CRPG Controls
Alexander Kim
to present MY own views on the controls of these games...
Games which present a first person viewpoint(Ultima Underworld Series,
Might and Magic, Lands of Lore, Ravenloft, etc...) seem to have one defect
in the method of control...this due to TOO much dependence on the MOUSE.
Moving the party around using the mouse, pressing the attack button with
the mouse, pressing the 'CAST' button with the mouse, throwing items using
the mouse, using potions/healing salves via the mouse, etc.....WAY TOO
dependent. In RL, most of us have TWO arms, and LEGS also...so why do
these games come with controls for a one handed person? OK, so some do
come with Keyboard controls...BUT, using the numeric pad for movement is
also a poor idea...look where the numeric key pad is...right next to the
mouse...I only have one RIGHT hand...Unless I was left handed(using the
mouse with the left hand), I would have to change my right hand from the
numeric pad to the mouse and back again...And during combat, my mouse is
flying across the screen trying to press the correct buttons...
So what do I propose? Well, just a few years ago, we did have some
excellent rpg's and no mouse...lets incorporate these back into the games.
First, study the keyboard...most of us have the 101 keypad...lets use :
Q W E
A S D section of the keyboard for Movement control, as well as the num.
Z X C
This way, I can control movement with my left hand while use the mouse
with my right.
If they continue to give us Realtime Combat, give us the players easy
access to control the 3 - 4 character party by doing the following:
Use the Function keys on top of the Keyboard...notice they are divided
into groups of four...May I suggest...
F1 - F4 = First Character Control buttons (Attack/Cast/Defend/Use)
F5 - F8 = Second Character Control buttons
F9 - F12 = Third Character Control buttons
Or,
F1 - F4 = Attack buttons for each of the Characters(First/Second/Third/Forth)
F5 - F8 = Cast buttons for each of the Characters
F9 - F12 = Use buttons for each of the Characters
Easily accessible, allows ONE person in front of the computer to control a
group of characters in fast realtime combat...more realism I believe.
Also, bring about a "Pause" option, so we can stop the brutal attacks and
study the situation...I know it is not very 'Realtime' but, again, It is
One brain trying to control a group of characters...
I don't think adding these controls to games is asking too much...just a
few more lines to the codes...or give us editable Keypad commands...some
Flightsims as well as other games allow this, why not rpg's?
Either give us better controls for realtime combat or give us back our
turn based...or give us an option in the game itself...
One of the worst control of a game is Arena in my opinion...The combat
using the mouse was a neat idea, but does EVERYTHING had to be done with a
mouse? I mean is that one character in the game have only one arm? And
while swinging a sword, why can't he just run or move back at the same
time? Most games I have mentioned have the same problem, but Arena gets a
special flame due to the fact that the Path and Attack is SO Mouse
dependent...as well as all other controls.
I almost wish Zenith never invented the mouse...almost ;)
Just my opinion, you don't have to agree with me...but you're wrong!
- devil
Marc Lewis
[deletia]
: So what do I propose? Well, just a few years ago, we did have some
: excellent rpg's and no mouse...lets incorporate these back into the games.
: First, study the keyboard...most of us have the 101 keypad...lets use :
: Q W E
: A S D section of the keyboard for Movement control, as well as the num.
: Z X C
: This way, I can control movement with my left hand while use the mouse
: with my right.
Now you've alienated the left-handed mouse users... The keyboard movement
keys should be user defined ala Doom, Wolfenstein, et al.
Other than this one point I agree completely with your posted controls.
Marc
--
Marc Lewis mle...@pafosu1.hq.af.mil mle...@safmon1.hq.af.mil
Joel: "What do you want for Christmas?" \ "Peace is highly overrated"
Crow: "I wanna decide who lives and who dies!" \ - General Katana
'Only a lunatic would think the above statements are my employers opinions.'
Alexander Kim
alienated lefthanders...NOT...I did not say get rid of the num.key
movement controls...just add the one for us righthanders.
Right now, the Lefthanded people have a better way to control rpg's then
righthanded people...It is quite odd isn't it?
st...@rosie.uh.edu
for direction control. I guess Origin's the only company who's thought about
using both mouse and keyboard at the same time.
Dave Ripton
>
>Games which present a first person viewpoint(Ultima Underworld Series,
>Might and Magic, Lands of Lore, Ravenloft, etc...) seem to have one defect
>in the method of control...this due to TOO much dependence on the MOUSE.
>So what do I propose? Well, just a few years ago, we did have some
>excellent rpg's and no mouse...lets incorporate these back into the games.
>First, study the keyboard...most of us have the 101 keypad...lets use :
>Q W E
>A S D section of the keyboard for Movement control, as well as the num.
>Z X C
>This way, I can control movement with my left hand while use the mouse
>with my right.
Ultima Underworld I and II use the keyboard controls you describe. W and
X to move back and forth, A and D to rotate left and right, Z and C to move
left and right, and Q and E to move down and up when able to do so.
>I almost wish Zenith never invented the mouse...almost ;)
You get your wish. Xerox did it, at the Palo Alto research facility that
did Smalltalk, right?
Oh, since I mentioned UW1, I've got a little question: where are Ossikka's
remains on level 3? I've probably found and abandoned them. What does
the scroll/book found there say? Thanks.
Dave Ripton
John Sabean
I would agree that most VR RPGs don't give you much control.
The only problem is that you will never see what you
suggested because it isn't 'user friendly'. I know thats
a bogus excuse, I agree. The problem is for every user that
says "Give me more keyboard controls!" there is another one
that says "Give me more point and click controls!"
Games companies are not realizing that you can make both happy.
When I played DOOM, I turned with the mouse and went forwards and
backwards with the keyboard. I got used to it. The only problem is
in a more complex RPG, you may want to back up, hide behind your
shield, and look for that healing potion in your backpack.
The commands I really wanted in Ultima Underworld were
"Use object in left hand". This would have been great for using
wands during combat. As it was, you had to look away from your enemy
to double click your wand.
You have to be careful, though. You don't want to make the game too
complex.
As for top down RPGs, GIVE ME BACK TURN BASED COMBAT!!!!!
If they still want to do all the snazzy animations, they can. The best
way to do turn based combat is to allow the user to choose an action for
each character, have the computer choose actions for the opponents, and
set the game in motion for a turn. The action then stops and you
go through and do it again. That way you have both turn based combat
AND blood spurting, super decapitation animated graphics, with a
real time feal to it. Darklands attempted to do this (you could pause
combat and give each player new actions). It would have been nice, had
they done it right....
Ajaipal Tanwar
>
> If they still want to do all the snazzy animations, they can. The best
> way to do turn based combat is to allow the user to choose an action for
> each character, have the computer choose actions for the opponents, and
> set the game in motion for a turn. The action then stops and you
> go through and do it again. That way you have both turn based combat
> AND blood spurting, super decapitation animated graphics, with a
> real time feal to it.
I think one of the best combat engines ever is in a recent strategy game called
XCOM or UFO (depending on which side of the Atlantic you happen to live on). It
was turn based, had four levels of elevation, a host of different actions,
destructable walls, limited line of sight (like old ultimas, you can only see
what your characters see). The only problem was that combat took a bit long to
complete, but who cares when it's that good! I would definitely buy an RPG with
this combat engine.
--
Ajaipal S. Tanwar, millionare. I own a mansion and a yacht.
tan...@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu - University of Texas at Austin
"I'm so excited, all six of my nipples are tingling!" -The Cat, "Red Dwarf"
.
: Games which present a first person viewpoint(Ultima Underworld Series,
: Might and Magic, Lands of Lore, Ravenloft, etc...) seem to have one defect
: in the method of control...this due to TOO much dependence on the MOUSE.
: dependent. In RL, most of us have TWO arms, and LEGS also...so why do
: these games come with controls for a one handed person?
It'd be nice if the keyboards were more configurable, but that is a -lot-
of commands to configure, usually.
: OK, so some do come with Keyboard controls...BUT, using the numeric pad for
: movement is also a poor idea...look where the numeric key pad is...right
: next to the mouse...I only have one RIGHT hand...
Score one for us left handers. Hee hee.
Frank Wang
fw...@sbcs.sunysb.edu
The Rodman
>using the mouse was a neat idea, but does EVERYTHING had to be done with a
>mouse? I mean is that one character in the game have only one arm? And
>while swinging a sword, why can't he just run or move back at the same
>time? Most games I have mentioned have the same problem, but Arena gets a
>special flame due to the fact that the Path and Attack is SO Mouse
>dependent...as well as all other controls.
Maybe I'm incredibly gifted, but I find that using the keyboard with one
hand to run around, initiate spells, etc., while using the mouse with the
other hand works just fine for me. This feels pretty natural to me and
allows me to back up, move laterally, etc., and swing my ebony die-katana
at the same time. Just because you have one mouse doesn't mean that you
are restricted to using only one arm yourself, unless of course you only
have one arm to begin with.
--The Rodman
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Obligatory Disclaimer: The (views/flames/falsehoods) expressed above
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Obligatory Rhyming and/or Philosophical Verse: The road foresaken,
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In himself.
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Alexander Kim
still does not work(this time, I can't save any games)...so instead I have
decided to purchase Ultima 8...
Should I get the CD -> HD version or wait for the Enhanced?
Does anyone know when the Enhanced version will be out?
Will it have any more things than the original?
by the way, are there any serious bugs with Ultima 8 warranting a PATCH?
If so, are they all on wuarchive.wustl.edu?
I am dying to play a good game...since LOL did not work out, I guess I
have to settle for another Ultima....
Any responses? ;)
Leon Le Lardarse
>>
>I know Origin's game Ultima Uderworld (not sure about UW2) used the qwe keys
>for direction control. I guess Origin's the only company who's thought about
>using both mouse and keyboard at the same time.
Well, isn't that lovely -- as long as you're using a bloody Anglo keyboard!
Unfortunately, overseas keyboards do not correspond to Anglo ones and
the QWE arrangement would be a real pain in the arse if, for example, you
were on a French keyboard (keys in the QWE poistion are AZE).
User defined is the way to you, you horrible pack of racists! :)
--
Do not read the following sequence of letters. It is part of an ancient
Latvian curse that will instantly induce impotence, herpes and dyspepsia
in your computer or workstation: uoykcuf.
st...@rosie.uh.edu
>st...@Rosie.UH.EDU writes:
>
>>>
>>I know Origin's game Ultima Uderworld (not sure about UW2) used the qwe keys
>>for direction control. I guess Origin's the only company who's thought about
>>using both mouse and keyboard at the same time.
>
>Well, isn't that lovely -- as long as you're using a bloody Anglo keyboard!
>Unfortunately, overseas keyboards do not correspond to Anglo ones and
>the QWE arrangement would be a real pain in the arse if, for example, you
>were on a French keyboard (keys in the QWE poistion are AZE).
>
>User defined is the way to you, you horrible pack of racists! :)
>
>
>--
>
assumed they all looked the same). I wonder what a chinese one would look like
:) Anyways, Origin probalbly didn't really think about it either I guess (after
all, they are based here in Texas)
Jeff Abramson
OK...I am returning LOL CD...even with the patch to version 1.02, the game
still does not work(this time, I can't save any games)...so instead I have
decided to purchase Ultima 8...
Should I get the CD -> HD version or wait for the Enhanced?
Does anyone know when the Enhanced version will be out?
Will it have any more things than the original?
(I should probably add this stuff to the FAQ...)
If you buy now, you can upgrade to the enhanced for $20.00. Is that worth
it? I don't think so. In fact, if you complete U8, you probably won't want
to replay it with the enhanced version. If you aren't really looking to
play U8 *now*, then wait.
The Enhanced CD will be out sometime later this year. Of course it may slip
to 95.
The Enhanced will have U8, the Speech Pack, and the Lost Vale (which is an
add-on similar to how Forge of Virtue is a U7-BlackGate add-on). It will
also have additional speech and probably more graphics. Maybe it will even
have portraits of the characters. Don't expect any changes in plot or
gameplay.
by the way, are there any serious bugs with Ultima 8 warranting a PATCH?
If so, are they all on wuarchive.wustl.edu?
I have not heard of any patches. There has been one bug that I know of, and
some people are bitten by it near the end of the game. Customer support has
helped people fix it. Of course many users have their share of technical
problems, which may or may not be considered bugs.
I am dying to play a good game...since LOL did not work out, I guess I
have to settle for another Ultima....
Sounds like you're not too motivated. Maybe try a different game??
--
--Jeff Abramson ** I don't speak for Intel Corp. **
Microprocessor Division 6 jab...@ichips.intel.com
Intel Corporation, Hillsboro OR (503) 696-4784
Alexander Kim
>st...@Rosie.UH.EDU writes:
>
>>>
>>I know Origin's game Ultima Uderworld (not sure about UW2) used the qwe keys
>>for direction control. I guess Origin's the only company who's thought about
>>using both mouse and keyboard at the same time.
>
>Well, isn't that lovely -- as long as you're using a bloody Anglo keyboard!
>Unfortunately, overseas keyboards do not correspond to Anglo ones and
>the QWE arrangement would be a real pain in the arse if, for example, you
>were on a French keyboard (keys in the QWE poistion are AZE).
>
>User defined is the way to you, you horrible pack of racists! :)
So who cares about those arrogant, anti-american, Burgandy drinking, Bri
eating, snail sucking, Eifel tower climbing, can't defend their country
without the Americans helping, bicycle touring, baret wearing, perfume
smelling, flirting with anything in a skirt, cafe' lounging, nasal
sounding French?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WE ALL SHOULD...including the CRPG companies! ;)
(have a sense of humor...)
-devil
---MOST WANTED BY THE PC POLICE--
Alexander Kim
Well, I don't know about you but I can walk while chewing gum...
I can also drink my can of Coke(tm) while walking...
I can also swing my Katana/Kendo-stick while advancing forward...
...and retreating forward...
I can also charge, do a flying kick, both of which are considered movement...
And using realtime "Physics", more momentum = more pain to the victim...
Which means if you use you entire body to move forward and swing your bat,
you will hit that little white ball with more power...*Home Run*...
All I was asking was for the CRPG makers to make game controls easier...
When you have 3+ members in a group(well trained and used to eachother's
combat styles...this a ASSUMED to be the case in RPG's), One person does
NOT sit back and order around...each of the characters know what the
others are capable of and will fight acordingly...this *Dance of Battle*
is ruined if you have Realtime combat in a game with One brain trying to
push little squares with the mouse! Example:
Fighter 1: Charge with Axe..
Archer 1: Move back and shoot over Fighter 1 with bow...
Thief: Go around the fighting...and get behind enemy...
Mage 1: Cast Protection Spell...
Mage 2: Summon Demon...
All of the above can occurr in the same round/turn in a paper RPG right?
RIGHT!
But, in a CRPG(so far), this is still not possible..unless a turnbased
combat can be done(BAK had a nice system...but needs improvements)
Now try doing the above in a Realtime Combat system...Try doing it all
with the mouse...Try doing it all AT THE SAME TIME! You CAN'T!
You would have to press little squares around the screen ONE BUTTON AT A
TIME...while the 20 Trolls you are facing(and behind you *ARENA FLAME ;)*)
attacks you...NOT very realistic is it?
One person CAN do movement and some actions...
Several people CAN do movement and some actions at the same times...
In real life....but NOT in CRPG's yet...
And having to move the mouse around instead of pressing buttons delays
this realtiy as well...
If the CRPG companies are determined to give us Realtime Combat, give us
the ability to adapt and control those situations better...this is about it...
Oh, by the way, most CRPG games seem to think you have one hand, why? Look
at some of the Icons in LOL and Ravenloft, one Icon to attack...the RIGHT
hand...what ever happend to the left? Why can't I hold a wand in my left
and a potion of explosion in the right? Or a rapier in the right and a
poinard in the left?
You see my point?
-devil
p.s. you were and are wrong.
In article <gfabCru...@netcom.com> gf...@netcom.com (Dan Fabulich) writes:
>Gee, I don't mean to burst everyone's bubble, but... :)
>
>Alexander Kim wrote:
>> More and more RPG's for the computer are comming out now, and I would like
>> to present MY own views on the controls of these games...
>
>> Games which present a first person viewpoint(Ultima Underworld Series,
>> Might and Magic, Lands of Lore, Ravenloft, etc...) seem to have one defect
>> in the method of control...this due to TOO much dependence on the MOUSE.
>> Moving the party around using the mouse, pressing the attack button with
>> the mouse, pressing the 'CAST' button with the mouse, throwing items using
>> the mouse, using potions/healing salves via the mouse, etc.....WAY TOO
>> dependent. In RL, most of us have TWO arms, and LEGS also...so why do
>> these games come with controls for a one handed person? OK, so some do
>> come with Keyboard controls...BUT, using the numeric pad for movement is
>> also a poor idea...look where the numeric key pad is...right next to the
>> mouse...I only have one RIGHT hand...Unless I was left handed(using the
>> mouse with the left hand), I would have to change my right hand from the
>> numeric pad to the mouse and back again...And during combat, my mouse is
>> flying across the screen trying to press the correct buttons...
>
>Simply because you have only one manipulative stylus does NOT mean that
>you are partially dismembered. Let's examine some combat systems:
>
>UW1: Hey! I wanted to use my wand without looking at it! (Well, gee,
>don't you think that just like casting a spell should take more than a
>second, so should using a wand? Admittedly, not as much as a spell, but
>still... GEEZ...)
>
>Might and Magic: Hey! I'm having difficulty controlling all of my party
>members... (Guess what? When you've got lots of party members, they're
>gonna be difficult to control no matter HOW keyboard-oriented you try to
>become...)
>
>U8: Hey! I want to cast a spell/dive into my backpack/use things while
>walking! You know I've got more that one limb! (Sure, but read below...)
>
>> So what do I propose? Well, just a few years ago, we did have some
>> excellent rpg's and no mouse...lets incorporate these back into the games.
>> First, study the keyboard...most of us have the 101 keypad...lets use :
>> Q W E
>> A S D section of the keyboard for Movement control, as well as the num.
>> Z X C
>> This way, I can control movement with my left hand while use the mouse
>> with my right.
>
><turns eyes away from brightly glowing key configuration> Aah! The light!
>The light! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA <Shrivels from existence, encompassed by its
>holiness> :)
>
>Honestly, let's examine what you're proposing. You want these keys so
>you can do other things while walking, like...
>
>Search through your backpack looking for a healing potion. I hope that
>you don't try to walk around while looking through something that you're
>wearing on your back, as you're BOUND to bump into things if you do.
>Quite frankly, if I want a book from MY backpack, I have to stop, remove
>it, search, remove and replace. I'd bump into people if not walls otherwise.
>
>Cast a spell. Same problem if you're using a spellbook or scrolls, not
>to mention that in the memorization system, I've always looked it it like
>the way that U8 sort of treated it, which is: If you're trying to cast a
>spell, you have to stand where you are and concentrate. No whipping off
>spells like there's no tomorrow, nor flaming bolts which are easily
>mistaken for machinegun fire.
>
>Attack. Gee. Offhand, I can't think of ANY game that really lets you
>attack and move around simultaneously, as it's been generally accepted
>that to really do some damage you have to brace your system and attack.
>Even the games with turn-based ystems make you stand still while you
>attack. This probably wouldn't be allowed anyway, you'd STILL have to
>stand still for at least a second to attack. Gee, just like the mouse
>based systems...
>
>Using an item. Like what? A book? While walking? A healing potion?
>Watch your step, you're trying to walk while drinking. A key? Sure, I
>ALWAYS unlock my home while running past the door at top speed. :) What
>can you use while walking that wouldn't disrupt walking? Certainly not
>chewing gum... :)
>
>> If they continue to give us Realtime Combat, give us the players easy
>> access to control the 3 - 4 character party by doing the following:
>> Use the Function keys on top of the Keyboard...notice they are divided
>> into groups of four...May I suggest...
>
>> F1 - F4 = First Character Control buttons (Attack/Cast/Defend/Use)
>> F5 - F8 = Second Character Control buttons
>> F9 - F12 = Third Character Control buttons
>
>> Or,
>
>> F1 - F4 = Attack buttons for each of the Characters(First/Second/Third/Forth)
>> F5 - F8 = Cast buttons for each of the Characters
>> F9 - F12 = Use buttons for each of the Characters
>
>One again, I am in awe of the brilliance of this marvelous key
>configurations... :)
>
>> Easily accessible, allows ONE person in front of the computer to control a
>> group of characters in fast realtime combat...more realism I believe.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Do you? "OK, George, I want you to attack with your sword. Bob, swing
>your axe. Sam, cast a spell. Me? I'll just stand here ordering you
>guys around, meanwhile, I dont' think I have time to talk to you and
>attack, so I guess I'll have to NOT attack while I talk to you..." Gee,
>what a concept. :)
>
>> Also, bring about a "Pause" option, so we can stop the brutal attacks and
>> study the situation...I know it is not very 'Realtime' but, again, It is
>> One brain trying to control a group of characters...
>
>You mean stop the action with everything on the screen? You're right,
>that ISN'T very realistic. On he other hand, if you're just looking to
>stop the action, I think all RPGs I've seen have offered some aability to
>save a game or to find out the version number or something. U8 has the
>diary, Might and Magic has... (damn I've forgotten, it will come to me),
>UW has the Options screen. These are perfect if you're interested in a
>bathroom-break in mid-combat. Meantime, you have TIME to think while
>that's happening, while you often can't see everything that was happening
>on the screen at a time, you still have time to think about your decision.
>
>> I don't think adding these controls to games is asking too much...just a
>> few more lines to the codes...or give us editable Keypad commands...some
>> Flightsims as well as other games allow this, why not rpg's?
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Because some of it's useless, and some of it hurts realism.
>
>> Either give us better controls for realtime combat or give us back our
>> turn based...or give us an option in the game itself...
>
>What, a choice between real-time or turn based? Yeah, THAT'S feasible.
>Besides, ANYTHING offering something like that is BOUND to be half-baked.
>Not to mention that a lot of the stuff you ask for isn't and wasn't
>available in turn-based, and even then turn-based was down a notch in the
>realism department in some respects, like the ordering of party members.
>Either try to order them all around or offer auto-combat, which I believe
>is available for all of the games you mentioned.
>
>> One of the worst control of a game is Arena in my opinion...The combat
>> using the mouse was a neat idea, but does EVERYTHING had to be done with a
>> mouse? I mean is that one character in the game have only one arm? And
>> while swinging a sword, why can't he just run or move back at the same
>> time? Most games I have mentioned have the same problem, but Arena gets a
>> special flame due to the fact that the Path and Attack is SO Mouse
>> dependent...as well as all other controls.
>
>Like I said earlier, using only a mouse does not mean partial
>dismemberment. OK, now I want to watch you attack me, with your two arms
>and two legs, while running backwards, simulatneously. It don't work
>that way, pal. You gotta attack, then run back, not BOTH. Not unless
>you've got a long-range weapon, and then you're talking about another
>beast entirely.
>
>> I almost wish Zenith never invented the mouse...almost ;)
>
>I almost do as well, if only because it sparked the creation of <shudder>
>Windoze... :(
>
>> Just my opinion, you don't have to agree with me...but you're wrong!
>
>(Immature mode ON) No, YOU'RE wrong! :)
>--
> /-----------------------------------------------------------------\
> / Dan Fabulich | You haven't got any bullets! You've just got \
> / gf...@netcom.com | two coconuts and you're bangin' 'em together! \
>< Finger me for the | ---------------------------------------------- >
> \ U8 Walkthrough!! | My opinions are not those of my employer's, /
> \ Toenails! Bolo on! | if only because I am no longer employed. /
> \-----------------------------------------------------------------/
Dennis E. Weldy
>Gee, I don't mean to burst everyone's bubble, but... :)
Hey, burst away...one of us will anyway. I agree with Dan up to
this point.
>> Easily accessible, allows ONE person in front of the computer to control a
>> group of characters in fast realtime combat...more realism I believe.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Do you? "OK, George, I want you to attack with your sword. Bob, swing
>your axe. Sam, cast a spell. Me? I'll just stand here ordering you
>guys around, meanwhile, I dont' think I have time to talk to you and
>attack, so I guess I'll have to NOT attack while I talk to you..." Gee,
>what a concept. :)
If it's a group of friends that are used to fighting together as
a band, mutually agreed upon signals such as gestures and animal sounds
could do this in a short time.
>> Also, bring about a "Pause" option, so we can stop the brutal attacks and
>> study the situation...I know it is not very 'Realtime' but, again, It is
>> One brain trying to control a group of characters...
Like...turn-based? ;-)
>> I almost wish Zenith never invented the mouse...almost ;)
>I almost do as well, if only because it sparked the creation of <shudder>
>Windoze... :(
I wish IBM would have payed Digital Research what they wanted,
instead of making Bill Gates carreer.
>> Just my opinion, you don't have to agree with me...but you're wrong!
>(Immature mode ON) No, YOU'RE wrong! :)
And ugly too... :-]
--
Dennis E. Weldy | enter-> 01101011
dwe...@expert.cc.purdue.edu | 10101010
"In _wildness_ is the preservation | 01011101
of the world." -Metallica | 01101010->exit
and...@csgrad.cs.vt.edu
>Alexander Kim wrote:
one person controlling multiple party members
doing two things at once
fast magic
>> First, study the keyboard...most of us have the 101 keypad...lets use :
>> Q W E
>> A S D section of the keyboard for Movement control, as well as the num.
>> Z X C
>> This way, I can control movement with my left hand while use the mouse
>> with my right.
><turns eyes away from brightly glowing key configuration> Aah! The light!
>The light! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA <Shrivels from existence, encompassed by its
>holiness> :)
>Honestly, let's examine what you're proposing. You want these keys so
>you can do other things while walking, like...
I don't see this as enabling the player / character to do two things at
once; rather, to switch tasks quickly. You walk; you look; you walk; you
root around in your backback; you look at that strange moving blob over
there; you run like hell...
Why use both the mouse and keyboard? To make the interface easier and
more efficient (quicker) to use. I don't like having to switch from
mouse to keyboard to mouse again; being able to use the numeric keypad to move
can be quite useful. Rather than having a game that's either entirely
mouse-based or entirely keyboard-based, using BOTH can make for an easier
game.
>Cast a spell. Same problem if you're using a spellbook or scrolls, not
>to mention that in the memorization system, I've always looked it it like
>the way that U8 sort of treated it, which is: If you're trying to cast a
>spell, you have to stand where you are and concentrate. No whipping off
>spells like there's no tomorrow, nor flaming bolts which are easily
>mistaken for machinegun fire.
What's wrong with fast magic? Depends on the RPG and play balance; fast
magic might be appropriate, believable, and fun.
What pissed ME off is having to do everything with the mouse; while I am
looking through my backpack in RL, I can quickly grab the pack and run.
If I'm mousing around in my character's backpack (in a CRPG), communicating
my desire to sidestep that quickly approaching orc to the game should be
easy.
>Using an item. Like what? A book? While walking? A healing potion?
>Watch your step, you're trying to walk while drinking. A key? Sure, I
>ALWAYS unlock my home while running past the door at top speed. :) What
>can you use while walking that wouldn't disrupt walking? Certainly not
>chewing gum... :)
MY complaing (I am not the original poster) is that I don't want to walk,
stop and do nothing for a few seconds, look at the book in my hands, stop
for a few more seconds, and then continue walking. In RL, I can skim
a book or such while walking - given that both tasks suffer. But I don't
have to come to a complete halt! Switching tasks should be quick. In
pursuit or escape situations, this can be critically important; in general,
having to spend time *just with the interface* is annoying.
re: using F1-F12 for something other than keyboard decoration
>One again, I am in awe of the brilliance of this marvelous key
>configurations... :)
Heck, it'd be nice to use them for something! If the use was intuitive,
quick, easily remembered, not prone to error, etc., I'd love to use it!
re: pausing
No, not very realistic, but then again neither is one person controlling
all actions of four (or more) people. These are GAMES, they are supposed
to be fun. If I'm getting my ass trashed because I can't successfully
manage 6 party members in real time, I blame the game. Give the use control.
How much real combat experience do most players have? Our characters
supposedly have years. Out characters can respond to stimuli in tactically
appropriate ways much faster than players; give the players time to compensate.
re: Arena and using only the mouse
>Like I said earlier, using only a mouse does not mean partial
>dismemberment. OK, now I want to watch you attack me, with your two arms
>and two legs, while running backwards, simulatneously. It don't work
>that way, pal. You gotta attack, then run back, not BOTH. Not unless
>you've got a long-range weapon, and then you're talking about another
>beast entirely.
But I can attack, and then quickly step back; or I can move around quickly,
and then quickly decide that I want to attack. Again, not necessarily
doing both at once, but being able to switch between the two quickly. You
can fire a machine gun while running; throw grenades or oil flasks while
running; most everything else does not require you to be standing in the
same place for several seconds first. Usually knowing when you want to stop
and attack can give you a chance to plant yourself properly when you come
to a halt.
> / Dan Fabulich | You haven't got any bullets! You've just got \
ars
Dennis E. Weldy
>> If it's a group of friends that are used to fighting together as
>> a band, mutually agreed upon signals such as gestures and animal sounds
>> could do this in a short time.
>If you're making some hand symbols, then you've got to make them instead
>of attack. IF you're using sounds or codes, then you're STILL ordering
>them around, and once you get more than two or three in a party things
>will always get tricky, mouse, keyboard or both.
I was thinking of some historical info as well. To sum up, the
Cherokee could say a lot to each other in 2secs or less (a friend of
mine is ALWAYS bragging about this - clams to be part Cherokee). Seems
that they developed a simple but volumous "battle code". I have some
books on Ancient warfare that have a similar thing for the Greeks and
Roman pelters (they were the rangers of thier era).
I'll take 2secs and deploy over total confusion.
I just had another thought....after the "plan" is layed out
from the player point-of-view wouldn't be cool to _see_ those hand signals,
and maybe make-up what they'll be. A hand battle code editer. Talk about
some impressive (and useless) bells and whistles.
Dennis E. Weldy
>Dennis E. Weldy wrote:
>> gf...@netcom.com (Dan Fabulich) writes:
>> I was thinking of some historical info as well. To sum up, the
>> Cherokee could say a lot to each other in 2secs or less (a friend of
>> mine is ALWAYS bragging about this - clams to be part Cherokee). Seems
>> that they developed a simple but volumous "battle code". I have some
>> books on Ancient warfare that have a similar thing for the Greeks and
>> Roman pelters (they were the rangers of thier era).
>Oh, fine. Do you think that someone like Boydon would be able to
>remember a code of the complexity I anticipate????
Thad (the friend I mentioned) sez it was surprisingly simple.
>> I'll take 2secs and deploy over total confusion.
>If there's one thing I've learned from Shadowrun, 2 (or, specifically 3)
>seconds can mean a lot... :)
If you're surprised. If they're suprised, you can control some of
this time.
>> I just had another thought....after the "plan" is layed out
>> from the player point-of-view wouldn't be cool to _see_ those hand signals,
>> and maybe make-up what they'll be. A hand battle code editer. Talk about
>> some impressive (and useless) bells and whistles.
>I think I'd rather double-click on myself or any other player and set the
>battle strategies of my comrades there, just like in U7.5... :)
I agree. ...the point I was eluding to. I would like to see an
expansion of it. It can still be real time, but stop to form 'the plan'.
(which it did anyway) And PULEEEEASE, a better character AI (if you can
call it an AI). I could still live with the core u7 version in the intrest
of speed though. (read: ugrade the AI ONLY if the speed is still usable)
I could do some interesting tricks with it as it was.