DAGGERFALL- Why'd you all buy such a buggy piece of crap? They'll just keep making them.....
dstephen
Can't any of you wait until something is fixed before buying it? I
heard so many reports of bugs in the first game (Arena) that I never
bought it. People go out and buy this stuff like the first day when it
is totally unfinished. I guess someone has to so I know better. The
thing I can't figure out is how game magazines are giving it like 83
percent or above. I'd say based upon what I see hear it pretty much
bites... (I don't want to spend 2-10 hours in a dungeon killing
rats.... then bump into some mega vampire guy all of a sudden)
Well, after your beta testing you paid like 40 bucks to do is
over.. maybe I'll get it then with patch 369 final-hopefully for like
16 bucks in a bargain bin.
Based upond sales of this game, Bethesda will release number III
with a bunch of bugs also. They do it because they know they can get
away with it.
Dave
Sam Schlansky
That's right, apparantly they can.
Before DF, there had been no RPG's (good OR bad) for months. They timed the
release rather well, IMHO.
Admittably, it is quite possibly the buggiest game I've ever had the
displeasure to attempt to play, and I've been playing games since the Ultima 1
times.
But it is a RPG, so I bought it.
Sam
--
// Sam Schlansky
// s...@serve.com
// http://pages.nyu.edu/~sps1842
// PGP Key ID: 0x63A9D707
// PGP Fingerprint: 7B 55 3C E5 89 B4 A3 B5 28 7B 78 66 68 F6 4A 1F
// NOTE: Send mail to s...@serve.com, not
// s...@deletethis.serve.com. This foils spam filters.
Robyn Stephens
Jerry Caveney wrote:
>
> In <32a63cea...@news.mindspring.com> us00...@mindspring.com (Tim
> Meekins) writes:
> >...
> >it's not intentional. It simply appears to be a collision bug. If you
> >hit the corner of two walls at a particular angle or speed you'll pop
> >outside of the room. At which point it's nearly impossible to get back
> >inside a room and you have to restore a saved game.
> >
> >I had a similar bug where I exited a building in town, but when I
> >exited, it left slightly inside where the building was so I was stuck
> >inside the building. quite annoying.
> >
> If it's not intentional, why are there parts of dungeons whose only
> access is through doors from the void? And what does Bethesda mean by
> being able to travel to other dimensions in their ads?
>
> Jerry
I believe that Bethesda meant the Crux when they refer to another
dimension. As far as only accessing certain parts of the dungeon via the
void, I think that this is the same as the teleporters that don't work.
They are quest specific. I was sent to a dungeon on a side quest and the
teleporters didn't work so there were areas of the dungeon that I
couldn't get to. When I went back to the same dungeon as part of a main
quest, the teleporters worked.
Robyn
Robyn Stephens
Jerry Caveney wrote:
>
> In <32A2FE...@bconnex.net> Robyn Stephens <fde...@bconnex.net> writes:
> ...
> >> If it's not intentional, why are there parts of dungeons whose only
> >> access is through doors from the void? And what does Bethesda mean by
> >> being able to travel to other dimensions in their ads?
> >>
> >> Jerry
> >
> >I believe that Bethesda meant the Crux when they refer to another
> >dimension. As far as only accessing certain parts of the dungeon via
> the
> >void, I think that this is the same as the teleporters that don't
> work.
> >They are quest specific. I was sent to a dungeon on a side quest and
> the
> >teleporters didn't work so there were areas of the dungeon that I
> >couldn't get to. When I went back to the same dungeon as part of a
> main
> >quest, the teleporters worked.
> >
> >Robyn
>
> doors" in lots of dungeons, in out of the way provinces, in dungeons
> with no teleporters. And it's not just having an unconnected dungeon
> piece, there are doors that *open onto the void*. Have you seen these,
> then have them disappear when you go back in a teleporter-activated
> main quest?
>
> Jerry
I have never seen a door that opens into the void. What do they look
like? Can you actually travel normally inside this kind of void or is it
like the void you fall in during elevator rides and climbs up steep
ramps?
Robyn
adam russell
Actually, even with all the bugs, I think this is the best thing since
sliced bread. This game is keeping me satisfied longer than almost
anything I've ever played. The guys at the software store probably think I
must have fallen off the planet since I never show my face there anymore.
dstephen <dste...@probe.net> wrote in article
<32a54161...@news.probe.net>...
> Can't any of you wait until something is fixed before buying it? I
> heard so many reports of bugs in the first game (Arena) that I never
> bought it. People go out and buy this stuff like the first day when it
> is totally unfinished. I guess someone has to so I know better. The
> thing I can't figure out is how game magazines are giving it like 83
> percent or above. I'd say based upon what I see hear it pretty much
> bites... (I don't want to spend 2-10 hours in a dungeon killing
> rats.... then bump into some mega vampire guy all of a sudden)
> Well, after your beta testing you paid like 40 bucks to do is
> over.. maybe I'll get it then with patch 369 final-hopefully for like
> 16 bucks in a bargain bin.
> Based upond sales of this game, Bethesda will release number III
> with a bunch of bugs also. They do it because they know they can get
> away with it.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
Douglas Rener
> Based upond sales of this game, Bethesda will release number III
>with a bunch of bugs also. They do it because they know they can get
>away with it.
>
Hear, Hear!
Daggerfall sucks, Bethesda sucks worse for knowingly releasing a buggy
piece of sh*t!
What has happened to accountability?
p.s- My latest patch was to take the piece of junk back to the store
for a refund.
bluestoo
.
>
> dstephen <dste...@probe.net> wrote in article
> <32a54161...@news.probe.net>...
> > Based upond sales of this game, Bethesda will release number III
> > with a bunch of bugs also. They do it because they know they can get
> > away with it.
> >
> > Dave
Well, maybe they can sucker somebody else, but I'll never buy from Bethesda
again.
'nother Dave.
Anthony L. Cermak
Daggercrash is still that. While some might say an incremental fix is
better than none, this software seems to have been (the long development
time not withstanding), unfortunately, released not long after it was
vaporware. Like many, I have foolishly continued hoping for a fix, while
in effect serving as a beta tester. Unfortunately, even the recent 190+
fix just doesn't do it. Saves still don't reload reliably (both lock up
and "the blue arrow" phenomenom), quests don't terminate, required actions
can't always be performed. The scale was vast, but so what if it isn't
reliable? And please: one more rehashed dungeon and I may throw up! The
"vast" scale is mainly a repeat, repeat, repeat, with minor variations, as
if an incompetent architect worked for all the provences of the Iliac Bay
for 1000 yearsnd kept saying to himself, "The King of Wayrest will never
see this dungeon in Daggerfall", etc. ad nauseum.
This is, simply, purile addiction and I am as addicted as any, wasting vast
amounts of time the last two months (oh, Lord, what have I done!) on
murder, theft, necromancy, and all other sins. Why? As a pastime it is
not creative, nor edifying to the spirits, the emotions, the intellect, nor
the body. It is, in short, no better than (indeed, even worse than) what
J.R.R. Tolkien called "morbid delusion".
I think I am done with it, but I've said that before...one thing I know
that I'm done with is EVER EVER EVER buying ANYTHING from Bethesda (though
I will say that if you can get through to them past over-full email boxes,
the techsupport folks there are nice enough).
Douglas Rener <dre...@erols.com> wrote in article
<32a3cefe...@news.erols.com>...
> > Based upond sales of this game, Bethesda will release number III
> >with a bunch of bugs also. They do it because they know they can get
> >away with it.
> >
>
William Van Fleet
Anthony L. Cermak <cer...@vom.com> wrote in article
<01bbe0e8$655abae0$6943c1d0@default>...
> Well said! Good post!
Bill
--
<<God save us from Ghosties and Ghoulies and Things that go Bump in the
Night>>
slink
dste...@probe.net (dstephen) wrote:
> Can't any of you wait until something is fixed before buying it? I
>heard so many reports of bugs in the first game (Arena) that I never
>bought it. People go out and buy this stuff like the first day when it
>is totally unfinished. I guess someone has to so I know better. The
>thing I can't figure out is how game magazines are giving it like 83
>percent or above. I'd say based upon what I see hear it pretty much
>bites... (I don't want to spend 2-10 hours in a dungeon killing
>rats.... then bump into some mega vampire guy all of a sudden)
> Well, after your beta testing you paid like 40 bucks to do is
>over.. maybe I'll get it then with patch 369 final-hopefully for like
>16 bucks in a bargain bin.
> Based upond sales of this game, Bethesda will release number III
>with a bunch of bugs also. They do it because they know they can get
>away with it.
>Dave
That's kind of like asking Pinto owners why they bought an exploding
car. We knew it might have problems, but we didn't think they would
be *this* bad.
And you are right. Someone has to buy programs at $40 or they will
never appear in your bargain bin. Programmers don't work for minimum
wage.
Sandra
Brian Oster
On Tue, 03 Dec 1996 12:26:28 GMT, sl...@netins.net (slink) wrote:
>dste...@probe.net (dstephen) wrote:
>
>> Can't any of you wait until something is fixed before buying it? I
>>heard so many reports of bugs in the first game (Arena) that I never
>>bought it. People go out and buy this stuff like the first day when it
>>is totally unfinished. I guess someone has to so I know better. The
>>thing I can't figure out is how game magazines are giving it like 83
>>percent or above. I'd say based upon what I see hear it pretty much
>>bites... (I don't want to spend 2-10 hours in a dungeon killing
>>rats.... then bump into some mega vampire guy all of a sudden)
>> Well, after your beta testing you paid like 40 bucks to do is
>>over.. maybe I'll get it then with patch 369 final-hopefully for like
>>16 bucks in a bargain bin.
>> Based upond sales of this game, Bethesda will release number III
>>with a bunch of bugs also. They do it because they know they can get
>>away with it.
>
>>Dave
>
>
>That's kind of like asking Pinto owners why they bought an exploding
>car. We knew it might have problems, but we didn't think they would
>be *this* bad.
To further this analogy I believe it is more like buying a car in
Russia. The cars there are pieces of crap, but the alternative
is walking.
Brian Oster
Wesley VanLandschoot
bluestoo wrote:
>
> .
> >
> > dstephen <dste...@probe.net> wrote in article
> > <32a54161...@news.probe.net>...
>
> > > with a bunch of bugs also. They do it because they know they can get
> > > away with it.
> > >
> > > Dave
>
> again.
>
> 'nother Dave.
Because it is the best RPG since FF3 for the Super Nintendo. I just got
it and it plays fine. DAGGERFALL IS THE SHIT!!!!!!!!!!!
SkimLizard
dstephen wrote:
>
> Can't any of you wait until something is fixed before buying it? I
> heard so many reports of bugs in the first game (Arena) that I never
> bought it. People go out and buy this stuff like the first day when it
> is totally unfinished. I guess someone has to so I know better. The
> thing I can't figure out is how game magazines are giving it like 83
> percent or above. I'd say based upon what I see hear it pretty much
> bites... (I don't want to spend 2-10 hours in a dungeon killing
> rats.... then bump into some mega vampire guy all of a sudden)
> Well, after your beta testing you paid like 40 bucks to do is
> over.. maybe I'll get it then with patch 369 final-hopefully for like
> 16 bucks in a bargain bin.
> with a bunch of bugs also. They do it because they know they can get
> away with it.
>
> Dave
frankly daggerfall offers far more than any other rpg out there (imo).
big world, lots of towns, lots of quests, lots of guilds, i can play
almost any role i want, i can make my own spells, my own magic items,
my own character class, etc etc... and i seem to be one of the few lucky
ones who hasn't had the game crash repeatedly on me.
dungeons rarely take me more than an hour (often much less: try casting
invisibility and just walk past your enemies!).
i dunno... i see a lot of negative posts here and can't identify much
with them. i wonder if it's because the people who like the game are
spending their time enjoying it instead of posting page-long This Game
Sucks posts.
--
H+K Capelli (skiml...@earthlink.net)
Teren, SoTES Scribe of Morrowind
Rayla, Breton Healer
Dale Beaver
>frankly daggerfall offers far more than any other rpg out there (imo).
>big world, lots of towns, lots of quests, lots of guilds, i can play
>almost any role i want, i can make my own spells, my own magic items,
>my own character class, etc etc... and i seem to be one of the few lucky
>ones who hasn't had the game crash repeatedly on me.
>
>dungeons rarely take me more than an hour (often much less: try casting
>invisibility and just walk past your enemies!).
>
>i dunno... i see a lot of negative posts here and can't identify much
>with them. i wonder if it's because the people who like the game are
>spending their time enjoying it instead of posting page-long This Game
>Sucks posts.
>
>--
>
>H+K Capelli (skiml...@earthlink.net)
>
>Teren, SoTES Scribe of Morrowind
>Rayla, Breton Healer
I have a general question for the programmers out there, as
one of the people that has experienced minimal troubles with DF. Is
the falling into the void actually a 'clipping error'? The only times
this has ever occured for me is at places where wall sections or
dungeon sections joined. I've never fallen through the floor or the
walls; the few times it has occured (by accident or deliberate
attempt) has been where there is a sharp angle, such as a floor
joining a wall, or the very steep steps in the very narrow dungeon
section. Is the joining of discrete sections under control of the
clipping routines, or does clipping apply only to surface integrity?
Jerry Caveney
In <32a5dcf6...@news.usit.net> dal...@usit.net (Dale Beaver) writes:
>...
> I have a general question for the programmers out there, as
>one of the people that has experienced minimal troubles with DF. Is
>the falling into the void actually a 'clipping error'? The only times
>this has ever occured for me is at places where wall sections or
>dungeon sections joined. I've never fallen through the floor or the
>walls; the few times it has occured (by accident or deliberate
>attempt) has been where there is a sharp angle, such as a floor
>joining a wall, or the very steep steps in the very narrow dungeon
>section. Is the joining of discrete sections under control of the
>clipping routines, or does clipping apply only to surface integrity?
>
I don't know in fact what "clipping" means, but it appears that "the void" is
intentional in DF. The ads refer to being able to travel to other dimensions,
and I suspect those are are the airy and watery voids. In addition, there are
some parts of most dungeons that can only be accessed through the void: you
enter them through doors from the void! (Have never found a quest goal
in one though, and be careful: many of the entry doors are on the edge
of the dungeon map, so if you try to get the place you'd enter from,
you crash. (always check on the automap where you are before entering a
void door--if you're at the edge of the yellow, don't try it. Can
always try to slip in through an angled corridor, if there is one, as
other posts have explained.) Seems that if Beth meant for us to go in
the void, they'd have had some doors *into* it from the main dungeon.
Other folks thoughts?
On a related topic, has anyone ever gotten to the ancient magical
kingdom that disapppeared long ago, according to a couple of the books
in DF? (Can't remember the name). If so, how about a hint (not a
spoiler) on how to get there. And is it worthwhile (not giving you
something superpowerful, just is it fun, or really nothing different)?
Also related, has anyone found any dragons (not dragonlings)? The
manual implies they may be in the desert, but I've come across no clues
to them there. Again, a hint, not spoiler, would be appreciated.
Jerry
G. Fischer
SkimLizard <skiml...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>dstephen wrote:
>>
>> Can't any of you wait until something is fixed before buying it?
--------------------------(snip)------------------------
>> (I don't want to spend 2-10 hours in a dungeon killing
>> rats.... then bump into some mega vampire guy all of a sudden)
--------------------------(snip)---------------------------
>> Based upond sales of this game, Bethesda will release number III
>> with a bunch of bugs also. They do it because they know they can get
>> away with it.
>>
>> Dave
>frankly daggerfall offers far more than any other rpg out there (imo).
>big world, lots of towns, lots of quests, lots of guilds, i can play
>almost any role i want, i can make my own spells, my own magic items,
>my own character class, etc etc... and i seem to be one of the few lucky
>ones who hasn't had the game crash repeatedly on me.
I agree. I have been playing for 2 1/2 months now and am not bored
at all. But I, too, am one of the lucky ones with infrequent crashes.
I am taking my time, I am not hollering "BUG!!" at every little
strange thing that occurs - like quest letters not disappearing from
the log... so what! If you did the quest and got a response from the
quest giver, just go on, for pete's sake.
>dungeons rarely take me more than an hour (often much less: try casting
>invisibility and just walk past your enemies!).
Another chance here to comment on how well my dungeon-mapping method
works. I am never lost and I always find my quest target. The huge
dungeons do not frustrate me at all. (e-mail me for more info on my
method)
>i dunno... i see a lot of negative posts here and can't identify much
>with them. i wonder if it's because the people who like the game are
>spending their time enjoying it instead of posting page-long This Game
>Sucks posts.
>H+K Capelli (skiml...@earthlink.net)
>Teren, SoTES Scribe of Morrowind
>Rayla, Breton Healer
Must be true.
Have fun!
Gayle
gfis...@indyvax.iupui.edu
Tim Meekins
jcav...@ix.netcom.com(Jerry Caveney ) wrote:
it's not intentional. It simply appears to be a collision bug. If you
Jerry Caveney
>hit the corner of two walls at a particular angle or speed you'll pop
>outside of the room. At which point it's nearly impossible to get back
>inside a room and you have to restore a saved game.
>
>I had a similar bug where I exited a building in town, but when I
>exited, it left slightly inside where the building was so I was stuck
>inside the building. quite annoying.
>
roispark
SkimLizard <skiml...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>dstephen wrote:
>>
>> Can't any of you wait until something is fixed before buying it? I
>> heard so many reports of bugs in the first game (Arena) that I never
>> bought it. People go out and buy this stuff like the first day when it
>> is totally unfinished. I guess someone has to so I know better. The
>> thing I can't figure out is how game magazines are giving it like 83
>> percent or above. I'd say based upon what I see hear it pretty much
>> bites... (I don't want to spend 2-10 hours in a dungeon killing
>> rats.... then bump into some mega vampire guy all of a sudden)
>> Well, after your beta testing you paid like 40 bucks to do is
>> over.. maybe I'll get it then with patch 369 final-hopefully for like
>> 16 bucks in a bargain bin.
>> Based upond sales of this game, Bethesda will release number III
>> with a bunch of bugs also. They do it because they know they can get
>> away with it.
>>
>> Dave
>
>frankly daggerfall offers far more than any other rpg out there (imo).
>big world, lots of towns, lots of quests, lots of guilds, i can play
>almost any role i want, i can make my own spells, my own magic items,
>my own character class, etc etc... and i seem to be one of the few lucky
>ones who hasn't had the game crash repeatedly on me.
>
>dungeons rarely take me more than an hour (often much less: try casting
>invisibility and just walk past your enemies!).
>
>i dunno... i see a lot of negative posts here and can't identify much
>with them. i wonder if it's because the people who like the game are
>spending their time enjoying it instead of posting page-long This Game
>Sucks posts.
>
>--
You sound just like the salesman at Waldenbooks when you tell him the
game is buggy as hell. Makes you wonder what game they are playing.
And don't tell me the patch is coming out this Friday...yeah, right!
Andy P.
Jerry Caveney
>> access is through doors from the void? And what does Bethesda mean by
>> being able to travel to other dimensions in their ads?
>>
>> Jerry
>
Jerry Caveney
In <32A30A...@bconnex.net> Robyn Stephens <fde...@bconnex.net> writes:
>like? Can you actually travel normally inside this kind of void or is it
>like the void you fall in during elevator rides and climbs up steep
>ramps?
>
>Robyn
It's the same void, just go into it while levitating and you can get
around. You can save there (if standing on a ceiling it's safer) and
can rest there (again, if standing on a ceiling, and you've cleared the
dungeon so there aren't any monsters around). to get out into the void
on purpose, as others here explained to me, cast lev., get on a stair
way, hit D (crouch), then levitate up or down and keep hitting D. Try
a few places and you'll get into the void. To get back, do the same
thing from under a stairway (steeper the better).
Doors into the void look like any doorway from above (in the void). Go
down beside one (be sure you're not on the edge of the dungeon--check
on yellow map in automap--else you'll crash), click on the door, it
opens, go in. From inside, door looks normal, just opens into
blackness.
Btw, any info on my other two orignal questions: any dragons (in
desert?) as suggested in manual? and any way to get to the ancient
magical kingdom mentioned in a couple of the books (can't remember its
name)?
Jerry
slink
us00...@mindspring.com (Tim Meekins) wrote:
>jcav...@ix.netcom.com(Jerry Caveney ) wrote:
>it's not intentional. It simply appears to be a collision bug. If you
>hit the corner of two walls at a particular angle or speed you'll pop
>outside of the room. At which point it's nearly impossible to get back
>inside a room and you have to restore a saved game.
>I had a similar bug where I exited a building in town, but when I
>exited, it left slightly inside where the building was so I was stuck
>inside the building. quite annoying.
Someone, and I regret not being able to retrieve the document to give
proper credit, told me sure fire way to get back in from the void.
You have to be able to use levitiate spell. Levitate up under a
stairwell, crouch, levitate face-on into the stairs, uncrouch and push
up. I can get in everytime that way, unless there's an enemy pushing
me back out. Be careful about pushing up before you uncrouch. You
can go right back out through the ceiling of the stairwell levitating
crouched. In fact, that's how Fliijit Voidwalker gets there.
Sandra
Henry...@baylor.edu
SkimLizard <skiml...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>i dunno... i see a lot of negative posts here and can't identify much
>with them. i wonder if it's because the people who like the game are
>spending their time enjoying it instead of posting page-long This Game
>Sucks posts.
>
>--
>
>H+K Capelli (skiml...@earthlink.net)
>
>Teren, SoTES Scribe of Morrowind
>Rayla, Breton Healer
How about that it's impossible to enjoy, that writing a page long
"This Game Sucks" post is more enjoyable?
Howard L. Ring
|> > >it's not intentional. It simply appears to be a collision bug. If you
|> > >hit the corner of two walls at a particular angle or speed you'll pop
|> > >outside of the room. At which point it's nearly impossible to get back
|> > >inside a room and you have to restore a saved game.
|> > >
|> > >I had a similar bug where I exited a building in town, but when I
|> > >exited, it left slightly inside where the building was so I was stuck
|> > >inside the building. quite annoying.
|> > >
|> > access is through doors from the void? And what does Bethesda mean by
|> > being able to travel to other dimensions in their ads?
|> >
|> > Jerry
|>
|> I believe that Bethesda meant the Crux when they refer to another
|> dimension. As far as only accessing certain parts of the dungeon via the
|> void, I think that this is the same as the teleporters that don't work.
|> They are quest specific. I was sent to a dungeon on a side quest and the
|> teleporters didn't work so there were areas of the dungeon that I
|> couldn't get to. When I went back to the same dungeon as part of a main
|> quest, the teleporters worked.
|>
|> Robyn
At least some dungeons have parts that can only be accessed through the
void, or via a teleporter. There is no way back though, except through
the void, or a non-visible teleporter. I have come across one non-visible
teleporter, so I suppose there could be more. These parts of the dungeon
frequently have occupants, you can often hear them from normally accessible
parts of the dungeon. I get the impression that these parts of the
dungeon were left over from the design phase and should have been
eliminated in the cleanup. I'm not sure if they are occupied at entry
or populated later by the random monster generator. Perhaps this is
where a lot of unfound quest items reside, although this has not
happened to me (fingers crossed, knock on wood).
The problem of entering the void is most likely a collision detection
problem. It happens most often at the intersection of (or rather lack of)
two or more surfaces, or when one has a high rate of speed, such as that
obtained from falling (or a bow). There are probably a few more holes in
their algorithm too, such as incrementing before checking. I think patch
175 made your character a little wider to try and prevent this falling
into the void between two surfaces.
Howard
--
============================================================================
Howard Ring Email: hr...@ford.com
============================================================================
Orithill Noldar
slink wrote:
>
<snip>
> >it's not intentional. It simply appears to be a collision bug. If you
> >hit the corner of two walls at a particular angle or speed you'll pop
> >outside of the room. At which point it's nearly impossible to get back
> >inside a room and you have to restore a saved game.
Read on friend
<snip>.
>
> Someone, and I regret not being able to retrieve the document to give
> proper credit, told me sure fire way to get back in from the void.
> You have to be able to use levitiate spell. Levitate up under a
> stairwell, crouch, levitate face-on into the stairs, uncrouch and push
> up. I can get in everytime that way, unless there's an enemy pushing
> me back out. Be careful about pushing up before you uncrouch. You
> can go right back out through the ceiling of the stairwell levitating
> crouched. In fact, that's how Fliijit Voidwalker gets there.
>
> Sandra
Here is a good one from The_wolf,a noted Voidranger:
* I'll share my void ranger tricks for all who are interested....
* S
* P
* O
* I
* L
* E
* R
*
*
*
* The easiest way in is to cast levitate, and then levitate up
* to
* either
* a corner where two types of dungeon connect, or a sloped passage.
* The
* slopes are usually easier. Use "d" to duck down, then go as high as
* you
* can. Next, turn around, so your back is to the wall, and go up again
* if
* you can. Then, back into it and stop just as you touch it. Then hit
* "d" again and stand up. Usually you stand right through the
* ceiling/wall. I have more luck on the slopes personally.
* TO GET OUT: First and foremost is the trusty Anchor and
* Teleport
* method. Second, if you can find a sloped passage, use it to wedge
* yourself back into the dungeon. Duck down, walk up it, and then
* stand
* back up. You can also do this by levitating. Duck, float up to a
* floor. Stand upright through the panel and float up into the room.
* It
* usually works best on edges of Dungeon and slopes, and works exactly
* the
* reverse of getting in. I.E. ease up to it, wiggle through, etc.
*
* ALWAYS SAVE FIRST!! I can't stress that enough. Camping in
* the
* void
* is safe, but it's hard to get away from the monsters, and sometimes
* hard
* to find all of them in your area. I have never saved in the void,
* personally, so I don't know if this is safe. Someone else might want
* to
* elaborate on that.
*
*
* Good Luck, and Happy Questing,
* The_Wolf, Scribe of High Rock
I have saved safely several times from the void...didn't seem to cause
any problems for me.
Hope it helps,
--
~~Orithill Noldar
~~Scribe of Sumurset Isle
~~(A High Elf With An Attitude)
Robert J. Saunders
>
>* TO GET OUT: First and foremost is the trusty Anchor and
>* Teleport
>* method. Second, if you can find a sloped passage, use it to wedge
>* yourself back into the dungeon. Duck down, walk up it, and then
(snip)
>~~Orithill Noldar
>~~Scribe of Sumurset Isle
>~~(A High Elf With An Attitude)
Hi all,
Just one more hint; you can use a red brick teleporter if you know
there is one or can see one while in the void. (Use the 3d map and
rotate to remind you where they are)
Pauly
Jerry Caveney
In a previous post, I had a few questions, and the thread centered on
voids, so let me repost the others (no responses yet to these):
1. A couple of the books in DF mention an ancient magical region on an
island that has disappeared, but the book says it can still be reached
sometimes (can't remember the name of the place, but it is in the title
of one of the books). Has anyone found this place? If so, how about a
hint (not spoiler) on how to get there.
2. The DF manual hints that true dragons, not just dragonlings, may be
found somewhere in the desert. Has anyone found one? Again, if so,
how about a hint.
3. (New) I tried to enroll in the Scribes of DF on the web, but after
a week have not received the email I was told to wait for. How long
should this take?
Thanks.
Jerry
Dale Beaver
us00...@mindspring.com (Tim Meekins) wrote:
>it's not intentional. It simply appears to be a collision bug. If you
>hit the corner of two walls at a particular angle or speed you'll pop
>outside of the room. At which point it's nearly impossible to get back
>inside a room and you have to restore a saved game.
>
>I had a similar bug where I exited a building in town, but when I
>exited, it left slightly inside where the building was so I was stuck
>inside the building. quite annoying.
>
Ahh. Thanks. I was wondering if the daggerbashers were
screaming the wrong error message. The little bit I have read seemed
to indicate that there were two different subroutines involved .
Roger Musson
In article <58984a$4...@insosf1.netins.net> sl...@netins.net (slink) writes:
>From: sl...@netins.net (slink)
>Subject: Re: DF: Voids and other strange places (was: DAGGERFALL- Why I bought such a buggy piece of crap?
>Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 12:46:48 GMT
>Someone, and I regret not being able to retrieve the document to give
>proper credit, told me sure fire way to get back in from the void.
>You have to be able to use levitiate spell. Levitate up under a
>stairwell, crouch, levitate face-on into the stairs, uncrouch and push
>up. I can get in everytime that way, unless there's an enemy pushing
>me back out. Be careful about pushing up before you uncrouch. You
>can go right back out through the ceiling of the stairwell levitating
>crouched. In fact, that's how Fliijit Voidwalker gets there.
On the other hand, if I try to levitate while in the void, I die instantly.
Why?
Roger Musson
r.mu...@bgs.ac.uk
Jerry Caveney
In <e_rmwm.52...@va.nmh.ac.uk> e_r...@va.nmh.ac.uk (Roger
Musson) writes:
...
>On the other hand, if I try to levitate while in the void, I die
instantly.
>Why?
>
>
>
>
>Roger Musson
>r.mu...@bgs.ac.uk
this only happens to me if I fall into the void without levitate, and
apparently fall all the way to the bottom, whatever that is. If I
levitate into the void, I can recast it as much as I like, rest, save,
and restore, all with no problems. (Playing patch 191).
Jerry
craig
Roger Musson wrote:
[SNIP]
> On the other hand, if I try to levitate while in the void, I die instantly.
> Why?
If you hit the edge, top or bottom of the void, either you die or the
game crashes. When I fell into the void in a mages guild I died right
after casting levitate...
Craig
Richard Bukowski
In article <585r66$m...@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
Jerry Caveney <jcav...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>In <32a63cea...@news.mindspring.com> us00...@mindspring.com (Tim
>Meekins) writes:
>access is through doors from the void?
The dungeons in Daggerfall are built from a number of "building
blocks" that just get stuck together side by side. In order to make
their random dungeon generation easier, the blocks are made so that
they fit together in any combination, so that all you have to do to
make a random dungeon is to tack a random set of them together and
call it a day.
This means that the sides of the blocks that end up on the "outside"
of the set of blocks will have doors and passages that go out into the
"edge" of the world, since if you wanted to put another block there
the new block would form a continuation of that passage. So, those
extra bits are not bugs, nor are they left over from debugging; they
are just the parts of the block that _would_ connect to the next block
over, if there were another block in that direction.
And as far as whether the void is a bug or not, I can unequivocally
say that it is a bug. My research is into architectural walkthroughs,
and this problem of "falling through cracks" is endemic to any kind of
virtual environment that uses a boundary representation of walls and
floors. Of course, if you do your geometric computations properly,
you can solve the problem. Clearly Bethesda doesn't quite know what
they're doing in this area. The Berkeley walkthrough project is very
similar to Daggerfall in that we use a boundary representation for our
building, and we have a "void" of our own (ours is blue. :) I have
never fallen through an edge in the Walkthrough, and I've been using
it for 5 years now.
Rick
--
Richard William Bukowski | Computer Science Department
Buko...@CS.Berkeley.EDU | University of California at Berkeley
"Ph'nglui mglw'nafh "BOB" D'lyeh Wgah'nagl Dhobbz f'htagn."
"The best way to accelerate a Macintosh is 9.8 m/s^2." - J. Evans
John N. White
|> On the other hand, if I try to levitate while in the void, I die instantly.
|> Why?
|
| If you hit the edge, top or bottom of the void, either you die or the
| game crashes. When I fell into the void in a mages guild I died right
| after casting levitate...
If you cast levitate while falling it is like going splat against
hard rock. Cast slowfall first.
--
j...@vnet.net (John N. White)
Dale Beaver
e_r...@va.nmh.ac.uk (Roger Musson) wrote:
>>Someone, and I regret not being able to retrieve the document to give
>>proper credit, told me sure fire way to get back in from the void.
>>You have to be able to use levitiate spell. Levitate up under a
>>stairwell, crouch, levitate face-on into the stairs, uncrouch and push
>>up. I can get in everytime that way, unless there's an enemy pushing
>>me back out. Be careful about pushing up before you uncrouch. You
>>can go right back out through the ceiling of the stairwell levitating
>>crouched. In fact, that's how Fliijit Voidwalker gets there.
>
>On the other hand, if I try to levitate while in the void, I die instantly.
>Why?
Ever heard that old saying 'It's not the fall, its that sudden
stop at the end that really ruins your day'? As near as I can tell,
once you fall into the void, unless you land on part of the actual
dungeon, the program is treating you as being in freefall. Casting
levitate effectively puts a floor beneath you, since the spell
requires your input to change your altitude. Sudden stop from virtual
terminal velocity. Crunch.
Oh and Sandra? Thanks for the tip. I goofed playing around
looking into the Void; saved a good hour's worth of monster chopping.
Dale
Jerry Caveney
In <58hsoh$t...@agate.berkeley.edu> buko...@fudge.CS.Berkeley.EDU
(Richard Bukowski) writes:
>
>In article <585r66$m...@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
>Jerry Caveney <jcav...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>In <32a63cea...@news.mindspring.com> us00...@mindspring.com
(Tim
>>Meekins) writes:
>>If it's not intentional, why are there parts of dungeons whose only
>>access is through doors from the void?
>>Jerry
>
>The dungeons in Daggerfall are built from a number of "building
>blocks" that just get stuck together side by side. In order to make
>their random dungeon generation easier, the blocks are made so that
>they fit together in any combination, so that all you have to do to
>make a random dungeon is to tack a random set of them together and
>call it a day.
>
>This means that the sides of the blocks that end up on the "outside"
>of the set of blocks will have doors and passages that go out into the
>"edge" of the world, since if you wanted to put another block there
>the new block would form a continuation of that passage. So, those
>extra bits are not bugs, nor are they left over from debugging; they
>are just the parts of the block that _would_ connect to the next block
>over, if there were another block in that direction.
Thanks for the post. But if the "void doors" are a random dungeon
generator artifact, so to speak, why are the void doors only on
unconnected dungeon pieces? The "main" dungeon, the one you enter and
in which the quest object always is found (if it is found), never has
"void doors" (at least not in the 200+ I've done). Shouldn't parts of
the main dungeon at the edge of the dungeon space (which occurs often),
have doors into the void according to your explanation? (Which, if
they existed, would lead to a crash if you tried to enter them, since
you'd be leaving the dungeon edges.)
Not trying to be picky, just curious as to what is really going on in
the Daggerfall dungeons.
Jerry
Brent MacLeod
I read somewhere and have found to be true, when you FALL into the
void, you must first cast slowfall BEFORE levitate or you die,
presumably from coming to a rapid halt as if you hit a floor.
Otherwise, if you can get a levitate off before you pick up too much
speed you'll take no or very little damage, and if you purposely
levitate into the void, no problem. Try it, it's great....
Richard Bukowski
In article <58i9a5$s...@sjx-ixn7.ix.netcom.com>,
Jerry Caveney <jcav...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Thanks for the post. But if the "void doors" are a random dungeon
>generator artifact, so to speak, why are the void doors only on
>unconnected dungeon pieces? The "main" dungeon, the one you enter and
>in which the quest object always is found (if it is found), never has
>"void doors" (at least not in the 200+ I've done). Shouldn't parts of
>the main dungeon at the edge of the dungeon space (which occurs often),
>have doors into the void according to your explanation? (Which, if
>they existed, would lead to a crash if you tried to enter them, since
>you'd be leaving the dungeon edges.)
Good point - you're absolutely right about this. And, as it turns
out, if you think about it, my initial explanation can't be completely
true, since there would _always_ be some door onto the void if it was
possible to connect the blocks in _any_ order at all.
Thus, let me revise my statement: the blocks cannot be connected in
just any old order. Each type of block has an "internal connectedness" which
determines which sides can lead to which other sides. For example, a
type A block might connect the east side to the south side, and the
west side to the north side. A type B block might connect the west to
the south, and the north to the east. It is straightforward to write
a program that adds blocks to sides until the graph of where you can
get to is "closed" in the sense that, if you enter in an "appropriate"
spot, you will never encounter a void door. For example, the 2x2
dungeon composed of:
AB
BA
will have an internal structure with a closed loop that goes through
all 4 blocks, plus 4 completely separate "void chunks" in the corners
that go from nowhere to nowhere. Note that the layout is
2-dimensional; if you look at the little yellow "block map" on the
side of Daggerfall's automap screen, there is only one layer of
blocks. They only connect directions E, S, N, and W, not Up and
Down.
In fact, if you posit a third block type C, which connects all sides
together (you can get from any direction to any direction), you can
make a valid dungeon like so:
AB
ACCB
BCCA
BA
or
ABAB
ACCCCB
BCCCCA
BABA
or
AB
ACCB
BCCA
ACCB
BCCA
AB
Do these look familiar? I've seen a _lot_ of the random dungeons in
Daggerfall have these block patterns. If you assume there
are no blocks that just enter on one side, you are forced to make
patterns that are eerily like those the Daggerfall dungeons take on.
>Not trying to be picky, just curious as to what is really going on in
>the Daggerfall dungeons.
Not at all. I hope you find this illuminating.
Jerry Caveney
In <58lnon$o...@agate.berkeley.edu> buko...@fudge.CS.Berkeley.EDU
(Richard Bukowski) writes:
>
...
Your analysis makes sense, but unless I'm missing something, it still
doesn't explain why the "main" dungeon is always "closed" (no void
doors), while other pieces of the dungeon are sometimes open, sometimes
closed--unless it's intentional.
Jerry
William Harris
In article <32A994...@connect.net>, hma...@connect.net says...
>* The easiest way in is to cast levitate, and then levitate up
>* to
>* either
>* a corner where two types of dungeon connect, or a sloped passage.
But you need to be able to cast it. I am running a character who has at most
36 mana. Not enough to cast levitate.
--
William Harris
Richard Bukowski
In article <58mvj1$o...@sjx-ixn9.ix.netcom.com>,
Jerry Caveney <jcav...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Your analysis makes sense, but unless I'm missing something, it still
>doesn't explain why the "main" dungeon is always "closed" (no void
>doors), while other pieces of the dungeon are sometimes open, sometimes
>closed--unless it's intentional.
Well... You're missing something. :)
I'm not sure how to explain here -- it would be easy to draw a
picture, but with text, it's hard to do. So... maybe I can draw a
picture. I hope you're using a fixed-spaced font. :)
Here's an A tile. The "lines" are edges and the P's are a path.
This tile has the north and west connected and south and east connected.
|--P--|
| PP |
| P |
PPP PPP
| P |
| PP |
|--P--|
Now, here's a B tile. This one connects N to E and S to W.
|--P--|
| PP |
| P |
PPP PPP
| P |
| PP |
|--P--|
Now, let's put a tile set together:
AB
BA
Which looks like:
|--P--||--P--|
| PP || PP |
| P || P |
PPP PPPPPP PPP
| P || P |
| PP || PP |
|--P--||--P--|
|--P--||--P--|
| PP || PP |
| P || P |
PPP PPPPPP PPP
| P || P |
| PP || PP |
|--P--||--P--|
Can you see the one closed circle in the center, with 4 "void
hallways" around the outside? If you start in the circle, you can't
get out of the circle; but the void hallways don't connect to each
other, or to the circle.
The only thing that matters about a tile is that the connections on
the 4 sides are in the same places on the sides (the center of the
side in my tiles above), and which sides are connected to which other
sides. The internal paths can snake around with rooms and hallways as
much as you want, but as long at the only path is from the N side to
the E side, or the W side to the S side, it's equivalent to the B tile
above.
If you want, make A and B tiles out of slips of paper and put them
together. The C tile I talked about before would be
|--P--|
| P |
| P |
PPPPPPP
| P |
| P |
|--P--|
If you put together
AB
BCCA
ACCB
BA
you will see that there is a section in the middle that is closed;
once in it, you can't escape. So, in daggerfall, you'd just have the
"dungeon exit door" on some hallway of the closed section, and there
are no void doors on that section. Of course, in the corners of the A
and B tiles, there will be hallways that are inaccessible from the
interior closed section, but are accessible from the void.
Whew...
Roger Musson
In article <32ac4e22...@news.usit.net> dal...@usit.net (Dale Beaver) writes:
>From: dal...@usit.net (Dale Beaver)
>Subject: Re: DF: Voids and other strange places (was: DAGGERFALL- Why I bought such a buggy piece of crap?
>e_r...@va.nmh.ac.uk (Roger Musson) wrote:
>>
>>On the other hand, if I try to levitate while in the void, I die instantly.
>>Why?
>
> Ever heard that old saying 'It's not the fall, its that sudden
>stop at the end that really ruins your day'? As near as I can tell,
>once you fall into the void, unless you land on part of the actual
>dungeon, the program is treating you as being in freefall. Casting
>levitate effectively puts a floor beneath you, since the spell
>requires your input to change your altitude. Sudden stop from virtual
>terminal velocity. Crunch.
Actually, I don't think that's it. What happens is:
1) Fall into void
2) Fall to bottom of void
3) Stop there
4) Cast Levitate (OK so far)
5) Hit "Page Up" key - POW! dead.
Roger Musson
r.mu...@bgs.ac.uk
Jerry Caveney
In <58ofl7$1...@agate.berkeley.edu> buko...@fudge.CS.Berkeley.EDU (Richard
Not surprised I was missing something--I'm missing lots of things <8-)= .
And to be totally honest, I didn't study your previous post as carefully as I
could have, so if I hadn't been mentally lazy, I presume I could have
understood your whole point from that post. But thanks for going to the extra
trouble--it's clear now (which probably means I *really* don't understand it).
What I didn't pick up on the first time, and I think this was the critical
lack of understanding on my part, was that a tile isn't just a section of
passages/rooms (dungeon in the normal sense), but a collection of
passages/rooms and blank spaces (void)--dungeon in the sense of "a part of the
entire space allotted to a DF dungeon area."
In any case, you have finally convinced me, if that is any consolation for all
the trouble you went to. I appreciate it, and in fact saved the post to my
HD, which I rarely do. I have a Ph.D. from many years ago, which perhaps
explains my obtuseness ("piled higher and deeper").
Thanks!
Jerry
Yes, fortunately I do use a fixed-space font.
slink
75176...@compuserve.com (William Harris) wrote:
Or buy an enchanted item from the Temple of Julianos, or use potions.
Of course now that we're stuck with one temple, it's pretty hard for
the mana-challenged. :)
Sandra
D.D. Johnston
On 12 Dec 1996 03:02:09 GMT, 75176...@compuserve.com (William
Harris) wrote:
>In article <32A994...@connect.net>, hma...@connect.net says...
>>* The easiest way in is to cast levitate, and then levitate up
>>* to
>>* either
>>* a corner where two types of dungeon connect, or a sloped passage.
>
>But you need to be able to cast it. I am running a character who has at most
>36 mana. Not enough to cast levitate.
>--
>William Harris
>
I don't see how you can get through the game without the ability to
levitate. If you don't have the spell points now, you have 2 options.
If you have a high enough guild or temple rank, you can either make a
"levitate" potion or enchant an item to give you the additional spell
points you need.
Good luck,
ddj
Harrison Carter
On Wed Dec 4 15:30:14 1996, Dale Beaver pondered:
> I have a general question for the programmers out there, as
> one of the people that has experienced minimal troubles with DF. Is
> the falling into the void actually a 'clipping error'? The only times
> this has ever occured for me is at places where wall sections or
> dungeon sections joined. I've never fallen through the floor or the
> walls; the few times it has occured (by accident or deliberate
> attempt) has been where there is a sharp angle, such as a floor
> joining a wall, or the very steep steps in the very narrow dungeon
> section. Is the joining of discrete sections under control of the
> clipping routines, or does clipping apply only to surface integrity?
time ago:
Well, there's the clipping done to decide how much of an object you can see
through an open doorway or sticking out of the wall, and then there's the
object bounds-checking done to see when you are stopped by a surface (gotta
open the door first!) or not (the floor just ended, you are trying to walk
over a pit now). Very similar algorithms/code can be used for these, and
sometimes one makes the distinction, other times one just calls it all "clipping"
like I will here.
Yes, it has to do with the clipping routines, and when they are applied.
TES surfaces appear to be made up of finite regular polygons, and the clipping
routines test against those surfaces.
I notice that when one changes eye level by jumping or ducking, bounds
seem to be checked after the movement is made -- if you duck down, waddle
under a sloping roof or rock face, and stand up, you will often find your
head on the other side of the surface.
I suspect that when you are falling/jumping, the routine which decides when
you land on top of something treats you as a point -- making it easy to fall
through the fine cracks of "the giant stairs", joints between sections, etc.
The falling-off-an-edge routine provides characters/creatures with a fairly-
sized base all of which must cross the edge before one falls. That is a fine
playability improvement on other games I've seen. This feature does seem to
contribute to the stuck-on-the-edge-of-a-pit problem that some creatures have
if they get randomly placed near a pit's edge (or close enough to a wall/floor
seam) where they can't move off of that edge.
It is hard (but possible!) to do this stuff cleanly/right. I'm willing to
make allowances because of the other efforts into the game's world that
Bethesda has made...
- Harrison
(ps to the Bethesda folk:
The view of the dungeons from the void is kind of neat. Is that a side-
effect of how sight/light ray tracing is done, or is that a feature used in
a dungeon editor? It must be fun to play with the world-editing tool box
I imagine you have.)
Jerry Caveney
In <32b098a4...@news.whidbey.com> ban...@whidbey.net (D.D.
Johnston) writes:
>...
>I don't see how you can get through the game without the ability to
>levitate. If you don't have the spell points now, you have 2 options.
>If you have a high enough guild or temple rank, you can either make a
>"levitate" potion or enchant an item to give you the additional spell
>points you need.
>
>Good luck,
>
>ddj
Or get level for item maker and enchant a bracelet with levitate (cast
when used); they last almost forever.
Jerry
William Harris
In article <583r13$s...@jackson.ind.net>, gfis...@indyvax.iupui.edu says...
> Another chance here to comment on how well my dungeon-mapping method
>works. I am never lost and I always find my quest target. The huge
>dungeons do not frustrate me at all. (e-mail me for more info on my
>method)
For what it's worth, huge dungeons, per se, don't frustrate me; I have a method
and have (so far) always found my quest object, so far. What frustrates me
about huge dungeons is all the time I have to waste to get to the damned quest
objects. Without a hint book, I don't see how you can optimize the "do I go
left or do I go right" choice at the dungeon intersections.
For what it's worth, patch 191 hasn't crashed on me yet. Use patch 191, and go
from there.
--
William Harris
Roger Musson
[ abbreviated ]
>>Each type of block has an "internal
>>connectedness" which
>>determines which sides can lead to which other sides. For example, a
>>type A block might connect the east side to the south side, and the
>>west side to the north side. A type B block might connect the west to
>>the south, and the north to the east. It is straightforward to write
>>a program that adds blocks to sides until the graph of where you can
>>get to is "closed" in the sense that, if you enter in an "appropriate"
>>spot, you will never encounter a void door. For example, the 2x2
>>dungeon composed of:
>>
>>AB
>>BA
>>
>>will have an internal structure with a closed loop that goes through
>>all 4 blocks, plus 4 completely separate "void chunks" in the corners
>>that go from nowhere to nowhere. Note that the layout is
>>2-dimensional; if you look at the little yellow "block map" on the
>>side of Daggerfall's automap screen, there is only one layer of
>>blocks. They only connect directions E, S, N, and W, not Up and
>>Down.
Interesting - does this mean that the dungeons are all one block thick? I
assumed that the block map was just a top down view on a 3D array of blocks.
Roger Musson
r.mu...@bgs.ac.uk
Ramses
[75176...@compuserve.com (William Harris)]:
>In article <583r13$s...@jackson.ind.net>, gfis...@indyvax.iupui.edu says...
>> Another chance here to comment on how well my dungeon-mapping method
>>works. I am never lost and I always find my quest target. The huge
>>dungeons do not frustrate me at all. (e-mail me for more info on my
>>method)
>
>For what it's worth, huge dungeons, per se, don't frustrate me; I have a method
>and have (so far) always found my quest object, so far. What frustrates me
>about huge dungeons is all the time I have to waste to get to the damned quest
>objects. Without a hint book, I don't see how you can optimize the "do I go
>left or do I go right" choice at the dungeon intersections.
And it certainly helps to set an anchor outside the dungeon, or next
to the one giving you the quest. Saves _a lot_ of backtracking...
Ramses
The Drivel Master!
On Fri, 13 Dec 1996 14:00:54 GMT, ram...@usa.net (Ramses) wrote:
>[75176...@compuserve.com (William Harris)]:
>
>>In article <583r13$s...@jackson.ind.net>, gfis...@indyvax.iupui.edu says...
>>> Another chance here to comment on how well my dungeon-mapping method
>>>works. I am never lost and I always find my quest target. The huge
>>>dungeons do not frustrate me at all. (e-mail me for more info on my
>>>method)
I drop "junk items" to mark passages I've already explored. Would
appreciate e-mail for any other mapping hints.
>>
>>For what it's worth, huge dungeons, per se, don't frustrate me; I have a method
>>and have (so far) always found my quest object, so far. What frustrates me
>>about huge dungeons is all the time I have to waste to get to the damned quest
>>objects. Without a hint book, I don't see how you can optimize the "do I go
>>left or do I go right" choice at the dungeon intersections.
>
>And it certainly helps to set an anchor outside the dungeon, or next
>to the one giving you the quest. Saves _a lot_ of backtracking...
>
>Ramses
The Drivel Master! (*** Doorways To Drivel ***)
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/3891/index.html
I have nothing better to do than to do nothing better!
(And I'm also pretty good at procrastinating!)
G. Fischer
>75176...@compuserve.com (William Harris) wrote:
>>In article <583r13$s...@jackson.ind.net>, gfis...@indyvax.iupui.edu says...
>> Another chance here to comment on how well my dungeon-mapping method
>>works. I am never lost and I always find my quest target. The huge
>>dungeons do not frustrate me at all. (e-mail me for more info on my
>>method)
>For what it's worth, huge dungeons, per se, don't frustrate me; I have a method
>and have (so far) always found my quest object, so far. What frustrates me
>about huge dungeons is all the time I have to waste to get to the damned quest
>objects. Without a hint book, I don't see how you can optimize the "do I go
>left or do I go right" choice at the dungeon intersections.
>For what it's worth, patch 191 hasn't crashed on me yet. Use patch 191, and go
>from there.
>--
>William Harris
I don't quite understand why you consider the time you spend in
dungeons a "waste". Is that not a primary and essential part of most
fantasy rpg's - particularily this one? This game is one of a *very
few* that I feel I have gotten my money's worth, actually, *more* than
my money's worth. If quest targets were so easy to find in tiny
dungeons the size of the graveyards and crypts, I would have finished
the game a week after I bought it. I am now going on three months of
playing - and am not bored yet.
Many interesting things have happened which I believe are a result of
not rushing through. I don't panic like many have when I don't get a
main quest notification I just take my time, and things come to me
in turn. It is so much more enjoyable this way.
To each his own.
Richard Bukowski
In article <e_rmwm.53...@va.nmh.ac.uk>,
Roger Musson <e_r...@va.nmh.ac.uk> wrote:
>Interesting - does this mean that the dungeons are all one block thick? I
>assumed that the block map was just a top down view on a 3D array of blocks.
Yep. The dungeons are, in fact, one block thick. And there are
several hints that this is true:
1. the little yellow inset map in the corner of the big map always
shows your entry block (in green) and the block you're currently in
(in red). If there were stacked blocks, you would not in general be
able to see both, since the green or red would be "under" some other
block which was yellow. But, you can always see both, and there is no
provision for going 3D with the inset map. The reason for this is
that you don't need to go 3D with the inset map, as the block
structure is 2D.
2. If you, like me, have played this game way too much, :) you have
become familiar with all the blocks that they use. Have you ever seen
a familiar block set "over" another familiar block? I never have.
The over/under relationships are _always_ the same. This is due to
the fact that the block set is 2D.
Richard Bukowski
In article <58q77i$53n$1...@pad-thai.cam.ov.com>,
>time ago:
Speaking as a current PhD researcher in computer graphics and virtual
environments (mine is bigger than yours, thpbbbt!! :) :),
> I notice that when one changes eye level by jumping or ducking, bounds
>seem to be checked after the movement is made -- if you duck down, waddle
>under a sloping roof or rock face, and stand up, you will often find your
>head on the other side of the surface.
Yes, and this is inexcusable on the part of the Bethesda graphics
programmers. You _never_ just "warp" the user's eyepoint to a new
location when you move it (that is, just change the coordinates
of the eye without considering what's in between the old coordinates
and the new ones); at least, you never do it when you want to avoid
just these kinds of problems. What they should have done is project a
ray from the old eyepoint to the new one and seen if that ray hits
something; if it does, either disallow the motion or limit it to the
extent of the ray's free path. What they did is the "quick and cheap"
method, and the result is people losing games when they fall
into the void.
> I suspect that when you are falling/jumping, the routine which decides when
>you land on top of something treats you as a point -- making it easy to fall
>through the fine cracks of "the giant stairs", joints between
sections, etc.
> The falling-off-an-edge routine provides characters/creatures with a fairly-
>sized base all of which must cross the edge before one falls. That is a fine
>playability improvement on other games I've seen. This feature does seem to
>contribute to the stuck-on-the-edge-of-a-pit problem that some creatures have
>if they get randomly placed near a pit's edge (or close enough to a wall/floor
>seam) where they can't move off of that edge.
The effective user is always just a point; the eyepoint, the point
which is the focal point of the view projection for rendering the
screen. There are relatively straightforward ways to modify your code
that checks if the user's eye is sitting on a valid polygon such that
the user doesn't fall through cracks in the world. We use these
techniques in our virtual environment, and in the last 5 years or so
nobody has ever fallen through a crack in one of our hallways. I'd be
happy to write a letter to Bethesda's programmers and tell them how to
do it, if I thought it would do any good. (For you nerds out there,
the problem is numerical instability in the bounds checking at the
edges of the polygons. If you hit the edge of a crack between polys
"just right" you can incorrectly determine that the eye doesn't hit
either wing of the edge, and you sail right through.)
> It is hard (but possible!) to do this stuff cleanly/right. I'm willing to
>make allowances because of the other efforts into the game's world that
>Bethesda has made...
Some of it isn't even hard; that's the frustrating part. The eyepoint
warping in the ducking code is trivial to do right, but even more
trivial to do wrong, and they seemed to pick the latter. The
falling-through-cracks bit is more tricky, but still not too bad.
> - Harrison
>
>(ps to the Bethesda folk:
> The view of the dungeons from the void is kind of neat. Is that a side-
>effect of how sight/light ray tracing is done, or is that a feature used in
>a dungeon editor? It must be fun to play with the world-editing tool box
>I imagine you have.)
The view from both the void and from the 3D automap are what you might
call a "stupid graphics trick" :). It's just an artifact of an
algorithm called "backface culling" that is used to speed up 3D
rendering. When you use backface culling, you need an object that has
a "right" side and a "wrong" side, such that your user will never look
at it from the "wrong" side. The dungeon hallways are tunnels where
inside the tunnel is the right side, and outside is the wrong side.
If you look at it from the right side, it looks right. If you look at
it from the wrong side, you can see right through the nearer faces
(because they get culled away) to the further faces, whose "right"
sides are facing you. As you move, which faces are "near" and "far"
change, so different faces will appear and disappear as you look from
different angles. I thought this was a rather clever way of taking
advantage of what is, technically, using an algorithm incorrectly. :)
87osca...@gmail.com
> Can't any of you wait until something is fixed before buying it? I
> heard so many reports of bugs in the first game (Arena) that I never
> bought it. People go out and buy this stuff like the first day when it
> is totally unfinished. I guess someone has to so I know better. The
> thing I can't figure out is how game magazines are giving it like 83
> percent or above. I'd say based upon what I see hear it pretty much
> bites... (I don't want to spend 2-10 hours in a dungeon killing
> rats.... then bump into some mega vampire guy all of a sudden)
> Well, after your beta testing you paid like 40 bucks to do is
> over.. maybe I'll get it then with patch 369 final-hopefully for like
> 16 bucks in a bargain bin.
> Based upond sales of this game, Bethesda will release number III
> with a bunch of bugs also. They do it because they know they can get
> away with it.
>
> Dave
Let's be honest, the majority of bugs in it are now fixed completely. Anyway, a few bugs doesn't matter for such an amazing game for the time.
Rin Stowleigh
wrote:
Couldn't he have kept a lid on it for 22 years or however long it took
them to get it working properly?
87osca...@gmail.com
Trumpcard
> Can't any of you wait until something is fixed before buying it? I
> heard so many reports of bugs in the first game (Arena) that I never
> bought it. People go out and buy this stuff like the first day when it
> is totally unfinished. I guess someone has to so I know better. The
> thing I can't figure out is how game magazines are giving it like 83
> percent or above. I'd say based upon what I see hear it pretty much
> bites... (I don't want to spend 2-10 hours in a dungeon killing
> rats.... then bump into some mega vampire guy all of a sudden)
> Well, after your beta testing you paid like 40 bucks to do is
> over.. maybe I'll get it then with patch 369 final-hopefully for like
> 16 bucks in a bargain bin.
> Based upond sales of this game, Bethesda will release number III
> with a bunch of bugs also. They do it because they know they can get
> away with it.
>
> Dave
Rin Stowleigh
Yes but I'm not one to pass up a badgering opportunity :)
Spalls Hurgenson
bug-free, but Daggerfall was an absolute mess - often to the point of
being unplayable and unfinishable - on release. You can't say that
about Morrowind, Oblivion or Skyrim. You might face the occassional
crash-to-desktop or a quest might be screwed up, but at least you
could finish the game without resorting to cheat codes!
That said, it was never the bugs that killed my interest in
Daggerfall. It was the huge, characterless world. Oh sure, the game
had size but - because it was all procedurally generated - all that
space was filled with uninteresting and repetitive content. I didn't
so much mind the wilderness (especially since you could quick-travel
past most of it) but the cities were just the worst. I was really
surprised that there was an Elder Scrolls 3, because Daggerfall - for
all its attempts at innovation - was such an awful experience.
Fortunately, Bethesda saw the light and switched over to hand-created
content for the latter games.
But the bugs were a concern. The first time I played, I fell through
the floor of the starting dungeon, and things didn't get much better
from there. I persevered, but it didn't make the game any more
enjoyable.
Zaghadka
87osca...@gmail.com wrote:
>My god, someone responded. I was joking, to be honest. The original poster wasn't wrong, anyway, they did 'just keep making them'.
--
Zag
No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten
Dimensional Traveler
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Xocyll
entrails of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs
say:
Morrowind had a massive problem at release, the copy protection
(SafeDisc) made _CONSTANT_ calls to the disc and lagged systems so badly
the game was unplayable.
To the point that Bethesda quickly released a patch that completely
removed the copy protection.
The pirated version of course never had the problem.
>That said, it was never the bugs that killed my interest in
>Daggerfall. It was the huge, characterless world. Oh sure, the game
>had size but - because it was all procedurally generated - all that
>space was filled with uninteresting and repetitive content. I didn't
>so much mind the wilderness (especially since you could quick-travel
>past most of it) but the cities were just the worst. I was really
>surprised that there was an Elder Scrolls 3, because Daggerfall - for
>all its attempts at innovation - was such an awful experience.
>Fortunately, Bethesda saw the light and switched over to hand-created
>content for the latter games.
>
>But the bugs were a concern. The first time I played, I fell through
>the floor of the starting dungeon, and things didn't get much better
>from there. I persevered, but it didn't make the game any more
>enjoyable.
setting up areas that could not be gotten to at all.
Still, it's is probably still my vote for greatest game of all time.
It did not handhold you, it gave you so many, many options for character
builds, and it was huge, giving you the sense that you are just one of
many people in a world, instead of the usual "ALL-TIME SUPERSTAR HERO
KNOWN BY EVERYONE YOU MEET" of all too many games since then.
Skyrim by comparison is some kids playing in the backyard, it is so damn
tiny, you can literally run across the entire _COUNTRY_ in minutes.
And for all the "handcrafted" dungeons, they sure all seemed very, very
similar in Morrowind, and the oblivion gates in Oblivion were all the
same and mind numbingly tedious.
Now add in all the things that went away, and I fully expect ES5 or 6 to
end up in 2d, they're losing so much depth.
Everyone picks locks in Skyrim, no matter what "class" you are, you pick
locks, while in Daggerfall, thief types picked locks, magic users used
spells and warriors bashed things open.
You could climb walls to enter cities, and climb up on houses to escape
guards - who chased you and tried to kill you they didn't just tell you
to stop and YOU AUTO-STOPPED and had to make a choice to run or flee,
which gave you an instant bounty that the ENTIRE PLANET instantly knows
about, even though they were nowhere near you and could not have caught
you or even identified you.
You could steal stuff and even sell it back to the guy you stole it from
in Daggerfall - compare that to Morrowind, where you stole an item and
now all items of that type are forever flagged as stolen to the guy you
stole one of them from.
Yeah, Daggerfall had issues, but it did so many things exactly right,
and is pretty much the last game to do so.
Every Elder Scrolls game since has been dumbed down and lost features
like class specific skills, spell crafting, stats.
It's being dumbed down into a generic console game, where everything
will get chosen for you, because you don't get to make any decisions,
not even your character's name - that makes it too hard for them to tell
a story and do full voice acting of your character.
Which lets face it, isn't really yours.
That's not role playing to me, that's playing a role someone else wrote,
acting. No imagination required or even permitted, just control the
character in QTE's and fights and sit back and watch the cutscenes, most
of the rest of the time. NO THANKS!
Xocyll
--
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr