theme might
cast the player as a dead ruler acting as an adviser to his descendants, like
the old game "Medieval Lords". Another possibility would be that a deceased
wizard could recruit living followers by giving them the subconscious ability
to use spells without understanding them, thus leading to "clerical" magic.
Ken
Gregor
wrote:
>>There has been plenty of spinoffs of this, Sword of Shannara, the IronKeep to
>>name a couple.
>
>I think "spinoff" is the politest term ever used for that. You do know that
>Christopher Tolkien sued Terry Brooks for plagarism over "Sword of Shannara".
>
>Tolkien did lose the suit, but to this day I know many people who will buy
>nothing Brooks has ever been a part of because of his conduct in the matter.
Interesting. I'm trying to dredge up Brooks series from memory and
spot the plagarism. Sure there are elves, half-elves and dwarves.
But that's hardly unique to the Shannara books. You've got Allanon
(isn't that the name of an alchoholic recovery group?) the mystical
druid, the Elven king, the bad dude up north. Rock trolls, a rogue
hero-type. It's a find the talisman, kill the evil entity story.
With the obligatory each-sequel-is-less-entertaining syndrome.
Which happened (IMO) in another Brooks series, "Magic Kingdom for
sale". Love the first one, yawn afterwards.
Now I'll have to read Sword of Shannara again.
Joel Mathis
>On 19 Mar 2000 08:39:35 GMT, forl...@aol.complex (Rich Goranson)
>wrote:
>
>>>There has been plenty of spinoffs of this, Sword of Shannara, the IronKeep to
>>>name a couple.
>>
>>I think "spinoff" is the politest term ever used for that. You do know that
>>Christopher Tolkien sued Terry Brooks for plagarism over "Sword of Shannara".
>>
>>Tolkien did lose the suit, but to this day I know many people who will buy
>>nothing Brooks has ever been a part of because of his conduct in the matter.
>
> Interesting. I'm trying to dredge up Brooks series from memory and
>spot the plagarism. Sure there are elves, half-elves and dwarves.
>But that's hardly unique to the Shannara books. You've got Allanon
>(isn't that the name of an alchoholic recovery group?) the mystical
>druid, the Elven king, the bad dude up north. Rock trolls, a rogue
>hero-type. It's a find the talisman, kill the evil entity story.
Actually Brooks has admitted to writing an outline of the basic story
of Lord of the Rings and fitting his story into that outline.
Joel Mathis
Matthew Levy
Rumor has it that Zerthimon <zert...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Who invented the concept of Dwarves, Elves, Spell Books, and/or the
>entire Fantasy setting bit?
Duh. It was Al Gore.
-Levy
L.J. Wischik
>I'm sorry, Lucian, could you go over that again? A "magical way with
>words?" They walk around muttering Vas Por Flam?
[from "The Language Instinct" by S. Pinker, pp. 52-53]
The children [with Williams syndrome] have an unnusual appearance: they
are short and slight, with narrow faces and broad foreheads, flat nasal
bridges, sharp chins, star-shaped patterns in their irises, and full
lips. They are sometimes called "elfin-faced" or "pixie people" ... They
are significantly retarted, with an IQ of about 50, and are incompetent
at ordinary tasks ...
... Ask a normal child to name some animals, and you will get the
standard inventory of pet store and barnyard: dog, cat, horse, cow, pig.
Ask a Williams syndrome child, and you get a more interesting menagerie:
unicorn, pteranodon, yak, ibex, water buffalo, sea lion, saber-tooth
tiger, vulture, koala, dragon, and one that should be especially
interesting to paleontologists, "brontosaurus rex." ...
[transcript from a Williams syndrome child, IQ58] "This is a story about
chocolates. Once upon a time, in Chocolate World there used to be a
Chocolate Princess. She was such a yummy princess. She was on her
chocolate throne and then some chocolate man came to see her. And the
man bowed to her and he said these words to her. The man said to her,
"Please, Princess Chocolate. I want you to see how I do my work. And
it's hot outside in Chocolate World, and you might melt to the ground
like melted buytter. And if the sun changes to a different color, then
the Chocolate World -- and you -- won't melt. You can be saved if the
sun changes to a different color. And if it doesn't change to a
different color, you and Chocolate World are doomed."
[another transcript] "And what an elephant is, it is one of the animals.
And what the elephant does, it lives in the jungle. It can also live in
the zoo. And what it has, it has long, gray ears, fan ears, ears that
can blow in the wind. It has a long trunk that can pick up grass or pick
up hay ... If they're in a bad mood, it can be terrible ... If the
elephant gets mad, it could stomp; it could charge. Sometimes elephants
can charge, like a bull can charge. They have big, long, tusks. They can
damage a car ... It could be dangerous. When they're in a pinch, when
they're in a bad mood, it can be terrible. You don't want an elephant as
a pet. You want a cat or a dog or a bird."
Ykalon Dragon
>
> You sure it doesn't have anything to do with the poor quality of his
> writing? That's why I won't buy anything he writes...
>
> Joel MAthis
> See the Hot Sheet at Gone Gold for my take on the day's news
> http://www.gonegold.com/hot
He has actually never said that he's a good writer. He writes solely for
the money.
--
My games for trade http://ugtz.com/users/Patrik.html
ICQ # 45086408
Courageous
> The children [with Williams syndrome] have an unnusual appearance: they
> are short and slight, with narrow faces and broad foreheads, flat nasal
> bridges, sharp chins, star-shaped patterns in their irises, and full
> lips. They are sometimes called "elfin-faced" or "pixie people" ... They
> are significantly retarted, with an IQ of about 50, and are incompetent
> at ordinary tasks ...
I used to work at the Salk Institute in Ursula Bellugi's lab.
Williams Syndrome children are truly charming. However, I don't
believe that they "typically" have an IQ of about 50. I believe
it's more accurate to portray them as "between 50 and 70".
Perhaps that's a sampling bias on my behalf; but that's my
recollection of their IQ, and I was the keeper of the database,
after all. :)
C/
L.J. Wischik
>it's more accurate to portray them as "between 50 and 70".
>Perhaps that's a sampling bias on my behalf; but that's my
It's incredible how many skills and talents are to be found in
c.s.i.p.g.s! I have duly amended my copy of Pinker's "The Language
Instinct", with your figures.
Gregor
Wouldn't it be hard *not* to do something like that? I've written
some anaemic horror shorts that sound suspiciously like S.K.'s stuff
no matter what I do. Everyone borrows from past writers and all of
that.
>Joel Mathis
Matthew V. Jessick
Alexx S Kay wrote:
> This sentiment I *heartily* agree with! It can also be interesting to see
> where less great authors (I'm thinking Gary Gygax here) got their material.
> Every so often, I'll run across the historical/fictional basis for some
> outlandish D&D thing that I was sure he invented out of whole cloth, and it
> always surprises me :-)
I chuckled seeing critics pan a recent movie based on Heinlein's "Puppet
Masters"
as "plot was too derivative" and "this type of story has been done to death" ;)
-Matt
Joel Mathis
>On Sun, 19 Mar 2000 15:34:11 GMT, joelm...@gonegold.com (Joel
>Mathis) wrote:
>>Actually Brooks has admitted to writing an outline of the basic story
>>of Lord of the Rings and fitting his story into that outline.
>
> Wouldn't it be hard *not* to do something like that? I've written
>some anaemic horror shorts that sound suspiciously like S.K.'s stuff
>no matter what I do. Everyone borrows from past writers and all of
>that.
Well, it's one thing to be influenced by earlier writings (like 90% of
fantasy authors out there), it's quite another to make an effort to
copy it.
Lemming
>>Actually Brooks has admitted to writing an outline of the basic story
>>of Lord of the Rings and fitting his story into that outline.
>
> Wouldn't it be hard *not* to do something like that? I've written
>some anaemic horror shorts that sound suspiciously like S.K.'s stuff
>no matter what I do. Everyone borrows from past writers and all of
>that.
Hehe ... any PTerry readers here? I'd guess around 50% or more of the
discworld stuff was borrowed from someone else.
Regards,
Derek Sorensen
--
Curiosity *may* have killed Schrodinger's cat.
Gregor
Mathis) wrote:
>Rumor has it that Gre...@Wayup.north (Gregor) wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 19 Mar 2000 15:34:11 GMT, joelm...@gonegold.com (Joel
>>Mathis) wrote:
>>>Actually Brooks has admitted to writing an outline of the basic story
>>>of Lord of the Rings and fitting his story into that outline.
>>
>> Wouldn't it be hard *not* to do something like that? I've written
>>some anaemic horror shorts that sound suspiciously like S.K.'s stuff
>>no matter what I do. Everyone borrows from past writers and all of
>>that.
>
>Well, it's one thing to be influenced by earlier writings (like 90% of
>fantasy authors out there), it's quite another to make an effort to
>copy it.
Can't argue with that.
Gregor
wrote:
>On Sun, 19 Mar 2000 19:42:00 GMT, Gre...@Wayup.north (Gregor) wrote:
>
>>>Actually Brooks has admitted to writing an outline of the basic story
>>>of Lord of the Rings and fitting his story into that outline.
>>
>> Wouldn't it be hard *not* to do something like that? I've written
>>some anaemic horror shorts that sound suspiciously like S.K.'s stuff
>>no matter what I do. Everyone borrows from past writers and all of
>>that.
>
>Hehe ... any PTerry readers here? I'd guess around 50% or more of the
>discworld stuff was borrowed from someone else.
Jolly good fun, that series. One of the few times I've erupted into
obnoxious explosive laughter while reading. One book that did that to
me sort of ties into this dialogue. It's called "Bored of the Rings"
by harvard national lampoon. If you've re-read Tolkein to death, you
may get a charge out of that title. It's over thirty years old though
and may be hard to find.
>
>Regards,
>
>Derek Sorensen
Zerthimon
not too off-topic though... I'm sure theres an RTS game or two that uses
dwarves and/or elves.
Zerthimon wrote:
> Who invented the concept of Dwarves, Elves, Spell Books, and/or the
Jabba
The elves are present with this name in late Middle-Age French and German
legends like spirits of the forest - dressed in green, usually unseen by
human eyes and watching for the health of the forest.They are neutral unless
the traveller try to harm the forest.This coukld have been combined with the
faery folk of the Celts (mentioned early in this therad) to give birth to
the elves.The Silmarilion however gave its own version of their origin (:-)
and I like it more.Be a fan of Tolkien or not, is not very easy to invent a
world (LOTR) and invent also a bible\mytholgy for that (already mythological
world) (The Silmarilion).
The Dwarves are indeed of nordic\german origin and their physical
appearance (except for the height)and customs also seems to be heavy
influenced by the Germanic race.They are red haired, like to build in stone
strong buildings, like to work metals,they are grim and have an abrupt
speech, they cherish the wealth and the age above all, they are fanaticals
of the given word, they are masters of non magical mechanics.
Slightly off-topic:
I think you will all agree,
we have not seen (yet) a game that captures the Tolkien atmosphere, not even
by far.What I am waiting for is a game where:
-the elves are tough, misterious, beautiful and rare.
-the dwarves are rich, gready,egoistical but helps you when you really need
it.
-the orcs are ruthless,warriors and they are driven by a stronger, central
power (unless the current style of chaotic multiplication and assaults).
-the halflings\hobbits may not be present at all
-the humans are split in differrent kingdoms and they can fight on all
sides.Each side can benefit from the path they choose.
So far the best approach I have seen is in the Warhammer series.And BTW,
speaking on "inspiration from Tolkien", nobody had mentioned Games
Workshop.Their Tolkienesque mitology is one of the best build I have ever
seen.Of course, it does suffer from the same fundamental flaw:alliances
between the good and the bad are permitted and encouraged.All this while I
am thinking that one of the reasons of the appeal of LOTR and the rest of
Tolkien original work is the simplicity of the psichology of the
charachters: in a perfect world like his world ,there are only good and
evil, pure and simple, no gray shades.So the player\reader can relax and
watch the action without too much introspection on which side he\she
identifies himself\herself.The carachters choices are clear, and the plot is
simple, the evil fights the good, no wandering around.
How attractive whould have been the Tolkien's book if, for example the
humans would have find themselves fighting an elf-orc alliance and would
have been saved by some devil\dwarf mix of mercenaries and after that all
split and begin battling each other(as most of strategy\fantasy games of
today propose)?
Best regards,
Jabba.
Dr. Tongue
news:20000318144550...@ng-cl1.news.cs.com...
> somebody else spent some time thinking during his recovery from being
mustard
> gassed.
> --He became known to the world as Adolf Hitler.
> Potent stuff.
>
My grandfather was similarly gassed in W.W.I. He didn't become known as
anything to anyone except (possibly) to the men who bought suits from him.
So it may not be the gas. :-)
triggercut
a life of it's own, but I thought I'd add that in the same lawsuit, the
Tolkein Estate also tried to prevent TSR from using the spelling of
"Dwarves" which, apparently from which we can assume a claim of
invention on JRR's behalf? (The spelling, not the actual creatures...)
Apparently before that it was "dwarfs" which in its plural form now is
strictly a verb.
TSR got to keep their dwarves, obviously.
Joel Mathis wrote:
>
> All of it, pretty much, but Tolkien was a smart guy. He basically
> compiled the mythology of Europe (dwarves from Norse legends, the Ents
> are his take on Giants, Elves from both Norse and Celtic traditions,
> orcs from goblins) and built his own mythology out of those building
> blocks from the ground up. So while Tolkien may have based his work
> on existing stuff, he put his own spin on things which is far more
> than you can say for most of his followers.
>
> So Tolkien popularized it, but it took AD&D to kill it. Early
> versions of AD&D refer to halflings (which Tolkien called Hobbits as
> well at several points) as hobbits. A lawsuit from the Tolkien estate
> put a stop to that which is why you see all the refrences to halflings
> in the fantasy games. That didn't stop AD&D from taking enough
> concepts from Tolkien to establish the traditional concept of the RPG
> (I say taking because they were actively trying to copy Tolkien).
>
hot
Knight37
[much snippage]
> In fairness, they finally did license something out to some kind
> of Middle Earth RPG, but it did not seem to go anywhere.
MERPS - Middle Earth Role-Playing System. Designed and published by
ICE (Iron Crown Enterprises), an early RPG developer. They also made
Role-Master, a generic set of fantasy RPG rules, which was heavily
chart based. It was never extremely popular, but had a militantly
devoted small fan-base, and they put out quite a bit of material. They
did Space Master, and a few other RM-based games. There was actually
quite a bit of MERPS stuff published also, very interesting reading for
Tolkein fans, whether or not you actually play the RPG. They tried to
revive MERPS several years ago with a 2nd edition, but I think by that
time Wizards of the Coast had pretty much killed the RPG industry with
Magic: The Gathering. Still, there is more than enough material already
available for it (if you can find it used) for a Tolkein fan to easily
put together a nice little campaign.
Knight37
Tarvok
Mathis) wrote:
<snip discusion of fantasy roots>
>
>And why the heck is this in .strategic?
>
<shrug> Why not?
- Tarvok
http://members.xoom.com/Tarvok.1
To send e-mail, I think it's obvious what must be
done.
Tarvok
wrote:
>Quatoria <Quat...@NOSPAM.bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>I'm sorry, Lucian, could you go over that again? A "magical way with
>>words?" They walk around muttering Vas Por Flam?
>
>[from "The Language Instinct" by S. Pinker, pp. 52-53]
>
<snip stuff>
Cool! They may have a low IQ, but I'll bet an adult with this syndrome
could make a fortune in fantasy literature!
Joel Mathis
>On Sat, 18 Mar 2000 05:37:17 GMT, joelm...@gonegold.com (Joel
>Mathis) wrote:
>
><snip discusion of fantasy roots>
>>
>>And why the heck is this in .strategic?
>>
>
><shrug> Why not?
It just seemed an odd thing to come up in Strategic. This discussion
usually shows up in RPG...
Tom Hoffend
> [much snippage]
ICE Still makes MERPS and Rolemaster products, and their products can
be found at most specialty (hobby-type) gaming shops. I have seen
MERPS stuff at places like Borders books. The Rolemaster world is alive
and well; a new edition was released about 4 or so years ago. MERPS and
Rolemaster can be used together, too. I am part of a gaming group of
seven people that has been using it (RM) for the better part of a decade -
two different worlds, two different GMs, alternating about once per year.
There is a new version of Spacemaster coming out (or already is out)
supposedly this month and is compatible with Rolemaster so those who
like to combine fantasy and sci-fi (Phantasy Star, anyone?) can do so
within ICE's system. There are also Rolemaster source books that deal
with modern fire arms, "special ops" (Shadowrun-like stuff), Wild West, ...
I personally think Rolemaster is a decent system, even if it does use a
large number of charts. I like the way the system handles skill development,
fighting, criticals, armor, and magic. For example, armor behaves
differently depending on what type of weapon (or claw, bite, crunch, etc.)
is hitting it, and death due to pure damage is almost unheard of - it is
the critical hits that kill. Criticals can be amusing too depending on
size of the person/creature dealing the crit - everyone always cringes when
they think they are going to get a "tiny" critical, for example. They
are rarely fatal, but they always end up doing something annoying (but
fun/challenging to play from a roleplaying standpoint), like tearing off
your earlobe, poking your eye out, etc. One question you never want
to hear the GM ask is "are you wearing a helmet?"
Our games tend to involve more RPG'ing than hack-n-slash, though, and the
skill system does a good job handling that as well. We have lots of
politics, intrigue, problems running a manor house, squatters on our
land, dealing with taxes, dukes, empresses, smugglers, protecting
investments in businesses, etc.
We play CCG's and strategy games, too, but MtG has fallen out of favor.
Sorry for being a bit off topic.
TRH
--
Thomas R. Hoffend Jr., Ph.D. EMAIL: trho...@mmm.com
3M Company
3M Center Bldg. 201-1C-18 My opinions are my own and not
St. Paul, MN 55144-1000 those of 3M Company.
Opinions expressed herein are my own and may not represent those of my employer.
Knight37
>ICE Still makes MERPS and Rolemaster products, and their products
>can be found at most specialty (hobby-type) gaming shops. I have
>seen MERPS stuff at places like Borders books. The Rolemaster world
>is alive and well; a new edition was released about 4 or so years
>ago.
[snip]
Thanks, that's good to hear (because if RM is still kicking, it means
the industry isn't dead). :)
Knight37
Dr. Tongue
news:8EFE8FA4Cknigh...@209.30.0.14...
I'm sorry, I didn't see this concern coming. Have we been running out of
geeks? :-)
Tom Hoffend
Nope, there are still plenty of us around.
We are all a bunch of eggheads - geeks that were playing D&D when it
first came out - a couple theoretical physicists, two
engineers, two graphics/motion capture/animation specialists, and
writer/web page designer.
There are at least two other groups like us, of similar size, age, and
professional makeup, that I know about in the Twin Cities area, too.
Knight37
>Knight37 <knig...@gamespotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:8EFE8FA4Cknigh...@209.30.0.14...
>> trho...@mmm.com (Tom Hoffend) wrote:
>>
>> >ICE Still makes MERPS and Rolemaster products, and their products
>> >can be found at most specialty (hobby-type) gaming shops. I have
>> >seen MERPS stuff at places like Borders books. The Rolemaster
>> >world is alive and well; a new edition was released about 4 or
>> >so years ago.
>> [snip]
>>
>> Thanks, that's good to hear (because if RM is still kicking, it
>> means the industry isn't dead). :)
>>
>
>I'm sorry, I didn't see this concern coming. Have we been running
>out of geeks? :-)
I guess. I think we need to have National Geek Week (scary thing is,
there probably already is one), and wear our Geekdom Proudly!
--
Knight37
"That was just pillow talk, baby."
-- Ash, "Army of Darkness"
Geoffrey Tobin
>
> Unlikely, since the 'novel' form only started around the end of the 18th
> century...
Perhaps a particular novel form, in England.
But fiction books that are recognisably novels
in the sense of Dickens's magazine serialisations
are much than the late 1700's in many countries.
Cervantes's "Don Quixote", the "Jin Ping-Mei" in China,
and other works of the 1600's are distinctly novelesque.
It wouldn't surprise me at all to find sth. resembling
a novel in Classical Latin or Greek literature.
--
Best wishes!
Geoffrey Tobin
Email: G.T...@latrobe.edu.au
WWW: http://www.ee.latrobe.edu.au/~gt/gt.html
Geoffrey Tobin
...
> Celtic mythology had "faery folk", which have more in common with D&D
> elves than with modern-day fairies.
The Persian "Peri" and Chinese "Fei" are also significantly
similar.
Do the Americas, traditional Africa and other lands have
tales of elf-like folk?
> And in Celtic mythology, these faery
> folk were sometimes cruel and noble and didn't care much for the passions
> or cares of humans. Also, just like Tolkein's elves, the Celtic faeries
> were all forced to leave the world with the advent of iron.
That's interesting. Upon reflection, the Arthurian legends
are very much in that mould.
> Given that Tolkein taught Norse and Celtic, it's fair to say that both
> these things influenced him...
Yes, but istr he said he liked Finnish best.
Geoffrey Tobin
...
> All this while I
> am thinking that one of the reasons of the appeal of LOTR and the rest of
> charachters: in a perfect world like his world, there are only good and
> evil, pure and simple, no gray shades.
That's not true at all. Galadriel was still in Middle Earth
because she committed an Offence, and she nearly succumbed to
the temptation of the Ring. Saruman used to be Good. Frodo
was tormented by dark thoughts (Gollum is a bad influence,
and the Ring is worse). Gollum became a murderer because
of the Ring, yet he still had a remnant conscience until
the very last moment. Even Sauron was good in the beginning
of his existence. Boromir was extremely ambiguous.
The ghosts of the dead who had acted with cowardice in the
past found their peace through helping Aragorn.
The struggle in tLotR between Good and Evil on the large scale
is mirrored by crises of conscience in the lives of many of
its characters.
The only character that was purely good, as far as we can tell
by his imperviousness to the Ring, was Tom Bombadil.
> How attractive whould have been the Tolkien's book if, for example the
> humans would have find themselves fighting an elf-orc alliance and would
> have been saved by some devil\dwarf mix of mercenaries
If the orcs and other nasties were reformed, why not?
Otherwise, it would still have been great drama.
Tolkien could have pulled that off with great success
had it been his intent. As evidence of this: in the
Second Age, Middle Earth was rescued from Sauron by the
Numenoreans who had already begun their moral decline
which ended in their destruction because of their
jealousy of the Elves.
> and after that all split and begin battling each other
> (as most of strategy\fantasy games of today propose)?
That's how the High Men in tLoTR had become weak.
OTOH, during the War of the Ring, the Easterlings and
Southrons supported Sauron and were greatly feared,
often loathed in the north-western lands. Yet they
formed a mutually beneficial treaty with Elessar
at the end of the war, and were suddenly well regarded.
Politics, anyone?
Tarvok
wrote:
>I guess. I think we need to have National Geek Week (scary thing is,
>there probably already is one), and wear our Geekdom Proudly!
That would be a terrible idea. You have any idea how quickly that
would get run over by wannabes?
Geek wannabes! To think I was persecuted in my youth!
Desslock
>
> On 19 Mar 2000 08:39:35 GMT, forl...@aol.complex (Rich Goranson)
> wrote:
>
> >>There has been plenty of spinoffs of this, Sword of Shannara, the IronKeep to
> >>name a couple.
> >
> >I think "spinoff" is the politest term ever used for that. You do know that
> >Christopher Tolkien sued Terry Brooks for plagarism over "Sword of Shannara".
> >
> >Tolkien did lose the suit, but to this day I know many people who will buy
> >nothing Brooks has ever been a part of because of his conduct in the matter.
>
> Interesting. I'm trying to dredge up Brooks series from memory and
> spot the plagarism. Sure there are elves, half-elves and dwarves.
> But that's hardly unique to the Shannara books. You've got Allanon
> (isn't that the name of an alchoholic recovery group?) the mystical
> druid, the Elven king, the bad dude up north. Rock trolls, a rogue
> hero-type. It's a find the talisman, kill the evil entity story.
Sword of Shannara is almost a complete rewrite of Lord of the Rings,
minus the Tom Bombadil songs, heh. Pretty blatent.
Desslock
--
Desslock's RPG News: http://desslock.gamespot.com Latest additions:
First looks at Might and Magic Legends and Dungeon Siege.
James Dusek
says...
> Sword of Shannara is almost a complete rewrite of Lord of the Rings,
> minus the Tom Bombadil songs, heh. Pretty blatent.
Terry Brooks came to my school have talked to our writing class.
You should have seen the screen play for the movie. Dustin Hauffman as
the lead, and a super computer was the big bad dude. Needless to say Mr.
Brooks was happy the movie was never made.
James Dusek
Michael Sam
What? The super computer played who? Is this a screen play for Sword
of Shannara?
Dr. Tongue
news:MPG.136e5fe75...@news.cig.mot.com...
>
> Terry Brooks came to my school have talked to our writing class.
> You should have seen the screen play for the movie. Dustin Hauffman as
> the lead, and a super computer was the big bad dude. Needless to say Mr.
> Brooks was happy the movie was never made.
>
You took a writing class?!?
James Dusek
doctor...@drunkenbastards.com says...
Yup, shure did. For you I'd suggest classes in manners, respecting
other people's opinions, and proper usenet posting.
James Dusek
James Dusek
says...
>
> What? The super computer played who? Is this a screen play for Sword
> of Shannara?
The main evil villain in the end was a supercomputer, and yes this
was what was written for the screen play.
James Dusek
mega
opinions? You of the "TB is dead and superceded and if you think
otherwise you are wrong!" mindset? Heh, you need an open mind to be able
to respect others opinions and your mind is about as closed as I've
seen. Well on the subject of TB anyway. Who knows other than that one
subject you might be the most open minded guy around.
John Waters
their have always been both in ancient folflore, Ie, the Eldar races
etc..
As for the Brooks Tolkien argument their reraly is no comparison in
their storys or writing style. Hard core Tolkien'ist though believe
every book written that has an Elf or a Dwarf in it is copied from
LOTR though 8P.....
Regards, John Waters
-----------
Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to make their life fulfilled.
----------
Bob Perez
"Dr. Tongue" <doctor...@drunkenbastards.com> wrote in message
news:axiN4.71078$y4.22...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
STEAMFAX
massive civilizations complete with agressive armies. Previously, unless I'm
wrong prior to Tolkien most of these creatures existed as shadowy creatures
playing bit parts or where background characters in the older lores.
Since then every auther to come down the pike has borrowed heavily from him,
and if we see dwarves or elves we come to expect them as characters of virtue
and the opposite of course for any orcs or goblins that appear. This impression
is definitly reinforced in the Age of Wonders, though in many other computer
games the deliniation is not quite so clear. In Homm games and its ancestor,
King's bounty, these creatures are mere componets to an army, there might have
been some morale penalties, but otherwise there seems to be no concept of good
or evil.
Martin Leslie Leuschen
were actually Tesla's idea.
Regards,
martinl
Richard
<jwa...@tampabay.rr.com> writes
>No one 'invented' Dwarfs or Elves at least for publication purposes
>their have always been both in ancient folflore, Ie, the Eldar races
>
> As for the Brooks Tolkien argument their reraly is no comparison in
>their storys or writing style. Hard core Tolkien'ist though believe
>every book written that has an Elf or a Dwarf in it is copied from
>LOTR though 8P.....
>
Well, lets face it, although Tolkien didn't invent Dwarves and Elves, we
wouldn't have half the current fantasy stuff we do without him. And many
fantasy worlds aren't exactly thriving with originality.
see ya,
Richard Lloyd
The Texifer
> ...the Tolkein Estate also tried to prevent TSR from using
> the spelling of "Dwarves" which, apparently from which we
> can assume a claim of invention on JRR's behalf? (The spelling,
> not the actual creatures...) Apparently before that it was "dwarfs"
> which in its plural form now is strictly a verb.
Well, you can if you believe what he says in the back of the book.
Texifer
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Courageous
> Well, lets face it, although Tolkien didn't invent Dwarves and Elves, we
> wouldn't have half the current fantasy stuff we do without him.
I don't believe this.
C/
William McHarg
wrote:
>
>> Well, lets face it, although Tolkien didn't invent Dwarves and Elves, we
>> wouldn't have half the current fantasy stuff we do without him.
>
>I don't believe this.
Well, having been a fantasy reader for as long as I can remember.. (I
read the "pirated" Ace books edition of TLOTR when it came out in the
US.)
Before Tolkien, dwarves in fantasy were small creatures that kept to
themselves and had little interaction with humans. Elves were
generally described as small, fairylike beings. I think the current
image of dwarves as the axe-wielding, chainmail-wearing warriors
probably did originate with Tolkien. And the image of Elves as tall,
beautiful, dangerous fighters also originated with Tolkien.
He didnt invent them, but he did change the popular notion of what
they were from the old fairy story images to what is currently popular
in fantasy.
Mac
Oddjob
fantasy settings being 80 percent of those in swords and sorcery fiction and
99 percent in fantasy computer gaming. For something different check out
King of Dragon Pass from http://www.a-sharp.com. It's unique kind of
strategy/roleplaying game in an original fantasy setting based on the old
Runequest series. WARNING: By unique I mean it takes skill, patience and
curiousity to enjoy. No animated graphics or real-time strategy.
Everything is turn-based and very complex with a goodly amount of the
outcome based on how one deals with random events that can crop up and shape
your tribe.
Check out the site at the least if you've ever said to yourself "I'm sick
of elves and I want a fantasy strategy game that has /some/ aesthetic and
intellectual merit!" Well, something along those lines at least. King of
Dragon Pass is epic roleplaying in the mythic sense with tribe management,
warfare, diplomacy, exploration and leadership as the backdrop.
-Brian
Richard wrote:
> In article <39070797.2819711@news-server>, John Waters
> <jwa...@tampabay.rr.com> writes
> >No one 'invented' Dwarfs or Elves at least for publication purposes
> >their have always been both in ancient folflore, Ie, the Eldar races
> >etc..
> >
> > As for the Brooks Tolkien argument their reraly is no comparison in
> >their storys or writing style. Hard core Tolkien'ist though believe
> >every book written that has an Elf or a Dwarf in it is copied from
> >LOTR though 8P.....
> >
>
> Well, lets face it, although Tolkien didn't invent Dwarves and Elves, we
Ashland S Henderson
Courageous wrote in message <390A97D1...@san.rr.com>...
>
>> Well, lets face it, although Tolkien didn't invent Dwarves and Elves, we
>> wouldn't have half the current fantasy stuff we do without him.
>
I do. I lived through the explosion of fantasy after Tolkien. As explained
to me by Poul Anderson, before Tolkien his science fiction sold better.
After Tolkien, his fantasy sold better. For a niche market like fantasy,
Tolkien was a real smash. How many fantasy books can you name that
have been continuously in print and selling well for 45 years. (and more
if you count The Hobbit).
Ashland S Henderson
William McHarg wrote in message ...
>>> wouldn't have half the current fantasy stuff we do without him.
>>
>>I don't believe this.
>
>read the "pirated" Ace books edition of TLOTR when it came out in the
>US.)
>
>Before Tolkien, dwarves in fantasy were small creatures that kept to
>themselves and had little interaction with humans. Elves were
>generally described as small, fairylike beings. I think the current
>image of dwarves as the axe-wielding, chainmail-wearing warriors
>probably did originate with Tolkien. And the image of Elves as tall,
>beautiful, dangerous fighters also originated with Tolkien.
>
>He didnt invent them, but he did change the popular notion of what
>they were from the old fairy story images to what is currently popular
>in fantasy.
Agreed. Though the pointed ears of elves were an artist's invention
that had nothing to do with Tolkien.
Courageous
> I do. I lived through the explosion of fantasy after Tolkien. As explained
> to me by Poul Anderson, before Tolkien his science fiction sold better.
> After Tolkien, his fantasy sold better.
Another plausible argument would be that the market was ripe for
fantasy -- that there was a latent demand that only had to be
fulfilled by *some* talented author, not a particular one.
C/
Ashland S Henderson
Courageous wrote in message <390B1B62...@san.rr.com>...
Yeah, but I don't think it carries quite as much water. If you were born
after that period with all of the things that are out now, you have no
idea of how much impact TLOTR had.
Courageous
> >Another plausible argument would be that the market was ripe for
> >fantasy -- that there was a latent demand that only had to be
> >fulfilled by *some* talented author, not a particular one.
>
> Yeah, but I don't think it carries quite as much water. If you were born
> after that period with all of the things that are out now, you have no
> idea of how much impact TLOTR had.
Well, to play Devil's Advocate, one might suggest that you
can't see the forest for the trees, and that if it hadn't
been Tolkien, it would have been someone else. This is a
typical view of modern historical analysis, by the way. For
example, modern historians will go so far as to asser that
if it hadn't been Hitler, it would have been someone else.
An extreme case, but a degree of aptness to it, too. One
could quite easily argue that all that hate had to be there
to be tapped, and that it was very ripe to be tapped.
In case it's not obvious, I'm indifferent to either concept.
C/
Rich Goranson
>can't see the forest for the trees, and that if it hadn't
>been Tolkien, it would have been someone else.
Well, considering that JRRT started doing this sort of stuff in 1915 its rather
difficult to imagine precisely WHO would have been doing this.
Rich Goranson (Lord Stephan Calvert deGrey)
Buffalo, NY (Barony of the Rhydderich Hael, Æthelmearc)
Diplomacy addict, F&E guru, Expos fan and medieval re-creationist
"I could have conquered Europe, all of it, but I had women in my life." - Henry
II
Bryan J. Maloney
<jkra...@san.rr.com> wrote:
> > >Another plausible argument would be that the market was ripe for
> > >fantasy -- that there was a latent demand that only had to be
> > >fulfilled by *some* talented author, not a particular one.
> >
> > Yeah, but I don't think it carries quite as much water. If you were born
> > after that period with all of the things that are out now, you have no
> > idea of how much impact TLOTR had.
>
> Well, to play Devil's Advocate, one might suggest that you
> can't see the forest for the trees, and that if it hadn't
> been Tolkien, it would have been someone else. This is a
Now, what evidence can be mustered for this?
> typical view of modern historical analysis, by the way. For
Of course, they can't back up their claims.
--
"Before we judge the lobotomist of old too severely, we
should go to the nearest street grate and see how we are
dealing with our mental health crisis today."
Bryan J. Maloney
forl...@aol.complex (Rich Goranson) wrote:
> >Well, to play Devil's Advocate, one might suggest that you
> >can't see the forest for the trees, and that if it hadn't
> >been Tolkien, it would have been someone else.
>
> Well, considering that JRRT started doing this sort of stuff in 1915 its
rather
> difficult to imagine precisely WHO would have been doing this.
Another of the Inklings?
Ralph Wesseling
<jkra...@san.rr.com> wrote:
> > Well, lets face it, although Tolkien didn't invent Dwarves and Elves, we
> > wouldn't have half the current fantasy stuff we do without him.
>
> I don't believe this.
>
>
> C/
His vision of middle earth is derivitative of many early poems en epic
stories. The works by Tolkien have certainly influence just about every
fantasy author since. Its impossible not to be influenced. And yes if
you have never read tolkien and base all your ideas on other authors then
you have still been indirectly influenced by Tolkien. Anyway who cares the
man was a genius, the depth and thorugh put into the histories of middle
eart are unrivalled
R
Chris Camfield
<ash...@ccnet.com> wrote:
>
>Courageous wrote in message <390A97D1...@san.rr.com>...
>>
>>> Well, lets face it, although Tolkien didn't invent Dwarves and Elves, we
>>> wouldn't have half the current fantasy stuff we do without him.
>>
>>I don't believe this.
>
>
>I do. I lived through the explosion of fantasy after Tolkien. As explained
>to me by Poul Anderson, before Tolkien his science fiction sold better.
>After Tolkien, his fantasy sold better. For a niche market like fantasy,
>Tolkien was a real smash.
Actually, The Lord of the Rings is one of the best-selling books ever.
I think all 3 parts are (or at least were recently) in the top 10 for
fiction sales overall.
Chris
Geoffrey Tobin
>
> > I do. I lived through the explosion of fantasy after Tolkien. As explained
> > to me by Poul Anderson, before Tolkien his science fiction sold better.
> > After Tolkien, his fantasy sold better.
>
> fantasy -- that there was a latent demand that only had to be
> fulfilled by *some* talented author, not a particular one.
JRR Tolkien spent decades since WW1 refining his stories and
telling them to his children and friends before they were
published. One of his close friends was CS Lewis, whose
Narnia books have also been best-sellers. In fact, they
bounced ideas off each other, so Narnia and tLoTR contain
some interdependencies.
Fantasy novels have always been popular, even in Roman times,
but it takes a genius to reshape the genre and make the
changes stick, as Tolkien did.
Original writers are few, no matter what the blurbs may say.
Among the originals whose works still inspire are Homer
(not Simpson), Shakespeare, the author of The 1001 Nights,
Asimov and Tolkien. Another whose works are worthy to be
emulated, but aren't, is Ursula Le Guin.
Incidentally, imo Poul Andersen's best novel was Tau Zero,
as i prefer my science hard, and my futuristic heroes
not to be renegades from a pirate movie.
--
Best wishes!
Geoffrey Tobin
Email: G.T...@latrobe.edu.au
WWW: http://www.ee.latrobe.edu.au/~gt/gt.html
Geoffrey Tobin
>
> Well, to play Devil's Advocate, one might suggest that you
> can't see the forest for the trees, and that if it hadn't
> typical view of modern historical analysis, by the way.
A view which was trashed handsomely in an episode of Babylon 5. ;)
All analyses must have their assumptions examined stringently.
The flaw in the "modern historical analysis" is that it assumes
large numbers of candidates.
In fact, not everyone is the best.
When two people have come up with the same idea around the same
time, it is often only two, not a hundred, and their insights
are often very different. For example, Newton and Leibnitz with
the invention of calculus, Schrodinger and Heisenberg with
quantum mechanics. So, if one of those had died of measles
as a child, then there would only be one, and the world would
have been significantly the poorer.
When the numbers are few, the "anyone could have done it"
argument fails, just as Adam Smith's classical economics fails
when faced with corporate mergers on a global scale.
The test of a theory is its ability to predict. "Modern
historical analysis" predicts nothing. Throw it into the
trash can of history.
> For example, modern historians will go so far as to assert that
> if it hadn't been Hitler, it would have been someone else.
Not credible if you follow his career, and how he reshaped
a fringe group of punks into a major political force.
> An extreme case, but a degree of aptness to it, too. One
> could quite easily argue that all that hate had to be there
> to be tapped, and that it was very ripe to be tapped.
An Idi Amin, a Milosevic, a Mugabe or a Howard may tap such
sentiments for political gain, but the degree of their success
depends not only on their circumstance but also on the strengths
and weaknesses of their personalities.
We are not all clones, and even identical twins may choose entirely
different careers. So if the number of people with the ability and
the situation to make a difference are few, then the course of events
will depend on the choices of a few individuals.
Anyoen who considers Margaret Thatcher versus Ted Heath versus
John Major observes that the person makes the difference to the
events.
Events often rest on a multi-dimensional knife-edge, and may
be turned one way or the other, depending on who has the leverage
and how they're feeling that day.
Someone might assert that if Blucher hadn't rescued Wellington's
army, then someone else would have, but only a counter-factualist
would believe it.
> In case it's not obvious, I'm indifferent to either concept.
Concepts have their ranges of applicability. That's why we have
so many.
Richie
>
> Fantasy novels have always been popular, even in Roman times,
> but it takes a genius to reshape the genre and make the
> changes stick, as Tolkien did.
>
> Original writers are few, no matter what the blurbs may say.
>
> Among the originals whose works still inspire are Homer
> (not Simpson), Shakespeare, the author of The 1001 Nights,
> Asimov and Tolkien. Another whose works are worthy to be
> emulated, but aren't, is Ursula Le Guin.
What about Frank Herbert (Dune series).
> Incidentally, imo Poul Andersen's best novel was Tau Zero,
> as i prefer my science hard, and my futuristic heroes
> not to be renegades from a pirate movie.
>
mwa...@cc.usu.edu
Elves, dwarves, fairies, gnomes, hobbits, such like that have been around for
quite a long time... (LONG time)
gnomes, pixies, stuff like that are ancient folklore or near mythical I believe
in age, the Tolkien Elf I'm not as sure about, as the elves of folklore were
shorter (Tolkien's IIRC were slightly taller than humans)
a history of literature person would likely be able to give better details than
I can however
also of note, the Oriental Elves have long pointed ears as well, but the ears
don't stand up (they stick out the side)
also, for those who are curious... you can find references to some things in
various mythologies... Titans, Giants and such are somewhat common in those
stories
hope this helps someone with the original question
ps, it would not surprise me if Tolkien were not the first to have elves taller
than humans, but is likely the most well-known
Nip
>
> not sure if the question in the subject has been answered yet...
> Elves, dwarves, fairies, gnomes, hobbits, such like that have been around for
> quite a long time... (LONG time)
Not hobbits.
> gnomes, pixies, stuff like that are ancient folklore or near mythical I believe
> in age, the Tolkien Elf I'm not as sure about, as the elves of folklore were
> shorter (Tolkien's IIRC were slightly taller than humans)
>
> a history of literature person would likely be able to give better details than
> I can however
>
> also of note, the Oriental Elves have long pointed ears as well, but the ears
> don't stand up (they stick out the side)
What are these Oriental Elves? Not anime characters I gather?
> also, for those who are curious... you can find references to some things in
> various mythologies... Titans, Giants and such are somewhat common in those
> stories
>
> hope this helps someone with the original question
>
> ps, it would not surprise me if Tolkien were not the first to have elves taller
> than humans, but is likely the most well-known
The traditional tiny fairy tale elves are in Tolkiens original mythology
supposed to be "faded" elves. The elves were the firstborn and taller
than humans, but as humans grew more numerous and powerful, the elves
faded.
Jabba
stunning - I have seen that quite rarely in fantasy literature.My favourite
comparation for this level of detail is the Polish writer Sienkiewicz - they
look the same in many respects to me, but especially on how *real* although
*perfect* their worlds seems to be .It's like Tolkien was a one thousand
cords violin , each cord perfectly accorded , and singing a self written
amazing simphony.
Jabba.
William McHarg <wmc...@dimensional.com> wrote in message
> Before Tolkien, dwarves in fantasy were small creatures that kept to
> themselves and had little interaction with humans. Elves were
> generally described as small, fairylike beings. I think the current
> image of dwarves as the axe-wielding, chainmail-wearing warriors
> probably did originate with Tolkien. And the image of Elves as tall,
> beautiful, dangerous fighters also originated with Tolkien.
>
> He didnt invent them, but he did change the popular notion of what
> they were from the old fairy story images to what is currently popular
> in fantasy.
>
> Mac
Geoffrey Tobin
>
> > Among the originals whose works still inspire are Homer
> > (not Simpson), Shakespeare, the author of The 1001 Nights,
> > Asimov and Tolkien. Another whose works are worthy to be
> > emulated, but aren't, is Ursula Le Guin.
>
> What about Frank Herbert (Dune series).
Yes, for the first novel. I haven't read the others,
as it's said they lack the creative spark.
Dave Whiteside
(Geoffrey Tobin) wrote:
> Richie wrote:
> >
> > > Among the originals whose works still inspire are Homer
> > > (not Simpson), Shakespeare, the author of The 1001 Nights,
> > > Asimov and Tolkien. Another whose works are worthy to be
> > > emulated, but aren't, is Ursula Le Guin.
> >
> > What about Frank Herbert (Dune series).
>
> Yes, for the first novel. I haven't read the others,
> as it's said they lack the creative spark.
>
They go on and on and on and on... I never completed book 5 I think.
Dave
--
Whoever lays a hand on me to govern me is a usurper and a tyrant,
I declare them my enemy. [Zounds]
http://on.to/obsession