KotOR - uses D&D rules?
Thrasher
that it uses the NWN game ENGINE, which is fine... however, it also
seems to use the D&D rules, which is NOT fine. It's not my day to
babysit WoTC and tell them whether or not they should sue, but it's
pretty damned sleazy of Bioware to use the exact same implementation
of the D&D rule system that they were licensed to use in NWN in an
unrelated product that as far as I can tell they were NOT licensed to
make with the D&D rule system. Furthermore, Bioware didn't even see
fit to change the terms they use to describe and define the rules.
Everything is IDENTICAL. Yet, no mention is made anywhere that I can
find on Lucas Arts website, or Bioware's, as to where the rules came
from or who developed them.
Legal or not, it's not my call, but this is the most disgraceful
behavior I have ever seen in a game company. Just how in the fuck
would Lucas Arts react if Joe Programmer, Inc started cranking out
Star Wars games without a by-your-leave or even an acknowledgement, I
wonder?
What's really shocking, though, is that none of you Bioware fanboys
even seems to *care* enough to mention this little tidbit. This is the
most blatant copyright rip-off there's ever been in the 25 year
history of computer gaming. Every other symtom of decay in the
industry aside, thise doesn't bode well for the future of the hobby.
Game designer's and developers don't make products so that another
company can steal their work and take their profits.
efishta
"Thrasher" <spect...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:pqk0sv4jgqjcq3bum...@4ax.com...
> How come none of you KotOR fans has mentioned this? I've heard before
> that it uses the NWN game ENGINE, which is fine... however, it also
> seems to use the D&D rules, which is NOT fine.
<snip>
I haven't played the game, but I do know this much:
The game doesn't use the NWN engine, it uses another one, which I can't
remember what it's called. As for the D&D rules being used, it uses a
simplified version of the Star Wars D&D rules.
sooo, you're wrong on both counts (partially wrong on the rules part)
Clogar
"It's not my day to babysit WoTC and tell them whether or not they
should sue, but it's pretty damned sleazy of Bioware to use the exact
same implementation of the D&D rule system that they were licensed to
use in NWN in an unrelated product that as far as I can tell they were
NOT licensed to make with the D&D rule system."
Kotor uses the D20 system, which is the basic game mechanics
system used in D&D 3E. D20 is also used in various other products,
including the Star Wars RPG. Kotor is based off of the Star Wars
RPG. Simple as that.
"Furthermore, Bioware didn't even see fit to change the terms they use
to describe and define the rules."
Because they're using the Star Wars RPG system. :)
"Everything is IDENTICAL. Yet, no mention is made anywhere that I can
find on Lucas Arts website, or Bioware's, as to where the rules came
from or who developed them."
This part DID surprise me. Most D20 products have the D20 label
on them (search Amazon.com to find the hundreds if not thousands of
D20 products made by third parties) - I found it strange that it was
not included on Kotor.
Personally, I think using the D20 system was a mistake - it doesn't
fit Star Wars very well, and I think the game would have been better
with a more unique system (or the old SW RPG system, for that matter).
Still, it isn't terrible.
-= Clogar
Trunk
License (d20) that Kotor uses, not mentioning Hasbro bought WoTC
recently.
Since Lucas is the publisher and Bioware the developer, they can use
the d20 system no prob.
Trunk
"Thrasher" <spect...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:pqk0sv4jgqjcq3bum...@4ax.com...
CCF
>'s really shocking, though, is that none of you Bioware fanboys
> even seems to *care* enough to mention this little tidbit. This is the
> most blatant copyright rip-off there's ever been in the 25 year
> history of computer gaming. Every other symtom of decay in the
> industry aside, thise doesn't bode well for the future of the hobby.
> Game designer's and developers don't make products so that another
> company can steal their work and take their profits.
Umm, there is a D20 Star Wars product IIRC. Calm down and enjoy the game.
Duane VanderPol
> that it uses the NWN game ENGINE, which is fine... however, it also
> seems to use the D&D rules, which is NOT fine. It's not my day to
> babysit WoTC and tell them whether or not they should sue, but it's
They undoubtedly paid for the license to use the SWRPG rules - NOT the
D&D rules, nor even the d20 rules, each of which is very similar but has
distinctly different requirements for purposes of publishing. For example,
you CAN publish material with "Dungeons & Dragons" logos and so forth
plastered all over it - but you have to pay WotC for the license and as far
as I know only one company has done that - Kenzer. Same would apply for the
use of the SWRPG rules. Pay for the license and you get to use everything
about it.
> Everything is IDENTICAL. Yet, no mention is made anywhere that I can
> find on Lucas Arts website, or Bioware's, as to where the rules came
> from or who developed them.
It's possible they wouldn't have to under terms of the license, although
I'd suspect you'll find it buried deeply in the EULA or credits somewhere.
--
Duane VanderPol
-
http://home.earthlink.net/~duanevp/
Bubick
product with an adaptation of the core d20 rules system? I think that WotC
has been trying to make D&D simply a "localized" version of the generic d20
rules set.
In other words the settings and unique item names used in the 3d edition D&D
Rules are part of the protected / licensed aspect of D&D, but the rules
itself (adapted d20 rules) are not.
So I'm not sure how fair it is to blame a product clearly based on the d20
system to be "too much like" D&D.
But it is kinda weird that KotOR doesn't advertise that it is based on the
d20 system. You would think that the marketing people would think that that
was a selling point.
"Duane VanderPol" <dua...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:fNZvb.10088$m84.3...@news1.news.adelphia.net...
Tor Iver Wilhelmsen
> Isn't the d20 system "open source," such that any publisher can make a
> product with an adaptation of the core d20 rules system? I think that WotC
> has been trying to make D&D simply a "localized" version of the generic d20
> rules set.
Yes, but to get the d20 logo you either have to pay to have your own
character creation rules, or you need to refer to a WotC game (D&D,
Star Wars, Modern) for character creation.
> But it is kinda weird that KotOR doesn't advertise that it is based on the
> d20 system. You would think that the marketing people would think that that
> was a selling point.
Perhaps the logo license prohibits it? The logo isn't present on NWN
either.
Thrasher
wrote:
> As for the D&D rules being used, it uses a
>simplified version of the Star Wars D&D rules.
Excuse me? Are you saying Lucas Arts stole Dungeons & Dragons and
modified them to work with Star Wars and you think that's legal? Lucas
Arts doesn't own the Dungeon & Dragons franchise, and neither does
Bioware, and therefore had no right to modify the D&D ruloes for use
in a non-licensed product.
So, presumably, Wizard's of the Coast could steal the Star Wars
universe and modify it for use in Dungeons & Dragons and that would be
equally legal, right? Payback is a bitch. It would serve Lucas Arts
right if every game company on the planet started cranking out Star
Wars products.
Thrasher
> This part DID surprise me. Most D20 products have the D20 label
>on them (search Amazon.com to find the hundreds if not thousands of
>D20 products made by third parties) - I found it strange that it was
>not included on Kotor.
Here's a quote in regards to a Warcraft game rulebook that's licensed
to use the Dungeons & Dragons system, and has the Dungeons & Dragons
logo on the top of the manual:
>A World of War and Magic
>D&D Warcraft RPG is published under the Open Game License
>and is 100% compatible with the newly revised Dungeons & Dragons
>3rd Edition rules and the D20 System. The game setting features
>brand new core classes and prestige classes, including the scout
>and warlock, plus other unique elements like firearms and other
>industrial technology that add an exciting new element to fantasy
>roleplay. Hardcover.
Now, I'm no fan of Wizard's of the Coast... the D&D franchise has gone
to shit under their control, and they can't even get their damned
versions strait. They call their currect rules the 3rd Edition even
though there was only one prior edition of the rules published under
the name of D&D, and two prior editions published under the now
defunct name of AD&D. Which is probably why they seem to be trying to
change the name to D20 and sidestep the whole issue. As far as I'm
concerned they deserve to lose control over the Dungeons & Dragons
franchise.
But that doesn't make it right for Bioware to have used an adapted
version of the licensed D&D game, Neverwinter Nights, to make an
UN-licensed game for Lucas Arts. And if it was licensed, they would
goddamn well say it was licensed. This is the first commercially
released computer game that's ever come out using the D&D rules
without carrying the D&D logo.
> Personally, I think using the D20 system was a mistake - it doesn't
>fit Star Wars very well
Well, what does? Has there been another CRPG in a Star Wars setting
that I missed somewhere along the way? I would be inclined to agree
with you on general principals, though. The NWN implementation of the
D&D system was awful even in a game designed from the ground up to use
it. Now, if Lucas Arts had gone with the D&D implementation in Temple
of Elemental Evil, things might be different. That game had about the
best modelled tactical combat I've seen in a computer game.
>and I think the game would have been better with a more unique system
Well, that depends on the system. Interplay developed the SPECIAL
system for Fallout when they had a falling out (no pun intended) with
Steve Jackson and decided not to use the GURPS system. That worked
fine... however, Fallout was a real RPG and it wouldn't have been a
very good game if it was just a shoot-em-up hybrid RPG, as I
understand KotOR to be.
>or the old SW RPG system, for that matter).
The term "old" is relative. There's never been a Star Wars computer
RPG before KotOR - and no, I don't count SWG - and neither was there a
Star Wars tabletop RPG when I stopped playing Tabletop games back in
the early 80s. The original Star Wars movie itself is younger than
Dungeons & Dragons by several years.
However, in my opinion the best rules to have been adapted for use
with a Star Wars game, or any other sci-fi game, would not have been
based on Dungeons & Dragons but rather on the Warhammer 40k rule
system put out by Games Workshop. Those rules already include armored
vehicles, jet bikes, hover craft, flyers, heavy weapons, personal
weapons, modern body armor etc etc... in many different variations.
And they've been around for 20 years and are well established.
>Still, it isn't terrible.
I think it's terrible, philosophically... I'll never know how it is in
practice because I don't intend to play it. Bioware obviously didn't
make KotOR for people like me. They didn't make NWN for people like me
either. I'm not sure who they DID make it for, and I'm not
particularly interested in finding out. I'm just waiting for them to
go away and make room for new startups that are actually interested in
my money. Despite what some people say in this newsgroup I just don't
believe that there are enough people who want to play the same game on
a console AND on a PC to make such endeavers profitable for an outfit
like Bioware.
For instance, the same Best Buy 2 blocks from my house that had 3
aisles (that's 6 rows of shelves) in the computer software section
devoted to PC games 5 years ago now has HALF of 1 row of shelves for
PC games. Electronics Boutique in my local mall used to have over half
their store devoted to PC titles. Now there's 1 little section. In the
back.
But it ain't the retailers fault. There aren't many PC games coming
out and most the ones that are released would be hard to sell out of
the bargain bin. Things won't stay this way forever <shrug>. Somebody
will step up to fill the vacuum as soon as companies like Bioware get
out of the PC game industry that gave them life.
Hong Ooi
>
>Now, I'm no fan of Wizard's of the Coast... the D&D franchise has gone
>to shit under their control, and they can't even get their damned
>versions strait. They call their currect rules the 3rd Edition even
>though there was only one prior edition of the rules published under
>the name of D&D, and two prior editions published under the now
>defunct name of AD&D. Which is probably why they seem to be trying to
>change the name to D20 and sidestep the whole issue. As far as I'm
>concerned they deserve to lose control over the Dungeons & Dragons
>franchise.
>
>But that doesn't make it right for Bioware to have used an adapted
>version of the licensed D&D game, Neverwinter Nights, to make an
>UN-licensed game for Lucas Arts. And if it was licensed, they would
>goddamn well say it was licensed. This is the first commercially
>released computer game that's ever come out using the D&D rules
>without carrying the D&D logo.
What on earth are you babbling about now, Thrasher?
--
Hong Ooi | "Does *anyone* at WOTC bother to
ho...@zipworld.com.au | _think_ when making housecat stats?"
http://www.zipworld.com.au/~hong/dnd/ | -- MSB
Sydney, Australia |
Julie d'Aubigny
>
> How come none of you KotOR fans has mentioned this? I've heard before
> that it uses the NWN game ENGINE, which is fine... however, it also
> seems to use the D&D rules, which is NOT fine.
That's because you're an idiot. It uses a modified version of the Star
Wars d20 rules, which are based on the same core as D&D, but are not D&D
rules. You would be offering misleading information to claim such a
stupidly wrong thing - like the idea that perhaps the Force powers are
only usable a certain number of times per "day." Especially since you
don't really "rest" in the game.
> It's not my day to
> babysit WoTC and tell them whether or not they should sue, but it's
> pretty damned sleazy of Bioware to use the exact same implementation
> of the D&D rule system that they were licensed to use in NWN in an
> unrelated product that as far as I can tell they were NOT licensed to
> make with the D&D rule system.
You are a fool and an idiot. Of course they were licensed to use the
rules. WotC is even posting Star Wars d20 statistics for various KOTOR
items, such as creatures, characters, and the like. The rules are
clearly not the same as the NWN implementation. After all, there's no
encumbrance, and no iterative attacks for BAB +6 or higher. Some things
work similarly, but that's only to be expected in a real time engine
that's built on the same base as Aurora.
> Furthermore, Bioware didn't even see
> fit to change the terms they use to describe and define the rules.
> Everything is IDENTICAL. Yet, no mention is made anywhere that I can
> find on Lucas Arts website, or Bioware's, as to where the rules came
> from or who developed them.
That's because you're a dolt and a poltroon, of course.
WotC seems remarkably unconcerned about the usage:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/sw20031009malak
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/sw20031002rakghoul
But here, have a FAQ:
http://www.lucasarts.com/products/swkotor/GI_faq.html#10
> Legal or not, it's not my call, but this is the most disgraceful
> behavior I have ever seen in a game company. Just how in the fuck
> would Lucas Arts react if Joe Programmer, Inc started cranking out
> Star Wars games without a by-your-leave or even an acknowledgement, I
> wonder?
This post is the most disgraceful thing I've ever seen from an idiot.
You're doing your breed a disservice.
> What's really shocking, though, is that none of you Bioware fanboys
> even seems to *care* enough to mention this little tidbit.
It's come up several times in conversations about KOTOR. When KOTOR was
first announced, some of the first speculations were about whether it
would use the Star Wars d20 rules. If you've really been hanging around
since 1993, you *might have noticed*.
> This is the
> most blatant copyright rip-off there's ever been in the 25 year
> history of computer gaming.
Already disproved that one.
> Every other symtom of decay in the
> industry aside, thise doesn't bode well for the future of the hobby.
> Game designer's and developers don't make products so that another
> company can steal their work and take their profits.
And they did not. You're simply[1] living on the Bizarro World.
[1] "Simply" being a key word.
--
Elizabeth D. Brooks | kali.ma...@comcast.net | US2002021724
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
AeonAdventure | "Dobby likes us!" -- Smeagol
-- http://www.theonering.net/scrapbook/view/6856
Julie d'Aubigny
>
> "Thrasher" <spect...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:pqk0sv4jgqjcq3bum...@4ax.com...
> > How come none of you KotOR fans has mentioned this? I've heard before
> > that it uses the NWN game ENGINE, which is fine... however, it also
> > seems to use the D&D rules, which is NOT fine.
>
> <snip>
>
> I haven't played the game, but I do know this much:
>
> The game doesn't use the NWN engine, it uses another one, which I can't
> remember what it's called. As for the D&D rules being used, it uses a
> simplified version of the Star Wars D&D rules.
It uses an engine that's been developed from Aurora, but is not Aurora.
Julie d'Aubigny
>
> "Everything is IDENTICAL. Yet, no mention is made anywhere that I can
> find on Lucas Arts website, or Bioware's, as to where the rules came
> from or who developed them."
>
> This part DID surprise me. Most D20 products have the D20 label
> on them (search Amazon.com to find the hundreds if not thousands of
> D20 products made by third parties) - I found it strange that it was
> not included on Kotor.
The d20 license doesn't extend to computer games.
> Personally, I think using the D20 system was a mistake - it doesn't
> fit Star Wars very well, and I think the game would have been better
> with a more unique system (or the old SW RPG system, for that matter).
> Still, it isn't terrible.
Actually, the D20 system fits Star Wars better than D6 ever did. For one
thing, all characters fit on a reasonable curve, rather than the
inflated version that D6 resorted to. West End Games has always had a
problem with letting PCs be as cool as setting characters in their
games, though.
Julie d'Aubigny
>
> Umm, there is a D20 Star Wars product IIRC. Calm down and enjoy the game.
He doesn't want to. He wants to hate the game because it bit him.
Julie d'Aubigny
>
> But it is kinda weird that KotOR doesn't advertise that it is based on the
> d20 system. You would think that the marketing people would think that that
> was a selling point.
Star Wars is more of a selling point.
Julie d'Aubigny
>
> So, presumably, Wizard's of the Coast could steal the Star Wars
> universe and modify it for use in Dungeons & Dragons and that would be
> equally legal, right? Payback is a bitch. It would serve Lucas Arts
> right if every game company on the planet started cranking out Star
> Wars products.
So, you've been a poster here since before yesterday, so when exactly
did you fall off the turnip truck?
Julie d'Aubigny
>
> I think it's terrible, philosophically... I'll never know how it is in
> practice because I don't intend to play it. Bioware obviously didn't
> make KotOR for people like me. They didn't make NWN for people like me
> either. I'm not sure who they DID make it for, and I'm not
> particularly interested in finding out. I'm just waiting for them to
> go away and make room for new startups that are actually interested in
> my money. Despite what some people say in this newsgroup I just don't
> believe that there are enough people who want to play the same game on
> a console AND on a PC to make such endeavers profitable for an outfit
> like Bioware.
They're not likely to go away, not when they've published a "killer app"
for the XBox (that being KOTOR, KOTOR currently driving up XBox sales).
As for KOTOR for PC, anything they make on that is pure gravy.
With something like this, they're not going anywhere soon. Well,
probably as fast as Blizzard without Blizzard North is.
> But it ain't the retailers fault. There aren't many PC games coming
> out and most the ones that are released would be hard to sell out of
> the bargain bin. Things won't stay this way forever <shrug>. Somebody
> will step up to fill the vacuum as soon as companies like Bioware get
> out of the PC game industry that gave them life.
Life must be hell, being you.
Lynley James
wrote:
Read the other posts. WoTC has a license to produce a PnP Star Wars
game. They have done so using their d20 rules system. It has been
modified some to take into account that this is the Star Wars universe
and not D&D. Bioware have used thisd20 SW system for KoTOR. No party
stole anything.
Lynley
Trunk
> On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 06:59:38 GMT, "efishta" <sorr...@sorrydude.com>
> wrote:
>
> > As for the D&D rules being used, it uses a
> >simplified version of the Star Wars D&D rules.
>
> Excuse me? Are you saying Lucas Arts stole Dungeons & Dragons and
> modified them to work with Star Wars and you think that's legal? Lucas
> Arts doesn't own the Dungeon & Dragons franchise, and neither does
> Bioware, and therefore had no right to modify the D&D ruloes for use
> in a non-licensed product.
Lucas has lotsa shares of Hasbro and kind of owns them.
Hasbro owns WoTC who owns D&D. Also Hasbro and Lucas
have partnership over this licensing...
> So, presumably, Wizard's of the Coast could steal the Star Wars
> universe and modify it for use in Dungeons & Dragons and that would be
> equally legal, right? Payback is a bitch. It would serve Lucas Arts
> right if every game company on the planet started cranking out Star
> Wars products.
Hey, they own it and have the licensing rights, so they could use it.
toolstech
Thrasher, just because you don't know or understand what agreements and
arrangements exist between Lucas Arts, Bioware and WoTC does not preclude
that such an agreement exists. Both Lucas Arts and Bioware have worked
closely enough with WoTC in the past that there is no way that they would
have released the game without licensing all in check
Next time, before thrasing out half cocked, you might actually want to check
the D20 website. I'll provide the relevant link here. You will see from
this link just what some others have posted. Lucas and Hasbro already have
a Star Wars D20 system worked out.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/mainrpg/rpg
There is, therefore, an extensive existing agreement between Lucas Arts and
WoTC, and this game is using the Star Wars D20 system as described at the
link above. Hence, no logo required.
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.541 / Virus Database: 335 - Release Date: 11/14/2003
Lizard
wrotC:DRIVE_E
>How come none of you KotOR fans has mentioned this? I've heard before
>that it uses the NWN game ENGINE, which is fine... however, it also
>seems to use the D&D rules, which is NOT fine.
It uses the Star Wars RPG engine, which, though published by WOTC, is
licensed by LucasArts and they can do whatever they want with it.
*----------------------------------------------------*
Evolution doesn't take prisoners:Lizard
"I've heard of this thing men call 'empathy', but I've never
once been afflicted with it, thanks the Gods." Bruno The Bandit
http://www.mrlizard.com
Alexander Mars
>Date: 11/23/2003 5:31 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <3FC0B819...@comcast.net>
>
>Thrasher wrote:
>>
>> So, presumably, Wizard's of the Coast could steal the Star Wars
>> universe and modify it for use in Dungeons & Dragons and that would be
>> equally legal, right? Payback is a bitch. It would serve Lucas Arts
>> right if every game company on the planet started cranking out Star
>> Wars products.
>
>So, you've been a poster here since before yesterday, so when exactly
>did you fall off the turnip truck?
I've seen Thrasher fuck up before but I've never seen him this uninformed and
with as many of his feet in his mouth.
Carry on, this is funny.
-Well, God was my co-pilot....but we crashed into a mountain and I had to eat
Him.
www.atar.com/alexmars (yet another useless web site)
James Garvin
Thrasher, you get the golf clap! *golf clap* This is, bar none, your
best post EVER!! How do you do it??
Rick Russell
Thrasher <spect...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> How come none of you KotOR fans has mentioned this? I've heard before
> that it uses the NWN game ENGINE, which is fine... however, it also
> seems to use the D&D rules, which is NOT fine. It's not my day to
Tron
pen and paper rpg,I don't htink any theft was committed by LucasArts or
WoTC.
--
Tron
----
"I don't know how many times someone has come up
to me and said 'Hey! Let's dance!'
I hate dancing. God it's stupid."
--- David Bowienews:5ku0svok7mm6289kf...@4ax.com...
John Lewis
<kali.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
>Thrasher wrote:
>>
>> So, presumably, Wizard's of the Coast could steal the Star Wars
>> universe and modify it for use in Dungeons & Dragons and that would be
>> equally legal, right? Payback is a bitch. It would serve Lucas Arts
>> right if every game company on the planet started cranking out Star
>> Wars products.
>
>So, you've been a poster here since before yesterday, so when exactly
>did you fall off the turnip truck?
>
LOL.............
He's a silly pontificating ass.............
John Lewis
John Lewis
wrote:
>On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 06:59:38 GMT, "efishta" <sorr...@sorrydude.com>
Thrasher,
Why don't you dust off your table-top D&D stuff and try to find
somebody to play with you ? You sure do seem to be very lonely
indeed and completely out of place in the CRPG newsgroup.
The only justification for your long bandwidth-wasting tirades is if
you are personally losing copyright money. I am sure that the
companies involved have taken care of the legal situation
(if any) without your bull (-in-a-china-shop )..........
Otherwise, jump off your soap-box into the nearest lake that you
can find, thrash around there and leave the rest of us in peace.
For me, back to enjoying KotOR.........
Don't worry, be happy.............
John Lewis
Martin Feller
"Trunk" <tr...@dbzz.net> wrote in message
news:EKKdnevg0P5...@wideopenwest.com...
> George Lucas owns Hasbro
No. He doesn't.
Bryan J. Maloney
thusnews:pqk0sv4jgqjcq3bum...@4ax.com:
> that it uses the NWN game ENGINE, which is fine... however, it also
> seems to use the D&D rules, which is NOT fine. It's not my day to
> babysit WoTC and tell them whether or not they should sue, but it's
> pretty damned sleazy of Bioware to use the exact same implementation
Dear moron:
Me am use not big words since you be am real big time not smart. There am
be role play game made by wizard coast. It am be Star Wars game. It am
be use D and D like rules. It am be use by bioware under license. You am
be much big not smart.
Bryan J. Maloney
thusnews:5ku0svok7mm6289kf...@4ax.com:
> On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 06:59:38 GMT, "efishta" <sorr...@sorrydude.com>
> wrote:
>
>> As for the D&D rules being used, it uses a
>>simplified version of the Star Wars D&D rules.
>
> Excuse me? Are you saying Lucas Arts stole Dungeons & Dragons and
> modified them to work with Star Wars and you think that's legal? Lucas
You are a remarkably stupid waste of carbon. Please look at the
following:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/mainrpg/rpg
Indeed, I have not seen anyone as stupid and pointless as you in a long
time. You could easily be replaced by a potted plant, and the result
would be superior to your own existence.
Bryan J. Maloney
thusnews:3FC10760...@nmt.edu:
> Thrasher, you get the golf clap! *golf clap* This is, bar none, your
> best post EVER!! How do you do it??
Oh, shush, he gives me excuses to try out insults.
Ben Sisson
IS his real name) conspiratorially whispered:
>Thrasher wrote:
>>
>> What's really shocking, though, is that none of you Bioware fanboys
>> even seems to *care* enough to mention this little tidbit. This is the
>> most blatant copyright rip-off there's ever been in the 25 year
>> history of computer gaming. Every other symtom of decay in the
>> industry aside, thise doesn't bode well for the future of the hobby.
>> Game designer's and developers don't make products so that another
>> company can steal their work and take their profits.
>
>Thrasher, you get the golf clap! *golf clap* This is, bar none, your
>best post EVER!! How do you do it??
I am having a hard time believing even Thrasher would be that dense as
well. If, in the past, he had ever shown even a shred of intelligence
I would have concluded this post was a troll.
John Lewis
LOL !!
John Lewis
Jonah Falcon
"Julie d'Aubigny" <kali.ma...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:3FC0B900...@comcast.net...
> Thrasher wrote:
> >
> > I think it's terrible, philosophically... I'll never know how it is in
> > practice because I don't intend to play it. Bioware obviously didn't
> > make KotOR for people like me. They didn't make NWN for people like me
> > either. I'm not sure who they DID make it for, and I'm not
> > particularly interested in finding out. I'm just waiting for them to
> > go away and make room for new startups that are actually interested in
> > my money. Despite what some people say in this newsgroup I just don't
> > believe that there are enough people who want to play the same game on
> > a console AND on a PC to make such endeavers profitable for an outfit
> > like Bioware.
>
> They're not likely to go away, not when they've published a "killer app"
> for the XBox (that being KOTOR, KOTOR currently driving up XBox sales).
>
> As for KOTOR for PC, anything they make on that is pure gravy.
>
> With something like this, they're not going anywhere soon. Well,
> probably as fast as Blizzard without Blizzard North is.
>
> > But it ain't the retailers fault. There aren't many PC games coming
> > out and most the ones that are released would be hard to sell out of
> > the bargain bin. Things won't stay this way forever <shrug>. Somebody
> > will step up to fill the vacuum as soon as companies like Bioware get
> > out of the PC game industry that gave them life.
>
> Life must be hell, being you.
Funny, but a friend has the Star Wars RPG and it uses 20 sided dice. Big
whoop.
Jonah Falcon
Julie d'Aubigny
> >did you fall off the turnip truck?
>
> I've seen Thrasher fuck up before but I've never seen him this uninformed and
> with as many of his feet in his mouth.
I almost posted "So, you've been a poster here since 1993, but I can't
believe you've been off the turnip truck for ten years."
It is unfair to flame him for being stupid, though. I mean, he does it
all the time.
> Carry on, this is funny.
--
Julie d'Aubigny
I like the Bizarro styling here. Definite style points.
Julie d'Aubigny
>
> Funny, but a friend has the Star Wars RPG and it uses 20 sided dice. Big
> whoop.
Is that a reply to Thrasher? 'Cause it doesn't make any sense in a reply
to me.
George Mealer
news:9mv0sv0i3r7ho91u4...@4ax.com:
> Well, what does? Has there been another CRPG in a Star Wars setting
> that I missed somewhere along the way? I would be inclined to agree
West End (known primarily for Torg and Paranoia) did one in the early 90s.
Geo
--
George Mealer
geo*AT*snarksoft*DOT*com
"Alright, it's Saturday night...I have no date, a two-liter bottle
of Shasta, and my all-Rush mix tape. Let's rock!" -- Philip J. Fry
GungHo
news:pqk0sv4jgqjcq3bum...@4ax.com:
> How come none of you KotOR fans has mentioned this?
Thrasher, darling... There is a SW RPG that uses D20/D&D rules. And it's
published by WotC. And it's licensed by Lucas.
GungHo
news:5ku0svok7mm6289kf...@4ax.com:
> Excuse me? Are you saying Lucas Arts stole Dungeons & Dragons and
> modified them to work with Star Wars and you think that's legal?
Thrasher, you're making an ass of yourself. Please be quiet and read.
GungHo
@corp.supernews.com:
George Lucas owns Thrasher.
chainbreaker
> Thrasher, you're making an ass of yourself. Please be quiet and read.
But he does it soooooo well . . .
--
chainbreaker
If you need to email, then chainbreaker (naturally) at comcast dot
net--that's "net" not "com"--should do it.
Lynley James
Thing is, he posted a couple of times and then buggered off again.
I'm beginning to think that Thrasher is just a VERY good troll.
Lynley
Julie d'Aubigny
He once posted that he's never wrong, because when he is, he can't stand
to be around people for the shame of it all.
Part of me would prefer it if he were though. I mean, if he's really
like that...that's a bit sick.
chainbreaker
> Thing is, he posted a couple of times and then buggered off again.
> I'm beginning to think that Thrasher is just a VERY good troll.
>
> Lynley
It's a very noticeable pattern. He often drops a shit bomb, then bugs out
when the smell gets thick.
Mark Morrison
<kali.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
>Lynley James wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 12:43:24 GMT, GungHo <gu...@ho.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Thrasher <spect...@hotmail.com> wrote in
>> >news:5ku0svok7mm6289kf...@4ax.com:
>> >
>> >> Excuse me? Are you saying Lucas Arts stole Dungeons & Dragons and
>> >> modified them to work with Star Wars and you think that's legal?
>> >
>> >Thrasher, you're making an ass of yourself. Please be quiet and read.
>>
>> Thing is, he posted a couple of times and then buggered off again.
>> I'm beginning to think that Thrasher is just a VERY good troll.
>
>He once posted that he's never wrong, because when he is, he can't stand
>to be around people for the shame of it all.
>
>Part of me would prefer it if he were though. I mean, if he's really
>like that...that's a bit sick.
And funny.
--
Bunnies aren't just cute like everybody supposes !
They got them hoppy legs and twitchy little noses !
And what's with all the carrots ?
What do they need such good eyesight for anyway ?
Bunnies ! Bunnies ! It must be BUNNIES !
.hoy.
> This is the
> most blatant copyright rip-off there's ever been in the 25 year
> history of computer gaming. Every other symtom of decay in the
> industry aside, thise doesn't bode well for the future of the hobby.
> Game designer's and developers don't make products so that another
> company can steal their work and take their profits.
Because that's the job of casual copiers and professional pirates.
--
hoy.
p.s. nice one. got lotta traffic this time
.hoy.
No. He doesn't.
He pwns Thrasher.
James Garvin
>
> Thrasher <spect...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:9mv0sv0i3r7ho91u4...@4ax.com:
>
> > Well, what does? Has there been another CRPG in a Star Wars setting
> > that I missed somewhere along the way? I would be inclined to agree
>
> West End (known primarily for Torg and Paranoia) did one in the early 90s.
Torg would make a cool CRPG, but the rule set needs to be cleaned up....
Øystein Tvedten
> On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 06:59:38 GMT, "efishta" <sorr...@sorrydude.com>
> wrote:
>
>> As for the D&D rules being used, it uses a
>>simplified version of the Star Wars D&D rules.
>
> So, presumably, Wizard's of the Coast could steal the Star Wars
> universe and modify it for use in Dungeons & Dragons and that would be
> equally legal, right? Payback is a bitch. It would serve Lucas Arts
> right if every game company on the planet started cranking out Star
> Wars products.
Well if you'd bother checking, you'd see that WOTC has the current
license for Star Wars RPGs, and has published the Star Wars D20 RPG,
which KOTOR uses rules from.
Øystein
--
Roy Batty: I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships
on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the
dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time,
like tears in rain. Time to die.
John Henders
> This part DID surprise me. Most D20 products have the D20 label
>on them (search Amazon.com to find the hundreds if not thousands of
>D20 products made by third parties) - I found it strange that it was
>not included on Kotor.
It could well be that because the D20 people need a license from Lucas
to use Star Wars, having the Lucas licence gave Bioware the rights to
use the D20 system uncredited.
> Personally, I think using the D20 system was a mistake - it doesn't
>fit Star Wars very well, and I think the game would have been better
>with a more unique system (or the old SW RPG system, for that matter).
>Still, it isn't terrible.
I don't think it was needed much either, but as Bioware is obviously
familiar with designing games around that kind of system it was
probably easier for them to develop than working up their own system
from scratch. In a way it's not that much different from SPECIAL really.
--
Artificial Intelligence stands no chance against Natural Stupidity.
GAT d- -p+(--) c++++ l++ u++ t- m--- W--- !v
b+++ e* s-/+ n-(?) h++ f+g+ w+++ y*
Tor Iver Wilhelmsen
> Torg would make a cool CRPG, but the rule set needs to be cleaned up....
It was cleaned up, and released as the Master System: Example
sourcebooks include a pulp horror thingie called Bloodshadows, Indiana
Jones (apparently even worse than TSR's attempt), and... wait for
it... TANK GIRL!
Sank like a rock of course.
George Mealer
news:uoev0m...@broadpark.no:
Huh. Yeah, Torg was a neat setting for a game world, but god, the ruleset
sucked. I did enjoy the paperbacks that West End released based on the
game, though. I wonder if I would have enjoyed the master system, had I
known it existed.
Geo
--
George Mealer | geo*at*snarksoft*dot*com