PLEASE READ! NEO NAZI USENET GROUP CFV...
Paul Hanlin, Jr.
Please distribute the following message as you seem appropriate.
A group of neo-nazis are trying to form a newsgroup on Usenet
called rec.music.white-power, so that they can get their message of
hate out to young people using the Internet. Newsgroups are public
discussion areas on the Internet and their formation requires enough
support from the Internet community. >EACH AND EVERY ONE OF YOU HAS
ONE VOTE when it comes to creating a new Usenet group. I hope you will
vote NO and thereby tell these Nazis you don't want their stuff on the
net. Below is the procedure, please repos my plea and get the NO vote
out. This is my personal opinion. If you want to see the official
call for votes, you can. Do _not_ vote twice - that would constitute
voting fraud.
HOW TO VOTE:
Send E-MAIL (posts to a newsgroup are invalid) to:
This is an impartial, third-party vote taker.
Do not REPLY to THIS message, if you are trying to vote. Please do
not assume that just replying to this message will work. Check the
address before you mail your vote. Your mail message should contain
only one statement:
I vote NO on rec.music.white-power
Vote counting is automated. Failure to follow these directions may
mean that your vote does not get counted. If you do not receive an
acknowledgment of your vote within three days contact the votetaker
about the problem. It's your responsibility to make sure your vote is
registered correctly.
Here's what Canada's George Burdi, of the neo-Nazi Heritage Front, had
to say about this vote, on February 21, on his RESISTANCE mailing
list:
"There is a call for votes coming on rec.music.white-power in the next
week or so, and you will be notified in a special issue of RREN exactly
what to do. FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS TO THE LETTER. Let me be
perfectly blunt and state that we have more than enough "net-nazis" to
win this thing hands-down. But every one of you must vote YES! And
just voting yes means nothing unless you do it properly. So you have
been forewarned. The instructions are coming to your email box soon,
and they are not complicated. Just follow them as told, and we will
have a WP music newsgroup finally!"
If Mr. Burdi's confidence disturbs you, please give this letter
the_widest_ possible distribution, and help us deliver the largest NO
vote in the history of UseNet.
PLEASE VOTE 'NO' AS DIRECTED ABOVE AND DO IT A.S.A.P
THANKS
Paul
Clay Cahill
I heard that "Paul Hanlin, Jr." <pau...@ix.netcom.com> said:
>Please distribute the following message as you seem appropriate.
>
>A group of neo-nazis are trying to form a newsgroup on Usenet
>called rec.music.white-power, so that they can get their message of
>hate out to young people using the Internet.
EEEE-Ghads! When will this die? The voting period expired months ago,
and this letter is still being circulated. Look it up if you want to
nkow who won, but I'll tell you this.... the tempest was indeed teapot
contained.
Clay-
_________________________________________________________________________
-Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistibuting this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Clayton A. Cahill, 1996
-License to distribute this post is available for $1,000. Posting
without permission constitutes an agreement to these terms.
-Please send notices of violation to postm...@microsoft.com
Craig J. Lipinski
On Thu, 30 May 1996 20:14:17 -0400, "Paul Hanlin, Jr."
<pau...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Hey, I may totally disagree with these people's message, but I do
believe in the constitution of the united states - which gives them
the right to free speech.
Let them create their newsgroup. If you don't like it, don't read it.
If you're worried about your kids reading it, then you need to screen
what your kids are doing on line.
Just my views... Flame if you like.
-Craig
Alfred Potrzebie
Paul Hanlin, Jr. <pau...@ix.netcom.com> blathered the following:
u==> Please distribute the following message as you seem appropriate.
[call for censorship snipped]
u==> THANKS
u==> Paul
"I disapprove of what you say but I will defend to the death your right
to say it." -- Voltaire
--
--------------...@eden.com-------------------------
Any number of adolescent girls lie face down on the bed and
work on energy, housing, labor, justice, education,
transportation, agriculture, and balance of trade.
First M. Lastname
>Alfred Potrzebie, m...@eden.com wrote;
> Paul Hanlin, Jr. <pau...@ix.netcom.com> blathered the following:
>u==> Please distribute the following message as you seem appropriate.
>[call for censorship snipped]
>u==> THANKS
>u==> Paul
>"I disapprove of what you say but I will defend to the death your right
>to say it." -- Voltaire
I am most likely not going to vote.
Saying that, is it not my right (based on the US Constitution. And
yes, I know that not eveyone on these groups is American or agrees with
the Constitution) to vote, and to express my opinion, and to
participate in majority rule. Now, these often offer conflicts, but I
see no more reason to call this mans effort "censorship" than to call
the efforts of his detractors be the same name. Does he also not have
the right to express his message, draw followers to his camp, and ask
them to do what he wills? Similar to the efforts of a neo-Nazi group.
So, I can only say that, if you or I disapprove of what he says, then I
agree with his right to say it.
>Craig J. Lipinski, cra...@mindspring.com, wrote;
>Let them create their newsgroup. If you don't like it, don't read it.
>If you're worried about your kids reading it, then you need to screen
>what your kids are doing on line.
By the same reasoning, is it not proper for this man to ask for us to
vote against, and for you to ignore him if you don't like his message?
My (overvalued, unsolicited, inflation reduced) 2 cents.
Lou
<your name>
Craig J. Lipinski wrote:
>
> On Thu, 30 May 1996 20:14:17 -0400, "Paul Hanlin, Jr."
> <pau...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> Hey, I may totally disagree with these people's message, but I do
> believe in the constitution of the united states - which gives them
> the right to free speech.
>
> If you're worried about your kids reading it, then you need to screen
> what your kids are doing on line.
>
> -Craig
Exactly!! who is the real Nazi here anyway?
Richard Gadsden
Paul Hanlin, Jr. wrote:
>
> Please distribute the following message as you seem appropriate.
>
> called rec.music.white-power, so that they can get their message of
> discussion areas on the Internet and their formation requires enough
> support from the Internet community. >EACH AND EVERY ONE OF YOU HAS
> ONE VOTE when it comes to creating a new Usenet group. I hope you will
> vote NO and thereby tell these Nazis you don't want their stuff on the
> net. Below is the procedure, please repos my plea and get the NO vote
> out. This is my personal opinion. If you want to see the official
> call for votes, you can. Do _not_ vote twice - that would constitute
> voting fraud.
This message, if it weren't for the fact that the vote closed two
months ago, would be pitiful.
I voted (in time, thanks) against the group. Not because the
people who were proposing it are violent and unpleasant
people trying to promote a violent and disgusting cause
(though they are). That's not a good reason; I voted against
it because I didn't believe they were going to discuss
music on it. There has been (do a search) a total of three
posts since AltaVista was set up on Skrewdriver, the best
known "White Power" group. I think there's one more archived
on DejaNews, which is a few months older.
So if no-one is discussing "White Power" music, what are they going
to discuss on rec.music.white-power...well, it's obvious really:
they're going to discuss the politics behind it.
Personally, I believe in freedom of speech, but this group
is guaranteed to turn into a massive flamewar, unless there's
a large number of people discussing the music - and even then,
a moderator to keep all the flamage out would be a seriously
good idea.
If I were running a newsserver at a small music college,
then I would certainly take all the rec.music groups, and
likely none of the political groups, because they are huge
and I wouldn't have space for them. If a huge political
group gets shoved into rec.music, then there's total chaos.
After all groups have names so people know what the
contents are, otherwise they'd be simply group 1, group 2, ...,
group 30,000.
If the Nazis want a group for discussing racist politics,
then they can have one....how about talk.politics.racist?
But they insisted on rec.music.white-power....seems like a
deliberate effort to try to get themselves censored to me.
If fans of bands like Skrewdriver want to discuss those bands
on the internet, and they can't do so in a general music
group, because they get flamed too much (fair enough!),
then I'd say that they'll get flamed on their own group,
so they'd be best off moderated. But did they
consider a moderator....no, of course they didn't.
--
Richard Gadsden C.R.G...@politics.hull.ac.uk
"I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right
to say it" - Voltaire
Permission granted for email to be posted on Usenet or forwarded to any
other email address. No other permission granted under copyright laws
unless stated otherwise
k...@humerus.mae.cornell.edu
First M. Lastname (ljb...@psuvm.psu.edu) wrote:
: >Alfred Potrzebie, m...@eden.com wrote;
: > Paul Hanlin, Jr. <pau...@ix.netcom.com> blathered the following:
: >u==> Please distribute the following message as you seem appropriate.
: >[call for censorship snipped]
: >u==> THANKS
: >u==> Paul
: >"I disapprove of what you say but I will defend to the death your right
: >to say it." -- Voltaire
: I am most likely not going to vote.
ditto
: Saying that, is it not my right (based on the US Constitution. And
: yes, I know that not eveyone on these groups is American or agrees with
: the Constitution) to vote, and to express my opinion, and to
: participate in majority rule. Now, these often offer conflicts, but I
: see no more reason to call this mans effort "censorship" than to call
I see a difference (not to say there IS one).
: the efforts of his detractors be the same name. Does he also not have
: the right to express his message, draw followers to his camp, and ask
: them to do what he wills? Similar to the efforts of a neo-Nazi group.
: So, I can only say that, if you or I disapprove of what he says, then I
: agree with his right to say it.
Agreed. I see some of the same issues you raise in the 'tolerance' debate -
if you are truly tolerant, you must also be tolerant of the intolerant.
The difference I see is that in his case, he wishes to keep one group from
expressing their ideas; he does not wish to debate them, challenge them or
repudiate them - he wishes to eliminate their expression. Noone in this
group is saying that to him (such as "Use your sysadmin powers to delete his
posting; don't propagate his request...") - they are merely challenging the
ideas he has presented and expressed reluctance to follow them (and gave the
reason for that). Equivalently, the origianl poster could join the nazi
group and challenge them and their ideas. Silencing them is censorship.
: >Craig J. Lipinski, cra...@mindspring.com, wrote;
: >Let them create their newsgroup. If you don't like it, don't read it.
: >If you're worried about your kids reading it, then you need to screen
: >what your kids are doing on line.
: By the same reasoning, is it not proper for this man to ask for us to
: vote against, and for you to ignore him if you don't like his message?
It is "proper" in the sense that he has the "right" to ask. The idea he
proposes is not proper.
Kirk
William Lane
If I have to listen to that ASSHOLE Farrakhan talk
shit 'bout white folk then I think a white-power newsgroup is
just fine. They've got black power, they've got brown power
why not white power? I for one am fucking sick and tired ob
of being the excuse for eveyone else's problems. BTW, fuck
affirmative action!
Old Salt
{This is a usenet posting, carbon copied to poster, There is no need
to reply to this E-Mail unless you don't see it in the newsgroup you
posted to}cra...@mindspring.com (Craig J. Lipinski) had this to say
about Re: PLEASE READ! NEO NAZI USENET GROUP CFV...:
->On Thu, 30 May 1996 20:14:17 -0400, "Paul Hanlin, Jr."
-><pau...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
->
->Hey, I may totally disagree with these people's message, but I do
->believe in the constitution of the united states - which gives them
->the right to free speech.
->
->Let them create their newsgroup. If you don't like it, don't read it.
->If you're worried about your kids reading it, then you need to screen
->what your kids are doing on line.
->
->Just my views... Flame if you like.
Well if I am going to flame you it would be about not editing
your reply. Not what your reply said. True the first poster who wishes
to ban freespeach didn't either, but by his post I took him for a
nutcase anyway. But the only Nazis in c.s.i.p.g.strategic are the ones
under my command and they have no time to do any posting. ;)
___ ___
______ ______ | | | | ______
=====[______] =====[______] | | | | [______]======
****************old-...@worldnet.att.net**************************
*"Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose" Sung by J*
*Dictionaries? We don't need no stinkin' dictionaries. Joplin *
* I rather be right, then Politically Correct *
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
><Canter & Siegel the Bottom feeders of "Green Card" spammers>
Old Salt
{This is a usenet posting, carbon copied to poster, There is no need
to reply to this E-Mail unless you don't see it in the newsgroup you
about Re: PLEASE READ! NEO NAZI USENET GROUP CFV...:
->I am most likely not going to vote.
->Saying that, is it not my right (based on the US Constitution. And
->yes, I know that not eveyone on these groups is American or agrees with
->the Constitution) to vote, and to express my opinion, and to
->participate in majority rule. Now, these often offer conflicts, but I
->see no more reason to call this mans effort "censorship" than to call
->the efforts of his detractors be the same name. Does he also not have
->the right to express his message, draw followers to his camp, and ask
->them to do what he wills? Similar to the efforts of a neo-Nazi group.
->So, I can only say that, if you or I disapprove of what he says, then I
->agree with his right to say it.
But do you agree to his right to spam it?
Richard Cave
William Lane (wl...@csulb.edu) wrote:
: If I have to listen to that ASSHOLE Farrakhan talk
: shit 'bout white folk then I think a white-power newsgroup is
: just fine. They've got black power, they've got brown power
: why not white power? I for one am fucking sick and tired ob
At least part of this post made sense.
: of being the excuse for eveyone else's problems. BTW, fuck
: affirmative action!
Richard
SteamFax
To vote or not to vote? Nazism as well as communism or any other hate or
predjudiced based philosophy is a an evil and corrupt philosophy.
However, if we vote to limit their access, somebody may vote to limit
OURs. And if the vote flies and they are banned, somebody can use that as
a precident to limit other, non-neo nazi groups simply because they
disagree with them.
One thing about the internet, if we don't like their tripe, nobody is
twisting our arm to read their newsgroup.
Old Salt
{This is a usenet posting, carbon copied to poster, There is no need
to reply to this E-Mail unless you don't see it in the newsgroup you
PLEASE READ! NEO NAZI USENET GROUP CFV...:
-> If I have to listen to that ASSHOLE Farrakhan talk
->shit 'bout white folk then I think a white-power newsgroup is
->just fine. They've got black power, they've got brown power
->why not white power? I for one am fucking sick and tired ob
->of being the excuse for eveyone else's problems. BTW, fuck
->affirmative action!
Just made my kill file.
Charles J Johnson Jr.
William Lane wrote:
>
> If I have to listen to that ASSHOLE Farrakhan talk
Hey! You're repressing me! : ) Do they even have a Farrakhan
newsgroup? Anyway, Farrakhan is a nutcase. He speaks for a very small
minority of a minority. : ) White supremacists and neo-nazi's are
nutcases and also represent a small percentage of Americans. I doubt
the message sent by either group is going to sweep across America,
poisoning the minds of our youth. IMHO, most of the members of groups
like these seem to be a little screwed up to begin with.
Nikki Brand
On 31 May 1996 16:14:36 GMT, ljb...@psuvm.psu.edu (First M. Lastname) wrote:
>>Alfred Potrzebie, m...@eden.com wrote;
>> Paul Hanlin, Jr. <pau...@ix.netcom.com> blathered the following
<snip snip snip etc>
I saw posts similar to this a year ago. Stop calling attention to hate groups,
it does nothing but alert potential followers, and wastes the bandwidth for
the rest of us. Let them have their newsgroup - it will give the feds
something to lurk for.
John Caporale
Sidath Jayawardena wrote:
> Whoa, man...is that like censorship, man? No way, after all, the good
> guys are doing it so it CAN'T be wrong! (Remember what Voltaire wrote?)
>
> Jaliya
Didn't Voltaire say something along the lines of, "I do not agree with
your opinion but I will die for it." (?)
Caporale
Dave Glue
>Exactly!! who is the real Nazi here anyway?
And as witnessed by Alt.religion.scientology, perhaps letting them
create groups is _good_. Subverting this kind of thing romanticizes
it- get them out in the open, and the smell of their bullshit will be
exposed to more people. The scientology newsgroup is probably one of
the worst things that could have happened to that criminal cult.
Create the group. And of course, we have the right to post in there
as well. :)
Dave Glue
On 31 May 1996 17:43:51 GMT, wl...@csulb.edu (William Lane) wrote:
> If I have to listen to that ASSHOLE Farrakhan talk
>shit 'bout white folk then I think a white-power newsgroup is
>just fine. They've got black power, they've got brown power
>why not white power? I for one am fucking sick and tired ob
>of being the excuse for eveyone else's problems. BTW, fuck
>affirmative action!
So basically, your plan is to fight stupidity with stupidity.
At least you're well armed.
Joel Adams
>
>Hey, I may totally disagree with these people's message, but I do
>
I don't mean this particularly nastily or anything but have people
noticed that only the Americans use their constitution to justify things
on an INTERNATIONAL newsgroup.
I mean you don't get French, or Malaysian people producing an argument
and justifying it by saying that it is in their constitution.
--
Joel Adams
Rob Pitman
In article <4onb4n$q...@hatathli.csulb.edu>, wl...@csulb.edu says...
>
> If I have to listen to that ASSHOLE Farrakhan talk
>shit 'bout white folk then I think a white-power newsgroup is
>just fine. They've got black power, they've got brown power
>why not white power? I for one am fucking sick and tired ob
>of being the excuse for eveyone else's problems. BTW, fuck
>affirmative action!
Well, *Thats* taking it a tad too far isn't it? Two wrongs
do not make a right. I will vote yes, simply because they have
just as much right to converse about their shallow bigot
philosophy as we do to discuss why on earth we can't get a
fair amount of strikeouts in Hardball 5. :)
Rob Pitman
>I don't mean this particularly nastily or anything but have people
>noticed that only the Americans use their constitution to justify things
>on an INTERNATIONAL newsgroup.
>
>I mean you don't get French, or Malaysian people producing an argument
>and justifying it by saying that it is in their constitution.
If the organization that wants this newsgroup is in the US, then
it falls under the juristiction of our Constitution.
Why should we feel sorry, apologetic or repress ourselves just
because we can speak out where, sadly, others cannot?
Commander Spock
>>
>>Hey, I may totally disagree with these people's message, but I do
>>believe in the constitution of the united states - which gives them
>>the right to free speech.
>>
>
>I don't mean this particularly nastily or anything but have people
>noticed that only the Americans use their constitution to justify things
>on an INTERNATIONAL newsgroup.
>
>I mean you don't get French, or Malaysian people producing an argument
>and justifying it by saying that it is in their constitution.
>--
>Joel Adams
Uh, Joel... Having an inferiority complex?
Hehheheh..
- Rich
Joel Adams
In article <4opa7b$a...@crow.cybercomm.net>, Rob Pitman
<mad...@cybercomm.net> writes
>
>>I don't mean this particularly nastily or anything but have people
>>noticed that only the Americans use their constitution to justify things
>>on an INTERNATIONAL newsgroup.
>>
>>I mean you don't get French, or Malaysian people producing an argument
>>and justifying it by saying that it is in their constitution.
>
>it falls under the juristiction of our Constitution.
>
>Why should we feel sorry, apologetic or repress ourselves just
>because we can speak out where, sadly, others cannot?
>
I wasn't suggesting that you feel "apologetic" or anything about your
constitution.
I was trying to make point that to a European or other non American
supporting your argumentsby saying that it is in agreement with the
principles of your constitution is not very usefull.
I just felt it showed somthing about American attiutes that this was
done. It wasn't a criticism as such although it does show either pride
or naiviety (or both) that some Americans think their constitution is
held in such high regard outside of their country.
--
Joel Adams
fla...@interramp.com
I'll send this to you personally :)
This is paraphrased from the post I had just made....
The use of the Constitution by Amercans is justifiable and has helped
the world more often thanb naught. Or what, have you never read a
history book?
You use France as an example? I'll tell you why Frenchman have no
business bitching!
First the ideals of the Constitution of the US provided the platform for
the French Revolution to overthrow the Monarchy.
Second, and last, All of the European Community should be overjoyed at
the mention of the Constitution of the US. Had there never been a
constitution of the US, well, There wouldn't be a France, England,
Italy, Austria, etc today or have we forgotten who saved whose ass in
WWI, and WWII. Well, so as not to be misunderstood, the Americans saved
everybodies ass in Europe.
Your Welcome :)
fla...@interramp.com
Joel Adams wrote:
>
> >
> >Hey, I may totally disagree with these people's message, but I do
> >believe in the constitution of the united states - which gives them
> >the right to free speech.
> >
>
> noticed that only the Americans use their constitution to justify things
> on an INTERNATIONAL newsgroup.
>
> I mean you don't get French, or Malaysian people producing an argument
> and justifying it by saying that it is in their constitution.
> Joel Adams
Well, seeing as how parts of the european community can't even have a
little gore in there game I can see that they are already being censored
, and if I remember the whole telecommunications decency act was signed
right around the time a portion of the European Community was trying to
ban many of our on-line services. and IMHO most of the world doesn't
have the experience with freedom in general, remember that if it weren't
for the American Constitution the Revolutions in France etc, would never
have occured, and instead of being the Socialist they are today they'd
still be like the British with a King or a Queen in charge... oooh
that's a winner. Also, if it hadn't been for our constitution and the
ideals presented there-in the whole of the European Community would have
been sucked in under the Third-Reich. Oh, but we forget about stuff
like that don't we? Rather than complaining about the US Citizens using
the Constitution you should be thanking us for it!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Libertine
>Well, so as not to be misunderstood, the Americans saved
> everybodies ass in Europe.
> Your Welcome :)
i'm sick of people like you.
being patriotic is one thing.
being ethnocentric is another.
but you're just a dumb ass.
and no, i'm not from europe.
but i think you should get out of the country, state, or town that you
live in and look around. maybe you'll learn something.
Rob Pitman
>I was trying to make point that to a European or other non American
>supporting your argumentsby saying that it is in agreement with the
>principles of your constitution is not very usefull.
I understand. Weather or not it is in agreement with our
constitution should never be an issue unless its happening
here.
>I just felt it showed somthing about American attiutes that this was
>done. It wasn't a criticism as such although it does show either pride
>or naiviety (or both) that some Americans think their constitution is
>held in such high regard outside of their country.
Having seen what people of some other nations go through, I
would like to think that its pride.
Sidath Jayawardena
Paul Hanlin, Jr. wrote:
>
> Please distribute the following message as you seem appropriate.
>
> called rec.music.white-power, so that they can get their message of
> hate out to young people using the Internet. Newsgroups are public
> discussion areas on the Internet and their formation requires enough
> support from the Internet community. >EACH AND EVERY ONE OF YOU HAS
> ONE VOTE when it comes to creating a new Usenet group. I hope you will
> vote NO and thereby tell these Nazis you don't want their stuff on the
> net. Below is the procedure, please repos my plea and get the NO vote
> out. This is my personal opinion. If you want to see the official
> call for votes, you can. Do _not_ vote twice - that would constitute
> voting fraud.
Whoa, man...is that like censorship, man? No way, after all, the good
Rob Pitman
Ethnocentric? Ummm. Pardon me, but the last time I checked my
history books, they concurred with what he said, so IMHO he
is guilty of nothing more than telling the truth.
Lord Marcus Dracon
Take this faeces and post it somewhere else this is for games not some
quasi poltical mumbo jumbo. Freedom of speech and expression is dying
on the Net as it is.
Id nonus gratum anus rodentum
Dave Glue
On 1 Jun 1996 18:25:46 GMT, mad...@cybercomm.net (Rob Pitman) wrote:
>>I just felt it showed somthing about American attiutes that this was
>>done. It wasn't a criticism as such although it does show either pride
>>or naiviety (or both) that some Americans think their constitution is
>>held in such high regard outside of their country.
>
>Having seen what people of some other nations go through, I
>would like to think that its pride.
Compared to what? What people of Canada go through? Britian? France?
Sweden? I'm sure most countries look good compared to Iraq's
standardard of living, but I think most American pride is based on
ignorance.
Tom Pancoast
fla...@interramp.com wrote:
>All of the European Community should be overjoyed at
>the mention of the Constitution of the US. Had there never been a
>constitution of the US, well, There wouldn't be a France, England,
>Italy, Austria, etc today or have we forgotten who saved whose ass in
>WWI, and WWII. Well, so as not to be misunderstood, the Americans saved
>everybodies ass in Europe.
>Your Welcome :)
A fair number of a fore fathers owned slaves, too. Should we claim personal
responsibility for that until the end of time? Some would say yes, but are
you one of them?
---------------------------------------
tpan...@freedomnet.com (Tom Pancoast)
"An object at rest cannot be stopped!"
Joel Adams
In article <31B098...@interramp.com>, fla...@interramp.com writes
>Joel Adams wrote:
>>
>> In article <4opa7b$a...@crow.cybercomm.net>, Rob Pitman
>> <mad...@cybercomm.net> writes
>> >
>> >>noticed that only the Americans use their constitution to justify things
>> >>on an INTERNATIONAL newsgroup.
>> >>
>> >>I mean you don't get French, or Malaysian people producing an argument
>> >
>> >If the organization that wants this newsgroup is in the US, then
>> >it falls under the juristiction of our Constitution.
>> >
>> >Why should we feel sorry, apologetic or repress ourselves just
>> >because we can speak out where, sadly, others cannot?
>> >
>>
>> I wasn't suggesting that you feel "apologetic" or anything about your
>> constitution.
>>
>> supporting your argumentsby saying that it is in agreement with the
>> principles of your constitution is not very usefull.
>>
>> done. It wasn't a criticism as such although it does show either pride
>> or naiviety (or both) that some Americans think their constitution is
>> held in such high regard outside of their country.
>> Joel Adams I just posted a response to your earlier message but after this one
>I'll send this to you personally :)
>This is paraphrased from the post I had just made....
>
>The use of the Constitution by Amercans is justifiable and has helped
>the world more often thanb naught. Or what, have you never read a
>history book?
>You use France as an example? I'll tell you why Frenchman have no
>business bitching!
>First the ideals of the Constitution of the US provided the platform for
>the French Revolution to overthrow the Monarchy.
>constitution of the US, well, There wouldn't be a France, England,
>Italy, Austria, etc today or have we forgotten who saved whose ass in
>WWI, and WWII. Well, so as not to be misunderstood, the Americans saved
>everybodies ass in Europe.
>Your Welcome :)
Woah,
America entered WW2 because Japan attacked Pearl Harbour. Your
constitution was the same before and after Pearl Harbour so i fail to
see the connection between your constitution and you entry to the war.
If your constitution was the reason you entered the war why didn't you
enter it in 1939 (instead of leving poor little Britian to have the shit
kicked out of it).
And yes I have read History books... I am studying History at the
moment.
I am not downplaying america's part in WW2 (I freely admit the Americans
and the Russians were the major reasons germany lost rather than the UK)
I just don't see the relevance. This returns to my original point that
Americans use their constitution to justify what seems very odd points
to non American eyes.
I know little about the French revolution but the develpement of
Britains democracy had little to do with America. Rather it was a
gradual decline in the powers of the kinf with Democracy slowly
developing as first the middle classes and the Working classes gained
the right to vote.
Someone in another post said somthing like without the American
constitution most of the European countries would be monarchies. Many of
the ARE monmarchies (of the top of my head Britain, Spain and a number
of the scandanavian countries). They are also democracies because the
Monarch has no real power.
Again I may just being an ignorant Brit (here in the UK we don't even
have a written constitution) but I fail to see the relevance of your
constitution to many of these issues).
--
Joel Adams
Kevin Metcalfe
Rob Pitman wrote:
>
> >>Well, so as not to be misunderstood, the Americans saved
> >> everybodies ass in Europe.
> >> Your Welcome :)
> >
> >
> >being patriotic is one thing.
> >being ethnocentric is another.
> >but you're just a dumb ass.
> >
> >and no, i'm not from europe.
> >
> >but i think you should get out of the country, state, or town that you
> >live in and look around. maybe you'll learn something.
>
> Ethnocentric? Ummm. Pardon me, but the last time I checked my
> history books, they concurred with what he said, so IMHO he
> is guilty of nothing more than telling the truth.
Actually a more realistic view would be that the Soviet union saved "everyone in europe" (keeping a chunk for
a while afterwards), and for info - the USA hasn't been punctual for a world war yet (though for a while it did
look like ron reagun would get them there at the kick off for a change).
--
Regards
Kev, Tish & Fen
(Canine Earthmoving inc)
Thing Fish
>>WWI, and WWII. Well, so as not to be misunderstood, the Americans saved
>>everybodies ass in Europe.
>>Your Welcome :)
>
this must be some kinda sport or game i'm not used too. concidering
these are gaming groups.
by the way i'm neither american or british... i'm a damn earthling. i
dont care about your ideals or where you want to draw you lines in the
sand. we are all alive and if you have a computer to read this then
you are doing better than 90% of the human population. So as you think
of why america is better than britian or what ever..why dont you go
out into the streets and see what the people are eatting. (in any
country) and maybe your petty conplaints will seem not so important
anymore.
Guy Sisalli
fla...@interramp.com wrote:
> Well, seeing as how parts of the european community can't even have a
> little gore in there game I can see that they are already being censored
Excuse me? I've seen some terrible things in european games. It's the
united states where things like that seem to be censored most. I could be
wrong, of course, but that's how it seems.
> , and if I remember the whole telecommunications decency act was signed
> right around the time a portion of the European Community was trying to
> ban many of our on-line services. and IMHO most of the world doesn't
True.
> have the experience with freedom in general, remember that if it weren't
!
Would anyone mind if I succeeded this guy from the union? :)
> for the American Constitution the Revolutions in France etc, would never
> have occured, and instead of being the Socialist they are today they'd
How do you know? Did you see an alternate timeline where neither
occured? I don't know much about the era, but international news couldn't have
been very up to speed. Still. there's exaggerated word-of-mouth from the
sailors to deal with. That might have spurred something, but articles in a
newspaper make not a revolution.
> still be like the British with a King or a Queen in charge... oooh
> that's a winner. Also, if it hadn't been for our constitution and the
Nations seem to be shying away from monarchy-style governments. The
English did it at some point. I don't know when that happened,
either(-smile-), but there's no evidence to support the French sticking with a
monarchy if it wasn't for the united states(We americans all speak in chords,
you know. We have glowing auras and we seem to glitter if you look at us just
right...at least those of us who live on Three Mile Island.).
> ideals presented there-in the whole of the European Community would have
> been sucked in under the Third-Reich. Oh, but we forget about stuff
I don't follow. The US was the deciding factor in the world wars. If
it wasn't for the west, I'm pretty sure Europe would have fallen under
German/Axis control(Of course, the west would have been next to fall. That's
why it's a -world- war. The globe was a potential battleground and it really
didn't matter where or how much of it we fought on.) if the united states
hadn't stepped in. The US took a 'wait and see' attitude when it comes down to
it. We didn't want to get caught up in it unless we absolutly had to.
> like that don't we? Rather than complaining about the US Citizens using
> the Constitution you should be thanking us for it!!!!!!!!!!!!!
At the time, the US constitution was quite a contribution to world
governmental ideology, but it wasn't revolutionary. The ideas were already
written about. The authors of the US constitution simply incorporated what
they had read elsewhere, so please don't exhault it as if it were a grand
miracle document. It wasn't. :) It's also no longer followed by the United
States government. You, as an american, should be well aware of this.
Honestly, I want to apologise. The united states is a good nation and
we've made our fair share of contributions to the world. Some of us have
trouble seeing the world clearly, though. I know I do. :) Take care.
--
This opinion is mastered to Dolby "B" standards for flame reduction. ///
Decrease flame response when reading on non-Dolby equipment. __ ///
gs...@netusa.net *Amiga LIVES...uh, sorta.* \\\///
------------------------------------------------------------------\XX/-------
Daniel J. Redick
fla...@interramp.com wrote:
>The use of the Constitution by Amercans is justifiable and has helped
>the world more often thanb naught. Or what, have you never read a
>history book?
Not the ones in American schools!
>Second, and last, All of the European Community should be overjoyed at
>the mention of the Constitution of the US. Had there never been a
>constitution of the US, well, There wouldn't be a France, England,
>Italy, Austria, etc today or have we forgotten who saved whose ass in
>WWI, and WWII. Well, so as not to be misunderstood, the Americans saved
>everybodies ass in Europe.
The U.S. entered the War in Europe to save its own financial ass!
Great Britian owed the U.S. billions in loans and for military
hardware which the U.S. was capitalizing on very nicely.
If Great Britian had lost the War, the U.S. would have lost the money.
The bottom line is: It was profit from the War that shifted World
power from Great Britian to the U.S.
Perhaps this thread should be moved to an empire.war.games group.
Regards,
Daniel Redick
London, Canada
<dre...@wwdc.com>
Daniel J. Redick
"Her Majesty's a very nice girl, but she doesn't have a lot to say."
- John Lennon
Chris Herbert
Guy Sisalli wrote:
>
> fla...@interramp.com wrote:
>
> > Well, seeing as how parts of the european community can't even have a
<snip>
> Would anyone mind if I succeeded this guy from the union? :)
Not at all.
>
> > for the American Constitution the Revolutions in France etc, would never
<snip>
> monarchy if it wasn't for the united states(We americans all speak in chords,
> you know. We have glowing auras and we seem to glitter if you look at us just
> right...at least those of us who live on Three Mile Island.).
> <snip>
> Honestly, I want to apologise. The united states is a good nation and
> we've made our fair share of contributions to the world. Some of us have
> trouble seeing the world clearly, though. I know I do. :) Take care.
>
> --
> This opinion is mastered to Dolby "B" standards for flame reduction. ///
> Decrease flame response when reading on non-Dolby equipment. __ ///
> gs...@netusa.net *Amiga LIVES...uh, sorta.* \\\///
> ------------------------------------------------------------------\XX/-------
It's nice to see a sensible response to this tripe coming from a "fellow American", and an Amiga user at that.
We "foreigners" don't seem to be taken seriously when we make comments like this. I'm sure that only a small
percentage of US citizens actually carry all that emotional baggage around with views like "we won the wars"
and "Europe owes everything to us" and "we invented democracy". The US was a late entrant to both world wars
and did so on the basis of self interest - hardly the knight in shining armour. The Russians did as much to
stop the Germans in WW2 as the US (witness the "race" for Berlin). Having said that the US has certainly played
a prominent role in international politics in the 20th century, mostly for the good.
Given that North America was settled (by the white man) around the time when Europe was emerging from
Feudalism, you would hope that they wouldn't encumber themselves with a system of government which was going
out of fashion in Europe. With the industrial revolution and the rise of the middle class, Europe was headed
down the path away from monarchies in any case. This is not to say that the US constitution is not a worthy and
valuable document, just that it didn't really shine a light on the rest of the western world. I'm glad that the
US has the constitution it does, I'd just be happier if I didn't see some rabid, poorly educated fool trying to
shove it down my throat so often. I'd also be much happier if the same fools weren't so damn patronising about
their debatable superiority.
In all this is a suprising thread for a "games" newsgroup though, isn't it? (Apologies to readers in
comp.sys.ibm.pc.soundcard.music to whom it is just as irrelevant)
Climbing down from my soapbox (hopefully to make a harder target for those flames),
Chris
Rob Pitman
>>Having seen what people of some other nations go through, I
>>would like to think that its pride.
>
>Compared to what? What people of Canada go through? Britian? France?
>Sweden? I'm sure most countries look good compared to Iraq's
>standardard of living, but I think most American pride is based on
>ignorance.
Ignorance to what? You named 4 nations whos people pretty much
prosper in comparison to others. Is it no coincidence that these
are friends of America? I think not.
What about China my friend? Or Cuba? How about Somalia?
or others like that. Call it what you want pal, but I'd
rather be here than anywhere else.
Craig J. Lipinski
On 31 May 1996 16:14:36 GMT, ljb...@psuvm.psu.edu (First M. Lastname)
wrote:
<SNIP>
>>Craig J. Lipinski, cra...@mindspring.com, wrote;
>>Let them create their newsgroup. If you don't like it, don't read it.
>>If you're worried about your kids reading it, then you need to screen
>>what your kids are doing on line.
>
>By the same reasoning, is it not proper for this man to ask for us to
>vote against, and for you to ignore him if you don't like his message?
>
<SNIP>
>Lou
No, He has the right to ask, I have the right to say he's wrong, and
you have the right to ignore us if you want to...
-Craig
Philipp Leibfried
In article <31B1F7...@netusa.net>, Guy Sisalli <gs...@netusa.net> writes:
|> fla...@interramp.com wrote:
|>
|> > Well, seeing as how parts of the european community can't even have a
|>
|> Excuse me? I've seen some terrible things in european games. It's the
|> united states where things like that seem to be censored most. I could be
|> wrong, of course, but that's how it seems.
Hmmm ? It seems to me that the Americans are much more eager to censor sex
than violence in computer games, movies, etc. while the Europeans are a little
oversensitive about violence.
Just my $0.02
- Philipp
ph...@karlsruhe.netsurf.de
Tom Pancoast
mad...@cybercomm.net (Rob Pitman) wrote:
>Ignorance to what? You named 4 nations whos people pretty much
>prosper in comparison to others. Is it no coincidence that these
>are friends of America? I think not.
>
>What about China my friend? Or Cuba? How about Somalia?
>or others like that. Call it what you want pal, but I'd
>rather be here than anywhere else.
I'm beginning to get a better understanding of some other countries'
attitudes towards Americans. At least we mean well.
Mark H. Hurt
Paul Hanlin, Jr. wrote:
>
> Please distribute the following message as you seem appropriate.
>
> A group of neo-nazis are trying to form a newsgroup on Usenet
> called rec.music.white-power, so that they can get their message of
> hate out to young people using the Internet. Newsgroups are public
> discussion areas on the Internet and their formation requires enough
> support from the Internet community.
The remedy to hateful speech is more speech. Censoring the purveyor of
offensive ideas will only drive the believers underground. The myth of
absolute white superiority will fall of its own weight and should not be
given creedence by being labeled as a dangerous idea and worthy of
censorship. In making this call for censorship, folks have indulged in
a form of fascism themselves.
My two cents.
Howard Ship
m...@news.eden.com (Alfred Potrzebie) writes,
> Paul Hanlin, Jr. <pau...@ix.netcom.com> blathered the following:
> u==> Please distribute the following message as you seem
appropriate.
>
> [call for censorship snipped]
>
> u==> THANKS
> u==> Paul
>
Wrong! Wrong! This is not a call for censorship, since censorship
can only be accomplished by a goverment, that is, by a legal
procedure.
This is a call for censuring (check my spelling), that is, a group
decides FOR ITSELF what is apprpriate. Here the only question is
'what is a group', but the reasonable practices of Usenet state that
'the group' is everyone who uses Usenet.
I have every right to say "I do not wish this group to exist" ... they
can find any number of other methods to communicate their message,
which I personally find objectionable.
Christopher Wood
In article <4ov84u$c...@nz12.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de>,
ph...@karlsruhe.netsurf.de (Philipp Leibfried ) wrote:
>
> Hmmm ? It seems to me that the Americans are much more eager to censor sex
> than violence in computer games, movies, etc. while the Europeans are a little
> oversensitive about violence.
They do seem oversensitive, but then again they don't allow violence on
their streets and in thier homes as much as we Americans do.
-Christopher
Dan Bongard
Philipp Leibfried (ph...@karlsruhe.netsurf.de) wrote:
>Guy Sisalli <gs...@netusa.net> writes:
>> fla...@interramp.com wrote:
>>> Well, seeing as how parts of the european community can't even have a
>>> little gore in there game I can see that they are already being censored
>> I could be
>> wrong, of course, but that's how it seems.
> than violence in computer games, movies, etc. while the Europeans are a little
> oversensitive about violence.
Whereas the Japanese have sex AND violence in their TV and video games.
Clearly a superior culture, IMO. :)
-- Dan
William Lane
: Hmmm ? It seems to me that the Americans are much more eager to censor sex
: than violence in computer games, movies, etc. while the Europeans are a little
: oversensitive about violence.
And yet even though we have censorship of violence, 20,000
people are shot to death a year in this fucked up country. I don't
beleive this figure includes everyone knifed or beaten to death
either. There's one thing you can say 'bout the USA: "fastest growing
prison population in the industrialized world." Someone was shot to
death three weeks ago not a MILE from where I live. I'd think the
wisest thing for you Europeans to do would be to NUKE the US before
the disease spreads...
Charles J Johnson Jr.
Why don't you give them a hand? You could start with yourself.
DLRapp
> At the time, the US constitution was quite a contribution to world
>governmental ideology, but it wasn't revolutionary. The ideas were already
>written about. The authors of the US constitution simply incorporated what
>they had read elsewhere, so please don't exhault it as if it were a grand
>miracle document. It wasn't. :) It's also no longer followed by the United
>States government. You, as an american, should be well aware of this.
> Honestly, I want to apologise. The united states is a good nation and
>we've made our fair share of contributions to the world. Some of us have
>trouble seeing the world clearly, though. I know I do. :) Take care.
You are correct on the above. Our forefathers "borrowed" the constitution.
In fact, they got it directly from the "Five Nations" coalition of Native
Americans (Algonquin, I think). At least, that was one of the tribes.
You see from history how wonderfully we applied it's principles to them.
As for the white separatist/supremacist/militia/whatever who started this
thread; I have a comment for him and all his counterparts of all races
in my country. It's an old comment used by the ultraconservatives in the
1960's. America, love it or leave it. You used it often enough on us
liberals back then; now the shoe is on the other foot. Follow your own
advice. I don't care to live in a Bosnian society.
Now, back to games.
Vice Sunjara
"Paul Hanlin, Jr." <pau...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Please distribute the following message as you seem appropriate.
>
> called rec.music.white-power, so that they can get their message of
> hate out to young people using the Internet. Newsgroups are public
> discussion areas on the Internet and their formation requires enough
> ONE VOTE when it comes to creating a new Usenet group. I hope you will
> vote NO and thereby tell these Nazis you don't want their stuff on the
> net. Below is the procedure, please repos my plea and get the NO vote
> out. This is my personal opinion. If you want to see the official
> call for votes, you can. Do _not_ vote twice - that would constitute
> voting fraud.
>
>
The vote is over and rec.music.white-power was *rejected* with an
overwhelming majority. The vote-taker has asked all of you to
_STOP_ posting this message to newsgroups and to _STOP_ sending
him votes. You can read all about it in news.announce.newgroups.
Thanks.
--
/------------------------------------------------------------------------\\
| Vice Sunjara V. Gimnazija "V. Nazor" ::
| vsun...@jagor.srce.hr Split, Croatia ::
\:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::'
jwilliam
dav...@interlog.com (Dave Glue) wrote:
>On 31 May 1996 17:43:51 GMT, wl...@csulb.edu (William Lane) wrote:
>> If I have to listen to that ASSHOLE Farrakhan talk
>>shit 'bout white folk then I think a white-power newsgroup is
>>just fine. They've got black power, they've got brown power
>>why not white power? I for one am fucking sick and tired ob
>>of being the excuse for eveyone else's problems. BTW, fuck
>>affirmative action!
>So basically, your plan is to fight stupidity with stupidity.
>At least you're well armed.
Heh heh...I liked that. Good one. Kinda like a battle of wits
between unarmed opponents.
________
jwil...@water.net
K. L. Markworth
In <4ot736$7...@sky.wwdc.com> dre...@wwdc.com (Daniel J. Redick)
writes:
Ahem... "Her Majesty's a PRETTY nice girl..." Not even a full-fledged
compliment there.
Daniele Beccari
fla...@interramp.com wrote:
>
> Well, seeing as how parts of the european community can't even have a
> little gore in there game I can see that they are already being censored
> , and if I remember the whole telecommunications decency act was signed
> right around the time a portion of the European Community was trying to
> ban many of our on-line services. and IMHO most of the world doesn't
> have the experience with freedom in general, remember that if it weren't
> for the American Constitution the Revolutions in France etc, would never
> have occured, and instead of being the Socialist they are today they'd
> still be like the British with a King or a Queen in charge... oooh
> that's a winner. Also, if it hadn't been for our constitution and the
> ideals presented there-in the whole of the European Community would have
> been sucked in under the Third-Reich. Oh, but we forget about stuff
> like that don't we? Rather than complaining about the US Citizens using
> the Constitution you should be thanking us for it!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well then thank you, Mr. flasbak.
And by the way, you are free to sign your messages with your name.
Daniele Beccari
--
I speak for myself, not for my employer.
John Stewart
In <31B098...@interramp.com>, fla...@interramp.com writes:
[Snip]
>The use of the Constitution by Amercans is justifiable and has helped
>the world more often thanb naught. Or what, have you never read a
>history book?
>You use France as an example? I'll tell you why Frenchman have no
>business bitching!
>First the ideals of the Constitution of the US provided the platform for
>the French Revolution to overthrow the Monarchy.
>Second, and last, All of the European Community should be overjoyed at
>the mention of the Constitution of the US. Had there never been a
>constitution of the US, well, There wouldn't be a France, England,
>Italy, Austria, etc today or have we forgotten who saved whose ass in
>WWI, and WWII. Well, so as not to be misunderstood, the Americans saved
>everybodies ass in Europe.
>Your Welcome :)
Hmm, a little simplistic view of history, maybe?
I don't think the people of France or the USA are any freer than any of their
neighbours living in modern monarchies. In Europe, monarchies usually have nothing
to do with government, and are mostly quite popular. In most cases, monarchs
are respected more than politicians. Of course, this wasn't always so...
Unfortunately we live in a world of Realpolitik where morality largely takes a back
seat to expediency. in this sense, I don't see that the USA's constitution should be
held up any higher than constitutions (written or not) of, for example, many
European countries.
As well as 'saving our asses', the USA in recent history has also been responsible
for actions such as supporting some very oppressive regimes in Latin America,
putting into power (and then regretting it) the delightful Muammar Ghaddafi,
supplying arms to Indonesia for their invasion and continuing brutal occupation
of East Timor, to name but a few.
Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not defending many of my country's (UK)
international actions (and inactions) as being particularly better - we also sell
arms to Indonesia (Hawk jets are reported to be used for bombing villages in
East Timor), our 'Arms to Iraq' scandal ranked similarly to the 'Iran/Contra' affair,
and our Bosnia policy has been nothing to be proud of (Bosnia, we won't let you
defend yourself, and we wont defend you either). How 'safe' is Srebrenica now?
The world today, as always, has been governed by national self-interests and doing
what you can get away with. The addition of democracy as a factor has modified
how this works, but not changed the fundamentals. Governments very rarely do
anything for altruistic reasons - democracies have to pander to public opinion
which is often misguided and can be manipulated.
Who was it that said -
"You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the
time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time" ?
On another 'constitution' note, I'm sure glad my country doesn't have gun ownership
laws like the one in the USA constitution. Legitimate sport shooters should have
no fear of extensive regulation designed to keep guns out of illegitimate hands.
Finally, in terms of what this thread is about, is censorship the answer to
prejudice and bigotry? I'm not sure that it is.
JBS
Mark H. Hurt
Mark H. Hurt wrote:
>
> Paul Hanlin, Jr. wrote:
> >
> > Please distribute the following message as you seem appropriate.
> >
> > A group of neo-nazis are trying to form a newsgroup on Usenet
> > called rec.music.white-power, so that they can get their message of
> > hate out to young people using the Internet. Newsgroups are public
> > discussion areas on the Internet and their formation requires enough
> > support from the Internet community.
>
> offensive ideas will only drive the believers underground. The myth of
> absolute white superiority will fall of its own weight and should not be
> given creedence by being labeled as a dangerous idea and worthy of
> censorship. In making this call for censorship, folks have indulged in
> a form of fascism themselves.
>
> My two cents.
In followup: I heard that the final vote count was
Pro Newsgroup: ~600
Anti Newsgroup: ~34,000
The result was a evidently a record turnout for such a contest. OK,
well I guess we know how **POPULAR** white supremacy hate mongers are.
They are not popular!! So then why do we need to worry about these
unpopular ideas enough to be afraid of them. The espoused views of such
groups are generally irrational. Irrational people will believe
irrational things sometimes. However, I for one believe that we
(humans) are generally **rational**. Therefore, I do not believe that
the white supremacy message is dangerous to **rational** people. In
fact, rational people will poke those ideas full of holes. Irrational
people on the other hand will not be swayed by reason.
LET IN THE LIGHT!
Sidath Jayawardena
John Caporale wrote:
>
> Sidath Jayawardena wrote:
> > Whoa, man...is that like censorship, man? No way, after all, the good
> > guys are doing it so it CAN'T be wrong! (Remember what Voltaire wrote?)
> >
> > Jaliya
>
> Didn't Voltaire say something along the lines of, "I do not agree with
> your opinion but I will die for it." (?)
> Caporale
Close enough. "I may not agree with what you have to say but I will
defend to the death your right to say it." That man had a way of putting
things...
Jaliya
Errico Teotonico
mar...@wr.com.au (Lord Marcus Dracon) wrote:
>Take this faeces and post it somewhere else this is for games not some
>quasi poltical mumbo jumbo. Freedom of speech and expression is dying
>on the Net as it is.
>Id nonus gratum anus rodentum
"......I have a dream of a world free of racism where man are created
equal and where there are non borders and no skin colors
difference.........."
----------------------------------------------------------
Errico Teotonico (err...@iol.it)
age 34
Police officer
My home town page is http://www.roma2000.it
My personal home page is "http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/4827"
Phone: +39-6-4073566
fax : +39-6-4073566 (call voice first)
Home address:
Via fossacesia 54
00156 Roma Italia
----------------------------------------------------------
Steve Griffin
"Mark H. Hurt" <MH...@sfaids.ucsf.edu> wrote:
>Mark H. Hurt wrote:
>>
>>(snip, snip)
>In followup: I heard that the final vote count was
>
>Pro Newsgroup: ~600
>
>Anti Newsgroup: ~34,000
>
>The result was a evidently a record turnout for such a contest. OK,
>well I guess we know how **POPULAR** white supremacy hate mongers are.
>They are not popular!! So then why do we need to worry about these
>unpopular ideas enough to be afraid of them. The espoused views of such
>groups are generally irrational. Irrational people will believe
>irrational things sometimes. However, I for one believe that we
>(humans) are generally **rational**. Therefore, I do not believe that
>the white supremacy message is dangerous to **rational** people. In
>fact, rational people will poke those ideas full of holes. Irrational
>people on the other hand will not be swayed by reason.
>
>LET IN THE LIGHT!
So, human beings are generally rational, eh? I guess that explains why
Hitler was appointed Chancellor and the Nazi party got 44% of the vote on
March 5, 1933, the day of the last democratic elections in Germany until
after the war. I'm not necessarily arguing for censorship, but one has
only to look at history to see that human beings are often times anything
but rational, and often make horrendous, tragic decisions that, when we
look back, make us ask "Why?"
Steve Griffin
David James Isham
In article <4p59bo$a...@tribune.concentric.net>,
Steve Griffin <sg...@concentric.net> wrote:
>
>So, human beings are generally rational, eh? I guess that explains why
>Hitler was appointed Chancellor and the Nazi party got 44% of the vote on
>March 5, 1933, the day of the last democratic elections in Germany until
>after the war. I'm not necessarily arguing for censorship, but one has
>only to look at history to see that human beings are often times anything
>but rational, and often make horrendous, tragic decisions that, when we
>look back, make us ask "Why?"
I bet it sure is easy sitting in your barco-lounger looking back at
50 years worth of history and casting judgement on an entire nation.
When the Nazi party won the elections they were just as good a choice of a
party as any. What they stood for and the hope they gave the German people
led to their victory. Based on the information at that time it was the
"rational" thing to do. If Hitler and his gang had made a few changes in
their plans they could have changed the outcome of the war and we might
still be hearing about the Nazis. Just think, if Hitler had won the war
in Europe and provided Germany with more "living space" (leibenstrauss?)
modern day Germans would be saying "Gosh, that was quite a rational decision
that we voted for the Nazis." Whether humans are rational or not depends
on whether you agree with them or not. It is a purely relative term.
Hitler felt his 'Final Solution' was rational, the allies didn't agree.
The allies won the war, so they get to write the history books and determine
who was the rational one.
dave
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Isham
Environmental Engineering Flush Hard, It's a LONG way to
Cal Poly, San Luis Obispo the next town.......
dis...@oboe.aix.calpoly.edu
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew Duncan
>dav...@interlog.com (Dave Glue) wrote:
>
>>On 31 May 1996 17:43:51 GMT, wl...@csulb.edu (William Lane) wrote:
>
>>> If I have to listen to that ASSHOLE Farrakhan talk
>>>shit 'bout white folk then I think a white-power newsgroup is
>>>just fine. They've got black power, they've got brown power
>>>why not white power? I for one am fucking sick and tired ob
>>>of being the excuse for eveyone else's problems. BTW, fuck
>>>affirmative action!
>
>>So basically, your plan is to fight stupidity with stupidity.
Easy pal. What do you think affirmative action is? It's fighting
racism with racism where the racism initially being fought doesn't
even exist half the time. I'd call that fighting nothing with
stupidity. Seems a lot worse to me than fighting stupidity
with stupidity. At least there's a real opponent in the latter.
Matt.
--
M. Duncan University of Toronto Toronto, Ontario Canada -------
Email: dun...@psych.utoronto.ca ---------------------------------
Rob Pitman
>If Hitler and his gang had made a few changes in
>their plans they could have changed the outcome of the war and we might
>still be hearing about the Nazis. Just think, if Hitler had won the war
>in Europe and provided Germany with more "living space" (leibenstrauss?)
>modern day Germans would be saying "Gosh, that was quite a rational
decision
Gosh, I suppose the slaughter of 6 million Jews was a rational thing to
do too eh? Idiot!
The allies do not get to write the history books simply because they
won the war. Everyone knows what happened and how it happened. How
people like you want to perceive it is your own problem.
This is a games newsgroup. I pledge right here and now to NO
longer respond to this thread. I think we should all do the same.
Not only is it off topic, but its getting very ugly and OLD.
>dave
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sidath Jayawardena
Craig J. Lipinski wrote:
>
> On 31 May 1996 16:14:36 GMT, ljb...@psuvm.psu.edu (First M. Lastname)
> wrote:
>
> <SNIP>
> >>Craig J. Lipinski, cra...@mindspring.com, wrote;
> >>Let them create their newsgroup. If you don't like it, don't read it.
> >>If you're worried about your kids reading it, then you need to screen
> >>what your kids are doing on line.
> >
> >By the same reasoning, is it not proper for this man to ask for us to
> >vote against, and for you to ignore him if you don't like his message?
> >
> <SNIP>
> >Lou
He may have the right to ask. But not in this ****ing newsgroup!
Jaliya
William Lane
: Easy pal. What do you think affirmative action is? It's fighting
: racism with racism where the racism initially being fought doesn't
: even exist half the time. I'd call that fighting nothing with
: stupidity. Seems a lot worse to me than fighting stupidity
: with stupidity. At least there's a real opponent in the latter.
Affirmative action is bullshit. I don't get any special
treatment in: Mexico, Spain, Brazil etc., yet some SOB who comes
to the good ole' F'ed up USA gets the red-carpet treatment? Fuck
that noise! A DA (district attorney) showed up on Donahue recently
advocating the fact that race SHOULD be an issue in dispensing
justice, depending on race he advocated lighter sentences. You
wouldn't beleive the SHIT minorities get at my university because
of the simple fact they are a "minority". Gee, if we were to take
our population stats for all of North and South AMerica would
hispanics STILL be a minority? Anyone w/a hispanic surname qualifies
for affirmative action. The whole F'ing affirmative action policy is
complete fucking bullshit. All those white, liberal sellout apologists
(I'm so sorry I'm white, am I oppressing you?) can get FUCKED!:
Lord Marcus Dracon
I said that ages ago about these nongs. Post this in an appropriate
newsgroup.
Marcus
Craig Fisher
On 4 Jun 1996, DLRapp wrote:
> In article <31B1F7...@netusa.net>, Guy Sisalli <gs...@netusa.net> says:
>
> > At the time, the US constitution was quite a contribution to world
> >governmental ideology, but it wasn't revolutionary. The ideas were already
> >written about. The authors of the US constitution simply incorporated what
> >they had read elsewhere, so please don't exhault it as if it were a grand
> >miracle document. It wasn't. :) It's also no longer followed by the United
> >States government. You, as an american, should be well aware of this.
> > Honestly, I want to apologise. The united states is a good nation and
> >we've made our fair share of contributions to the world. Some of us have
> >trouble seeing the world clearly, though. I know I do. :) Take care.
>
> You are correct on the above. Our forefathers "borrowed" the constitution.
> In fact, they got it directly from the "Five Nations" coalition of Native
> Americans (Algonquin, I think). At least, that was one of the tribes.
> You see from history how wonderfully we applied it's principles to them.
>
Good God where do you people get this twaddle from? The ideas in the
US Constitution are not new- how many ideas are- but they certainly are
not borrwoed from the Iroquois (this is the federated tribe of the
northeast)- the fact that you gave the Algonquin shows me you have not
read a work on this subject but are instead just repeating something you
have heard from others. The ideas are pure European enlightenment- i.e.
Voltaire, Rousseau, and most imp. Locke and Montesquieu- and put into
practical effect. The Founding Fathers were not out reading Iroquois government
documents, they couldn't. If you want to pursue this silly line of
thought go to alt.history.revsionism or else give me a cite from a
scholar detailing how this transmission of ideas occurred and how the
impact of the Iroquois is able to outweigh the intellectual impact of a
major intellectual movement in Europe that most of the founding fathers
were deeply familar with.>
Chris Kintz
Um, gentlemen?
Could you please trim your newsgroup headers? We here in
comp.sys.ibm.games.* hierarchy really don't wanna read this.
May I suggest news.groups?
Especially since the RESULTS on the CFV has already been announced.
Thank you.
-Chris
(Expecting to get flamed)
-Chris
Christopher Kintz (cki...@aloha.com) (http://www.aloha.com/~ckintz)
Orbital Death Ray Strike Coordinates - Lat:21.343N, Lng:157.908W, Hgt:167ft.
-=-=-=-= PGP Public Key available my at home page, or by finger. =-=-=-=-
"Life is like a sewer: what you get out of it depends on what you put in."
- Tom Lehrer
K. L. Markworth
GO AWAY! GET THIS OUTTA HERE! UGGGGGH!!!
Christian Buhl
Rob Pitman (mad...@cybercomm.net) wrote:
> >If Hitler and his gang had made a few changes in
> >their plans they could have changed the outcome of the war and we might
> >still be hearing about the Nazis. Just think, if Hitler had won the war
> >in Europe and provided Germany with more "living space" (leibenstrauss?)
> >modern day Germans would be saying "Gosh, that was quite a rational
> decision
> Gosh, I suppose the slaughter of 6 million Jews was a rational thing to
> do too eh? Idiot!
You fool. The above post in no way suggests that the Holocaust was
rational, it merely observes that had the Nazis won the war, the German
people, ecstatic in the numerous benefits they would have gained through
the subjugation of Europe (living room, raw materials, Alsace-Lorraine,
the British colonial empire, the end of the Russian threat, the fall of
communism, the glory, the humilation of the French, etc . . .) would have
looked back at the election of Hitler as one of the best, most 'rational'
things that could have happened. Does this make the Holocaust rational,
certainly not, but I guarantee you there are many people out there who
would easily look the other way as their neighbor was dragged off into
oblivion if they got to take his possessions.
> The allies do not get to write the history books simply because they
> won the war. Everyone knows what happened and how it happened. How
> people like you want to perceive it is your own problem.
Ha! The winners always write the history books. Very few people outside of
Germany knew about the extermination camps until after the war. Everyone
knew that Hitler was evil, noone suspected how evil. If Hitler had won the
war, odds aren't bad the Holocaust would be nothing but a rumour, The
winners always write the history books. You know why everyone knows what
happened and how it happened? the Allies won the war.
> This is a games newsgroup. I pledge right here and now to NO
> longer respond to this thread. I think we should all do the same.
> Not only is it off topic, but its getting very ugly and OLD.
So, uh, anyone beat the World War II scenario on CivII?
> -------
> >David Isham
> -------
/----------\ Christian M. Buhl /----------------------\
|TOY SCOUTS| virtual programmer |ALTERNATE TECHNOLOGIES|
\----------/ \----------------------/
\__()__/University of Central Florida University\__()__/
||Insitute for Simulation and Training High||
/ \Visual Systems Laboratory School/ \
| |Virtual Reality Research Team Engineering| |
http://www.vsl.ist.ucf.edu/~buhl/home.html
John Stewart
Makes you wonder how many bad guys are getting away with hushed-up genocide/
oppression/wars, etc. right now.
>> This is a games newsgroup. I pledge right here and now to NO
>> longer respond to this thread. I think we should all do the same.
>> Not only is it off topic, but its getting very ugly and OLD.
>
>So, uh, anyone beat the World War II scenario on CivII?
>
Any games out there that simulate modern-day Realpolitik?
Lord Marcus Dracon
This is not the place for this garbage. The vote is finished, they
lost so please go to another newsgroup that is appropriate and let us
live in our fantasy world free from this garbage.
ka...@zip.com
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cra...@mindspring.com (Craig J. Lipinski) earlier wrote:
>>On Thu, 30 May 1996 20:14:17 -0400, "Paul Hanlin, Jr."
>><pau...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>
>>Hey, I may totally disagree with these people's message, but I do
>>believe in the constitution of the united states - which gives them
>>the right to free speech.
>>
>>Let them create their newsgroup. If you don't like it, don't read it.
>>If you're worried about your kids reading it, then you need to screen
>>what your kids are doing on line.
>>
>>Just my views... Flame if you like.
>>-Craig
::The views expressed in this message are my Employers only
::and in no way endorsed by me. Please direct all hate mail
::to my boss
ka...@zip.com
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wl...@csulb.edu (William Lane) earlier wrote:
>> If I have to listen to that ASSHOLE Farrakhan talk
>>shit 'bout white folk then I think a white-power newsgroup is
>>just fine. They've got black power, they've got brown power
>>why not white power? I for one am fucking sick and tired ob
>>of being the excuse for eveyone else's problems. BTW, fuck
>>affirmative action!
::The views expressed in this message are my Employers only
ka...@zip.com
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r...@hpuerci.atl.hp.com (Richard Cave) earlier wrote:
>>William Lane (wl...@csulb.edu) wrote:
>>: If I have to listen to that ASSHOLE Farrakhan talk
>>: shit 'bout white folk then I think a white-power newsgroup is
>>: just fine. They've got black power, they've got brown power
>>: why not white power? I for one am fucking sick and tired ob
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> At least part of this post made sense.
>>
>>: of being the excuse for eveyone else's problems. BTW, fuck
>>: affirmative action!
>>
>>Richard
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"Charles J Johnson Jr." <gut...@ix.netcom.com> earlier wrote:
>>William Lane wrote:
>>>
>>> If I have to listen to that ASSHOLE Farrakhan talk
>>> shit 'bout white folk then I think a white-power newsgroup is
>>> just fine. They've got black power, they've got brown power
>>> why not white power? I for one am fucking sick and tired ob
>>> of being the excuse for eveyone else's problems. BTW, fuck
>>> affirmative action!
>>
>>Hey! You're repressing me! : ) Do they even have a Farrakhan
>>newsgroup? Anyway, Farrakhan is a nutcase. He speaks for a very small
>>minority of a minority. : ) White supremacists and neo-nazi's are
>>nutcases and also represent a small percentage of Americans. I doubt
>>the message sent by either group is going to sweep across America,
>>poisoning the minds of our youth. IMHO, most of the members of groups
>>like these seem to be a little screwed up to begin with.
ka...@zip.com
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dav...@interlog.com (Dave Glue) earlier wrote:
>>On 31 May 1996 17:43:51 GMT, wl...@csulb.edu (William Lane) wrote:
>>
>>> If I have to listen to that ASSHOLE Farrakhan talk
>>>shit 'bout white folk then I think a white-power newsgroup is
>>>just fine. They've got black power, they've got brown power
>>>why not white power? I for one am fucking sick and tired ob
>>>of being the excuse for eveyone else's problems. BTW, fuck
>>>affirmative action!
>>
>>So basically, your plan is to fight stupidity with stupidity.
>>
>>At least you're well armed.
ka...@zip.com
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mad...@cybercomm.net (Rob Pitman) earlier wrote:
>>In article <4onb4n$q...@hatathli.csulb.edu>, wl...@csulb.edu says...
>>>
>>> If I have to listen to that ASSHOLE Farrakhan talk
>>>shit 'bout white folk then I think a white-power newsgroup is
>>>just fine. They've got black power, they've got brown power
>>>why not white power? I for one am fucking sick and tired ob
>>>of being the excuse for eveyone else's problems. BTW, fuck
>>>affirmative action!
>>
>>Well, *Thats* taking it a tad too far isn't it? Two wrongs
>>do not make a right. I will vote yes, simply because they have
>>just as much right to converse about their shallow bigot
>>philosophy as we do to discuss why on earth we can't get a
>>fair amount of strikeouts in Hardball 5. :)
ka...@zip.com
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mad...@cybercomm.net (Rob Pitman) earlier wrote:
>>
>>>I don't mean this particularly nastily or anything but have people
>>>noticed that only the Americans use their constitution to justify things
>>>on an INTERNATIONAL newsgroup.
>>>
>>>I mean you don't get French, or Malaysian people producing an argument
>>>and justifying it by saying that it is in their constitution.
>>
>>If the organization that wants this newsgroup is in the US, then
>>it falls under the juristiction of our Constitution.
>>
>>Why should we feel sorry, apologetic or repress ourselves just
>>because we can speak out where, sadly, others cannot?
ka...@zip.com
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mad...@cybercomm.net (Rob Pitman) earlier wrote:
>>>I was trying to make point that to a European or other non American
>>>supporting your argumentsby saying that it is in agreement with the
>>>principles of your constitution is not very usefull.
>>
>>I understand. Weather or not it is in agreement with our
>>constitution should never be an issue unless its happening
>>here.
>>>I just felt it showed somthing about American attiutes that this was
>>>done. It wasn't a criticism as such although it does show either pride
>>>or naiviety (or both) that some Americans think their constitution is
>>>held in such high regard outside of their country.
>>
>>Having seen what people of some other nations go through, I
>>would like to think that its pride.
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dav...@interlog.com (Dave Glue) earlier wrote:
>>On Fri, 31 May 1996 09:13:19 -0700, "<your name>" <"<your
>>e-mail>"@wpo.sosc.osshe.edu> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Exactly!! who is the real Nazi here anyway?
>>
>>And as witnessed by Alt.religion.scientology, perhaps letting them
>>create groups is _good_. Subverting this kind of thing romanticizes
>>it- get them out in the open, and the smell of their bullshit will be
>>exposed to more people. The scientology newsgroup is probably one of
>>the worst things that could have happened to that criminal cult.
>>
>>Create the group. And of course, we have the right to post in there
>>as well. :)
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Joel Adams <Jo...@adamsfam.demon.co.uk> earlier wrote:
>>>
>>>Hey, I may totally disagree with these people's message, but I do
>>>believe in the constitution of the united states - which gives them
>>>the right to free speech.
>>>
>>
>>I don't mean this particularly nastily or anything but have people
>>noticed that only the Americans use their constitution to justify things
>>on an INTERNATIONAL newsgroup.
>>
>>I mean you don't get French, or Malaysian people producing an argument
>>and justifying it by saying that it is in their constitution.
>>--
>>Joel Adams
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mad...@cybercomm.net (Rob Pitman) earlier wrote:
>>>>Having seen what people of some other nations go through, I
>>>>would like to think that its pride.
>>>
>>>Compared to what? What people of Canada go through? Britian? France?
>>>Sweden? I'm sure most countries look good compared to Iraq's
>>>standardard of living, but I think most American pride is based on
>>>ignorance.
>>
>>Ignorance to what? You named 4 nations whos people pretty much
>>prosper in comparison to others. Is it no coincidence that these
>>are friends of America? I think not.
>>
>>What about China my friend? Or Cuba? How about Somalia?
>>or others like that. Call it what you want pal, but I'd
>>rather be here than anywhere else.
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tpan...@freedomnet.com (Tom Pancoast) earlier wrote:
>>mad...@cybercomm.net (Rob Pitman) wrote:
>>
>>>Ignorance to what? You named 4 nations whos people pretty much
>>>prosper in comparison to others. Is it no coincidence that these
>>>are friends of America? I think not.
>>>
>>>What about China my friend? Or Cuba? How about Somalia?
>>>or others like that. Call it what you want pal, but I'd
>>>rather be here than anywhere else.
>>
>>I'm beginning to get a better understanding of some other countries'
>>attitudes towards Americans. At least we mean well.
>>
>>---------------------------------------
>>tpan...@freedomnet.com (Tom Pancoast)
>>"An object at rest cannot be stopped!"
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chi...@students.wisc.edu (Libertine) earlier wrote:
>>>Well, so as not to be misunderstood, the Americans saved
>>> everybodies ass in Europe.
>>> Your Welcome :)
>>
>>i'm sick of people like you.
>>
>>being patriotic is one thing.
>>being ethnocentric is another.
>>but you're just a dumb ass.
>>
>>and no, i'm not from europe.
>>
>>but i think you should get out of the country, state, or town that you
>>live in and look around. maybe you'll learn something.
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>> Paul Hanlin, Jr. <pau...@ix.netcom.com> blathered the following:
>>u==> Please distribute the following message as you seem appropriate.
>>
>>[call for censorship snipped]
>>
>>u==> THANKS
>>u==> Paul
>>
>>"I disapprove of what you say but I will defend to the death your right
>>to say it." -- Voltaire
>>
>>--
>>--------------...@eden.com-------------------------
>> Any number of adolescent girls lie face down on the bed and
>> work on energy, housing, labor, justice, education,
>> transportation, agriculture, and balance of trade.
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ljb...@psuvm.psu.edu (First M. Lastname) earlier wrote:
>>>Alfred Potrzebie, m...@eden.com wrote;
>>> Paul Hanlin, Jr. <pau...@ix.netcom.com> blathered the following:
>>>u==> Please distribute the following message as you seem appropriate.
>>
>>>[call for censorship snipped]
>>
>>>u==> THANKS
>>>u==> Paul
>>
>>>"I disapprove of what you say but I will defend to the death your right
>>>to say it." -- Voltaire
>>
>>I am most likely not going to vote.
>>Saying that, is it not my right (based on the US Constitution. And
>>yes, I know that not eveyone on these groups is American or agrees with
>>the Constitution) to vote, and to express my opinion, and to
>>participate in majority rule. Now, these often offer conflicts, but I
>>see no more reason to call this mans effort "censorship" than to call
>>the efforts of his detractors be the same name. Does he also not have
>>the right to express his message, draw followers to his camp, and ask
>>them to do what he wills? Similar to the efforts of a neo-Nazi group.
>>So, I can only say that, if you or I disapprove of what he says, then I
>>agree with his right to say it.
>>
>>>Craig J. Lipinski, cra...@mindspring.com, wrote;
>>>Let them create their newsgroup. If you don't like it, don't read it.
>>>If you're worried about your kids reading it, then you need to screen
>>>what your kids are doing on line.
>>
>>By the same reasoning, is it not proper for this man to ask for us to
>>vote against, and for you to ignore him if you don't like his message?
>>
>>My (overvalued, unsolicited, inflation reduced) 2 cents.
>>
>>Lou
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k...@humerus.mae.cornell.edu () earlier wrote:
>>
>>First M. Lastname (ljb...@psuvm.psu.edu) wrote:
>>: >Alfred Potrzebie, m...@eden.com wrote;
>>: > Paul Hanlin, Jr. <pau...@ix.netcom.com> blathered the following:
>>: >u==> Please distribute the following message as you seem appropriate.
>>
>>: >[call for censorship snipped]
>>
>>: >u==> THANKS
>>: >u==> Paul
>>
>>: >"I disapprove of what you say but I will defend to the death your right
>>: >to say it." -- Voltaire
>>
>>: I am most likely not going to vote.
>>
>>ditto
>>
>>: Saying that, is it not my right (based on the US Constitution. And
>>: yes, I know that not eveyone on these groups is American or agrees with
>>: the Constitution) to vote, and to express my opinion, and to
>>: participate in majority rule. Now, these often offer conflicts, but I
>>: see no more reason to call this mans effort "censorship" than to call
>>
>>I see a difference (not to say there IS one).
>>
>>: the efforts of his detractors be the same name. Does he also not have
>>: the right to express his message, draw followers to his camp, and ask
>>: them to do what he wills? Similar to the efforts of a neo-Nazi group.
>>: So, I can only say that, if you or I disapprove of what he says, then I
>>: agree with his right to say it.
>>
>>Agreed. I see some of the same issues you raise in the 'tolerance' debate -
>>if you are truly tolerant, you must also be tolerant of the intolerant.
>>The difference I see is that in his case, he wishes to keep one group from
>>expressing their ideas; he does not wish to debate them, challenge them or
>>repudiate them - he wishes to eliminate their expression. Noone in this
>>group is saying that to him (such as "Use your sysadmin powers to delete his
>>posting; don't propagate his request...") - they are merely challenging the
>>ideas he has presented and expressed reluctance to follow them (and gave the
>>reason for that). Equivalently, the origianl poster could join the nazi
>>group and challenge them and their ideas. Silencing them is censorship.
>>
>>: >Craig J. Lipinski, cra...@mindspring.com, wrote;
>>: >Let them create their newsgroup. If you don't like it, don't read it.
>>: >If you're worried about your kids reading it, then you need to screen
>>: >what your kids are doing on line.
>>
>>: By the same reasoning, is it not proper for this man to ask for us to
>>: vote against, and for you to ignore him if you don't like his message?
>>
>>It is "proper" in the sense that he has the "right" to ask. The idea he
>>proposes is not proper.
>>
>>Kirk
ka...@zip.com
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cra...@mindspring.com (Craig J. Lipinski) earlier wrote:
>>On 31 May 1996 16:14:36 GMT, ljb...@psuvm.psu.edu (First M. Lastname)
>>wrote:
>>
>><SNIP>
>>>>Craig J. Lipinski, cra...@mindspring.com, wrote;
>>>>Let them create their newsgroup. If you don't like it, don't read it.
>>>>If you're worried about your kids reading it, then you need to screen
>>>>what your kids are doing on line.
>>>
>>>By the same reasoning, is it not proper for this man to ask for us to
>>>vote against, and for you to ignore him if you don't like his message?
>>>
>><SNIP>
>>>Lou
>>
>>No, He has the right to ask, I have the right to say he's wrong, and
>>you have the right to ignore us if you want to...
>>
>>-Craig
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dre...@wwdc.com (Daniel J. Redick) earlier wrote:
>>fla...@interramp.com wrote:
>>
>>>The use of the Constitution by Amercans is justifiable and has helped
>>>the world more often thanb naught. Or what, have you never read a
>>>history book?
>>
>>Not the ones in American schools!
>>
>>>Second, and last, All of the European Community should be overjoyed at
>>>the mention of the Constitution of the US. Had there never been a
>>>constitution of the US, well, There wouldn't be a France, England,
>>>Italy, Austria, etc today or have we forgotten who saved whose ass in
>>>WWI, and WWII. Well, so as not to be misunderstood, the Americans saved
>>>everybodies ass in Europe.
>>
>>The U.S. entered the War in Europe to save its own financial ass!
>>Great Britian owed the U.S. billions in loans and for military
>>hardware which the U.S. was capitalizing on very nicely.
>>If Great Britian had lost the War, the U.S. would have lost the money.
>>The bottom line is: It was profit from the War that shifted World
>>power from Great Britian to the U.S.
>>
>>Perhaps this thread should be moved to an empire.war.games group.
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>> Daniel Redick
>> London, Canada
>><dre...@wwdc.com>
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err...@iol.it (Errico Teotonico) earlier wrote:
>>mar...@wr.com.au (Lord Marcus Dracon) wrote:
>>
>>>Take this faeces and post it somewhere else this is for games not some
>>>quasi poltical mumbo jumbo. Freedom of speech and expression is dying
>>>on the Net as it is.
>>>Id nonus gratum anus rodentum
>>
>>"......I have a dream of a world free of racism where man are created
>>equal and where there are non borders and no skin colors
>>difference.........."
>>
>>----------------------------------------------------------
>>Errico Teotonico (err...@iol.it)
>>age 34
>>Police officer
>>My home town page is http://www.roma2000.it
>>My personal home page is "http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/4827"
>>Phone: +39-6-4073566
>>fax : +39-6-4073566 (call voice first)
>>Home address:
>>Via fossacesia 54
>>00156 Roma Italia
>>----------------------------------------------------------
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JSTEWART@ (John Stewart) earlier wrote:
>>In <31B098...@interramp.com>, fla...@interramp.com writes:
>>
>>[Snip]
>>
>>>The use of the Constitution by Amercans is justifiable and has helped
>>>the world more often thanb naught. Or what, have you never read a
>>>history book?
>>>You use France as an example? I'll tell you why Frenchman have no
>>>business bitching!
>>>First the ideals of the Constitution of the US provided the platform for
>>>the French Revolution to overthrow the Monarchy.
>>>Second, and last, All of the European Community should be overjoyed at
>>>the mention of the Constitution of the US. Had there never been a
>>>constitution of the US, well, There wouldn't be a France, England,
>>>Italy, Austria, etc today or have we forgotten who saved whose ass in
>>>WWI, and WWII. Well, so as not to be misunderstood, the Americans saved
>>>everybodies ass in Europe.
>>>Your Welcome :)
>>
>>Hmm, a little simplistic view of history, maybe?
>>I don't think the people of France or the USA are any freer than any of their
>>neighbours living in modern monarchies. In Europe, monarchies usually have nothing
>>to do with government, and are mostly quite popular. In most cases, monarchs
>>are respected more than politicians. Of course, this wasn't always so...
>>
>>Unfortunately we live in a world of Realpolitik where morality largely takes a back
>>seat to expediency. in this sense, I don't see that the USA's constitution should be
>>held up any higher than constitutions (written or not) of, for example, many
>>European countries.
>>
>>As well as 'saving our asses', the USA in recent history has also been responsible
>>for actions such as supporting some very oppressive regimes in Latin America,
>>putting into power (and then regretting it) the delightful Muammar Ghaddafi,
>>supplying arms to Indonesia for their invasion and continuing brutal occupation
>>of East Timor, to name but a few.
>>
>>Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not defending many of my country's (UK)
>>international actions (and inactions) as being particularly better - we also sell
>>arms to Indonesia (Hawk jets are reported to be used for bombing villages in
>>East Timor), our 'Arms to Iraq' scandal ranked similarly to the 'Iran/Contra' affair,
>>and our Bosnia policy has been nothing to be proud of (Bosnia, we won't let you
>>defend yourself, and we wont defend you either). How 'safe' is Srebrenica now?
>>
>>The world today, as always, has been governed by national self-interests and doing
>>what you can get away with. The addition of democracy as a factor has modified
>>how this works, but not changed the fundamentals. Governments very rarely do
>>anything for altruistic reasons - democracies have to pander to public opinion
>>which is often misguided and can be manipulated.
>>
>>Who was it that said -
>>"You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the
>>time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time" ?
>>
>>On another 'constitution' note, I'm sure glad my country doesn't have gun ownership
>>laws like the one in the USA constitution. Legitimate sport shooters should have
>>no fear of extensive regulation designed to keep guns out of illegitimate hands.
>>
>>Finally, in terms of what this thread is about, is censorship the answer to
>>prejudice and bigotry? I'm not sure that it is.
>>
>>JBS
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ro...@wentz1.reslife.okstate.edu (Commander Spock) earlier wrote:
>>On Sat, 1 Jun 1996 08:42:44 +0100, Joel Adams
>><Jo...@adamsfam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>>Hey, I may totally disagree with these people's message, but I do
>>>>believe in the constitution of the united states - which gives them
>>>>the right to free speech.
>>>>
>>>
>>>I don't mean this particularly nastily or anything but have people
>>>noticed that only the Americans use their constitution to justify things
>>>on an INTERNATIONAL newsgroup.
>>>
>>>I mean you don't get French, or Malaysian people producing an argument
>>>and justifying it by saying that it is in their constitution.
>>>--
>>>Joel Adams
>>
>>Uh, Joel... Having an inferiority complex?
>>
>>Hehheheh..
>>
>> - Rich
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jwil...@water.net (jwilliam) earlier wrote:
>>dav...@interlog.com (Dave Glue) wrote:
>>
>>>On 31 May 1996 17:43:51 GMT, wl...@csulb.edu (William Lane) wrote:
>>
>>>> If I have to listen to that ASSHOLE Farrakhan talk
>>>>shit 'bout white folk then I think a white-power newsgroup is
>>>>just fine. They've got black power, they've got brown power
>>>>why not white power? I for one am fucking sick and tired ob
>>>>of being the excuse for eveyone else's problems. BTW, fuck
>>>>affirmative action!
>>
>>>So basically, your plan is to fight stupidity with stupidity.
>>
>>>At least you're well armed.
>>
>>Heh heh...I liked that. Good one. Kinda like a battle of wits
>>between unarmed opponents.
>>________
>>jwil...@water.net
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Guy Sisalli <gs...@netusa.net> earlier wrote:
>>fla...@interramp.com wrote:
>>
>>> Well, seeing as how parts of the european community can't even have a
>>> little gore in there game I can see that they are already being censored
>>
>> Excuse me? I've seen some terrible things in european games. It's the
>>united states where things like that seem to be censored most. I could be
>>wrong, of course, but that's how it seems.
>>
>>> , and if I remember the whole telecommunications decency act was signed
>>> right around the time a portion of the European Community was trying to
>>> ban many of our on-line services. and IMHO most of the world doesn't
>>
>>True.
>>
>>> have the experience with freedom in general, remember that if it weren't
>>
>> !
>>
>> Would anyone mind if I succeeded this guy from the union? :)
>>
>>> for the American Constitution the Revolutions in France etc, would never
>>> have occured, and instead of being the Socialist they are today they'd
>>
>> How do you know? Did you see an alternate timeline where neither
>>occured? I don't know much about the era, but international news couldn't have
>>been very up to speed. Still. there's exaggerated word-of-mouth from the
>>sailors to deal with. That might have spurred something, but articles in a
>>newspaper make not a revolution.
>>
>>> still be like the British with a King or a Queen in charge... oooh
>>> that's a winner. Also, if it hadn't been for our constitution and the
>>
>> Nations seem to be shying away from monarchy-style governments. The
>>English did it at some point. I don't know when that happened,
>>either(-smile-), but there's no evidence to support the French sticking with a
>>monarchy if it wasn't for the united states(We americans all speak in chords,
>>you know. We have glowing auras and we seem to glitter if you look at us just
>>right...at least those of us who live on Three Mile Island.).
>>
>>> ideals presented there-in the whole of the European Community would have
>>> been sucked in under the Third-Reich. Oh, but we forget about stuff
>>
>> I don't follow. The US was the deciding factor in the world wars. If
>>it wasn't for the west, I'm pretty sure Europe would have fallen under
>>German/Axis control(Of course, the west would have been next to fall. That's
>>why it's a -world- war. The globe was a potential battleground and it really
>>didn't matter where or how much of it we fought on.) if the united states
>>hadn't stepped in. The US took a 'wait and see' attitude when it comes down to
>>it. We didn't want to get caught up in it unless we absolutly had to.
>>
>>> like that don't we? Rather than complaining about the US Citizens using
>>> the Constitution you should be thanking us for it!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>
>> At the time, the US constitution was quite a contribution to world
>>governmental ideology, but it wasn't revolutionary. The ideas were already
>>written about. The authors of the US constitution simply incorporated what
>>they had read elsewhere, so please don't exhault it as if it were a grand
>>miracle document. It wasn't. :) It's also no longer followed by the United
>>States government. You, as an american, should be well aware of this.
>> Honestly, I want to apologise. The united states is a good nation and
>>we've made our fair share of contributions to the world. Some of us have
>>trouble seeing the world clearly, though. I know I do. :) Take care.
>>
>>
>>--
>>This opinion is mastered to Dolby "B" standards for flame reduction. ///
>>Decrease flame response when reading on non-Dolby equipment. __ ///
>>gs...@netusa.net *Amiga LIVES...uh, sorta.* \\\///
>>------------------------------------------------------------------\XX/-------
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fla...@interramp.com earlier wrote:
>>Joel Adams wrote:
>>>
>>> >
>>> >Hey, I may totally disagree with these people's message, but I do
>>> >believe in the constitution of the united states - which gives them
>>> >the right to free speech.
>>> >
>>>
>>> I don't mean this particularly nastily or anything but have people
>>> noticed that only the Americans use their constitution to justify things
>>> on an INTERNATIONAL newsgroup.
>>>
>>> I mean you don't get French, or Malaysian people producing an argument
>>> and justifying it by saying that it is in their constitution.
>>> --
>>> Joel Adams
>>
>>Well, seeing as how parts of the european community can't even have a
>>little gore in there game I can see that they are already being censored
>>, and if I remember the whole telecommunications decency act was signed
>>right around the time a portion of the European Community was trying to
>>ban many of our on-line services. and IMHO most of the world doesn't
>>have the experience with freedom in general, remember that if it weren't
>>for the American Constitution the Revolutions in France etc, would never
>>have occured, and instead of being the Socialist they are today they'd
>>still be like the British with a King or a Queen in charge... oooh
>>that's a winner. Also, if it hadn't been for our constitution and the
>>ideals presented there-in the whole of the European Community would have
>>been sucked in under the Third-Reich. Oh, but we forget about stuff
>>like that don't we? Rather than complaining about the US Citizens using
>>the Constitution you should be thanking us for it!!!!!!!!!!!!!
::The views expressed in this message are my Employers only
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dun...@psych.toronto.edu (Matthew Duncan) earlier wrote:
>>>dav...@interlog.com (Dave Glue) wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 31 May 1996 17:43:51 GMT, wl...@csulb.edu (William Lane) wrote:
>>>
>>>>> If I have to listen to that ASSHOLE Farrakhan talk
>>>>>shit 'bout white folk then I think a white-power newsgroup is
>>>>>just fine. They've got black power, they've got brown power
>>>>>why not white power? I for one am fucking sick and tired ob
>>>>>of being the excuse for eveyone else's problems. BTW, fuck
>>>>>affirmative action!
>>>
>>>>So basically, your plan is to fight stupidity with stupidity.
>>
>>Easy pal. What do you think affirmative action is? It's fighting
>>racism with racism where the racism initially being fought doesn't
>>even exist half the time. I'd call that fighting nothing with
>>stupidity. Seems a lot worse to me than fighting stupidity
>>with stupidity. At least there's a real opponent in the latter.
>>
>>Matt.
>>--
>>M. Duncan University of Toronto Toronto, Ontario Canada -------
>>Email: dun...@psych.utoronto.ca ---------------------------------
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ph...@karlsruhe.netsurf.de (Philipp Leibfried ) earlier wrote:
>>In article <31B1F7...@netusa.net>, Guy Sisalli <gs...@netusa.net> writes:
>>|> fla...@interramp.com wrote:
>>|>
>>|> > Well, seeing as how parts of the european community can't even have a
>>|> > little gore in there game I can see that they are already being censored
>>|>
>>|> Excuse me? I've seen some terrible things in european games. It's the
>>|> united states where things like that seem to be censored most. I could be
>>|> wrong, of course, but that's how it seems.
>>
>>Hmmm ? It seems to me that the Americans are much more eager to censor sex
>>than violence in computer games, movies, etc. while the Europeans are a little
>>oversensitive about violence.
>>
>>Just my $0.02
>>
>>- Philipp
>>ph...@karlsruhe.netsurf.de
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chris...@woodworks.com (Christopher Wood) earlier wrote:
>>In article <4ov84u$c...@nz12.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de>,
>>ph...@karlsruhe.netsurf.de (Philipp Leibfried ) wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Hmmm ? It seems to me that the Americans are much more eager to censor sex
>>> than violence in computer games, movies, etc. while the Europeans are a little
>>> oversensitive about violence.
>>
>>They do seem oversensitive, but then again they don't allow violence on
>>their streets and in thier homes as much as we Americans do.
>>
>>-Christopher
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wl...@csulb.edu (William Lane) earlier wrote:
>>: Easy pal. What do you think affirmative action is? It's fighting
>>: racism with racism where the racism initially being fought doesn't
>>: even exist half the time. I'd call that fighting nothing with
>>: stupidity. Seems a lot worse to me than fighting stupidity
>>: with stupidity. At least there's a real opponent in the latter.
>>
>> Affirmative action is bullshit. I don't get any special
>>treatment in: Mexico, Spain, Brazil etc., yet some SOB who comes
>>to the good ole' F'ed up USA gets the red-carpet treatment? Fuck
>>that noise! A DA (district attorney) showed up on Donahue recently
>>advocating the fact that race SHOULD be an issue in dispensing
>>justice, depending on race he advocated lighter sentences. You
>>wouldn't beleive the SHIT minorities get at my university because
>>of the simple fact they are a "minority". Gee, if we were to take
>>our population stats for all of North and South AMerica would
>>hispanics STILL be a minority? Anyone w/a hispanic surname qualifies
>>for affirmative action. The whole F'ing affirmative action policy is
>>complete fucking bullshit. All those white, liberal sellout apologists
>>(I'm so sorry I'm white, am I oppressing you?) can get FUCKED!: