Is Wizardry 8 really THAT good?
markkemp
things about this game (plus the MANY posts here). Worth pursuing?
mark...@bigpond.net.au
[Also via Windows Messenger]
'What?'
[SCSA]
Amarok
wrote:
Playing for one week now. I don't go to bed before 4 am since I
started playing (ok, gf coming back tomorrow, so that has to
change...). I didn't stay that long awake for a game since... PST, if
at all.
Anyway, my observations so far:
- I'm playing at the hardest difficult level and the battles are just
perfect. Some I lose, some I win. There are only a very few battles
here and there which are really impossible, but then I just avoid them
(thats possible in most cases with a good scouting skill). I don't
remember the last time that I played a game with constantly so
challenging battles. They have really depth. You even have to sneak
arround and take advantage of the battle field. Never walk in the
middle of a road if some monsters are nearby or you will be quickly
surroundered. On the other hand, sometimes there are too many maybe,
especially when you just want to figure something out and you are
again interrupted by some roaming monsters. If you rest less, they
respawn significant less. Otherwise there are only something like 4
groups of monsters roaming around at the same time in one outside area
(beside fix monsters of course).
- story: the overall plot is IMO very interesting and VERY non-linear.
Some different races exist on the planet which have partly different
goals. You can join some, betray them and so on. Its really up to you
and I like that very much. Having said that, its not comparable to PST
where you were reading all the time. However, due to the fact, that
its so non-linear, its quite motivating and no standard-story / plot.
- monsters are really great. They are excellent animated (you can play
in almost full 3D, thats sometimes really scary!!). The sound of the
monsters is as well top notch. There are very different monsters (some
are able to swallow you and you have to kill them in order to get
your buddy back). However, the graphic engine itself is average, but
still nice and with several very unique environments.
IMO someone can only complain about 2 things: sometimes you wish to
have a few battles less (hey, don't worry, there aren't soooooooo much
after all) and more important: the game doesn't take you at your hand.
So you can really go anywhere and you have to read carefully the text.
Its not always really obviously what to do next or how to solve a
"riddle" (sometimes you even don't realize that there is a riddle at
all lol). Especially since there is no rule how to treat the different
races on the planet.The game offers several different endings.
There is so much to explore and plenty of extra stuff you can, but you
don't have to do / solve.
With PST the best RPG I played for the last 7 years or so. They are
totally different, but I love them both very much.
Amarok
Guillaume Jacques
Guill
"markkemp" <mark...@bigpond.net.au> a écrit dans le message news:
%OtX7.20903$wD1.1...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Joe V3838
the other wiz games made, but Wiz 8 is a real winner and I'm surprised no
one wanted to publish such a fine game.......
joe
"markkemp" <mark...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
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Kevin
markkemp wrote:
It really is that good, its a great game all around.
Cabel Blacke
"markkemp" <mark...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:%OtX7.20903$wD1.1...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
one out there. Solid (and highly addictive) character development, great
combat mechanics (best yet in a turn-based, first-person game), and an
entertaining narrative with a nice mixture of sci-fi and fantasy (think
Return of the Jedi, with space aliens colliding with spear-weilding
natives). My only real complaint is that the game is HARD in the beginning.
But after you hit your stride and grow accustomed to the combat engine (and
the tactics: keep party's back to wall, use crowd control spells, monitor
formation, and run away when necessary), things get easier. About
three-quarters of the way through the game you start to feel like invincible
demi-gods; then you head to an area you haven't been before and become
humbled all over again. But that's the nature of these types of games after
all... ;)
There is a lot of fun to be had in this game. Since I picked it up, I
haven't been able to play anything else....including Civ 3. That says a lot
for the overall quality of the game.
--CB
adam connor
>My taste runs more to the NG style of CRPG, but I keep reading very good
>things about this game (plus the MANY posts here). Worth pursuing?
Yes. It is reasonably challenging (but by no means impossible) if you
play at "normal". The plot is interesting. The classes are not
perfectly balanced but show enough diversity to be interesting. Each
piece is only B+/A-. But the game is more than the sum of its parts;
Wizardry 8 is fantastic.
This is the best RPG since Torment. It's very different, though -- the
writing isn't on the same level as Torment; it's more of a "strategy
RPG". I keep going back and trying out different parties, just to see
how they'll play. Very few CRPGs have been both interesting and
flexible enough for me to bother with that (Fallout might have been
the last).
Have you ever played any of the Might and Magic games (e.g., M&M 6-8)?
It's like that... but better. Much better.
For my money, it's game of the year. What a bummer that Sir Tech isn't
going to be producing any more...
My $0.02.
Lin Parkh
"Joe V3838" <jo...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:MtHX7.8180$yi.8...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Paul Coe Clark III
satisfying for me since Bard's Tale games in the Elder Days.
Best graphics engine in a CRPG so far (am running at 1280x1024 on a middlin'
machine just fine) - excepting Vampire etc., which was a wasted engine since
you spent all your time looking at the ground.
I'm hooked. My only fear is that a) It will be too short and/or b) SirTech
won't produce any more of this sort of game.
BTW, this game answers the "W&W was the REAL Wiz8 because D.W. Bradley did
it" argument. It wasn't. I played it through to the end, and enjoyed it,
but Wiz8 is a masterpiece by comparison.
Yrs,
Paul Coe
"adam connor" <ad...@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:8ZgvPKu2EeApgc...@4ax.com...
Joe V3838
story, good npc speech, good sound/music, npc don't get stuck in
walls/floors, graphics are decent, spells look cool, each profession has
it's strength/weakness and each profession is useful. That's just off the
top of my head, hope it helps.........
The only complaint I have with wiz 8 is the map is slow to load and move
around, and the inventory control could be better..........
good luck
joe
"Lin Parkh" <lpa...@home.com> wrote in message
news:a0oimj$t19$1...@slb3.atl.mindspring.net...
Zardoz
"Paul Coe Clark III" <pau...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:a0omd1$mh1$1...@slb0.atl.mindspring.net...
> Best RPG in years for me. Combat system particularly near-perfect - most
> satisfying for me since Bard's Tale games in the Elder Days.
Yep, this is the one *big* thing that sets apart Wiz8 from the more recent
RPG games for me. The combat system is a true hardcore RPG'ers combat system
and not some lame realtime (although pausable) system like the BG series
has. And I especially hate the Diablo games, nothing but a click fest
dungeon hack (sorry, but that's my opinion). If you want a real RPG then
this is the one to get.
simon.appleton1
just doesn't do much for me. I'm stopping - not sure I'll be back. I got
more fun out of Wizards and Warriors - it had more atmosphere (the monsters
& dungeons were scary, rather than quirky/quaint) and narrative drive (ie
linearity?). But I much prefer the BG2/FO2 style games with more quests and
story. Wiz8 remined me of POR2 - great combat/character generation, dull
game.
Simon
markkemp
news:3C3191B6...@ntlworld.com...
>
> What is NG style?
Sorry, it was a typo - 'BG style' was what I meant to write.
Matt Fox-Wilson
news:z62Y7.685$35.1...@news.eol.ca...
> <...>
> If you want a real RPG then this is the one to get.
Spoilers ahead...
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I haven't been able to get in to the feel of the game because it just hasn't
felt like I can take on a 'role'. I've only found a couple of quests (and
one of those was a bank robbery...), I've felt that there's not much to do
outside the main plot, I haven't felt encouraged to explore because it seems
so dangerous when I do, and I've been feeling like the game is forcing me in
to a specific character type (eg. Bank Robber :).
As an example, in the T'Rang base I was expecting to meet with Z'Ant, having
been told that he was expecting me, but then had to pick locks on their
doors to get an item to let me in to see him? I resorted to a walkthrough at
that point, and if I hadn't I never would have picked the locks, figuring
that they'd get annoyed with me if I stole things, and not being a thief-y
type in most of these games.
I just feel like I'm being forced down a certain path, and that I'm not
being given the chance to play a role at all, so I've been quite
disappointed with it. The combat system isn't really my thing either (I'd
love to be able to surround my opponents the way they surround me... :), but
that's not really what's stopped me playing it. Visually, technically, and
usability-wise it's a superb game, and the story is interesting, I've just
not been immersed in it because I feel like I'm just guiding the characters
through someone else's personal interaction style with the game world.
- Matt Fox-Wilson.
Olaf
news:%OtX7.20903$wD1.1...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> things about this game (plus the MANY posts here). Worth pursuing?
NG is what?
I am liking Wiz8 a lot, and I will add my 2cp to what everyone else is
saying.
I liked Wiz7, in that I finished it. I do not generally like the mixing of
sci-fi and high fantasy. That is still the case in Wiz8, however, the way
its presented (right from the start) makes things acceptable for me.
The graphics are ok. The monsters look really good. The items and terrain
look pretty bad.
Sounds are are ok. The effects get repetitive, and so do the things your
guys say most of the time. Some of their location/encounter specific
dialogue is great though.
Music. I hate ingame music and I turn it off straight away, almost no
matter what.
Interface. Sort of clunky. Learn the hotkeys quick. You have to cast A
LOT in order to maximize your caster efficiency (skills raise with usage,
modified by int score) and so trying to cast each round in combat can be
tedious.
Difficulty level. I think this game is hard. The normal setting will most
likely kick your ass in the beginning. Good or bad depends on who you are I
guess. I personally get annoyed at some of the 'random' death squad type
encounters. Also, some of the mobs are laughably over or under conned.
Character system. This rocks. There are so many classes and skills to
play with. Makes the game IMO.
Story/Plot. Like I said, I dont generally like the sci-fi/fantasy
sandwich, but they did a good job here. You pretty much know what you need
to do to advance the plot, but your hand is very rarely forced.
Automap. Sucks like all hell. On my athlon 1900+ w/512 RAM it can take 20
seconds to display in certain zones. Its almost never as fast as it should
be. NFI why.
Gameplay. Addicting. There are always new spells and items to mess with.
Different character combinations and party building strategies. The
setting changes fairly frequently so you dont get bored with the current
look and feel too often.
This game is good, and if you like CRPGs you should buy it.
olaf
Brian Rauchfuss - PCD
I can think of only one place where crime is required - in all other cases it
is optional.
>As an example, in the T'Rang base I was expecting to meet with Z'Ant, having
>been told that he was expecting me, but then had to pick locks on their
>doors to get an item to let me in to see him? I resorted to a walkthrough at
>that point, and if I hadn't I never would have picked the locks, figuring
>that they'd get annoyed with me if I stole things, and not being a thief-y
>type in most of these games.
You can actually see Z'Ant without doing any lock-picking. (This is probably
what he would prefer too!) If you go up to Marten's Bluff, there is a place
where two huge hydrallic smashers are poised to smush anything between them.
If you stand on the plate right between them you will not be smushed but will
find it an elevator to the T'Rang area. (I wonder if you are only smushed if
you are an enemy of the T'Rang?) Go to the NW corner of the room you enter
and you will find that you can talk to Z'Ant through a window.
Smokefoot
Brian Rauchfuss - PCD
Olaf <ol...@houston.rr.com> wrote:
>Automap. Sucks like all hell. On my athlon 1900+ w/512 RAM it can take 20
>seconds to display in certain zones. Its almost never as fast as it should
>be. NFI why.
Try going into the setup utility and changing to OpenGL. This make a dramatic
difference in the Automap speed for me.
Smokefoot
Olaf
olaf
Brian Rauchfuss - PCD <brau...@pcocd2.fm.intel.com> wrote in message
news:a0vqmm$g...@news.or.intel.com...
Sarah Ettritch
Wiz8
> just doesn't do much for me. I'm stopping - not sure I'll be back. I got
> more fun out of Wizards and Warriors - it had more atmosphere (the
monsters
> & dungeons were scary, rather than quirky/quaint) and narrative drive (ie
> linearity?). But I much prefer the BG2/FO2 style games with more quests
and
> story. Wiz8 remined me of POR2 - great combat/character generation, dull
> game.
> Simon
I also stopped playing Wiz8 after visiting and partially completing Arnika,
Trynton, Marten's Bluff, Mount Gigas, and the mines. I realized I was
becoming quite disillusioned with the game. I can't put my finger on any
one specific reason... I just wasn't having fun, which to me is the point of
playing. I did find the story weak and would have liked more NPC
interaction/quests.
I have to disagree with you when you say "great combat". I've read a lot
about the great tactical combat in Wiz8 but I found it frustrating. The
system isn't all that balanced when members of my party cannot move
individually, but my opponents can. Having to back myself up against a
surface to handle monsters which were often a greater level than I, is
clumsy. Apparently, my two fighters were using weapons as short as
toothpicks because they often "couldn't reach", even though they were
standing directly in front of an opponent. On the other hand, my two
valkyries must have been fighting with 20 ft weapons because they often
seemed able to hit monsters who were quite a way off in the distance. I
particularly remember one incident where my fighters (in front) couldn't
reach, but some type of crab directly in front of them managed to hit my
cleric, who was in the center of the formation - and did this without using
a ranged attack - must have had elastic pincers. Which brings me to the
third aspect I found frustrating - too many enemies had ranged attacks with
serious effects, which I view as unlimited free spells. As the game
progressed, my party would take most of its damage attempting to move within
range of the hoards while they stood in a line a fair distance away pounding
my party with ranged attacks. Yes, you could use protective spells but my
point is that there should have been more of a balance between melee and
ranged opponents. I also found combat encounters too frequent, with no
chance to rest, and in general I found the monster group(s) to be a level or
two or three above where my characters were - I rarely encountered a group
less than or equal to my party level except in the very beginning.
Something definitely broken there IMO. This was with search mode on and
off.
I can remember in the mines area I fought about 3 swarms of wasps in rapid
succession, moving about 3 inches between each encounter, then fought
androids, then as I dragged my weary party another 3 inches, encountered
another swarm of wasps and two groups of bats - after defeating them, I
attempted to rest but was woken by another swarm of wasps. It was about
this point that several games waiting unopened on my desk started to appear
very attractive, and shortly thereafter Wiz8 was put on the back burner. I
may return to it later when there's a drought of releases I'm interested in.
I liked my party and it was working for me despite the combat limitations,
but the game simply lost its charm as I progressed through it.
I really gave this game a chance and wanted to like it - even started over
several times until I found a party I really liked - but it just didn't do
it for me. This is just my opinion, as I realize others loved it. But for
me, it definitely was not game of the year or CRPG of the year (to me, there
is no CRPG of the year this year - the crop was very disappointing - I'm an
avid CRPG fan but had more fun with action games in 2001 - never thought I'd
say that).
Sarah.
Juris Baidins
Sarah Ettritch <ettr...@rogers.com> wrote:
>... I just wasn't having fun, which to me is the point of playing.
Agreed, if it is not fun for you do not waste time playing.
But there are a few things in your post that I am going to dispute.
>Apparently, my two fighters were using weapons as short as toothpicks
> [and]
>valkyries must have been fighting with 20 ft weapons because they often
The Valkyries probably had pole weapons (spears or halberds) which allow
attacks out to the extended range in combat (W8 has close, extended, thrown
and long as combat distance categories), while the fighters had close
weapons like swords. There are times when the monsters seem closer than
they are and you need to right click on the specific opponent to find the
true distance.
The crab is like your Valkyries. The claws extend out beyond the body and
it can reach out and hit you while your close ranged fighters cannot hit.
Though how it reaches INTO the party, when my pole armed types cannot
reach past the first rank of monsters remains something that needs fixing.
>third aspect I found frustrating - too many enemies had ranged attacks with
>serious effects, which I view as unlimited free spells. As the game
>progressed, my party would take most of its damage attempting to move within
>range of the hoards while they stood in a line a fair distance away pounding
>my party with ranged attacks.
This seems to be something we will disagree on.
Some protective spells are just simply required: missile shield to deal
with the blizzards of thorns (those damn plants) and acidic spit (from
seekers, insects and what have you), magic screen for the spells and
spell like effects (to raise your resistance to the various styles of
magic attack) and armorplate.
If they can shoot thorns at you, shoot back with arrows and fireballs.
If they can toss clouds at you, retaliate with multiple cone spells and
powders (particularly devil dust?, produces a nice tornado). If they
surround you, retaliate with fireball (spells cannot hurt those friendly
to you), cloud spells and flash powder/flash spells.
>point is that there should have been more of a balance between melee and
>ranged opponents. I also found combat encounters too frequent, with no
>chance to rest, and in general I found the monster group(s) to be a level or
>two or three above where my characters were - I rarely encountered a group
>less than or equal to my party level except in the very beginning.
>Something definitely broken there IMO. This was with search mode on and off.
OTOH, this produces some exciting and challenging battles/situations and
takes some serious planning to get out of, with the occasional reload.
Basically buy food (heal wounds, regain stamina), magic nectar and other
restorative potions. Try to get to your destination withou camping.
>I can remember in the mines area I fought about 3 swarms of wasps in rapid
>succession, moving about 3 inches between each encounter, then fought
>androids, then as I dragged my weary party another 3 inches, encountered
>another swarm of wasps and two groups of bats - after defeating them, I
>attempted to rest but was woken by another swarm of wasps. It was about
Quaff some magic nectar potions. By the time a party gets to the mines,
there have been many opportunities to find/buy them.
--
Juris Baidins
bai...@udel.edu
Memnoch
Major snipped here, sorry!
>In article <KU7Z7.2320$h2c...@news2.bloor.is>,
>Sarah Ettritch <ettr...@rogers.com> wrote:
>>... I just wasn't having fun, which to me is the point of playing.
>>third aspect I found frustrating - too many enemies had ranged attacks with
>>serious effects, which I view as unlimited free spells. As the game
>>progressed, my party would take most of its damage attempting to move within
>>range of the hoards while they stood in a line a fair distance away pounding
>>my party with ranged attacks.
>
>This seems to be something we will disagree on.
>
A really good way of closing range without taking damage is to hide behind an
obstacle, be it a tree, rock, building, pillar or whatever. As long as they
can't see you and combat hasn't begun it will work. Then hit the combat
button.Then hit the Run button. Then you run towards them and then the real
combat starts. It's like a free turn. I try not to take any serious monsters
on without this. In most cases you can start with all your characters in melee
range if the group is large enough.
Graeme Lindsell
news:KU7Z7.2320$h2c...@news2.bloor.is:
> I also stopped playing Wiz8 after visiting and partially completing
> Arnika, Trynton, Marten's Bluff, Mount Gigas, and the mines. I
> realized I was becoming quite disillusioned with the game. I can't put
> my finger on any one specific reason... I just wasn't having fun, which
> to me is the point of playing. I did find the story weak and would
> have liked more NPC interaction/quests.
>
I reached this point at roughly the same time you did, but for want of
anything else new to play at the time I kept going. I started to enjoy
myself again after a while.
I treated the game as a pure exercise in combat and character improvement.
The storyline was trivial and the puzzles annoying (I've never ben much
of a puzzle fan) but it was fun as an exercise in character improvment.
There was some strategy involved in the combat, particularly in the
"Getting RFS-81 into melee range" department, but overall combat had a few
big big problems:
i) There was too damn much of it, especially in the wilderness areas.
ii)It managed to make combat boring - I spent most of the time watching the
enemies act. Might and Magic dealt with turn-based combat better IMO. I
often gave my orders, pressed the "go" button and went to do something else:
make a cup of tea, go to the men's room, wash the car, learn a new language
etc etc.
But I still managed to have fun, and I've started again with more experience
of how to enjoy combats, and how to get RFS-81 as early as possible...
> I can remember in the mines area I fought about 3 swarms of wasps in
> rapid succession, moving about 3 inches between each encounter, then
> fought androids, then as I dragged my weary party another 3 inches,
> encountered another swarm of wasps and two groups of bats - after
> defeating them, I attempted to rest but was woken by another swarm of
> wasps.
Ah, those are the terrible barriers put in the way of getting RFS-81,
the only RPC worth getting...
> loved it. But for me, it definitely was not game of the year or CRPG
> of the year (to me, there is no CRPG of the year this year - the crop
> was very disappointing -
I agree about that. If I have to make a choice though, I'd choose
Wiz 8 as CRPG of the year. Look at the competition:
Summoner: "Let's see how many times can make the player through the same
bloody sewers again" Story wasn't bad, with a couple of nice twists. I never
finished, since it looked like I'd have to go through those bloody sewers
yet again to get to the final battle.
Arcanum: "Let's offer the players great choices of how to imporve their
character, and make almost of them a hell to play" Story was OK, but not
great.
Anachronox: "Let's give them half a story." It was a damn good half a story,
though. I didn't like the combat system much.
Baldur's Gate,: Throne of Bhall: "Let's spoil the memory of BG2 with a pure
combat fest" As the end of the BG story, it didn't do much for me. The final
battle looked like tedium to me, so again I never bothered.
POR2: "Let's destroy those hard-drives" I never played POR2, since I
treasure my hard drive, but the reviews weren't exactly glowing.
Other games I haven't played: Gorusul, Gothic, Evil Islands. Does anyone
want to chime in supporting them? Gothic seems to be getting some good
comments here.
Against the games I played, Wizardy 8 stacks up pretty well. Compared with
them, I think it's the game of the year. I'd prefer to pick "No Award"
though. Like you, I think 2001 didn't have any great CRPGs.
Now, if Wiz 8 had been facing Torment, or BG2, or Deus Ex, or Fallout 1 or
2, or even Might and Magic 7 (my favourite of M&M 6 through 8), I wouldn't
give it my vote.
All IMO, of course.
ne...@andreasmattern.mailshell.com
> The crab is like your Valkyries. The claws extend out beyond the body and
> it can reach out and hit you while your close ranged fighters cannot hit.
> Though how it reaches INTO the party, when my pole armed types cannot
> reach past the first rank of monsters remains something that needs fixing.
I´ve had this too but for me it wasn´t directly in front (don´t confuse
where you´re looking and where you´re facing! ;) ) but just at the corner
between front and side zone. Noone on that flank and then they can reach
your center zone even from extended range.
>>third aspect I found frustrating - too many enemies had ranged attacks with
>>serious effects, which I view as unlimited free spells. As the game
>>progressed, my party would take most of its damage attempting to move within
>>range of the hoards while they stood in a line a fair distance away pounding
>>my party with ranged attacks.
> This seems to be something we will disagree on.
Yup, and wait till you meet those monsters that *really* have unlimited
spells! ;) I just ran into some geomancers at long range while fighting
savant troopers, ouch... ;)
> Some protective spells are just simply required: missile shield to deal
> with the blizzards of thorns (those damn plants) and acidic spit (from
> seekers, insects and what have you), magic screen for the spells and
> spell like effects (to raise your resistance to the various styles of
> magic attack) and armorplate.
Yup again, some stuff you just need. Missile shield is definetely among
them.
> If they can shoot thorns at you, shoot back with arrows and fireballs.
> If they can toss clouds at you, retaliate with multiple cone spells and
> powders (particularly devil dust?, produces a nice tornado). If they
> surround you, retaliate with fireball (spells cannot hurt those friendly
> to you), cloud spells and flash powder/flash spells.
I found the best tactic with enemies as those pesky plants is to use one
round of disabling spells: Noxious fumes, blinding flash, insanity... while
the fighters shoot. Then, while some of them are out of action charge. Close
up they´re just timber. Of course you can also try to kill them at a
distance but that costs a lot of spellpoints. I found the disabling/charging
tactic cheaper and faster and you don´t have to rest so much. You can also
use powders of course.
The problem comes if you´re stuck in melee with Modai or something on the
road while the plants keep shooting. Again I found it best to keep using
disabling spells (now spread over both groups). Range is a factor for
accuracy, if you drive away the plants by fear/blindness even when they
recover they´ll hit a lot less.
btw, a gadgeteer with the potopotty is great for this kind of combat as the
noxious fumes diable and damage at the same time. I´ve had a couple of
fights where she alone took care of groups of plants while the rest took
care of the juggernauts.
>>point is that there should have been more of a balance between melee and
>>ranged opponents.
Uhm, have to diagree, there´s a nice mix of high HP/damage melee monsters
and the sniping range attackers. If they come together you´re in trouble!
The main grief about balance that I have here is that the XP for the tough
melee monsters are too low compared to range/spell attacking creatures which
are often much weaker. Fights last a lot longer and you get less for them.
:(
>>I also found combat encounters too frequent, with no
>>chance to rest, and in general I found the monster group(s) to be a level or
>>two or three above where my characters were - I rarely encountered a group
>>less than or equal to my party level except in the very beginning.
>>Something definitely broken there IMO. This was with search mode on and off.
Try to use X-Ray, maybe combined with chameleon and if you don´t want to
fight, run. In the road/wilderness levels you can avoid *a lot* of fights
that way if you don´t want to fight. And play on easy, it´s no shame for
this game. Again gadgeteers rule with the X-Ray scanner you get midway
through the game. But even for a normal caster it´s definetely worth the
spellpoints, especially if you want to get anywhere! ;)
> OTOH, this produces some exciting and challenging battles/situations and
> takes some serious planning to get out of, with the occasional reload.
> Basically buy food (heal wounds, regain stamina), magic nectar and other
> restorative potions. Try to get to your destination withou camping.
Yup, camping is a problem. It´s nice for leveling up but keeps extending the
game. There´s a lot of magic nectar and healing potions and regeneration
items so it´s much easier to use those to get back on track. Do you have a
bard/gadgeteer in your party? They absolutely rock and you can keep using
high level spells basically for free, especially with stamina regenerating
items.
I´m actually thinking of a more or less caster-free party with a bard and a
gadgeteer and only secondary spellcasters to get the few essential spells
you can´t get through items. Anyone tried this before?
Think this through a bit and maybe if you play it again at some point you´ll
have more fun. And take a gadgeteer or bard, can´t recommend that enough,
you´ll have to rest a lot less.
Andreas
Sarah Ettritch
"Juris Baidins" <bai...@copland.udel.edu> wrote in message
news:a13der$4nk$1...@copland.udel.edu...
> The Valkyries probably had pole weapons (spears or halberds) which allow
> attacks out to the extended range in combat (W8 has close, extended,
thrown
> and long as combat distance categories), while the fighters had close
> weapons like swords.
Yes, I understand that. However, when I said that I got the "couldn't
reach" message when the opponent was directly in front, I meant directly in
front. When I said that the valkyries seemed able to hit monsters quite far
in the distance, I meant quite far in the distance. I actually liked the
way the different weapons affected how far a party member could attack and
the automatic swapping of weapons. But I ran into too many situations where
I couldn't reach but the opponents could, and it didn't make sense.
> The crab is like your Valkyries. The claws extend out beyond the body and
> it can reach out and hit you while your close ranged fighters cannot hit.
In this case, the crab was directly in front of my fighers... they were
almost standing on top of the thing. So this crab had to hit past two
fighters into the middle of the formation. Swords and axes extend beyond
the body as well.
> Some protective spells are just simply required: missile shield to deal
> with the blizzards of thorns (those damn plants) and acidic spit (from
> seekers, insects and what have you), magic screen for the spells and
> spell like effects (to raise your resistance to the various styles of
> magic attack) and armorplate.
My point wasn't that protective spells shouldn't be required, but that there
should have been more of a mix of pure melee vs. ranged opponents.
> OTOH, this produces some exciting and challenging battles/situations and
> takes some serious planning to get out of, with the occasional reload.
And if I wanted a combat simulator, I would have bought one. I was
expecting an immersive CRPG. I don't mind the occasional interesting and
challenging combat. But when the system seems biased against the party and
combat occurs often, it can become frustrating (and boring) quickly.
Sarah.
Sarah Ettritch
"Graeme Lindsell" <galin...@nospambigpond.com> wrote in message
news:Xns918CB2E052FD8l...@203.22.212.136...
> I treated the game as a pure exercise in combat and character improvement.
> The storyline was trivial and the puzzles annoying (I've never ben much
> of a puzzle fan) but it was fun as an exercise in character improvment.
I gave up on it because that wasn't was I was looking for when I bought it -
I was hoping for an interesting and immersive CRPG. I agree that character
generation and improvement was interesting but it just wasn't enough to keep
me going.
> ii)It managed to make combat boring - I spent most of the time watching
the
> enemies act. Might and Magic dealt with turn-based combat better IMO. I
> often gave my orders, pressed the "go" button and went to do something
else:
> make a cup of tea, go to the men's room, wash the car, learn a new
language
> etc etc.
I had to laugh here because I'd often do the same - you could tell when
you'd just been given an 'unscheduled break'.
> Summoner: "Let's see how many times can make the player through the same
> bloody sewers again" Story wasn't bad, with a couple of nice twists. I
never
> finished, since it looked like I'd have to go through those bloody sewers
> yet again to get to the final battle.
I gave up on this one too.
> Arcanum: "Let's offer the players great choices of how to imporve their
> character, and make almost of them a hell to play" Story was OK, but not
> great.
This to me was one of the more interesting ones this year, but still seemed
to lack something.
> Anachronox: "Let's give them half a story." It was a damn good half a
story,
> though. I didn't like the combat system much.
I didn't try this one.
> Baldur's Gate,: Throne of Bhall: "Let's spoil the memory of BG2 with a
pure
> combat fest" As the end of the BG story, it didn't do much for me. The
final
> battle looked like tedium to me, so again I never bothered.
This one definitely wasn't as good as the others in the series.
Disappointing, and I couldn't understand all the glowing reviews declaring
it a fitting end to the series.
> POR2: "Let's destroy those hard-drives" I never played POR2, since I
> treasure my hard drive, but the reviews weren't exactly glowing.
I tried it... one of those games that makes you wonder how the developers
and testers could ever have thought that there was anything remotely fun
about it.
> Other games I haven't played: Gorusul, Gothic, Evil Islands. Does anyone
> want to chime in supporting them? Gothic seems to be getting some good
> comments here.
I recently started Gothic. I find the controls awkward but haven't given it
enough time yet. If anyone has any tips about setting up the controls to
make them more friendly, please pass them along.
> Against the games I played, Wizardy 8 stacks up pretty well. Compared with
> them, I think it's the game of the year. I'd prefer to pick "No Award"
> though. Like you, I think 2001 didn't have any great CRPGs.
>
> Now, if Wiz 8 had been facing Torment, or BG2, or Deus Ex, or Fallout 1 or
> 2, or even Might and Magic 7 (my favourite of M&M 6 through 8), I wouldn't
> give it my vote.
I hope this year is much better - Morrowind, Deus Ex 2, Might and Magic 9,
Neverwinter Nights, Knights of the Old Republic (?) are scheduled and
hopefully they'll be on time and make up for a dismal 2001. As I said, I
had more fun with action games and would have to give game of the year to
one of those. CRPG of the year shouldn't be awarded this year, IMO.
Sarah.
Sarah Ettritch
news:a13s3i$3q8$2...@news.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de...
Some more comments:
>I扉e had this too but for me it wasn愒 directly in front (don愒 confuse
>where you愉e looking and where you愉e facing! ;) )
I never confused that - they were definitely in front of and facing the
crab. This wasn't the only time I got the annoying "can't reach" message
when I should have been able to - just the one time that sticks in my mind
that an opponent I couldn't reach managed to inflict damage on a party
member in the center of the formation.
>The main grief about balance that I have here is that the XP for the tough
>melee monsters are too low compared to range/spell attacking creatures
which
>are often much weaker. Fights last a lot longer and you get less for them.
>:(
That's a good point.
>Yup, camping is a problem. It愀 nice for leveling up but keeps extending
the
>game. There愀 a lot of magic nectar and healing potions and regeneration
>items so it愀 much easier to use those to get back on track. Do you have a
>bard/gadgeteer in your party? They absolutely rock and you can keep using
>high level spells basically for free, especially with stamina regenerating
>items.
Yep, got a bard in my party and they do rock. I was quite satisfied with my
party in the end -- but the lack of a strong story, lack of NPC
interaction, low number of quests, and annoying combat killed the game for
me.
> I惴 actually thinking of a more or less caster-free party with a bard and
a
> gadgeteer and only secondary spellcasters to get the few essential spells
> you can愒 get through items. Anyone tried this before?
Sort of - the party I finally settled on after starting over 3 times was 2
fighters, 2 valkyries (3 once I picked up Vi), a bard, and a priest. This
party did rock and I had the easiest time in combat with it, but the points
I mentioned above dragged the game down for me. The problem wasn't that I
had a 'wrong' party, and the fact that you could build a 'wrong' party in
this game is a strike against it in and of itself, IMO.
>Think this through a bit and maybe if you play it again at some point
you惻l
>have more fun. And take a gadgeteer or bard, can愒 recommend that enough,
>you惻l have to rest a lot less.
Resting a lot wasn't the issue. I found the annoyances and frequency of
combat got in the way of the experience.
I did 'think it through'. I've read most of the posts since Wiz8 was
released and the general response to people who say they aren't enjoying the
game seems to be this - your party is all wrong, your strategy is all wrong,
do this, do that, and suddenly the game will become fun. In my opinion, a
great game will be fun despite the player. The player should not have to
think too much or create the perfect party in order for a game to be fun -
well designed games just are. I invested a lot of hours in this game before
giving up on it - I really wanted to like it, as I've been dying to play a
decent CRPG all year, but unfortunately this game just didn't do it for me.
We're different people - some people did not like Wiz8 and won't no matter
what party they build or how they play the game. C'est la vie.
Sarah.
Brian Rauchfuss - PCD
Sarah Ettritch <ettr...@rogers.com> wrote:
>Sort of - the party I finally settled on after starting over 3 times was 2
>fighters, 2 valkyries (3 once I picked up Vi), a bard, and a priest. This
>party did rock and I had the easiest time in combat with it, but the points
>I mentioned above dragged the game down for me. The problem wasn't that I
>had a 'wrong' party, and the fact that you could build a 'wrong' party in
>this game is a strike against it in and of itself, IMO.
The only way to eliminate the possibility of a "wrong" party is by limiting
the player's choices - if the player wants to create a party of fairie fighters
then they are going to have a hard time - should the designers limit you to
only a few race/class combinations and force you to take a balanced mix in
order to make sure that everyone has a "right" party?
>Resting a lot wasn't the issue. I found the annoyances and frequency of
>combat got in the way of the experience.
Resting can cause respawning, which can cause frequent combat. I noticed that
the amount of combat can vary widely - sometimes I will wander through a
wilderness area and only have 1 combat. On the other hand, I have rested a
couple of days at Crock's in order to get more impaling stones and the X-Ray
screen showed a scary amount of red. So I left - using X-Ray, Chameleon and
running allows me to avoid pretty much all combat in wilderness areas.
Brian
Sarah Ettritch
> The only way to eliminate the possibility of a "wrong" party is by
limiting
> the player's choices - if the player wants to create a party of fairie
fighters
> then they are going to have a hard time - should the designers limit you
to
> only a few race/class combinations and force you to take a balanced mix in
> order to make sure that everyone has a "right" party?
I see your point, but I meant 'within reason'. Wiz8 does give a lot of
freedom and really stupid choices can be made that will make the game ultra
difficult. But from my own experience and from reading the experiences of
others, I think it's possible in Wiz8 to create a party that is reasonable
in terms of well balanced and sensible, but that doesn't work well within
the game. The many responses to Wiz8 dissenters of "oh, just change your
party and the game will improve" seem to bear this out.
> Resting can cause respawning, which can cause frequent combat.
With the last party I tried I didn't have to rest much. The frequency of
combat was still annoying at times, and when I did need to rest, I was
interrupted more often than not, even after just completing four or five
fights in a row.
> I noticed that
> the amount of combat can vary widely - sometimes I will wander through a
> wilderness area and only have 1 combat.
My experience too.
> On the other hand, I have rested a
> couple of days at Crock's in order to get more impaling stones and the
X-Ray
> screen showed a scary amount of red. So I left - using X-Ray, Chameleon
and
> running allows me to avoid pretty much all combat in wilderness areas.
I wouldn't have minded the amount of combat if the system was better
designed and if the groups I faced were more suited to my party's level of
experience. Of course, there will always be areas that one enters too early
in a game that are difficult, and you know to just get the hell out and try
again later. But if one of the goals of the game becomes to avoid combat
wherever possible, especially when combat seems to be an important element
of the game, then I think something has gone off the rails.
Sarah.
R. Cohen
> "Graeme Lindsell" <galin...@nospambigpond.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns918CB2E052FD8l...@203.22.212.136...
> > I treated the game as a pure exercise in combat and character improvement.
> > The storyline was trivial and the puzzles annoying (I've never ben much
> > of a puzzle fan) but it was fun as an exercise in character improvment.
>
> I gave up on it because that wasn't was I was looking for when I bought it -
> I was hoping for an interesting and immersive CRPG. I agree that character
> generation and improvement was interesting but it just wasn't enough to keep
> me going.
>
> > ii)It managed to make combat boring - I spent most of the time watching
> the
> > enemies act. Might and Magic dealt with turn-based combat better IMO. I
> > often gave my orders, pressed the "go" button and went to do something
> else:
> > make a cup of tea, go to the men's room, wash the car, learn a new
> language
> > etc etc.
>
> I had to laugh here because I'd often do the same - you could tell when
> you'd just been given an 'unscheduled break'.
>
I'm glad that I'm not the only one. There seems to be a technique to
combat that seems to make it more interesting but I don't know. It
seems clear to me that the pace of this game is just slower so I'm
just been taking my time with it. I'm still early on in the game but
so far it a very likeable game. It's not a superficial game and I
like that. It's not a perfect game by any means but there's a lot in
this game that very, very worthwhile. For example. I was fighting
some tree-sprites in the upper trees of Tyrnton. They started to
attack me while they on the bridge pretty far above me in the trees
and I hadn't yet seen them. WTF!!!?! So a "running" battle occured
between my party and the tree-sprites until we were on the same level.
I thought that was pretty "neat" and indicated that game was
something more than your run of the mill RPG. There are probably
other better examples but that seemed out of the ordinary for an RPG.
>
> > Arcanum: "Let's offer the players great choices of how to imporve their
> > character, and make almost of them a hell to play" Story was OK, but not
> > great.
>
> This to me was one of the more interesting ones this year, but still seemed
> to lack something.
>
That was a real flawed gem to me. I really loved the premise, design,
character advancement etc. etc. etc. It's just that some aspects of
the gameplay was quirky and cumbersome. Regardless this was a game
with a lot of depth. I thought the story was decent enough. In fact
some of the side-quests were quite involved and were persistant
thoughout the entire game. The fact that the technology side was
quite difficult to play doesn't negate the fact that it was a lot of
fun (and a lot of satisfaction) to do it that way.
> Anachronox: "Let's give them half a story." It was a damn good half a
> story,
> > though. I didn't like the combat system much.
>
> I didn't try this one.
>
> > Baldur's Gate,: Throne of Bhall: "Let's spoil the memory of BG2 with a
> pure
> > combat fest" As the end of the BG story, it didn't do much for me. The
> final
> > battle looked like tedium to me, so again I never bothered.
>
> This one definitely wasn't as good as the others in the series.
> Disappointing, and I couldn't understand all the glowing reviews declaring
> it a fitting end to the series.
>
Well the story does fit together with the other 2 BG's. It's just
that it's hard to keep the game challenging with characters people
have been using since BG1. That's how you ended up with these insane
combat intensive situations. Even people who started fresh still knew
how to solve most quests and maximize the growth at this point.
> > POR2: "Let's destroy those hard-drives" I never played POR2, since I
> > treasure my hard drive, but the reviews weren't exactly glowing.
>
Pure Sominex.
>
> I recently started Gothic. I find the controls awkward but haven't given it
> enough time yet. If anyone has any tips about setting up the controls to
> make them more friendly, please pass them along.
>
> > Against the games I played, Wizardy 8 stacks up pretty well. Compared with
> > them, I think it's the game of the year. I'd prefer to pick "No Award"
> > though. Like you, I think 2001 didn't have any great CRPGs.
> >
> > Now, if Wiz 8 had been facing Torment, or BG2, or Deus Ex, or Fallout 1 or
> > 2, or even Might and Magic 7 (my favourite of M&M 6 through 8), I wouldn't
> > give it my vote.
>
> I hope this year is much better - Morrowind, Deus Ex 2, Might and Magic 9,
> Neverwinter Nights, Knights of the Old Republic (?) are scheduled and
> hopefully they'll be on time and make up for a dismal 2001.
I think we'll see Might and Magic 9 before NeverWinter Nights before
Morrowind, but I'm just being cynical here.
hoy.Don...@hawaii.edu
: "Brian Rauchfuss - PCD" <brau...@pcocd2.fm.intel.com> wrote in message
: news:a14pe1$7...@news.or.intel.com...
:> The only way to eliminate the possibility of a "wrong" party is by
: limiting
:> the player's choices - if the player wants to create a party of fairie
: fighters
:> then they are going to have a hard time - should the designers limit you
: to
:> only a few race/class combinations and force you to take a balanced mix in
:> order to make sure that everyone has a "right" party?
: I see your point, but I meant 'within reason'. Wiz8 does give a lot of
: freedom and really stupid choices can be made that will make the game ultra
: difficult. But from my own experience and from reading the experiences of
: others, I think it's possible in Wiz8 to create a party that is reasonable
: in terms of well balanced and sensible, but that doesn't work well within
: the game. The many responses to Wiz8 dissenters of "oh, just change your
: party and the game will improve" seem to bear this out.
Wiz8 has so many choices and combinations of characters, it's not
surprising that some of them will not work out. There's also many
different ways of character leveling. IMO, that part was what
really screwed a lot of parties over. When developed right, even a
badly formed starting party can be formidable; likewise, a
well-formed party can be made unbearable.
:> Resting can cause respawning, which can cause frequent combat.
: With the last party I tried I didn't have to rest much. The frequency of
: combat was still annoying at times, and when I did need to rest, I was
: interrupted more often than not, even after just completing four or five
: fights in a row.
Perhaps you were resting too close to monster wandering grounds.
From using the x-ray spell (really handy), I noticed that certain
spots on the map regularly had more monster activity than others.
Resting in the sparesly populated areas resulted in less or no
encounters.
: I wouldn't have minded the amount of combat if the system was better
: designed and if the groups I faced were more suited to my party's level of
: experience. Of course, there will always be areas that one enters too early
: in a game that are difficult, and you know to just get the hell out and try
: again later. But if one of the goals of the game becomes to avoid combat
: wherever possible, especially when combat seems to be an important element
: of the game, then I think something has gone off the rails.
The goal shouldn't be to avoid combat, but rather to avoid combat
against too many opponents and/or in a bad position. I actually
like how Wiz8 puts had impossible fights early on when going to
Arnika. It showed that running -- whether to flee for your life, to
thin out the attackers, or to find a better location -- is an
effective strategy.
BTW, how would you have liked the combat system improved? Combat
was too tedious for me at first, but I was playing in phased mode.
With continuous mode, combat was much more involving, yet less
tedious. Easy battles were fought with less input needed, while
harder fights became much more intense. Take too long and your
character pretty much wastes his or her turn. Remapping and
learning the hotkeys helps a lot.
: Sarah.
--
hoy xatx hawaii xdotx education
hoy.Don...@hawaii.edu
: "Juris Baidins" <bai...@copland.udel.edu> wrote in message
: news:a13der$4nk$1...@copland.udel.edu...
:> The Valkyries probably had pole weapons (spears or halberds) which allow
:> attacks out to the extended range in combat (W8 has close, extended,
: thrown
:> and long as combat distance categories), while the fighters had close
:> weapons like swords.
: Yes, I understand that. However, when I said that I got the "couldn't
: reach" message when the opponent was directly in front, I meant directly in
: front. When I said that the valkyries seemed able to hit monsters quite far
: in the distance, I meant quite far in the distance. I actually liked the
: way the different weapons affected how far a party member could attack and
: the automatic swapping of weapons. But I ran into too many situations where
: I couldn't reach but the opponents could, and it didn't make sense.
You're sure that on the radar screen the red opponent blip was
hugging the top portion of the formation grid and that the
highlighted sector was facing up? If so, then that's really weird.
:> The crab is like your Valkyries. The claws extend out beyond the body and
:> it can reach out and hit you while your close ranged fighters cannot hit.
: In this case, the crab was directly in front of my fighers... they were
: almost standing on top of the thing. So this crab had to hit past two
: fighters into the middle of the formation. Swords and axes extend beyond
: the body as well.
Standing on top of the thing on the screen or on the radar? If you
right-clicked on them, do you remember what the "current range:"
line said?
Anyway, I find the extended range crabs pretty cool to
fight. Usually, they stay at extended range so that my short-ranged
front line has to switch to their less damaging ranged weapons;
however, when the crabs are in short range, they go for my weaker
characters in the center.
As for how they reach the center? I suspend disbelief and say these
are BIG crabs with BIG claws :)
:> OTOH, this produces some exciting and challenging battles/situations and
:> takes some serious planning to get out of, with the occasional reload.
: And if I wanted a combat simulator, I would have bought one. I was
: expecting an immersive CRPG. I don't mind the occasional interesting and
: challenging combat. But when the system seems biased against the party and
: combat occurs often, it can become frustrating (and boring) quickly.
Yeah, all the Wizardrys have been focused on combat (as were most
other older CRPGs). They're definitely not for everyone. Perhaps
it might have been a different story if you were expecting something
else.
Oh IMHO, the only big bias against the party is having to stick
together in formation. At least each character gets to defend
seperately via individual character facings. Other than that, it's
fairly even
Amarok
Actually it seems that monsters are roaming in a specific way. First
you see the crocodiles moving around obviously in a pattern like they
are patroling their route. Then the Picus arrive and so on. Not all
monsters have the same route they check all the time, but certainly
each monster group has one specific route which it patrols.
I think that resting is just great in W8. You can't just decide to
rest after a big battle. First you really have to find a corner to
sleep. If you rest on the middle of the street you will never finish
your rest.
Thats great IMO and very realistic => challenging (adding something to
your adrenalin), but alsol not standard in CRPGs. Someone has to get
used to it.
Amarok
Sarah Ettritch
news:a1bpi1$ii8$1...@news.hawaii.edu...
> BTW, how would you have liked the combat system improved?
1. Either both the party and opponents can move individually or both must
move as a group.
2. Fix the range calculation - as I mentioned, I ran into too many
situations where my fighters couldn't reach when they should have been able
to (yes, according to radar, which way I was facing, where the opponents
were, etc. - it did happen, too many times for my liking).
3. Attempting to put opponents in my way that are roughly equal to my level
was a good idea if it worked well, but it didn't in my game - apart from the
very beginning, the opponents were usually a higher level than my party.
Also my preference, and everyone is different, is that I have some idea of
what an area contains and that as my party grows, areas do become easier.
It didn't make sense to me that on Friday an area is filled with ants and on
Saturday they're all gone and now it's filled with crabs, just because my
party went up a couple of levels. It doesn't make sense for populations to
change overnight. Note: the use of ants and crabs is just an example. It
really bothered me that I'd walk down a road and battle it out, pop into
Arnika, for example, go up a few levels, come out and I'm back to square one
fighting enemies that are just as tough. It just became too tedious to move
between destinations.
4. Better mix of pure melee vs. ranged opponents.
5. Better balance of frequency of combat. Sure, you can avoid opponents,
use X-ray, etc., but that's not what I was looking for in the game - playing
hide and go seek. Part of what appeals to me when playing a CRPG is
exploration, and I felt the combat and having to constantly monitor where
enemies were to avoid them just got in the way and quickly became annoying.
It's the reason I stopped playing console games, which the combat in Wiz8
reminded me of. If I'd found the combat system more enjoyable, frequent
combat probably wouldn't have bothered me as much.
The game didn't work for me, but I can appreciate how others would enjoy it.
It just depends on what you were expecting or looking for - I prefer lots of
NPC interaction, a strong story, and an immersive world with opportunity for
quiet exploration, and Wiz8 just didn't deliver on those points.
Sarah.
Eric VanHeest
> tedious. Easy battles were fought with less input needed, while
> harder fights became much more intense. Take too long and your
> character pretty much wastes his or her turn. Remapping and
> learning the hotkeys helps a lot.
So.. where's the hotkey for "fireball" ?