Wizardry 7: party composition ideas
Darin Johnson
I want to import players from Bane of the Cosmic Forge to Wizardry
Gold. But I was wondering about replacing one or two of the party
with new players (is that even allowed if I import?). Basically, the
most annoying fact now is that I find tons of special weapons and lots
of armor, but only a single player is allowed to use them, as they are
for lord/valkyrie/fighter only. So I was thinking of adding a
Valkyrie perhaps to go along with the Lord, but then I'd have to shove
either hte Samurai or Ninja in the back of the party, despite both
being better fighters than the Lord...
Any ideas here? Or is Wizardry 7 better at letter the alternate
classes have good armor/weapons (unlike BotCF where the Samurai waits
until the game is almost over before getting useful stuff).
--
Darin Johnson
da...@connectnet.com
Maher Saleh
I don't think you can add new characters if you import. I wouldn't bother
with the Valkyrie in any case. I have a Lord, Samurai, and Ninja up front
with a Monk, Bard and Bishop in behind. You have to be patient with this
combination since they are slow in gaining levels, but if you import, you
start at level five and can bring one special weapon for each player. I
managed to transfer The Avenger, a Muramasa Blade, Busido Blade, Rod of
Sprites (MUCH more powerful in Crusaders), Cat 'o Nine Tails and a Holy
Basher. Good weapons are crucial, since there is lots of hack and slash.
Dark Savant is a VERY extensive scenario, so picking elite charactes for
the long haul is your best strategy.
Good luck and order the clue book now - you'll need it!
Maher
--
__o Maher Saleh
_\<, ap...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA
|/'(*) Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
..,(*),../""""
Darin Johnson
>I don't think you can add new characters if you import.
Hmm, I noticed this. I was thinking of going back to bane, dropping
the character, adding a new one, *then* importing. Ah well.
I also noticed my stats were drastically reduced. Not a single 18
anywhere. Sigh.
But basically person 4 isn't going to be fighting much, so I don't
want a fighter there. A bard is suggested by many, but I don't really
like that idea much (too dorky). I'd like to have a bishop maybe,
or psionicist, or monk (hmm, a monk could strike from position 4
with a staff, might work out).
>combination since they are slow in gaining levels, but if you import, you
>start at level five and can bring one special weapon for each player. I
>managed to transfer The Avenger, a Muramasa Blade, Busido Blade, Rod of
>Sprites (MUCH more powerful in Crusaders), Cat 'o Nine Tails and a Holy
>Basher.
Hmm, I noticed my samurai (when I tested importing) didn't have his
Muramasa blade. I'll have to retry this. Maybe if I spread some of
the good weapons to other players that don't fight, I'll have them to
sell off at least :-)
>Good luck and order the clue book now - you'll need it!
But the net is free, and has less temptation to peek :-)
--
Darin Johnson
da...@connectnet.com
Michael Huemer
>Darin Johnson (da...@connectnet1.connectnet.com) writes:
>> Any ideas here? Or is Wizardry 7 better at letter the alternate
>> classes have good armor/weapons (unlike BotCF where the Samurai waits
>> until the game is almost over before getting useful stuff).
It takes a real long time before you can get extra stuff for your
samurai or ninja. (Except I think you get a naginata or some similar
pole arm in the Gorn castle, near the beginning.)
Btw, I concluded at some point that hand/feet was actually the best
weapon, if you were trained in it. I don't know why I concluded that,
so I can't be sure I had good evidence.
--
^-----^
Michael Huemer <o...@rci.rutgers.edu> / O O \
http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~owl | V |
\ /
Darin Johnson
>Similarly, instead
>of having a Mage just sit there all game, have them switch to Bishop
>(say when they hit level 7), and then back to Mage again when they
>become a level 7 Bishop. You wind up with a level 7 mage instead
>of a level 9 mage, but one with _lots_ more spells and points.
A lot of hints suggest changing professions. But I just don't see it.
Of course, I dont' know how the stats work and what the formulas are,
but I do know that higher stats count for a *lot*. My mage can almost
always go first in combat (having 19/18 in dex/spd in bane), and
having all those stats lost just to get more skill points or spells
seems like a loss overall. So I end up with a party with a ton of skills,
but few stats above 14 or 15.
Besides, this is *role*playing*, mini-maxing should have no place in RPG's.
And besides the munchkin aspect, it's patently unrealistic to suddenly
lose intelligence and have your muscles shrivel up just because you
change majors in college (well, very little in class based systems is
realistic, but this is even worse than normal).
Of course, in it's defense, it's a way to keep things from becoming
unbalanced. Ie, if you kept all your stats, then quickly went up
levels, your stats would skyrocket. However, this is *not* the only
solution to balancing!
>Lords aren't worth the wait - I'd put the Monk up front (they're
>killing machines! why put them in the back?).
Hmm, I've got a lord instead of valkyrie. I thought they were essentially
the same - fighters with priest spells. What wait are you talking about?
And the Lord does just fine - gets to use any magic weapons or armor, does
respectable damage, and so forth. is the Valkyrie that much better?
>Once your character gets good enough at Bard, and you find firearms,
>switch the Bard to Ranger - Bards can't shoot firearms, and the Ranger
>can still use the lute (skill just won't increase).
Ack. I converted my ranger to bard before importing. That was a damn
fine ranger I gutted (though mostly useless).
So I've got
Samurai - with Muramasa Blade, killing machine.
Lord - basic equipment
Ninja - unequipped weapons so he's slowly getting better at hand to hand.
Bard - yawn
Priest - was great, now has few spells after importing though
Mage - fast
===
Also, I restarted again, this time using a different save game to
import. Originally, I used the save game where I found the spaceship
and entered it. Ack - you start off Crusaders near Nyctalinth and the
battles are tough, and no where to get equipment. I went up levels
fast, but I most characters were close to naked. No easy way to get
to New City or the start dungeon I heard about; because roads are
blocked by impossible combat situations. I was ready to throw the
game away. Restarting and ending up near New City, even though I had
slightly less stats and equipment, is much much more enjoyable now.
--
Darin Johnson
da...@connectnet.com
Ken Fishkin
Maher Saleh wrote:
>
> I don't think you can add new characters if you import. I wouldn't bother
> with the Valkyrie in any case. I have a Lord, Samurai, and Ninja up front
boy, I have a _really_ different take on this.
Valkyries are excellent, as they learn Priest spells. I have
a Priest and Valkyrie "paired" - when the Priest gets good enough
to switch to Valkyrie, s/he does so, and the Valkyrie switches
back to Priest. I've done this 'double flip' 3-4 times, and i
wind up with Priest/Valkyries who know virtually every spell, and
more importantly have _hundreds_ of spell points. Similarly, instead
of having a Mage just sit there all game, have them switch to Bishop
(say when they hit level 7), and then back to Mage again when they
become a level 7 Bishop. You wind up with a level 7 mage instead
of a level 9 mage, but one with _lots_ more spells and points.
Lords aren't worth the wait - I'd put the Monk up front (they're
killing machines! why put them in the back?).
Once your character gets good enough at Bard, and you find firearms,
switch the Bard to Ranger - Bards can't shoot firearms, and the Ranger
can still use the lute (skill just won't increase).
My preferred lineup is, where '-->' means 'switch character class to'
1) Fighter --> Monk or Ninja
2) Bard --> Samurai
3) Valkyrie --> Priest --> Valkyrie --> Priest .....
4) Priest --> Valkyrie --> Priest --> Valkyrie .....
5) <whatever> --> Bard --> Ranger
6) mage --> bishop --> mage
--
Ken Fishkin fis...@acm.org
http://www.parc.xerox.com/fishkin
Michael Huemer
da...@connectnet1.connectnet.com (Darin Johnson) writes:
>A lot of hints suggest changing professions. But I just don't see it.
>Of course, I dont' know how the stats work and what the formulas are,
>but I do know that higher stats count for a *lot*. My mage can almost
>always go first in combat (having 19/18 in dex/spd in bane), and
>having all those stats lost just to get more skill points or spells
>seems like a loss overall. So I end up with a party with a ton of skills,
>but few stats above 14 or 15.
Evidently, you don't appreciate the full advantage of constant class
switching. The huge advantages start to show up later in the game --
i.e., when you have six characters who all have most of the existing
spells and all have enough spell points to cast multiple 7th level
nuclear blasts and healing spells (the most useful spells). If you
stay in one class, you never get very many spell points, and a bunch
of spells you will never get. Also consider the advantage of maxing
out most of the skills -- e.g., 100 in weapon skill, 100 in ninjutsu
(this, by the way, also leads to a clever fighting strategy that feels
like cheating but isn't: all characters hide in shadows and then cast
spells. While hidden, they are completely immune to attack.)
The effect is so enormous because of the way experience needed to gain
levels increases *exponentially* -- in other words, as your level gets
higher, you get *hugely* greater requirements on gaining additional
levels (e.g., gaining 1 level typically takes as many exp points as
gaining all the previous levels, combined).
>Besides, this is *role*playing*, mini-maxing should have no place in RPG's.
>And besides the munchkin aspect, it's patently unrealistic to suddenly
>lose intelligence and have your muscles shrivel up just because you
>change majors in college (well, very little in class based systems is
>realistic, but this is even worse than normal).
I agree that's pretty silly.
What should they do instead?
Lynn Johannesen
Darin Johnson (da...@connectnet1.connectnet.com) wrote:
: A lot of hints suggest changing professions. But I just don't see it.
: Of course, I dont' know how the stats work and what the formulas are,
: but I do know that higher stats count for a *lot*. My mage can almost
: always go first in combat (having 19/18 in dex/spd in bane), and
: having all those stats lost just to get more skill points or spells
: seems like a loss overall. So I end up with a party with a ton of skills,
: but few stats above 14 or 15.
The stats go back up as you change levels, fairly quickly. You don't
need to be in a hurry to change professions early in the game; later
on you'll routinely go up 4 or 5 levels the first combat after you swap.
(Do try to develop a character with 90+ Thaumaturgy early though;
life gets much easier when you can cast Nuclear Blast.)
Changing a lot really does work better. I've tried it both ways,
and while the game can be won either way, it was much easier when I
was changing professions a lot. There were a couple of (optional)
battles I could never win with my unchanging party.
: Besides, this is *role*playing*, mini-maxing should have no place in RPG's.
: And besides the munchkin aspect, it's patently unrealistic to suddenly
: lose intelligence and have your muscles shrivel up just because you
: change majors in college (well, very little in class based systems is
: realistic, but this is even worse than normal).
Of course it's "unrealistic". Computer games are unrealistic. People
primarily interested in reality don't play them. Anyway, if this
particular form of unreality bothers you more than all the rest, then
go ahead and play your same party all the way through. I'll bet you
can't beat the Beast of 1000 Eyes with it though.
Darin Johnson
>(Do try to develop a character with 90+ Thaumaturgy early though;
>life gets much easier when you can cast Nuclear Blast.)
That was easy to do in Wizardry 6, at level 10, no class changes.
>There were a couple of (optional)
>battles I could never win with my unchanging party.
And there were battles I would never have won if I were unable to
attack first. And I attacked first because of stats of 18 in speed
and dex.
So what do you do when you have a nicely balanced party, and you feel
it's time for a character to get a lobotomy? Suddenly no magic user?
What if you convert your samurai, and he never gets stats high enough
to switch back? And why even bother spending time getting bonus
points when creating characters, if you're just going to toss them all
away later? Isn't that an inherent conflict in all the hints, on one
hand, it says to spend time and only accept a character with 18 or
more bonus points, and then a few lines later is suggests dumping them
all?
What's better, a fighter with 18 strength and dex with 70 in swords,
or a figher with 100 in swords and only 13 in those stats? If I want
a super party, I can use a savegame editor. But I find that boring.
If the game doesn't work as well when you role play instead of roll
play, then the game is unbalanced.
>Of course it's "unrealistic". Computer games are unrealistic.
But RPG's are NOT necessarily unrealistic. An RPG is not about stats
and points and combat, but that's what 99% of CRPG's are about.
--
Darin Johnson
da...@connectnet.com
Billy D. Cruise
Lynn Johannesen wrote:
>
> Darin Johnson (da...@connectnet1.connectnet.com) wrote:
>
> : Besides, this is *role*playing*, mini-maxing should have no place in RPG's.
> : And besides the munchkin aspect, it's patently unrealistic to suddenly
> : lose intelligence and have your muscles shrivel up just because you
> : change majors in college (well, very little in class based systems is
> : realistic, but this is even worse than normal).
>
> Of course it's "unrealistic". Computer games are unrealistic. People
> primarily interested in reality don't play them. Anyway, if this
> particular form of unreality bothers you more than all the rest, then
> go ahead and play your same party all the way through. I'll bet you
> can't beat the Beast of 1000 Eyes with it though.
I'll have to agree with Darin here. I have played Wiz7 about
five times now, all the way through to the end each time, and I
never change classes, except to have my Priest become a Monk very
late in the game to take advantage of critical-strike. Even this
is a tough decision, as a high level Priest class character is very
adept (no pun intended :-)) and effective using the poisoning effects
of the Coil of the Serpent in one hand, and the stoning attack of
Ymmu's Paw in the other. Changing classes repeatedly, while I believe
anyone will acknowldege is the best way to obtain super characters,
destroys any feeling of "role-playing" inherent in the game system
for me, as I wind up walking around with six cookie-cutter clones,
each carbon copies of the other as they have mastered all
proficiencies.
In addition, my non-changing party always kills all of the
Gorrors foes, including the Fiend and Beast. I might have to take
some extra precautions (such as having plenty of invisibility potions,
damaging cloud dusts and potions, spells to summon monster groups for
help and superman spells/potions {and a faerie ninja with the Cane of
Corpus doesn't hurt either! :-)}), and get lucky with the combat
initiative rolls (if the Beast starts flinging those Dazzling Lights
spells before everyone is invisible, I've got a party suitable for
nothing more than garden adornment), but if these things fall into place
killing the Beast is nothing more than perseverence (and effectively
timing when to jump out of hiding to strike). Granted, this isn't the
easiest way to play the game, but having distinct characters among my
six so that each is different, from my strong Lord to the weak but
intelligent mage, is the way that I have approached Wizardry since
first booting up Wiz1 on the Apple back in '83, and is the most
enjoyable for me, as I can better indentify and role-play (in the
limited fashion that the computer allows) my party due to it's
differences. To each his/her own, I suppose... :-)
--
_
Billy \ \ Ban...@worldnet.att.net
Cruise \0\
USPTR \o\ ________________________________________________
_ |0| \
(_)//////////|0|=================================================|
|0|________________________________________________/
Vermithrax /o/
Dragon /0/ ...playing with the pencils on the group W bench.
=UDIC= /_/ --Arlo Guthrie
Tim Bergmann
I still don't see the point of having a mage. The bard is one of the
most effective classes in the game. Unlimited spells is so incredibly
valuable how can anyone not want or need a bard, especially for about
90% of the game.
My party had all special class characters, the only switch i made was to
change my bishop to a valkyrie late in the game to take advantage of the
Maenads Lance
The three up front characters
Lord: Ebony armor and the Avenger, takes almost no damage and dishes
it out with the best of them
Samurai Never ever leave home without one esp if you have the muramasa
blade
Ninja Constantly reducing armor class, bare hands that kill on pace
that almost matches the samurai
back row
monk: gotta be an elf because of the elven bow, and with a few dozen
Peacemakers, he's a stud and when he runs out hide and hit with bare
hands, also constantly reduced AC
Bard: Gotta love her, for reasons as stated above about unlimited
spells, unlimited sleep spells work for a very long time in the game, as
does the Horn of Prometheus. And there level up time is not much
different than a standard mage
Bishop: The toughest call of the game, after awhile she becomes
invaluable, because if you need healing done or damage done then call on
her, she can where decent armor. I changed her to a valykrie later.
If you do have a valkyrie with the above party, every character can have
an extremely effective physical attact and all but the samurai and the
bard can heal.
One added note about others who love to change classes, it may seem that
going up levels go up exponentially however that is just not the case at
about the 10th level (if I remember right) it levels off and you still
go up levels pretty frequently, at least it was fast enough for me.
Fight enough dragons or megabots in one siting and you will go up pretty
rapidly.
tim bergmann
ad...@earthlink.net
john.may
I agree with the character swapping idea. I am near the end of the game.
My party is...
1. Dwarf Valkyrie with Excaliber
2. Felper Samurai with *Light Sword* and pandoras wand
3. Faerie Ninja with Cane corpus and Ymuus Paw
4. Faerie Monk. with Z..... Bo.
5. Dracon Valkyrie with Cat a Nine tails
6. Dracon Psionic with Cat a Nine tails.
My two faeries have -22 ac!!!! and have killed Fiend of nine worlds!
All chars know just about ALL spells and are average level 28.
These guys finished Bane of the comsic forge and gave Draco and Rebecca
a thrashing they will never forget :)
Wiz 6 and 7 or two of the best games EVER. I bet 8 is CRAP based on
sir-techs recent releases.... oh well never mind :)
John May.
Ken Fishkin
Darin Johnson wrote:
> A lot of hints suggest changing professions. But I just don't see it.
> Of course, I dont' know how the stats work and what the formulas are,
> but I do know that higher stats count for a *lot*. My mage can almost
> always go first in combat (having 19/18 in dex/spd in bane), and
> having all those stats lost just to get more skill points or spells
> seems like a loss overall.
Yup, here's the tradeoff:
SWITCH A LOT: more spell points, more skill points, more hit points.
DON'T: higher stats, so you go earlier, and fight better.
I tend to have rear-echelon guys switch like crazy, and fighters
not switch. Who cares if your Wizard has 18 dex, if he's only got
20 spell points?
Ken Fishkin
Darin Johnson wrote:
> And there were battles I would never have won if I were unable to
> attack first. And I attacked first because of stats of 18 in speed
> and dex.
>
> So what do you do when you have a nicely balanced party, and you feel
> it's time for a character to get a lobotomy? Suddenly no magic user?
pair 'em up. For example, pair a magic user with a Samurai, and
have 'em flip in tandem. This works especially well once you develop
spells which work just fine when cast at 1 or 2 power (Crush,
Death Wish, Nuclear Storm, etc.): your just-flipped guy can still
cast them, and he'll have a lot more spell points to cast them with.
Ken Fishkin
Tim Bergmann wrote:
>
> I still don't see the point of having a mage. The bard is one of the
> most effective classes in the game. Unlimited spells is so incredibly
> valuable how can anyone not want or need a bard, especially for about
> 90% of the game.
you only need to _start_ with a bard, in order to get the lute.
Practically anyone can play the instrument - sure, their music
skill won't go up from playing, but that's rarely a problem if
you pump attribute points into it. Mages, on the other hand,
have FAR superior spell-casting ability.
> Lord: Ebony armor and the Avenger, takes almost no damage and dishes
> it out with the best of them
Valkyries are a heck of a lot easier to roll up than a Lord, and
are nearly as good.
> back row
>
> monk: gotta be an elf because of the elven bow, and with a few dozen
> Peacemakers, he's a stud and when he runs out hide and hit with bare
> hands, also constantly reduced AC
it makes no sense to put a monk in the back row. just like ninjas,
they're killing machines with their bare hands. my monk has killed,
by far, more monsters than anyone else in the party.
Darin Johnson
>Valkyries are a heck of a lot easier to roll up than a Lord, and
>are nearly as good.
And that's a useless fact unless you're rolling a new character. My
lord is an imported charcter from bane, it's a bit impractical to make
him a Valkyrie - the tech level isnt' that high yet :-)
--
Darin Johnson
da...@connectnet.com
Frederick Toshio Toida
Well I've been messing around with Wizardry 7 for a while,
experimenting with different parties and such. I've found a few
things that might be worth sharing. First off, I'm not sure a
pure Priest is really necessary to start off with. I made a
Bishop and put all my points in theology, and I'm doing just
fine. Next game I think I'm going to try putting all my points
in Thaumaturgy and see how that works out.
Second, has anyone else noticed that Bard hit points are
ridiculously low? Even with a decent Vitality, they seem to
gain hps about as quickly (slowly?) as a mage. It seems to me
the "jack of all trades" should at least have average hps,
maybe about as much as a thief.
Another note - the affects of Piety on mana gain are huge. If
you start with an 18 Piety, a mage or an alchemist will start
with 4 pts for energy blast/chill touch/acid blast/poison. The
difference may not seem like much at first, but it seems like
mana gain per level is affected by how much mana you already
have. Has anyone else noticed this, or am I crazy?
Finally, I hate resting. I'm trying to make a party that is
completely self-sufficient so that I don't have to rest at all.
I've got elves and gnomes as spellcasters so their mana
regenerates quickly, and I've got stamina spells to keep my
fighters awake. Anyone know if it's possible to get through the
game without resting? Without the editor, of course...
Well that's all I've got for now. Oh, one last note - the
duration for spells like armorplate and enchanted weapon seems
to be cumulative. I like to stand at a fountain and cast them
over and over so I can forget about them.
tosh.
Lord Dracon
begin 644 Wizgold.zip
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end
Michael Huemer
da...@connectnet1.connectnet.com (Darin Johnson) writes:
>So what do you do when you have a nicely balanced party, and you feel
>it's time for a character to get a lobotomy? Suddenly no magic user?
Well, you have multiple characters with mage skills. For instance,
you can have a bunch of characters switch between mage and priest
classes, thereby getting large numbers of each kind of spell.
>What if you convert your samurai, and he never gets stats high enough
>to switch back? And why even bother spending time getting bonus
Well, then you switch to something intermediate. For instance, say
you switched the samurai to a priest. You've gone up 8 levels and
still aren't able to switch back to a samurai again. But you might be
able to switch to a ranger. Then, from there, there's a better chance
you'll be able to switch to samurai. Alternately, just keep waiting.
Eventually all your abilities will go up.
>points when creating characters, if you're just going to toss them all
>away later? Isn't that an inherent conflict in all the hints, on one
I agree, it's not that important to start out with high bonus points.
However, there are some classes that it's hard to ever get to. For
instance, if you're switching classes frequently, you might get a lot
of mage & priest spells (since they're easy to qualify for), but never
get any psionic spells. Thus, it might be wise to *start out* as a
psionic. That's why you might need a lot of bonus points. Even
better, it might be wise to start out as a monk, so that while you're
getting all these skill point increases later on, you'll be able to
add them to "hand & feet" and kirijutsu skill.
>What's better, a fighter with 18 strength and dex with 70 in swords,
>or a figher with 100 in swords and only 13 in those stats? If I want
>a super party, I can use a savegame editor. But I find that boring.
The former is probably better. But consider this: What's better: a
fighter with 18 strength & dex, 70 in swords, and that's all he can
do; or a fighter who only has 13 in those stats but also has 100
spell points in each area and has a few nice spells like nuke blast or
asphyxiation? The spells are much more damaging later in the game
than mere swords.
>If the game doesn't work as well when you role play instead of roll
>play, then the game is unbalanced.
>
>>Of course it's "unrealistic". Computer games are unrealistic.
>
>But RPG's are NOT necessarily unrealistic. An RPG is not about stats
>and points and combat, but that's what 99% of CRPG's are about.
But I like stats and points and combat! It's the strategic aspect of
the game.
Michael Huemer
"john.may" <john...@ocean.co.uk> writes:
>1. Dwarf Valkyrie with Excaliber
>2. Felper Samurai with *Light Sword* and pandoras wand
>3. Faerie Ninja with Cane corpus and Ymuus Paw
>4. Faerie Monk. with Z..... Bo.
>5. Dracon Valkyrie with Cat a Nine tails
>6. Dracon Psionic with Cat a Nine tails.
One more comment on party composition: I like the idea of 6 dracons.
The breath weapon is great, especially as it takes much less time to
regenerate stamina than hit points or spell points.
>Wiz 6 and 7 or two of the best games EVER. I bet 8 is CRAP based on
>sir-techs recent releases.... oh well never mind :)
I agree with both sentiments. I hope they're not going to change
wizardry so as to make 8 worse than 7 ... but I have a sneaking
suspicion that they will.
Lord Dracon
Try this party. Rename dbs to sgm and voila a party for Gold
Michael Huemer
ft...@Virginia.EDU (Frederick Toshio Toida) writes:
>Finally, I hate resting. I'm trying to make a party that is
>completely self-sufficient so that I don't have to rest at all.
>I've got elves and gnomes as spellcasters so their mana
>regenerates quickly, and I've got stamina spells to keep my
>fighters awake. Anyone know if it's possible to get through the
>game without resting? Without the editor, of course...
I think it's possible, except in the beginning -- it's possible to
keep going without resting, provided that you have a lot of spells &
spell points; you just have to go back to a fountain periodically.
When I got to high levels, I did this, because of the following thing
that you also noticed:
>Well that's all I've got for now. Oh, one last note - the
>duration for spells like armorplate and enchanted weapon seems
>to be cumulative. I like to stand at a fountain and cast them
>over and over so I can forget about them.
Right. If you have armorplate, enchanted weapon, and magic screen, it
might be a worthwhile strategy to try casting each of them ten times
while at the fountain, and after that try to get through the next
major section without resting (because if you rest, the spells will
wear off).
However, I dont' know why you hate resting so much.
ne...@ludens.elte.hu
In article <slrn5cqt17...@connectnet1.connectnet.com>, da...@connectnet1.connectnet.com (Darin Johnson) writes:
>>Similarly, instead
>>of having a Mage just sit there all game, have them switch to Bishop
>>(say when they hit level 7), and then back to Mage again when they
>>become a level 7 Bishop. You wind up with a level 7 mage instead
>>of a level 9 mage, but one with _lots_ more spells and points.
>
ehh you don't. try to fight against a *SPOT* or a REXX with
a simple mage/priest/lord/valkyre etc and you'll
understand it. There are some skills which are a must, like
to hide in shadows, or there are spells like LIFESTEAL which
give you *much* more power. so the tactic is that you start with
any kind of characters, then change their professions around the
9th level to monks/ninjas for the hiding skill then change them
back.
> Besides, this is *role*playing*, mini-maxing should have no place in RPG's.
> And besides the munchkin aspect, it's patently unrealistic to suddenly
> lose intelligence and have your muscles shrivel up just because you
> change majors in college (well, very little in class based systems is
> realistic, but this is even worse than normal).
why is this mini-maxing? its not a cheat, its a legal feature
in the game.
> Of course, in it's defense, it's a way to keep things from becoming
> unbalanced. Ie, if you kept all your stats, then quickly went up
> levels, your stats would skyrocket. However, this is *not* the only
> solution to balancing!
??
>>Lords aren't worth the wait - I'd put the Monk up front (they're
>>killing machines! why put them in the back?).
>
> Hmm, I've got a lord instead of valkyrie. I thought they were essentially
> the same - fighters with priest spells. What wait are you talking about?
> And the Lord does just fine - gets to use any magic weapons or armor, does
> respectable damage, and so forth. is the Valkyrie that much better?
of course not, its just the same.
>>Once your character gets good enough at Bard, and you find firearms,
>>switch the Bard to Ranger - Bards can't shoot firearms, and the Ranger
>>can still use the lute (skill just won't increase).
>
> Ack. I converted my ranger to bard before importing. That was a damn
> fine ranger I gutted (though mostly useless).
>
> So I've got
> Samurai - with Muramasa Blade, killing machine.
> Lord - basic equipment
> Ninja - unequipped weapons so he's slowly getting better at hand to hand.
> Bard - yawn
> Priest - was great, now has few spells after importing though
> Mage - fast
the recommended final party:
valkyrie (or lord)
monk
samurai (the first three characters with s/l weapons)
ninja (the bonus fighter)
mage
psionic (the two spellcasters, they have the best spells at
high levels (nuclear blast etc), of course both of them have
already been monks/priests/alchimists for the special
skills/spells)
this is a tested party, i went through the game with them.
the weapons/special objects you find at the final point
of the game are well suited to these characters.
> ===
>
> Also, I restarted again, this time using a different save game to
> import. Originally, I used the save game where I found the spaceship
> and entered it. Ack - you start off Crusaders near Nyctalinth and the
> battles are tough, and no where to get equipment. I went up levels
> fast, but I most characters were close to naked. No easy way to get
> to New City or the start dungeon I heard about; because roads are
> blocked by impossible combat situations. I was ready to throw the
> game away. Restarting and ending up near New City, even though I had
> slightly less stats and equipment, is much much more enjoyable now.
why restarting?
there is an orchidea field not far from the bane tower,
and if you walk in it (with low characters) you fell asleep
and you'll be teleported the place where the game begins.
and if not - you walk through the field and you are there.
> --
> Darin Johnson
> da...@connectnet.com
Medve -=( finger me...@omk.omikk.hu )=-
Darin Johnson
>Right. If you have armorplate, enchanted weapon, and magic screen, it
>might be a worthwhile strategy to try casting each of them ten times
>while at the fountain, and after that try to get through the next
>major section without resting (because if you rest, the spells will
>wear off).
Um, which fountain is this? The one in New City requires major
expenditures of gold just for healing, and it doesn't restore magic
unless you give over all your money. Or are you talking about using
the "magic word" from Munkharama repeatedly?
--
Darin Johnson
da...@connectnet.com
Darin Johnson
>why is this mini-maxing? its not a cheat, its a legal feature
>in the game.
Um, why do you think mini-maxing is a cheat? Mini-maxing as I always
defined it, is done by doing things legally. It means, getting the
most result from the least effort (as in, why study now, when I can
cram on the last day). Mini-maxing in RPG's is basically doing point
calculations to maximize your character's effectiveness. The reason I
say it's a bad idea to do in RPG's is that you spend all your time
coming up with good stats, but no time on making character conceptions
or in role playing. With minimaxing, you have a fighter change
classes repeatedly; but with role playing, it may be that your
Barbarian will never cast spells no way no how, and your priest will
run screaming if he ever gets face to face with an orc.
>> Of course, in it's defense, it's a way to keep things from becoming
>> unbalanced. Ie, if you kept all your stats, then quickly went up
>> levels, your stats would skyrocket. However, this is *not* the only
>> solution to balancing!
>
>??
That is to say, this lowering of stats is done just to keep the game
balanced. But it's not the only way to do so. An alternate method
might be to keep your stats, but they don't increase on level change
until your level matches your original level (ie, you get a stat
increase only the first time you get to a level). Another method
might be to get rid of classes altogether, or not have stat increases
except by magic, etc, etc.
>
>>>Lords aren't worth the wait - I'd put the Monk up front (they're
>>>killing machines! why put them in the back?).
>why restarting?
>there is an orchidea field not far from the bane tower,
>and if you walk in it (with low characters) you fell asleep
>and you'll be teleported the place where the game begins.
>and if not - you walk through the field and you are there.
Never saw it (what's the bane tower?). I was by Nyctalith, and going
one way I ran into Gorn guards, the other way I run into T'Rang
assasins attacking a Helazoid. Or I can go to the Rat city, but given
the difficulty of Nyctalinth, and the difficulty of mere random
encounters in the forest, that would have been even more difficult I
thought. But I restarted a week ago (too late now, nyah), and have
had fun as opposed to the earlier frustration.
--
Darin Johnson
da...@connectnet.com
Nicholas Jong
da...@connectnet1.connectnet.com (Darin Johnson) wrote:
The fountain in the small "starter dungeon" right outside New City.
--
"Any dream worth having is a dream worth fighting for."
-carved on a tombstone, somewhere
Michael Huemer
ne...@ludens.elte.hu writes:
>> And the Lord does just fine - gets to use any magic weapons or armor, does
>> respectable damage, and so forth. is the Valkyrie that much better?
>
>of course not, its just the same.
Only the VAlkyrie is easier to qualify for, and therefore better.
>the recommended final party:
>
>valkyrie (or lord)
>monk
>samurai (the first three characters with s/l weapons)
>ninja (the bonus fighter)
>mage
>psionic (the two spellcasters, they have the best spells at
>high levels (nuclear blast etc), of course both of them have
>already been monks/priests/alchimists for the special
>skills/spells)
Hm... I'm a simple man. My recommended final party would be 6 monks
and/or ninjas because of the amazing armor class (this is, of course,
after you've done enough of the class-switching to have lots of
spells, spell points, and 100 in hand/foot and ninjutsu skill).
Michael Huemer
da...@connectnet1.connectnet.com (Darin Johnson) writes:
>Um, which fountain is this? The one in New City requires major
>expenditures of gold just for healing, and it doesn't restore magic
>unless you give over all your money. Or are you talking about using
>the "magic word" from Munkharama repeatedly?
I was thinking of the fountain in the starter dungeon, or perhaps the
Gorn castle fountain when you get there.
(You DID do the starter dungeon, didn't you?)
Michael Huemer
da...@connectnet1.connectnet.com (Darin Johnson) writes:
>cram on the last day). Mini-maxing in RPG's is basically doing point
>calculations to maximize your character's effectiveness. The reason I
>say it's a bad idea to do in RPG's is that you spend all your time
>coming up with good stats, but no time on making character conceptions
>or in role playing. With minimaxing, you have a fighter change
Well, it depends on what you like in gaming. I like the
quasi-strategy-game aspect -- I like exercising good decision-making
to get the tactical advantage for my troops.
>That is to say, this lowering of stats is done just to keep the game
>balanced. But it's not the only way to do so. An alternate method
>might be to keep your stats, but they don't increase on level change
>until your level matches your original level (ie, you get a stat
>increase only the first time you get to a level). Another method
I think part of the reason was also to prevent you from changing
classes too frequently. As it is, my dracon characters have
difficulty changing classes before they reach level 8. On your
suggestion, once I got one with pretty high stats, I could switch him
back and forth between classes at will, and then the advantages of
character class switching would be even more pronounced than they
already are.
>Never saw it (what's the bane tower?). I was by Nyctalith, and going
I think he meant the Dane Tower. Anyway, the field of orchids is near
where you start out -- just explore that area thoroughly (it's before
you go into New City) and you'll find it. It's very hard to get
through it.
>one way I ran into Gorn guards, the other way I run into T'Rang
>assasins attacking a Helazoid. Or I can go to the Rat city, but given
Yeah, those assassins are pretty nasty creatures ...
Thomas Stockheim
da...@connectnet1.connectnet.com (Darin Johnson) writes:
>Never saw it (what's the bane tower?). I was by Nyctalith, and going
>one way I ran into Gorn guards, the other way I run into T'Rang
>assasins attacking a Helazoid. Or I can go to the Rat city, but given
>the difficulty of Nyctalinth, and the difficulty of mere random
>encounters in the forest, that would have been even more difficult I
>thought. But I restarted a week ago (too late now, nyah), and have
>had fun as opposed to the earlier frustration.
Go into Nyctalinth and you will be transported to new city soon ...
Thomas
Ken Fishkin
Michael Huemer wrote:
>
> Hm... I'm a simple man. My recommended final party would be 6 monks
> and/or ninjas because of the amazing armor class (this is, of course,
> after you've done enough of the class-switching to have lots of
> spells, spell points, and 100 in hand/foot and ninjutsu skill).
>
this is tempting, but
a) you miss out on a LOT of nifty specialized weapons (the blade
cuisnart, +3 plate mail, lute of {sleep, silence, slow}, etc.)
b) you won't be as good at spell-casting, especially healing
and fireball/nuclear blast.
\ /
Michael Huemer
Ken Fishkin <fis...@parc.xerox.com> writes:
>this is tempting, but
>a) you miss out on a LOT of nifty specialized weapons (the blade
>cuisnart, +3 plate mail, lute of {sleep, silence, slow}, etc.)
True about the blade, but as to the plate mail: who needs it, when
your AC is already -10? And aanyone can use those musical devices,
provided they have music skill. That just means you have to have done
a stint as a bard at least once; after that, you s\witch to something
else but keep adding skill points to music.
>b) you won't be as good at spell-casting, especially healing
>and fireball/nuclear blast.
Depends how many times you switched classes between various
spell-casting classes. ;) Only after you've got a few good priest
spells and nuclear blast do you switch classes to monk or ninja.
Thomas Stockheim
o...@rci.rutgers.edu (Michael Huemer) writes:
>Ken Fishkin <fis...@parc.xerox.com> writes:
>>this is tempting, but
>>a) you miss out on a LOT of nifty specialized weapons (the blade
>>cuisnart, +3 plate mail, lute of {sleep, silence, slow}, etc.)
>True about the blade, but as to the plate mail: who needs it, when
>your AC is already -10? And aanyone can use those musical devices,
>provided they have music skill. That just means you have to have done
>a stint as a bard at least once; after that, you s\witch to something
>else but keep adding skill points to music.
I think you are missing a big point here : Fire resistance !
Plate Mail +3 and Ebony plate give high fire resistance - especially
against the droids in the crypt that helps a lot. AC does not help that
much against area attacks I fear !
The best Samurai armours give high resistance as well.
I think a good party is Lord ( with good sword), Samurai (murasame blade),
Faerie Ninja, Monk (Zaitochi BO), Valkyrie( Maenads Lance),
Bishop ( Staff of Doom).
You can change the Bishop to another lord or valkyrie, but I like having
6 different classes.
Thomas
Michael Huemer
to...@informatik.rwth-aachen.de (Thomas Stockheim) writes:
>I think you are missing a big point here : Fire resistance !
>Plate Mail +3 and Ebony plate give high fire resistance - especially
>against the droids in the crypt that helps a lot. AC does not help that
>much against area attacks I fear !
Ah, I see. I've been wondering what one can do about that. I now
have AC's around -10 so am almost never hit, but those darned spells
still get through.
I just killed Rodan, though, and his medalion gives fire resistance,
plus a 3-point AC bonus. (Hey, he kept bothering me.)
Thomas Stockheim
o...@rci.rutgers.edu (Michael Huemer) writes:
>to...@informatik.rwth-aachen.de (Thomas Stockheim) writes:
>>I think you are missing a big point here : Fire resistance !
>>Plate Mail +3 and Ebony plate give high fire resistance - especially
>>against the droids in the crypt that helps a lot. AC does not help that
>>much against area attacks I fear !
>Ah, I see. I've been wondering what one can do about that. I now
>have AC's around -10 so am almost never hit, but those darned spells
>still get through.
>I just killed Rodan, though, and his medalion gives fire resistance,
>plus a 3-point AC bonus. (Hey, he kept bothering me.)
Well, give that thing to the one ninja or monk you have ,and another
one is protected from fire ! I think the diamond ring may have some
protection against fire too ?
Thomas
Maher Saleh
No, but a few brimstone nuggets would do the trick...
--
__o Maher Saleh
_\<, ap...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA
|/'(*) Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
..,(*),../""""
Stefan Schatzl
On 12 Jan 1997 08:00:47 -0500, o...@rci.rutgers.edu (Michael Huemer) wrote:
>ne...@ludens.elte.hu writes:
>
>>> And the Lord does just fine - gets to use any magic weapons or armor, does
>>> respectable damage, and so forth. is the Valkyrie that much better?
>>
>>of course not, its just the same.
>
>Only the VAlkyrie is easier to qualify for, and therefore better.
>
>>the recommended final party:
>>
>>valkyrie (or lord)
>>monk
>>samurai (the first three characters with s/l weapons)
>>ninja (the bonus fighter)
I tried a ninja several times in the fourth position... Not good, he never or
seldom could apply his deadly skills to have an critical hit.
>>mage
>>psionic (the two spellcasters, they have the best spells at
Take a ranger for the hit points, then switch later to a psionic.
>>high levels (nuclear blast etc), of course both of them have
The spell "Nuclear blast" seldom has an effect on high-level monsters...
Better: use Firestorm or a similar cloud-making spell.
>>already been monks/priests/alchimists for the special
>>skills/spells)
>
>Hm... I'm a simple man. My recommended final party would be 6 monks
>and/or ninjas because of the amazing armor class (this is, of course,
>after you've done enough of the class-switching to have lots of
>spells, spell points, and 100 in hand/foot and ninjutsu skill).
My dream team
(came from Bane, proved their worthiness also in Crusaders)
*- this is Wiz 6 end / 7 starting outfit -*
1. Human Lord (full Ebony Armour, The Avenger)
2. Felpurr Samurai (??? Armour (from the top Samurai Lord), Muramasa Blade,
Wakizashi Blade +1.5 ***
3. Dwarf / Human Ninja (Bushido Blade + Sai)
4. Elven Ranger (with Psionic spells, Cat'o'nine Tails / Elven Bow) ***
5. Dwarf Priest (Holy Basher)
6. Gnome Mage (Wizard's Ring / Robe / hat, Cat'o'nine Tail)
***) The Felpurr Samurai is the BEST type of Samurai, because I tried several
other races and none of the others killed and scored more critical hits as the
Felpurr Samurai. But there's a major disadvantage, because for MANY monsters
the main target was the Felpurr Samurai (He's especially vulnerable to
fire-based spells).
***) Rank 4 is a problem. Spellcasters are generally to weak. Fighters need
long-range weapons. I tried first a monk, then a bard, then at last a ranger
which first gained much HP's (by its profession), then later on was a bard and
a monk to gain their spells, and finally, reverted back to Ranger.
Bye,
Stefan.
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