Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss

MM7: Finished, Comments and Suggestions (long)

873 views
Skip to first unread message

Stephen Gorrell

unread,
Aug 15, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/15/99
to
Well, I finally finished the game, and enjoyed the heck out of it. In case
anyone is counting, I finished in just over 3 years at level 65, on the Path
of Light, with a final score of 10,075.

In the course of playing I had a number of thoughts about various aspects of
the game that I would like to pass on. Maybe someone at 3DO/NWC can add
them to the pile of stuff to look through when they start thinking about
MM8.

Party Creation

The specialization of skills by character class made this a whole new
ballgame over MM6. I jumped in, grabbed the default party, and started
hacking away. By the time I got through my castle in Harmondale I felt I
was ready to pick the party I wanted to live with and go. Some 20 (and I
ain't kidding either) party combinations and false starts later I finally
had one that, although lacking in a couple of areas, worked the best for me.
I ended up with KMCS. If I were going to start over again, I would probably
go KMAS. Might rocks in MM7, the Knight & Monk are positively brutal up
close, and the Cleric can hold his own with the mace. My Sorcerer did
pretty well with a pair of heavily +ed daggers, but since I never needed to
use magic attacks I'd take her as an Archer instead (good ranged fighter and
I can still get Fly, Water Walk, Wizard Eye, Torch Light, and Town Portal).
The only GM Elemental spell I would even miss would be Lloyds Beacon, but I
used it very little, and then only to haul junk out to sell to make some
room in my inventory.

One suggestion on character voices - avoid the high, whiny ones. They get
old really quick, especially if they say the same damn six words every time
they take a minor hit. "Oof"s and "ouch"es are fine for the "just a
scratch"s, with a nice snappy comeback when things get serious. About the
time my Cassandra would pipe up after taking a hard blow with "I'm not dead
yet!" I knew things were getting serious for the home team.

Skills

I like the specialization system. It made character creation a real
strategic element in the game. Some are clearly more useful than others.
Here are a few thoughts.

Magic - I'd like to see this broken up for the secondary magic users. No
change for the S&C - they should be able to GM everything. But a Druid
should be able to GM Earth, or a Paladin GM Spirit. It makes sense for the
character role. The remaining magics could be set at a higher or lower
level based on how close or far they are from the character type. A Ranger
who could GM Water would be a great addition to a party who didn't want a
Sorcerer but still would like to travel quickly (a Ranger specialty). Right
now a Ranger is so general that it's a pretty weak choice.

Weapons - This weapon skills worked fine for me. Nice balance.

Disarm Trap - I was concerned about this one. Path of Light without a Thief
can only get to Expert. I spent a few horseshoes on my Monk and then bought
a +14 Disarm ring in Deyja, and that got me to 24, which was fine until late
in the game, by which time I just ignored them.

Perception - Nice to have, but Expert level Wizard Eye will get you through
just fine.

Merchant - Once I GM'd my Cleric in this the money just piled up. By the
end I just left anything I couldn't use to upgrade my equipment laying on
the ground.

Learning - The most bang for the buck at level 1. Acquired it and forgot
it.

Meditation - Like Learning, by the time I had Skill Points to burn on this I
already had more Spell Points than I ever used. Acquired it and forgot it.

Body Building - Not an early priority, but nice once I could afford it.

Identify Item - Not required, but a huge convenience, especially if you
wanted to keep from getting ripped off by the ore smiths in Erathia (see
Cheats below). I hired a Scholar NPC as soon as I could and never invested
a Skill Point in it.

Repair - The nice thing about this skill is that by the time you need a high
level in it, you can afford the Skill Points necessary to get a high level
in it. I didn't start breaking armor and weapons until I ran into the
Titans, and by then my Knight was already GM in everything that counted. I
just wish he could fix something without having to do the inventory shuffle.

Identify Monster - never used it.

Armsmaster - Also not an early priority, but nice once I could afford it.

Stealing - The opposite of Repair. That is to say, by the time you could
afford to invest in it, you're past the point of needing it. High fines if
you're caught. Can't steal spell books from Guilds. Can't sell stolen
merchandise. Useless.

Alchemy - This falls in the "more trouble than it's worth" bucket. All that
carrying and mixing for stuff that a) I can do quicker and easier with a
spell, or b) I don't need. We REALLY need to be able to stack reagents,
folks.

NPCs

Mostly useless. Has anybody ever hired a Cook, or a Guide? Who cares how
long a map crossing takes. (Hint: they all take from 2-10 seconds depending
on how fast your system is, Guide or no guide) The NPCs that are useful, a
Gatemaster if you are short on Elemental Magic for instance, cost WAY too
much for what they give.

The Scholar is an exception to the above. An NPC that replaces one entire
skill, gives an Experience bonus, and only costs 5%. The Banker is fine
too. Hire one to pay for your Scholar.

What I would like to see is other NPCs like the Scholar that can cover a
full skill gap. If no one on my team can Disarm, a +6 Disarm NPC isn't
going to help much. What I need is a "Expert" disarmer, or a "Master"
disarmer. Likewise, If you want to play around with Alchemy but don't have
the skill, getting a +6 NPC won't help. Without higher levels you can only
mix basic potions - period.

Is there any particular reason why, other than tradition, you can only have
two NPCs on your party? Given the NPCs available it's not an issue at the
moment, but with better NPCs I would want to hire more. A few more
nice-looking ones wouldn't hurt either. I'm going to be staring at them for
a LONG time.

I started playing Might and Magic with MM6, so I can't be sure, but I'm
guessing things like map crossing times and food were more important in
previous releases, and that they're still around from habit. Going forward,
I would suggest that the entire NPC list be put to the following test before
it's copied to another release. Namely, ask a couple of dozen experienced
M&M players if they would ever consider hiring this NPC, and if the answer
is no, ditch 'em.

Quests

A nice mix from simple to daunting. The Light/Dark choice was a very nice
addition and added a lot to the game. The real purpose of the Obelisk and
Acromage quests, getting you to visit all regions and explore all areas of
the map, is fine, but again. by the time you do this, the treasure is pretty
meaningless. I found all 14 obelisks, but by then I had finished Colony Zod
and was on my way to the Lincoln, so I never even bothered to go get the
stuff.

Dungeons

The smaller, tighter dungeons are a BIG improvement. The Tomb of Varn in
MM6 was bloody awful! I hate being dumped in huge empty rooms full of
dozens of monsters. My least favorite in MM7 was, no big shock, The Arena.
I dislike it for the same reason. It was made even worse by a) not being
able to save, and b) repeatedly locking up my machine, which meant just
about the time I had it won I would have to start over. I was not saying
kind words by the time I finished my Knight's Champion quest.

I had gangs of fun in, of all places, The Titan Stronghold. Nice long halls
to chase up and down, unconvoluted layout, big slow Titans, tough but not
too tough dragons, great treasure. I didn't have an Archer so for me it was
a side quest. By the time I did it my party was strong enough to go toe-to
toe with a Titan or Dragon without too much trouble, which probably helped.
I also liked the tunnel dungeons for the same reason. I guess hit and run
is my style.

One last thing, running around in the Lincoln was a bit too reminiscent of
the computer complexes in Doom.

Weapons

WHERE THE HELL ARE THE DECENT STAFFS??? I was halfway through the game
before I saw anything better than the stick I started with. I never found a
really good one. The one artifact I did find I couldn't use because it was
Dark Path only.

I wasn't impressed with the blasters either. I gave one to my Sorcerer, but
let everyone else keep what they had. Again, my fighting style was to move
in close and bash 'em. Most battles were very short.

I also don't care for blasters for another reason. To me it's kind'a like
going to one of those Martial Arts movies where they spend the first 100
minutes of the movie showing the boy whose family has been wronged train and
grow and develop his skills under the stern but patient tutelage of his
Master in preparation for righting the wrong. Then he gets to the big
climax, and picks up a gun and shoots the bad guy. It takes skill to use a
sword or cast magic, but any whimpy-assed fool can shoot a gun. That's not
what I trained my team for.

User Interface

Please fix it so that I can open the spell book, then change characters.
Here's what happens. I click on the Cleric, cast a spell - Regeneration
say, and the book closes. Ok, fine. It also switches to the next active
character, say my Sorcerer. But I want to cast Regeneration again for the
next character. So I click back on my Cleric and hit the spell book, and
the Sorcerer's spell book pops open. The Cleric wasn't "ready" so I didn't
actually select him when I clicked on him. But he's ready now, so I click
on him and nothing happens. I have to close the Sorcerer 's spell book,
then click on the Cleric, then open the Cleric's spell book. I know better,
but I do this again and again.

While you're at it, add a "spell macro" capability. Even with Day of the
Gods, Day of Protection, and Hour of Power, I still took me 10 or 11 casts
to get my party ready for combat. (the three above, Preservation,
Regeneration 4 times, Hammer Hands, Protection from Magic, and Torch Light
if we were underground.)

Crashes and Hangs

Pretty minimal, until I upgraded my SB Live! to the 2.1 drivers and enabled
accelerated 3d audio, then I was crashing all over the place. I had to turn
it off.

Also, whether it's your code, some vendor's driver, or the OS itself,
crashes do happen. Keep this in mind next time you decide to make some
dungeon more "challenging" by not allowing saves in an area. No saves,
coupled with a tendency to crash, can take the experience from "challenging"
to "extremely frustrating" in a hurry.

Cheats

Everybody's philosophy is different when it comes to what is or is not
cheating in a RPG game. Most agree that using a character editor is
cheating. Some would say that saving before entering a dungeon, then
restoring if you die, is cheating. Or buying the Strategy Guide. Or
reading the newsgroup for hints. Or taking advantage of an AI error or bug
to get monsters stuck where you can hit them but they can't hit you.

My approach is simple. I will use whatever is provided in the game to the
best advantage I can, including Save/Restore. I'll save before handing my
only piece of Stalt-laced Ore to the smith or drinking from a well, and
restore if I get a crummy +4 set of leather armor or poisoned. I don't use
a character editor. If cheat codes were available I wouldn't use them
either. But that's just me.

The one thing I did discover that is probably a bug but worked out extremely
well is what I call "rapidfire". I discovered it while in the Titan
Stronghold. I'd just killed Tolberti so my Sorcerer had a blaster pistol.
Everybody else had conventional weapons. What I did was move close to a
Titan, then entered turn-based mode and attacked by holding down the A key.
Being impatient I also put the cursor on him and hit the mouse button.
Suddenly the blaster let out a stream of about 50 shots lasting less than
two seconds, and the Titan was history. I tried this a number of places.
Sometimes it's the blaster that "rapidfires", sometimes it'll be the Knight
or Monk. (Imagine what 20-30 blows from level 50 Champion with GM
everything landing in about 1 second would do to a monster.) It does seem
that the slower the beast you're attacking the more likely it is to happen.

As I said, probably a bug, but it sure was fun.

And Finally, PC Gamer's 63%

Being in the shrink-wrap software business myself, I know what an
unfavorable review from a major publication can do to a team. PC gamer
gives top rating to games that push the envelope, especially in graphics and
game design. One could argue that "fun to play" might be much more
meaningful to the average gamer. In that category I thought MM6, Tomb of
Varn and all, was a better game than the highly rated Baldur's Gate. The
AD&D gaming system works great with a bunch of friends gathered around a
table rolling funny dice (and I've done my share), but it doesn't fare as
well on a computer. 'Pick the three spells you want to cast today," doesn't
cut it.

And in that same "fun to play" category, MM7 is much better than MM6. The
fun is still there, the big annoyances gone, the improvements that were made
(skills, Light & Dark paths, balanced combat, better dungeon design) very
appreciated. You can get a better review by going to a state of the art 3d
graphics engine for MM8, but don't sacrifice fun to play to do it.

Thanks for a great game!
--Steve


Lizard

unread,
Aug 16, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/16/99
to
On Sun, 15 Aug 1999 18:26:48 -0700, "Stephen Gorrell"
<sgor...@zdnet.com> wrote:

>I started playing Might and Magic with MM6, so I can't be sure, but I'm
>guessing things like map crossing times and food were more important in
>previous releases, and that they're still around from habit.

Actually, they were introduced in MM6. (Map crossings. Food existed,
but it basically let you rest, which was MUCH more important in early
MMs, because it was a lot harder to get back to town safely when you
were weak or lost -- in MMI there was no automap.)
*----------------------------------------------------*
Evolution doesn't take prisoners:Lizard
Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice;
Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue:AuH20
http://www.mrlizard.com

Wromthrax Dragon

unread,
Aug 16, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/16/99
to
First off I just want to say this is an *outstanding* review of MM7, IMHO.
Excellent work, Stephen.


Stephen Gorrell <sgor...@zdnet.com> wrote in message
news:8JJt3.751$z6.1...@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net...


> Well, I finally finished the game, and enjoyed the heck out of it. In
case
> anyone is counting, I finished in just over 3 years at level 65, on the
Path
> of Light, with a final score of 10,075.

I played light and dark, made it to level 75 and 74 respectively, and took
nearly the same amount of time. My dark party finished quicker but had less
experience by a level, so the scores were equal, around 12,000 and a bit.

I totally agree with CKS as the core.

However, if I was light I would take a 2nd K and if I was dark I would take
a second S. Reason: light gets great "enhancement" spells and dark gets
great offensive dark magic. So switching the K with S works great.

>
> One suggestion on character voices - avoid the high, whiny ones. They get
> old really quick, especially if they say the same damn six words every
time
> they take a minor hit. "Oof"s and "ouch"es are fine for the "just a
> scratch"s, with a nice snappy comeback when things get serious. About
the
> time my Cassandra would pipe up after taking a hard blow with "I'm not
dead
> yet!" I knew things were getting serious for the home team.

Totally agree. I think the best overall voice was the Michael Dorn
character. "This has all the makings of adventure...etc..." The worst
overall voice was a tossup between the blonde female dwarf and the
chinese-looking human female. I kind of like the red-haired female elf,
"ooooh, I broke a nail..." but alot of her item id comments got old real
fast.


>
> Skills
>
> I like the specialization system. It made character creation a real
> strategic element in the game. Some are clearly more useful than others.

Absolutely. This is the best part of your review IMHO.

> Here are a few thoughts.
>
> Magic - I'd like to see this broken up for the secondary magic users. No
> change for the S&C - they should be able to GM everything. But a Druid
> should be able to GM Earth, or a Paladin GM Spirit. It makes sense for
the
> character role. The remaining magics could be set at a higher or lower
> level based on how close or far they are from the character type. A
Ranger
> who could GM Water would be a great addition to a party who didn't want a
> Sorcerer but still would like to travel quickly (a Ranger specialty).
Right
> now a Ranger is so general that it's a pretty weak choice.

Excellent idea.

>
> Weapons - This weapon skills worked fine for me. Nice balance.

I disagree. I think the Knight should be able to GM in any weapon or armor,
just as the Sorcerer can GM in any elemental realm. That way you could
really have a unique Knight.

>
> Disarm Trap - I was concerned about this one. Path of Light without a
Thief
> can only get to Expert. I spent a few horseshoes on my Monk and then
bought
> a +14 Disarm ring in Deyja, and that got me to 24, which was fine until
late
> in the game, by which time I just ignored them.

I found the skill useful only in the early going until I had sufficient hit
points, magic resistance, and regeneration and preservation spells. After
that it was a waste, especially with telekenesis.

>
> Perception - Nice to have, but Expert level Wizard Eye will get you
through
> just fine.

I got through with level 1 across the board just fine.

>
> Merchant - Once I GM'd my Cleric in this the money just piled up. By the
> end I just left anything I couldn't use to upgrade my equipment laying on
> the ground.

Agreed. I usually just putt in 1 level across the board and hired a duper.

>
> Learning - The most bang for the buck at level 1. Acquired it and forgot
> it.

Yes.

>
> Meditation - Like Learning, by the time I had Skill Points to burn on this
I
> already had more Spell Points than I ever used. Acquired it and forgot
it.

I disagree a bit here. I like the big-bang spells of light and dark (power
cure, day of gods, shrapmetal, dragon breath, et. al.), and elemental spells
like starburst, meteor shower, et. al. In the mid-late game I put some
significant points into my C and S meditation to bump up their spell points
and found it very useful to do so.

>
> Body Building - Not an early priority, but nice once I could afford it.

But in the late stages GM body building just made my Knight more invincible
than he already was :-)

>
> Identify Item - Not required, but a huge convenience, especially if you
> wanted to keep from getting ripped off by the ore smiths in Erathia (see
> Cheats below). I hired a Scholar NPC as soon as I could and never
invested
> a Skill Point in it.

Yes. Scholar and duper til nearly the end, then spellmaster and enchanter
for +elemental skills and +resistances.

>
> Repair - The nice thing about this skill is that by the time you need a
high
> level in it, you can afford the Skill Points necessary to get a high level
> in it. I didn't start breaking armor and weapons until I ran into the
> Titans, and by then my Knight was already GM in everything that counted.
I
> just wish he could fix something without having to do the inventory
shuffle.

Great skill in the late game just to save the aggravation of broken weapons
and armor.

>
> Identify Monster - never used it.

Totally useless. The "detect life" spell was far more useful and 100%
reliable.

>
> Armsmaster - Also not an early priority, but nice once I could afford it.

Very nice for the Knight at GM level! Turned him into a Braun Moulinex
machine.

>
> Stealing - The opposite of Repair. That is to say, by the time you could
> afford to invest in it, you're past the point of needing it. High fines
if
> you're caught. Can't steal spell books from Guilds. Can't sell stolen
> merchandise. Useless.

Thoroughly and utterly useless.

>
> Alchemy - This falls in the "more trouble than it's worth" bucket. All
that
> carrying and mixing for stuff that a) I can do quicker and easier with a
> spell, or b) I don't need. We REALLY need to be able to stack reagents,
> folks.

The best general potions only require expert level, and this is the Druids
only real advantage over other classes so the Druid kind of bites. I have
to agree overall the inventory space is more than a pain in the neck.


>
> NPCs

Right from the start: Scholar and Duper.

In the end game switch to: Spellmaster (+4 elemental magic) and Enhanter
(+20 to self/elemental resistances).

In MM6 there were some longer travel disttances making cooks and guides
somwehat useful for specific trips, if you didn'tt stock enough food.

>
> Mostly useless. Has anybody ever hired a Cook, or a Guide? Who cares how
> long a map crossing takes. (Hint: they all take from 2-10 seconds
depending
> on how fast your system is, Guide or no guide) The NPCs that are useful,
a
> Gatemaster if you are short on Elemental Magic for instance, cost WAY too
> much for what they give.
>
> The Scholar is an exception to the above. An NPC that replaces one entire
> skill, gives an Experience bonus, and only costs 5%. The Banker is fine
> too. Hire one to pay for your Scholar.
>
> What I would like to see is other NPCs like the Scholar that can cover a
> full skill gap. If no one on my team can Disarm, a +6 Disarm NPC isn't
> going to help much. What I need is a "Expert" disarmer, or a "Master"
> disarmer. Likewise, If you want to play around with Alchemy but don't
have
> the skill, getting a +6 NPC won't help. Without higher levels you can
only
> mix basic potions - period.

This is a totall excellent idea. I would love to have a grand master water
magic guy who could cast Lloyds Beacon and Town Portal a few times a day, or
an air guy who could cast Jump or Fly several times. The possibilities are
very good with what you could do.

>
> Is there any particular reason why, other than tradition, you can only
have
> two NPCs on your party? Given the NPCs available it's not an issue at the
> moment, but with better NPCs I would want to hire more. A few more
> nice-looking ones wouldn't hurt either. I'm going to be staring at them
for
> a LONG time.

I think given your previous idea that may not be necessary. Also, it does
kind of force one to choose, rather than just be 100% all around awesome.

>
> I started playing Might and Magic with MM6, so I can't be sure, but I'm
> guessing things like map crossing times and food were more important in
> previous releases, and that they're still around from habit. Going
forward,
> I would suggest that the entire NPC list be put to the following test
before
> it's copied to another release. Namely, ask a couple of dozen experienced
> M&M players if they would ever consider hiring this NPC, and if the answer
> is no, ditch 'em.

Totally.

>
> Quests
>
> A nice mix from simple to daunting. The Light/Dark choice was a very nice
> addition and added a lot to the game. The real purpose of the Obelisk and
> Acromage quests, getting you to visit all regions and explore all areas of
> the map, is fine, but again. by the time you do this, the treasure is
pretty
> meaningless. I found all 14 obelisks, but by then I had finished Colony
Zod
> and was on my way to the Lincoln, so I never even bothered to go get the
> stuff.

Treasure in general, for the quests, was obsolete by the time found. It
would have been really nice to find a truly worthwhile magic item once in
awhile. As it is, the best items I ever found were either the Light or Dark
magic cloaks, they had the best AC and you got them before you got
light/dark magic. Also, the Sandals of the Gods or something ... +20AC,
+100 speed, etc... those were a very good item at the time.

>
> Dungeons
>
> The smaller, tighter dungeons are a BIG improvement. The Tomb of Varn in
> MM6 was bloody awful! I hate being dumped in huge empty rooms full of
> dozens of monsters. My least favorite in MM7 was, no big shock, The
Arena.
> I dislike it for the same reason. It was made even worse by a) not being
> able to save, and b) repeatedly locking up my machine, which meant just
> about the time I had it won I would have to start over. I was not saying
> kind words by the time I finished my Knight's Champion quest.

The other thing about the arena/champion quest is that was the one place
that actually hiring another NPC (the horseman) made sense because you could
visit every week instead of every other week (travel of 4 days each way was
reduced). I ate the 5 weeks to complete that quest rather than give up my
beloved scholar and money-grubbing duper.

>
> I had gangs of fun in, of all places, The Titan Stronghold. Nice long
halls
> to chase up and down, unconvoluted layout, big slow Titans, tough but not
> too tough dragons, great treasure. I didn't have an Archer so for me it
was
> a side quest. By the time I did it my party was strong enough to go
toe-to
> toe with a Titan or Dragon without too much trouble, which probably
helped.
> I also liked the tunnel dungeons for the same reason. I guess hit and run
> is my style.

Yes there were some climactic pitched battles at times but not the "endless
hordes" and anti-climactic nature of MM6.

>
> One last thing, running around in the Lincoln was a bit too reminiscent of
> the computer complexes in Doom.

I was thinking of the original system shock. It was different, and cool.

>
> Weapons
>
> WHERE THE HELL ARE THE DECENT STAFFS??? I was halfway through the game
> before I saw anything better than the stick I started with. I never found
a
> really good one. The one artifact I did find I couldn't use because it
was
> Dark Path only.

>
> I wasn't impressed with the blasters either. I gave one to my Sorcerer,
but
> let everyone else keep what they had. Again, my fighting style was to
move
> in close and bash 'em. Most battles were very short.

What are you kidding? Perhaps you didn't learn the "Hold down the A-Key
continuously" trick...? The only problem I guess was, yeah, in the
generally close quarters of the Lincoln they were less effective but in a
long corridor with 4 blasters facing those Droids I just held down the A key
and the Droids hardly got a shot off.

But by far the best "weapon" in the game was the shrapmetal spell, when used
close up it was vastly more potent than anything else. As I said, dark
party with CKSS gave me 3 shrapmetal spells. No monsters ever survived the
first round of combat against me. But at range, blasters were awesome and
saved me all kinds of spell points for when I needed to be in close
quarters.

>
> I also don't care for blasters for another reason. To me it's kind'a like
> going to one of those Martial Arts movies where they spend the first 100
> minutes of the movie showing the boy whose family has been wronged train
and
> grow and develop his skills under the stern but patient tutelage of his
> Master in preparation for righting the wrong. Then he gets to the big
> climax, and picks up a gun and shoots the bad guy. It takes skill to use
a
> sword or cast magic, but any whimpy-assed fool can shoot a gun. That's
not
> what I trained my team for.

Good point.

>
> User Interface
>
> Please fix it so that I can open the spell book, then change characters.
> Here's what happens. I click on the Cleric, cast a spell - Regeneration
> say, and the book closes. Ok, fine. It also switches to the next active
> character, say my Sorcerer. But I want to cast Regeneration again for the
> next character. So I click back on my Cleric and hit the spell book, and
> the Sorcerer's spell book pops open. The Cleric wasn't "ready" so I
didn't
> actually select him when I clicked on him. But he's ready now, so I click
> on him and nothing happens. I have to close the Sorcerer 's spell book,
> then click on the Cleric, then open the Cleric's spell book. I know
better,
> but I do this again and again.

Agreed. It was very annoying.

>
> While you're at it, add a "spell macro" capability. Even with Day of the
> Gods, Day of Protection, and Hour of Power, I still took me 10 or 11 casts
> to get my party ready for combat. (the three above, Preservation,
> Regeneration 4 times, Hammer Hands, Protection from Magic, and Torch Light
> if we were underground.)

Excellent idea! It was far worse for the dark side because no Day of
Protection was available :-( Mind you we did have pain reflection :-))) It
was great watching the minotaurs impale themselves with their own axes.


>
> Crashes and Hangs
>
> Pretty minimal, until I upgraded my SB Live! to the 2.1 drivers and
enabled
> accelerated 3d audio, then I was crashing all over the place. I had to
turn
> it off.

Happened to me once before I got the patch. I was worried for awhile but
saved to a new savegame slot and was judicious about saving for awhile.
After the patch the problem went away.

I always thought this was the "eradicate" feature of the blaster kicking in
on my behalf, since one of my guys got eradicated by a blaster when I forgot
to put on GM proteciton from magic :-)

>
> As I said, probably a bug, but it sure was fun.
>
> And Finally, PC Gamer's 63%
>
> Being in the shrink-wrap software business myself, I know what an
> unfavorable review from a major publication can do to a team. PC gamer
> gives top rating to games that push the envelope, especially in graphics
and
> game design. One could argue that "fun to play" might be much more
> meaningful to the average gamer. In that category I thought MM6, Tomb of
> Varn and all, was a better game than the highly rated Baldur's Gate. The
> AD&D gaming system works great with a bunch of friends gathered around a
> table rolling funny dice (and I've done my share), but it doesn't fare as
> well on a computer. 'Pick the three spells you want to cast today,"
doesn't
> cut it.

You know its funny you mention Baldurs Gate. As a single player game it was
OK but I tried multi-player and my impression was, "Just what the hell were
they thinking?" I was very disappointed with BG except that it has an
AWESOME game engine, just the mechanics were far too complex. If I want to
play pen and paper AD&D I'll play it. On a computer I'd like to see that
taken advantage of.

>
> And in that same "fun to play" category, MM7 is much better than MM6.

Absolutely!

> The
> fun is still there, the big annoyances gone, the improvements that were
made
> (skills, Light & Dark paths, balanced combat, better dungeon design) very
> appreciated. You can get a better review by going to a state of the art
3d
> graphics engine for MM8, but don't sacrifice fun to play to do it.
>
> Thanks for a great game!

Totally

p.s. Today is my first official day as an Ultima Dragon. So ... where is my
cinnamon bun? Anybody?

> --Steve
>
>
>

Lost Dragon

unread,
Aug 16, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/16/99
to
>p.s. Today is my first official day as an Ultima Dragon. So ... where is my
>cinnamon bun? Anybody?

They don't give out cinnabons here, you have to go to
rec.games.computer.ultima.dragons to get one.

Yes, we have our very own newsgroup =]

Introduce yourself.. I'm sure you'll get a warm reception.


/| .oo__. .-----.----------Lost-Dragon-----------.-----. .__oo. |\
| \| ,-'' | _O_ | -=== lost...@ionet.net ===- | _O_ | ``-, |/ |
`,_/,(_)\_ | | |-== Member: UDIC Author: DBQ ==-| | | _/(_),\_,'
_.,-=(_)_)_ ''`-----`- http://www.lostdragon.com/ -'-----'`` _(_(_)=-,._

Christoph Nahr

unread,
Aug 16, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/16/99
to
On Sun, 15 Aug 1999 18:26:48 -0700, "Stephen Gorrell"
<sgor...@zdnet.com> wrote:

>Well, I finally finished the game, and enjoyed the heck out of it. In case
>anyone is counting, I finished in just over 3 years at level 65, on the Path
>of Light, with a final score of 10,075.
>
>In the course of playing I had a number of thoughts about various aspects of
>the game that I would like to pass on. Maybe someone at 3DO/NWC can add
>them to the pile of stuff to look through when they start thinking about
>MM8.

Nice comments, I'll add some of my own below.

>The specialization of skills by character class made this a whole new
>ballgame over MM6.

Absolutely, but skill mastery needs to be rebalanced as you mention
below.

>If I were going to start over again, I would probably
>go KMAS.

No cleric? No GM Protection from Magic? You're sure about that?

>Magic - I'd like to see this broken up for the secondary magic users. No
>change for the S&C - they should be able to GM everything. But a Druid
>should be able to GM Earth, or a Paladin GM Spirit. It makes sense for the
>character role. The remaining magics could be set at a higher or lower
>level based on how close or far they are from the character type. A Ranger
>who could GM Water would be a great addition to a party who didn't want a
>Sorcerer but still would like to travel quickly (a Ranger specialty). Right
>now a Ranger is so general that it's a pretty weak choice.

Completely agreed. GM skills are so much more powerful than expert or
even M skills that the jack-of-all-trades are really useless in MM7.

>Weapons - This weapon skills worked fine for me. Nice balance.

Basically they were fine but I agree with Wromthrax that the Knight
should be able to GM more weapons.

>Disarm Trap - I was concerned about this one. Path of Light without a Thief
>can only get to Expert. I spent a few horseshoes on my Monk and then bought
>a +14 Disarm ring in Deyja, and that got me to 24, which was fine until late
>in the game, by which time I just ignored them.

Depends on your tolerance to frustration, I guess. I was *really*
glad to have a Thief for those chests in the first half of the game.

>Perception - Nice to have, but Expert level Wizard Eye will get you through
>just fine.

Only if you don't mind clicking on walls for hours on end. There were
several occasions when I wished I had a higher perception skill, such
as in the Fairy King's Hill or in the Haunted Mansion. And there were
plenty of posts by desparate people with low perception skill who
couldn't find the hidden doors that led to the pirate map...

>Merchant - Once I GM'd my Cleric in this the money just piled up. By the
>end I just left anything I couldn't use to upgrade my equipment laying on
>the ground.

Money is critical in the early game only. You can't GM Merchant (or
anything else) until late game at which time you won't need it
anymore. It actually took some fun out of the game because I simply
couldn't use most of the treasure I found --- too rich...

>Repair - The nice thing about this skill is that by the time you need a high
>level in it, you can afford the Skill Points necessary to get a high level
>in it. I didn't start breaking armor and weapons until I ran into the
>Titans, and by then my Knight was already GM in everything that counted. I
>just wish he could fix something without having to do the inventory shuffle.

Once I could afford it I hired a 100% repair guy. That was that, GM
repair for all the party members.

>Identify Monster - never used it.

It's very useful... but only at GM level, at which point you don't
really need it anymore. At lower levels of expertise you don't get
enough info to make it worthwhile.

>Armsmaster - Also not an early priority, but nice once I could afford it.

The nice thing about Armsmaster is that it speeds up *all* weapons.
So I'd argue it's better to first invest in Armsmaster, and only put
skill points into specific weapon skills once you know in which type
of weapon you're going to specialise.

>Stealing - The opposite of Repair. That is to say, by the time you could
>afford to invest in it, you're past the point of needing it. High fines if
>you're caught. Can't steal spell books from Guilds. Can't sell stolen
>merchandise. Useless.

Agreed, Stealing is completely useless. That was a bit of a
disappointment, took half the fun out of the Thief class.

>Alchemy - This falls in the "more trouble than it's worth" bucket. All that
>carrying and mixing for stuff that a) I can do quicker and easier with a
>spell, or b) I don't need. We REALLY need to be able to stack reagents,
>folks.

Some people like mixing potions but if you don't, I agree that Alchemy
isn't worth it. Even the most powerful potions are sold in shops,
making the whole mixing effort rather pointless.

>NPCs
>
>Mostly useless. Has anybody ever hired a Cook, or a Guide? Who cares how
>long a map crossing takes. (Hint: they all take from 2-10 seconds depending
>on how fast your system is, Guide or no guide) The NPCs that are useful, a
>Gatemaster if you are short on Elemental Magic for instance, cost WAY too
>much for what they give.

I wouldn't mind if the less-than-useful NPCs were retained for flavour
but all NPCs, across the bank, have to be *way* cheaper than they are
now. Gatemasters are a joke, by the time you can afford you no longer
need them (unless you play four knights).

It's a pity, picking up NPCs early on could add a whole new strategic
element to the game because you could concentrate on skills not
covered by NPCs -- but as it stands, you'll just take a banker and
then think really hard if you shouldn't put a merchant in the other
slot, as the good NPCs are so expensive and you're so short on cash..

>What I would like to see is other NPCs like the Scholar that can cover a
>full skill gap. If no one on my team can Disarm, a +6 Disarm NPC isn't
>going to help much. What I need is a "Expert" disarmer, or a "Master"
>disarmer. Likewise, If you want to play around with Alchemy but don't have
>the skill, getting a +6 NPC won't help. Without higher levels you can only
>mix basic potions - period.

Yes, absolutely. The "+x" NPCs can be dropped from the game as far as
I'm concerned. Maybe leave in some NPCs that give +x for *several*
skills, all elemental magic for instance. But single or dual skill
NPCs should always *provide* that skill for all party members, rather
than just increasing it.

>Is there any particular reason why, other than tradition, you can only have
>two NPCs on your party? Given the NPCs available it's not an issue at the
>moment, but with better NPCs I would want to hire more. A few more
>nice-looking ones wouldn't hurt either. I'm going to be staring at them for
>a LONG time.

Too many NPCs could make character development a bit pointless... but
I agree that the number could be increased, maybe to four.

>Quests
>
>A nice mix from simple to daunting. The Light/Dark choice was a very nice
>addition and added a lot to the game. The real purpose of the Obelisk and
>Acromage quests, getting you to visit all regions and explore all areas of
>the map, is fine, but again. by the time you do this, the treasure is pretty
>meaningless. I found all 14 obelisks, but by then I had finished Colony Zod
>and was on my way to the Lincoln, so I never even bothered to go get the
>stuff.

Agreed, and I'd like to add (once again) that most artifacts and
relics are ridiculously wimpy compared to regular enchanted items.
Either tune down enchantments, or power up the "named" stuff.

I do the obelisk quest just so that I finish every quest in the game
but I also agree that the treasure comes too late to be worthwhile.
Possibly make finishing the quest a prerequisite to solving the game?

>Dungeons
>
>The smaller, tighter dungeons are a BIG improvement. The Tomb of Varn in
>MM6 was bloody awful! I hate being dumped in huge empty rooms full of
>dozens of monsters.

Have to disagree here. While some of the dungeons were a nice design
many were just *too* small and simple. I'd like to see some of the
huge and splendid MM6 dungeons return in MM8... they were almost a
game within a game.

>I had gangs of fun in, of all places, The Titan Stronghold.

What I found really nice about this quest was that you could solve it
with invisibility, even if you had no chance of winning a fight
against a titan. Very nice departure from the usual "hack your way
through" CRPG thinking.

>One last thing, running around in the Lincoln was a bit too reminiscent of
>the computer complexes in Doom.

The Lincoln was a pretty generic sci-fi environment, it didn't really
remind me of anything specific. Could have been modelled after System
Shock, or any generic sci-fi movie.

>WHERE THE HELL ARE THE DECENT STAFFS??? I was halfway through the game
>before I saw anything better than the stick I started with. I never found a
>really good one. The one artifact I did find I couldn't use because it was
>Dark Path only.

Yes, they really dropped the ball here. Staff is an utterly,
completely worthless weapon skill because the weapons are so bad.

>I wasn't impressed with the blasters either. I gave one to my Sorcerer, but
>let everyone else keep what they had. Again, my fighting style was to move
>in close and bash 'em. Most battles were very short.

You have to equip *everyone* with blaster rifles (not the blaster
pistols). Then your party will get off 16 shots per round (or real
time equivalent), enough to take down any monster really fast.

>User Interface
>
>Please fix it so that I can open the spell book, then change characters.

>While you're at it, add a "spell macro" capability.

Agreed on both points.

>The one thing I did discover that is probably a bug but worked out extremely
>well is what I call "rapidfire".

Monsters are slowed down a bit whenever they are hit, and blasters are
extremely fast weapons... but a stream of 50 shots does sound like a
bug to me.

>And Finally, PC Gamer's 63%

I think it's pretty obvious from the review that Michael Wolf hasn't
played the game past Stone City. He doesn't mention any later areas
nor the light/dark choice. He criticises the game for not improving
on MM6 which is simply flat-out wrong, and probably the result of not
reading the manual and only playing for a couple of hours. There was
one dude on this NG who also posted a pretty moronic "review" based on
an hour of play or so, and he agreed with Michael Wolf... go figure.

NWC improved the game in such a way that the improvements aren't
obvious until about halfway through the game. But then they really
make the difference because they remove the late-game tedium of MM6.
Problem is, if you only play the game for a few hours you'll see the
same old graphics and you'll think that nothing has changed.

>Thanks for a great game!

I second that!
--
Chris Nahr (christo...@uumail.xxde, remove xx to reply by e-mail)
Visit http://uuhome.de/christoph.nahr/ for Might & Magic information
and Star Chess, a strategy game with source code and AI documentation
Please reply either on Usenet or by e-mail but not both!

hoshekdarr's News

unread,
Aug 17, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/17/99
to
One thing i'd like to say was that magic for thiefs was absolutely useless.
by the time you can use magic for thiefs and get it relatively strong the
monsters were to strong to worry with using offensive spells. I didn't even
use the other spells for thiefs.
would have been better if thiefs could get better spells e.g expert
maybe.
I found stealing to be absolutely useless. I was hoping to find a store
that would buy stollen goods, at a discounted rate, to get rid of the one
gem I had.
I found alchemy to be very useful especially when i got an amulet that
added about +15 to the skill.
A bit disapointed i didn't find many good artifacts.
Liked the idea that artifacts and relics could be used by certain races,
though was a bit pissed off when I found i couldn't use some while i was
playing.
Didn't go and get the stuff from the hidden obelisk treasure.
One thing about the blasters that i would find good is with GM they
could use a gun in each hand, to increase the damage done.
Then GM could be limited to certain classes of characters.
Can't wait to see what is done with MM8

until then
DAZ

David Michael Kass

unread,
Aug 17, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/17/99
to
In article <37ba0435...@personalnews.de.uu.net>,

Christoph Nahr <christo...@uumail.xxde> wrote:
>On Sun, 15 Aug 1999 18:26:48 -0700, "Stephen Gorrell"
><sgor...@zdnet.com> wrote:
>
>>Well, I finally finished the game, and enjoyed the heck out of it. In case
>>anyone is counting, I finished in just over 3 years at level 65, on the Path
>>of Light, with a final score of 10,075.
>>
>>In the course of playing I had a number of thoughts about various aspects of
>>the game that I would like to pass on. Maybe someone at 3DO/NWC can add
>>them to the pile of stuff to look through when they start thinking about
>>MM8.
>
>Nice comments, I'll add some of my own below.

Some further comments. Note that I haven't finished the game yet (I'm
currently level 18, with experience for level ~22).

>>The specialization of skills by character class made this a whole new
>>ballgame over MM6.
>
>Absolutely, but skill mastery needs to be rebalanced as you mention
>below.
>
>>If I were going to start over again, I would probably
>>go KMAS.
>
>No cleric? No GM Protection from Magic? You're sure about that?

I get the impression that auto kill can also be stopped by a
sufficeintly high body resistance, is that actually the case? I just
found out the hard way that Ancient Wyverns also have auto kill
(although only on their strike).

>>Magic - I'd like to see this broken up for the secondary magic users. No
>>change for the S&C - they should be able to GM everything. But a Druid
>>should be able to GM Earth, or a Paladin GM Spirit. It makes sense for the
>>character role. The remaining magics could be set at a higher or lower
>>level based on how close or far they are from the character type. A Ranger
>>who could GM Water would be a great addition to a party who didn't want a
>>Sorcerer but still would like to travel quickly (a Ranger specialty). Right
>>now a Ranger is so general that it's a pretty weak choice.
>
>Completely agreed. GM skills are so much more powerful than expert or
>even M skills that the jack-of-all-trades are really useless in MM7.

I don't know about GM yet, but I'm finding my archer to be much less
useful than in MM6 because she can't become an expert until she gets
her promotion (I liked being able to have my archer take care of
wizard eye expert in MM6).

>>Weapons - This weapon skills worked fine for me. Nice balance.
>
>Basically they were fine but I agree with Wromthrax that the Knight
>should be able to GM more weapons.

What I think might be interesting would be the ability to GM in only 2
or three, but whichever ones the player desired (ie the first ones).

Also, GM seems to be a bit easy, especially compared to MM6. All the
GMs I've seen seem to occur at level 10. Without playing through, I'm
wondering if streching things out wouldn't be better. The same would
then apply to masters (In MM6 mastering ranged from level 7 to 10 or
so). Right now it seems easy, I'm already starting to master things
(these aren't skills I'm pushing, but my "normal" growth is about 7
for my common skills), despite being only level 20 (And barely into
the mid game in my guess--I'm in the middle of the Human-Elven war).

>>Disarm Trap - I was concerned about this one. Path of Light without a Thief
>>can only get to Expert. I spent a few horseshoes on my Monk and then bought
>>a +14 Disarm ring in Deyja, and that got me to 24, which was fine until late
>>in the game, by which time I just ignored them.
>
>Depends on your tolerance to frustration, I guess. I was *really*
>glad to have a Thief for those chests in the first half of the game.

Either I'm not as far along as I think or I'm not sure this is true.
I found that my archer (and Monk) are as good as a thief could
possibly be. Until leaving Harmodale, there is no place to become an
expert, so the only effect is the number of points used and the Monk,
Archer and Thief are equal. After doing the barrow downs, my Monk
could become an expert and is still just as good as a thief (besides
which, you can't get expert unless you guess correctly and go to
Steadwick early). I'm finally at the point of mastering skills (since
the last time I went up in level) and a Thief might finally be better
than my Monk. On the other hand, the last couple of times I
accidentally set something off (usually by opening a chest and not
being careful of the character selected--my monk has +9 disarm item),
traps don't seem to be instantly lethal anymore.

>>Perception - Nice to have, but Expert level Wizard Eye will get you through
>>just fine.
>
>Only if you don't mind clicking on walls for hours on end. There were
>several occasions when I wished I had a higher perception skill, such
>as in the Fairy King's Hill or in the Haunted Mansion. And there were
>plenty of posts by desparate people with low perception skill who
>couldn't find the hidden doors that led to the pirate map...

The most annoying part about perception is that it is a binary
effect. Basically if your perception is above the threshold you'll
automatically see the thing, if below, you have no chance. This means
that you can't use multiple moderate perception characters instead of
one good one... I'm wondering if disarm isn't the same way.

>>Merchant - Once I GM'd my Cleric in this the money just piled up. By the
>>end I just left anything I couldn't use to upgrade my equipment laying on
>>the ground.
>
>Money is critical in the early game only. You can't GM Merchant (or
>anything else) until late game at which time you won't need it
>anymore. It actually took some fun out of the game because I simply
>couldn't use most of the treasure I found --- too rich...

My money worries disappeared about the time I finished clearing out
Harmondale (I currently have 60K in the bank and another 60K as
walking money). Up until then I had a merchant (I ditched her around
level 15). Doing the Barrow Downs after Harmondale might have had
something to do with that...

>>Repair - The nice thing about this skill is that by the time you need a high
>>level in it, you can afford the Skill Points necessary to get a high level
>>in it. I didn't start breaking armor and weapons until I ran into the
>>Titans, and by then my Knight was already GM in everything that counted. I
>>just wish he could fix something without having to do the inventory shuffle.
>
>Once I could afford it I hired a 100% repair guy. That was that, GM
>repair for all the party members.

?? I thought that it took 2 (or is it 3?) NPC to be able to repair
everything. Harden potions (which I can finally make) seem to do a
pretty good job so far...

[snip comments on Armsmaster, Stealing, and Alchemy]

>>NPCs
>>
>>Mostly useless. Has anybody ever hired a Cook, or a Guide? Who cares how
>>long a map crossing takes. (Hint: they all take from 2-10 seconds depending
>>on how fast your system is, Guide or no guide) The NPCs that are useful, a
>>Gatemaster if you are short on Elemental Magic for instance, cost WAY too
>>much for what they give.
>
>I wouldn't mind if the less-than-useful NPCs were retained for flavour
>but all NPCs, across the bank, have to be *way* cheaper than they are
>now. Gatemasters are a joke, by the time you can afford you no longer
>need them (unless you play four knights).

I have to disagree here. I found a Scholar very useful up to this
point (at 3% it is cheap)--I picked him up with some of my starting
money. Not too long after that I got a trader (with the money from
the red potion quest), and upgraded to a Merchant as soon as
possible--I found that the loss of prestige from the Duper makes them
worse than a merchant until you have expert merchant and no better
until master (at least at Neutral). I currently have a gatemaster and
the +3 elemental magic. At level 18, I cannot cast town portal (I'm
still working on the golem quest) and she is very useful. The
elemental magic is nice and not to expensive at 10% (I'm currently
paying 30%, but since I have plenty of money and that is not taken off
of item sales--my largest source of income--it is affordable). If I
see one, I may use a wind master soon (to help find golem parts--It
depends on whether I need more than my 3 fly scrolls).

I do agree that many of the NPCs are less than useful and could be
consolidated (a few of them are occasionally useful)--especially all
the travel NPCs. On the other hand, some of the occasionally useful
ones are amusing. It would help if there were an easier way than
reloading to broaden the selection of NPCs to find the one you want.

One change I'd really like would be for the ability to show up when
you run the cursor over them (instead of having to right click).

>It's a pity, picking up NPCs early on could add a whole new strategic
>element to the game because you could concentrate on skills not
>covered by NPCs -- but as it stands, you'll just take a banker and
>then think really hard if you shouldn't put a merchant in the other
>slot, as the good NPCs are so expensive and you're so short on cash..

I've always found a merchant to be better than a banker.

>>What I would like to see is other NPCs like the Scholar that can cover a
>>full skill gap. If no one on my team can Disarm, a +6 Disarm NPC isn't
>>going to help much. What I need is a "Expert" disarmer, or a "Master"
>>disarmer. Likewise, If you want to play around with Alchemy but don't have
>>the skill, getting a +6 NPC won't help. Without higher levels you can only
>>mix basic potions - period.
>
>Yes, absolutely. The "+x" NPCs can be dropped from the game as far as
>I'm concerned. Maybe leave in some NPCs that give +x for *several*
>skills, all elemental magic for instance. But single or dual skill
>NPCs should always *provide* that skill for all party members, rather
>than just increasing it.

They do give basic level skill to all party members that don't have
the skill (in addition to boosting those that do). At least I know it
is the case for the merchant skill. It doesn't show up anywhere, but
if you check the prices and then get a +merchant, the price will
improve (In the case of merchant, the only use is really for
training). I think I tried it once with alchemy and found I could
make the first level of potions (which isn't much of a gain). I don't
think that + items give the skill but I've never tried it (the way
would be with alchemy...). Unfortunately, the basic level of most
skills isn't too useful (The only one I can see being useful is
perception). I wonder if the squire (+ all armor, + all weapons) has
the same effect (allowing sorcerors to wear chain or plate?).

>>Is there any particular reason why, other than tradition, you can only have
>>two NPCs on your party? Given the NPCs available it's not an issue at the
>>moment, but with better NPCs I would want to hire more. A few more
>>nice-looking ones wouldn't hurt either. I'm going to be staring at them for
>>a LONG time.
>
>Too many NPCs could make character development a bit pointless... but
>I agree that the number could be increased, maybe to four.

I like the limited NPCs since it forces you to choose (for example I
had to think hard to decide who to drop to get a chimmney sweep to
complete the challenge in the Tularene forest).

>>Quests
>>
>>A nice mix from simple to daunting. The Light/Dark choice was a very nice
>>addition and added a lot to the game. The real purpose of the Obelisk and
>>Acromage quests, getting you to visit all regions and explore all areas of
>>the map, is fine, but again. by the time you do this, the treasure is pretty
>>meaningless. I found all 14 obelisks, but by then I had finished Colony Zod
>>and was on my way to the Lincoln, so I never even bothered to go get the
>>stuff.
>
>Agreed, and I'd like to add (once again) that most artifacts and
>relics are ridiculously wimpy compared to regular enchanted items.
>Either tune down enchantments, or power up the "named" stuff.
>
>I do the obelisk quest just so that I finish every quest in the game
>but I also agree that the treasure comes too late to be worthwhile.
>Possibly make finishing the quest a prerequisite to solving the game?

Having some quests (and especially long potentially annoying ones) be
optional is nice. It allows for variability. Now the traders are
useless. The profit is miniscule (it seems to be 67 gold for the 200
gold items and 667? for the 2000 gold items) and the transport is
painful in terms of space.

>>Dungeons
>>
>>The smaller, tighter dungeons are a BIG improvement. The Tomb of Varn in
>>MM6 was bloody awful! I hate being dumped in huge empty rooms full of
>>dozens of monsters.
>
>Have to disagree here. While some of the dungeons were a nice design
>many were just *too* small and simple. I'd like to see some of the
>huge and splendid MM6 dungeons return in MM8... they were almost a
>game within a game.

So far I've found most of the dungeons to be small and the designs
disappointing. The only design I've liked was the sewers in
Eratia--except that the thieves and rats were real wimps--I don't
think I actually got hit more than 2 or 3 times (the Tularene caves
aren't bad, but were a bit annoying, much as were the Barrow
downs--although the latter was primarily due to the lack of
mapping/note taking--even with the stones unlocked).

On top of the lack of flair in the design, the dungeons seem to be
a bit empty and most of the monsters weaklings. So far, there have
only been a few combats were I felt challenged (the bottom part of the
haunted mansion--level 12, Wromthrax--level 14, and the dragon flies
on Emerald Isle--only because I tackled them immediately upon
arriving--on my second try, after leveling up and getting a bow for my
monk and the fireball wand, it wasn't hard--the barrow that had ghasts
(whichever paralyze) got a bit interesting because they paralyzed my
cleric before I could turn undead). Overall, I've taken much more
damage from traps than from monsters (and come a lot closer to getting
killed by them than by monsters). This has been annoying because I
can't judge the lethality of the traps until I've set them off (at
which point its too late to decide the area is too dangerous and back
off).

I keep seeing people talk about combat being hard and I'm not sure I
understand. I use turn based mode exclusively (due to my system
speed) and don't have that much problem. For example, getting the
vase was easy at level 14, as were trolls (killing Wromthrax was much
harder at the same level--I did do it but it took all my scrolls and 4
tries). For compairson to MM6, the only dungeons that required
multiple days of effort have been the barrow downs (I started them at
level 8) and the Haunted Mansion. In MM6, there were very very few
dungeons that I could do in one shot, and several requrired dozens of
trips.

It is nice to see that the non-damaging offensive spells are actually
useful. Berzerk was real nice on trolls, Charm and slow were great
against Wromthrax, turn undead make the barrows much easier. I hope
the trend continues. This coupled with the, to date, weaker combat
spells has made spell casters more interesting (and more balanced, at
least at range--my sorceror seems a bit weak in close, he does more
damage with his two daggers than with spells--even blades and
lightning bolt at effective level 10).

[snip Titan's stronghold and Lincon that I haven't gotten to]

>>WHERE THE HELL ARE THE DECENT STAFFS??? I was halfway through the game
>>before I saw anything better than the stick I started with. I never found a
>>really good one. The one artifact I did find I couldn't use because it was
>>Dark Path only.
>
>Yes, they really dropped the ball here. Staff is an utterly,
>completely worthless weapon skill because the weapons are so bad.

So far, I haven't even seen a staff for sale. I've also been changing
most of my ore (30+ Kreegar--the purple stuff) for weapons looking for
a decent staff and have seen one basic staff:-( (But then since I
forgot to get staff skill for my Monk on Emerald Isle and haven't seen
it since, I'm not sure its too important). On the other hand, I've
got some outstanding spears (+13), swords(+10 venom) and maces (+12
swift and barbarian) and some decent daggers (assasin's).

[snip haven't run into blasters yet]

>>User Interface
>>
>>Please fix it so that I can open the spell book, then change characters.
>>While you're at it, add a "spell macro" capability.
>
>Agreed on both points.

Actually what I'd like is a repeat spell button (or spell queue). It
would cause the character to cast the spell repeatedly until casting
it would have no more effect. Thus casting preservation would cast it
until each party member was affected. Or heal would be cast until all
members were at full health. It would make walking and casting so
much more useful when not in combat (its annoying as you're walking
along to have to stop and cast the healing spell--especially if you
have to do it 10 or 15 times after setting of a trapped chest...)

Another nice feature would be a "always keep active" button. Set it
and whenever the spell is no longer active, it would be cast again
(for example, wizard eye or torch in a dungeon)...

I would really appreciate it if some work were done to make sure that
the maps corresponded to the actual terrain. Almost all of the
outside maps appear to have mistakes in them. Some aren't too bad,
but most of them are quite annoying. Also, there needs to be a better
way of representing slopes and altitude on the maps--its very
difficult to tell where you can and can't go and what the terrain
looks like--even if you've already been there.

>>Thanks for a great game!
>
>I second that!

Well, so far, I like many of the game engine improvements over MM6,
but the world design (especially the dungeons) and plot have been less
interesting (there have been some very neat design and plot elements,
but they seem to sit alone--and not tied together).

--
David Kass Caltech Graduate
E-Mail: dk...@cco.caltech.edu Planetary Science
Finally...

Werner Arend

unread,
Aug 17, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/17/99
to

Hi,

Alright. I'm not finished yet, but I'd like to add some comments, too:

On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, Christoph Nahr wrote:

[Magic skills]

> >Disarm Trap - I was concerned about this one. Path of Light without a Thief
> >can only get to Expert. I spent a few horseshoes on my Monk and then bought
> >a +14 Disarm ring in Deyja, and that got me to 24, which was fine until late
> >in the game, by which time I just ignored them.
>
> Depends on your tolerance to frustration, I guess. I was *really*
> glad to have a Thief for those chests in the first half of the game.

I thought this would be a problem, too. But once you have mastered
Earth Magic and learned Telekinesis, you only have to disarm by hand in
confined quarters where you can't see the chest from far enough away to
use the spell without damaging yourself. No problem here.



> >Identify Monster - never used it.
>
> It's very useful... but only at GM level, at which point you don't
> really need it anymore. At lower levels of expertise you don't get
> enough info to make it worthwhile.

Yes, I agree it's *very* useful. I'm glad no one heard my strings of
curses while I tried to find the vulnerable points of the Obsidian
Gargoyle. I decided to GM Identify Monster ASAP after that.

> >Alchemy - This falls in the "more trouble than it's worth" bucket. All that
> >carrying and mixing for stuff that a) I can do quicker and easier with a
> >spell, or b) I don't need. We REALLY need to be able to stack reagents,
> >folks.
>
> Some people like mixing potions but if you don't, I agree that Alchemy
> isn't worth it. Even the most powerful potions are sold in shops,
> making the whole mixing effort rather pointless.

I never bothered with making potions. The only thing I ever did with them
was to mix powerful catalysts in. Everything I needed, I found or bought.
I guess it would be different if the recipes were more specific. As of
now, I've GMed everything that counts, so perhaps I'll give it a try to
get some Divine Power potions.

> >NPCs
> >
> >Mostly useless. Has anybody ever hired a Cook, or a Guide? Who cares how
> >long a map crossing takes. (Hint: they all take from 2-10 seconds depending
> >on how fast your system is, Guide or no guide) The NPCs that are useful, a
> >Gatemaster if you are short on Elemental Magic for instance, cost WAY too
> >much for what they give.
>
> I wouldn't mind if the less-than-useful NPCs were retained for flavour
> but all NPCs, across the bank, have to be *way* cheaper than they are
> now. Gatemasters are a joke, by the time you can afford you no longer
> need them (unless you play four knights).
>
> It's a pity, picking up NPCs early on could add a whole new strategic
> element to the game because you could concentrate on skills not
> covered by NPCs -- but as it stands, you'll just take a banker and
> then think really hard if you shouldn't put a merchant in the other
> slot, as the good NPCs are so expensive and you're so short on cash..

I'd like to know which NPCs are hired by people. Is there really anyone
without an Instructor? I hired the enchanter (+20 to all resistances) as
second NPC, and it has helped me quite a lot because resistances are
hardest to get up.

> >Quests
> >
> >A nice mix from simple to daunting. The Light/Dark choice was a very nice
> >addition and added a lot to the game. The real purpose of the Obelisk and
> >Acromage quests, getting you to visit all regions and explore all areas of
> >the map, is fine, but again. by the time you do this, the treasure is pretty
> >meaningless. I found all 14 obelisks, but by then I had finished Colony Zod
> >and was on my way to the Lincoln, so I never even bothered to go get the
> >stuff.
>
> Agreed, and I'd like to add (once again) that most artifacts and
> relics are ridiculously wimpy compared to regular enchanted items.
> Either tune down enchantments, or power up the "named" stuff.

Yeah, I have a whole chest with named items in a box in my castle. Some of
them you can't sell, some of them I won't, just in case. Funny to think
about some party of adventurers breaking into my nice, small, unobstrusive
and not too impressive castle, and finding a box with 8 artifacts unlocked
right there in the main hall <g>.

> >Dungeons
> >
> >The smaller, tighter dungeons are a BIG improvement. The Tomb of Varn in
> >MM6 was bloody awful! I hate being dumped in huge empty rooms full of
> >dozens of monsters.
>
> Have to disagree here. While some of the dungeons were a nice design
> many were just *too* small and simple. I'd like to see some of the
> huge and splendid MM6 dungeons return in MM8... they were almost a
> game within a game.

Definitely. In MM6, there were too many enemies in some places, but I
liked the big dungeons very much. Still, I do like the fact that there
seems to be more purpose to the rooms in the MM7 dungeons, not the usual
"here another generic ROOM(TM)". The Mercenary Guild or Clanker's Lab,
especially. You really get the impression that this is a real building,
and not, as for example in Castle Alamos of MM6, the big complex dungeon
designed to confuse players.

> >I had gangs of fun in, of all places, The Titan Stronghold.
>
> What I found really nice about this quest was that you could solve it
> with invisibility, even if you had no chance of winning a fight
> against a titan. Very nice departure from the usual "hack your way
> through" CRPG thinking.

Oh yeah!! The invisibilityy thing is one of the single best improvements
over MM6. Sneaking around in those places of Gryphonheart and Navan
castles where you're not supposed to go is fun even if you don't need most
of the stuff - and I only reached the Breeding Grounds through those
Liches and Queens of the Dead by being invisible.

> >WHERE THE HELL ARE THE DECENT STAFFS??? I was halfway through the game
> >before I saw anything better than the stick I started with. I never found a
> >really good one. The one artifact I did find I couldn't use because it was
> >Dark Path only.
>
> Yes, they really dropped the ball here. Staff is an utterly,
> completely worthless weapon skill because the weapons are so bad.

Hmm. I have two Wizards' Staves (+8 or so). Not too bad. But you're right,
good ones are extremely rare. I tried the reload game in order to get
a decent staff from the weapon or item maker with the ore collected on
Mount Nighon, but there never came any staff up. On the other side,
spear-type weapons seem to be extremely plentiful. Too much so, If you ask
me. Can it be some moron confused these, making a single group of them?

> >Thanks for a great game!

A very good game, but not a great one, for me. Anyway, lots of fun. A few
very important improvements, with being able to move in turn-based combat,
going invisible and sneaking around, and lots of other small points. A big
improvement over MM6. Nice, too, to meet some of the monsters I fought in
Heroes 3 eye-to-eye. I never really appreciated how tough a Minotaur Lord
really is.

One last thing, though: they really should improve the graphics.


Werner


Eric Marzin

unread,
Aug 17, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/17/99
to
i'll try to make my own contribution to this very interresting thread

Christoph Nahr <s...@sig.invalid> a écrit dans le message :
37ba0435...@personalnews.de.uu.net...


> On Sun, 15 Aug 1999 18:26:48 -0700, "Stephen Gorrell"
> <sgor...@zdnet.com> wrote:
>
> >Well, I finally finished the game, and enjoyed the heck out of it. In
case
> >anyone is counting, I finished in just over 3 years at level 65, on the
Path
> >of Light, with a final score of 10,075.
> >
> >In the course of playing I had a number of thoughts about various aspects
of
> >the game that I would like to pass on. Maybe someone at 3DO/NWC can add
> >them to the pile of stuff to look through when they start thinking about
> >MM8.
>
> Nice comments, I'll add some of my own below.
>
> >The specialization of skills by character class made this a whole new
> >ballgame over MM6.
>
> Absolutely, but skill mastery needs to be rebalanced as you mention
> below.
>

Yes, it is very frustating that all medium spellcaster (archer, ranger...)
are limited to expert level
(and it is until they get their second promotion !)
And making the druid limited to master level (on self and element) make this
class useless

> >If I were going to start over again, I would probably
> >go KMAS.
>
> No cleric? No GM Protection from Magic? You're sure about that?
>

Agree, Cleric seems unavoidable for me

> >Weapons - This weapon skills worked fine for me. Nice balance.
>
> Basically they were fine but I agree with Wromthrax that the Knight
> should be able to GM more weapons.
>

Yes, K should be able to GM all weapons

> >Disarm Trap - I was concerned about this one. Path of Light without a
Thief
> >can only get to Expert. I spent a few horseshoes on my Monk and then
bought
> >a +14 Disarm ring in Deyja, and that got me to 24, which was fine until
late
> >in the game, by which time I just ignored them.
>
> Depends on your tolerance to frustration, I guess. I was *really*
> glad to have a Thief for those chests in the first half of the game.
>

Having a Thief only for disarm trap is a bit frustating as the thief class
is weak due to useless of stealing.
I play with a ranger and that work fine for the chests (all my party have
perception to 4 or better and this is enougth
to reduce chests damages)

> >Perception - Nice to have, but Expert level Wizard Eye will get you
through
> >just fine.
>
> Only if you don't mind clicking on walls for hours on end. There were
> several occasions when I wished I had a higher perception skill, such
> as in the Fairy King's Hill or in the Haunted Mansion. And there were
> plenty of posts by desparate people with low perception skill who
> couldn't find the hidden doors that led to the pirate map...

Perception is a VERY, very useful skill :
1/ it allow to find secret door (save hours of search in dungeons)
2/ it avoid big damage on trap
3/ it give many money : before entering a new area, select the caracter who
have the best perception
and u will find more items on the map.


>
> >Merchant - Once I GM'd my Cleric in this the money just piled up. By the
> >end I just left anything I couldn't use to upgrade my equipment laying on
> >the ground.
>
> Money is critical in the early game only. You can't GM Merchant (or
> anything else) until late game at which time you won't need it
> anymore. It actually took some fun out of the game because I simply
> couldn't use most of the treasure I found --- too rich...

Agree, this is a problem in MM7 (and MM6) that money is not a point of
interrest after level 25.
In previous MM, money was a concerning pb throught all the course of the
game because at some point u need
lot of money to advance (remenber a quest which need to have 100.000 GP in
MM4)
They have to solve that in next versions.


>
> >Repair - The nice thing about this skill is that by the time you need a
high
> >level in it, you can afford the Skill Points necessary to get a high
level
> >in it. I didn't start breaking armor and weapons until I ran into the
> >Titans, and by then my Knight was already GM in everything that counted.
I
> >just wish he could fix something without having to do the inventory
shuffle.
>
> Once I could afford it I hired a 100% repair guy. That was that, GM
> repair for all the party members.
>

Repair item is a good way to save money in the first part of the game (when
u need of).
The interesting thing in repair item is that u are able to repair item with
low level skill.
Agree with the pb of inventory shuffle (same thing for merchant and identify
item)


> >Identify Monster - never used it.
>
> It's very useful... but only at GM level, at which point you don't
> really need it anymore. At lower levels of expertise you don't get
> enough info to make it worthwhile.

Never used it, i 've got a scholar early in the game and keep it till end.

>
> >Armsmaster - Also not an early priority, but nice once I could afford it.
>
> The nice thing about Armsmaster is that it speeds up *all* weapons.
> So I'd argue it's better to first invest in Armsmaster, and only put
> skill points into specific weapon skills once you know in which type
> of weapon you're going to specialise.
>

idea of speed up armsmaster before weapons looks like a good one
I will try it in my next party

> >Stealing -
> >Alchemy -

Useless skills

2 NPC seems a good balance between party improvement and character
development.
I agree that most of NPC are useless (especially the '+x' ones)

> >Quests
> >
> >A nice mix from simple to daunting. The Light/Dark choice was a very
nice
> >addition and added a lot to the game. The real purpose of the Obelisk
and
> >Acromage quests, getting you to visit all regions and explore all areas
of
> >the map, is fine, but again. by the time you do this, the treasure is
pretty
> >meaningless. I found all 14 obelisks, but by then I had finished Colony
Zod
> >and was on my way to the Lincoln, so I never even bothered to go get the
> >stuff.
>
> Agreed, and I'd like to add (once again) that most artifacts and
> relics are ridiculously wimpy compared to regular enchanted items.
> Either tune down enchantments, or power up the "named" stuff.
>
> I do the obelisk quest just so that I finish every quest in the game
> but I also agree that the treasure comes too late to be worthwhile.
> Possibly make finishing the quest a prerequisite to solving the game?
>

Quests are well balanced in MM7 but some are so long (obelisks) that
treasure is useless
I try to complete the ArcoMage quest very early and was not disapointed by
the reward
I agree that relics and artifats are too weak compared to enchanted items
(especially by GM enchanted item spell)


> >Dungeons
> >
> >The smaller, tighter dungeons are a BIG improvement. The Tomb of Varn in
> >MM6 was bloody awful! I hate being dumped in huge empty rooms full of
> >dozens of monsters.
>
> Have to disagree here. While some of the dungeons were a nice design
> many were just *too* small and simple. I'd like to see some of the
> huge and splendid MM6 dungeons return in MM8... they were almost a
> game within a game.
>
> >I had gangs of fun in, of all places, The Titan Stronghold.
>
> What I found really nice about this quest was that you could solve it
> with invisibility, even if you had no chance of winning a fight
> against a titan. Very nice departure from the usual "hack your way
> through" CRPG thinking.
>

Disagree, dungeons in MM7 are too small, and too empty
Please NWC, give us big and complex dungeons as MM6 ones
I think this is the only point where MM6 is better than MM7


> >WHERE THE HELL ARE THE DECENT STAFFS???

not in this game, i have staff skill to my S and was very frustating by
these tons of useless (for my party) dagger


> >User Interface
> >
> >Please fix it so that I can open the spell book, then change characters.
> >While you're at it, add a "spell macro" capability.
>
> Agreed on both points.

Agree, especially for the 'spell macro'

>
> >Thanks for a great game!
>
> I second that!

MM7 is really a great game , thanks NWC
I am a fan of MM serie since the beginning and not on the way to give up.

Christoph Nahr

unread,
Aug 17, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/17/99
to
On 17 Aug 1999 04:07:58 GMT, dk...@cco.caltech.edu (David Michael
Kass) wrote:

[snip all points on which I agree]

>I get the impression that auto kill can also be stopped by a
>sufficeintly high body resistance, is that actually the case?

Not sure but don't think so. However, high resistances might reduce
the probability of being hit by such attacks to a point where it stops
being annoying.

>What I think might be interesting would be the ability to GM in only 2
>or three, but whichever ones the player desired (ie the first ones).

I think this isn't really necessary as you don't receive enough skill
points to grandmaster all possible weapon skills anyway.

>Also, GM seems to be a bit easy, especially compared to MM6. All the
>GMs I've seen seem to occur at level 10. Without playing through, I'm
>wondering if streching things out wouldn't be better. The same would
>then apply to masters (In MM6 mastering ranged from level 7 to 10 or
>so). Right now it seems easy, I'm already starting to master things
>(these aren't skills I'm pushing, but my "normal" growth is about 7
>for my common skills), despite being only level 20 (And barely into
>the mid game in my guess--I'm in the middle of the Human-Elven war).

Yes, they might have delayed skill upgrades a bit. However, the game
is shorter overall than MM6 so it's not as bad as you might think at
this point of the game. When you're done with the war you've
completed about the first half of the game.

>Either I'm not as far along as I think or I'm not sure this is true.
>I found that my archer (and Monk) are as good as a thief could
>possibly be.

You may be right, lower levels of the disarm skill will probably
suffice until you get Telekinesis.

>The most annoying part about perception is that it is a binary
>effect. Basically if your perception is above the threshold you'll
>automatically see the thing, if below, you have no chance. This means
>that you can't use multiple moderate perception characters instead of
>one good one... I'm wondering if disarm isn't the same way.

Only the disarm skill of the character doing the disarming is
considered, so make sure you always select the correct character
before trying to open a chest. This is not quite the same way as
perception; the highest perception of any character in the party
determines what you see, regardless of who is selected.

>My money worries disappeared about the time I finished clearing out
>Harmondale (I currently have 60K in the bank and another 60K as
>walking money). Up until then I had a merchant (I ditched her around
>level 15). Doing the Barrow Downs after Harmondale might have had
>something to do with that...

You'll have to spend tons of money on spellbooks for a while, though.

>?? I thought that it took 2 (or is it 3?) NPC to be able to repair
>everything. Harden potions (which I can finally make) seem to do a
>pretty good job so far...

No, there is at least one NPC who can repair everything. Look in
Stone City, there should be several of them.

Christoph Nahr

unread,
Aug 17, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/17/99
to
On Tue, 17 Aug 1999 09:07:10 +0200, Werner Arend
<kii...@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de> wrote:

>Alright. I'm not finished yet, but I'd like to add some comments, too:

Still not finished? You're really late. How are you going to play
System Shock 2 if you're not done with MM7 yet? ;-)

>I thought this would be a problem, too. But once you have mastered
>Earth Magic and learned Telekinesis, you only have to disarm by hand in
>confined quarters where you can't see the chest from far enough away to
>use the spell without damaging yourself. No problem here.

Good point, Telekinesis will make up for the lack of a Thief in the
late game.

>I'd like to know which NPCs are hired by people. Is there really anyone
>without an Instructor? I hired the enchanter (+20 to all resistances) as
>second NPC, and it has helped me quite a lot because resistances are
>hardest to get up.

I started out with banker & merchant, as usual. Later on I hired
perceptionists, teachers, repair masters, and even an armsmaster.
Hiring an enchanter would probably have been a good idea in hindsight.

Zachary S Tseng

unread,
Aug 17, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/17/99
to

Eric Marzin <ema...@klee.fr> wrote in message
news:7pb4eg$l3e$1...@klin.lan.klee.fr...

> >
> > Basically they were fine but I agree with Wromthrax that the Knight
> > should be able to GM more weapons.
> >
>
> Yes, K should be able to GM all weapons


Perhaps not in bows - a true knight won't even consider using a bow... However,
rangers should be allow to GM bows.


Cheers,

Zach
ts...@math.psu.edu


Werner Arend

unread,
Aug 18, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/18/99
to

On Tue, 17 Aug 1999, Christoph Nahr wrote:

> On Tue, 17 Aug 1999 09:07:10 +0200, Werner Arend
> <kii...@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de> wrote:
>

> >Alright. I'm not finished yet, but I'd like to add some comments, too:
>

> Still not finished? You're really late. How are you going to play
> System Shock 2 if you're not done with MM7 yet? ;-)

You got me! I *had* begun to worry about that <g>... But I borrowed
the game two weeks ago - and I'm just now on the way to Colony Zod, with
every other quest finished except the 2nd Knight Promotion (I hate those
Arena fights) - not too bad, I think. Time enough to finish before SS2
reaches these parts, end of the week or so.

> Good point, Telekinesis will make up for the lack of a Thief in the
> late game.

Late? Let's see: Water mastery is first, Air second, Earth third, making
3*(7*8/2 - 1) = 81 skill points. Since my sorcerer always gets added skill
points from Horseshoes and Genie Lamps, I usually get there somewhen
between L10 and L15 (before the Griffins will be too much a pain in the
ass).


Ah, and I'd like to add another point about the game: in-game graphics are
bad, but the artwork for the interior of the houses is really very nice,
in some cases outstanding!

Werner

Eric Marzin

unread,
Aug 18, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/18/99
to

Zachary S Tseng <ts...@math.psu.edu> a écrit dans le message :
7pc9k0$16...@r02n01.cac.psu.edu...

>
> >
> > > Basically they were fine but I agree with Wromthrax that the Knight
> > > should be able to GM more weapons.
> > >
> >
> > Yes, K should be able to GM all weapons
>
>
> Perhaps not in bows - a true knight won't even consider using a bow...
However,
> rangers should be allow to GM bows.
>
>

True, the Knight must not be allowed to GM bow, but it seems a bit hard to
play a knight without bow (and without range spell)


K. Laisathit

unread,
Aug 18, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/18/99
to
In article <7pan6u$h...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,

David Michael Kass <dk...@cco.caltech.edu> wrote:

>I get the impression that auto kill can also be stopped by a
>sufficeintly high body resistance, is that actually the case? I just
>found out the hard way that Ancient Wyverns also have auto kill
>(although only on their strike).

Can't be tested. By the time you have very high body resistance,
probably via day of pretection, the ancient Wyverns cease to
be an impressive opponent. My guess is that there is a level
spread thing going. Go toe to toe with ancient Wyvern at level
1 and you're bound to be insta-kill - even if you have the HP
to survive the hit. Do the same thing with level 50 naked, and
you probably will survive more often.

BTW, on the subject of prection of insta-kill. What's up with
preservation? The manual says that it prevents character from
instantly killed, put in unconscious instead. Never get it
to work. My cleric get killed all the time by the Mino Lords
even with preservation on (no GM body at that time).

>I've always found a merchant to be better than a banker.

Yep. But, alas, I have less money problem in MM7 than I did in
MM6. I have a scholar and instructor NPC. Don't ask me why
I had the instructor.

>They do give basic level skill to all party members that don't have
>the skill (in addition to boosting those that do). At least I know it
>is the case for the merchant skill.

That's not the point though. The point is that some skills
just aren't useful no matter how many more skill points you
pour into it. Alchemy is useful if you can mix some basic
stuff together. (A point of illustration, I don't hold an
absolute conviction on this one)

The reason the scholar is a popular choice is that he does
away with the need to invest your skill points. I think
what the original author was shooting for was a way to
work around the need to have the KTCS or any minor variation
to it. A party like DSSS is going to be killed instantly
by traps in the game repeatedly. Unless you have a high
tolerance for frustration, any big deviation from KTCS
isn't really viable.

I like specialization, but I think flexibility in party
makeup is also important. I've been thinking about the work
around, and the thread starter seems to have the answer.
NPC who can supply skills you other couldn't attain at
useful level. Why does a hunter improve your monster ID
skill only? Shouldn't he be able to tell you that the
Basilisk is a tough monster who is highly resistance to
earth magic?

Later...

Gerry Quinn

unread,
Aug 19, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/19/99
to
In article <7pfh8k$16no$1...@nntp6.u.washington.edu>, kir...@u.washington.edu (K. Laisathit) wrote:
>In article <7pan6u$h...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,
>David Michael Kass <dk...@cco.caltech.edu> wrote:
>
>>I get the impression that auto kill can also be stopped by a
>>sufficeintly high body resistance, is that actually the case? I just
>>found out the hard way that Ancient Wyverns also have auto kill
>>(although only on their strike).
>
>Can't be tested. By the time you have very high body resistance,
>probably via day of pretection, the ancient Wyverns cease to
>be an impressive opponent. My guess is that there is a level
>spread thing going. Go toe to toe with ancient Wyvern at level
>1 and you're bound to be insta-kill - even if you have the HP
>to survive the hit. Do the same thing with level 50 naked, and
>you probably will survive more often.
>


One of my characters got nuked once or twice by them as I was cleaning
out Avlee around lev 22. It was rare, though, and with a bit of caution
they weren't a threat.

- Gerry Quinn

LawLess

unread,
Aug 19, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/19/99
to
Christoph Nahr wrote:
: Completely agreed. GM skills are so much more powerful than expert or

: even M skills that the jack-of-all-trades are really useless in MM7.

Not all - look at the weapon skills for instance - GM mace is awesome,
whereas sword and some of the others don't get as huge a benefit. But
it's true that most of the skills you really really want GMs in.

: >Weapons - This weapon skills worked fine for me. Nice balance.


:
: Basically they were fine but I agree with Wromthrax that the Knight
: should be able to GM more weapons.

And the way some of the weapon skills (ax) were available only on a
character that's otherwise worthless because of the jack of all trades
syndrome. And other weapons had no good (or even interesting) types
to be found.

: I wouldn't mind if the less-than-useful NPCs were retained for flavour


: but all NPCs, across the bank, have to be *way* cheaper than they are
: now. Gatemasters are a joke, by the time you can afford you no longer
: need them (unless you play four knights).

I spent some time with a Gatemaster NPC and thought it was well worth
the expense, hiring when I had about 90 or a 100 thousand in coin at
about level twentysomething. Among other benefits - the gatemaster
has GM skill at it - thus was useful for teleporting out of difficult
quest areas after snagging the loot (or getting in trouble), even with
hostile monsters right in my people's faces.

--
-- \_awless is : Chase Vogelsberg | SSBB Undiplomatic Corps, Tampa
-- Wormwood and wine, and the bitter taste of ashes. \ ICQ #19100721

LawLess

unread,
Aug 19, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/19/99
to
Werner wrote:
>I'd like to know which NPCs are hired by people. Is there really anyone
>without an Instructor? I hired the enchanter (+20 to all resistances) as
>second NPC, and it has helped me quite a lot because resistances are
>hardest to get up.

Haven't used an instructor yet - the small increment of experience just
doesn't seem worthwhile given the way experience per level ramps up.
The enchanter is someone I may eventually hire for certain areas - the
islands with all the @#$# water elementals comes to mind. Mostly though
I've had two merchants, occasionally snagging an armsmaster, squire, or
gatemaster when I've had enough money to drop a merchant.

The one who adds to all elmental magics doesn't seem worthwhile either,
not unless you're running almost all archers, druids and sorcerors as
it doesn't help anyone else.

Ecere Seluk

unread,
Jan 24, 2024, 4:28:36 AMJan 24
to

✅🔴▶️▶ Really Amazing ️You Can Try This ◀️◀️🔴✅

✅▶️▶️ CLICK HERE Full HD✅720p✅1080p✅4K✅

WATCH ✅💻📺📱👉https://co.fastmovies.org

ᗪOᗯᑎᒪOᗩᗪ ✅📺📱💻👉https://co.fastmovies.org

🔴WATCH>>ᗪOᗯᑎᒪOᗩᗪ>>LINK>👉https://co.fastmovies.org

✅WATCH>>ᗪOᗯᑎᒪOᗩᗪ>>LINK>👉https://co.fastmovies.org

💚WATCH>>ᗪOᗯᑎᒪOᗩᗪ>>LINK>👉https://co.fastmovies.org

🔴💚 Really Amazing ️You Can Try This💚ᗪOᗯᑎᒪOᗩᗪ LINK >👉https://co.fastmovies.org

🔴💚CLICK HERE Full HD✅720p✅1080p✅4K💚WATCH💚ᗪOᗯᑎᒪOᗩᗪ LINK >👉https://co.fastmovies.org
0 new messages