Lance Haffner Games
ECCI LR
Games, or for that matter, any of the other text-based sims. Anyways, we at
Haffner Games are working to find out what it is that you, the gamer, is
looking for a desiring in future modifications of our gaming line. Already
there is college and pro football, college and pro basketball, baseball,
hockey, wrestling, and nascar.
I am looking for programming ideas and input on ways to improve, enhance, and
modify the above-mentioned titles. Let us know what you think.......ideas,
suggestions, comments, and yes, even criticism.
The computer gaming world has undergone a vast transformation over the twelve
years that I have been personally been involved and I don't see that changing
any time soon.
Another two questions to throw out for email or discussion.........if you've
stopped playing Haffner games........I would genuinely like to know why and
secondly, what would it take for you to try them again?
Thanks,
Shannon
sha...@LHgames.com
Sterren
Way to go. If only the big boys would be open to this kind
of input.
I'm most familiar with Basketball - The Pro Game. It's still
the most realistic historical basketball sim out there.
What would I like to see? Hmmm.
1) I guess a Windows interface with some kind of hardcourt
graphic as the game moves along. You know, the player names
on the court with the ball moving from name-to-name.
2) A 1950s Decade Disk.
3) Remove the limit of "only" 14 players per club.
4) Better play-by-play. (More season sensitive: "West with
the ball. Jerry's having another terrific year. 27.4 ppg &
11.4 apg."
5) Up-to-date rule changes.
6) In player creation, allow Game Starts & Turnovers to be
included in the input.
7) A schedule generator.
For a start. :)
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
ECCI LR
Thanks for those comments. A Windows interface seems to be the most prevalent
item I have heard lately. Windows versions of the sims are priorities of ours
as well. Admittedly, I've been slow in making that adjustment and am sloooowly
coming up to speed on Visual Basic and Windows programming, but that is the
direction in which we are headed.
I had an email reply from David Koch of Action PC Football when asking him
about the conversion from DOS to Windows and such. He said it took about 18
months of long, dedicated weeks for him to convert his program. So, that's in
the back of my mind.......hopefully it won't quite take that long LOL.
I have printed off your specific suggestions and will be giving them a good,
hard look at incorporation. I know the schedule generator, modification of
input to allow starts and turnovers and rule changes will definitely be
incorporated.
Speaking of rule changes, which ones are not currently included because I
thought we had those all covered?
50's decade disk....that shouldn't be a hard one to do........limit of 14
players per club can be expanded.
Season sensitive play by play is something I've wanted to work into the entire
simulation line. I think that can really add a lot to "personalize" the game.
Lastly, the court location and movement is an item that Lance and I have talked
about doing more with, as well as incorporating more strategy selections and
options into the pro game especially.
I really appreciate the input and encourage others to do the same.
Thanks,
Shannon
Sterren
Thanks for the fast reply.
I think the only missing rule change is the 3 free throws
when fouled beyond the arc.
Regards.
ECCI LR
the arc."
Eddie,
I think that is in there, but I'll verify it....maybe I'm thinking of the
college game LOL.
Shannon
Dave
purchasing? I for one am reluctant to buy any computer games without a test
drive. At the very least put up some screen shots and sample play-by-play
and statistical results.
Also, I went to the www.lhgames.com website and clicked the 3-in-1 Football
link. While the game sounds interesting, can you play out a season? Or is
it just a game-by-game kind of thing? If you don't have any sort of a
season mode then I think that would be a good place to start. You should
separate the college game from the pro game, too. Make a true college
football sim, with rankings, bowl bids, recruiting, etc.
Just my two cents.
Dave
ECCI LR wrote in message <19990915150946...@ng-fk1.aol.com>...
Todd Klemme
ECCI LR <ecc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990915150946...@ng-fk1.aol.com...
> I have noticed that there is not much activity or discussion on Lance
Haffner
> Games, or for that matter, any of the other text-based sims. Anyways, we
at
> Haffner Games are working to find out what it is that you, the gamer, is
> looking for a desiring in future modifications of our gaming line. Already
> there is college and pro football, college and pro basketball, baseball,
> hockey, wrestling, and nascar.
IMHO, you really need two basic things before people will even start to
think about ordering your games. You need some sort of screen shots of the
game on your Web site. Yes, it's a text based game but still, most folks
aren't going to buy it 'cuz your site says "It's Great! Buy it!".
Second, I personally would never buy a game without playing a demo first.
Your prices and the number of teams your games come with is fine, but I'd
still have to give it a test run. Here's why: My only computer sports
interest is Pro Football. I have serious doubts that one football program
can handle both the college and pro games. They are too different. Now, if
your 3-in-1 game uses different equations for working out plays in pro and
college games, that might work but, again, I'd have to see it for myself in
a demo.
Oh, and you might send copies of the game to the larger sports and computer
gaming Web sites for a review. William Abner, sports reviewer for Computer
Games Online, frequents this board every day. Send him a copy and let him
review it for their Web site and/or print magazine. If you're truly proud of
your product and think it's worth buying, let a professional reviewer help
you out with a good review. Word of mouth and reviews did wonders for the
original Front Office Football.
Todd Klemme
msimmons@.lcc.net
First off let me say I am Haffner Games Fan. I own Full Count, 3-in-1
Football, Courtside Basketball, The Progame, Track & Field, both Racing
Games, Breakpoint Tennis and even TKO Boxing.
However Full Count and 3-in-1 are my favorites by far. Full Count is
amazing game which I have run many replays on and they have produced
outstanding stats on. I like the Ballparks provided and the Programmable
Manager (which I haven't used allot of) and also all the seasons that are
provided. Some things I see that could be added to the game to make it a
little better would be 1st a Windows Version. I think this would make it a
little more attractive to the overall gaming industry. 2nd I would add
sound effects into the game possibly like APB or Tony Laurrusa have in Lon
Simmons and Ernie Harwell I know people who play APBA just for Ernies's
voice. 3rd I would change the ways the stats are accumulated it is a little
cumbersome. 4th I think Career Play would be a plus. I really don't think
much is necessary in the game engine because I think it produces great
stats. (Don't fix it if it isn't broke). I will say that the Schedule
Generator is the feature that makes this game very attractive to season
replayers and draft league players.
3-in-1 is a game that with some work can be the leader in the market for
Football Sims. I definitely think you have to go a Windows Version. (Is it
true that this is already in process)?
3-in-1 has more raw quality than nearly any text based game on the market.
Again I think to attract a few more gamers is to add more graphics and
possibly sound to the game. A Schedule Generator is a must for 3-in-1.
With the demise of several Football Games through the years APCFB and Lance
Haffner provide the best and possibly the only Sim Football Games left.
I am sorry I got so long winded but I just thought I would put my two cents
in.
Mike
Jeff Jones
>IMHO, you really need two basic things before people will even start to
>think about ordering your games. You need some sort of screen shots of the
>game on your Web site. Yes, it's a text based game but still, most folks
>aren't going to buy it 'cuz your site says "It's Great! Buy it!".
>
>Second, I personally would never buy a game without playing a demo first.
>Your prices and the number of teams your games come with is fine, but I'd
>still have to give it a test run. Here's why: My only computer sports
>interest is Pro Football. I have serious doubts that one football program
>can handle both the college and pro games. They are too different. Now, if
>your 3-in-1 game uses different equations for working out plays in pro and
>college games, that might work but, again, I'd have to see it for myself in
>a demo.
I've emailed LH Games these very suggestions in the past, and asked some
questions about their games. I never got any response, so I basically lost
interest. The whole operation is archaic, IMO. From the vanilla web page
(why do text based sims always have bad web sites?), to the DOS interface,
to the 3.5" floppy distribution. And no web ordering. How about a
pay-then-download ability? People are so scared of piracy that they'll lose
sales over it.
Since the guy is soliciting advice, I'll just say you can start by joining
the 20th century :) Hey, we're almost to the 21st century!
And try answering your emails. It was a few years ago, maybe Mr Haffner is
more attentive now, but that really gave me the impression that LH Games was
'stand-offish'
jeff
>Oh, and you might send copies of the game to the larger sports and computer
>gaming Web sites for a review. William Abner, sports reviewer for Computer
>Games Online, frequents this board every day. Send him a copy and let him
>review it for their Web site and/or print magazine. If you're truly proud
of
>your product and think it's worth buying, let a professional reviewer help
>you out with a good review. Word of mouth and reviews did wonders for the
>original Front Office Football.
Good advice.
Dave
what I read at the web site I wasn't really sure what the game has to offer.
Perhaps some of those things (season play, league leaders, Top 20 polls)
could be highlighted a bit more in the description of the game at the web
site. It's just hard to tell what features are included beyond the fact
that you get a lot of teams to choose from. Is there a more detailed
description of the game somewhere that I missed?
ECCI LR wrote in message <19990915225406...@ng-fo1.aol.com>...
>Dave,
>
>You make some excellent points that I am getting in response from others.
Demos
>for each of the games are probably running a close tie for first along with
>producing Windows based formats for each of the games.
>
>To answer your specific questions, yes..you can play out an entire pro or
>college season. Unlike other college sims, we include EVERY Division I-A
and
>I-AA college that took the field. That's everyone from Florida State down
to
>Iona or Stony Brook. Each team is rated according to strength of schedule
and
>power ratings. The ENTIRE college schedule is included with each season.
Our
>complete college seasons run from now back to the 1956 college football
season.
>In addition, the league leaders portion will calculate a weekly poll for
you
>much as the ones in USA Today or the RPI polls.
>
>So, there is a "true" college football sim with real players and real
stats. In
>addition, we have every pro football team back to 1940...AAFC, AFL, USFL,
WFL,
>WLAF, and NFL with complete schedules. Three in one originally dervied its
name
>when it was college, USFL, and NFL back in the mid 1980s.
>
>Thanks for your two cents......hope I was able to answer your questions. If
you
>have more, keep em coming.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Shannon
ECCI LR
Long winded is perfectly ok with me. I would be rather be overwhelmed with
input than left to be guessing. Yes, it's true that a Windows version of Pro
football is in the works. Inevitably, all of the other titles will have to be
converted into a Windows format as well for cosmetic as well as functionality.
I really appreciate you taking the time to respond to my request/solicitation
for feedback. Feedback is definitely what motivates me to make improvements,
changes, etc.
Sound "effects" are not so difficult to add, especially with what the Windows
programming environmental allows you to do so much as an Ernie Harwell type
voice play by play.
You had mentioned that the compilation of stats was a little cumbersome. Can
you go into some more detail there to help me out just to have a better idea of
what you are saying?
A scheduler for 3in1....a definite must and Lance has been on me to do one for
3in1 and the pro basketball games.
Thanks for your input and look forward to hearing back from you.
Shannon Lynn
sha...@LHgames.com
ECCI LR
Ripple
occassions, asking for some kind of sales literature on the games, and get
blown off every time.
I always got the impression that they simply didn't care very much.
Jeff Jones <jeffj...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:ru0g6j...@news.supernews.com...
ECCI LR
Thanks for your comments and reply. I think I may have answered a lot of your
questions with a reply to Dave Tierney. However, to go a little further on
yours, there is a DISTINCT set of equations specifically designated for college
and another set for the pro game. In addition, because our game has been
developed to accomodate not only college and pro, but also differing eras and
rule sets, 3 in 1 is capable of implementing of utilizing the rules and
features for different eras for college or pro.
If some of those who have played the game might post "unbiased" opinions, then
that might be a little more clear.
However, it is evident that a demo is definitely needed and will be shortly
forthcoming. Also, thanks for the tips on some internet contacts to send the
programs to. We have never been shy about sending games to reviewers. As you
said, a good review never hurt anyone.
Thanks,
Shannon
ECCI LR
Anyone that knows me knows that a response like yours doesn't make me recoil in
horror or retaliate with a bunch of counter fire. What you wrote is exactly
what I, or even better yet, what Lance Haffner Games needs to know. I give you
my word personally, and you ask anyone that has ever written me personally,
that if you write me, you are guaranteed to get a response. I ask though that
you try to copy me on an email as well if you're posting to a newsgroup, but
I'll definitely reply and hopefully with a reply that gets you what you need to
know.
I apologize on behalf on the company if your emails went unnoticed. That should
never happen and I have to reason or excuse to offer as to why. Lance is
located in Nashville, TN and I am just outside of Little Rock, AR.......but
anyways, write me anytime if you have a question and if I can't answer it, I'll
find someone who can.
I concur with you that the web page can use some major sprucing up, that there
should be a secure interface to order and download from online, especially
teams.
As you might have been able to gather from some of the previous posts, demos
are coming and fast. If there's any other specific or for that matter general
questions that I can answer, just write me.
I really do appreciate your input Jeff. What other sims do you currently play?
Thanks,
Shannon Lynn
sha...@LHgames.com
ECCI LR
occassions, asking for some kind of sales literature on the games, and get
blown off every time.
I always got the impression that they simply didn't care very much.>>
Well, I can give you my word, I care and I asked for all responses and
unfortunately, yours has started to become one I have read a lot of tonight
while skimming my email and messages. As I have written to others, I apologize
on behalf of Lance Haffner Games that you received this kind of response. There
are have been some changes taking place, more to come and all in a positive
way.
I don't know what your current gaming status is right now, but whatever kind of
information that you need....information, brochures, etc....please write me and
let me know and I will personally make sure that you get what you need and
request. If you have any questions on the sims, aspects, teams,
whatever......ask away. That's why I'm posting to this board. I want to resolve
the disconnect or whatever it is that seems to have taken place over the past
and be "in touch" with you, the consumer.
I take yours, and everyone else's, comments and suggestions VERY seriously and
hope no one ever feels or gets the impression that they have been blown off.
That is just not tolerable. You give me a chance to deliver and I don't think
you'll be disappointed.
Feel free to write me anytime and I do appreciate your input once again.
Sincerely,
Shannon Lynn
sha...@LHgames.com
RonKan
I, too, own many of Lance's games. My favorites are 3-in-1 and Courtside. What
are the latest editions of each?
In the past, Lance has been nice enough to replace the old games with new
versions, provided you mailed in the original disks. But the only time I took
advantage of this offer, it took a l-o-n-n-g time to receive the upgrade.
To me, it would be much more efficient just to e-mail the upgrade to
``registered'' users like myself.
Also, I think Lance would generate more business by posting news on the web
site, ESPECIALLY what add-ons (season disks) that are available. Maybe we can
get a bulletin board started as well for fellow Haffner gamers.
Just my .02 worth. Thanks for listening and developing the games, which still
are loads of fun for us non joystick jockeys who love realistic results.
Ron Kantowski
PS: Did anybody ever write a manual to incorporate the new football plays that
were introduced a few years back?. I can guess, but I still don't know what
defenses work against many of the new plays.
Jeff Jones
recoil in
>horror or retaliate with a bunch of counter fire. What you wrote is exactly
>what I, or even better yet, what Lance Haffner Games needs to know. I give
you
>my word personally, and you ask anyone that has ever written me personally,
>that if you write me, you are guaranteed to get a response. I ask though
that
>you try to copy me on an email as well if you're posting to a newsgroup,
but
>I'll definitely reply and hopefully with a reply that gets you what you
need to
>know.
That's nice to hear.
>I apologize on behalf on the company if your emails went unnoticed. That
should
>never happen and I have to reason or excuse to offer as to why. Lance is
>located in Nashville, TN and I am just outside of Little Rock, AR.......but
>anyways, write me anytime if you have a question and if I can't answer it,
I'll
>find someone who can.
I appreciate that. I'm a consumer minded kind of guy, and customer service
goes a long way with me. Strat-O-Matic flushed $100/yr of my money down the
toilet by being rude on the phone, and providing poor customer service. A
lot of companies greatly underestimate a friendly response, or a simple
acknowledgement.
>I concur with you that the web page can use some major sprucing up, that
there
>should be a secure interface to order and download from online, especially
>teams.
This is just friendly advice, but yes, the products could be marketed much
better. Past experiences with LH led one to believe that they didn't care if
they sold them or not. I'm not trying to be inflammatory, those are my real
feelings. The website basically just lists the names of the products and the
price. Tell folks what the products offer! Give a detailed feature list, and
some screens. I'm not a marketing major, but I could just about guarantee
you that I could quadruple your sales by redesigning your web site, and then
marketing the site (no, I'm not trying to get hired :), and that's just me.
A real marketing whiz could probably do a lot more.
>As you might have been able to gather from some of the previous posts,
demos
>are coming and fast. If there's any other specific or for that matter
general
>questions that I can answer, just write me.
>I really do appreciate your input Jeff. What other sims do you currently
play?
Front Office Football 2, and Diamond Mind Baseball 7. What impresses me
about both companies is their great customer service, and of course
outstanding products that pay a lot of attention to detail.
jeff
Jonathan K.
>I am looking for programming ideas and input on ways to improve, enhance, and
>modify the above-mentioned titles. Let us know what you think.......ideas,
>suggestions, comments, and yes, even criticism.
Here's one for you. I've seen ads for LH games, read a little Usenet
discussion--and my main resistance has been that what you offer sounds
too good to be true. I'm not saying that you don't offer what you
advertise, far from it--perhaps you do. However, I'm badly burned in
the graphical as well as text-based world. I'm one of those guys who
started playing SOM in 1974, and slowly grew disgusted with the
decline of the computer version (and the crappy look of the newer
cards), so they lost me. Experiences with FPS and EA caused me to be
very shy of the graphical games. So when I see an ad that seems to
offer me the opportunity to play any major sport, any season, with
realistic play, I can't take it at face value without knowing more.
Needless to say, if I could read an objective review that would
contrast your games with what's on the market right now, you'd have a
chance to get my attention.
>The computer gaming world has undergone a vast transformation over the twelve
>years that I have been personally been involved and I don't see that changing
>any time soon.
Yeah, it has. Flashier graphics, crappier realism. Resistance to the
career league idea, which IMO is one of the most appealing things a
game can offer. Simply skipping out on details of a sport. (Example:
EA NCAA 99. I *love* college football, so much that I held my nose
and dared an EA product. Found out it only had, what, six penalties?
Get real. In football you can be whistled for over a dozen types of
infractions. I expect to see them in a game.)
>Another two questions to throw out for email or discussion.........if you've
>stopped playing Haffner games........I would genuinely like to know why and
>secondly, what would it take for you to try them again?
I never started, but I'm always good for holding forth on why I gave
up on SOM: paranoid copy protection, years-late technological
improvements, gross overpricing, and poor stability. If LH avoids any
of the above, preferably all, they'll be a leg up on SOM. What would
it take for me to buy a LH game? Actually knowing for sure what it
could do in terms of seasons, realism, etc. would go a long way. I'd
like nothing better than to play old WHA seasons with realistically
rated players, and if it was text-based, fine by me. I'm too elderly
to mash gamepad buttons anyway.
One last idea: it's a grave marketing error not to have a web page
for LH games in your .sig file. I'd have gone to it.
--
Jonathan K.
Sterren
take a chance on Hat Trick Hockey. (There is a money-back
guarantee.) I've played ALL the computer hockey games I've
learned of: Face Off, Challenge Cup, EA, APBA, etc, etc. I
recently completed a 1991-92 Hat Trick replay (with no
strike!) and the results were thrilling from start to
incredible finish. (The incredible finish had the Rangers
score 4 GOALS in the last 5 minutes of Game 7 [at the
Garden!] to win the Cup. The Penguins had by far the best
club in the regular season but, as so often happens, were
bounced in a 7-game second-round series. All the stats --
team & player -- were dead on.
And there is a WHA Disk available, with all the seasons.
Jack
ECCI LR
emailed Lance a small change to make 6.2). I'm not quite sure how to answer
your question on program revisions. I guess on minor ones that it could be
feasible or possible to have an individual file or patch available for
download. However, for a major change, substantial work, addition of new
features, etc., etc.....that would be more of a "chargeable" upgrade/revision.
We're getting a lot of feedback on the web site...an issue that you touched on
as well. I think it's a good idea to list not only the games, but as you
suggested, each of the season disks available for each game....not only that,
but a brief one or two line synopsis of that season to refresh people's
memories. I have had two other games ask if it were ok to start up their own
web pages to promote the games and I highly encourage that. Who can't use more
exposure???
To date, the manuals have not incorporated the new plays and such as you are
describing. That is something we really need to take a look at and could easily
be a text file that could go on disk with the game or be a tech report on the
web site or simply downloadable from the site.
Lastly, on the racing games.....I've not spoken with Tom in a while, but it's
my understanding that he is still at work on the Windows versions of Indy and
NASCAR.
Thanks for writing and for being a customer of Lance Haffner Games,
Shannon
www.LHgames.com
ECCI LR
<<It's just hard to tell what features are included beyond the fact
that you get a lot of teams to choose from. Is there a more detailed
description of the game somewhere that I missed?>>
Unfortunately, no, there probably isn't a more detailed description that I am
aware of. We have been used by CBS Sportsline to do college football bowl
"predictions", MSNBC, and other media outlets. However, even on those
particular sites, there was not a lot of mention as to the "nuts and bolts" of
the game.
It looks like the best things to do are to get the web site more
"user-friendly", a demo put together to show the features of the program, and
to get it in the hands of more internet reviewers.
Thanks for the interest and keep the questions coming.
Shannon
www.LHgames.com
ECCI LR
I cannot argue with a single point you made. Actually, I am in complete
agreement with each one. I didn't take any of your comments to be inflammatory,
but just your honest opinion as a consumer. It just makes me think to myself
how many more out there share this same opinion that either one, don't respond
or have access to a newsgroup such as this or just are not internet "friendly".
So, I take these comments very seriously because it is a reflection of customer
service that can stand for some improvement.
I love Full Count, which is our baseball sim, but I have never been shy to say
that if I ever had to pick another sim, it would be Diamond Mind because I
think they are just as sound statistically as Full Count and the user interface
works smoothly.
Look forward to more feedback from you.
Sincerely,
Shannon
www.LHgames.com
ECCI LR
I really enjoyed reading your letter and comments. Your first comment made me
smile a little bit. Not out of laughing at you, but it brought back some
memories from when Lance Haffner Games first started and there was a computer
sim review magazine back then called Pro Gamer written by an outstanding
gentleman by the name of Mark Cohen.
I remember reading Mark's review of 3 in 1 Football and him comparing the
initial perception to that of some of the then popular late night cable ads
about things like the Ginsu knives..."you not only get the knife, but wait! you
get the amazing knife the cuts beer cans, turns lettuce into instand salads,
oh, but you also get the popiel pocket fisherman...all of this for the
amazingly low price of 19.95.......but wait!! you also get......." you get the
picture <grin>.
So Mark was saying, how can a game offer not 30, not 40, not 100, but over 200
teams and be a credible simulation??? Well....it proved to be true and many
people have come back time after time again....they have suffered through my
earlier years in programming when it seemed like there was an "update of the
week" and many other things.
However, the bottom line is that 3 in 1 has lived up to be a solid text-based
football simulation. Granted, it does not currently incorporate every single
player on the field. Namely, does not include offensive linemen and individual
blocking ratings. What 3 in 1 does include however, is every skill player rated
(rb, te, wr, qb, kr, pr, k, p, etc) and then have all players with sacks and
interceptions and we used overall team ratings to account for the effectiveness
of the offensive and defensive lines.
I have seen objective reviews smattered at various sites over the internet. Tom
Gerbassi is an excellent independent reviewer with Sidelines Magazine, The
Games People Play have done some reviews off and on as well.
If you know of reviewers I can send the game to for interet reviews, let me
know....we're not shy about having the game critiqued or reviewed.
I'm sort of skipping around as I read your letter, but if you want realism, you
will find it in our games. They're not flashy, they're not graphical by any
stretch, but the game engine is solid and sound.
I read your comments on copy protection. We tried that a little in the 1980's
and quickly abandoned it because it was too cumbersome and burdensome on the
end user and us. Overpricing? I would venture to say that our prices are if not
the lowest, are certainly near the bottom. Stability? We've been around since
1987 and have no plans of going anywhere else unless the consumers move out on
us. That is why customer support is so important and valuable. If you don't
take care of the customer, they have other options and games to select from.
And your last question.......you can certainly play the WHA season on Hattrick.
Our hockey seasons go back to the 1949-50 season all the way through the
present, complete with each season's schedule for autoplay capability.
Hope this begins to answer some of your questions.......if not, keep asking,
we'll get them answered.
Thanks,
Shannon Lynn
www.LHgames.com
Jonathan K.
>I remember reading Mark's review of 3 in 1 Football and him comparing the
>initial perception to that of some of the then popular late night cable ads
>about things like the Ginsu knives..."you not only get the knife, but wait! you
>get the amazing knife the cuts beer cans, turns lettuce into instand salads,
>oh, but you also get the popiel pocket fisherman...all of this for the
>amazingly low price of 19.95.......but wait!! you also get......." you get the
>picture <grin>.
You're with it. That was exactly the sort of impression I came away
from the ads with. Sort of 'it would be wonderful, if it were true,
but it can't be true'.
>So Mark was saying, how can a game offer not 30, not 40, not 100, but over 200
>teams and be a credible simulation??? Well....it proved to be true and many
>people have come back time after time again....they have suffered through my
>earlier years in programming when it seemed like there was an "update of the
>week" and many other things.
Updates are good, especially if they can be downloaded from website.
Mark's question is exactly the one in my mind. It's not that I doubt
your word; it's that, with regard to most of the sports sims I've ever
played, they aren't credible. Now there's this small company, with
about 8-9 sports sim products, offering simulation result realism that
goes beyond what some pretty well-funded companies can offer. Were
you the consumer, knowing only as much as I do, you'd probably be
trying to find out more, prepared for some sort of gotcha.
>However, the bottom line is that 3 in 1 has lived up to be a solid text-based
>football simulation. Granted, it does not currently incorporate every single
>player on the field. Namely, does not include offensive linemen and individual
>blocking ratings. What 3 in 1 does include however, is every skill player rated
>(rb, te, wr, qb, kr, pr, k, p, etc) and then have all players with sacks and
>interceptions and we used overall team ratings to account for the effectiveness
>of the offensive and defensive lines.
Ah. *This* is the sort of information that is important to me: to
know what is rated and what is abstracted. Let's go a little further
with it (because you might sell me the college football game, for
one). How many varieties of offensive and defensive playcalling does
it have? What if an offensive lineman returns a fumble--is that
handled generically? Do you call all the penalties in the book? How is
clock time handled? Are there injuries, and do you have a bench to go
to? Can you simulate the results for other teams so as to play, for
example, a Pac-10 season? Can you simulate them for all of college
football? Got bowl games? How does the selection occur? National
rankings? Numbers of votes, so that we can bicker over the perennial
over-rating of certain eastern schools just because East Coast
sportswriters can't conceive of how bloodily their teams'd be beaten
should they dare to come West? :)
>If you know of reviewers I can send the game to for interet reviews, let me
>know....we're not shy about having the game critiqued or reviewed.
I think Brett Todd, who's in charge of csipg.sports therapy at Gamepen
and does a fair bit of reviewing for Gamesdomain Review, would have an
interest, and he seems interested in many sports (even cricket, and he
isn't even British). I think he'd give your product a fair treatment
at GDR, and for my money, GDR is now the most worthwhile gaming site
on the net.
>I'm sort of skipping around as I read your letter, but if you want realism, you
>will find it in our games. They're not flashy, they're not graphical by any
>stretch, but the game engine is solid and sound.
That's no problem. I have been one of the most implacable and
venomous critics of EA for too much flash and too little game. I'm
more than receptive to something that gives me lots of game and little
or no flash.
>I read your comments on copy protection. We tried that a little in the 1980's
>and quickly abandoned it because it was too cumbersome and burdensome on the
>end user and us. Overpricing? I would venture to say that our prices are if not
>the lowest, are certainly near the bottom. Stability? We've been around since
>1987 and have no plans of going anywhere else unless the consumers move out on
>us. That is why customer support is so important and valuable. If you don't
>take care of the customer, they have other options and games to select from.
By 'stability' I meant that SOM crashed a lot on me, or the
installation went south, which combined with the copy protection
caused a situation that Sucked Big Time. I looked up your web page
and I'd say you're in the midst of the sports game pricing pack, so
that's not a concern. Hurrah for lack of copy protection.
>And your last question.......you can certainly play the WHA season on Hattrick.
>Our hockey seasons go back to the 1949-50 season all the way through the
>present, complete with each season's schedule for autoplay capability.
That's what I hear. What I am interested in is the mechanics of how
it works (not from the engine side, from the user interface side). Do
you set up three lines? Four? How many power play and shorthanded
units? Do players fatigue? Do you have all the penalties in hockey?
(Could someone theoretically, for example, get a match penalty for
headbutting?) Can you set your team to be more or less physical?
Neutral-zone trap? Heavy forechecking vs. tight backchecking? Pulling
goalie for sixth skater on delayed penalty?
>Hope this begins to answer some of your questions.......if not, keep asking,
>we'll get them answered.
It does, and I appreciate it. My proposal is that you flesh out this
level of information on your website for all of your games, so as to
give greater credibility to what you offer. I think there are a lot
of people out there who are sick of cheesy console game ports and
would give up the graphics for something that looked and felt like the
real game in terms of results.
--
Jonathan K.
Shannon Lynn
I'll jump right to where your questions begin on this one. You asked how many
varieties of offensive and defensive play calls are there? On offense there are
essentially 15 "basic" running plays (blast, dive, off tackle, toss sweep,
option, qb sneak, draw, trap, power sweep, quick pitch, quick trap, isolation,
sprint draw, over the top and counter). I know that some games get caught up
into which hole the back is going through and all of that, but that adds to the
complexity and we designed 3 in 1 so that it had all of the elements of
coaching, but that you didn't have to be a coach and know all of the x's and
o's to be able to play.
On defense, there are 10 line formations 3-4/4-3 configurations or if college,
4-3/5-2 (reads, pinches, stunts, pass rush). and then an additional 10 more
secondary formations ( various blitz packages, zone coverages, man coverages,
nickel, prevent, short pass, medium pass, etc) for a combination of 100
defensive setups.
If an offensive or defensive lineman returns a fumble, it is addressed
generically as you mentioned. Yes, we call all of the penalties in the book.
Clock time is handled with a set amount of time coming off of the clock for
each play executed. Timing is based on comprehensive studies correlating plays
per game, actual studies of timing, and other subjective factors such as time
remaining in the game and all.
There are not any injuries in 3 in 1, but it is a factor being considered in
the development on the new pro game. Simulating the results to play one team
versus a conference, or for that matter, the entire college field, is not a
problem at all.
In the scheduler, you can toggle any number of teams for "manual play". Thus,
you go into autoplay and say "I want to play games 1-100". Every time a team
you set to manual comes up, the game goes into mode for you to coach.
So, to answer your question, it will play an entire season, 1000+ games, do
leaders, rankings and the like. However, it doesn't seed up/pair/or match
contestants for bowl games or the like.
However, you can argue with the screen all you like about who gets ranked where
and why and who beat who and such.
Thanks for the tip on Brett Todd...I'll try finding his website and contacting
him.
As far as lots of game for minimal flash....that's exactly what we are and
that's exactly what you'll get (in a positive way LOL).
Let's see what's next........stability....I am not aware of any problems with 3
in 1 crashing or such. The only game I have experienced any recent crashes with
were our Pro Basketball game which has since been resolved and the baseball
game that has also been resolved. Each of those would crash with there was a
calculation that involved a "division by zero" situation.
Lastly, to your hockey questions. Great questions and it will show the
flexibility of the game. Because we design with the past in mind as much as the
future, you can set up for each team 4/3 or 3/2 lines. With the teams from the
60's and such, you definitely need the 3/2. On shorthanded and power play, you
can set up 2 power play lines and 2 shorthanded lines and of course, both can
be substituted into and out of in a game situation depending upon fatigue,
penalty situations, etc.
Yes, you can get a match penalty for headbutting, high sticking, and so on. You
can select from several different strategy options. neutral zone trap, heavy
forechecking, tight backchecking, just as you stated. Sometimes our strategy
name might be slightly different, but it is what you are asking about.
Oh, and yes....you can pull the goalie in those tight games for a 6th attacker.
The only feature we have not incorporated is a delayed penalty. That is the one
thing that should probably be looked at, but has not been something that anyone
else previously asked. Primarily, it's been to keep that routine more
simplified <grin>. But since you asked, I don't mind sharing that.
Keep the questions coming!!
Thanks,
Shannon
www.LHgames.com
William Abner
>If you know of reviewers I can send the game to for interet reviews, let me
>know....we're not shy about having the game critiqued or reviewed.
Shannon,
I know of several sports writers that would enjoy evaluating these
products. Myself, Brett Todd (Brett writes for us, GDR, Gamepen, and
CGW), Jeff Lackey (CGW) and Rob Smolka of PC Gamer for starters. We
all enjoy a good text simulation.
-bill
--
William Abner - wab...@cdmag.com
Sports Community Manager
Computer Games Online; Computer Games Strategy Plus
Join the CGO Sports Forum and Newsletter:
http://www.cdmag.com
Shannon Lynn
If you'll email me an address, I'll make sure a copy gets out to you and others
you recommend.
Thanks,
Shannon
www.LHgames.com
Jeff Riddolls
>Granted, it does not currently incorporate every single
>player on the field. Namely, does not include offensive linemen and individual
>blocking ratings. What 3 in 1 does include however, is every skill player rated
>(rb, te, wr, qb, kr, pr, k, p, etc) and then have all players with sacks and
>interceptions and we used overall team ratings to account for the effectiveness
>of the offensive and defensive lines.
This makes the game wonderful for replay-oriented gamers, and I've
done a couple of fun college seasons where I realigned the conferences
and set up a playoff system.
But to me, the minimal number of individual ratings, and complete lack
of subjective ratings, is the area in which 3 in 1 loses some of its
appeal. For example, IIRC a running back is rated in exactly four
categories: number of carries, yards per carry, number of receptions,
and yards per reception. In a short-yardage situation, it makes more
sense to put in a Barry Sanders than a John Riggins, since the game
doesn't evaluate whether or not a player always gets 3-4 yards, or
will lose three and then break off a forty-yard run. It's possible to
"trade" players, but doing so undermines the statistical model.
Terrell Davis will average the same number of yards running behind the
Saints' line as he will for the Broncos. And in the college game,
major-conference teams that run up scores and stats against hopeless
opponents (*cough* - Gators - *cough*) tend to get overrated (although
there is a good system for toning down the performance of schools in
weaker conferences against, say, SEC schools.)
The trade-off is the simple model allows those huge data disks to be
produced. It would be unworkable to do accurate subjective ratings
for all of those teams - where are you going to get that kind of
detail about the third-string fullback at Florida A&M?
All in all, 3 in 1 is a very good deal for the money for people
interested in doing pure or slightly modified replays. Not so good
for anybody who wants to re-draft all the players onto different
teams, and pretty much useless for multiple-player leagues.
(Side note to Jonathan K. - what is it about wargamers and text-based
sports games? You, me, and Todd Klemme in the same thread. Now go
get that TOAW2 Berlin scenario finished. :) )
Shannon Lynn
Thanks for the note. You make some excellent points and observations.
Concerning running backs and things of that nature. I know that some sims
include an inside, outside, or both rating. This is a feature that is
definitely in the new pro game in the works and wouldn't be overly difficult to
modify the existing game to use such a subjective rating. Typically, and
"inside" back is your John Riggins type of back. It's not a flawless system,
but it does provide an additional level of refinement.
True, as you say, 3 in 1 was not initially developed as a model to take players
and trade and mix and match teams. That is one of the primary reasons that we
saw the need to precipitate and work on a different pro game to handle just
this scenario. Now, if you're strictly a replay gamer and like keeping teams as
they are and doing different seasons or taking teams from different years for a
"super league", 3 in 1 is ideal.
I like your comment on moving a powerful back from one team to another and it
makes me throw out a theoretical question for feedback........just how much
does an offensive line really contribute to the rushing average of a back? I've
read different studies and reports that yield surprising results. It's a tough
evaluation, in my opinion, because you don't see a lot of backs move around
during their prime. The studies I read indicated that the back is responsible
for 80% of his effort and the line only 20%. A rather shocking statistic.
Anyways, to your next to last question <grin>...yes the system is currently
designed more of a power rating poll rather than a voting poll. Thus, it is to
your advantage to run up the score (ala Spurrier....Gators). I have been
evaluating a couple of minor changes that would in essence combine the power
ratings and school losses in general to move down teams in the poll to get a
cross between the AP/USA Today and the power ratings.
<<where are you going to get that kind of
detail about the third-string fullback at Florida A&M? >> surprisingly, that
data is very readily available. Since so many of the major schools' and
conferences' information is readily available, I have the opportunity to talk
to SID's of a lot of the Div I-AA schools. They are more than excited to know
that their schools and teams are represented in our database.
But like you said, in all fairness, 3 in 1 as it is, is definitely not geared
for re-drafting or for multiple player leagues.......unless you want to keep
the various teams intact as they are on the disks.
I have personally played in leagues of about 10 or so where we each took a
college team of our choice 54 Oklahoma, 83 Nebraska, etc. and played that way.
Also, we did try a draft league one time, but like you said, with the defensive
ratings being objective, yet representing an entire secondary or line or such,
it was cumbersome.
So, in closing, the need is definitely there to "expand" the football game. I
assume you would be in agreement with me though that the game engine and
statistical model itself is right on?
I appreciate your input and like I said, you have made excellent points worth
incorporating and evaluating. I look forward to hearing back from you soon.
Sincerely,
Shannon
www.LHgames.com
Dan Fox
You and I were in contact with each other several years ago, concerning
ideas you were trying to implement into the College Basketball game. For
other who are hesitant to try these games let me say this: Of ALL the games
I have ever had for ANY computer system I have had-- from the Commodore 64
to my present day K6-3 450Mhz, BY FAR the most enjoyment and longest term
replayability I have EVER had is with these Haffner games. I can't tell you
how many nights when I was out of school I would stay up all night in the
summer and play game after game, season after season with ALL of the major
Haffner sports titles. Baseball, NBA and College basketball, 3 in 1
Football, as well as hockey. I also couldn't help but enjoy the countless
hours I spent playing the professional wrestling game which you were
producing. If I had paid $1000 each for those games, I still would have
felt as though I was getting over. Thanks to you Shannon, as well as to
Lance for the enormous amount of entertainment you have provided to me in
the past. I look forward to updating all of my collection of games soon,
and seeing where the last few years have led you both...
Dan Fox
the...@comsys.net
ECCI LR wrote in message <19990915150946...@ng-fk1.aol.com>...
>I have noticed that there is not much activity or discussion on Lance
Haffner
>Games, or for that matter, any of the other text-based sims. Anyways, we at
>Haffner Games are working to find out what it is that you, the gamer, is
>looking for a desiring in future modifications of our gaming line. Already
>there is college and pro football, college and pro basketball, baseball,
>hockey, wrestling, and nascar.
>
>I am looking for programming ideas and input on ways to improve, enhance,
and
>modify the above-mentioned titles. Let us know what you think.......ideas,
>suggestions, comments, and yes, even criticism.
>
>The computer gaming world has undergone a vast transformation over the
twelve
>years that I have been personally been involved and I don't see that
changing
>any time soon.
>
>Another two questions to throw out for email or discussion.........if
you've
>stopped playing Haffner games........I would genuinely like to know why and
>secondly, what would it take for you to try them again?
>
>Thanks,
>Shannon
>
>sha...@LHgames.com
Jeff Riddolls
>Concerning running backs and things of that nature. I know that some sims
>include an inside, outside, or both rating. This is a feature that is
>definitely in the new pro game in the works and wouldn't be overly difficult to
>modify the existing game to use such a subjective rating. Typically, and
>"inside" back is your John Riggins type of back. It's not a flawless system,
>but it does provide an additional level of refinement.
Another way of doing it, if you can get stats for the distance of each
of a back's runs, is to figure out the standard deviation. In the
game engine, use the standard deviation to regulate the amount a given
run can vary from the player's average gain. That way, Riggins can be
depended on to get across on 4th and goal from the two, while Sanders
would have a good chance of getting stopped behind the line (but he'd
also be much more likely to break off a 50-yard run from midfield.)
>I like your comment on moving a powerful back from one team to another and it
>makes me throw out a theoretical question for feedback........just how much
>does an offensive line really contribute to the rushing average of a back? I've
>read different studies and reports that yield surprising results. It's a tough
>evaluation, in my opinion, because you don't see a lot of backs move around
>during their prime. The studies I read indicated that the back is responsible
>for 80% of his effort and the line only 20%. A rather shocking statistic.
That sounds reasonable. Walter Payton, to name just one, played
behind some pretty bad lines early in his career and still put up
great numbers. The effect of the line's play on a quarterback's
passing performance is probably a lot more significant. But even if
their effect isn't that significant in the game engine, I'd still like
to see some sort of individual ratings for linemen and defensive
players. I'd even be happy with a very generic, approximated system
that assumed that anybody on Nebraska's OL would get least a
hypothetical 7 out 10 rating for run blocking, and increased that
rating for acknowledged stars.
>Anyways, to your next to last question <grin>...yes the system is currently
>designed more of a power rating poll rather than a voting poll. Thus, it is to
>your advantage to run up the score (ala Spurrier....Gators).
I was referring less to the poll system than to the way a team's
real-life stats get inflated by easy games. When Spurrier schedules
Hamburger University and the Ringling Brothers Clown College as
opponents, that bumps up his QB's completion percentage and lowers the
number of yards per play his defense gives up. That gives them an
advantage in 3 in 1 over schools that schedule nonconference games
against legitimate opponents and don't puff up their stats.
The way I'd handle that issue would be to take a final ranking of all
schools (and there are a bunch of these on the web, in addition to the
big ones, so putting together a composite would be easy), then
calculate strength-of-schedule for each team and use that to determine
the "power rating" (can't remember if that's the right term, I mean
the one that reduces the performance for bad-conference teams against
good-conference ones.)
>So, in closing, the need is definitely there to "expand" the football game. I
>assume you would be in agreement with me though that the game engine and
>statistical model itself is right on?
Oh, absolutely. The trick is keeping it that way when you "expand"
the game. I notice that you've referred to revamping the *pro* game.
Will the college portion not be getting the same treatment? The
market for text-based pro football games is pretty well served right
now (Front Office Football, APBA, Dave Koch's game), but there's not
much at all available for us college football fans. At any rate,
thanks for taking the time to ask for feedback. It's not often that
we get a developer or programmer posting in this group for a purpose
other than hyping an upcoming release.
John Rodriguez
are only one of a few sites (there are more out there I can't remember them
all) that have reviewed Action! PC Football and Out Of The Park
Baseball...not exaclty your mainstream games, CDMag also takes a look at
some of the not-so-well-known games. There's a lot of people out there
willing to give fair reviews to smaller companies.
--
John Rodriguez - jo...@ga-sports.com
Contributing Editor
www.ga-sports.com
William Abner <wab...@cdmag.com> wrote in message
news:37e14cd7...@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu...
Jonathan K.
>All in all, 3 in 1 is a very good deal for the money for people
>interested in doing pure or slightly modified replays. Not so good
>for anybody who wants to re-draft all the players onto different
>teams, and pretty much useless for multiple-player leagues.
Appreciate the analysis. I can live without the redrafting and
multiple-player stuff, but from what you describe, there's a lot of
abstraction with regard to non-skill players. As a former non-skill
player (except holding for placekicks--I was the slow, small,
second-string tackle with pickpocket's hands), I kind of like to see
the offensive line at least rated.:)
>(Side note to Jonathan K. - what is it about wargamers and text-based
>sports games? You, me, and Todd Klemme in the same thread. Now go
>get that TOAW2 Berlin scenario finished. :) )
I suspect that the same wiring that enables grog wargamers to
appreciate the deeper simulations (and made them boardgamers once upon
a time) enables us to appreciate a good text-based sports sim. Funny
you should mention Berlin '85: in six hours I sit down to meet with a
native Berliner and her visiting father, maps in hand, to iron out
some of the errors in the boardgame map and decide exactly what sort
of terrain belongs where. It's definitely still a going concern,
though I'm not sure who might distribute it anymore with TGN and TW
both sold out to IEN.
--
Jonathan K.
Shannon Lynn
I love your comments and feedback and am keeping them along with all of the
others I have printed off the last two or three days. I realize just how much
that I, personally, have missed by not being more "hands-on" the past two or
three years to be rather blunt and realistic about it. To philosophize rather
briefly, it's too easy to grow complacent. Anyways, back to your comments and
letter.......
I'm not sure of any source, pro or college, that would give the distance of
each run for a back unless you were just charting the games, but your theory
would work if you had a database of that magnitude. I think I'll stick to the
I, O, or B (inside, outside, both)...but, maybe some additional indicator to
indicate usage for powerful, short yardage situations because that is a valid
situational role that some fullbacks are used in.
You mentioned going to a generic system for the linemen as a step in the
direction of including all players......that is exactly the idea that I have
been working on for the revised college portion. Bigger schools from the major
conferecnes will be able to provide all of that information, there is exposure
and much greater knowledge and such. The generics then, would be more
applicable for the Prairie View's and such, though, it is amazing how much
information I get even on those schools. But, your point is an excellent one
and one that is in serious consideration.
On the ratings, poll system, inflating stats and such........even though Fla
might be puffing up their stats, that will be reflected in their strength of
schedule rating. When we rate teams and stats and make adjustments, it's not
the team's power rating that we use, but that ever important strength of
schedule. So, while the cupcakes make the "raw" numbers look fantastic, the SOS
adjustments notch them back to the rest of the pack. 3 in 1 uses both an
offensive and defensive adjustment based on the SOS.....so on that one, hidden
to everyone else, unless you really enjoy inputting teams, we're doing exactly
what you suggest.
On the pro versus college game, yes...I keep mentioning the pro game because
that is one area where we feel the there can be a lot of improvement to the
market in terms of strategy, options, and playabiltiy. As far as college, it
still has a long way to go as well and will benefit from the changes being made
along the lines of the pro game....namely, rating offensive linemen, etc.
Oh...your last comment...."thanks for taking the time to ask for feedback.
It's not often that
we get a developer or programmer posting in this group for a purpose
other than hyping an upcoming release."
I won't say that I'll never hype a product or such, but I sincerely look for
feedback and comments and I thank you for sharing yours.
Thanks for the comments Jeff and hope you have a great weekend!
Shannon
www.LHgames.com
Shannon Lynn
Would love to send you a copy of any of the titles you would like to review. I
skimmed your website but couldn't find a mailing address. Please email me your
contact information, if you would and I'll see that it gets taken care of.
Thanks for the response,
Shannon
www.LHgames.com
Shannon Lynn
Ahhhhhhh....I see the interest now in the offensive linemen. Well, I can
relate...in high school I played the odd combination of offensive tackle and
middle linebacker...as you well know, the OT doesn't get a lot of recognition
until he misses a block <grin>.
Anyways, while those guys don't get recognition in our games now........their
time is quickly coming!!
Have a great weekend,
Shannon
www.LHgames.com
Shannon Lynn
What can I say other than THANK YOU! I know there were some others who were
looking for unbiased opinions and such of the different titles and I guess to
some degree you have provided that and I appreciate it. Where do I need to send
that check?? <just kidding>. Seriously though, please feel free to write with
whatever you would like to know. I'm in Arkansas still...finally back after
graduating from Fayetteville (U of A) in '89 and having stints in Houston and
New Orleans. Lance is still in Nashville and married with 3 kids.
Thanks for the encouraging words and hope you have a great weekend as well!!
Shannon
www.LHgames.com
David Gray
Haffner Games were my first sports computer games. I bought the baseball,
football, wrestling, basketball, and boxing. One of the reasons I drifted
away is the difficulty in determining when updates were out and then the
pain of obtaining an update (sending back floppy disks, etc.). The web site
uses the same verbiage as when I first bought 3 in 1 almost a decade ago.
What is needed?
A web site that gives detailed up-to-date information on product content and
availability.
The ability to order over the web and receive products via email.
Those would be an enormous help. I'm less sure on the products themselves
as I suspect I haven't the current editions. But both the baseball and
football would benefit enormously from the ability to draft players against
the computer.
I really loved Haffner games and I still have a warm spot for them. What I
need is for Haffner Games to make it reasonably easy to act on that
affection and inform me of what is available and in the pipeline. Websites
are easy, there is no excuse for the current HG website debacle.
Best wishes,
Dave
ECCI LR <ecc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990915150946...@ng-fk1.aol.com...
Shannon Lynn
Your name brings warm memories to me as well. I remember you from wayyyyyyy
back when. Always with great comments on the football game, many of which were
actually incorporated. I wish I had more control or access over the existing
website, but I do not. However, another avid Haffner gamer is already in the
process of developing a site to answer the questions and give more detailed
information that everyone is looking for.
I appreciate your comments and am excited to hear from you. I know there have
to be more of the "old school" out there somewhere <grin>. We're going to get
it right, no doubt about that. In this business, customer service/accessibility
makes up 80% or better of how things go.
I hope you stay in touch and keep more comments coming....good or bad.....we
have to know.
Sincerely,
Shannon
www.LHgames.com
Jonathan K.
>Ahhhhhhh....I see the interest now in the offensive linemen. Well, I can
>relate...in high school I played the odd combination of offensive tackle and
>middle linebacker...as you well know, the OT doesn't get a lot of recognition
>until he misses a block <grin>.
Yeah, I remember it well. The hardshell helmet as the great
equalizer, and being often trampled by well-pastured Oregon farm boys.
My suggestions for better marketing of LH games would be, partly
inspired by what I've seen in this discussion:
1) Demos. Gamers, as a group, have over their gaming histories
purchased many cheesy products. If LH games have a nice flow to them,
are easy to use, and give the feel of actual coaching, the demo will
show this. Pricewise you are in there with the crowd, but you offer
less in some ways and more in others, and thus must compete fiercely.
These days people expect a demo version.
2) Improve the website. For $20 per month or so, essentially, after
you invest the time to create an informative site, you get advertising
to a massive number of buyers. You can draw attention to it through
newsgroup posts (and I suspect that the lurker:poster ratio is around
10:1, or maybe higher) any time a new version is released of a product
without fear that you will be looked on negatively for pitching your
product in a discussion group--after all, no one complains if we get a
poster from one of the big guys saying 'EA Sports Badminton 2000 has
gone gold and should hit stores February 28'. That's information on
topic. Screenshots, demos, and long lists of supported features could
all be part of the presentation on the site.
3) Continue to monitor the newsgroup for any reference to your games.
By starting this thread and opening discussion, there is no telling
the number of potential customers you've alerted to your existence,
and through a positive presentation and attitude you've apparently
made up for the impressions of some who say they never heard back from
the company some years ago. (What LHG did five years ago has no
effect on the quality of our gaming experience today; it's what you're
up to currently that is relevant.)
4) I think you already realize this (and I see no evidence that it
would be a factor), but never, never, never get defensive or be drawn
into a flaming issue, even if confronted with the most hostile person
with an illegitimate complaint. Remain preturnaturally upbeat. It's
really kind of silly, because inevitably someone will come along who
will truly deserve being told to attempt self-impregnation. Even if
you're right, it still hurts you. I've seen the whole Derek Smart
miniseries, I've seen someone named Mike Senna, I've seen even Norm
Koger get drawn into bickering, and they all came out looking worse
than if they hadn't responded.
If some demos and screenshots get put up on the site, please post
about it--I'd peruse them, and you've got a fair chance to sell some
games.
--
Jonathan K.
Joel Mesaros
<37e2d2a3...@news.gte.net>:
A Haffner question for Shannon, what is the status of the soccer game? I
believe Anthony Apollostico (sp?) wrote it. It was a great first
attempt. However, when I provided feedback, I had to email it twice in
order to get a response that just thanked me for my feedback but provided
no answers to my questions.
Thanks!
Shannon Lynn
I'll be honest with you.....I simply don't know. The soccer project was one
that I was not directly involved with and have never spoken to the developers
or the programmers. I played the game a couple of times myself, but then again,
soccer just doesn't do anything for me.
I'm glad there are soccer fans out there though, because the game sold pretty
well during the World Cup hysteria not too long ago.
I wish I had better information for you on that, but I just don't. Now, if it's
baseball, college or pro football, college or pro basketball, or
hockey........well...then I can give you an "earful".
I know a little about the NASCAR sim since I did all of the driver sets back
into the 50's and first years of NASCAR, but Tom Mink is the
programmer/developer of that game and I believe he is working on a Windows
version of it and the Indy simulation.
Wish I could have been of more help. I assume you've already contact Lance on
this one?
Sincerely,
Shannon Lynn
www.LHgames.com
Shannon Lynn
Excellent advice and points well taken. Yes, I learned a LONG time ago to never
be defensive, argumentative, or condescending to the customer or person posting
feedback. To the contrary, I've found that listening, giving "freebies", trying
to work through for a solution and all is the best route to take.
Have a great weekend!
Shannon
www.LHgames.com
Pumbaa
Right now I'm working on a WIN 98 version of NASCAR, wth an INDY game being
pushed back. The game is going to be ready before the start of the NASCAR
season. It currently needs help files and reporting routines, but the game
itself is 90% finished. Lance and I have discontinued the old DOS game as
newer machines will not run some of the DOS toolkit routines.
Thanks
TM
Shannon Lynn <ecc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990918004142...@ng-bd1.aol.com...
> Joel,
>
> I know a little about the NASCAR sim since I did all of the driver sets
back
> into the 50's and first years of NASCAR, but Tom Mink is the
> programmer/developer of that game and I believe he is working on a Windows
> version of it and the Indy simulation.
> Shannon Lynn
> www.LHgames.com
Shannon Lynn
all of those old driver sets, did a copy ever get sent to you? It had the
schedules as well with them.
Look forward to hearing back from you,
Shannon
www.LHgames.com
Paul Sauberer
I remember following posts you made to the Prodigy bulletin boards back in
the early 90s. Those were the days when I had my 386SX-16 and played SOM
version 2 and Dave Holt's football games.
I never got around to buying any Haffner games. It's just been too easy to
go to SOM locally to me (I live on Long Island) when I want to pick up
baseball items.
My hockey league left SOM since they didn't offer a computer game. We didn't
consider Hat Trick at the time because we had some members without a
computer and limited our options to APBA or Faceoff.
As to what would make me FINALLY get around to buying a Haffner game (or two
or three or four, etc.)
1. Demos. It is hard to plunk down money today without having an idea of
what you're getting. I have quite a few games that looked great in the
package and then ended up collecting dust.
2. A first class website. Dittos for other comments in the thread.
3. Customer service. Including speedy answers to questions. For instance, I
am looking for a sim which will allow me to pick up an old "all time all
star" league I played in teh early 80s with the Statis Pro board game. Could
I do this with Full Count? I'd need to be able to import individual players
from different seasons into my league. Can I do it? Would the cost be
reasonable? OOTP looked like it would be the game I was looking for, but
with all of its problems, I will not buy it. Plus it is a DOS game which
leads me to the last factor...
4. A Windows environment. I don't want to invest any considerable amount of
money or effort into a DOS game, since it is likely to be obsolete with my
next computer purchase in a couple of years.
So, that is what it will take to get me to consider joining the Haffner fold
(but I won't give any guarantees).
I hope this is the kind of input you're looking for.
Paul Sauberer
Shannon Lynn
It is exactly the kind of input that I am looking for and I am glad that you
took the time to chime in with new points and to reiterate/emphasize some that
have already been shared. You had mentioned an 80's super league and such. Yes,
you could do this with Full Count, because we have every season available back
to 1871. The cost to do that, well, it will be a little, but not as much as it
used to be. Right now, and I think I'm right on this, there is a 5 pack for
$40, or $8 per older season. That would be $80 to covers the 80's. As these
older seasons become even more older (and how I hate that), there is less and
less demand for them and so some more creative pricing plans might need to be
developed. Obviously, it doesn't do us much good to have all of these seasons
and no one buying them.
Anyways, FC is a Visual Basic for DOS based program at this time, but will be
gradually converted to VB Windows, which will be no small undertaking, but
do-able.
Thanks for the comments,
Shannon
www.LHgames.com
JoelDeLeon
Lance Haffner Journal. When this publication ceased publishing due to lack of
funds and fan interest, I figured LHG would be next down the toilet. Since
nobody ever sent me literature indicating otherwise I thought you guys were
done too. Then a few months ago, I got a flyer for World Cup Soccer and
visited your web page. The page looked a little dull but seeing that you guys
were still in business I went ahead and bought what I hoped was an updated Full
Count baseball along with a few season disks from the 80's since I wanted
season disks with lefty/righty breakdowns.
Full Count turned out to be a bit of a disappointment. It was still in the DOS
interface which isn't necessarily bad; I think good DOS programs tend to be
tighter than Windows programs. However the game didn't seem to be updated much
from the version I played in the 80's. The play-by-play was a bit boring by
today's standards compared to the play-by-play I've seen from Diamond Mind and
Cactus.
After getting the season disks, I noticed that some of the diskettes did not
have lefty/righty breakdowns. It said in your brochure sent to me, that I
could send back any season diskettes that didn't have the lefty/right
breakdowns for diskettes that did have them. When I called your customer
support they didn't seem to know what I was talking about. The lady said she'd
check with Lance, took my phone number but I never got a reply..... Just as I
was about to become a loyal customer again, I never bought another game or
product from that point on.
Back in the 80's, I used to own Full Count, Basketball: the Pro Game,
Breakpoint Tennis, and TKO Boxing, I never got the Football game but was
looking into it. Will there ever be an update to the Tennis game? I tend to
prefer graphics games based on good statistical engines but since you guys are
in the text/sim world a Windows interface would probably be nice. I really
like APBA's Ernie Harwell commentary and I'd like to see another game company
incorporate that sort of thing so I wouldn't have to strain my eyes reading
replay after replay. My eyesight is shot as it is looking at a computer
monitor all day at work.
Anyway, I know I covered a few things here in terms of support, customer
loyalty, and suggestions for the future. I'm not the vindictive type so I will
purchase another Lance Haffner product in the future but everything just looks
so outdated at this point. If you can do anything to get me those updated
season disks that would be greatly appreciated and if you have any seasons
before the 80's that have lefty/righty breakdowns for baseball I would purchase
those too.
That's all for now.
- Joel D.
Shannon Lynn
Thanks for your note. I think I can answer about everything you had in there.
Like you, I hated that the Journal wasn't able survive. I guess that was about
1992 or so, but from a gaming standpoint, sales have remained steady and strong
with the fan base that has been supporting the games close to 12 years now.
I don't think there's any argument that the "official" web page could use some
sprucing up and I would be looking for that. To supplement that point, an
"unofficial" web site has sprung up that will be carrying current version
information, program news, etc. That site is
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Lodge/9609/BC2.html
You indicated you had recently purchased Full Count and that it wasn't much
different from the game in the 80's? I would have to know what version number
that you had since the play by play is actually quite verbose now, though
there's only so many ways to describe a fly ball or ground ball, but I would
like to know what version that you have. I've never looked at the cactus game,
so I don't know what it has. I've played DMB because I like it and think Tom's
an alright guy. However, the pbp, other than adding the scoring at the end, is
not significantly different from FC.
L/R stats are available on season disks from 1980-present. That data has been
provided by the Baseball Workshop, Total Sports, and Retrosheet. Which seasons
did you purcahse that did not include the L/R data? Since you already have the
teams, I'll only have to send the supplemental file.
Funny you asked about the tennis game, I was just playing it this past week for
the US Open. Davenport and Williams mainly.
The only seasons prior to the 80's currently that has situational data is the
1964 AL and the 1967 AL.
If you check out the web site above, it will give a list of the current
versions on each game. However, in regards to your Windows question, those
versions are coming....not necessarily rapid fast, but coming.
I appreciate your continued interest and if I've not answered something or not
clear enough, keep writing.
Thanks,
Shannon
www.LHgames.com
Kelly J Delaney
like to see injuries in the 3 in 1 football games. I would also like to see
a non random quarterback in the games. Also, does the 98-99 courtside disk
come with the complete schedule? Keep doing a great job with the games.
--
Kelly J Delaney
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day"
ECCI LR <ecc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990915225406...@ng-fo1.aol.com...
> Dave,
>
> You make some excellent points that I am getting in response from others.
Demos
> for each of the games are probably running a close tie for first along
with
> producing Windows based formats for each of the games.
>
> To answer your specific questions, yes..you can play out an entire pro or
> college season. Unlike other college sims, we include EVERY Division I-A
and
> I-AA college that took the field. That's everyone from Florida State down
to
> Iona or Stony Brook. Each team is rated according to strength of schedule
and
> power ratings. The ENTIRE college schedule is included with each season.
Our
> complete college seasons run from now back to the 1956 college football
season.
> In addition, the league leaders portion will calculate a weekly poll for
you
> much as the ones in USA Today or the RPI polls.
>
> So, there is a "true" college football sim with real players and real
stats. In
> addition, we have every pro football team back to 1940...AAFC, AFL, USFL,
WFL,
> WLAF, and NFL with complete schedules. Three in one originally dervied its
name
> when it was college, USFL, and NFL back in the mid 1980s.
>
> Thanks for your two cents......hope I was able to answer your questions.
If you
> have more, keep em coming.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Shannon
Shannon Lynn
Thanks for the post and comments. The current version of 3 in 1 is 6.2, and
actually the previous versions back to 5 or even 4 allowed you to pick the
specific quarterbacks for a game. Both the scheduler and the standard game play
would allow you to pick one listed or prorate the time in the game between the
QBs.
On to Courtside, yes.......there is a COMPLETE, almost 3000+ games schedule
with the 98-99 teams that covers all 300+ schools. I take my hat off to a great
friend in St. Louis, MO, Tim Meegan who dutifully inputs the entire college
basketball schedule this year and for the 97-98 team disk. Tim has also done
the complete college and pro football schedules for us the last 5 years or so.
If there's anything else I can answer, just let me know.
Thanks,
Shannon
www.LHgames.com
BRS89
My question about the 3-1 Football. Is there a player editor? Can I put my name
in as the 1969 Texas Longhorns quarterback and watch myself have text based
glory?
Haven't heard anything about this, so it's no biggee either way, just always a
neat feature. I have FOF2 and wish I could have a team with me and all my
friends mythically winning the championship, since we failed so miserably in
real life.
Thanks,
Brandon
Shannon Lynn
Yes, it has a player editor.......so if you want to be QB instead of James
Street, it's all yours to be <grin>. Hmmmmmm...is that a poke at an Arkansas
graduate????
Thanks for the question,
Shannon
www.LHgames.com
Mike C.
Because of the open forum and quick response to posts from
Shannon, I have taken the plunge and ordered 3-In-1 Football. Although
I still have some concerns (mainly an answering machine that sounds
like my Mom's at home), the deciding factor was that Lance Haffner
Games seems to have at least one employee who ADAMANTLY stands behind
their product, customer service, etc, in a public forum. No small feat
considering I don't see anyone from Strat, APBA, DMB, or any others
here recently. And knowing I have someone I can publicly take to task
if something goes wrong is sickeningly satisfying to me... Shannon
eased my fears basically by assuring me I could blast her on these
boards if anything went wrong.
So, I was told it would take 10-14 days for the game to
get to me, so after a couple of days of playing (I suggest in that time
I will have played a good 50 games... first up will be my '92 Cowboys
against my Dad's childhood hero's, the '72 Dolphins) I will give a
thorough review from a regular sports simmer who thinks realism is key.
Until then, I'll be checking my mail daily.
Mike
"Sports is to me what air is to most people..."
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
RonKan
try playing a prevent defense on 4th down!
Ron Kantowski
Shannon Lynn
try playing a prevent defense on 4th down!>>
Ouch Ron! is that a reference to the 1969 game? I was not around at that time,
well, 5 years old, but grew up in Missouri. Arkansas has been an "adopted" home
and having graduated from Fayetteville, where my college sports ties now go.
It's interesting, and I'd love to hear from those that actually saw the game in
1969. I had always heard about "the pass" from James Street to Randy Peschel.
However, ESPN Classic recently aired that game and that pass, while leading to
the go-ahead score, was not what beat Arkansas. Arkansas, having outplayed
Texas for the majority of the game, failed to capitalize on six Texas
turnovers. When teams make mistakes, you have to make them pay and Arkansas
just didn't do it.
As for a college football game in general, it was a great game to watch..and
what a loaded backfield that Texas had in Bertelsen, Worster, and Koy!
Shannon
www.LHgames.com
Shannon Lynn
boards if anything went wrong.>>
Just so you knew Mike....not a "her"...a "him" <grin>.
Shannon
www.LHgames.com
Mike C.
"Just so you knew Mike....not a "her"...a "him" <grin>."
Heck Shannon, I skirted around the issue for about a week. At
least now I know. I figured a guy, but by putting her I stayed away
from the "what a sexist bastard" comments just in case. lol
Mike
"Sports is to me what air is to most people..."
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Shannon Lynn
>least now I know. I figured a guy, but by putting her I stayed away
>from the "what a sexist bastard" comments just in case. lol
>
> Mike
LOL.........that is the day we live in, isn't it?
Shannon
www.LHgames.com
Bill Clifton
into Shannon Lynn.
http://messages.yahoo.com/bbs?action=m&tid=1a0a1549414f4d&sid=1a0a1549414f4d
3&mid=1&g=1
Also check out the web page for downloads and more.
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Lodge/9609/BC2.html
Jeff Jones
Mike C. wrote in message <7semor$6df$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>
>
> "Just so you knew Mike....not a "her"...a "him" <grin>."
>
You "skirted" around the issue ... lol ... good pun
wtpfe...@gmail.com
Is Shannon still monitoring this?
