Why no Shadowrun CRPGs?
Dave Thomas
FASA Interactive to Microsoft seems to have killed it, as well as
killing the Virtual World centers around the US (well, actually, FASA
Interactive managed to kill those themselves before the sale, I
suppose).
Other than AD&D games, there don't seem to be a lot of games based
upon paper RPGs. I guess it's because outside of AD&D, there isn't a
huge "brand awareness" of the game names.
Dave Thomas - Editor
Pixel Planet - Reviews Of Stuff
http://www.pixelplanet.com
Chris
Werewolf etc), why is it no developer have snapped up the rights to
this system?
I remember the Genesis Shadowrun fondly, which was a
Adventure/RPG/Action hybrid with a bit of strategy thrown in as well
(Matrix sequences). I felt the game captured the gritty feel of the
game world quite well. So why have there, to my knowledge, been no
Shadowrun games on the PC?
It has a rich game world and obvious choices for character classes
(hacker, shaman etc), as well as combining the best elements of
fantasy and sci-fi.
Publishers take note: a Shadowrun game pls!
infoghost
I have asked this question a million times...there is so much to draw from,
an untapped well of ideas a developer can use.
I've played a few games that make me think - hey, that's from SR. Why no
official SR game?
ig
"Chris" <matr...@mailandnews.com> wrote in message
news:3862474d...@news.singa.pore.net...
Steve Kostoff
Chris wrote in message <3862474d...@news.singa.pore.net>...
>With a whole host of licensed properties coming out (AD&D, Vampire,
>Werewolf etc), why is it no developer have snapped up the rights to
>this system?
Because for a cyberpunk game, the Shadowrun setting is the worst out there?
I could never take Shadowrun seriously. There were so many better cyberpunk
settings and RPGs, like RTG's Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0, or ICE's cyberpunk game, or
GURPS' cyberpunk supplements (seized by the Feds as a "real handbook on
computer crime" - how's that for cred? ;-). That mixing of high fantasy
things with a cyberpunk theme completely nullified the essence of
cyberpunk - the social commentary, the warning of a very real cyberpunk
future (some may say it's already upon us), and so on. Gah.
Fortunately, there are some great cyberpunk and cyberpunk-esque games out
there, like the System Shock series. And Deus Ex will be out before too
long - that's c-punk if I am not mistaken.
Steve Kostoff
infoghost
differently. There are vast ammounts of SR resources to be found, and it has
a loyal fan base.
System shock 2 is nothing like shadowrun - at the very worst, it takes ideas
shadowrun had already established.
The point is, most of those games owe an incredible debt to shadowrun, and
fall short, pale imitations. Not that there hasn't been any other good
games, don't get me wrong. I just long for a true shadowrun game.
ig
"Steve Kostoff" <j.s.k...@larc.nasa.gov> wrote in message
news:83tumt$h1j$1...@reznor.larc.nasa.gov...
Steve Kostoff
infoghost wrote in message ...
>That may be your take, but there are quite a few of us who think
>differently. There are vast ammounts of SR resources to be found, and it
has
>a loyal fan base.
>
>System shock 2 is nothing like shadowrun - at the very worst, it takes
ideas
>shadowrun had already established.
>
I agree to disagree on most of this, it's a YMMV thing I guess, but I
strongly disagree that it borrows ideas from shadowrun. Borrows ideas from
cyberpunk literature, like Neuromancer, yes; from Shadowrun, no way. SR is
highly - highly - derivative of cyberpunk literature and its only real
originality lies in mixing the fantasy and cyberpunk genres.
Steve Kostoff
Quatoria (Blah blah blah blah blah)
"Steve Kostoff" <j.s.k...@larc.nasa.gov> wrote:
>I could never take Shadowrun seriously. There were so many better cyberpunk
>settings and RPGs, like RTG's Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0, or ICE's cyberpunk game, or
You couldn't take Shadowrun seriously, but you could take ICE'S
cyberpunk game seriously, with cybernetic moles that lived in people's
chests or cybernetic snakes that dwelled in arms? Those you could take
seriously? C'mon, Steve. ;)
Quatoria
--
In the pursuit of knowledge,
every day something is added.
In the practice of Tao,
every day something is dropped.
Less and less do you need to force things,
until finally you arrive at non-action.
When nothing is done,
nothing is left un-done.
-Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching
infoghost
what...orginality is hard to come by nowadays....the original poster
commented on the lack of SR games, and I agree.
I enjoyed SS2 to a point, until it started feeling like a FPS.
Thanks for sharing your opinion in an intelligent manner. That's also rare
nowadays :)
iG
"Steve Kostoff" <j.s.k...@larc.nasa.gov> wrote in message
news:83u1tk$ikl$1...@reznor.larc.nasa.gov...
Adamaant
similar, or septerra core, or other anime types. Shadowrun had the
mixture of Corporate states/Cyber punk themes/Computer technology, and
magic and sorcery. Tell me if I am wrong, but those might be a close
bet for you.
On Thu, 23 Dec 1999 16:10:08 GMT, matr...@mailandnews.com (Chris)
wrote:
>With a whole host of licensed properties coming out (AD&D, Vampire,
>Werewolf etc), why is it no developer have snapped up the rights to
>this system?
>
Steve Kostoff
Quatoria (Blah blah blah blah blah) <Quat...@bellsouth.net> wrote in
message news:FpJiOAF0Ygw2tv9=BLxSwf...@4ax.com...
> In the swirling mists of history, on Thu, 23 Dec 1999 14:57:08 -0500,
> "Steve Kostoff" <j.s.k...@larc.nasa.gov> wrote:
>
> >I could never take Shadowrun seriously. There were so many better
cyberpunk
> >settings and RPGs, like RTG's Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0, or ICE's cyberpunk game,
or
>
> You couldn't take Shadowrun seriously, but you could take ICE'S
> cyberpunk game seriously, with cybernetic moles that lived in people's
> chests or cybernetic snakes that dwelled in arms? Those you could take
> seriously? C'mon, Steve. ;)
>
Hell, yeah! Ain't it cool? You know that cybernetic snake (better described
as a rotorooter) implanted in the throat is right out of Walter John
Williams' "Hardwired."
Steve Kostoff
Peacedog1
>Fortunately, there are some great cyberpunk and cyberpunk-esque games out
>there, like the System Shock series. And Deus Ex will be out before too
>long - that's c-punk if I am not mistaken.
Well, its semi-futuristic paranoid insanity, so I think we can count that :|
(note the conformist smiley so as not to draw attention to myself...drat, too
late).
C-punk seems like a large wealth of ideas that a CRPG could draw on for
inspiration. I played the SNES (or was it NES?) Shadow Run game, but I got
stuck towards the end and got really frustrated. Wow, that was 10ish years
ago. I count all the times I walloped the Mother Brain (SNES and NES) as
payback.
Dazza
I agree....The "Steampunk" genre of japanese rpgs are far superior to
the shadowrun games.(BTW- i did enjoy both snes and sega versions of SR)
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Emuboy
Mad Aardvark of Doom
wrote:
>I don't know too much about shadowrun, but isn't final fantasy
>similar, or septerra core, or other anime types. Shadowrun had the
>mixture of Corporate states/Cyber punk themes/Computer technology, and
>magic and sorcery. Tell me if I am wrong, but those might be a close
>bet for you.
>
Console style(for lack of a better term)RPGs generally concentrate on
telling one well-focused story. They simply don't have the
open-endedness(sp?) of PC RPGs or PnP role-playing systems. Now I
happen to love both, but a lot of people get riled up when you confuse
one with the other.
--
Mad Aardvark of Doom(Formerly Poster Formerly Known as Guyver3)
Nifty new name. Same old spam-trap Netaddress account.
Travis Hamer
Dave Thomas wrote in message <38601221...@nntp1.ba.best.com>...
Yeah,
It's really a shame, too. I'd love to see a Deadlands CRPG, or Legend
of the Five Rings. How about a Fading Suns CRPG, aside from the strat games.
PnP systems have variety in spades, I wish the Computer developers would
take a hint. Not that I'm not going to buy and play all the ADnD computer
games coming out, I'd just like to see some fresh settings.
Travis
Steve Kostoff
Travis Hamer <tr...@bobcats.net> wrote in message
news:s683h7...@corp.supernews.com...
<snip>
> It's really a shame, too. I'd love to see a Deadlands CRPG, or Legend
> of the Five Rings. How about a Fading Suns CRPG, aside from the strat
games.
> PnP systems have variety in spades, I wish the Computer developers would
> take a hint. Not that I'm not going to buy and play all the ADnD computer
> games coming out, I'd just like to see some fresh settings.
Now Deadlands would make an Ubercool CRPG. I love that game - I miss playing
it since our Deadlands PnP group broke up just over a year ago. Definitely
one of the most original designs I've seen for an RPG.
Steve Kostoff
Knight37
>
>Chris wrote in message <3862474d...@news.singa.pore.net>...
>>With a whole host of licensed properties coming out (AD&D, Vampire,
>>Werewolf etc), why is it no developer have snapped up the rights to
>>this system?
>
>
>Because for a cyberpunk game, the Shadowrun setting is the worst out
>there?
I wouldn't rate Shadowrun as a first-rate CYBERPUNK game, but it's definitely a
first-rate game setting. It's not pure cyberpunk, it's something unique. It's
got it's own flavor, it's own style, and it's simply not something you can
really get anywhere else. And you can't just throw a bunch of orcs and elves
and magic into a cyberpunk setting and get Shadowrun. FASA has done a lot to
make the world of Shadowrun unique, and I for one can appreciate it.
Now for True Cyberpunk, you just can't get any better than R Tal's Cyberpunk
2.0.2.0. I mean, THIS is a cyberpunk game. :)
>I could never take Shadowrun seriously. There were so many better
>cyberpunk settings and RPGs, like RTG's Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0, or ICE's
>cyberpunk game, or GURPS' cyberpunk supplements (seized by the Feds
>as a "real handbook on computer crime" - how's that for cred? ;-).
ICE's cyberpunk game wasn't all that great but I did borrow a few ideas from it
for my setting. It had a more realistic timeline than R Tal's. BURPS Cyberpunk
was just plain boring. It had all the right mechanics but no style or attitude.
Nothing to put the PUNK in Cyberpunk.
>That mixing of high fantasy things with a cyberpunk theme completely
>nullified the essence of cyberpunk - the social commentary, the
>warning of a very real cyberpunk future (some may say it's already
>upon us), and so on. Gah.
Right. But that doesn't make Shadowrun a BAD GAME. It just makes it NOT
Cyberpunk. It's still a wonderful game setting, and it's a blast. Just don't go
looking for a cyberpunk fix there. Although I do have to say they did a really
good job with the Riggers. The Rigger from SR is very much like *THE* Rigger,
Cowboy from _Hardwired_. The Banshee VTOLs are straight copies of the Panzers
from _Hardwired_.
>Fortunately, there are some great cyberpunk and cyberpunk-esque
>games out there, like the System Shock series. And Deus Ex will be
>out before too long - that's c-punk if I am not mistaken.
SShock is cyberpunk lite. I am waiting for someone to do a REAL cyberpunk CRPG.
I want solos, I want riggers, I want deckers, I want rockerboys, I want
cybercops, I want corporate sleezes, I want poser gangs, I want go-gangs, I
want big corps with evil agendas! Not since the Neuromancer PC game have we had
a good cyberpunk game, and it was strictly centered on the decker. There's so
much MORE to cyberpunk!
--
Knight37
"Now at this point we could warn potential Referees that their players will
tend to try and create powerful characters, but we won't. You're all big boys
and girls now. If you're players want to make mondo characters, who are we to
stop them? And if later, you as a Referee, feel that things are starting to get
out of line, why not just go ahead and waste em? That's the Cyberpunk Way."
-- Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0. Rulebook [paraphrased]
Steve Kostoff
Knight37 <knig...@gamespotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8EA954C2Fknigh...@209.30.0.14...
> j.s.k...@larc.nasa.gov (Steve Kostoff) wrote:
>
> >
<snip>
> Now for True Cyberpunk, you just can't get any better than R Tal's
Cyberpunk
> 2.0.2.0. I mean, THIS is a cyberpunk game. :)
Agree - excellent, excellent RPG. Unfortunately, my days of PnP rpging are
largely past, and I didn't keep up with the series after 2.0.2.0. I know a
sequel game was released that was set one generation later, and featured
nanotechnology heavily, but I never saw it. Do you know if it's any good?
The one change in 2.0.2.0 from the first edition that I didn't like was the
way Friday Night Firefight was redone. The original FNFF was much better,
IMHO.
> >I could never take Shadowrun seriously. There were so many better
> >cyberpunk settings and RPGs, like RTG's Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0, or ICE's
> >cyberpunk game, or GURPS' cyberpunk supplements (seized by the Feds
> >as a "real handbook on computer crime" - how's that for cred? ;-).
>
> ICE's cyberpunk game wasn't all that great but I did borrow a few ideas
from it
> for my setting. It had a more realistic timeline than R Tal's. BURPS
Cyberpunk
> was just plain boring. It had all the right mechanics but no style or
attitude.
> Nothing to put the PUNK in Cyberpunk.
The mechanics of ICE's game were inferior to the others mentioned, but I did
like the storyline a lot (and used it as source material back in the day).
As far as GURPS go, just having good, solid rules for it was enough for me -
you can always hijack the settings from the other games and apply GURPS
rules to them :).
> >That mixing of high fantasy things with a cyberpunk theme completely
> >nullified the essence of cyberpunk - the social commentary, the
> >warning of a very real cyberpunk future (some may say it's already
> >upon us), and so on. Gah.
>
> Right. But that doesn't make Shadowrun a BAD GAME. It just makes it NOT
> Cyberpunk. It's still a wonderful game setting, and it's a blast. Just
don't go
> looking for a cyberpunk fix there. Although I do have to say they did a
really
> good job with the Riggers. The Rigger from SR is very much like *THE*
Rigger,
Ok, I guess I would agree with you on this. I looked at Shadowrun from the
c-punk angle and that's why I didn't like it. Perhaps if I didn't, I would
have liked it more - it's a fair assessment I think.
> Cowboy from _Hardwired_. The Banshee VTOLs are straight copies of the
Panzers
> from _Hardwired_.
Did you get the Hardwired sourcebook for R.Tal's cyberpunk game? I wonder if
it is still in print - I still have my copy, it's fantastic.
> >Fortunately, there are some great cyberpunk and cyberpunk-esque
> >games out there, like the System Shock series. And Deus Ex will be
> >out before too long - that's c-punk if I am not mistaken.
>
> SShock is cyberpunk lite. I am waiting for someone to do a REAL cyberpunk
CRPG.
Well SShock is definitely set in a cyberpunk world, but the focus of the
action of course is away from the dire streets. A new SShock game set on
Earth in some megacity would be a great idea... (Irrational? LG? How 'bout
it? :-)
> I want solos, I want riggers, I want deckers, I want rockerboys, I want
> cybercops, I want corporate sleezes, I want poser gangs, I want go-gangs,
I
> want big corps with evil agendas! Not since the Neuromancer PC game have
we had
> a good cyberpunk game, and it was strictly centered on the decker. There's
so
> much MORE to cyberpunk!
>
Absolutely! And - we especially need poser gangs. Although to have really
cool poser gangs, a developer may have to be a lot of money in licensing
fees ... RTal's game had some insanely cool poser gangs, like the Bradys
(everyone looks like one of the Brady Bunch) or the Kennedys (all the men
look like one of the Kennedys and all the women like Jackie O. and MM)...
> "Now at this point we could warn potential Referees that their players
will
> tend to try and create powerful characters, but we won't. You're all big
boys
> and girls now. If you're players want to make mondo characters, who are we
to
> stop them? And if later, you as a Referee, feel that things are starting
to get
> out of line, why not just go ahead and waste em? That's the Cyberpunk
Way."
> -- Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0. Rulebook [paraphrased]
*Evil chuckle*
That rulebook just oozes attitude and style. There was some other quote
about the setting, to the effect of "This is cyberpunk; there are no sunny
meadows and happy elves. It always rains, the sun never shines, the kids are
grown in vats, and the last bird died in 2008." Then at the bottom of the
page, "Ok, we are exaggerating. But not much."
Heh heh
Steve Kostoff
Hakan
Shadowrun game, that Microsoft were going to develop(!).
But they cancelled it(?) because "there are so many similar
games coming out" (or something like that). Hmm... wonder
wich games they were thinking about.
* Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping. Smart is Beautiful
Knight37
CP2020:
>Agree - excellent, excellent RPG. Unfortunately, my days of PnP
>rpging are largely past, and I didn't keep up with the series after
>2.0.2.0. I know a sequel game was released that was set one
>generation later, and featured nanotechnology heavily, but I never
>saw it. Do you know if it's any good?
CyberGeneration. It's not really true cyberpunk in my opinion. It has
too much silver lining under that storm cloud. Too much hope for a
better future. That's actually the main problem with Shadow Run's take
on Cyberpunk. it has the cyber, it has the punk, but it's not really
cyberpunk because it doesn't follow the dystopian formula.
But my main problem with it is, because of the time it is set, you must
play a child character to use any of then new "cybergeneration"
abilities. You could play a burned-out, old-school cyberpunk, but the
new kids on the block won't want to hang with your character.
>The one change in 2.0.2.0 from the first edition that I didn't like
>was the way Friday Night Firefight was redone. The original FNFF was
>much better, IMHO.
Even the CP2020 FNFF rules are wack. I had to customize them greatly.
Of course, I've done that to just about every game I ever played.
>The mechanics of ICE's game were inferior to the others mentioned,
>but I did like the storyline a lot (and used it as source material
>back in the day).
Some of their source material was quite good. I borrowed some of thier
megacorps ("Serendipity: Where good things just happen!", "Information
Services: Whatever IS, IS Knows") and some of their go-gangs and poser
gangs were cool. The Chicago Arcology sourcebook is pretty neat.
>As far as GURPS go, just having good, solid rules for it was enough
>for me - you can always hijack the settings from the other games and
>apply GURPS rules to them :).
You could do that, but rules were never important enough for me to
bother with all that. Besides, R Tal's system wasn't *bad*.
>Did you get the Hardwired sourcebook for R.Tal's cyberpunk game? I
>wonder if it is still in print - I still have my copy, it's
>fantastic.
I have it. It's a pretty good sourcebook, and the novel is fantastic.
What I'd like to see is a game based on Stephenson's Snow Crash.
>> SShock is cyberpunk lite. I am waiting for someone to do a REAL
>> cyberpunk CRPG.
>
>Well SShock is definitely set in a cyberpunk world, but the focus of
>the action of course is away from the dire streets. A new SShock
>game set on Earth in some megacity would be a great idea...
>(Irrational? LG? How 'bout it? :-)
I'd actually prefer a game that used Fallout's engine but using a
cyberpunk setting. I'd like to have a party, not just one character.
It would be cool to have the matrix be first person, tho.
>> I want solos, I want riggers, I want deckers, I want rockerboys, I
>> want cybercops, I want corporate sleezes, I want poser gangs, I
>> want go-gangs, I want big corps with evil agendas!
>Absolutely! And - we especially need poser gangs. Although to have
>really cool poser gangs, a developer may have to be a lot of money
>in licensing fees ... RTal's game had some insanely cool poser
>gangs, like the Bradys (everyone looks like one of the Brady Bunch)
>or the Kennedys (all the men look like one of the Kennedys and all
>the women like Jackie O. and MM)...
Oh yeah. Gotta have that. It's a staple of the genre.
>> -- Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0. Rulebook [paraphrased]
>
>*Evil chuckle*
>
>That rulebook just oozes attitude and style. There was some other
>quote about the setting, to the effect of "This is cyberpunk; there
>are no sunny meadows and happy elves. It always rains, the sun never
>shines, the kids are grown in vats, and the last bird died in 2008."
>Then at the bottom of the page, "Ok, we are exaggerating. But not
>much."
Heh. Yes, it's a fantastic rulebook to read. It's entertaining and
informative. Fun for the whole family!
--
Knight37
"This is your life.
Good to the last drop.
Doesn't get any better than this.
This is your life,
and it's ending one minute at a time." -- Tyler Durden