Re: Is this a console thing?

[Xocyll]

Zaghadka <zagh...@hotmail.com> looked up from reading the entrails of
the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:

>On Sun, 28 Apr 2013 08:25:01 -0500, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,
>Xocyll wrote:
>
>>So, I was pondering some of the egregious stupidities in Skyrim and the
>>worst has to be the way you become the leader of various organizations
>>despite having been with those organizations a _very_ short time.
>>
>>You start with two spells (flames and healing), are forced to learn heal
>>other in order to join the Mage College and have to learn frostbite in
>>order to get through the labyrinthian mission.
>>
>>So you can quite literally be a warrior type who doesn't really use
>>magic, knows all of 4 spells at novice level AND be the Arch-Mage.
>>
>>Ditto the thieves guild - yeah sure you uncovered the previous leaders
>>deception, but that automatically makes you the new leader, despite
>>other members having been in the guild for years?
>>
>>The Dark brotherhood - well that one makes sense, you're the Listener
>>after all and just whacked the Emperor. But then again, why was the
>>player made "the listener"?
>>
>>Honestly, you can become the leader of a guild in a couple of days with
>>totally sub-par guild skills just because they wrote it that way, not
>>because you're qualified or earned it.
>>
>>This is like you going to college to take, oh I dunno, Network
>>Engineering or something, being 2 weeks into a multi-year course when
>>terrorists plant a bomb on campus which you discover and defuse, saving
>>the school. At which point they not only hand you your degree, they
>>make you a tenured professor and the Dean of the school.
>>
>>It just doesn't happen that way in any reality except *really* bad
>>movies and equally horrible books.
>>
>>Wanna be Arch-Mage, you do a shitload of things for the school, and know
>>ALL the spells (which for Skyrim isn't many but would at least require a
>>90 skill in all mage schools which would take some time to accomplish.)
>>Anything less makes a total mockery of the _College_, and what school
>>would allow that?
>>What does it say about a school, when their top guy knows _less_ than
>>the average freshman applicant?
>>
>>So as the title says, is this outright gifting of titles and leadership
>>roles a console thing?
>>I don't do consoles and I don't recall ever just being handed guild
>>leadership when totally unqualified in PC Games.
>>Usually you have to do a shitload of things to earn the top slot and
>>actually be qualified for it skill-wise.
>>
>>Is this "You're the hero of the story and by the end of the game you not
>>only save the world, you GET EVERYTHING handed to you" thing a staple in
>>the console world?
>>
>
>Nah, that was a staple c. Baldur's Gate (1998), and hasn't really left
>the genre since. Especially now that you don't have parties.

I don't remember you getting handed anything in Baldur's Gate you didn't
have to earn first.

I don't recall any guilds you could even join much less become leader of
in Balder's Gate, and you could only hit, what, level 6 or 7 in the
game?

Are you thinking of one of the addons or sequels perhaps?

Xocyll
--
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr

[Xocyll]

Zaghadka <zagh...@hotmail.com> looked up from reading the entrails of
the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:

>On Sun, 28 Apr 2013 18:16:23 -0500, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,

>Bhaalspawn powers anyone? You are the child of gur Tbq bs Zheqre, ffs.
>And yes, it only gets worse by the time you get out to Throne of Bhaal.

I don't think I ever completely finished BG1 - petered out around 90% of
the way through and I had no such powers.

_Finishing_ a game with some extra power is one thing, getting handed
super powers at the start or early on for doing nothing is something
else entirely.

Yeah sometimes the protagonist is the bastard child of something
powerful and thus has some extra power (or as in the Unnamed in
Planescape Torment couldn't die permanently.)

That's heritage or backstory and while that might make the character a
bit of a Mary Sue, it's still quite different from having accolades and
titles and such just _given_ to you during the game in circumstances
that would never occur outside of a teenager's fantasy.

Especially in a medieval world, Rank was incredibly important - no way
would an apprentice get elevated to Guild Master, not in a friggen
Billion years. The system and membership would never allow it.

>That game was incredibly Monty Haul. Especially compared to something
>like Bard's Tale, where you literally go through first level characters
>in droves until what survives is your party, and no one character is
>vitally important to the game.

I've played a few games that killed off party member's like mad - the
one I remember most was Tunnels n Trolls (tile based top down.)

The thing is, you can't have _any_ kind of character story in a game
like that or character development - the party members are just
disposable assets (just as the soldiers in X-Com.)

That's why they went out of favor, that and everything going to a first
person perspective.

It was also a time when the computer didn't have the resources to do
anything more, not really.

As the hardware developed so did the story dialog and character
development.

I'd liken it to physics in games - we couldn't do it before and nobody
missed it. We can now and any game that doesn't do it looks odd and
incomplete.

There is no real story in Skyrim and certainly no character development
no matter what you are.

You're born special as the Dragon born and then you're just given
everything whether you deserve it or not.

The rewards are totally unrealistic and violate not only logic, but
basic human nature (I'm lumping the elves and orcs in with humans here
since they behave similarly.)

Thank you for saving the college, here, you're arch mage now
Thanks for discovering the traitor, here, your head of the thieves guild
now.

"Thank you for stopping that purse snatcher and getting my purse
containing $50 back, here, have this $150,000 diamond necklace heirloom
(that has been in my family for 327 years) as a reward.

Thank you mail-room guy who by accident discovered an embezzler, you're
the CEO now.

>We've been on a long backwards slide for a while is all I'm saying. I
>don't know why you're particularly noticing it in Skyrim, unless it's in
>comparison to the other Elder Scrolls games.

It is in comparison to the other Elder Scrolls games - you had to earn
shit before, you had to be qualified for the role before you could have
it.
In Skyrim an illiterate stinking barbarian who can cast 4 spells can
become the Arch-Mage. The friggen embodiment of magic knowledge in that
Province (Country) [It's a "Province" of the Empire but since it has
it's own race it's really a Country in actuality.)

"Come study at the College of Winterhold, Skyrim's top magic academy.
Don't worry, we managed to train the Arch-Mage not to shit in the
courtyard anymore and think we might get him to use cutlery sometime
this decade."

Not really a selling point if the top guy knows 4 spells at novice level
is it? Would you pay to go to a college run by someone totally
unqualified, who knows the same amount or less than the average
freshman?
Who'd hire someone who graduated from such a college?

Sure you could be a prodigy and learn everything they have to teach in
an absurdly short period of time and _then_ become elevated to Arch Mage
status because you're actually better at magic and more knowledgeable
than the current AM or professors.
That makes some sense and can be justified, since you have "earned" it.

>>I don't recall any guilds you could even join much less become leader of
>>in Balder's Gate, and you could only hit, what, level 6 or 7 in the
>>game?
>>
>>Are you thinking of one of the addons or sequels perhaps?
>>

>In Baldur's Gate II, you could become leader of the Thieves' guild (for
>example), but you had to be an actual thief. I wasn't particularly
>pointing to the specific reward, but to the fact that you had all sorts
>of undeserved power and accolades thrown at you from day one in BG,
>because of the "center of the universe" trend in RPGs, which pretty much
>(AFAIK) started with Baldur's Gate.
>
>In contrast, consider the lowly Vault Dweller in Fallout, who was no one
>in particular, a small player in a much larger world, and told to hit the
>road when he was done.

I never actually played Fallout. I tried but it was such a buggy piece
of shit I gave up shortly after getting to the first town.
I've never seen such a crash happy game, before or since.

>That's a contemporary of BG. It's possibly to do RPG well in this regard.
>Baldur's had many other things going right for it, of course. I still
>enjoyed it. Such Monty Haul aspects may be more unforgivable and jarring
>in a Bethesda game, where being the center of the universe was never a
>prerequisite to the gameplay before.

But the lowly vault dweller is still the lowly vault dweller in Fallout
3 and FO3:New Vegas, also by Bethesda.
They used to do it right.

Skyrim they just seemed to have phoned in - like they started as usual
and then got bored and couldn't be bothered doing logic checks or
writing a story that wouldn't get failed by a grade 5 creative writing
teacher for being too childish.

It all just screams "We wrote the code and let the teenage interns write
the story and dialog and we didn't check their work because we don't
care anymore."

It's like they made this game for the people who reply to any "this make
no sense" comment with "It's just a game."


In other news, finished the Dark Brotherhood main quest and now have the
"random" kill missions being given to me.
Another half done routine.
So far I've had 2 people have me kill the Big Laborer at Katla's Farm.

Had the same Unemployed Laborer hire me to kill a Traveling Dignitary in
Solitude. and someone else (at 1200 gold each time - where does an
Unemployed Laborer get 2400 gold?)
That's 3 Traveling Dignitaries in Solitude so far.

Worst of all, you don't even have to identify yourself to the people who
want to buy a hit, you just walk up and they just assume you're from the
guild and give you a target and hand you money - no actual conversation
required from you.
As I remember it, hiring a murder is illegal in Tamriel, so it make no
sense they'd do this - one of them even did it with a guard standing not
5 feet away.
It's not like they whisper either.

Shoddy, shoddy work.

I hereby dub this game Shoddyrim.

[Xocyll]

Zaghadka <zagh...@hotmail.com> looked up from reading the entrails of
the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:

>On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 11:06:38 -0500, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,

>Xocyll wrote:
>
>>Zaghadka <zagh...@hotmail.com> looked up from reading the entrails of
>>the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:
>>
>>>On Sun, 28 Apr 2013 18:16:23 -0500, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,
>>>Xocyll wrote:
>>>
>>>>Zaghadka <zagh...@hotmail.com> looked up from reading the entrails of
>>>>the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:
>>>>
>

>[snip]

>
>>>In Baldur's Gate II, you could become leader of the Thieves' guild (for
>>>example), but you had to be an actual thief. I wasn't particularly
>>>pointing to the specific reward, but to the fact that you had all sorts
>>>of undeserved power and accolades thrown at you from day one in BG,
>>>because of the "center of the universe" trend in RPGs, which pretty much
>>>(AFAIK) started with Baldur's Gate.
>>>
>>>In contrast, consider the lowly Vault Dweller in Fallout, who was no one
>>>in particular, a small player in a much larger world, and told to hit the
>>>road when he was done.
>>
>>I never actually played Fallout. I tried but it was such a buggy piece
>>of shit I gave up shortly after getting to the first town.
>>I've never seen such a crash happy game, before or since.
>>

>Sounds like you had something odd in your config. It was never buggy when
>I played it (though there are some unfinished bits, quest hooks with no
>follow through, etc). Fallout 2 OTOH was buggy as shit, unpatched, but
>the original Fallout was fine.

Might have been FO2 I played - I've never encountered such a buggy game
before or since, and it was the default config, then later whatever
tweaks I could find reference to, to make it less crash happy - didn't
work really.

>You might try out the GOG version, if you can stand really retro
>graphics. It has one of the nicest tactical turn-based combat systems in
>CRPG, for my money.

I'm not really into it that much anymore, and my eyes don't like low res
graphics anymore, or I'd be installing dosbox and playing Daggerfall.

>>>That's a contemporary of BG. It's possibly to do RPG well in this regard.
>>>Baldur's had many other things going right for it, of course. I still
>>>enjoyed it. Such Monty Haul aspects may be more unforgivable and jarring
>>>in a Bethesda game, where being the center of the universe was never a
>>>prerequisite to the gameplay before.
>>
>>But the lowly vault dweller is still the lowly vault dweller in Fallout
>>3 and FO3:New Vegas, also by Bethesda.
>>They used to do it right.
>>
>

>Yup. I see where this is going.

>
>>Skyrim they just seemed to have phoned in - like they started as usual
>>and then got bored and couldn't be bothered doing logic checks or
>>writing a story that wouldn't get failed by a grade 5 creative writing
>>teacher for being too childish.
>>
>>It all just screams "We wrote the code and let the teenage interns write
>>the story and dialog and we didn't check their work because we don't
>>care anymore."
>>
>

>Bethesda has never cared much about story or (non-procedural) world
>building, IMO. Remember the main quest line in Oblivion? Remember the
>same 6 voices recycled over and over again?

Not a story per se, but they did care about creating a _world_ for you
to play in. Their stories have never been great shakes, but they were
logical and consistent. They paid attention to how every little detail
fit together into the world.
It's kind of like a jigsaw puzzle, everything has it's proper place and
fits exactly in that place.

Skyrim by comparison feels like someone took that same jigsaw puzzle and
just glued pieces down willy nilly not caring if they were even close to
being right, or even from the right puzzle.

>I'd just as soon play RAGE as Skyrim, for all Bethesda's games have felt
>like actual RPGs in the past few years. If it's a solo character game,
>the shooters are starting to overtake the RPGs, IMO.

Yeah they are starting to get quite involved now, which is both good and
bad - the involved stories are too often straightjackets that leave you
with little real choice in things, you're told what to do wand where to
go.

>>It's like they made this game for the people who reply to any "this make
>>no sense" comment with "It's just a game."
>>
>

>A lot of that in Oblivion, too. I remember running all around Tamriel in
>Dark Brotherhoood assassin wear and nobody calling the cops. It was the
>equivalent of walking around wearing a balaklava and a visible bomb vest
>in NYC, but nobody paid me no mind. ;^)

Not the best example really, more like walking around in a hoodie with a
gun showing in New York City.
Except, that the world you are playing in is one in which _everyone_
carries a weapon - it's more like the wild west and nobody really looked
twice at you for _carrying_ a gun or dressing like a gunfighter as long
as you didn't do anything out of line.

>>In other news, finished the Dark Brotherhood main quest and now have the
>>"random" kill missions being given to me.
>>Another half done routine.
>>So far I've had 2 people have me kill the Big Laborer at Katla's Farm.
>>
>>Had the same Unemployed Laborer hire me to kill a Traveling Dignitary in
>>Solitude. and someone else (at 1200 gold each time - where does an
>>Unemployed Laborer get 2400 gold?)
>>That's 3 Traveling Dignitaries in Solitude so far.
>>
>>Worst of all, you don't even have to identify yourself to the people who
>>want to buy a hit, you just walk up and they just assume you're from the
>>guild and give you a target and hand you money - no actual conversation
>>required from you.
>>As I remember it, hiring a murder is illegal in Tamriel, so it make no
>>sense they'd do this - one of them even did it with a guard standing not
>>5 feet away.
>>It's not like they whisper either.
>>
>>Shoddy, shoddy work.
>>
>>I hereby dub this game Shoddyrim.
>>
>

>Ah yes. Compared to other Bethesda titles, this sounds like a powerful
>disturbance in the Force, but nothing off the dark path they have taken.
>I was pointing out that there has been a lot of this sort of thing for
>quite a while in CRPG. Sounds like I'll happily avoid Skyrim, as this is
>just the sort of immersion in the shitter design that bugs the crap out
>of me, too.

Yeah there's just so many immersion breakers it's really jarring.

Obviously these don't matter a bit to the "It's just a game" set as long
as they get lots of free stuff, but having played the older games where
they did it right, it REALLY bugs me.

>I just fired up Dragon Age: Origins, anyhow. Backlogs. ;^)

Never played it.

>Another example comes to mind: "Ah fuck it, you're a Spectre now." Good
>old Mass Effect. Never finished that one. Never understood why it was so
>important that I play the game as an ultra-powerful operative, other than
>the munchkin effect. So I called it Munchkin Effect, and happily didn't
>bother with the other two.

Munchkin isn't necessarily bad if you're having fun with it.
It's one of the things that bugs me in Skyrim about magic - no custom
spells and the top level spells are all basically useless - take too
long to cast, are interruptible and don't do that much damage - they're
the opposite of what top level damage spells should be.

>To contrast, how about Arx Fatalis? I'm working on it with the Arx
>Libertatis engine now (not buggy). There, lbh'er n sernxvat ningne bs gur
>tbqf and *nothing* is handed to you. Not even a map. LOL.

I played that back when it was new. It was quite buggy and it too had
things that made no sense - like a levitate spell that can't go up or
down, so you can levitate across a gap, but your feet are 1 inch blow
the edge, so you can't _ever_ get on there. Can't lift your feet, or
lean forward and turn off the spell or anything, just turn around and go
back where you started. Completely against pretty much every levitate
spell effect in every book, movie, comic or game ever made.


Had a new Skyrim bug today.
Newly revamped (my game glitched and I couldn't feed anymore and had to
disable the mod and do some other stuff to get cured and reinfected) I
was headed across country on a retrieve treasure mission when I ran into
a dragon fighting a giant.
It flew over me and I sucked it's soul out before it was dead, then it
did it's disintegrate effect and continued flying around and attacking
as a dragon skeleton.

Dragons are another thing that bugs me as implemented.
There's this shout, Dragonrend that supposedly forces them to land, but
all to often you hit them with it while they're already landed and they
take off and fly away.
Today I surprise attacked a dragon so I got the 3x damage and one
shotted it.
Then it took off and flew a big circle around, then crashed on a
mountainside.

It's like they did a "Dragon has been attacked" script that has certain
actions set to go off, but they never bothered checking to see if the
Dragon _survived_ the initial attack and would still be able to do those
actions.

Actually I'm pretty sure they haven't put any conditional checks
anywhere in the game where it might benefit players.

But by God you can't fast travel because enemies are nearby, even if
those enemies are FISH in the ocean nearby which cannot attack you
unless you go in the water.
That check they made sure to put in, but again without the one check
that would benefit the player.

If it wasn't for mods it would be totally unplayable.


Oh one last tidbit: doing the dark Brotherhood arc you get a horse
called Shadowmere which is apparently immortal and heals extremely fast
so that if it's not killed instantly it'll heal up in a second to full
health.
It follows you around and will initiate combat with anything it
determines is an enemy. In doing so, since it's your ally, it puts you
in combat and breaks your stealth so you lose sneak attack bonuses.
You can't tell it to stay home, sell it or otherwise get rid of it.

The only way to get the damn thing to fuck off is to kill it, usually by
blowing it off a mountain top so it falls to it's death. Even then I
guess it'll resurrect in a few days and be waiting where it died to
start following you again.

I've also read reports on the web that it also counts as a witness when
you commit a crime. Yes that's right, your own horse reports you.

Shoddyrim indeed.