Monthly fee are pure theft (Was Guild Wars is SO MUCH BETTER Than WOW)
Jan Potocki
and commenting. (Se my above longer answer). That part has nothing to
do with WOW.
I just said that I'll never ever pay full price for game
just to play it only one month or so or even neither that in some
cases. And continue to pay that same game every month again and again
and at the end not have opportunity to came back to that game and play
it 10- 15- 20 year later :-). And not to have opportunity to resell it
when I am tired of it....
I hope that all you with all the money in the world to spend on 100%
theft got the point now ;-)
Let the FREE source be with you all!
Briarroot
Ok, so you don't understand the meaning of the word: "theft." Big
deal. We got that part already. Move on.
Nostromo
Anno Domini:
What some brave developer should *really* do is provide one of 2 options for
a mmorpg:
1. buy the game up front & get 6 mths free (or about 50% more time than by
paying the monthly fees)
2. Pay nothing up front, but pay the full monthly premium each month
What would everyone most likely subscribe to?
--
A killfile is a friend for life.
Replace 'spamfree' with the other word for 'maze' to reply via email.
Shawk
"Nostromo" <nost...@spamfree.net.au> wrote in message
news:6dck02hf8pjsnnscn...@4ax.com...
If it wasn't for the GW model (pay once) then I'd never have gotten into RPG
or MMORPG's. It's opened up a new gaming genre for me.
Xocyll
of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:
>Thus spake Jan Potocki <cvi...@yahoo.se>, Sat, 04 Mar 2006 23:17:15 GMT,
>Anno Domini:
>
>>OK guys my answer to all who kindly argued about my not playing WOW
>>and commenting. (Se my above longer answer). That part has nothing to
>>do with WOW.
>>
>> I just said that I'll never ever pay full price for game
>>just to play it only one month or so or even neither that in some
>>cases. And continue to pay that same game every month again and again
>>and at the end not have opportunity to came back to that game and play
>>it 10- 15- 20 year later :-). And not to have opportunity to resell it
>>when I am tired of it....
>>
>>I hope that all you with all the money in the world to spend on 100%
>>theft got the point now ;-)
>>
>>Let the FREE source be with you all!
>
>
>What some brave developer should *really* do is provide one of 2 options for
>a mmorpg:
>
>1. buy the game up front & get 6 mths free (or about 50% more time than by
>paying the monthly fees)
This would HAVE to be immediately accessible, not just after providing
credit card number or time card number.
>2. Pay nothing up front, but pay the full monthly premium each month
>
>What would everyone most likely subscribe to?
Hard to say.
I'd also add another thing to the wish list, paying a small premium for
more character storage so the alt-o-holics can have as many alts as they
wish to pay for.
I'd pay Arena Net for more GW character slots.
Hrm, they could put out an expansion that nothing more than add 4 more
slots - or 8 more or...
Maybe just 4/expansion but you can apply multiple expansions of this
type to one account.
At say a $10-15 charge, they'd probably sell quite a few.
Heck all the alt-o-holics would get at least one, and the farmers would
buy them for more storage space.
Xocyll
--
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr
TheSmokingGnu
> Heck all the alt-o-holics would get at least one, and the farmers would
> buy them for more storage space.
You could just buy another account, you know. Then you get 8 slots to
fill with alts galore! If you want to trade items cross-account, you
just need a good buddy or a second computer.
TheSmokingGnu
Highlandish
<6hek021n4ive7s9ra...@4ax.com>
> Hard to say.
>
> I'd also add another thing to the wish list, paying a small premium
> for more character storage so the alt-o-holics can have as many alts
> as they wish to pay for.
>
> I'd pay Arena Net for more GW character slots.
>
> Hrm, they could put out an expansion that nothing more than add 4 more
> slots - or 8 more or...
> Maybe just 4/expansion but you can apply multiple expansions of this
> type to one account.
> At say a $10-15 charge, they'd probably sell quite a few.
> Heck all the alt-o-holics would get at least one, and the farmers
> would buy them for more storage space.
>
> Xocyll
slightly OT, but is there premium content in GW that standard purchases
don't get? I noticed some characters dance in town and you see illusions
around that character, is that a premium thing?
--
Remove the _CURSEING to reply to me
"We live as though the world were as it should be, to show it what it
can be."
John Secker
<nost...@spamfree.net.au> writes
>a mmorpg:
>
>1. buy the game up front & get 6 mths free (or about 50% more time than by
>paying the monthly fees)
>2. Pay nothing up front, but pay the full monthly premium each month
>
>What would everyone most likely subscribe to?
>
I am not stuck with a big cost if I don't like it. I'm quite happy with
the monthly fee on the game I currently play (Eve) - it costs me about
£10 a month ($15) and I don't buy any other games now - I have saved a
bomb in the year I have been playing. I used to buy at least one
(offline) game a month before I got into MMORPGs. So if this is theft,
give me more of it.
--
John Secker
Nostromo
+0000, Anno Domini:
Dunno, GW cost me AU$70 last July & I've been at it (on & off) for 8 mths. I
broke even on most other mmorpgs after just 3.5 mths & only 1 lasted longer
than that (CoH) & they were all pay up front PLUS monthly fee, so I'm well &
truly ahead no matter which way I cut it. The reason I asked the question is
to see which model ppl would prefer if they *had to* pay monthly.
Andrew
<nost...@spamfree.net.au> wrote:
>What would everyone most likely subscribe to?
I think for MMORPG's that want you to pay monthly, the clients should
be free to download and give you a week or so free play. If they are
any good people will get hooked and stay.
Personally I can't afford to pay for the likes of WOW, so GW is the
better solution for me. I also enjoy it a lot more that WOW.
--
Andrew, contact via interpleb.blogspot.com
Help make Usenet a better place: English is read downwards,
please don't top post. Trim replies to quote only relevant text.
Check groups.google.com before asking an obvious question.
Xocyll
entrails of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs
say:
>Quoth The Raven; Xocyll <Xoc...@kingston.net> in
><6hek021n4ive7s9ra...@4ax.com>
>> Hard to say.
>>
>> I'd also add another thing to the wish list, paying a small premium
>> for more character storage so the alt-o-holics can have as many alts
>> as they wish to pay for.
>>
>> I'd pay Arena Net for more GW character slots.
>>
>> Hrm, they could put out an expansion that nothing more than add 4 more
>> slots - or 8 more or...
>> Maybe just 4/expansion but you can apply multiple expansions of this
>> type to one account.
>> At say a $10-15 charge, they'd probably sell quite a few.
>> Heck all the alt-o-holics would get at least one, and the farmers
>> would buy them for more storage space.
>>
>> Xocyll
>
>slightly OT, but is there premium content in GW that standard purchases
>don't get? I noticed some characters dance in town and you see illusions
>around that character, is that a premium thing?
I think the pre-order folk or dvd edition or somesuch get glowy hands
when they dance.
A more useless "bonus" would be hard to think up.
Xocyll
reading the entrails of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good,
the signs say:
>Xocyll wrote:
Yes I know that, however I and many other people wouldn't want to buy
the game again, just some more storage.
$10-15 or maybe even $20 for 4 more slots is doable, and even the non
alt-o-holics and farmers might shell out for it.
$60 for the entire game to get another 4 _unconnected_ slots isn't much
of an attraction except for the farmers who are selling on EBay for real
cash.
They went with 4 to keep costs down, so selling Just slots is a way to
give more slots to those that want them at a price commensurate to
they'll be getting.
Mean_Chlorine
>They went with 4 to keep costs down, so selling Just slots is a way to
>give more slots to those that want them at a price commensurate to
>they'll be getting.
I'd happily pay $10 per extra slot. I'd plonk down $40 for four new
slots tomorrow if that was possible.
--
O
-|- <--- Caricature of Muhammed.
/ \
Mean_Chlorine
>truly ahead no matter which way I cut it. The reason I asked the question is
>to see which model ppl would prefer if they *had to* pay monthly.
I don't know what people would prefer, but I would guess that "pay up
front & play for free" would be the more successful, simply because
many gamers are reluctant to give out credit card information (or for
whatever reason does not have one).
Mean_Chlorine
>I think the pre-order folk or dvd edition or somesuch get glowy hands
>when they dance.
That's the collectors edition. The pre-order contained one or several
unique items. It is widely assumed that the new pre-order (for
factions) will also contain unique items.
But yeah, buying the collectors edition seems pointless to me. Game
makers may have finally gotten the memo about releasing "collectors
editions/directors cut" versions, but they still have a bit to learn
about justifying the extra cost of those versions to the customer.
>Xocyll
Zyan
>
> What some brave developer should *really* do is provide one of 2 options
> for
> a mmorpg:
>
> 1. buy the game up front & get 6 mths free (or about 50% more time than by
> paying the monthly fees)
> 2. Pay nothing up front, but pay the full monthly premium each month
>
> What would everyone most likely subscribe to?
The second option is nothing new. Quite a few Korean MMORPGs are that way.
Download the game for free. Play it for free for a limited period and then
pay for each periodically (either one month, 3 months or 6 months with the
longer periods having a discount).
John Secker
<spamtrap@localhost.?.invalid> writes
>On Sun, 05 Mar 2006 11:35:33 +1100, Nostromo
><nost...@spamfree.net.au> wrote:
>
>>What would everyone most likely subscribe to?
>
>I think for MMORPG's that want you to pay monthly, the clients should
>be free to download and give you a week or so free play. If they are
>any good people will get hooked and stay.
>
(I think 30 days, though it keeps changing) and by that time you know
whether you want to shell Ł10 a month.
--
John Secker
John Secker
product, I WANT them to have a regular income stream which depends on
them keeping their existing base (ie me) happy. I DON'T want them to be
spending their time dreaming up good things for "brand new customers
only". I would certainly not want them to take financial risks by
offering deals which might in the end bankrupt them. I have a strong
interest in their continued financial health, in the way that I do not
if, say, my local supermarket makes too many offers and goes bust. In
that case I just go across the road for my milk and eggs. I can't just
go to another provider to continue my current MMORPG. In that sense I am
more like the fan of a sports team than a customer - the relationship is
more complicated than me just wanting to get the cheapest deal that I
can.
--
John Secker
Sarah
news:nt4l021fo2b6b4k2b...@4ax.com...
> Yes I know that, however I and many other people wouldn't want to buy
> the game again, just some more storage.
I bought another account just to get 4 more slots. Obviously if there was a
(cheaper) way to buy only slots, I would have gone that route, but there
isn't. From chatting in game and reading forums, there are quite a number of
players who own more than one account and aren't farmers. I didn't pay $60.
I think another copy of the game cost me $50 (CDN), so I paid a little over
$12 per slot. Not bad.
BTW, for anyone who is playing GW, they rejigged a lot of skills with the
latest update--check out the March 2 update on the official site.
Xocyll
entrails of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs
say:
>"Xocyll" <Xoc...@kingston.net> wrote in message
>news:nt4l021fo2b6b4k2b...@4ax.com...
>
>> Yes I know that, however I and many other people wouldn't want to buy
>> the game again, just some more storage.
>
>I bought another account just to get 4 more slots. Obviously if there was a
>(cheaper) way to buy only slots, I would have gone that route, but there
>isn't. From chatting in game and reading forums, there are quite a number of
>players who own more than one account and aren't farmers. I didn't pay $60.
>I think another copy of the game cost me $50 (CDN), so I paid a little over
>$12 per slot. Not bad.
Oh I know. Someone in Augury Rock the other day said he had 4 accounts.
I just think that selling slots would be a good way to go and would make
even more cash for Arena.net since those, like me, who wouldn't buy a
second account, would shell out for more slots on our existing account.
>BTW, for anyone who is playing GW, they rejigged a lot of skills with the
>latest update--check out the March 2 update on the official site.
I haven't noticed any real difference, but Rangers don't seem to have
been touched. At least none of the skills I actually use have been.
Every time the GW client starts downloading, i'm loading the updates
page to see what has changed.
Pity the downloads start _long_ before the updates page gets updated -
sometimes days go by.
Xocyll
the entrails of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the
signs say:
>Thusly Xocyll <Xoc...@kingston.net> Spake Unto All:
As I recall the collectors came with the glowy hands, a unique bow
(fairly useless for non rangers) and a multimedia headset, all for ~$40
more than the basic game.
Just checked a local shops listing:
* Collector's Exclusive in game features: "Divine Aura"
* Logitech Internet Chat Headset with Custom Guild Wars logos.
* 3 Months Free Voice Hosting on Speakeasts Teamspeak Voice Service.
* Teamspeak Software with Custom changes that make gameplay more in-depth
* Hardcover Guild Wars Art Book filled with more than 120 pages of dazzling full-colour art from the world of Guild Wars.
* Guild Wars Soundtrack CD with the muisc of Academy Award winner Jeremy Soule.
Maybe that bow was the pre-order bonus no collectors edition.
CoinSpin
news:mu7k02tut9abv3ija...@4ax.com...
So, just to be sure I understand this... You are willing to buy a game for
full price if you do not have a monthly fee... But you want to be able to
resell that game when you are tired of it? Do you have rose colored glasses
permanently installed on your eyes here? You have just basically eliminated
all income for the DEVELOPING company after the first sale of the game...
So you want a group of people to spend their lives creating a game that you
would find fun, then cut their own purses open and let all the cash fall out
before they even make it to the bank... If you are looking for something
for free, go check out Runescape and get an idea of what exactly you'll get
if there are no incentives for the development company to make any money...
Bare basics with no real variety, and forget about customer support.
That said, I do agree with your view of monthly fees... As a long time CoH
player, I have just avoided buying CoV completely, because I have a problem
with paying a full retail up front (again) and THEN a montly fee... Same
with WoW, I just can't seem to help pad their pockets that way. I think if
you are going to require a montly fee, make the initial game either free or
very inexpensive... This will definitely get more people in and get
hooked... Have they learned nothing from drug dealers? lol
Guild Wars seems to have a good thing working... Buy the game for full
price, play for free... Expansions? Pay full price for them and still play
for free... This model is great because then the players are directly
paying for additional content when they want it, and in this way they are
also provided with a method of rewarding good content additions or punishing
lame additions by not buying the enhancements. The developers will have to
consider the players wants and needs to make the expansions profitable. I
wish there had been a way to do this for CoH, cause they made it
progressively less fun with each nerf of my characters, and didn't seem to
care about the extreme amount of time I was having to spend doing respecs
for every one of my characters... It became obvious the devs could care
less about us player peons, and it disillusioned me to the point that I took
a break went elsewhere... And found GW, fortunately. :)
Anyhow, my rant is over... Please resume you regularly scheduled lives.
CoinSpin
CoinSpin
news:1+fLQRBUcsCEFw$H...@secker.demon.co.uk...
Yah, for a great example of dreaming up good things for brand new customers,
just look at the Star Wars Galaxies fiasco... They revamped it and totally
pissed of the entire group of players that had been supporting it since day
one... I can see where you would not want this to happen elsewhere!
CoinSpin
Sarah
> I just think that selling slots would be a good way to go and would make
> even more cash for Arena.net since those, like me, who wouldn't buy a
> second account, would shell out for more slots on our existing account.
Agreed. I'd also like a way to increase how much you can share between
characters (storage).
> I haven't noticed any real difference, but Rangers don't seem to have
> been touched. At least none of the skills I actually use have been.
I've noticed that the bad guys chase you longer now, but there's nothing
about that in the update list.
Jan Potocki
>So, just to be sure I understand this... You are willing to buy a game for
>full price if you do not have a monthly fee... But you want to be able to
>resell that game when you are tired of it? Do you have rose colored glasses
>permanently installed on your eyes here? You have just basically eliminated
>all income for the DEVELOPING company after the first sale of the game...
>So you want a group of people to spend their lives creating a game that you
>would find fun, then cut their own purses open and let all the cash fall out
>before they even make it to the bank... If you are looking for something
>for free, go check out Runescape and get an idea of what exactly you'll get
>if there are no incentives for the development company to make any money...
>Bare basics with no real variety, and forget about customer support.
Do YOU know what are you talking about here?? I mean what's this
crap? Are you developer mother or something? I can't see what's your
point here?
I don't know how it works there in US but here in Sweden is perfectly
OK to resell games. Actually when I am looking at Amazon.com - there
is second hand games too. So WHAT IS YOUR POINT HERE!
OK it IS little strange to sell online game (I got little carried away
here) but it can be done with two HONEST parts in deal.
The Enigmatic One
says...
>I hope that all you with all the money in the world to spend on 100%
>theft got the point now ;-)
>
>Let the FREE source be with you all!
Huh.
Well you're a major fucktard, aren't ya?
-Tim
The Enigmatic One
>So, just to be sure I understand this... You are willing to buy a game for
>full price if you do not have a monthly fee... But you want to be able to
>resell that game when you are tired of it? Do you have rose colored glasses
>permanently installed on your eyes here? You have just basically eliminated
>all income for the DEVELOPING company after the first sale of the game..
And you're an even bigger fucktard.
What the fuck makes games so god damned special that they aren't subject to
normal rules of being able to buy and sell property just like anything else.
But I'm probably wrong here. You never buy cars used, or sell yours, instead
throwing your car away when you don't want it anymore, right?
You protest garage sales, because those worthless thieves are depriving the
designers of those baby clothes their rightly-earned income.
I've got you pegged, right?
-Tim
CoinSpin
Actually, I DO know exactly what I was saying... Related to a developer?
lol! Not even... My concern is with getting quality for my money, and in
this unique situation of online game reselling, quality would suffer. The
point was that if you have a game that you pay full price for up front, then
have no monthly fees for, any "reselling" of the game after that initial
sale does not benefit the developers ONE SINGLE BIT. Now, if you count on
the good nature of humanity and expect some sort of financial gain to be
passed along down the line of reselling to the author of the software, you
are truly naive. Basically, the developers get nothing for a game that can
pass hands as many times as possible, and you potentially get a tremendous
amount of people playing from that original sale, killing profit... If
there is no financial gain in developing massively complex and QUALITY
online games, then we start getting half-assed crap, or nothing at all...
Now granted that it's not that simple, there are account keys and other
issues that make it more difficult, but basically the reselling idea would
ONLY work in a WoW or similar monthly pay scheme, since there would still be
some revenue coming to the company that has made a massive investment of
time and resources to bring the game to you. Reselling a "play free" game
would be the ultimate kiss of death... I know in an "HONEST" world it would
be fine, but in the real world...
Make more sense now?
CoinSpin
CoinSpin
"The Enigmatic One" <t...@again.spammers> wrote in message
news:A5adnQt30-_...@giganews.com...
At least use analogies that make sense. When you buy a used car, are you
getting a ride that is being continually re-engineered, revamped, repainted,
garaged, maintained and fueled by someone else? NO. Or when youbuy those
secondhand baby clothes, are those threads being custom tailored to match
the style of the day? NO. Those are a one time thing, let the buyer
beware, sale is "as is" here. But gee, when you buy an online game you have
an entire team of people whos livelihoods depend on continually keeping that
game working well, to keep their customers happy. If they can't draw a
paycheck from that work because it's being resold over and over, you really
think they'll stick around and keep doing it for free? Wake up, man.
BTW... Fucktard? Good one, I like it!
Highlandish
ooh, new beasties in the prophets path to kill, i'm going in
--
Remove the _CURSEING to reply to me
If you drink, don't park; accidents cause people.
Nostromo
-0500, Anno Domini:
Just like this argument of yours...?
>Now granted that it's not that simple, there are account keys and other
>issues that make it more difficult, but basically the reselling idea would
>ONLY work in a WoW or similar monthly pay scheme, since there would still be
>some revenue coming to the company that has made a massive investment of
>time and resources to bring the game to you. Reselling a "play free" game
>would be the ultimate kiss of death... I know in an "HONEST" world it would
>be fine, but in the real world...
>
>Make more sense now?
Yes, that you're completely mistaken & off the garden path. The key thing
you've forgotten in this tirade is that reselling a pay-only-once online
game is no different to the profit/loss on reselling an offline game. That
added to the fact that a very small percentage of players will buy & play
2nd hand proves that any profit for the developer is mostly from new sales &
is hardly ever impacted from reselling. If the game is good enough, ppl will
buy new every time & hang onto it for a long time; if the game is not an
absolute must have then cheapskates will wait 1-6 mths for it to hit bargain
bins (unlikely with online games until after a year or more - assuming they
are good games). And then there's the demographic that will only buy
2nd-hand, but thankfully for the devs, those scrooges are far & few between.
Therefore, your entire argument is a fabrication of 'logic' in your own
mind, as the circumstances you propose cannot nor ever will arise in a real
economic model. The more desirable a game, the more likely it is to be
bought new & in great numbers, the less likely to be impacted by 2nd-hand
sales. At the end of the day, only 1 owner can possess an online game that
requires a key. OTOH, take an average-to-craptacular game like Anarchy
Online: I tried the free demo/game & now they keep sending me the 'free'
expansions for rock bottom price (or totally free for 12 mths) & I'm not
biting. Why? Because the game is not that good imo. If it were I likely
would've paid premium when it was at its peak. And I'm probably typical of
99%+ of the player base.
Look forward to your next specious argument in reply. ;-p
Mean_Chlorine
>What the fuck makes games so god damned special that they aren't subject to
>normal rules of being able to buy and sell property just like anything else.
Speaking of fucktard... You're perfectly allowed to resell your MMORPG
CD with software. What most MMORPGs don't allow is re-selling of
accounts. The account and it's management is a _service_, unlike the
CD and the software but much like a bank account, and is not yours to
sell.
Jan Potocki
>would be the ultimate kiss of death... I know in an "HONEST" world it would
>be fine, but in the real world...
>
>Make more sense now?
>
>CoinSpin
>
Ok I got you piont and agree largly with it. As I said I got carried
away with reselling. It don't work in praxis on online games. My fault
.-)
Jan Potocki
That is why I was mistaken talking of reselling online games. It don't
work in praxis since you never know if i sell you clean account.
Jan Potocki
You like word fuck? So fuck off in small jumps man! Post in abuse
newsgroups if your arguments are based on fucking. Or better take that
joystick of yours and put it in your arse and then fuck off in big
jumps.
Briarroot
>
> What the fuck makes games so god damned special that they aren't subject to
> normal rules of being able to buy and sell property just like anything else.
Good question. Have you ever really *read* the EULA when you
installed a game?
> But I'm probably wrong here. You never buy cars used, or sell yours, instead
> throwing your car away when you don't want it anymore, right?
Have you ever heard of leased vehicles. The 'owner' of the lease
can't sell the car *or* the lease.
> You protest garage sales, because those worthless thieves are depriving the
> designers of those baby clothes their rightly-earned income.
Actually, I protest garage sales because I think pink flamingos should
be humanely euthanized and not sold into slavery.
> I've got you pegged, right?
I don't know. It doesn't look like you've *anything* pegged.
CoinSpin
Good points all around... I was speaking in mostly generalities anyhow,
since in the real world situation there are safeguards against game
reselling (account keys, for instance). And I was assuming the worst-case
scenario where it's a great game and there is a "loophole" where it could
pass hands and people play for free... My main argument got lost somewhere
along the line here, which was that the reselling idea would be fine in a
pay per month scenario, but in a pay up front and play for free situation,
the devs are banking on every single retail purchase of their game... Every
one that they lose hurts their bottom line, and if it hurts too bad they
will scrap it and if we're lucky they'll try to switch to pay per month
model instead. It's a gamble on their part and if it's not paying off, they
will fold and move on.
Consider this: A game like Guild Wars exists and flourishes in a large part
due to word of mouth recommendations. That means that somebody is hearing
about how great it is and decides to go out and buy the game and joins the
community. This means that there is some continuing revenue for the
company, which will help justify the time and expense of maintaining,
tweaking, and improving the game continuously. But if those people that are
hearing about it can go pick up a used copy cheaper, that's no money for the
company... It's an economic model where they are relying on the continued
sales to help justify their initial investment, and the reselling would hurt
that bottom line. I agree with you completely that it would not be much of
a dent, but it's still a dent for a group that is trying to do something a
bit different than the standard "give me money every month suckers"
approach. I for one don't want to see that approach die, I'm rather fond of
not having to pay monthly for GW since I'm already a CoH addict... heh
CoinSpin
Nostromo
-0500, Anno Domini:
>Good points all around... I was speaking in mostly generalities anyhow,
>since in the real world situation there are safeguards against game
>reselling (account keys, for instance). And I was assuming the worst-case
>scenario where it's a great game and there is a "loophole" where it could
>pass hands and people play for free... My main argument got lost somewhere
>along the line here, which was that the reselling idea would be fine in a
>pay per month scenario, but in a pay up front and play for free situation,
>the devs are banking on every single retail purchase of their game... Every
>one that they lose hurts their bottom line, and if it hurts too bad they
>will scrap it and if we're lucky they'll try to switch to pay per month
>model instead. It's a gamble on their part and if it's not paying off, they
>will fold and move on.
Don't agree - ppl who buy 2nd-hand would probably never have bought new
anyway in most cases. And you've already identified that they have the
_option_ of switching to a monthly pay model & probably losing a significant
percentage of their player base, but we'd have to leave that one to their
bean counters as anything else would be pure speculation on our part.
>Consider this: A game like Guild Wars exists and flourishes in a large part
>due to word of mouth recommendations. That means that somebody is hearing
>about how great it is and decides to go out and buy the game and joins the
>community. This means that there is some continuing revenue for the
>company, which will help justify the time and expense of maintaining,
>tweaking, and improving the game continuously. But if those people that are
>hearing about it can go pick up a used copy cheaper, that's no money for the
>company... It's an economic model where they are relying on the continued
Not so again - word of mouth is perhaps the most powerful medium for a game
like this. And a happy camper who bought used has a voice just as loud as
one who bought new, perhaps louder, as he got the same great game, only
cheaper. His voice gets more friends/acquaintances to join the club. So,
we've come full circle yourself - 2nd-hand may help new sales more than new
sales do! :)
>sales to help justify their initial investment, and the reselling would hurt
>that bottom line. I agree with you completely that it would not be much of
>a dent, but it's still a dent for a group that is trying to do something a
>bit different than the standard "give me money every month suckers"
>approach. I for one don't want to see that approach die, I'm rather fond of
>not having to pay monthly for GW since I'm already a CoH addict... heh
Likewise! I think the whole trust issue with reselling online keys to
strangers will keep the dent way down to be a real issue for ArenaNet, but I
could be wrong. Time will tell, but I would suggest that ongoing income &
cash flow could be a much larger issue, though with $30-40mill in gross
revenue so far, I would hope they haven't squandered it all in just 1 year!
Nostromo
2006 10:34:12 +0100, Anno Domini:
But why would anyone do that, especially given most mmorpgs seem to have 1
account per cd key??? You pay 50% for a box, manual & CD & then you have to
pay full price (usually) again to buy the game online + monthly fees? Makes
no sense.
CoinSpin
> Thus spake "CoinSpin" <coin^spam^sp...@hotmail.com>, Mon, 6 Mar 2006
> 11:35:26
> -0500, Anno Domini:
>
> game
> like this. And a happy camper who bought used has a voice just as loud as
> one who bought new, perhaps louder, as he got the same great game, only
> cheaper. His voice gets more friends/acquaintances to join the club. So,
> we've come full circle yourself - 2nd-hand may help new sales more than
> new
> sales do! :)
>
Damn you're good! Ok, I give up! lol
CoinSpin
Xocyll
entrails of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs
say:
>Consider this: A game like Guild Wars exists and flourishes in a large part
>due to word of mouth recommendations. That means that somebody is hearing
>about how great it is and decides to go out and buy the game and joins the
>community. This means that there is some continuing revenue for the
>company, which will help justify the time and expense of maintaining,
>tweaking, and improving the game continuously. But if those people that are
>hearing about it can go pick up a used copy cheaper, that's no money for the
>company... It's an economic model where they are relying on the continued
>sales to help justify their initial investment, and the reselling would hurt
>that bottom line. I agree with you completely that it would not be much of
>a dent, but it's still a dent for a group that is trying to do something a
>bit different than the standard "give me money every month suckers"
>approach. I for one don't want to see that approach die, I'm rather fond of
>not having to pay monthly for GW since I'm already a CoH addict... heh
The point you seem to be missing is that it's not costing the company
any more either.
One prepaid game, no fee doesn't care exactly _WHO_ is playing that
account.
There may be an assumption that people will get bored and stop playing
and that new people attracted will buy new copies but there's no way to
force it.
Some people will remain playing for years on that pay once model, so
there's no real difference between one of those players and a new player
on a used copy.
On the other hand, Nossie's original point of free game-pay monthly vs
full price game - no monthly payments for 6 months would work and would
render the used game sales irrelevant since the person with a 6month
account would still have to pay monthly once that 6 months was up.
Mean_Chlorine
>>Speaking of fucktard... You're perfectly allowed to resell your MMORPG
>>CD with software. What most MMORPGs don't allow is re-selling of
>>accounts. The account and it's management is a _service_, unlike the
>>CD and the software but much like a bank account, and is not yours to
>>sell.
>
>But why would anyone do that, especially given most mmorpgs seem to have 1
>account per cd key??? You pay 50% for a box, manual & CD & then you have to
>pay full price (usually) again to buy the game online + monthly fees? Makes
>no sense.
True, but _making sense_ is a completely different issue than _being
illegal_.
It is legal to sell your CD (regardless, and I really want to state
this, regardless what it says in the EULA), but the company owning the
MMORPG is under no obligation to let you switch ownership of the
account - and most (all?) don't. Presumably both because they want to
sell more copies, and avoid having to hire staff to deal with account
transfers.
Nostromo
Fair enough, letter of the law & all that. By the same token, can the mmorpg
companies *really* prevent you from selling your account (assuming you'd
sell a throwaway hotmail/yahoo address with it & pass on the purchase
receipt) - is the law on our side as far as ownership goes there? I mean,
they certainly can't stop you from playing the game on your mate's PC, so
what would be the diff really? I'm assuming you have some legal recourse -
imagine if you bought the boxed game in a store & came home to install it &
the account creation got rejected you because you were in the wrong timezone
or your age was unacceptable or some such crap? You can at least take it
back if it's new I guess :-/.
Nostromo
-0500, Anno Domini:
ROFL - nah, just a born-again arguer :) Wait till you see me full-throttle
in troll-mode! >8^D
Marcel Beaudoin
news:qfmp02hunsvmiupi1...@4ax.com:
> Fair enough, letter of the law & all that. By the same token, can the
> mmorpg companies *really* prevent you from selling your account
> (assuming you'd sell a throwaway hotmail/yahoo address with it & pass
> on the purchase receipt) - is the law on our side as far as ownership
> goes there?
This is just rambling, but are there any other places that allow you to
sell/transfer an account to another person? I can't think of any ofhand. (I
am thinking of things like gyms, Costco, etc)
--
Marcel
http://mudbunny.blogspot.com/
Nostromo
GMT, Anno Domini:
Yeah, I know, but it's still highway robbery. If you pay for X months of
service you should get some compensation for getting out of jail early,
maybe not full value, but at least something. With a monthly mmorpg account,
what diff could it possibly make to the scumbags if you want to sell/give it
to someone - they still have to pay the ongoing sub fee - they just get some
goodies to start with & don't have to pay for the initial game again. Why
should they anyway? The box or initial setup admin fees have been paid
already - forcing someone to start from scratch instead is just pure
profiteering, considering most account 'valuables' from the chars could
easily be transferred to a new account/chars anyway. Thoughts ppl? What IS
the legal & ethical justification for companies not allowing services to be
transferred, really?
Marcel Beaudoin
news:q6or0294u0p4pdtpp...@4ax.com:
> Thus spake Marcel Beaudoin <marcel....@gmail.com>, 7 Mar 2006
> 18:26:31 GMT, Anno Domini:
>
>>Nostromo <nost...@spamfree.net.au> wrote in
>>news:qfmp02hunsvmiupi1...@4ax.com:
>>
>>> Fair enough, letter of the law & all that. By the same token, can
>>> the mmorpg companies *really* prevent you from selling your account
>>> (assuming you'd sell a throwaway hotmail/yahoo address with it &
>>> pass on the purchase receipt) - is the law on our side as far as
>>> ownership goes there?
>>
>>This is just rambling, but are there any other places that allow you
>>to sell/transfer an account to another person? I can't think of any
>>ofhand. (I am thinking of things like gyms, Costco, etc)
>
> Yeah, I know, but it's still highway robbery. If you pay for X months
> of service you should get some compensation for getting out of jail
> early, maybe not full value, but at least something.
Only anecdotal, and not trying to use this to say that because X does it,
it is OK for Y to do it, but when I tried to cancel my Gym membership a
couple of months early, I was told that it would be cheaper to just let it
expire rather than pay the cancellation fee.
> What IS the
> legal & ethical justification for companies not allowing services to
> be transferred, really?
The only thing that comes into my mind is the possibility of someone's
account getting hacked and then transferred "to a friend". I don't know how
common or prevalent it would be, but it is what I can think of.
--
Marcel
http://mudbunny.blogspot.com/
Xocyll
entrails of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs
say:
>"Xocyll" <Xoc...@kingston.net> wrote in message
>news:hr9m021c9nl3kr1k3...@4ax.com...
>
>> I just think that selling slots would be a good way to go and would make
>> even more cash for Arena.net since those, like me, who wouldn't buy a
>> second account, would shell out for more slots on our existing account.
>
>Agreed. I'd also like a way to increase how much you can share between
>characters (storage).
Oh hell yes, one stash for four characters just isn't enough (unless one
or more of the characters are being used as mules.)
>> I haven't noticed any real difference, but Rangers don't seem to have
>> been touched. At least none of the skills I actually use have been.
>
>I've noticed that the bad guys chase you longer now, but there's nothing
>about that in the update list.
This seems to be very dependant on the bad guys - some things never seem
to give up while other quit relatively quickly.
Some of the AI changes seem to be buggy.
The run from AOE DoT damage (like firestorm) also seems to kick in when
you hit things with ignite arrows, which has not DoT effect.
It however does NOT kick in on things like Lava, and the henchmen will
quite happily stand in it until they die.
Healer henchies also have a nasty tendency to run off to raise a party
member - even if they are a fair distance away from the "party" and
surrounded by enemies.
I thought this was just Mhenlo, but Alesia did it in the northern
shiverpeaks yesterday - I raised her to heal me as I took down the
baddies, and instead she ran off to try and raise another hench who was
being stood on by 4 summit chopper guys. *SPLAT*
The new Lemming-AI is not an improvement.
Wonder if it's a subtle method of forcing more teaming with players?
Xocyll
of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:
<snip>
> Thoughts ppl? What IS
>the legal & ethical justification for companies not allowing services to be
>transferred, really?
Well not in a gaming sense exactly, but any entity has the right to
choose WHO it's going to provide services for.
Allowing transfers means they no longer have that choice.
Do you force a re-registration which then has the company editing their
database to remove the old and add the new?
This may not be something the database was ever expected to handle so it
might not be easy.
If you don't force re-registration than banned people can regain access
just by buying someone else's copy.
Then there's the whole stolen account issue - if you allow it to be
transferred than there is no possible way the owner can get it back.
If the personal data is fixed than the thief can't change it, and the
original owner can get the password e-mailed to him to regain access to
his (probably plundered) character(s).
It's a real can of worms, and I don't blame most companies from wanting
to have no part in it.
Sheldon England
>
> What some brave developer should *really* do is provide one of 2 options for
> a mmorpg:
>
> 1. buy the game up front & get 6 mths free (or about 50% more time than by
> paying the monthly fees)
> 2. Pay nothing up front, but pay the full monthly premium each month
>
> What would everyone most likely subscribe to?
3. Pay an EXTRA $10/month to play on a restricted snert-free server
where all players are GUARANTEED to be older than 25, have IQs of at
least 100, and do not even know how to type in SMS or 733t.
- Sheldon
Nostromo
Anno Domini:
>Nostromo <nost...@spamfree.net.au> looked up from reading the entrails
>of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:
>
><snip>
>> Thoughts ppl? What IS
>>the legal & ethical justification for companies not allowing services to be
>>transferred, really?
>
>Well not in a gaming sense exactly, but any entity has the right to
>choose WHO it's going to provide services for.
>Allowing transfers means they no longer have that choice.
>
>Do you force a re-registration which then has the company editing their
>database to remove the old and add the new?
>This may not be something the database was ever expected to handle so it
>might not be easy.
>
>If you don't force re-registration than banned people can regain access
>just by buying someone else's copy.
>
>Then there's the whole stolen account issue - if you allow it to be
>transferred than there is no possible way the owner can get it back.
>If the personal data is fixed than the thief can't change it, and the
>original owner can get the password e-mailed to him to regain access to
>his (probably plundered) character(s).
>
>It's a real can of worms, and I don't blame most companies from wanting
>to have no part in it.
>
>Xocyll
Yeah, I can see the wisdom & commercial reasoning in all of it, but I just
wish there was a more customer-service-centric solution *sigh*.
Xocyll
entrails of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs
say:
>Nostromo wrote:
But anyone with an IQ of at least 100 would be able to type in SMS/leet.
They may not want to, but they would know how.
I just wish Guild Wars had some kind of role playing limitation on
names.
I am so sick of characters called "I shoot you dead" or "I heal you
gud".
Oh well, I guess retarded names like that are a good indicator for
people to avoid.
Mean_Chlorine
>I just wish Guild Wars had some kind of role playing limitation on
>names.
>I am so sick of characters called "I shoot you dead" or "I heal you
>gud".
I see that as them role-playing someone with really low educashun.
Possibly a barbarian shaman who've just wandered in off the steppe and
direct-translated his native name Argash Ar Hurghuk into "I heal you
gud". Just imagine that, and you'll see how things start to make
sense.
Same with obnoxious gung-ho warriors with bad attitude, marginal
reading/writing skills and short attention span - IMO that's probably
pretty accurate role playing right there.
Sheldon England
>
> Sheldon England wrote:
>
> >3. Pay an EXTRA $10/month to play on a restricted snert-free server
> >where all players are GUARANTEED to be older than 25, have IQs of at
> >least 100, and do not even know how to type in SMS or 733t.
>
> But anyone with an IQ of at least 100 would be able to type in SMS/leet.
> They may not want to, but they would know how.
Heh. Point.
> I just wish Guild Wars had some kind of role playing limitation
> on names. I am so sick of characters called "I shoot you dead"
> or "I heal you gud".
>
> Oh well, I guess retarded names like that are a good indicator for
> people to avoid.
I'm not sure which is worse -- descriptive names or too many
apostrophes. A lot of games I've played suffer from the latter. IMO "I
heal you gud" is better than "Dave's Pocket Healer."
- S'hel'don of Apos'tropho'sium ;)
Xocyll
the entrails of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the
signs say:
>Thusly Xocyll <Xoc...@kingston.net> Spake Unto All:
>
>>I just wish Guild Wars had some kind of role playing limitation on
>>names.
>>I am so sick of characters called "I shoot you dead" or "I heal you
>>gud".
>
>I see that as them role-playing someone with really low educashun.
>Possibly a barbarian shaman who've just wandered in off the steppe and
>direct-translated his native name Argash Ar Hurghuk into "I heal you
>gud". Just imagine that, and you'll see how things start to make
>sense.
I see it more as the teenage deathmatch cool dude type name.
Which might actually fit in the straight pvp sense but doesn't belong in
the roleplaying side.
>Same with obnoxious gung-ho warriors with bad attitude, marginal
>reading/writing skills and short attention span - IMO that's probably
>pretty accurate role playing right there.
But does it really count as role playing when they're like that in real
life anyway?
Nostromo
Anno Domini:
>Mean_Chlorine <mike_no...@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk> looked up from reading
>the entrails of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the
>signs say:
>
>>Thusly Xocyll <Xoc...@kingston.net> Spake Unto All:
>>
>>>I just wish Guild Wars had some kind of role playing limitation on
>>>names.
>>>I am so sick of characters called "I shoot you dead" or "I heal you
>>>gud".
>>
>>I see that as them role-playing someone with really low educashun.
>>Possibly a barbarian shaman who've just wandered in off the steppe and
>>direct-translated his native name Argash Ar Hurghuk into "I heal you
>>gud". Just imagine that, and you'll see how things start to make
>>sense.
>
>I see it more as the teenage deathmatch cool dude type name.
>Which might actually fit in the straight pvp sense but doesn't belong in
>the roleplaying side.
>
>>Same with obnoxious gung-ho warriors with bad attitude, marginal
>>reading/writing skills and short attention span - IMO that's probably
>>pretty accurate role playing right there.
>
>But does it really count as role playing when they're like that in real
>life anyway?
LOL! Hey, my GW spark has been re-kindled again - had a ball last night
playing in a small group. Did Aurora & got myself to Riverside solo. Now I
just gotta clean up a couple missions from the Wilds & get to Maguuma to see
what's there, then it's off to Sanctum & the desert - woo hoo! :)
What GW really needs is some more control over the henchies for soloing,
even to the point of general orders like Fallout did. It would also be cool
to have a few choices of 'loadout' for each henchie e.g. monk healer, or
smiter, or protector; necro minionmaster or blood mage, etc. That & it could
use some better questing/rping for soloists & it would be unbeatable! Hang
on, it's unbeatable now!
Btw X - picked up a copy of Severance:BoD & player through 1st level as the
knight the other night - cool game. Great combat, just a shame about the
storyline/roleplay AND console elements. If it was more like Gothic 2 in
that regard it would've been a winner. Did it get good reviews or sales?
Mean_Chlorine
>I see it more as the teenage deathmatch cool dude type name.
>Which might actually fit in the straight pvp sense but doesn't belong in
>the roleplaying side.
Suspend your disbelief.
>>Same with obnoxious gung-ho warriors with bad attitude, marginal
>>reading/writing skills and short attention span - IMO that's probably
>>pretty accurate role playing right there.
>
>But does it really count as role playing when they're like that in real
>life anyway?
How do you tell the difference between a really good role-player
role-playing an obnoxious character, and someone who's just acting his
obnoxious self? And does it really matter for your role-playing which
is which?
Yeah, yeah, I know - yes, they're really like that in the meatworld.
No, they're not role-playing. Yes, they really think "Legolas
Satansarmy" is a cool name. Still, imagining them as role-playing
helps me stomach the warrior who's so convinced of his own uberness
that he uses sprint to outrun my healer to get to the enemy first,
presumably so noone else kills them before him, gets killed, then
spams "u SUKC! rEZ ME U N00B!!!!".
Xocyll
entrails of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs
say:
>Xocyll wrote:
I'd put them equally low along with "Xxx Healer Xxx" and the like.
"Dave's Pocket Healer." could be a clever name for a tailor. :)
> - S'hel'don of Apos'tropho'sium ;)
Haven't actually seen to many apostrophied names.
Even then, since various languages do use them they're far more legit
than the above metagaming names.
Xocyll
the entrails of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the
signs say:
>Thusly Xocyll <Xoc...@kingston.net> Spake Unto All:
>
>>I see it more as the teenage deathmatch cool dude type name.
>>Which might actually fit in the straight pvp sense but doesn't belong in
>>the roleplaying side.
>
>Suspend your disbelief.
I'm afraid I don't have a strong enough cable.
>>>Same with obnoxious gung-ho warriors with bad attitude, marginal
>>>reading/writing skills and short attention span - IMO that's probably
>>>pretty accurate role playing right there.
>>
>>But does it really count as role playing when they're like that in real
>>life anyway?
>
>How do you tell the difference between a really good role-player
>role-playing an obnoxious character, and someone who's just acting his
>obnoxious self? And does it really matter for your role-playing which
>is which?
Phoneticisms.
>Yeah, yeah, I know - yes, they're really like that in the meatworld.
>No, they're not role-playing. Yes, they really think "Legolas
>Satansarmy" is a cool name. Still, imagining them as role-playing
>helps me stomach the warrior who's so convinced of his own uberness
>that he uses sprint to outrun my healer to get to the enemy first,
>presumably so noone else kills them before him, gets killed, then
>spams "u SUKC! rEZ ME U N00B!!!!".
Were I the healer in question that would be met with "I'm sorry, I don't
speak asshole, could you repeat that in English?"
David Alex Lamb
Nostromo <nost...@spamfree.net.au> wrote:
>Thus spake Marcel Beaudoin <marcel....@gmail.com>, 7 Mar 2006 18:26:31
>GMT, Anno Domini:
>>sell/transfer an account to another person? I can't think of any ofhand. (I
>>am thinking of things like gyms, Costco, etc)
>
>Yeah, I know, but it's still highway robbery. If you pay for X months of
>service you should get some compensation for getting out of jail early,
You might want to, but there are plenty of industires besides MMORPGs that
won't let you. I paid for a year of kickboxing lessons for my daughter in
advance; her old music teacher asked for postdated checks for the 'year' (10
months) in advance, and would have had legal recourse if we'd tried to cancel
them. My gym membership was nontransferrable, paid in advance.
Seems like you want a lot more than is usually available.
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)
Xocyll
With this I'd heartily agree, especially since they've changed the AI
for the henchies lately (or at least the healers).
The number of times I've rezzed Alesia, expecting her to heal me while I
fight the baddies standing on the corpses of the rest of the party only
to have her run off to try and rez one of them and getting killed in
seconds.
It's *BAD* when you have to raise the healer last so she won't do
something stupid and get even more DP.
>Btw X - picked up a copy of Severance:BoD & player through 1st level as the
>knight the other night - cool game. Great combat, just a shame about the
>storyline/roleplay AND console elements. If it was more like Gothic 2 in
>that regard it would've been a winner. Did it get good reviews or sales?
I have no idea how well it sold, but it's an ok game.
Took me quite a while to get used to the controls (sidestep while
targeting an enemy, but turn to side when not.)
Some of the weapons are a bit fucked up too and available in places they
just aren't needed at all.
One bit of advice since you're playing the knight, keep the elf sword
for a good long while.
It's fast and the special move is relatively easy to do and hits pretty
hard.
This is a game you MUST use the special moves (character or weapon),
since just hitting the critters takes far too long and you'll lose too
much health.
The big problem with the special moves is they are fairly easily
disrupted so timing is essential, as is learning the enemy attack
patterns so you know when to start the move.
It's quite consolish, but I end up installing it every once in a while
since unlike most games it's got *MASSIVE* gibs, and you can literally
slice the enemy into tiny chunks.
Now if only some creative type would mod it to replace various critters
with spammers.
The Knight and the Amazon are the two best/easiest to play.
The dwarf can't dodge worth shit with those tiny legs, and the
barbarian's weapons are all 2handers and slow.
Per Abrahamsen
server based games, the developers need to get both the initial
development and the running cost of the servers financed somehow.
Actually, from a moral point of view, I would probably prefer a
totally free client, and a pure subscription based payment scheme. I
believe The _Saga of Ryzom_ works like that.
However, from a practical point of view I have a problem with all the
subscription based payment models, and that is that I play in very
irregular intervals. I often leave the game for many months. And I
don't know that in advance. So for me, the only alternative to a
one-time fee would be something like a pay-per-hour-played scheme.
Not good for those who use the game as a chatroom though.
I don't see why the same game couln't offer the players a choice of
which payment model they prefer.
The Enigmatic One
says...
>At least use analogies that make sense. When you buy a used car, are you
>getting a ride that is being continually re-engineered, revamped, repainted,
>garaged, maintained and fueled by someone else? NO. Or when youbuy those
>secondhand baby clothes, are those threads being custom tailored to match
>the style of the day? NO. Those are a one time thing, let the buyer
>beware, sale is "as is" here. But gee, when you buy an online game you have
>an entire team of people whos livelihoods depend on continually keeping that
>game working well, to keep their customers happy. If they can't draw a
>paycheck from that work because it's being resold over and over, you really
>think they'll stick around and keep doing it for free? Wake up, man.
Well, we're talking past each other a bit here.
You initial claim seemed to go beyond the OP's argument about not wanting to
pay a monthly fee--your argument read that any and all developers deserve to
have games bought and sold only once--as new retail. It wouldn't make you the
first person to make such an (assinine) argument.
The issue of "membership" in terms of online content is somewhat
different...and tricky, really. If a company sells a game for $50 new and
offers some online content for free, is that game no longer ever eligible to be
resold? Does online content trump basic common law? Even if the entire
content of the game is online, we're still talking about a basic item that you
bought and, conceivably, can sell. EULA's would still seem to not be worth the
paper they're (not) printed on in regards to trying to argue otherwise. It
strikes me that I can't really think of an online-content game that's being
actively developed with new content that isn't somehow set up to keep income
flowing--montly fees for the most part, and in the case of Guild Wars
incremental expansions that contain the bulk of any new stuff.
-Tim
The Enigmatic One
mike_no...@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk says...
>
>
>Thusly t...@again.spammers (The Enigmatic One) Spake Unto All:
>
>>What the fuck makes games so god damned special that they aren't subject to
>>normal rules of being able to buy and sell property just like anything else.
>
>CD with software. What most MMORPGs don't allow is re-selling of
>accounts. The account and it's management is a _service_, unlike the
>CD and the software but much like a bank account, and is not yours to
>sell.
And is MMORPG a legally defined term?
Does a game have to charge a montly fee to have such a situation (not
resellable) be the case?
What about something like Guild Wars? Or Diablo 2?
Given your argument, what's to stop a company from defining their basic
single-player game as an account and service, and thus not resellable.
(Actually, this is a growingly common situation.) What makes these companies
so special that basic common law on the sale and resale of goods not apply?
-Tim
The Enigmatic One
>
>
>The Enigmatic One wrote:
>>
>> What the fuck makes games so god damned special that they aren't subject to
>> normal rules of being able to buy and sell property just like anything else.
>
>installed a game?
Sometimes, just for a laugh.
They generally mean jack shit in terms of actually being applicable, however.
-Tim
The Enigmatic One
says...
>You like word fuck? So fuck off in small jumps man! Post in abuse
>newsgroups if your arguments are based on fucking. Or better take that
>joystick of yours and put it in your arse and then fuck off in big
>jumps.
You're an idiot who really doesn't comprehend what words mean. (I offer your
laughable definition of "theft" here as example.)
Fuck works just fine to make my point. Anything less direct would be wasted.
-Tim
Mean_Chlorine
>And is MMORPG a legally defined term?
I have no idea.
>Does a game have to charge a montly fee to have such a situation (not
>resellable) be the case?
Uh... The game, as in "the CD and software", IS resellable. It may say
otherwise in the EULA, but in most places EULAs still hold all the
legal power of a readme.txt.
>What about something like Guild Wars? Or Diablo 2?
You don't get it - the account is on a server owned by the company,
like an account in a bank. You don't own the account, just like you
don't own a bank account. You can't resell your account, because it's
not yours to sell.
>Given your argument, what's to stop a company from defining their basic
>single-player game as an account and service, and thus not resellable.
The CD and software is yours. Your computer is yours. It's yours to
sell, delete, backup, burn or do whatever you wish with, as long as
you don't violate breaching copyright/broadcasting laws. This goes for
single-player games and mmorpgs both.
That the MMORPG wont function without such an account is irrelevant.
This isn't unique to mmorpg accounts, it's much the same everywhere
you pay for a personal service, e.g. gym membership cards (you're free
to sell the card, but there's no guarantee the gym will let the new
holder of the card train there), or airplane tickets (you're free to
sell the ticket you've bought, but the airline wont let anyone but you
board the plane with that ticket).
>(Actually, this is a growingly common situation.) What makes these companies
>so special that basic common law on the sale and resale of goods not apply?
They're not. The thing is that you're mixing up what's yours to sell,
and what's not. The CD and software is yours; the account isn't.
David Alex Lamb
Are you sure what parts are enforceable and what parts aren't?
David Alex Lamb
The Enigmatic One <t...@again.spammers> wrote:
>single-player game as an account and service, and thus not resellable.
>(Actually, this is a growingly common situation.) What makes these companies
>so special that basic common law on the sale and resale of goods not apply?
The cynic in me says there's no reason not to expect a company to play with
legal terminology to its best advantage. Years ago computer companies decided
selling you a computer program *is* a 'service' -- so they don't have to offer
a product warranty, and aren't subject to normal liability laws.
Mean_Chlorine
>legal terminology to its best advantage. Years ago computer companies decided
>selling you a computer program *is* a 'service' -- so they don't have to offer
>a product warranty, and aren't subject to normal liability laws.
Fortunately computer companies don't get to write their own laws. Not
quite, and not just yet. Although one do sometimes get that
impression.
David Alex Lamb
Isn't it still true that software isn't subject to product liability?
Jan Potocki
>
>You're an idiot who really doesn't comprehend what words mean. (I offer your
>laughable definition of "theft" here as example.)
>
>Fuck works just fine to make my point. Anything less direct would be wasted.
>
>
> -Tim
"fuckard" means fuckin retard. I don't see point here, just a plain
abuse. But I made my point too, didn't I?
How many languages you speak Tim? "Bad" english but english is my
fifth. As I see some 64- 65 pple in this thread understood perfectly
what I meant withword theft (my first choice was even worse -
robbery).
So to make my point again man FUCK OFF! And go and look in dictionary
what netiquette means (possible misspeling from my side so fuck off
again. You see I am learning fast make my points YOUR way).
-Jan
Fred Liken
"Per Abrahamsen" <abr...@dina.kvl.dk> wrote in message
news:rj4q26m...@sheridan.dina.kvl.dk...
The problem is that with the pay-per-hour-played scheme is that those hours
are going to predominantly be peak hours. The servers have to be sized to
handle peak hours whether they sit idle the other 20 hours a day. So,
there's no real way to reduce the cost for the users because the hardware
still has to be sized and paid for, so the cost per hour would be rather
large, unless it was restricted to off peak, etc.
Per Abrahamsen
> "Per Abrahamsen" <abr...@dina.kvl.dk> wrote in message
> news:rj4q26m...@sheridan.dina.kvl.dk...
>>I have no moral preference for any of the payment models for the
>> server based games, the developers need to get both the initial
>> development and the running cost of the servers financed somehow.
>> Actually, from a moral point of view, I would probably prefer a
>> totally free client, and a pure subscription based payment scheme. I
>> believe The _Saga of Ryzom_ works like that.
>>
>> However, from a practical point of view I have a problem with all the
>> subscription based payment models, and that is that I play in very
>> irregular intervals. I often leave the game for many months. And I
>> don't know that in advance. So for me, the only alternative to a
>> one-time fee would be something like a pay-per-hour-played scheme.
>> Not good for those who use the game as a chatroom though.
>>
>> I don't see why the same game couln't offer the players a choice of
>> which payment model they prefer.
>
> The problem is that with the pay-per-hour-played scheme is that those hours
> are going to predominantly be peak hours.
Then "pay-per-day". Doesn't Matrix Online has something like that?
Fred Liken
> "Fred Liken" <noth...@toocoolforschool.com> writes:
>
>>> I don't see why the same game couln't offer the players a choice of
>>> which payment model they prefer.
>>
>> The problem is that with the pay-per-hour-played scheme is that those
>> hours
>> are going to predominantly be peak hours.
>
> Then "pay-per-day".
Same deal. They still have to have enough server capacity for the peak, so
you'd have to still pay enough to size those servers accordingly.
> Doesn't Matrix Online has something like that?
That's kind of moot. Matrix Online has like 6 subscribers.
Dirk Pfeiffer
Mar 2006 21:11:04) about "Re: Monthly fee are pure theft":
FL> "Per Abrahamsen" <abraham@dina. kvl.dk> wrote in message news:
FL> rj7j6ny...@sheridan.dina.kvl.dk...
>> "Fred Liken"
>> <noth...@toocoolforschool.com> writes:
>>>> I don't see why the same game couln't offer the players a choice of
>>>> which payment model they prefer.
>>> The problem is that with the pay-per- hour-played scheme is that those
>>> hours
>>> are going to predominantly be peak hours.
>> Then "pay-per-day".
FL> Same deal. They still have to have enough server capacity for the
FL> peak, so you'd have to still pay enough to size those servers
FL> accordingly.
>> Doesn't Matrix Online has something like that?
FL> That's kind of moot. Matrix Online has like 6 subscribers...after SOE
FL> took over.
Fixed!
Bye
Dirk Pfeiffer <di...@dbx501.de> Wed, 22 Mar 2006 17:14:29 +0200
=== Posted with Qusnetsoft NewsReader 2.2.0.8
Per Abrahamsen
> Same deal. They still have to have enough server capacity for the peak, so
> you'd have to still pay enough to size those servers accordingly.
Yes. This is quite independent on whether you pay hourly or monthly.
So it is not a reason not to offer both.
Of course, the hourly rate would have to be a lot higher than the
monthly rate divided by the amount of hours in a month. Just like
flat-fee phone rates are a lot lower than the pay-per-minute rates
multiplied by the number of minutes in the subscription period.
(I saved a lot of money when I switched from a subscription based to a
pay-per-use based phone service).
Like phone-services, games could offer reduced rates for off-hours,
where your connection doesn't really cost them anything.
Apropos peak hours: The problem would be much smaller if game
providers stopped dividing their market into different geographical
regions. A division by language may be needed, but the geographical
based division is just plain stupid.
Lord of the Sith
> OK guys my answer to all who kindly argued about my not playing WOW
> and commenting. (Se my above longer answer). That part has nothing to
> do with WOW.
>
> I just said that I'll never ever pay full price for game
> just to play it only one month or so or even neither that in some
> cases. And continue to pay that same game every month again and again
> and at the end not have opportunity to came back to that game and play
> it 10- 15- 20 year later :-). And not to have opportunity to resell it
> when I am tired of it....
>
> I hope that all you with all the money in the world to spend on 100%
> theft got the point now ;-)
>
> Let the FREE source be with you all!
I like Guild Wars, too, but I don't think it is better than WoW, except
in terms of server stability/reliability. I have played EQ2, Guild
Wars, and WoW, and IMHO WoW > GW > EQ2.
Xocyll
of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:
>"Fred Liken" <noth...@toocoolforschool.com> writes:
>
>> Same deal. They still have to have enough server capacity for the peak, so
>> you'd have to still pay enough to size those servers accordingly.
>
>Yes. This is quite independent on whether you pay hourly or monthly.
>So it is not a reason not to offer both.
>
>Of course, the hourly rate would have to be a lot higher than the
>monthly rate divided by the amount of hours in a month. Just like
>flat-fee phone rates are a lot lower than the pay-per-minute rates
>multiplied by the number of minutes in the subscription period.
>
>(I saved a lot of money when I switched from a subscription based to a
>pay-per-use based phone service).
>
>Like phone-services, games could offer reduced rates for off-hours,
>where your connection doesn't really cost them anything.
Phone companies can do it because they are relatively local, but a game
that has players in North America, Europe and Asia isn't going to have
much, if any, off hours.
>Apropos peak hours: The problem would be much smaller if game
>providers stopped dividing their market into different geographical
>regions. A division by language may be needed, but the geographical
>based division is just plain stupid.
Except that geographical based division is the only real way your
off-hours suggestion could be implemented.