**A Message to MoJo & Bethesda Re: Nude Women in Daggerfall**
G.
To MoJo, Bethesda, and anyone who may care,
I'm a gamer like you. I love RPG's - Arena was great and, so far,
I like Daggerfall too. However, my appreciation of DF, and of
Bethesda, has suffered considerably due to the inclusion of
nude women in the game.
Now before you go throwing your head back groaning "Oh no,
not another one of *them*!", read this and actually *think* about
it for a minute.
My question is very simply: Why?
What was the purpose of putting this type of trash in this game...
to give all you yucksters a 'har, har, har'? You guys simply do not
realize that this is extremely degrading. No, really. Consider this...
there is *nothing* which can make men, as a group, feel this dis-
respected and undignified. Therefore, you don't even understand
what it is to be demeaned in this way.
Black people know... depicting them unnecessarily in situations
of slavery is demeaning and disrespectful. Religious people know...
they've had their share of inappropriate depictions. Males, in
general, don't have a clue what it's like, so I know you are all going
to flame me big-time.
But to me, including this cheap garbage in Daggerfall shows a
complete lack of respect for women on the part of *everyone* who
had anything to do with producing the game. This includes the Beta
testers. MoJo, if you are female (a "goddess" in your own opinion)
why would you not take offense to this, stand up, and ask that it
be removed?
One scream I am sure to hear is "That's what the child lock is for!"
Yeah, well, there's a problem with that. My understanding is that it
also locks out the violence and gore... two things that I *do* feel
have a place in this game. So I am forced to put up with one to
keep the other.
Why couldn't they have had a selective lock-out? It couldn't be so
tough in a game where so much can be customized to allow something
like this. And don't suggest I take the game back. I won't because I
like the game as a whole. Like I said earlier, though, my appreciation
of Daggerfall suffers considerably knowing I have to put up with this
juvenile nonsense.
Said my piece.
Julio Trujillo
Before the flames come...
Your statements are fair and your proposed solution (i.e.. separate
lock-outs) is sensible. I'm also glad to read that you can set aside your
objections and enjoy the game regardless.
Good post!
Julio
Desslock
G. wrote:
>
> To MoJo, Bethesda, and anyone who may care,
> I'm a gamer like you. I love RPG's - Arena was great and, so far,
> I like Daggerfall too.
<big snip>
>MoJo, if you are female (a "goddess" in your own opinion <snip>
MoJo is female.
<more snip>
> One scream I am sure to hear is "That's what the child lock is for!"
> Yeah, well, there's a problem with that. My understanding is that it
> also locks out the violence and gore... two things that I *do* feel
> have a place in this game. So I am forced to put up with one to
> keep the other.
I think it's kind of funny that you are so offended by the, admittedly
gratuitous, nudity in a game, yet you want the "violence and gore".
It's a pretty sad statement of our society when "sexuality", even
cartoonish sex, is seen as a bad, offensive thing,and yet "violence and
gore" is seen as an acceptable, good thing. Kind of reminds me of U.S.
televison (plenty of violence) compared to European television (plenty
of nudity and sex).
For the record I don't mind either sex or violence in a game, and I
think Bethesda was more than responsible by including the child lock in
Daggerfall (not saying that your compromise child lock isn't a good
idea, I just found your statement of your tastes interesting).
--
Philip
>to give all you yucksters a 'har, har, har'? You guys simply do not
>realize that this is extremely degrading. No, really. Consider this...
Degrading? How? Because they happen to be naked? Since when
is being naked considered degrading? Being naked is natural for
anyone. This is a fact. I don't spaz out when I see naked men.
Or men in commercials with NO SHIRTS on. I just go on with
life, and it doesn't affect me in any way. We weren't born on this
planet with clothes, so why should we have to look on a particular
group of people any different if they wear clothes or not?
>there is *nothing* which can make men, as a group, feel this dis-
>respected and undignified. Therefore, you don't even understand
>what it is to be demeaned in this way.
I could care less what people think of me because of my gender.
I am who I am, and other peoples opinions don't mean too much
to me. If they can't accept me, that's their problem, not mine.
> Black people know... depicting them unnecessarily in situations
>of slavery is demeaning and disrespectful. Religious people know...
What does this have to do with being naked? NOTHING. Slavery was
WRONG, we've figured this out and moved on. Are you REALLY
trying to say being naked is just as wrong? *shakes head in shame*.
> Why couldn't they have had a selective lock-out? It couldn't be so
>tough in a game where so much can be customized to allow something
This I can agree with. A selective lockout would have cut some traffic
down on the group. :P
Timothy Burke
In article <324B37...@prolog.net>, acp...@prolog.net wrote:
> The main reason an RPG is created is to give the player a sense that
> they are really there. We are talking about medieval times here, people
> couldn't always afford clothes. Social classes and women's and race
> rights WERE different, and those parts fo the game were more than likely
> added to give a sense of the time you are dealing with.
Oh, dearie me. Listen, aside from the merits or lack thereof of the main
argument at hand, this is a really silly assertion. I promise you that
medieval Europeans did not lounge about taverns and houses in the nude
because they were too poor to afford clothing.
Dale Beaver
gfis...@indyvax.iupui.edu (G.) wrote:
>
>To MoJo, Bethesda, and anyone who may care,
> I'm a gamer like you. I love RPG's - Arena was great and, so far,
>I like Daggerfall too. However, my appreciation of DF, and of
>Bethesda, has suffered considerably due to the inclusion of
>nude women in the game.
> Now before you go throwing your head back groaning "Oh no,
>not another one of *them*!", read this and actually *think* about
>it for a minute.
> My question is very simply: Why?
> What was the purpose of putting this type of trash in this game...
>to give all you yucksters a 'har, har, har'? You guys simply do not
>realize that this is extremely degrading. No, really. Consider this...
>there is *nothing* which can make men, as a group, feel this dis-
>respected and undignified. Therefore, you don't even understand
>what it is to be demeaned in this way.
> Black people know... depicting them unnecessarily in situations
>of slavery is demeaning and disrespectful. Religious people know...
>they've had their share of inappropriate depictions. Males, in
>general, don't have a clue what it's like, so I know you are all going
>to flame me big-time.
> But to me, including this cheap garbage in Daggerfall shows a
>complete lack of respect for women on the part of *everyone* who
>had anything to do with producing the game. This includes the Beta
>testers. MoJo, if you are female (a "goddess" in your own opinion)
>why would you not take offense to this, stand up, and ask that it
>be removed?
> One scream I am sure to hear is "That's what the child lock is for!"
>Yeah, well, there's a problem with that. My understanding is that it
>also locks out the violence and gore... two things that I *do* feel
>have a place in this game. So I am forced to put up with one to
>keep the other.
> Why couldn't they have had a selective lock-out? It couldn't be so
>tough in a game where so much can be customized to allow something
>like this. And don't suggest I take the game back. I won't because I
>like the game as a whole. Like I said earlier, though, my appreciation
>of Daggerfall suffers considerably knowing I have to put up with this
>juvenile nonsense.
>
>Said my piece.
>
>Gayle
>gfis...@indyvax.iupui.edu
Good point about having the multiple choice lock-out. As for
the rest..... If this offends you, then simply don't go into other
people's hostel rooms, or the back rooms of temples. Those are the
only places I've seen this. Although if you go into someone's private
home, you will probably see it there sooner or later.
Just as a general point, what is the big deal about it? I know
this is the era of building mountains out of molehills, but come on. A
low res, 2D bitmap that does not move, has just enough detail to say
it is female, two poses (that I've seen) that could be at home on the
cover of Cosmo, Playboy, or the Saturday Evening Post? The few places
I've seen this it was within the realm of probability. The Temples (I
think these would qualify as 'pagan' by modern definitions) where
there could be ritual nudity, and inns. People change clothes, you
know, and inns were notorious for being rife with prostitutes.
Admittedly, the bitmaps in the inns should either react with some
variant of 'mind if I get decent?' or 'how's it hanging, stud or
studette', depending on what they are doing there.
If there are no beefcake bitmaps, then this is something that
I would hope Bethesda addresses in a patch; I would be interested in
seeing if the 'sauce for the goose' saying really holds true.
DLRapp
>I think it's kind of funny that you are so offended by the, admittedly
>gratuitous, nudity in a game, yet you want the "violence and gore".
>It's a pretty sad statement of our society when "sexuality", even
>cartoonish sex, is seen as a bad, offensive thing,and yet "violence and
>gore" is seen as an acceptable, good thing. Kind of reminds me of U.S.
>televison (plenty of violence) compared to European television (plenty
>of nudity and sex).
Her point isn't based on it's existence in the game. The point she is
making is the need for it. If the nudity were essential for the
continuity of the storyline, I gather she would have no objection. She
states that the violence and gore have a place in the game, i.e. they
are integral to the plot and playability. On the other hand, the nudity,
in her opinion are not. She has a valid argument and everyone should
argue the issue in this context; rather than distorting it into something
that it's not.
Your argument above is also a valid issue, it just has absolutely nothing
to do with her issue.
Zardas
ae...@u.washington.edu (Micheal Keane) wrote:
>In article <52egig$s...@aim.et.iupui.edu>,
>G. <gfis...@indyvax.iupui.edu> wrote:
>>
>>To MoJo, Bethesda, and anyone who may care,
>> I'm a gamer like you. I love RPG's - Arena was great and, so far,
>>I like Daggerfall too. However, my appreciation of DF, and of
>>Bethesda, has suffered considerably due to the inclusion of
>>nude women in the game.
>What about all the nude men in the game? Damn it, Daggerfall has suffered
>greatly from teh inclusion of countless topless men in the game of which
>there a vast number more than topless women.
>You should be glad Bethseda didn't opt for the "Duke Nukem 3D" route
>where you can give dollar bills to strippers and the like. The little
>nudity in the game is hardly something to complain about.
>> But to me, including this cheap garbage in Daggerfall shows a
>>complete lack of respect for women on the part of *everyone* who
>>had anything to do with producing the game. This includes the Beta
>>testers. MoJo, if you are female (a "goddess" in your own opinion)
>>why would you not take offense to this, stand up, and ask that it
>>be removed?
>Why should she? Maybe she really doesn't care. For instance, I'm Irish but
>I'm rarely(if ever) offended by Irish jokes for instance that depict us as
>alcoholics.
>--
>Micheal Keane(ae...@u.washington.edu)
>Before sending unsolicited commercial email to this address, read the
>agreement on my webpage: http://weber.u.washington.edu/~aexia/license.txt
>Join the Church of Last Thursday of Queen Maeve the Cat and be saved!
I think there should be even more nudity in DF! Jeez, lighten up
Desslock
> >cartoonish sex, is seen as a bad, offensive thing,and yet "violence and gore" is seen as an acceptable, good thing. Kind of reminds me of U.S.televison (plenty of violence) compared to European television (plenty of nudity and sex).
---
> Her point isn't based on it's existence in the game.
(how about "its" existence)
> The point she is making is the need for it.
(oh, that mysterious "it")
>If the nudity were essential for the continuity of the storyline, I gather she would have no objection. She states that the violence and gore have a place in the game, i.e. they are integral to the plot and playability.
("of the game", presumably. No need to finish off your sentence, we
know what you're saying).
> On the other hand, the nudity, in her opinion are not.
(how about "is" not)
> Your argument above is also a valid issue, it just has absolutely nothing to do with her issue.
Your grammar is excellent! I guess it's understandable, given your
remarkable grasp of the English language, that you misunderstood my
statement. What I was in fact saying, listen closely now, is that I
find it amusing that someone could be so offended by cartoonish
portrayals of sexuality, which are extremely tame compared to the
average movie on cable TV, and yet gleefully advocate more violence and
gore.
Interesting logic - gore and violence add to a game's "playability"
(i.e. implying that one "couldn't play that game, not enough violence
and gore"),and yet nudity "ruins" a game's playability - no nudity in
the real world - plenty of violence and gore though.
Bill Niles
Zardas wrote:
>
> ae...@u.washington.edu (Micheal Keane) wrote:
>
> >In article <52egig$s...@aim.et.iupui.edu>,
> >G. <gfis...@indyvax.iupui.edu> wrote:
> >>
> >>To MoJo, Bethesda, and anyone who may care,
> >> I'm a gamer like you. I love RPG's - Arena was great and, so far,
> >>I like Daggerfall too. However, my appreciation of DF, and of
> >>Bethesda, has suffered considerably due to the inclusion of
> >>nude women in the game.
>
>
> >> But to me, including this cheap garbage in Daggerfall shows a
> >>complete lack of respect for women on the part of *everyone* who
> >>had anything to do with producing the game. This includes the Beta
> >>testers. MoJo, if you are female (a "goddess" in your own opinion)
> >>why would you not take offense to this, stand up, and ask that it
> >>be removed?
> I think there should be even more nudity in DF! Jeez, lighten up
There's nude women in the game? Oh, that's what those flesh-colored
globs with
little square nipples are! :) Actually, I don't like killing nymphs.
There should
be an "Ask out on date" option.
LIGHTEN UP FOLKS!! If you are offended by pixellated nudity (such as it
is) and
pixellated blood and guts, not to mention the fact that roughly 75% of
the things
you kill are PEOPLE (seems like mostly women in skimpy chain mail), then
I caution
you now NOT TO BUY DAGGERFALL OR ANY OTHER RPG CURRENTLY AVAILABLE!
NOTE: Playing computer games, just like watching television, is an
optional part of
life. An excess of either has been known to cause cancer in laboratory
animals.
Wiggly Worm
Michael C. Kempf
>In article <52egig$s...@aim.et.iupui.edu>,
>G. <gfis...@indyvax.iupui.edu> wrote:
>>
>>To MoJo, Bethesda, and anyone who may care,
>> I'm a gamer like you. I love RPG's - Arena was great and, so far,
>>I like Daggerfall too. However, my appreciation of DF, and of
>>Bethesda, has suffered considerably due to the inclusion of
>>nude women in the game.
>> But to me, including this cheap garbage in Daggerfall shows a
>>complete lack of respect for women on the part of *everyone* who
>>had anything to do with producing the game. This includes the Beta
>>testers. MoJo, if you are female (a "goddess" in your own opinion)
>>why would you not take offense to this, stand up, and ask that it
>>be removed?
I find it extremely ironic, Gayle, that you object to bare-breasted
women in DF (I mean EVERYBODY's got nipples...don't they?), and yet say
not one word about the massive slaughter of nearly every type of
creature, including humans, throughout the entire game. Speaks volumes
about today's society.
Mike (also an IUPUI alum).
mer...@mastnet.net
gfis...@indyvax.iupui.edu (G.) wrote:
>To MoJo, Bethesda, and anyone who may care,
> I'm a gamer like you. I love RPG's - Arena was great and, so far,
>I like Daggerfall too. However, my appreciation of DF, and of
>Bethesda, has suffered considerably due to the inclusion of
>nude women in the game.
<rant mode=ON>
<strong language=ON>
Perhaps if more games included nude men in submissive positions
leering obscenely and passers-by, more gaming companies would actually
understand what this same treatment does to women: it cheapens us all.
The first depiction of a nude woman I found *slightly* amusing...but
the more I saw of it the more offended I became. I am FAR from a
prude, I love a good nudie movie like everyone else does, and a
healthy and slightly twisted sex life is great fun, but I have to
agree with the complaints about this. Depicting women in this way is
boorish, and shows young men around the world just what other men
would present women as: objects to be oggled and giggled about. Lets
get a little real here, Bethesda. I shelled out my 60$ just like
everyone else, and my female character is one mother of a
fighter/magician/thief/schmmozer. I would pit her against any of the
male characters in this game. Must all other women in the game besides
my character be protrayed as big-boobied bimbos waiting for a man to
come along and save/pickpocket/fuck her?
And while I'm nit-picking, let me mention this is well... anyone
notice that when you choose a female character, as I, of course did,
and she is undressed, she is anatomically correct, right down to the
inclusion of pubic hair? After seeing this, I demanded to see my
husband's male character stipped down as well, to see if the same
attention to detail was evoked. *SUPRISE*! The male characters, nude,
look remarkably like Ken dolls on steroids. They just have a sort of
nondescript ~lump~ where the genitals should be. Interesting
double-standard :\
Ok, so maybe we don't necessairly *need* to have PC (politicaly
correct) games, but even a token attempt at respect could at least be
made, no?
</rant mode>
</language>
{Judi} IRCop, srpingfield server, Undernet
http://www.mastnet.net/~mercury/
Dick Jarvinen
>And while I'm nit-picking, let me mention this is well... anyone
>notice that when you choose a female character, as I, of course did,
>and she is undressed, she is anatomically correct, right down to the
>inclusion of pubic hair? After seeing this, I demanded to see my
>husband's male character stipped down as well, to see if the same
>attention to detail was evoked. *SUPRISE*! The male characters, nude,
>look remarkably like Ken dolls on steroids. They just have a sort of
>nondescript ~lump~ where the genitals should be. Interesting
>double-standard :\
>
Well, maybe, ahem..., its because, er..., um.. the designers (cough) were a
little embarrassed about, um, you know, the, ahh... size? of.. of.. of the...
watchmacallitsthatguyshave... and didn't want to, well... feel insecure by,
oh..., actually, ah... showingthethingsthatguyshave, ...and their, mmmm...,
girlfriends would all laugh.
------------------------------------------------------
jarv...@proaxis.com
Julio Trujillo
Timothy Burke <tbu...@cc.swarthmore.edu> wrote in article
<tburke1-2709...@mac10.pearson.swarthmore.edu>...
You beat me to the punch.. I had to laugh at that one myself!
I guess the beaches of Australia must be full of poor people... and then
there's the growing problem of The Naked Homeless...
<Your Name>
In article <324B37...@prolog.net>, AcidOS <acp...@prolog.net> says:
=
=The main reason an RPG is created is to give the player a sense that
=they are really there. We are talking about medieval times here, people
=couldn't always afford clothes.
-------------(snip)-------------
= And I'm sure there's some people that don't think that gore should be
=included in the game. That too is added for realism.
And finding Grizzly Bears in dungeons?... now that's *real* realistic,
isn't it? Sorry, fella - I don't buy your 'they did it for realism'
excuse.
G.
jupiter
mer...@mastnet.net wrote:
><rant mode=ON>
><strong language=ON>
[reasonable argument against gratuitous nudity in DF snipped for
brevity]
></rant mode>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
></language>
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Judi, have you been hand-coding HTML *again* ? ;)
>{Judi} IRCop, srpingfield server, Undernet
>http://www.mastnet.net/~mercury/
--
Greg
jup...@mastnet.net
http://www.mastnet.net/~mercury
Bill....@worldnet.att.net
If you want to see naked men in the game, try unequipping the pants on
your character sheet! :)
Michael C. Kempf
In <52ik68$8...@mds2.mastnet.net> mer...@mastnet.net writes:
>Must all other women in the game besides
>my character be protrayed as big-boobied bimbos waiting for a man to
>come along and save/pickpocket/fuck her?
>
>And while I'm nit-picking, let me mention this is well... anyone
>notice that when you choose a female character, as I, of course did,
>and she is undressed, she is anatomically correct, right down to the
>inclusion of pubic hair? After seeing this, I demanded to see my
>husband's male character stipped down as well, to see if the same
>attention to detail was evoked. *SUPRISE*! The male characters, nude,
>look remarkably like Ken dolls on steroids. They just have a sort of
>nondescript ~lump~ where the genitals should be. Interesting
>double-standard :\
>{Judi} IRCop, srpingfield server, Undernet
>http://www.mastnet.net/~mercury/
I will agree that the depiction of the male characters, nude, should be
depicted as a male would actually look, dick and all, and I can see how
you could see this as a double standard, and I agree, I think Bethesda
should change this in a patch. I also agree that there seems to be no
logical reasons for the nudes shown in taverns, temples, etc, although
it wouldn't bother me if scenarios were generated to include nude
NPC's. However, I think you and Gayle are making a mountain out of a
molehill by being overly sensitive about this issue. After all, nudes
are but a miniscule part of the game as a whole.
Mike
Kevin Scott Mcguire
Dick Jarvinen (jarv...@proaxis.com) wrote:
: Well, maybe, ahem..., its because, er..., um.. the designers (cough) were a
: watchmacallitsthatguyshave... and didn't want to, well... feel insecure by,
: oh..., actually, ah... showingthethingsthatguyshave, ...and their, mmmm...,
: girlfriends would all laugh.
Absolutely brilliant, Dick, um, Richard. :)
I think Gayle's original point was quite good - we've had lots of great
RPG's without gratuitous nudity, and I can't imagine anyone making the
argument that "it's not the quests, characters or spells that makes Daggerfall
great, it's them naked babes!" (though the net usually proves me wrong in
these sorts of assumptions...)
The variable child lock idea is great.
And while I'm on the subject, I didn't buy Duke3D, even though the demo
was _fun_, because of the disrespect for women that was all over Duke.
Thankfully, there's always Quake...
As to blood-n-guts being ok, I like to fantasize about violently hacking
my way through a dungeon of nasties - its something I would never do in
real life. I see enough cheap shots at women in my daily life - its not
something I fantasize about. Of course, your mileage may vary.
Cheers,
Joshua Io
"Julio Trujillo" <jul...@wimsey.com> wrote:
>Timothy Burke <tbu...@cc.swarthmore.edu> wrote in article
><tburke1-2709...@mac10.pearson.swarthmore.edu>...
>> In article <324B37...@prolog.net>, acp...@prolog.net wrote:
>>
>> > likely added to give a sense of the time you are dealing with.
>>
>> Oh, dearie me. Listen, aside from the merits or lack thereof of the main
>> argument at hand, this is a really silly assertion. I promise you that
>> medieval Europeans did not lounge about taverns and houses in the nude
>> because they were too poor to afford clothing.
>>
>You beat me to the punch.. I had to laugh at that one myself!
>I guess the beaches of Australia must be full of poor people... and then
>there's the growing problem of The Naked Homeless...
Laff. And they say good satirical comebacks died w/"A Modest
Proposal".
_____________________________________________________________________
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Joshua Io
mer...@mastnet.net wrote:
>Perhaps if more games included nude men in submissive positions
>leering obscenely and passers-by, more gaming companies would actually
>understand what this same treatment does to women: it cheapens us all.
>The first depiction of a nude woman I found *slightly* amusing...but
>the more I saw of it the more offended I became.
All you have to do is turn childguard on. The game suffers from
enough genuine bugs so that to hold bad taste against the programmers
seems somewhat beside the point--especially in a society (the U.S.)
that features as much gratuitous sex as it does.
>And while I'm nit-picking, let me mention this is well... anyone
>notice that when you choose a female character, as I, of course did,
>and she is undressed, she is anatomically correct, right down to the
>inclusion of pubic hair? After seeing this, I demanded to see my
>husband's male character stipped down as well, to see if the same
>attention to detail was evoked. *SUPRISE*! The male characters, nude,
>look remarkably like Ken dolls on steroids. They just have a sort of
>nondescript ~lump~ where the genitals should be. Interesting
>double-standard :\
I didn't notice this though. It does, at least, give you a good idea
of the level of cognition at work w/in the minds of the programmers.
You know, I'm still waiting for a game that deals w/sex in an
intelligent manner. We either have the porno "games" or we have stuff
like DF. Duke Nukem at least had undressed women in logical
situations--err, w/aliens all around. Never mind.
We need a game that deals w/sex like the films Cafe Flesh or Liquid
Sky dealt with it.
Edward Adams
[SNIP]
: gore" is seen as an acceptable, good thing. Kind of reminds me of U.S.
: televison (plenty of violence) compared to European television (plenty
: of nudity and sex).
[Snip Junior]
Ooops, just like to point out that European TV has a lot less Sex and
nudity than Amercian TV. Well, I can't prove it, but that's my opinion.
Heh, sorry, just had to point it out.
cheers,
edward
--
-------------------------------------------------------
| Hah! You actually Edward Adams |
| read my sig? ead...@singnet.com.sg |
| |
| *** aZeroTh lives *** |
| Boom. Click. Quake 'n Bake 4ever. |
-------------------------------------------------------
Desslock
Edward Adams wrote:
>
> [SNIP]
> : gore" is seen as an acceptable, good thing. Kind of reminds me of U.S.
> : televison (plenty of violence) compared to European television (plenty
> : of nudity and sex).
> [Snip Junior]
>
> Ooops, just like to point out that European TV has a lot less Sex and
> nudity than Amercian TV. Well, I can't prove it, but that's my opinion.
>
> Heh, sorry, just had to point it out.
>
> cheers,
> edward
> --
movies. Until shows like "NYPD Blue" came along a few years ago, none
of the major U.S. networks (CBS, NBC, ABC) would allow any nudity, at
any time, on any of their shows. Italian, Spanish, French TV all allow
nudity. Even the British shows that we get in North America and play on
PBS, like "Tenko" feature nudity.
This thread is getting a lot of traffic. I think that the nudity in
Daggerfall is just kind of silly - I can't imagine who would find it
titallating. If Bethesda really wanted to include nudity to make the
game more "realistic" (unlikely, in my opinion), it should have been
contained in logical locations like "houses of ill repute", which in
turn might have been more titallating to the adolescent, or
adolescent-minded crowd who enjoy simple displays of extremely soft-core
pornography.
I originally responded just because I thought it was funny that someone
wanted to be able to "enjoy" graphic depictions of "gore and violence"
and yet was horribly offended by a display of pixelated tits.
Interesting "family" values.
The Bishop of Battle
In article <52lvd5$a...@lantana.singnet.com.sg>, ead...@merlion.singnet.com.sg (Edward Adams) wrote:
>[SNIP]
>: gore" is seen as an acceptable, good thing. Kind of reminds me of U.S.
>: televison (plenty of violence) compared to European television (plenty
>: of nudity and sex).
>[Snip Junior]
>
>Ooops, just like to point out that European TV has a lot less Sex and
>nudity than Amercian TV. Well, I can't prove it, but that's my opinion.
>
>Heh, sorry, just had to point it out.
>
>
>cheers,
>edward
Actually, European TV (except in England) has considerably more nudity
than in America. In Italy, they show full Porno's on regular TV. People who
don't like that stuff, just turn the channel. I wish everyone had that
attitude.
Mojo is some kind of loser. If she does't like the Nudity in DaggerFall, then
she can ask Betheseda for a refund or play it with the Child Lock on.
We need to be realistic here. No one forces you to see nudity...you have to
seek it out. If you find it, and you don't like it, then just turn the
channel. There are probably tons of other RPG's on the Market without
Nudity, Mojo should go play one of those.
The Bishop of Battle
bis...@primenet.com
---
Member: The Alpha Dog Alliance,
Creators of Strain: Hard Corps
a Total Conversion for Doom 2.
---
Member: -=UDIC=-
Battle Dragon
---
URL: http://www.primenet.com/~bishop
---
"Thus would I speak to myself of Cathuria,
but ever would the bearded man warn me to
turn back to the happy shores of Sona-Nyl;
for Sona-Nyl is known of men, while none
hath ever beheld Cathuria."
---
Dwayne Carnachan
dock...@ix.netcom.com(Michael C. Kempf ) wrote:
>In <52ik68$8...@mds2.mastnet.net> mer...@mastnet.net writes:
>>And while I'm nit-picking, let me mention this is well... anyone
>>notice that when you choose a female character, as I, of course did,
>>and she is undressed, she is anatomically correct, right down to the
>>inclusion of pubic hair? After seeing this, I demanded to see my
>>husband's male character stipped down as well, to see if the same
>>attention to detail was evoked. *SUPRISE*! The male characters, nude,
>>look remarkably like Ken dolls on steroids. They just have a sort of
>>nondescript ~lump~ where the genitals should be. Interesting
>>double-standard :\
>>{Judi} IRCop, srpingfield server, Undernet
>>http://www.mastnet.net/~mercury/
>I will agree that the depiction of the male characters, nude, should be
>depicted as a male would actually look, dick and all, and I can see how
>you could see this as a double standard, and I agree, I think Bethesda
>should change this in a patch. I also agree that there seems to be no
>logical reasons for the nudes shown in taverns, temples, etc, although
>it wouldn't bother me if scenarios were generated to include nude
>NPC's. However, I think you and Gayle are making a mountain out of a
>molehill by being overly sensitive about this issue. After all, nudes
>are but a miniscule part of the game as a whole.
hmmmm i just thought of another point to add to this thread (hey i'm
bored at work today!) - i gather we are all talking about the human
characters here - what about the non-humans - do they really have to
have the same sort of genitalia as us normal folk - are there naked
non-human characters - wow it could be a xenophiles delight :-)
hmmm bethsada should point in one naked male character so that females
(and like minded males) can take out their frustration on them by
hacking them into tiny little pieces - hold on maybe thats getting a
tad too realistic ;-)
(come on now - i just KNOW someone now wants to play a character
called mrs Bobbit)
====================================================================
Dwayne Carnachan
Slave to the Computer
Yet Another Educational Insitute
"MAD!!! You dare call me MAD!! The greatest mind that ever lived!!!"
Dwayne Carnachan
Bill....@worldnet.att.net wrote:
>If you want to see naked men in the game, try unequipping the pants on
>your character sheet! :)
shouldnt that be unzipping :-)
(sorry i couldnt resist)
Desslock
If you've been following my posts, you'll know that I agree with what
you're saying re: childlock - but you are addressing your response to
the wrong person.
"Mojo" is a female Bethesda playtester and the original poster addressed
the nudity complaint to her (which is why Mojo is mentioned in the
Subject line) - Mojo has actually been extremely helpful in answering
people's Daggerfall questions, and has so far not commented on this
thread.
--
Scott Hoppe
In article <52kd2p$l...@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com>,
dock...@ix.netcom.co says...
>
>In <52ik68$8...@mds2.mastnet.net> mer...@mastnet.net writes:
>
>>Must all other women in the game besides
>>my character be protrayed as big-boobied bimbos waiting for a man to
>>come along and save/pickpocket/fuck her?
>>
>>notice that when you choose a female character, as I, of course did,
>>and she is undressed, she is anatomically correct, right down to the
>>inclusion of pubic hair? After seeing this, I demanded to see my
>>husband's male character stipped down as well, to see if the same
>>attention to detail was evoked. *SUPRISE*! The male characters, nude,
>>look remarkably like Ken dolls on steroids. They just have a sort of
>>nondescript ~lump~ where the genitals should be. Interesting
>>double-standard :\
>
>>{Judi} IRCop, srpingfield server, Undernet
>>http://www.mastnet.net/~mercury/
>
>I will agree that the depiction of the male characters, nude, should be
>depicted as a male would actually look, dick and all, and I can see how
>you could see this as a double standard, and I agree, I think Bethesda
>should change this in a patch. I also agree that there seems to be no
>logical reasons for the nudes shown in taverns, temples, etc, although
>it wouldn't bother me if scenarios were generated to include nude
>NPC's. However, I think you and Gayle are making a mountain out of a
>molehill by being overly sensitive about this issue. After all, nudes
>are but a miniscule part of the game as a whole.
>
There's no 'logical' reason for us to be running around in a virtual
world slaughtering almost everything we see, either...except that we
enjoy it. Since the odd nude woman here and there apparently
contributes to some people's experience -- it's in there.
Unfortunately the NOW group is trying to adrogenize the females in our
society, and to that end have brainwashed their followers into thinking
that a depiction of a nude female is somehow a degradation of any female
that sees it. The idea that a depiction of a naked, human body (male or
female) is somehow degrading to an entire gender is absolutely
ludicrous. If the depiction shows a degrading act being performed, THEN
it's degrading, but a naked human by itself doesn't degrade anyone.
-=( Scott )=-
Scott Hoppe <batt...@cwc.lsu.edu>
http://www.cwc.lsu.edu/people/shoppe
Joshua Io
sho...@cwc.lsu.edu (Scott Hoppe) wrote:
>In article <52kd2p$l...@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com>,
>dock...@ix.netcom.co says...
>>In <52ik68$8...@mds2.mastnet.net> mer...@mastnet.net writes:
>>>And while I'm nit-picking, let me mention this is well... anyone
>>>notice that when you choose a female character, as I, of course did,
>>>and she is undressed, she is anatomically correct, right down to the
>>>inclusion of pubic hair? After seeing this, I demanded to see my
>>>husband's male character stipped down as well, to see if the same
>>>attention to detail was evoked. *SUPRISE*! The male characters, nude,
>>>look remarkably like Ken dolls on steroids. They just have a sort of
>>>nondescript ~lump~ where the genitals should be. Interesting
>>>double-standard :\
>>depicted as a male would actually look, dick and all, and I can see how
>>you could see this as a double standard, and I agree, I think Bethesda
>>should change this in a patch. I also agree that there seems to be no
>>logical reasons for the nudes shown in taverns, temples, etc, although
>>it wouldn't bother me if scenarios were generated to include nude
>>NPC's. However, I think you and Gayle are making a mountain out of a
>>molehill by being overly sensitive about this issue.
>world slaughtering almost everything we see, either...except that we
>enjoy it.
That's a reason that's plenty logical.
>Unfortunately the NOW group is trying to adrogenize the females in our
>society, and to that end have brainwashed their followers into thinking
>that a depiction of a nude female is somehow a degradation of any female
>that sees it. The idea that a depiction of a naked, human body (male or
>female) is somehow degrading to an entire gender is absolutely
>ludicrous. If the depiction shows a degrading act being performed, THEN
>it's degrading, but a naked human by itself doesn't degrade anyone.
The original poster didn't present her position as one based on the
political views of NOW. And she didn't object to the simple depiction
of nudity; rather, she objected to the depiction of nudity of only one
sex--a depiction she believed gratuitous and which certainly, at the
least, demonstrated a choice by the programmers to portray only one
sex. The question, then, is why did the programmers choose to portray
only that one sex in that manner?
And if someone is sensitive, they're sensitive. It's not for others
to measure their sensitivity as excessive--at least, not "logically"
(since you seem so concerned about logic).
Alex
mer...@mastnet.net wrote:
>gfis...@indyvax.iupui.edu (G.) wrote:
>>To MoJo, Bethesda, and anyone who may care,
>> I'm a gamer like you. I love RPG's - Arena was great and, so far,
>>I like Daggerfall too. However, my appreciation of DF, and of
>>Bethesda, has suffered considerably due to the inclusion of
>>nude women in the game.
<snip>
><rant mode=ON>
><strong language=ON>
>And while I'm nit-picking, let me mention this is well... anyone
>notice that when you choose a female character, as I, of course did,
>and she is undressed, she is anatomically correct, right down to the
>inclusion of pubic hair? After seeing this, I demanded to see my
>husband's male character stipped down as well, to see if the same
>attention to detail was evoked. *SUPRISE*! The male characters, nude,
>look remarkably like Ken dolls on steroids. They just have a sort of
>nondescript ~lump~ where the genitals should be. Interesting
>double-standard :\
I didn't notice that. I like seeing the nude female form as much as the next guy but
why not include some nude guys for the gals as long as they're at it (or eliminate
both)? I wouldn't mind seeing more females playing computer games. In fact, I'd
like to see my wife play one once in awhile so that I don't feel that I have to
justify a $70 purchase whenever I want the latest game. Unfortunately, games seem to
be geared toward the juvenile horny-geek and she doesn't like the double-standard any
more than the next gal. If they matured just a tad, perhaps Bethesda could be
pioneers in gaining a whole new demographic to the RPG world.
>Ok, so maybe we don't necessairly *need* to have PC (politicaly
>correct) games, but even a token attempt at respect could at least be
>made, no?
Yes.
- Alex O.
Elmer Fudd
I actually *like* naked women..!
MoJo
I've been away for a few days so I'm just now reading this entire thread for
the first time.
There are two issues here...first, did the female beta testers find the
treatment of women in this game at all offensive? The answer is a simple
'yes'. We did indeed remark on it *but* I think many people here are
greatly overestimating the power wielded by a beta tester. All we
were is just that...testers...we play the game, we report the bugs...
In many cases we did make design suggestions, some of which got
incorportated and some of which didn't. One example: Do you like the
way the city map is color coded so you can tell at a glance which
building is a shop, which is a temple, etc? That color coding was
suggested by one of the testers, and she had to argue long and hard
before it was accepted. ;-) But it did get in and I think it greatly
enhances the game. Other changes we suggested, and often argued bitterly
over, did NOT get in. Oh well.
At one point late in the test process, I walked into temple Dibella and
saw scantily clad people of both genders. Clicking on a female NPC produced
a chat portrait which was clearly nude from the waist up. Clicking on
a *male* NPC produced a portrait of a man *wearing a shirt*. I wrote this
up as a bug and in the next build it was changed, so I don't think that BS
was entirely blind to the issue.
My sense of it is that most of the female testers considered the naked women
all over the place a bit sophomoric...I personally think the nude woman
groveling on the floor of my hotel room was extremely lame and provided NO
'value added' to gameplay. But 'the boys' in the design team must have, at
some adolescent level, thought it was cute. oh well. They did work a lot of
overtime this summer, after all...maybe they just need to get away from their
computers a bit more, heh heh.
I'm not 'pooh-pooh'ing your concerns, really! I share your annoyance at this.
However, especially towards the end of the testing process, we were very much
an example of that old saw which discusses the things you do when you're up to
your ass in alligators, and believe me, we were. If I complained that I saw
a naked woman in my room, just before the game crashed...well YOU know which
of those two statements was going to get the programmers' attention, right?
I will forward this entire message thread to Bethesda and see if they want to
make any official comment, because I do think it's important for them to
be more cognizant of designing less offensive scenes in the future. However,
on the upside, aren't you glad to finally see a game where you don't have
to spend weeks of time trying to rescue some pinhead of a princess?
MJ
The Bishop of Battle
In article <52s6ur$3...@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au>, Elmer Fudd <hig...@physics.uq.oz.au> wrote:
>I actually *like* naked women..!
Who Doesn't!!!!
The Bishop of Battle
bis...@primenet.com
---
kirin
Doesn't really matter since all you can do is talk to them, unlike
Ultima 7 series where you can sometimes do other things... Haven't seen
any hookers yet in DF. They were in Arena and they sometimes had good
info...
Bill Seurer
In article <52rban$1...@news-2.csn.net>, al...@gj.net (Alex) writes:
|>
|> I didn't notice that. I like seeing the nude female form as much as the next guy but
|> why not include some nude guys for the gals as long as they're at it (or eliminate
|> both)? I wouldn't mind seeing more females playing computer games. In fact, I'd
|> like to see my wife play one once in awhile so that I don't feel that I have to
|> justify a $70 purchase whenever I want the latest game. Unfortunately, games seem to
|> be geared toward the juvenile horny-geek and she doesn't like the double-standard any
|> more than the next gal. If they matured just a tad, perhaps Bethesda could be
|> pioneers in gaining a whole new demographic to the RPG world.
|>
|> >Ok, so maybe we don't necessairly *need* to have PC (politicaly
|> >correct) games, but even a token attempt at respect could at least be
|> >made, no?
|>
|> Yes.
I tried starting a female character last night to see the difference. My
wife happened to walk by while I was equipping my character and she even
commented on it.
Later when I went into stores they had all this revealing clothing for the
female characters; it looked like buttons hadn't been invented yet. Some
of the female clothing was just downright stupid: the "formal bra". ?!?!?
--
- Bill Seurer ID Tools and Compiler Development IBM Rochester, MN
Business: BillS...@vnet.ibm.com Home: BillS...@aol.com
WWW: http://members.aol.com/BillSeurer
Petros Christakis
Well, the graphics are so bad, it does not make a difference anyway!!
David Pugh
One question that repeatedly comes to mind after playing Daggerfall only a
little is how did the beta-testers feel about the game UI? My personal
opinion is that it is somewhere between poor and dreadful.
In particular:
Why can't I have a simple button to swing my melee weapon (or 5 buttons,
one for each swing)? I have enough problems with CTS without having to
swing the mouse around. Not to mention that it would let me use the
keyboard for combat: one hand controlling movement, the other attacks.
Why is the "action region" -- where left clicking with the mouse will do
something other than turn or move the character -- so small? I shouldn't
have to jiggle my position just to open a door. Another thing would be --
when I have an aimed spell ready -- to be able to always fire it no matter
where I click the mouse.
Why can't I do fastmove within a town? Let's face it ... if I want to go
from the mage's guild to the temple, I really shouldn't have to spend 5
minutes steering between generic building to get across town.
Is there anyway you can distinguish between the numberpad home and the
editpad home keys? It would make it much easier to control my character if
I could use all of the keys on the right side of my keyboard rather than
about 1/2 of them.
On the rest in town command, there should be a way to tell my character to
practice skill while resting. I shouldn't have to do jumping jacks, run,
climb the walls or swing my sword if I want my character's skill to
improve.
Robert Berryhill
"David Pugh" <dp...@microsoft.com> wrote:
>One question that repeatedly comes to mind after playing Daggerfall only a
>little is how did the beta-testers feel about the game UI? My personal
>opinion is that it is somewhere between poor and dreadful.
I'm not a beta-tester, but I've got to say that the UI in View mode is
*PERFECT*! And if you don't like it, simply configure the keys
however you want. How can you possibly bitch about a UI that will
allow you to reconfigure the keys to whatever choice you want. This
just proves my theory that some people here will bitch about ANYTHING!
X-Signature: Rob
Rob
ind...@bga.com
.
Dick Jarvinen
>Later when I went into stores they had all this revealing clothing for the
>female characters; it looked like buttons hadn't been invented yet. Some
>of the female clothing was just downright stupid: the "formal bra". ?!?!?
>--
>
You never shop at Victoria's Secret?
------------------------------------------------------
jarv...@proaxis.com .
David Pugh
_If_ I could configure the UI anyway I wanted to, I would agree with you.
Unfortunately, I can't. For example, there is no way have your character do
a slash when the CTRL key is pressed: you have to hold a key down and move
the mouse horizontally.
Ditto for the small activation window. Since I don't use the mouse for
moving my character, I really want to be able to click anywhere on the
screen to open a door, cast an aimed spell, etc. ... not just in the center
25% of the screen.
Robert Berryhill <ind...@bga.com> wrote in article
<52v0fe$10...@news3.realtime.net>...
>.... And if you don't like it, simply configure the keys
> however you want. How can you possibly bitch about a UI that will
> allow you to reconfigure the keys to whatever choice you want. ....
Sarah Ettritch
In article <52tojn$u...@news.rchland.ibm.com>,
seu...@nordruth.rchland.ibm.com says...
>Later when I went into stores they had all this revealing clothing for
the
>female characters; it looked like buttons hadn't been invented yet. Some
>of the female clothing was just downright stupid: the "formal bra".
Perhaps it's meant to be used as a double-barrelled slingshot? ;)
Sarah.
Brian Rauchfuss - PCD
In article <52ik68$8...@mds2.mastnet.net>, <mer...@mastnet.net> wrote:
>fighter/magician/thief/schmmozer. I would pit her against any of the
>male characters in this game. Must all other women in the game besides
>my character be protrayed as big-boobied bimbos waiting for a man to
>come along and save/pickpocket/fuck her?
At least half of the fighters/spell-swords/battle-mages/etc that you meet
are female, and can be very tough too. Of course, they all seem to have
a tendency to leave their sternum unarmored, for some strange reason...
Brian
Twinkster
Joshua Io (po...@tiac.net) wrote:
: The original poster didn't present her position as one based on the
: political views of NOW. And she didn't object to the simple depiction
: of nudity; rather, she objected to the depiction of nudity of only one
: sex--a depiction she believed gratuitous and which certainly, at the
: least, demonstrated a choice by the programmers to portray only one
: sex. The question, then, is why did the programmers choose to portray
: only that one sex in that manner?
Errrr the loin cothed men in the temple are of roughly
equaivalent nudness =]. I agree the postions are not
a suductive ... but to say that males are not nune in
DF is a misnomer.
-Terry
Twinkster
Twinkster (ter...@Sun.COM) wrote:
Oppss pardon me - there is no bare assed men,
my mistake. we have partital frontal nudity in
both males and females, but suductive postions
and bare asses in females ... my mistake =]
ok close to equivalent in type but no where near balanced
in quantity.
-Terry
slink
> In article <52rban$1...@news-2.csn.net>, al...@gj.net (Alex) writes:
> I tried starting a female character last night to see the difference. My
> wife happened to walk by while I was equipping my character and she even
> commented on it.
>
> female characters; it looked like buttons hadn't been invented yet. Some
> --
>
> - Bill Seurer ID Tools and Compiler Development IBM Rochester, MN
> Business: BillS...@vnet.ibm.com Home: BillS...@aol.com
> WWW: http://members.aol.com/BillSeurer
Have you looked at any real female clothing lately? Some of it _is_
pretty stupid. And what's so smart about ties? I enjoy dressing up
my female character. I don't know if the clothing you wear makes a
difference in the interactions, but it ought to. Like wearing formal
clothing to visit royalty instead of sweaty leathers. And yes, like
wearing a "formal bra" into a store run by an old man.
Sandra
C. Ben Boyle
So you don't like a planet with any nude people on it, but it's ok to hack
innocent folks to bloody ribbons? Oh, boy, what a wonder of modern
pseudointellect. You watch a *lot* of tv, don't you?
If you don't like it, hit the "childguard" switch for overly sensitive twits.
That's what it's there for.
Just to register *my* vote, DF isn't nearly controversial enough to
warrant a switch, let alone any outrage (or interest on that front,
although it is otherwise interesting). The violence is fairly sanitized,
and the "sexism" consists of pixellated breasts. Big deal.
The game does not, in any way, encourage or reward victimization of women,
unlike the majority of the socially acceptable mass culture of modern
America.
If you're going to bitch about something, you could find more in almost
any movie or tv show out of the corporate media machine.
That people suck down the harmful crap of other electronic media (which
sensationalizes violent crimes and sex crimes) yet pick on something as
stupid as titty pixels implies nothing good about their comprehension or
analysis.
Yes, to be consistent, it *should* have roughly as many men as women
scantily clad. Does it surprise anyone? I hope not. Does it matter?
probably not.
Sexism is a very real problem, and it's a shame to trivialize it with such
a poor example.
My suggestion to Bethesda would be to add a couple chippendales to balance
it out. And to go out on *more* limbs, not fewer. It's pretty damn
harmless at the moment. I'd rather it were more controversial, although
it should be in an approximate gender balance.
How about it, Bethesda; a nude guys patch? I may not install it, but I'd
be impressed and amused. The current game is not even PG-13, and only
slightly biased (in the same sense as the prevailing society, fwliw).
b
____________________________________________________________________
Space Physics & Astronomy, Rice University
P.O. Box 1892, Houston TX 77251 ph:(713)527-8750x2653
fax: 713-285-5143 WWW: http://space.rice.edu/~boyle/
____________________________________________________________________
My nightmares have become daydreams
jarvinen
>Have you looked at any real female clothing lately? Some of it _is_
>pretty stupid. And what's so smart about ties? I enjoy dressing up
>my female character. I don't know if the clothing you wear makes a
>difference in the interactions, but it ought to. Like wearing formal
>wearing a "formal bra" into a store run by an old man.
>
>Sandra
>
Do you mean in real life or just in Daggerfall?
Dick
------------------------------------------------------
jarv...@proaxis.com
<Your Name>
In article <boyle-08109...@atreides.rice.edu>, bo...@spacsun.rice.edu (C. Ben Boyle) says:
>
>So you don't like a planet with any nude people on it, but it's ok to hack
>innocent folks to bloody ribbons?
--------(snip)--------
You morons are really pissing me off. If you would have READ my
original post and taken the minut-est fraction of a second to
try to understand what I was saying, then your stupid comment above
would have never entered your pin head. I *never* said anything
like your quote above. I said, now listen carefully, that it has
NO PLACE in-this-game! Whereas, blood and guts DO have a place
in-this-game! Do You Understand Now What I Am Saying!!!
>If you don't like it, hit the "childguard" switch for overly sensitive twits.
>
>That's what it's there for.
-------(more snip)--------
Yes, my little friend, again if you would have READ my original post
with any comprehension whatsoever, you would have realized that I
know very well that there is a childguard switch but do not wish to
implement it because it also reduces (it is my understanding) the
aforementioned blood and guts.
>
>The game does not, in any way, encourage or reward victimization of women,
---------(more snipping)----------
No, it just shows them sitting and crouching on the floor like dogs.
For what purpose?? NONE!
>My suggestion to Bethesda would be to add a couple chippendales to balance
>it out.
-----------(just a bit more)---------
Yes it quite figures that this would be your suggestion.
Gayle
gfis...@indyvax.iupui.edu
Desslock
@iusd.iupui.edu () wrote:
>
> In article <boyle-08109...@atreides.rice.edu>, bo...@spacsun.rice.edu (C. Ben Boyle) says:
> >
> >So you don't like a planet with any nude people on it, but it's ok to hack
> >innocent folks to bloody ribbons?
>
> --------(snip)--------
>
> You morons are really pissing me off. If you would have READ my
> original post and taken the minut-est fraction of a second to
> try to understand what I was saying, then your stupid comment above
> would have never entered your pin head. I *never* said anything
> like your quote above. I said, now listen carefully, that it has
> NO PLACE in-this-game! Whereas, blood and guts DO have a place
> in-this-game! Do You Understand Now What I Am Saying!!!
>
> >If you don't like it, hit the "childguard" switch for overly sensitive twits.
> >
> >That's what it's there for.
>
> -------(more snip)--------
>
> >The game does not, in any way, encourage or reward victimization of women,
>
> ---------(more snipping)----------
>
--
Calm down
Your obnoxious response ain't doing wonders to spread understanding.
Gee, I wonder why he couldn't find your original post when there's 700
messages a day and your original post was a couple of weeks ago?
More blood & guts.
Great.
Be afraid of childish displays of nudity and sexually suggestive
behaviour, but gleefully embrace displays of violence, torture and
death. Too funny.
But hey, you can always get a job at the Canadian censor board, you seem
to share their "enlightened" sensibilities.
G. Fischer
>*Calm down
-------------------(snip)-------------------
>*..... childish displays of nudity and sexually suggestive
>*behaviour,
Noowww you're getting the point. Took you long enough.
Gayle
gfis...@indyvax.iupui.edu
Desslock
G. Fischer wrote:
>
> >*Calm down
>
> -------------------(snip)-------------------
>
>
> Noowww you're getting the point. Took you long enough.
>
>
--
Whatever.
It would, however, be interesting to hear you respond to the point of my
post(s), instead of <snipping> out of context.
C. Ben Boyle
> @iusd.iupui.edu () wrote:
> >
> > In article <boyle-08109...@atreides.rice.edu>,
bo...@spacsun.rice.edu (C. Ben Boyle) says:
> > >
> > >So you don't like a planet with any nude people on it, but it's ok to hack
> > >innocent folks to bloody ribbons?
> >
> > --------(snip)--------
> >
> > You morons are really pissing me off. If you would have READ my
> > original post and taken the minut-est fraction of a second to
the original post was *not* the one I was responding to, but to a followon
in the thread. As you *might* have figured out, in-order delivery isn't
one of usenet's strengths. Nor is the original post usually the sum of the
contents of the thread, although you may delude yourself otherwise.
On the other hand, apparently there *are* some questionable bits that I
simply haven't run across yet. With that in mind, I cancelled my post,
but, of course, it's usenet...Several helpful (ie not the excitable twink
quoted above) netters have posted very specific examples, that I'd have to
agree are pretty negative.
However, I don't think sanitizing the game is the answer, either. More
balance, IMHO, would be a big step in the right direction, although not a
complete soln.
Hugh Smith
David Pugh wrote:
>
> One question that repeatedly comes to mind after playing Daggerfall only a
> little is how did the beta-testers feel about the game UI? My personal
> opinion is that it is somewhere between poor and dreadful.
>
> Why can't I do fastmove within a town? Let's face it ... if I want to go
> from the mage's guild to the temple, I really shouldn't have to spend 5
> minutes steering between generic building to get across town.
>
This one really gets me. Wandering thru town gets boring and really
takes away from the game. Make it so you can only fast-move to
buildings you've already been to.
Todd.
Jack F. Vogel
uglm...@cc.memphis.edu (Greg Miller) wrote:
>bo...@spacsun.rice.edu (C. Ben Boyle) wrote:
>
>>Well, I admit, it's *not* a particularly clever or novel solution, but it
>>seems to at least address one of the issues. Right now, DF treats men
>>very differently than women. To me, that's one of the essential
>>components of perpetuating gender bias problems. In particular, it has
>>(they say) nude nymphs you pretty much have to hack/blast, but not men,
>>and only women are found half dressed in the towns (gfischer (?) points
>>out they are crouched on the floor for no apparent reason). These are the
>>only two I've seen/heard of, but there may be more. At any rate, it would
>>be impossible to imbed gender biased information without treating the
>>genders differently. So, to say that it ought to at a minimum be balanced
>>seems pretty straightforward.
>
>You really do have a psychological problem with nudity, don't you?
>Geez. There are nude men in the game--but no visible genitalia for
>either sex.
Ya, those 'whiners' must never have played Ultima7pt2 :-). Ah yes,
I wish they had put in an option to flirt :-) :-)...
--
Jack F. Vogel SunSoft Solaris OS Engineering ja...@sun.com
Greg Miller
bo...@spacsun.rice.edu (C. Ben Boyle) wrote:
>Well, I admit, it's *not* a particularly clever or novel solution, but it
>seems to at least address one of the issues. Right now, DF treats men
>very differently than women. To me, that's one of the essential
>components of perpetuating gender bias problems. In particular, it has
>(they say) nude nymphs you pretty much have to hack/blast, but not men,
>and only women are found half dressed in the towns (gfischer (?) points
>out they are crouched on the floor for no apparent reason). These are the
>only two I've seen/heard of, but there may be more. At any rate, it would
>be impossible to imbed gender biased information without treating the
>genders differently. So, to say that it ought to at a minimum be balanced
>seems pretty straightforward.
You really do have a psychological problem with nudity, don't you?
Geez. There are nude men in the game--but no visible genitalia for
either sex.
>If you have something more insightful, let's hear it.
>At the risk of departing back into another subthread, I don't at all agree
>with the <whoever> said that violence has a place here and nudity
>doesn't. But I would like to hear some specific and clever solutions, if
>you have any.
Well, the people complaining could try growing up and becoming mature
adults--that would be something new.
ROTSEL
easily offend ? like to force your opinons on others? join a network chat
group today!!!!!
ROTSEL
.....hint - people put naked women in products because there is a market
for it.......
Demonizing men - is that the counter for "victimizing women"? WHERE IS MY
DAMN HORNS AND TAILS????????
euclid
slink <sl...@netins.net> wrote:
:> In article <52rban$1...@news-2.csn.net>, al...@gj.net (Alex) writes:
:> I tried starting a female character last night to see the difference. My
:> wife happened to walk by while I was equipping my character and she even
:> commented on it.
:>
:> Later when I went into stores they had all this revealing clothing for the
:> female characters; it looked like buttons hadn't been invented yet. Some
:> of the female clothing was just downright stupid: the "formal bra". ?!?!?
:> --
:>
:> - Bill Seurer ID Tools and Compiler Development IBM Rochester, MN
:> Business: BillS...@vnet.ibm.com Home: BillS...@aol.com
:> WWW: http://members.aol.com/BillSeurer
:Have you looked at any real female clothing lately? Some of it _is_
:pretty stupid. And what's so smart about ties? I enjoy dressing up
:my female character. I don't know if the clothing you wear makes a
:difference in the interactions, but it ought to. Like wearing formal
:clothing to visit royalty instead of sweaty leathers. And yes, like
:wearing a "formal bra" into a store run by an old man.
:Sandra
You mean the way women are depicted in Daggerfall isn't
the way women are normally?
Jim Husband
euclid wrote:
>:Have you looked at any real female clothing lately? Some of it _is_
>:pretty stupid. And what's so smart about ties? I enjoy dressing up
>:my female character. I don't know if the clothing you wear makes a
>:difference in the interactions, but it ought to. Like wearing formal
>:clothing to visit royalty instead of sweaty leathers. And yes, like
>:wearing a "formal bra" into a store run by an old man.
>
>:Sandra
>
>You mean the way women are depicted in Daggerfall isn't
>the way women are normally?
>
>
don't piss off the handful of women in this newsgroup. They notice
things that everyone else seems to miss (self included). The comments
/ stories / etc on DF have been nearly as entertaining as the game
itself. I suspect it's terribly boring to someone not playing the
game. Hehehe - too bad.
Yama