Greatest Game Designer Ever?
Justisaur
I see a couple ways to look at it... the obvious one would be anyone
who worked on the greatest game ever (Fallout 2). However it seems
that a lot of programmers hit the scene and have one or two great
games in them and then are used up and no longer can produce anything
of much value.
So the other way to look at it is longevity and good & innovative
games in general. I only see one person to fit that bill, Peter
Molyneux. In the bullfrog years at least he released some great
games, from populous in 1989 to Dungeon Keeper in 1997. That's at
least 8 years of great games. I, unlike many, actually liked Black &
White, and Fable, making him still an excellent designer, with 20
years of enjoyable games under his belt. A whole career worth.
... As I look up in Wikipedia for the dates of releases, I see that he
died yesterday. I am quite shocked, and saddened. I can only hope
this is some prank, as I can't seem to find any news stories about
it. :(
- Justisaur
Rick Cortese
Another good name would be Sid Meier. I've played several of his games
like Pirates and found them to be fun and compelling at the time.
Shigeru Miyamoto is no slouch either.
I think you are right in there only seems to be so much water in the
well for a lot of people. Kind of like losing your virginity: Lot of
pressure to prove you can followed by scattered opportunities and
occasional indifference.
Rick
Jonah Falcon
are fun.
"Justisaur" <just...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:395dbcdd-2480-4c70...@m33g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
Jonah Falcon
"Justisaur" <just...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:395dbcdd-2480-4c70...@m33g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
pdpi
Peter Molyneux has some great games with his name on them (I
especially like Dungeon Keeper), but suffers from overdesigning and
then underdelivering. I rather enjoyed both Black and White and Fable,
but both were hyped as _much_ richer and deeper than what was actually
delivered (Sid Meier's Spore falls into that category as well,
unfortunately). Rick mentioned Shigeru Miyamoto, and I can't help
agreeing he's top tier (but then again I'm partial to his sort of
design).
pdpi
Bah, reference to SimGolf threw me off, I tend to confuse Sid Meier
with Will Wright.
So my previous comment refers to Wright. Still, I'm a big Civ fan,
so... yeah.
Nostromo
(PDT), Anno Domini:
David Brevik and Erich Schaefer, hands down! <G>
Ok, I see everyone has named all the commercial successes. If we're not
sticking to crpgs, here's one that deserves more than just a mention: Geoff
Crammond. What that guy did *single-handedly* for the early F1 driving sims
is unparalleled to this day. Also, Jeff Vogel in my books, just for
all-round guts, playability & keeping it old school & fun.
David Braben and Ian Bell are in the running as well, though most kiddies
here won't know who TF they are.
--
Nostromo
Magnate
I was going to use the analogy of musicians/bands with one or two great
albums followed by years of dross, but yours works too.
My vote would go to Steve Barcia of Simtex, author of MoO and MoM, the two
best PC games ever written (three if you include MoO2). Sadly he got out of
designing and into management.
CC
Magnate
news:rp11c5d39lnvjv3v8...@4ax.com...
Ha! The cult of Braben is alive and well here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8261272.stm
CC
CJM
"Rick Cortese" <rico...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:iNOdnS8PaJ2MXiLX...@earthlink.com...
>
> Another good name would be Sid Meier. I've played several of his games
> like Pirates and found them to be fun and compelling at the time.
+1 Sid Meier
From his early Microprose days to today's Colonization, he's had more hits
than misses and a number of iconic successes.
Mike S.
>Ok, I see everyone has named all the commercial successes. If we're not
>sticking to crpgs, here's one that deserves more than just a mention: Geoff
>Crammond. What that guy did *single-handedly* for the early F1 driving sims
>is unparalleled to this day. Also, Jeff Vogel in my books, just for
>all-round guts, playability & keeping it old school & fun.
>David Braben and Ian Bell are in the running as well, though most kiddies
>here won't know who TF they are.
With the exception of Jeff Vogel I have no idea who any of the people
on your list are and I am no kid. But then again, I don't do driving
sims. :-P
My vote goes to Warren Spector. An impressive list of games under his
belt.
Lars Haugseth
>
> Ok, I see everyone has named all the commercial successes. If we're not
> sticking to crpgs, here's one that deserves more than just a mention: Geoff
> Crammond. What that guy did *single-handedly* for the early F1 driving sims
> is unparalleled to this day.
Ah, Geoff Crammond.
The Sentinel, Revs, Stunt Car Racer. Those were the days.
--
Lars Haugseth
WDS
Not only that he's managed to take his biggest hit (civilization) and
significant improve it in 4 releases and several spinoffs. I have by
far spent more time playing civilization than any other series.
Rick Cortese
I drift but...
Oddly enough it was a recent look at bands that got me interested enough
in the topic to post. Listened to a Spooky Tooth tune on XM Radio and
was having trouble remembering who was in the band besides Gary Wright.
I saw that unlike Molyneux, Greg Ridley actually died. Ridley led me to
Humble Pie where I saw Steve Marriott had died along with former Small
Faces member Ronnie Lane. Sheesh! I think all these guys were in their
mid 50s when their days were done. Started thinking I should get a copy
of Tim Buckley's "Greetings from LA" and did give a listen to some Peter
Green when Fleetwood Mac was Fleetwood Mac. In case you are *REALLY*
bored: http://home.earthlink.net/~ricortes/Showbiz_Blues.mp3
I can remember when I was in college I worked the night shift at a
cannery. Driving home in my V8 Ford that song would come on my 8 track
tape and I would end up driving around the block for 5 mins so I could
finish listening to it. Oh the humanity!<sic>
To wrap it around a bit and back ~on topic. I make a lot of artificial
category's myself. Just had a topic in another group on greatest games
ever and Star Raiders came up. IMHO it had all the elements that were
later used in games from sims to RPGs to shooters. Ironically one of the
game elements that led to real time action, battles continue while you
look at maps or radar, Neubauer said that wasn't added but because he
was so cramped in an 8k cartridge he didn't have room for code to shut
it off.
Rick
Justisaur
> On Sun, 27 Sep 2009 06:30:28 -0700 (PDT), Justisaur
>
> <justis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >... As I look up in Wikipedia for the dates of releases, I see that he
> >died yesterday. I am quite shocked, and saddened. I can only hope
> >this is some prank, as I can't seem to find any news stories about
> >it. :(
>
> >- Justisaur
>
> dying and there is nothing on google news either so it was a lie.
Whew, it's gone now on the wiki page. Damn wiki trolls.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWnZOseA3Lw
That's a bit creepy.
- Justisaur
Justisaur
> Justisaur wrote:
> > From that other thread, I thought I'd take a look at it...
>
> > I see a couple ways to look at it... the obvious one would be anyone
> > who worked on the greatest game ever (Fallout 2). However it seems
> > that a lot of programmers hit the scene and have one or two great
> > games in them and then are used up and no longer can produce anything
> > of much value.
>
> > So the other way to look at it is longevity and good & innovative
> > games in general. I only see one person to fit that bill, Peter
> > Molyneux. In the bullfrog years at least he released some great
> > games, from populous in 1989 to Dungeon Keeper in 1997. That's at
> > least 8 years of great games. I, unlike many, actually liked Black &
> > White, and Fable, making him still an excellent designer, with 20
> > years of enjoyable games under his belt. A whole career worth.
>
> > ... As I look up in Wikipedia for the dates of releases, I see that he
> > died yesterday. I am quite shocked, and saddened. I can only hope
> > this is some prank, as I can't seem to find any news stories about
> > it. :(
>
> > - Justisaur
>
> Another good name would be Sid Meier. I've played several of his games
> like Pirates and found them to be fun and compelling at the time.
> Shigeru Miyamoto is no slouch either.
>
I was thinking of Sid Meier, probably the most consistently successful
designer, being in the business as long as Molyneux. Objectively I'd
have to award it to him, I just never enjoyed any of his games that
much.
Miyamoto... well o.k. he's good at light fun. Nothing I would
categorize as "great" though. Actually same issue I have with Meier,
the games were too shallow, especially as compared to other similar
things available, MoM, MoO...
Shallow seems to be successful though.
- Justisaur
Mark Morrison
I was wracking my brains trying to think of a game title, and it was
Stunt Car Racer.
Fucking amazing, especially when you linked up 2 computers and raced
against another player. It's probably SCR that put me off 'serious'
driving games and pushed me towards the 'smash and trash 'em' end of
the genre :)
Les Steel
I just won an Elite t-shirt in a twitter competition, got to ask a question
of David Braben. Like the fool I am I put 2 questions in one tweet, got one
answer, which could suit both!
I asked about Elite 4 and with the penchant for remakes, if an update of
Elite or Frontier would be possible otherwise for the PC. He said watch this
space!
Actualy this the exact tweet "Any chance of even an update or reimagining of
Elite for PC? Or Elite 4?" my bad
his answer "D.Braben: Who knows. watch this space! :-)"
noman
> My vote goes to Warren Spector. An impressive list of games under his
> belt.
And except for Deus-Ex (the first one) and CyberMage, he didn't design
or create any of the games that get attributed to him for some reason.
In case it isn't clear, Spector didn't design or create Ultima
Underworld, Ultima 7, Wing Commander, System Shock, Thief etc. He
wasn't an artist, designer, coder, writer, map-builder or project lead
on these games.
--
Noman
Magmamouse
get my vote. Of course they benefit from designing games that get right at
my personal preferences, and the designs weren't necessarily revolutionary
(though JA2 migh be considered so), but from a game design craftsmanship
standpoint I have never seen better. Those games are chock full of really
well considered design decisions.
Mike S.
<no_...@zzzyahoo.yycom> wrote:
>In case it isn't clear, Spector didn't design or create Ultima
>Underworld, Ultima 7, Wing Commander, System Shock, Thief etc. He
>wasn't an artist, designer, coder, writer, map-builder or project lead
>on these games.
I checked two of the games on your list and he is listed as the
Producer. I am not exactly sure what a producer is but I think he is
the guy who oversees the project. That definitely is not the same
thing to me as the one who actually makes the game if I have the
definition of producer correct. Thanks noman for the heads-up on that
one!
Nostromo
Anno Domini:
>> David Braben and Ian Bell are in the running as well, though most kiddies
>> here won't know who TF they are.
>
>Ha! The cult of Braben is alive and well here:
>
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8261272.stm
KEWL! If I read that right, they're looking at making another sequel with
current tech. Happee tiiimes!!! :)
--
Nostromo
Nostromo
Domini:
Brevik/Schaefer: Diablo 2
Braben/Bell: Elite + 2 sequels
>My vote goes to Warren Spector. An impressive list of games under his
>belt.
Hard to argue the point, even though I never got into WC or the Ultima
series myself & thought DX was pants. No accounting... ;)
--
Nostromo
Nostromo
Anno Domini:
Heh, this is the one that had me hooked for months:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stunts_%28video_game%29
I even wrote a terrain editor in basic/hex code, just so I could create even
whackier tracks. Ahhh, the good ol days! :)
--
Nostromo
Nostromo
Anno Domini:
>On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 19:57:28 +1000, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg, Nostromo
>wrote:
>We gamed in WIREFRAME, and we liked it! ;^)
He, he, my post space invaders, pre-PC addiction:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battlezone_%281980_video_game%29
>And while I'm at it with the early EA days, let's not forget Paul Reiche III,
>of Archon, Starflight and Star Control II fame.
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Reiche_III
>
>That man was a pioneer.
Oh yes. We're not worthy!
--
Nostromo
Nostromo
Domini:
As cool as it would be, they've got a lot of catch up to do on games like
Freespace1/2 & X1/2/3 if you ask me.
--
Nostromo
Nostromo
Anno Domini:
>On Sun, 27 Sep 2009 06:30:28 -0700 (PDT), in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg,
>Justisaur wrote:
>
>>From that other thread, I thought I'd take a look at it...
>>
>>I see a couple ways to look at it... the obvious one would be anyone
>>who worked on the greatest game ever (Fallout 2). However it seems
>>that a lot of programmers hit the scene and have one or two great
>>games in them and then are used up and no longer can produce anything
>>of much value.
>>
>>So the other way to look at it is longevity and good & innovative
>>games in general. I only see one person to fit that bill, Peter
>>Molyneux. In the bullfrog years at least he released some great
>>games, from populous in 1989 to Dungeon Keeper in 1997. That's at
>>least 8 years of great games. I, unlike many, actually liked Black &
>>White, and Fable, making him still an excellent designer, with 20
>>years of enjoyable games under his belt. A whole career worth.
>>
>>... As I look up in Wikipedia for the dates of releases, I see that he
>>died yesterday. I am quite shocked, and saddened. I can only hope
>>this is some prank, as I can't seem to find any news stories about
>>it. :(
>>
>
>Dan Bunten. He helped to make M.U.L.E., and I still play that game, with the
>original C=64 graphics, and it's still a blast.
>
>He also designed Seven Cities of Gold. Same story. That game still holds up,
>and no modern "remake" of either has ever felt right. Space Horse sucks.
>
>This was all back in the days when "Electronic Arts" wasn't a cuss word.
>
>Then he had a sex change operation and changed her name to Danielle.
>Apparently, she stopped designing good games. She didn't transition well. Too
>bad for us.
>
>http://www.atarimagazines.com/v3n9/profiles.html
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danielle_Bunten_Berry
>
>Funny quote: "No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had spent more
>time alone with my computer.'"
>
>Wicked awesome game designer. R.I.P.
You know I've never played MULE..or Wasteland...if only I had a time machine
*sigh*.
--
Nostromo
Mike S.
>Hard to argue the point, even though I never got into WC or the Ultima
>series myself & thought DX was pants. No accounting... ;)
Heh. Those are all really good games you mentioned. :) If you didn't
play them back in the day, it is probably too late now. Nostalgia
helps.
Ok if Warren Spector does not really deserve the credit for all those
games I thought he was responsible for, (although he was a part of
more good games then anyone else it seems at least) then I have
another one I will throw in.
What game designer made X-COM? Many people would call that the single
greatest game ever made I think. That game designer probably deserves
a mention in this thread.
Ross Ridge
>And except for Deus-Ex (the first one) and CyberMage, he didn't design
>or create any of the games that get attributed to him for some reason.
>
>In case it isn't clear, Spector didn't design or create Ultima
>Underworld, Ultima 7, Wing Commander, System Shock, Thief etc. He
>wasn't an artist, designer, coder, writer, map-builder or project lead
>on these games.
I don't associate Warren Spector with Ultima VII or Wing Commander,
but to paraphrase an earlier thread on this topic, maybe all he does is
bring coffee and doughnuts, but whatever he does it works.
Ross Ridge
--
l/ // Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
[oo][oo] rri...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
-()-/()/ http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~rridge/
db //
Ross Ridge
>What game designer made X-COM? Many people would call that the single
>greatest game ever made I think. That game designer probably deserves
>a mention in this thread.
That would be Julian Gollop. He's kind of a one trick pony though.
His successful titles have all been futuristic turn-based tactical combat
games like Laser Squad and X-COM.
noman
> noman <no_...@zzzyahoo.yycom> wrote:
> > And except for Deus-Ex (the first one) and CyberMage, he didn't
> > design or create any of the games that get attributed to him for
> > some reason.
> >
> > In case it isn't clear, Spector didn't design or create Ultima
> > Underworld, Ultima 7, Wing Commander, System Shock, Thief etc. He
> > wasn't an artist, designer, coder, writer, map-builder or project
> > lead on these games.
>
> I don't associate Warren Spector with Ultima VII or Wing Commander,
> but to paraphrase an earlier thread on this topic, maybe all he does
> is bring coffee and doughnuts, but whatever he does it works.
Well, his association with Wing Commander was same as Ultima
Underworld. He was producer on both titles. In the battle of media
attention Chris Roberts and his team (as the actual creators of Wing
Commander) won, whereas Doug Church, Tim Stellmach and co (creators of
Underworld, System Shock, Thief) were not so lucky.
With Underworld and System Shock, it gets even more ridiculous because
Spector wasn't even part of Looking Glass.
--
Noman
noman
> On Tue, 29 Sep 2009 00:02:24 +0000 (UTC), "noman"
> <no_...@zzzyahoo.yycom> wrote:
>
> > In case it isn't clear, Spector didn't design or create Ultima
> > Underworld, Ultima 7, Wing Commander, System Shock, Thief etc. He
> > wasn't an artist, designer, coder, writer, map-builder or project
> > lead on these games.
>
> I checked two of the games on your list and he is listed as the
> Producer. I am not exactly sure what a producer is but I think he is
> the guy who oversees the project.
No that'd be project lead. Project leads define project, direction,
gameplay and art styles and they decide who gets to do what. Spector
was not a project lead for those games. For the Looking Glass titles,
he mostly acted as a liasion official from Origin keeping the
communication open between LG and Richard Garriot and may be looking at
the development schedules.
> That definitely is not the same
> thing to me as the one who actually makes the game if I have the
> definition of producer correct. Thanks noman for the heads-up on that
> one!
You are welcome.
--
Noman
--
Ross Ridge
> I don't associate Warren Spector with Ultima VII or Wing Commander,
> but to paraphrase an earlier thread on this topic, maybe all he does
> is bring coffee and doughnuts, but whatever he does it works.
noman <no_...@zzzyahoo.yycom> wrote:
>Well, his association with Wing Commander was same as Ultima
>Underworld. He was producer on both titles. In the battle of media
>attention Chris Roberts and his team (as the actual creators of Wing
>Commander) won, whereas Doug Church, Tim Stellmach and co (creators of
>Underworld, System Shock, Thief) were not so lucky.
Sure, Warren Spector doesn't really qualify as a great "game designer",
but that's missing the point. He deserves credit for producing a lot
of great games. That's why his association with Ultima Underworld is
remembered more than Paul Neurath or Doug Church.
>With Underworld and System Shock, it gets even more ridiculous because
>Spector wasn't even part of Looking Glass.
Not really. Blue Sky Productions/Looking Glass was closely tied to
Origin during the production of these games.
Justisaur
> Thus spake Zaghadka <zagha...@hotmail.com>, Mon, 28 Sep 2009 12:06:44 -0500,
> Anno Domini:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battlezone_%281980_video_game%29
Unbelievable game for the time. I played it every once in awhile, but
I was no good at it, I swear I'd last like 2 seconds.
>
> >And while I'm at it with the early EA days, let's not forget Paul Reiche III,
> >of Archon, Starflight and Star Control II fame.
>
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Reiche_III
>
> >That man was a pioneer.
>
> Oh yes. We're not worthy!
>
Almost makes me want to pick up Madagascar... even though I haven't
seen the move... Almost.
From Star Control reduced to movie to game crossovers... sigh.
- Justisaur
Justisaur
> Thus spake Zaghadka <zagha...@hotmail.com>, Mon, 28 Sep 2009 12:01:42 -0500,
I tried wasteland years after fallout, just couldn't get into it, it
was too old and I was too old to deal with not having an automap. I'm
sure I would have loved it at the time.
- Justisaur
Leo
blabbed:
>Funny quote: "No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had spent more
>time alone with my computer.'"
I say that every day when I get home from work! Damn stupid
work!
Leo
Leo
blabbed:
>And while I'm at it with the early EA days, let's not forget Paul Reiche III,
>of Archon, Starflight and Star Control II fame.
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Reiche_III
>
>That man was a pioneer.
I loved those games. Archon ate up so many hours for me,
great MP game. Starflight was awesome. Never did starflight 2
unfortunately. SC2 was cool too.
I'll add to this list of games: I also loved star fleet 1,
its where I learned my angles from (270 degrees versus 180 degrees,
whatever, because you had to state your angle of attack). Talk about
old, its rogue old, ascii art graphics and all:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Fleet_%28game_series%29
http://homeoftheunderdogs.net/games/s/sfleet1/sfleet1.jpg
To this day, one of my secret favorites is mortal combat
deception I think it is (there are so many versions, I think that's
the one) which has a game mode added to it as an afterthought that is
a lot like archon. Archon w/MC characters, but close enough to be
fun. For the ps2. Chessboard, each side has several 'special' moves
they can use once per game, the pieces are mortal combat players,
however, and when they meet in a square they play out combat in real
time combat. And of course, the pawns have like half the amount of
life to reflect that they are pawns, and different 'pieces' can move
differently. In addition, you can choose which MC player is which
chess piece. Since it was an MC console game I almost missed out on
it, but its very nice to have an archon type game w/modern
graphics/controls that I can play on my ps2/ps3. Great game to play
when you have friends over who remember archon. Its too bad not a
single other MC game, or any other fighting game, has anything like
it, was a good idea. Its the only mode I play the game in (though it
also has a tetris like game mode some people who come over also like).
Leo
Leo
<just...@gmail.com> blabbed:
>So the other way to look at it is longevity and good & innovative
>games in general. I only see one person to fit that bill, Peter
>Molyneux. In the bullfrog years at least he released some great
>games, from populous in 1989 to Dungeon Keeper in 1997.
I would love to see a modern day dungeon keeper. DK3. And I
don't mean - theme hospital, evil genius, and other lame attempts.
Dungeon Keeper and only dungeon keeper. I want a full rez leather
clad evil mistress whose morale raises up when I slap her or put her
on the rack. hehe
Leo
Leo
<Anon...@anonymous.com.invalid> blabbed:
>Archon w/MC characters, but close enough to be
>fun. For the ps2.
forgot to put up any sort of link, mk:d chess kombat:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yXqbSPxZFI
Leo
Nostromo
Anno Domini:
>>You know I've never played MULE..or Wasteland...if only I had a time machine
>>*sigh*.
>
>Well, Wasteland just doesn't hold up, but for M.U.L.E., you can get yourself a
>copy of CCS64 and check out http://arnold.c64.org/.
>
>MULE's in there somewhere.
I think I fired it up once a few years back - MY EYES, MY EYES!!! And given
I'm playing games like LOTRO, Crysis & X3 these days, I fear my graphics
whore quotient is just beyond hope at this stage ;).
Just thinkin outside the square here: I think Gary Gygax deserves a mention,
love or hate the man <G>. (hey, the subject doesn't say *computer* game! ;)
--
Nostromo
Ross Ridge
>Sure, Warren Spector doesn't really qualify as a great "game designer",
>but that's missing the point. He deserves credit for producing a lot
>of great games. That's why his association with Ultima Underworld is
>remembered more than Paul Neurath or Doug Church.
Zaghadka <zagh...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>It is sounding a bit like Warren Spector's greatest talent is self-promotion,
>however.
I don't see any basis for that.
>To his credit, he kept Ion Storm: Austin on target while Romero and the clown
>college were producing Daikatana.
>
>Sounds like he's an exec rather than a creative, though.
Yes, like I said, maybe all he supply the coffee and doughnuts, but
whatever he does, it gets good games made. In an industry where most
games die in development, and few published games make money, his track
record as a producer is pretty amazing.
Nostromo
Anno Domini:
>On Tue, 29 Sep 2009 18:50:16 -0700 (PDT), in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg,
>Justisaur wrote:
>
>>On Sep 29, 5:53�am, Nostromo <nos...@forme.org> wrote:
>>> Thus spake Zaghadka <zagha...@hotmail.com>, Mon, 28 Sep 2009 12:06:44 -0500,
>>> Anno Domini:
>>
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battlezone_%281980_video_game%29
>>
>>Unbelievable game for the time. I played it every once in awhile, but
>>I was no good at it, I swear I'd last like 2 seconds.
>>
>
>The stuff Atari did with that "mathbox" was amazing. That game took some
>serious spatial-visualization skills. Plus tank controls.
>
>Man, I can smell the old bowling alley that I played it at, along with Missile
>Command and Polaris, just typing this. Great memories.
He, he, I was in a 'gang' of sorts - the console was at the local pinnie
parlour hangout. Kind of a Happy Days for the early 80s. :)
>>> >And while I'm at it with the early EA days, let's not forget Paul Reiche III,
>>> >of Archon, Starflight and Star Control II fame.
>>>
>>> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Reiche_III
>>>
>>> >That man was a pioneer.
>>>
>>> Oh yes. We're not worthy!
>>>
>>
>>Almost makes me want to pick up Madagascar... even though I haven't
>>seen the move... Almost.
>>
>>From Star Control reduced to movie to game crossovers... sigh.
>>
>
>I saw Fight Club for the first time last night. That is a hillarious movie.
>Best ending scene ever.
>
>It was on G4, the "gamer's" network. It makes me wonder if we're not all a
>little nuts.
"The things you own...they end up owning you."
Best line in a movie...EVA!!!
--
Nostromo
Nostromo
Anno Domini:
>On Wed, 30 Sep 2009 20:33:56 +1000, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg, Nostromo
>wrote:
>
>I figured we were talking about computer games. Give the credit to Arneson and
>the massive community of RPG pioneers. AFAIK, Gygax mostly did the collating
>and administration.
>
>If you want an idea of Gygax's ability to "design," take a look at Lejendary
>Adventure:
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lejendary_Adventure
>
>It was utter pants. I don't give him much credit as a designer.
Wasn't he almost entirely responsible for the Greyhawk campaign setting &
the Ravenloft module concept? I bet most D&Ders have heard of those, but
hardly any of Lej Adv. ;-p
--
Nostromo
Werner Punz
I would add Dani Bunten to the list...
noman
> Ross Ridge wrote:
> > I don't associate Warren Spector with Ultima VII or Wing Commander,
> > but to paraphrase an earlier thread on this topic, maybe all he does
> > is bring coffee and doughnuts, but whatever he does it works.
>
> noman <no_...@zzzyahoo.yycom> wrote:
> > Well, his association with Wing Commander was same as Ultima
> > Underworld. He was producer on both titles. In the battle of media
> > attention Chris Roberts and his team (as the actual creators of Wing
> > Commander) won, whereas Doug Church, Tim Stellmach and co (creators
> > of Underworld, System Shock, Thief) were not so lucky.
>
> Sure, Warren Spector doesn't really qualify as a great "game
> designer", but that's missing the point.
No, that exactly is my point. Warren Spector may be a great designer
for PC games, but he doesn't have too many games on his credit in that
capacity.
> He deserves credit for
> producing a lot of great games. That's why his association with
> Ultima Underworld is remembered more than Paul Neurath or Doug
> Church.
And my point is, that if that's the case he should be remembered for
Wing Commander as well, because his role was same, if not bigger as the
game was an internally developed one.
> > With Underworld and System Shock, it gets even more ridiculous
> > because Spector wasn't even part of Looking Glass.
>
> Not really. Blue Sky Productions/Looking Glass was closely tied to
> Origin during the production of these games.
>
Not exactly. Underworld was created long before Origin had even heard
about it. They saw it running at some game expo (perhaps E3) and
offered a deal to Looking Glass to convert their game into an Ultima.
That's the reason, Underworld 1 is so loosely connected to the world.
While Origin had to make sure that their property was not completely
mishandled, Looking Glass added the minimal plot changes and the
rune-based spell system on their own. It was their game. They had the
project leads and they created the game.
Underworld 2 was different. After finishing the first game, Doug
Church, Stellmach and Neurath among others came up with this idea of
integrating Underworld 2 more with the Ultima mythos. So they came up
with the plot tying the game to Ultima 7, and pitched the idea to
Richard Garriot in a meeting. He accepted it right away and gave the
green signal. So we got an Underworld 2 with the familiar Ultima
locales and characters.
System Shock was entirely Doug Church and LG's idea, since it was a new
IP. There were no Origin connections, except that they (through EA)
published the game and may be QA'd it as well.
As far as Thief is concerned, just read the discussion between Church
and Spector below that happened at a Game Developer's conference
several years ago. It was originally published at joystick101.org but
the article isn't there anymore.
----------------------
Warren: Why can't I fight my way through a Thief mission?
Doug: Well you can... but you'd be playing your own game.
Doug- The game isn't about defeating the AI, they're foils like you
said... not the enemy. The AI could defeat you if we wanted it to. "I
think I hear something ... pause pause pause", "I better investigate
.. pause pause pause..." "I guess it was rats ... Loud footsteps"
Doug: Thief is a game about territory. In each game the player and the
AI have their safe zones, but to get to the player's goal they need to
adjust that territory by changing the environment.
Warren: How is standing and waiting fun?
Doug: Make the player about to do something. Those moments are losing
someone and waiting for the AI to calm down, or waiting to bonk
someone on the head when they turn around. We have to provoke those
feelings in the player to make the game fun.
------------------
Warren: Why in Thief am I given so little information about the
mission and what I'm getting into?
Doug: We did it deliberately, not that it wasn't discussed endlessly.
There was lots of team chaos and discussion. We wanted Thief to be a
game that forces the user to dynamically react to what occurs. We
didn't want a lot of planning, we wanted it to be played on the fly.
Give the player enough information for an initial plan of attack.
Warren: (shakes his head) I want more direction on how big the mission
is. You never know how close you are to your goals or some general
difficulty information.
Warren: The other thing is that I'd be less upset if you'd replenished
my inventory. It's so inconsistently replenished that I don't know if
this is a time to use my fire arrows.
Doug: But that's not strategy... the player shouldn't know.
Warren: I just want informed choices..
Doug: We didn't want our players to hoard inventory... we wanted them
to run out and use them. In games like first person shooters,
inventory and powerups are very short term (like quake). That's true
of most games of that style. You don't get a large stream of powerups
and the play is determined by skill. This isn't final fantasy with
3000 healing potions.
Warren: (emphatically) But I have no way of knowing that the barracks
is full of guards!
Doug: SCOUT THE BARRACKS!
--------------
--
Noman
Ross Ridge
> Sure, Warren Spector doesn't really qualify as a great "game
> designer", but that's missing the point.
noman <no_...@zzzyahoo.yycom> wrote:
>No, that exactly is my point.
No one disagreed with you. You disagreed with me, but missed my point
completely.
>And my point is, that if that's the case he should be remembered for
>Wing Commander as well, because his role was same, if not bigger as the
>game was an internally developed one.
Nope. While his title might have been the same, his role was different.
Ultima Underworld might not have seen the light of day if Warren Spector
hadn't become it's producer. Wing Commander would've gotten made pretty
much regardless of who ended up getting the producer credit.
>> Not really. Blue Sky Productions/Looking Glass was closely tied to
>> Origin during the production of these games.
>
>Not exactly.
Paul Neurath, the designer of Ultima Underworld and the founder of Blue
Sky Producitons, was an ex-employee of Origin. He hired an ex-Origin
employee to do the original concept art. The ties to Origin start from
before he founded the company.
> Underworld was created long before Origin had even heard about it.
>They saw it running at some game expo (perhaps E3) and offered a deal to
>Looking Glass to convert their game into an Ultima. That's the reason,
>Underworld 1 is so loosely connected to the world.
What they showed in 1990 was a crude demo. Actual work on the game
didn't start until Origin agreed to become the publisher.
In Paul Neurath's own words:
http://www.ttlg.com/articles/uw1.asp
... we put together a prototype which demonstrated walking
smoothly around a 3D dungeon rendered with texture mapping. Even
though it was a rough prototype, nobody had seen anything like
it before, and a lot of mouths gapped wide open. We shopped
the game to a handful of publishers, including Origin, who we
ended up signing a licensing agreement with that summer. Origin
proposed that we leverage the Ultima brand, which we thought
was a fine idea, and so the game was renamed Ultima Underworld.
...
It was clear that Ultima Underworld was not getting much attention
from Origin. Given that Origin was 2,000 miles distant, had only
vested us once over the first year of the game's development,
and was busy attending to its internally developed games, this
was perhaps to be expected. We were at a low point, and had even
begun to hear talk of Origin terminating the project.
I had worked with Warren Spector during the tail end of Space
Rogue, respected him greatly, and so we proposed that he be
assigned as our new producer. Warren understood immediately
what we were trying to accomplish with the game, and became our
biggest champion within Origin. Had not Warren stepped in this
role at that stage, I'm not sure Ultima Underworld would have
ever seen the light of day.
The history of the development of Ultima Underworld and the roles of
Paul Neurath and Warren Spector and others involved in the project is
pretty well documented on the WWW.
Ross Ridge
>Well, I said "greatest talent," not *only* talent.
>
>My "basis" was other scuttlebutt in the thread. And that's all it is:
>scuttlebutt, and it's hardly a "basis." I'm just suspicious.
I don't recall anyone else in this thread suggesting Warren Spector was
to blame. In any case, while I'm quoting Paul Neurath, the designer of
Ultima Underworld, here's what he has to say about it:
http://www.mallo.co.uk/ultima/neurath.htm
It would be more accurate to say that Warren has had the
credit for Ultima Underworld thrust upon him, much to his
embarrassment. Warren himself has tried to set the record
straight. He was the Origin producer on the two Underworld
titles, but the games were conceived of and developed by Blue
Sky Productions, an independent studio that was separate from
Origin, much like Id Software is from Activision.
...
Not long after Underworld's release, Blue Sky Productions
merged with another developer and became Looking Glass. This
added another layer of confusion in the game's lineage. One
steady voice through this period was Warren, who as producer for
Underworld and its sequel, was often in the position of Origin's
spokesperson for the games. People began to associate the game
with Warren. Later when he grew as a designer in his own right
(with Deus Ex), some tacitly added the Underworlds to his list
of creative credits.
noman
> Ross Ridge wrote:
> > Sure, Warren Spector doesn't really qualify as a great "game
> > designer", but that's missing the point.
>
> noman <no_...@zzzyahoo.yycom> wrote:
> > No, that exactly is my point.
>
> No one disagreed with you. You disagreed with me, but missed my point
> completely.
The thread title is "Greatest game desginer ever?", not "Greatest
doughnut and cookie provider". My point is that you can't call Spector,
a great designer based on how Underworld, System Shock and Thief turned
out since he didn't create the games.
If he did something else for those titles, then that's beyond the scope
of this thread. We can then also talk about how Trip Hawkins as EA's
CEO created all those EA games in the late 80s.
> [Paul Neurath's quote]
> I had worked with Warren Spector during the tail end of Space
> Rogue, respected him greatly, and so we proposed that he be
> assigned as our new producer. Warren understood immediately
> what we were trying to accomplish with the game, and became our
> biggest champion within Origin. Had not Warren stepped in this
> role at that stage, I'm not sure Ultima Underworld would have
> ever seen the light of day.
>
Thanks, I didn't know Underworld was under threat of cancellation. I
remember it got delayed a bit, along with Ultima 7.
--
Noman
Ross Ridge
> Sure, Warren Spector doesn't really qualify as a great "game
> designer", but that's missing the point.
noman <no_...@zzzyahoo.yycom> wrote:
> No, that exactly is my point.
> No one disagreed with you. You disagreed with me, but missed my point
> completely.
noman <no_...@zzzyahoo.yycom> wrote:
>The thread title is "Greatest game desginer ever?", not "Greatest
>doughnut and cookie provider".
So that's your excuse for not getting my point? Every post in a thread
doesn't have match the subject exactly.
>My point is that you can't call Spector, a great designer based on how
>Underworld, System Shock and Thief turned out since he didn't create
>the games.
No one failed to understand what your point was, so there's no need keep
repeating yourself.
Mike S.
<no_...@zzzyahoo.yycom> wrote:
>The thread title is "Greatest game desginer ever?", not "Greatest
>doughnut and cookie provider". My point is that you can't call Spector,
>a great designer based on how Underworld, System Shock and Thief turned
>out since he didn't create the games.
I agree with you. Warren Spector isn't the game designer I thought he
was. Trust me, your posts got through loud and clear. Ross agrees with
you too on that point. He is just pointing out that while Spector
isn't the game designer of these games he still played a critical role
in their creation. That is good to know and I am glad Ross posted.
Between the two of you, I think I got the real truth.