BIS should move away from AD&D

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Jeremy Reaban

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Jul 6, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/6/00
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Icewind Chip wrote in message <39654...@aol.SPAMSPAMSPAMcom>...
<snip>
>
>That is all. Any thoughts?

Just the D&D name means a lot of sales. Balder's Gate, not that great
a game, sold a lot more copies than the Fallout series. True, the
last couple SSI AD&D games didn't sell well, but they were terrible.
Torment might not have been a big hit, but it's setting (Planescape)
wasn't particularly popular.

I think that the D&D/AD&D rules are very well suited for computer
games. They're better for computer games than really playing it on a
table w/ other people. Which is why just about every console RPG uses
a system fairly similar to D&D/AD&D (hit points, classes, levels).

Icewind Chip

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Jul 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/7/00
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Black Isle has had great success with the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons
label. Planescape Torment and Icewind Dale have realized the potential
of the license and the Infinity engine itself.

But it is time to move on.

I would like to see BIS create more games based on totally unique
worlds, such as Fallout. Fallout didn't have to adhere to any RPG board
game rules (although it was almost based upon GURPS), and it was a
better game for it. Both Planescape and IWD suffer from some of the
dumb AD&D conventions, namely all that THAC0 and AC mumbo jumbo. I'm
sorry, I'm sure some of you guys who have been playing D&D for decades
think it is the most intuitive thing in the world, but it is not. It
could be made MUCH simpler.

My main reason for urging BIS to move away from AD&D is just diversity.
Let's get some sci-fi RPG's, or other types of worlds. Let's get a game
where players won't already know all the pros and cons of each race and
class (they will have to learn for themselves). Lets get a game where
the player won't already know the weaknesses of each monster. Finally,
lets just get a game that is designed 100% for the computer and the
computer's capabilites. No more dice and other boardgame carry overs.
Developers need to find out what RPG elements a computer can enhance
that a human dungeon master can't and design a game to take advantage of
that fact.

BIS is unquestionably the leader in computer RPG's at the moment. They
have developed/published about 5 games in a row that have all been
triple AAA titles. The future certainly looks bright, but lets not
forget what the RPG scene was like a few short years ago. The genre was
practically declared dead. Why did this happen? I don't know, but I'm
sure it had something to do with a lack of innovation on the part of
developers. Diversifying RPG's would benefeit us all, and as the
industry leader, I look to BIS to do this.

Jason McCullough

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Jul 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/7/00
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Do you really think they could sell a *million copies* of a PC rpg not
based on AD&D? I don't. They can, and did, sell a million copies of
Baldur's Gate. I wouldn't hold your breath.


Jason McCullough
http://zebco.home.dhs.org/

Allister Huggins

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Jul 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/7/00
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Icewind Chip wrote:

Kind or ironic post from someone named Icewind.

<snip>

> better game for it. Both Planescape and IWD suffer from some of the
> dumb AD&D conventions, namely all that THAC0 and AC mumbo jumbo. I'm
> sorry, I'm sure some of you guys who have been playing D&D for decades
> think it is the most intuitive thing in the world, but it is not. It
> could be made MUCH simpler.

Agreed. Both Pools of Radiance 2 and Neverwinter Nights should be
easier for a newbie to understand than any of Interplay's 2E AD&D games.


> My main reason for urging BIS to move away from AD&D is just diversity.

Hmm? By my count, in the last 3 years, BIS has created Fallout I & II,
Planescape:Torment and Icewind Dale. Icewind Dale is the only
"traditional" RPG they have made in the last few years.



> Let's get some sci-fi RPG's, or other types of worlds. Let's get a game

Torment.

> where players won't already know all the pros and cons of each race and

Torment.

> class (they will have to learn for themselves). Lets get a game where
> the player won't already know the weaknesses of each monster. Finally,

Torment.

BIS has produced/made by my count, 3 "non-tolkein" RPGs (FO I&II, P:T)
and two "tolkein" RPGs (BG and ID). They have announced they are
releasing one more traditional RPG (BG2) and one RPG, which I consider
somewhat evolutionary even though it is Tolkein based (NWN).
That's a pretty diversified outing for a RPG company.

Allister H.

John A. Mason

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Jul 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/7/00
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I agree with you. This is a great company using a great engine. The
possibilities are endless. While I am a fan of AD&D like anyone, I also
would appreciate seeing more sci-fi (or other) type games (ala FO 1 & 2,
etc). I don't thing having AD&D in the title is necessarily important to
having a game do well. Let's see some new and different things from BIS (not
that I'm unhappy with the current output 8-) ).

John

"Icewind Chip" <Drumm...@aol.SPAMSPAMSPAMcom> wrote in message
news:39654...@aol.SPAMSPAMSPAMcom...


> Black Isle has had great success with the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons
> label. Planescape Torment and Icewind Dale have realized the potential
> of the license and the Infinity engine itself.
>
> But it is time to move on.
>
> I would like to see BIS create more games based on totally unique
> worlds, such as Fallout. Fallout didn't have to adhere to any RPG board
> game rules (although it was almost based upon GURPS), and it was a

> better game for it. Both Planescape and IWD suffer from some of the
> dumb AD&D conventions, namely all that THAC0 and AC mumbo jumbo. I'm
> sorry, I'm sure some of you guys who have been playing D&D for decades
> think it is the most intuitive thing in the world, but it is not. It
> could be made MUCH simpler.
>

> My main reason for urging BIS to move away from AD&D is just diversity.

> Let's get some sci-fi RPG's, or other types of worlds. Let's get a game

> where players won't already know all the pros and cons of each race and

> class (they will have to learn for themselves). Lets get a game where
> the player won't already know the weaknesses of each monster. Finally,

Lost Dragon

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Jul 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/7/00
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>> Let's get some sci-fi RPG's, or other types of worlds. Let's get a game
>Torment.

I wouldn't call Torment sci-fi.

>> where players won't already know all the pros and cons of each race and

> Torment.

Depends on whether or not you have the boxed set :P

/| .oo__. A .---.=- -= Lost Dragon =- -=.---. U
{ \| ,-'' L |_O_|==- -= Forever Dead Forgotten Lie =- -==|_O_| D
`,_/'(_)\_ I | | |==- Remembered Souls, They Cannot Die -==| | | I
<...{_)_)_'' D `---`===-- http://www.lostdragon.com/ --==='---' C

oblinx

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Jul 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/7/00
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Drumm...@SPAMNOSPAMaol.com (Icewind Chip) wrote in
<39654...@aol.SPAMSPAMSPAMcom>:

>Black Isle has had great success with the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons
>label. Planescape Torment and Icewind Dale have realized the potential
>of the license and the Infinity engine itself.
>
>But it is time to move on.

What's wrong with more of a good thing besides the crappy RPG system.
Besides the newer games should have the 3E AD&D/D&D rules and be much more
flexible and less confusing.

>I would like to see BIS create more games based on totally unique
>worlds, such as Fallout.

Fallout 3 should be on the drawing boards at BIS, hopefully.

And IWD is a fun game even with all it's bugs and eccentricities like
whacked out path-finding.

I do agree that the Infinity engine needs to be laid to rest, it is just
too limiting in scope. There's only so much you can do and present in 2D no
matter how prettily.

Sander Pilon

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Jul 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/7/00
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"Jason McCullough" <blort...@ou.edu> wrote in message
news:3lkamssl9mbf6hnq8...@4ax.com...

> >Black Isle has had great success with the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons
> >label. Planescape Torment and Icewind Dale have realized the potential
> >of the license and the Infinity engine itself.
> >
> >But it is time to move on.
> >
>> [SNIP]

> >
> >That is all. Any thoughts?
>
> Do you really think they could sell a *million copies* of a PC rpg not
> based on AD&D? I don't. They can, and did, sell a million copies of
> Baldur's Gate. I wouldn't hold your breath.
>

But BG was a fun game too. I know some found it boring, but I found it the
best game in years.
(As opposed to Fallout, which I dont care much for but it seems a lot of
people like it.)

Allister Huggins

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Jul 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/7/00
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Lost Dragon wrote:
>
> >> Let's get some sci-fi RPG's, or other types of worlds. Let's get a game
> >Torment.
>
> I wouldn't call Torment sci-fi.

He did say "other types of worlds" and Torment definitely fits into
that category.

> >> where players won't already know all the pros and cons of each race and
> > Torment.
>
> Depends on whether or not you have the boxed set :P
>

And a might fine boxed set it is.

Allister H.

Mikko P Vuorinen

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Jul 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/7/00
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In <39654...@aol.SPAMSPAMSPAMcom> Icewind Chip <Drumm...@aol.SPAMSPAMSPAMcom> writes:

>My main reason for urging BIS to move away from AD&D is just diversity.

>Let's get some sci-fi RPG's, or other types of worlds. Let's get a game

But I don't like sci-fi RPGs! Oh well.

--
)))) (((( + Mikko Vuorinen + mvuo...@cc.helsinki.fi
)) OO `oo'((( + Dilbon@IRC&ifMUD + http://www.helsinki.fi/~mvuorine/
6 (_) ( ((( + GSM 050-5859733 +
`____c 8__/((( + + Tähän tilaan ei mahdu mitään.

Bryan Youmans

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Jul 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/7/00
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Icewind Chip wrote:

> Black Isle has had great success with the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons
> label. Planescape Torment and Icewind Dale have realized the potential
> of the license and the Infinity engine itself.
>
> But it is time to move on.

Why? And who says they're not creating non-D&D games simultaneously?
(Fallout 3?)

>
> I would like to see BIS create more games based on totally unique

> worlds, such as Fallout. Fallout didn't have to adhere to any RPG board
> game rules (although it was almost based upon GURPS), and it was a
> better game for it. Both Planescape and IWD suffer from some of the
> dumb AD&D conventions, namely all that THAC0 and AC mumbo jumbo.

You don't think Fallout used it's own variation of AC and THAC0? How do you
think the system knew if your bullet hit and/or did any damage to the
mutants you shot at? It used it's own version of AC, it's just that the
rules and details weren't laid out for every player to see.


> I'm
> sorry, I'm sure some of you guys who have been playing D&D for decades
> think it is the most intuitive thing in the world, but it is not. It
> could be made MUCH simpler.

Well, that's possibly true. However, most new D&D games should use 3rd
edition (notable exception being BG2), which does simplify the rules
considerably.


> My main reason for urging BIS to move away from AD&D is just diversity.
> Let's get some sci-fi RPG's, or other types of worlds. Let's get a game

> where players won't already know all the pros and cons of each race and

> class (they will have to learn for themselves). Lets get a game where

> the player won't already know the weaknesses of each monster. Finally,
> lets just get a game that is designed 100% for the computer and the
> computer's capabilites. No more dice and other boardgame carry overs.
> Developers need to find out what RPG elements a computer can enhance
> that a human dungeon master can't and design a game to take advantage of
> that fact.

Ever played Everquest? There's a game not based on any previously published
board or dice rules, which no one knew the pros and cons of anything, not
even the effects of base stats! The formulae for determining if you hit (AC
and THAC0 to continue our example) was made to be a big mystery (along with
everything else). Hell, they didn't even want you to know how much mana you
had to cast spells with (or even the effects of the spells themselves!).
Let me tell you what, I think it sucks not knowing, as you put it, the
"pros and cons" of the races / classes / attributes / AC & THAC0. You get
rogues who assumed (and were led to believe) Dexterity and Agility were
their prime statistics, that they should get magic items that increased dex
and agi, only to find out later, after investing months of effort into
building their character in this knowledge vacuum, that these stats have
basically negligible impact on the game.

> BIS is unquestionably the leader in computer RPG's at the moment. They
> have developed/published about 5 games in a row that have all been
> triple AAA titles. The future certainly looks bright, but lets not
> forget what the RPG scene was like a few short years ago. The genre was
> practically declared dead. Why did this happen? I don't know, but I'm
> sure it had something to do with a lack of innovation on the part of
> developers.

Maybe. But as a CRPGer since 1980, I can say that even when we went through
the lean years you mention there in the mid 90's, when the CRPG scene was
practically dead, companies were producing non-AD&D related games, they
just really stunk. Unfortunately, most of the AD&D ones at the time stunk
too. They all stunk. ;p That's why we endlessly replayed old games, or
other genre games (like X-Com and Masters of Magic ;).

> Diversifying RPG's would benefeit us all, and as the
> industry leader, I look to BIS to do this.

They are already doing their part. Plus, there are a ton of different
CRPG's being developed at the moment. Hopefully they won't all suck like in
years past (POR2, NWN, and Arcanum at least are looking good).

Sean Howard

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Jul 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/7/00
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Jeremy Reaban (j...@Xconnectria.com) wrote:

: Just the D&D name means a lot of sales. Balder's Gate, not that great


: a game, sold a lot more copies than the Fallout series. True, the
: last couple SSI AD&D games didn't sell well, but they were terrible.
: Torment might not have been a big hit, but it's setting (Planescape)
: wasn't particularly popular.

Look at the release situations for Baldur's Gate and Fallout. Fallout was
released at a time when there were no computer rpgs being released
(with the exception of graphically hideous Might and Magic games). Fallout
gets released and is lauded as RPG of the year and almost single-handedly
brings the genre back from the death.

Fallout is the reason Baldur's Gate sold so well. If there wasn't a market,
D&D rules wouldn't count for a whole lot of anything. In fact, TSR went
under because D&D rules didn't count for anything.

To sum up, Baldur's Gate sold really well because it was the right product
at the right time in the right place. Fallout wasn't, but it did help create
the time and place that Baldur's Gate was able to flourish in. Both games
are good games (i'm a planescape guy myself), but please don't attribute
BG's success completely to the D&D rule system.

@@
Sean Howard

Max Sterling

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Jul 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/7/00
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If you want simple, play Diablo (1 or 2) Darkstone or Revenant. I for one
do not want to see BIS stop making Dungeons and Dragons based games. I have
been playing it for almost 2 decades, and the BIS games are simply some of
the best I've ever played.


Icewind Chip <Drumm...@aol.SPAMSPAMSPAMcom> wrote in message
news:39654...@aol.SPAMSPAMSPAMcom...

> Black Isle has had great success with the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons
> label. Planescape Torment and Icewind Dale have realized the potential
> of the license and the Infinity engine itself.
>
> But it is time to move on.
>

> I would like to see BIS create more games based on totally unique
> worlds, such as Fallout. Fallout didn't have to adhere to any RPG board
> game rules (although it was almost based upon GURPS), and it was a
> better game for it. Both Planescape and IWD suffer from some of the

> dumb AD&D conventions, namely all that THAC0 and AC mumbo jumbo. I'm


> sorry, I'm sure some of you guys who have been playing D&D for decades
> think it is the most intuitive thing in the world, but it is not. It
> could be made MUCH simpler.
>

> My main reason for urging BIS to move away from AD&D is just diversity.
> Let's get some sci-fi RPG's, or other types of worlds. Let's get a game
> where players won't already know all the pros and cons of each race and
> class (they will have to learn for themselves). Lets get a game where
> the player won't already know the weaknesses of each monster. Finally,
> lets just get a game that is designed 100% for the computer and the
> computer's capabilites. No more dice and other boardgame carry overs.
> Developers need to find out what RPG elements a computer can enhance
> that a human dungeon master can't and design a game to take advantage of
> that fact.
>

> BIS is unquestionably the leader in computer RPG's at the moment. They
> have developed/published about 5 games in a row that have all been
> triple AAA titles. The future certainly looks bright, but lets not
> forget what the RPG scene was like a few short years ago. The genre was
> practically declared dead. Why did this happen? I don't know, but I'm
> sure it had something to do with a lack of innovation on the part of

> developers. Diversifying RPG's would benefeit us all, and as the


> industry leader, I look to BIS to do this.
>

Jacunta

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Jul 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/7/00
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On Fri, 07 Jul 2000 03:24:21 GMT, Icewind Chip
<Drumm...@aol.SPAMSPAMSPAMcom> wrote:

>Black Isle has had great success with the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons
>label. Planescape Torment and Icewind Dale have realized the potential
>of the license and the Infinity engine itself.
>
>But it is time to move on.

Or at least diversify into sci-fi like you mentioned, while still
profiting from the D&D crowd. I'd buy both types of games, myself...



>
>I would like to see BIS create more games based on totally unique
>worlds, such as Fallout. Fallout didn't have to adhere to any RPG board
>game rules (although it was almost based upon GURPS), and it was a
>better game for it. Both Planescape and IWD suffer from some of the
>dumb AD&D conventions, namely all that THAC0 and AC mumbo jumbo. I'm
>sorry, I'm sure some of you guys who have been playing D&D for decades
>think it is the most intuitive thing in the world, but it is not. It
>could be made MUCH simpler.


Fallout 2 is my first RPG. Then I went to Torment. That "mumbo jumbo"
*was* and still *is* quite confusing.

>
>My main reason for urging BIS to move away from AD&D is just diversity.
>Let's get some sci-fi RPG's, or other types of worlds.

I agree totally. The creative possibilities are truly exiting.

>BIS is unquestionably the leader in computer RPG's at the moment. They
>have developed/published about 5 games in a row that have all been
>triple AAA titles. The future certainly looks bright, but lets not
>forget what the RPG scene was like a few short years ago.

I only recently discovered the gem that is Black Isle Studios. By
chance I happened to pick up Fallout 2 in the bargain bin. Now I've
played Torment and IWD. The elegance of BIS's games has made me a
devoted fan.

Lately I've encountered a worrisome thought: will they meet the same
fate as Looking Glass? A great game company who actually cares about
making great games, and is willing to take a chance on innovation. I
know BG sold well, but what of these others? Planescape? IWD?

The key to avoid demise seems to be the ability to make popular games
that appeal to a mass base, while using the revenue of these popular
games to fund more obscure, innovative, unique games which may not
sell as well, but are truly works of art.

Icewind Chip

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Jul 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/7/00
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Max Sterling wrote:
>
> If you want simple, play Diablo (1 or 2) Darkstone or Revenant.

I knew someone was going to say this. I want systems that make sense.
Fallout wasn't "simple", but it made sense. There was a lot of depth
there, but it was easy to get the gist of how things worked.

Cay

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Jul 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/7/00
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Jacunta <jac...@jazzlover.com> wrote in message
news:hhrbms4p7tgmgv77c...@4ax.com...

> On Fri, 07 Jul 2000 03:24:21 GMT, Icewind Chip
> <Drumm...@aol.SPAMSPAMSPAMcom> wrote:
>
> >Black Isle has had great success with the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons
> >label. Planescape Torment and Icewind Dale have realized the potential
> >of the license and the Infinity engine itself.
> >
> >But it is time to move on.
>
> Or at least diversify into sci-fi like you mentioned, while still
> profiting from the D&D crowd. I'd buy both types of games, myself...

I really hope that the D&D games keep on coming, but I would like to see
extra projects that explore other settings. We've already had 2 beautiful
sci-fi games (FO, FO2). I think it would be neat to see others as well.
Maybe something gothic (V:TM doesn't count for me because I don't do 3D
RPGs), maybe somthing *gasp* historical? We've got a lot of very cool
history on this planet, and I'm not talking medieval Europe. The myths and
gods of Greece and Rome are stories just begging to be told again and again;
there's the Arabian Nights; and on and on...

-Cay

--
Kennaway Byron MacGregor
Department of Biological Sciences, Brock University
St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada L2S 3A1

Morgan

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Jul 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/7/00
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IIRC, Fallout was initially going to use the GURPS system, but they
wanted to change things in a way that Steve Jackson disliked,
namely adding more stats. So they had to perturb their system far
enough away from GURPS to be considered original, but they kept
enough of the basic concepts to keep that nice consistent logical
feel that GURPS has. (As opposed to the arbitrary irrational rule
set known as D&D.)

--
Morgan

NFLed

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Jul 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/7/00
to
>I'm sure some of you guys who have been playing D&D for decades
>think it is the most intuitive thing in the world, but it is not. It
>could be made MUCH simpler.

Simple is not at all what I look for in a game or else I would
just stick with Diablo or even Deer Hunter.

Ed B.

[ . v/jek . ]

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Jul 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/7/00
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Don't forget about the BIS secrete project and FO3 which will
be in production soon (remember, Feargus just sent out a
"lead programmer wanted" message on another forum)?
The secrete project ISN'T a fantasy game.. but it WILL be using
an established RPGs rule set.. we just don't know which one..


(:: qiB ::)

[ . v/jek . ]

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Jul 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/7/00
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>IIRC, Fallout was initially going to use the GURPS system, but they

Icewind stated this in his first message.

(:: qiB ::)

[ . v/jek . ]

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Jul 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/7/00
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>If you want simple, play Diablo (1 or 2) Darkstone or Revenant. I for one
>do not want to see BIS stop making Dungeons and Dragons based games.

Ya ya ya.. he isn't talking about simplicity, he is talking about
originality..

check out Arcanum for an example of what he is speaking of..
an ORIGINAL game with and original, yet DEEP, system.

(:: qiB ::)

[ . v/jek . ]

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Jul 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/7/00
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>I feel like I am repeating myself, but again, look at Fallout.

Hey chip, have you taken a look at Arcanum.. it is made
by the fallout team and (from what they have told us about
the rule set) it looks to be very unique..

(:: qiB ::)

PonyBoy

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Jul 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/7/00
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Twin Ion Engine wrote in message <8k68fi$i8s$0...@pita.alt.net>...
>I think gamesites should have a poll to see what is a more popular
alternate
>RPG settings. RPG in this sense can be 3D (SS2, DE), pure action (diablo,
Nox)
>or stat-based (ad&d)
>
>Here are my suggestions...feel free to add or comment if this would appeal
to
>you :-
>
>1.) Space Opera
>Play characters like smuggler, mercenaries, diplomat, rebel leader, naval
>officers and bounty-hunters. Own space ships, travel to planet. This would
be
>great if someone could meld space-battle with FPS kind of settings. Can
also
>be isometric if done right.


Anyone here ever play Traveller? I am contiualy amazed that that license
has not been picked up for a CRPG. That was the evolutionary step for me
from AD&D. Anyone know what happend with the game? Have not played it in,
wow, like 18 yrs! Talk about a setting wide open with possibilities!

George

<snip>

ana...@netcom.com

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Jul 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/8/00
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Morgan <mor...@misleading.com> probably wrote:
: IIRC, Fallout was initially going to use the GURPS system, but they
: wanted to change things in a way that Steve Jackson disliked,

: namely adding more stats. So they had to perturb their system far
: enough away from GURPS to be considered original, but they kept
: enough of the basic concepts to keep that nice consistent logical
: feel that GURPS has. (As opposed to the arbitrary irrational rule
: set known as D&D.)

No.

Interplay and SJG had contractual problems regarding approval rights
over content.

SJG wanted to remove the PIP Boy cartoons from the character screen
and replace the execution scene in the intro movie. Interplay
(the Fallout team) felt that those two components were important
to the game.

The level of violence in the game had been previously shown to SJG
and no mention was made of it. The PIP Boy cartoons were just
darn cool and important for that Fallout style.

As happens in these matters, the Contract was referenced over who
had approval rights. When this happened, the current Interplay
lawyers discovered some basic flaws in the contract (the big issue
dealt with approval of the final game, and since approval of
content was the current problem, the lawyers got scared). The
contract had been written many years earlier by another set of
lawyers.

Attempts to renegotiate the contract, which is fairly common, failed.
Interplay had to invoke a clause in the contract to cancel.

It was never about the system. Both Interplay (Team Fallout) and
SJG were quite happy with the implementation.

pax,

--
Christopher Taylor - Game Designer, Gamer & Part^H^H^H^HFull-time EQ Addict
Political Correctness is another term for totalitarianism. - D. Prager
Ban Censorship Legalize Freedom Play Some Games
I work for Interplay Entertainment Corp, but these words are mine alone...

Icewind Chip

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Jul 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/8/00
to

Ahh yes. Let me guess, you also play wargames just so you can impress
your friends with how complex they are? Assuming that there are only
two degrees of an RPG, "AD&D" and "Diablo", is a little narrowminded,
don't you think?

Give me a break. Complexity for the sake of complexity is idiotic. If
a game can be made more intuitive, for chrissakes make it more
intuitive! At least make it consistent (AD&D is NOT consistent).

I feel like I am repeating myself, but again, look at Fallout. That
game has depth, but it makes sense. I love all the stats and stuff.
That is not my complaint with AD&D. My (minor) complaint with AD&D is
that parts of it are unnecesarily complex and that detracts from the
experience (My main reason for saying BIS should move away from AD&D was
diversity, though, not the AD&D system itself).

I want the challenge in my games to come from the actual gameplay, i.e.
"How do I defeat this boss?" or "How do I get past this obstacle?" The
stats and skills and attributes and whatnot are just an interface with
the game itself. If they are complicated in a way that hurts your
understanding of the game, then the developers have utterly failed.

Quatoria

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Jul 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/8/00
to
In the swirling mists of history, on 8 Jul 2000 01:30:43 GMT,
ana...@netcom.com wrote:

>he level of violence in the game had been previously shown to SJG
>and no mention was made of it. The PIP Boy cartoons were just
>darn cool and important for that Fallout style.

Absolutely. Fallout wouldn't have been Fallout without PIPboy!

-Quatoria
--
In this unpredictable, oftentimes contentious world,
sometimes you just have to sit back, take a moment to
reflect, and say "Well, I'll be a greased Jesus!"

Twin Ion Engine

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Jul 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/8/00
to
I think gamesites should have a poll to see what is a more popular alternate
RPG settings. RPG in this sense can be 3D (SS2, DE), pure action (diablo, Nox)
or stat-based (ad&d)

Here are my suggestions...feel free to add or comment if this would appeal to
you :-

1.) Space Opera
Play characters like smuggler, mercenaries, diplomat, rebel leader, naval
officers and bounty-hunters. Own space ships, travel to planet. This would be
great if someone could meld space-battle with FPS kind of settings. Can also
be isometric if done right.

2.) Sci-fi
Something like SS2 or DE. Basically set on earth's near future.

3.) Apocalpyse
The poor cousin to classic fantasy. Fallout would be nuclear apocalpyse. But
there could be other kinds. What about aftermath of a biological plague? Alien
invasion? Asteroid impact? Environmental disaster?

4.) "Wuxia"
For fans of Hong Kong movies like "Chinese Ghost Story", "The Swordsman". Of
course we will have fighting monks, swordsmen, taoist-priests, cult members,
and evil eunuchs. Fighters will have to get pugilistic manuals and develop
their "qi" and their "qing gong".

5.) Mecha
This would be a great idea for a diablo-like game. Imagine you select
different classes of mecha and outfit them differently. The mecha would be
more like Japanese anime mecha than the lumbering mech-warrior mecha.

6.)Modern day espionage/adventure
Play characters like James Bond or Lara croft. except that you develop your
character to be stealthy, acrobatic or martial.

7.) Western
Borrowing a little idea from the movie Shanghai noon. You can be a Chinese
martial-art guy (unarmed, melee), a cow-boy (guns & rifles) or an Indian
warrior (bows and tomahawks). Also another potential Diablo-like game.

8.) Cross-dimension
Arcanum has a good idea of setting elves to early 19th century. How about
magic and sci-fi? Magic and modern world? Imagine fighting demons with your
minigun.

9.) Authentic medieval
Swords and Axes without the magic. Play roles like the Knight of the Round
table. A game that entertains and teaches history.


Cay

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Jul 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/8/00
to

Twin Ion Engine <twi...@imperial.navy.squadron> wrote in message
news:8k68fi$i8s$0...@pita.alt.net...

> I think gamesites should have a poll to see what is a more popular
alternate
> RPG settings. RPG in this sense can be 3D (SS2, DE), pure action (diablo,
Nox)
> or stat-based (ad&d)

I refuse to play 3D RPGs, I love top-down isometric views like those used in
the BIS games. As far as alternate settings go, there are 2 basic ideas
that I am intersted in:

(1) Gothic - something along the lines of V:TM, but not the 3D game that was
just released.

(2) Historic - either Medieval Europe, Classical Greece (mythology) or
Middle Eastern/Asian (ie. Arabian Nights).

Led Mirage

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Jul 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/8/00
to
On Fri, 07 Jul 2000 11:03:02 -0400, Jacunta <jac...@jazzlover.com>
wrote:


>Lately I've encountered a worrisome thought: will they meet the same
>fate as Looking Glass? A great game company who actually cares about
>making great games, and is willing to take a chance on innovation. I
>know BG sold well, but what of these others? Planescape? IWD?

BIS ia a division of Interplay. If Interplay goes down, BIS goes with
it. If Interplay stays afloat, BIS stays afloat, because BIS makes
money. BTW you mean you haven't played Fallout 1?! You must, it's
better than FO2.

Led Mirage

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Jul 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/8/00
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On Fri, 07 Jul 2000 23:13:18 GMT, "Cay" <kennaway_...@yahoo.ca>
wrote:


>I really hope that the D&D games keep on coming, but I would like to see
>extra projects that explore other settings. We've already had 2 beautiful
>sci-fi games (FO, FO2). I think it would be neat to see others as well.
>Maybe something gothic (V:TM doesn't count for me because I don't do 3D
>RPGs), maybe somthing *gasp* historical? We've got a lot of very cool
>history on this planet, and I'm not talking medieval Europe. The myths and
>gods of Greece and Rome are stories just begging to be told again and again;
>there's the Arabian Nights; and on and on...

FOs are post-apocalyptic. I'd like to see a true sci. fi. game.
Historical? Com'on, historical is boring as hell. I get enough of
those with the sim games. And Greek and Roman myth HAVE been told
again and again. I don't need anymore of those. I need something that
is original and fires the imagination. That's what RPGs are about.

Led Mirage

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Jul 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/8/00
to
On Sat, 08 Jul 2000 01:39:48 GMT, Icewind Chip
<Drumm...@aol.SPAMSPAMSPAMcom> wrote:


>I feel like I am repeating myself, but again, look at Fallout. That
>game has depth, but it makes sense. I love all the stats and stuff.
>That is not my complaint with AD&D. My (minor) complaint with AD&D is
>that parts of it are unnecesarily complex and that detracts from the
>experience (My main reason for saying BIS should move away from AD&D was
>diversity, though, not the AD&D system itself).

Huh? With all the rules taken cared of by the computer, what's so
complex? I take it you don't GM games. You don't know what complex is
until you run Rolemaster or GURPS with it's numerous supplmentary
rules. Different genre demands different rules. No single rule set
fits every genre perfectly. AD&D does what it was intended to do very
well. That is, it's excellent for running heroic fantasy games..

Cay

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Jul 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/8/00
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Led Mirage <lmi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:396edde2...@news.netvigator.com...

Well, everybody has different tastes. Maybe those aren't good ideas from a
marketing perspective, but I wouldn't say that historical is "boring as
hell". My favourite books from the fantasy section are the Jack Whyte
"Skystone" series which are in fact not fantasy at all, but historical
fiction. They tell the story of King Arthur from a very realistic
perspective, starting a few generations earlier with the Roman occupation of
Brittania. The post-Roman era in Britain is a time period that most people
don't know a lot about, and I could imagine a very rich RPG being set in
that sort of intense, volatile atmosphere. But that's just something *I*
would like, you may very well find it boring.

Icewind Chip

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Jul 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/8/00
to
Twin Ion Engine wrote:
> 5.) Mecha
> This would be a great idea for a diablo-like game. Imagine you select
> different classes of mecha and outfit them differently. The mecha would be
> more like Japanese anime mecha than the lumbering mech-warrior mecha.
>

This is a great idea. There is actually a PlayStation RPG called
Xenogears where you build up your mech as well as your character
throughout the game.

Lost Dragon

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Jul 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/8/00
to
>Anyone here ever play Traveller? I am contiualy amazed that that license
>has not been picked up for a CRPG. That was the evolutionary step for me

GURPS (sort of) picked it up a year or two ago with "GURPS:
Traveller".

Traveller went through several iterations (and publishers), a few of
which were unpopular and just about killed the game as a whole. The
author is still around, but I can't tell that he's produced anything
in a long time.

There may be better licenses around now. Maybe a d20 Gammaworld
setting would be interesting.. Alternity looked promising, but
WotC canned it.


/| .oo__. A .---.=- -= Lost Dragon =- -=.---. U
{ \| ,-'' L |_O_|==- -= Forever Dead Forgotten Lie =- -==|_O_| D
`,_/'(_)\_ I | | |==- Remembered Souls, They Cannot Die -==| | | I
<...{_)_)_'' D `---`===-- http://www.lostdragon.com/ --==='---' C

Joe62

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Jul 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/8/00
to
"Max Sterling" <ma...@SPAMgamersfocus.com> wrote:

>If you want simple, play Diablo (1 or 2) Darkstone or Revenant.

He didn't ask for simple, but a game not based on arbitrary
conventions of a board game. And I agree. I'm intrigued by the quality
of IWD, but probably won't get it since I'm not into the D&D board
games.

Joe

ana...@netcom.com

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Jul 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/8/00
to
PonyBoy <not...@later.com> probably wrote:
: Anyone here ever play Traveller? I am contiualy amazed that that license

: has not been picked up for a CRPG. That was the evolutionary step for me
: from AD&D. Anyone know what happend with the game? Have not played it in,

: wow, like 18 yrs! Talk about a setting wide open with possibilities!

A MegaTraveller game was released around 10 years ago or so.

Tom Meyer

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Jul 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/8/00
to
"Twin Ion Engine" <twi...@imperial.navy.squadron> wrote in message
news:8k68fi$i8s$0...@pita.alt.net...
> I think gamesites should have a poll to see what is a more popular
alternate
> RPG settings. RPG in this sense can be 3D (SS2, DE), pure action (diablo,
Nox)
> or stat-based (ad&d)
>
> 5.) Mecha
> This would be a great idea for a diablo-like game. Imagine you select
> different classes of mecha and outfit them differently. The mecha would be
> more like Japanese anime mecha than the lumbering mech-warrior mecha.
>
> 6.)Modern day espionage/adventure
> Play characters like James Bond or Lara croft. except that you develop
your
> character to be stealthy, acrobatic or martial.
>
> 7.) Western
> Borrowing a little idea from the movie Shanghai noon. You can be a Chinese
> martial-art guy (unarmed, melee), a cow-boy (guns & rifles) or an Indian
> warrior (bows and tomahawks). Also another potential Diablo-like game.
>
> 8.) Cross-dimension
> Arcanum has a good idea of setting elves to early 19th century. How about
> magic and sci-fi? Magic and modern world? Imagine fighting demons with
your
> minigun.
>
> 9.) Authentic medieval
> Swords and Axes without the magic. Play roles like the Knight of the Round
> table. A game that entertains and teaches history.
>

All these genres sound great for RPG's, I already want to play them. Here's
one you forgot, though: an RPG where traditional physics do not apply. I've
posted my ramblings about this before, and I'm talking about stuff like
RPG's where time manipulation is a skill, or where there are 5 or 6
dimensions besides space and time...or where you play as radically different
aliens; not like in Albion where the aliens had humanoid forms, I'm talking
totally alien forms...but companies will never take these risks, which is
too bad.

Tom

Twin Ion Engine

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Jul 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/9/00
to
Well, ideas are free (although Bill Gates might beg to differ). All it takes
is for suits to have the balls to OK the projects. The fact that everyone
sticks to fantasy RPG shows the "mee-too" mentality. I beg for the day where
game-programming tools would be as easy to use as a text editor and anyone
with 2-bit talent can make game easily (heard Auran is doing that right now,
making game programming tools, that is). This way, we will have a lot of free
games and different ideas. Not many will have high quality but you have to
have a mass first in order to get the few gems.

In article <396746...@aol.SPAMSPAMSPAMcom>, Drumm...@SPAMNOSPAMaol.com
wrote:


>Twin Ion Engine wrote:
>> 5.) Mecha
>> This would be a great idea for a diablo-like game. Imagine you select
>> different classes of mecha and outfit them differently. The mecha would be
>> more like Japanese anime mecha than the lumbering mech-warrior mecha.
>>
>

Lost Dragon

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Jul 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/9/00
to
>A MegaTraveller game was released around 10 years ago or so.

Yah.. Nothing has been done with that license since though. Not
on the PC anyway.

inte...@my-deja.com

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Jul 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/9/00
to

Just a quick point of clarification here... We haven't said anything
about the setting of our new project, so it may very well be fantasy,
or possibly not. It's not something we're comfortable (or at a point)
we can talk about yet because things are very, very early in
development. As we're able to talk about things, we'll put them up
at our temporary webhome: www.dirty.org/BIS/

As for the topic of this thread... I think you'll see all kinds of
RPGS from us in the next few years, both within D&D and outside.
I think most people here are interested in doing so many things
that the desire to work outside of an established system is very,
very appealing. This being said, Planescape in NO WAY felt
restricting or confining, primarily due to the nature of that
setting. I fell in love with it during the creation of Torment.
Icewind, on the other hand, had me back in the box, thinking
in compliance mind. :)

>Lately I've encountered a worrisome thought: will they meet the same
>fate as Looking Glass? A great game company who actually cares about
>making great games, and is willing to take a chance on innovation. I
>know BG sold well, but what of these others? Planescape? IWD?

IWD is doing incredibly well for us, especially considering how
short the development time was for it. The opening sales for
the game have been very, very good, and we're pretty excited that
so many people are enjoying the game. Torment has also done
just fine for us... just because something doesn't sell five
gazillion units doesn't mean it isn't profitable.

Scott Warner
swa...@blackisle.com


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

WCJTSDAD39

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Jul 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/9/00
to
>
>>Anyone here ever play Traveller? I am contiualy amazed that that license
>>has not been picked up for a CRPG. That was the evolutionary step for me
>

>
>>Anyone here ever play Traveller? I am contiualy amazed that that license
>>has not been picked up for a CRPG. That was the evolutionary step for me
>

There WAS a CRPG version of MegaTraveller, the first was "MegaTraveller 1:
Legacy of the Ancients", and there was a MegaTraveller 2,

I have both of them, and have played MegaTraveller 1, and it is a fairly good
game.
Don't really know why it didn't sell as well as I thought it might have.

There was once a game called "Chivalry and Sorcery" years ago, tried to be a
competitior to AD&D..
was very highly detailed.

I would dearly love to see that made into an RPG.

Quatoria

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Jul 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/9/00
to
In the swirling mists of history, on Sun, 09 Jul 2000 19:59:26 GMT,
inte...@my-deja.com wrote:

>IWD is doing incredibly well for us, especially considering how
>short the development time was for it. The opening sales for
>the game have been very, very good, and we're pretty excited that
>so many people are enjoying the game. Torment has also done
>just fine for us... just because something doesn't sell five
>gazillion units doesn't mean it isn't profitable.

That's good to hear, Chris. It frequently feels like you guys are the
only people making good RPG's for the PC, anymore. You're certainly
making the best ones around.

Brian H.

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Jul 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/10/00
to

Twin Ion Engine <twi...@imperial.navy.squadron> wrote in message
news:8k68fi$i8s$0...@pita.alt.net...
> I think gamesites should have a poll to see what is a more popular
alternate
> RPG settings. RPG in this sense can be 3D (SS2, DE), pure action (diablo,
Nox)
> or stat-based (ad&d)
>
> Here are my suggestions...feel free to add or comment if this would appeal
to
> you :-
>
> 1.) Space Opera
> Play characters like smuggler, mercenaries, diplomat, rebel leader, naval
> officers and bounty-hunters. Own space ships, travel to planet. This would
be
> great if someone could meld space-battle with FPS kind of settings. Can
also
> be isometric if done right.

A very good idea but could be difficult to implement. If not design
properly, it could become a space-sim and being discussed in csipgs.

>
> 2.) Sci-fi
> Something like SS2 or DE. Basically set on earth's near future.
>

Very good. How about some more open areas with space ships flying on the
sky?

> 3.) Apocalpyse
> The poor cousin to classic fantasy. Fallout would be nuclear apocalpyse.
But
> there could be other kinds. What about aftermath of a biological plague?
Alien
> invasion? Asteroid impact? Environmental disaster?
>

The most impressive elements of this settings are the people. How they
implement the people survived in such a harsh situation is very appealing to
me.

> 4.) "Wuxia"
> For fans of Hong Kong movies like "Chinese Ghost Story", "The Swordsman".
Of
> course we will have fighting monks, swordsmen, taoist-priests, cult
members,
> and evil eunuchs. Fighters will have to get pugilistic manuals and develop
> their "qi" and their "qing gong".

Oh, c'mon. Every week there're tens of such comics floating around in HK
and I'm sick of them.

>
> 5.) Mecha
> This would be a great idea for a diablo-like game. Imagine you select
> different classes of mecha and outfit them differently. The mecha would be
> more like Japanese anime mecha than the lumbering mech-warrior mecha.
>

Great. I like to see a Mechwarrior RPG.

> 6.)Modern day espionage/adventure
> Play characters like James Bond or Lara croft. except that you develop
your
> character to be stealthy, acrobatic or martial.
>

Isn't it something like #2 above?

> 7.) Western
> Borrowing a little idea from the movie Shanghai noon. You can be a Chinese
> martial-art guy (unarmed, melee), a cow-boy (guns & rifles) or an Indian
> warrior (bows and tomahawks). Also another potential Diablo-like game.
>

Hm... I'm afraid that would be too "realistic".

> 8.) Cross-dimension
> Arcanum has a good idea of setting elves to early 19th century. How about
> magic and sci-fi? Magic and modern world? Imagine fighting demons with
your
> minigun.
>

Yes, this one is beyond imagination.

> 9.) Authentic medieval
> Swords and Axes without the magic. Play roles like the Knight of the Round
> table. A game that entertains and teaches history.
>

That would be boring.


Brack!

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Jul 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/11/00
to
On Mon, 10 Jul 2000 14:17:25 +0800, "Brian H."
<bh1234...@nospam.please.ismart.net> wrote:

>> 9.) Authentic medieval
>> Swords and Axes without the magic. Play roles like the Knight of the Round
>> table. A game that entertains and teaches history.
>>
>
>That would be boring.

aRRRR! *clubs Brian with his +5 copy of "Darklands"*

Brack! Deploy Spam-Away(tm)!: |"What a good little boy you are,
<root@[127.0.0.1]> | Scotty... I could just pinch that
<MAILER-DAEMON@[127.0.0.1]> | chubby little cheek of yours until
<abuse@[127.0.0.1]> | it turns black and falls off of your
<.@[127.0.0.1]> UNSUBSCRIBE | fucking face, you adorable little boy."

WCJTSDAD39

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Jul 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/11/00
to
>
>
> Hey, that reminds me... There supposedly was also MegaTraveller 3:
>Unknown Worlds - I've spoken with someone who swears that it exists. It was
>released by some other company than the one that did the parts 1 and 2 - by
>MicroPlay, I believe
>
> I've been unable to find it, and I can find only _one_ mention of it on the
>WWW. Does anyone here know if it really exists?
>

Sorry, but the versions of MegaTraveller 1 and 2 that I own were done by
Paragon Software.. wonder if they are still in business?

Knight37

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Jul 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/11/00
to
Quoting ana...@netcom.com from Sat, 08 Jul 2000 01:30:43 GMT:

>Interplay and SJG had contractual problems regarding approval rights
>over content.
>
>SJG wanted to remove the PIP Boy cartoons from the character screen
>and replace the execution scene in the intro movie. Interplay
>(the Fallout team) felt that those two components were important
>to the game.
>

>The level of violence in the game had been previously shown to SJG


>and no mention was made of it. The PIP Boy cartoons were just
>darn cool and important for that Fallout style.

Wow.

Steve Jackson Games wussed out. I never thought I'd ever hear that, but
there you go. The company responsible for Car Wars (the antithesis of
politically correct), the company who "stuck it to The Man" with the "in
your face, Secret Service!" GURPS Cyberpunk, wussed out when it came to
computer games.

How sad.

Knight37

ana...@netcom.com

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Jul 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/11/00
to
Knight37 <knig...@gamespotmail.com> probably wrote:
: Wow.

: Steve Jackson Games wussed out. I never thought I'd ever hear that, but
: there you go. The company responsible for Car Wars (the antithesis of
: politically correct), the company who "stuck it to The Man" with the "in
: your face, Secret Service!" GURPS Cyberpunk, wussed out when it came to
: computer games.

I don't think SJG wussed out. They wanted to protect their image of
GURPS. It certainly was in their best interest to protest over the
content of Fallout if they felt it would associate GURPS with material
contrary to their best image.

The disagreement really boiled down to contractural and communication
problems (with some element of missing trust).

Quatoria

unread,
Jul 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/11/00
to
In the swirling mists of history, on 11 Jul 2000 18:07:28 GMT,
ana...@netcom.com wrote:

>I don't think SJG wussed out. They wanted to protect their image of
>GURPS. It certainly was in their best interest to protest over the
>content of Fallout if they felt it would associate GURPS with material
>contrary to their best image.

GURPS has an image?

Clogar

unread,
Jul 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/11/00
to
Joe62 wrote:
>
[snip]

> He didn't ask for simple, but a game not based on arbitrary
> conventions of a board game.

The irony being that most AD&D games don't use boards. JAFTOHA.

> And I agree. I'm intrigued by the quality
> of IWD, but probably won't get it since I'm not into the D&D board
> games.

I bought it and got bored with it quickly, which is why I
don't recommend it to the people I know. Ah, well!


-= Clogar

Clogar

unread,
Jul 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/11/00
to
Quatoria wrote:
>
[snip]
> GURPS has an image?

Yes, and a fairly decent one at that! :)


-= Clogar

Twin Ion Engine

unread,
Jul 12, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/12/00
to
In article <8kbptu$1j...@imsp212.netvigator.com>, "Brian H." <bh1234...@nospam.please.ismart.net> wrote:
>
>Twin Ion Engine <twi...@imperial.navy.squadron> wrote in message
>news:8k68fi$i8s$0...@pita.alt.net...
>> I think gamesites should have a poll to see what is a more popular
>alternate
>> RPG settings. RPG in this sense can be 3D (SS2, DE), pure action (diablo,
>Nox)
>> or stat-based (ad&d)
>>
>> Here are my suggestions...feel free to add or comment if this would appeal
>to
>> you :-
>>
>> 1.) Space Opera
>> Play characters like smuggler, mercenaries, diplomat, rebel leader, naval
>> officers and bounty-hunters. Own space ships, travel to planet. This would
>be
>> great if someone could meld space-battle with FPS kind of settings. Can
>also
>> be isometric if done right.
>
>A very good idea but could be difficult to implement. If not design
>properly, it could become a space-sim and being discussed in csipgs.
>
I know. The designer may have to eschew the ship-aspect. Maybe everyone travel
by teleporters or something. Like in Battlefield Earth. No one says space
opera has to have space-ships. In fact Alien/Aliens and Predator movies
focussed more on ground side than in space.

>>
>> 2.) Sci-fi
>> Something like SS2 or DE. Basically set on earth's near future.
>>
>
>Very good. How about some more open areas with space ships flying on the
>sky?

Doesn't matter, as long as it is a possible futuristic science. The focus here
would be more on man and science rather than alien invasion (which is space
opera above)

>
>> 3.) Apocalpyse
>> The poor cousin to classic fantasy. Fallout would be nuclear apocalpyse.
>But
>> there could be other kinds. What about aftermath of a biological plague?
>Alien
>> invasion? Asteroid impact? Environmental disaster?
>>
>
>The most impressive elements of this settings are the people. How they
>implement the people survived in such a harsh situation is very appealing to
>me.
>

Exactly. This would have the strongest story potential. In fact, the whole
game could be about what caused the apolcalpyse.

>> 4.) "Wuxia"
>> For fans of Hong Kong movies like "Chinese Ghost Story", "The Swordsman".
>Of
>> course we will have fighting monks, swordsmen, taoist-priests, cult
>members,
>> and evil eunuchs. Fighters will have to get pugilistic manuals and develop
>> their "qi" and their "qing gong".
>
>Oh, c'mon. Every week there're tens of such comics floating around in HK
>and I'm sick of them.
>

Yes, but the american audience has not been exposed to them. I am thinking of
using the theme but implemented U.S. style instead of the piss-poor design of
the Taiwanese style (which is really a Japanese RPG-wannabe style). Think AD&D
but with a whole new set of rules and classes.

>>
>> 5.) Mecha
>> This would be a great idea for a diablo-like game. Imagine you select
>> different classes of mecha and outfit them differently. The mecha would be
>> more like Japanese anime mecha than the lumbering mech-warrior mecha.
>>
>
>Great. I like to see a Mechwarrior RPG.
>
>> 6.)Modern day espionage/adventure
>> Play characters like James Bond or Lara croft. except that you develop
>your
>> character to be stealthy, acrobatic or martial.
>>
>
>Isn't it something like #2 above?

#2 is sci-fi with futuristic elements. Blade Runner, Total Recall that kind of
thing. This is more modern, with modern limitation, modern weaponries.
Absolutely no sci-fi stuff. Even Q's invention are possible technologies. You
never seen bond zap people with a ray gun do you? Of course, "modern" can also
mean from as early as WW2 era.

>
>> 7.) Western
>> Borrowing a little idea from the movie Shanghai noon. You can be a Chinese
>> martial-art guy (unarmed, melee), a cow-boy (guns & rifles) or an Indian
>> warrior (bows and tomahawks). Also another potential Diablo-like game.
>>
>
>Hm... I'm afraid that would be too "realistic".
>


>> 8.) Cross-dimension
>> Arcanum has a good idea of setting elves to early 19th century. How about
>> magic and sci-fi? Magic and modern world? Imagine fighting demons with
>your
>> minigun.
>>
>
>Yes, this one is beyond imagination.
>

>> 9.) Authentic medieval
>> Swords and Axes without the magic. Play roles like the Knight of the Round
>> table. A game that entertains and teaches history.
>>
>
>That would be boring.
>
>

Not if it is designed and implemented properly.

Al

unread,
Jul 12, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/12/00
to
I just found a piece of toast from Twin Ion Engine with the following
message inscribed:

>>> 9.) Authentic medieval
>>> Swords and Axes without the magic. Play roles like the Knight of the
>>> Round table. A game that entertains and teaches history.
>>
>>That would be boring.
>
>Not if it is designed and implemented properly.

Magic-less medieval can get _very_ tense. Magic always seemed like an
escape tactic, to me. I mean, in most books\games\movies, it doesn't
really have a structured form. They can't explain to me why the society
just doesn't use magic to replace technology. They can't explain why
a magician can cast a few arbitrary spells, but not do this or that.
Not that it's a bad thing, but magic-less just seems a lot more grittier,
harder, edgier.

--
Al
http://members.home.com/ajyi

You can always procrastinate tomorrow!

Hong Ooi

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Jul 12, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/12/00
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On Fri, 07 Jul 2000 05:20:08 GMT, Lost Dragon
<lostd...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>>> Let's get some sci-fi RPG's, or other types of worlds. Let's get a game
>>Torment.
>
>I wouldn't call Torment sci-fi.

I wouldn't call it fantasy either.


--
Hong Ooi | "P.S. I'm not psychic, I just seem that
hong...@maths.anu.edu.au | way because of my astronomical native
http://www.zip.com.au/~hong | intelligence."
Sydney, Australia | -- CMB

Knight37

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Jul 12, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/12/00
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Quoting ana...@netcom.com from Tue, 11 Jul 2000 18:07:28 GMT:

>Knight37 <knig...@gamespotmail.com> probably wrote:
>: Wow.
>
>: Steve Jackson Games wussed out. I never thought I'd ever hear that,
>: but there you go. The company responsible for Car Wars (the antithesis
>: of politically correct), the company who "stuck it to The Man" with
>: the "in your face, Secret Service!" GURPS Cyberpunk, wussed out when
>: it came to computer games.
>

>I don't think SJG wussed out. They wanted to protect their image of
>GURPS. It certainly was in their best interest to protest over the
>content of Fallout if they felt it would associate GURPS with material
>contrary to their best image.
>

>The disagreement really boiled down to contractural and communication
>problems (with some element of missing trust).

No, it's clear they wussed out.

They let "image" take precedence over "art." ;)

Knight37

Led Mirage

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Jul 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/13/00
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On Wed, 12 Jul 2000 15:23:25 GMT, Hong Ooi <hong...@maths.anu.edu.au>
wrote:


>
>I wouldn't call it fantasy either.

It's fantasy. Just not Medievalesque or Tolkienesque fantasy.

Hong Ooi

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Jul 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/13/00
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On Thu, 13 Jul 2000 07:00:55 GMT, lmi...@yahoo.com (Led Mirage) wrote:

>On Wed, 12 Jul 2000 15:23:25 GMT, Hong Ooi <hong...@maths.anu.edu.au>
>wrote:

[Re: Torment]

>
>>
>>I wouldn't call it fantasy either.
>
>It's fantasy. Just not Medievalesque or Tolkienesque fantasy.

It's a tribute to the strength/universality of Torment's story that it
works even in spite of its setting. Planescape has always struck me as a
random bunch of locales in search of a genre.

If anything, Planescape reminds me more of SF, the way it seems to
emphasise strangeness for its own sake. Just consider: you've got your
weird alien races, I mean planar beings; your exotic planets and star
systems, er, I mean planes of existence; and your mysterious techie
artifacts, er, I mean magic and spells and stuff. And then you've got
Sigil, a neutral meeting ground where everyone can sit down and talk
without worrying too much about fights breaking out. I wonder if the
Lady of Pain's surname is Ivanova?


Hong "it's fantasy, Jim, but not as we know it" Ooi

Knight37

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Jul 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/13/00
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Quoting hong...@maths.anu.edu.au (Hong Ooi) from Wed, 12 Jul 2000
15:23:25 GMT:

>On Fri, 07 Jul 2000 05:20:08 GMT, Lost Dragon
><lostd...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>>>> Let's get some sci-fi RPG's, or other types of worlds. Let's get a
>>>> game
>>>Torment.
>>
>>I wouldn't call Torment sci-fi.
>

>I wouldn't call it fantasy either.

What would you call it, then?

It's got magic. Funny races. Monsters.

Not space ships. Computers. Ray guns.

Sounds a lot more like fantasy than sci-fi. :)

Knight37

Hong Ooi

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Jul 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/13/00
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On Thu, 13 Jul 2000 17:14:51 GMT, knig...@gamespotmail.com (Knight37)
wrote:

>Quoting hong...@maths.anu.edu.au (Hong Ooi) from Wed, 12 Jul 2000
>15:23:25 GMT:
>
>>On Fri, 07 Jul 2000 05:20:08 GMT, Lost Dragon
>><lostd...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>> Let's get some sci-fi RPG's, or other types of worlds. Let's get a
>>>>> game
>>>>Torment.
>>>
>>>I wouldn't call Torment sci-fi.
>>
>>I wouldn't call it fantasy either.
>
>What would you call it, then?
>
>It's got magic.

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

>Funny races.

= Funny aliens.

>Monsters.

= Monsters.

>
>Not space ships.

Who needs warp drives when you've got planar portals?

>Computers.

See comment re sufficiently advanced technology.

>Ray guns.

= Boom spells, aka "toys for the boys".

>
>Sounds a lot more like fantasy than sci-fi. :)

I beg to differ. ;)

Knight37

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Jul 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/13/00
to
Quoting hong...@maths.anu.edu.au (Hong Ooi) from Thu, 13 Jul 2000 16:55:21
GMT:

>On Thu, 13 Jul 2000 07:00:55 GMT, lmi...@yahoo.com (Led Mirage) wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 12 Jul 2000 15:23:25 GMT, Hong Ooi <hong...@maths.anu.edu.au>
>>wrote:
>
>[Re: Torment]
>
>>
>>>

>>>I wouldn't call it fantasy either.
>>

>>It's fantasy. Just not Medievalesque or Tolkienesque fantasy.
>
>It's a tribute to the strength/universality of Torment's story that it
>works even in spite of its setting. Planescape has always struck me as a
>random bunch of locales in search of a genre.
>
>If anything, Planescape reminds me more of SF, the way it seems to
>emphasise strangeness for its own sake. Just consider: you've got your
>weird alien races, I mean planar beings; your exotic planets and star
>systems, er, I mean planes of existence; and your mysterious techie
>artifacts, er, I mean magic and spells and stuff. And then you've got
>Sigil, a neutral meeting ground where everyone can sit down and talk
>without worrying too much about fights breaking out. I wonder if the
>Lady of Pain's surname is Ivanova?

Well no wonder you think it's science fiction.

You think Babylon 5 is science fiction. :)

Knight37


Giovanni H.

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Jul 14, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/14/00
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Hah, one of my friends once said that PS : T is boring, he said that there's
too much conversation to remember, not many action and the interface is
making it hard to know which PC's or NPC's currently talking, I guess
different people got different preference.
Clogar <clog...@nospam.com> wrote in message
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