D2 - Amazon - Bow or Javelin?
Allen
I started playing an Amazon character for the first time, and I'm planning
on putting all of her skill points into Bow and Passive skills, nothing on
the Javelin/Spear side. My thought being that if I wanted to carry a big
stick, I'da played a Barbarian or Paladin.. As an archer person, I want
to stand back and pluck away at the baddies. My question is what is the
attraction of having a melee Amazon using Javelins as opposed to regular
fighter types using swords and stuff? And of the Bow vs Javelin choices
for Amazons, which do you like better and why?
thx.. Allen
Max Sterling
(at level 1) in the same amount of time that another character gets one.
(save maybe the barbarian, who might get 2.
I tried the bow-amazon, and found her lacking (and I had a good bow too). I
use the spear almost exclusively, and as an example, I took out Blood Raven
in literally 5 seconds using Jab. Using the spear/javelin tree, you have
both melee and ranged combat skills.
"Allen" <all...@starbase.neosoft.com> wrote in message
news:E0F45C98EEE95CA9.4A03AE3D...@lp.airnews.net...
Robert Spelman
damn Fetishes!) I got a socketed long bow and put in a skull, sapphire
and topaz for cold (freezes them in their tracks!), lightning and
life/mana drain. The bow served me very well through Act 3, and only
occasionally did I have to switch back to my spear weapon, mostly when
dealing with hordes of small creatures nibbling at me. I finished Act 4
and started on Nightmare, and when it was apparent my bow was no longer
powerful enough to do the job I went back to Normal and replayed Act 4.
The first creatures I encountered that time around were mages and those
puking flesh creatures. I probably died about 6 times because they'd get
me on the stairs - they'd curse me so I'd take 5x damage or something,
not fun. Once I had killed them all and gotten my items back, I went
through the loot and found a yellow pike. Normally I'd just sell it, but
when I ID'd it and saw what it was I decided to use it - it was
classified as a spear weapon, and though it was slow, it's base damage
was a max of 139! In addition, it was approx. +117 to attack, +8 to
minimum damage, did 12-38 poison damage over 4 seconds and about an
equivalent amount of lightning damage. When I equipped it, I was doing a
max of 269 points of damage per attack!! Not too shabby.. with Jab, I
can attack 6 times in the time it takes me to make 2 normal attacks, and
it doesn't take very much mana. I sold my bow and have been using the
pike ever since.
M.O.
Max Sterling
"Robert Spelman" <mad...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:397325BB...@my-deja.com...
Dennis Francis Heffernan
|
|I started playing an Amazon character for the first time, and I'm planning
|on putting all of her skill points into Bow and Passive skills, nothing on
|the Javelin/Spear side.
Bows don't work so well on the Act bosses, so build up Jab a bit.
I killed Duriel, Mephisto and Diablo by getting next to them with a good
Boss Killin' Stick (Brutal Trident of Alacrity, Spetum of Pestilence, Pike of
Readiness) and holding down Jab.
Dennis F. Heffernan EQ: Venture Fletcher(E'ci) dfra...@email.com
Montclair State U #include <disclaim.h> ICQ:9154048 CompSci/Philosophy
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days
when Victoria reigned!" -- T.S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat
Allen
So are you saying that an Amazon with huge Jab skills is a better melee
fighter than a Barbarian or Paladin?
thx.. Allen
Max Sterling
comment on his melee skills, but I would say that she beats the Paladin. I
have a level 18 paladin, and even with thorns, he can't take out monsters
and especially bosses as fast as the amazon with Jab. The ONLY problem with
Jab is that the durability of your weapon goes donw QUICK.
"Allen" <all...@starbase.neosoft.com> wrote in message
news:626BC3EDCAF7D357.36709498...@lp.airnews.net...
Deirdre M. Brooks
Allen wrote:
>
> I started playing an Amazon character for the first time, and I'm planning
> on putting all of her skill points into Bow and Passive skills, nothing on
> the Javelin/Spear side. My thought being that if I wanted to carry a big
> stick, I'da played a Barbarian or Paladin.. As an archer person, I want
> to stand back and pluck away at the baddies. My question is what is the
> attraction of having a melee Amazon using Javelins as opposed to regular
> fighter types using swords and stuff? And of the Bow vs Javelin choices
> for Amazons, which do you like better and why?
I've played a spear Amazon all the way through the game and I found the
combination of Jab (at 6+) and Critical Strike to be rather priceless.
:-) Three attacks at full damage with a significant chance (three times)
to double that damage is a nice bonus.
I also like the ability to use a pike at "fast attack speeds." At least,
that's what Jab simulates.
I've found Poison Javelin to be of moderate use, as well as Lightning
Javelin. Power Strike is *okay*, but I only relied on it for a full half
of an Act. Fend would be nicer if I had about four or five more points
to drop in it.
I think they're balanced, and I'm tempted to start a bow Amazon to see
how that plays out.
--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xe...@teleport.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"Atlantic City is Oz envisioned by used car salesmen and pimps."
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | --Rick Glumsky, Celtic Filth
Christopher M
does an extra attack all in the same time as a normal attack, all for 2
mana! My lvl 16 pladin with a seven in Zeal is MUCH more powerful than my
spear amazon was with Jab.
IMO, an amazon is meant to be played from a distance, no matter what skill
trees you choose. Within the Javelin/Spear skill tree, most of her skills
are suited to using the javelins (almost 50%), rather than spears. Plus she
is SLOW with spears, nearly always getting hit by enemies before she can
touch them with a spear (mainly because the animation pulls the spear back
first, then pokes with it).
Chris
"Max Sterling" <ma...@SPAMgamersfocus.com> wrote in message
news:3973...@news.avenew.com...
Dennis Francis Heffernan
wrote:
|What about the paladin with Zeal? For every skill point put into it, he
|does an extra attack all in the same time as a normal attack, all for 2
|mana! My lvl 16 pladin with a seven in Zeal is MUCH more powerful than my
|spear amazon was with Jab.
Haven't played a Paladin yet, but according to The Book, Zeal is used to
attack multiple targets. Jab gives you three hits on the SAME guy.
As for attack speed, wasn't really an issue. Aria's current spear is a
Pike of Readiness with 'fast attack speed'.
Calvin Evans
> I went the Spear/Javelin route. Why? In a skill: Jab. I can get in 3 hits
> (at level 1) in the same amount of time that another character gets one.
> (save maybe the barbarian, who might get 2.
>
> I tried the bow-amazon, and found her lacking (and I had a good bow too). I
> use the spear almost exclusively, and as an example, I took out Blood Raven
> in literally 5 seconds using Jab. Using the spear/javelin tree, you have
> both melee and ranged combat skills.
I'll second this. I chose the spear/javelin path as well, focusing on
Jab. Very few monsters can survive a high-level Jab attack with a good
pike, and it rips through the bosses in very short order. Diablo lasted
about fifteen seconds against my Amazon, the poor thing. I think it's
important to have at least some bow skills though. The Amazon is one of
the most flexible classes and it's a good idea to take advantage of that
fact. There's been a lot times I'd wish I'd had a good bow and the skills
to use it, or even some decent javelin ones, but I chose to put
everything into the melee skills (and the dodge skills, which are great).
I'm doing Nightmare now, and the biggest problem I'm having is being
surrounded by a group of monsters. Well, that and running into anything
that's Lightning Enchanted. I have to run in, hit once, then immediately
back off and heal to take out those guys without being fried to a crisp.
I even have a high lightning resistence. I can just imagine what it's
going to be like on Hell difficulty...
Philip Trevorrow
points I do from 110-220 damage each and every arrow and they never miss.
With a very fast speed bow, I was able to beat Diablo on nightmare with just
me and my Valkryie. With an awesome bow I could easily do 200-400 damage per
shot. Plus I never let the monsters get close enough to hit me so I didn't
worry too much on my passive skills except penetrate. I think bow is far
better than javelin unless you like to get your hands dirty.
--
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have
good
people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good
people to do evil things, that takes religion."
"Calvin Evans" <q480...@musgrave.cqu.edu.au> wrote in message
news:MPG.13ddd2c0e...@news.ozemail.com.au...
Philip Trevorrow
will attack that target multiple times. I have a level 27 paladin with a
skill level of 10 in zeal which gives me 11 attacks I think. I don't think
it's working right because you're also supposed to get an attack bonus but I
seem to miss more than I hit with Zeal. When I do the single attack I hit
way more often.
--
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have
good
people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good
people to do evil things, that takes religion."
"Dennis Francis Heffernan" <dfra...@email.com> wrote in message
news:a867nss60p9s3gl59...@4ax.com...
Calvin Evans
<626BC3EDCAF7D357.36709498...@lp.airnews.net>,
all...@starbase.neosoft.com says...
>
> So are you saying that an Amazon with huge Jab skills is a better melee
> fighter than a Barbarian or Paladin?
>
> thx.. Allen
>
I don't have enough experience with either of those two to comment
really. I've seen someone mention here that an Amazon with good dodge
skills is as hard to hit as a Barbarian with enormous armour, and I'd be
surprised if either of those two classes could deal significantly more
damage than a well developed Jab/Critical Strike combo. I think this game
is very well balanced.
Deirdre M. Brooks
Christopher M wrote:
>
> IMO, an amazon is meant to be played from a distance, no matter what skill
> trees you choose. Within the Javelin/Spear skill tree, most of her skills
> are suited to using the javelins (almost 50%), rather than spears. Plus she
> is SLOW with spears, nearly always getting hit by enemies before she can
> touch them with a spear (mainly because the animation pulls the spear back
> first, then pokes with it).
I suppose this is why, with a few notable exceptions, I've done about
10x with the Amazon in melee than at range. I also get the impression my
experiences are not unique.
FWOW, also, with jab I find that I can get a hit or three in before a
monster an attak.
Jochen Heistermann
>
> I think they're balanced, and I'm tempted to start a bow Amazon to see
> how that plays out.
>
of passive skills is great for a hit and run approach. You have to play very tactical
and with some foresight. The gameplay is challenging and I manged not to die during
Act1 and 2. :-))
Try it you won't regret it!
Jochen
M. de Mare
"Max Sterling" <ma...@SPAMgamersfocus.com> wrote in message
news:3973...@news.avenew.com...
>
>
It's a rare one (yellow) and it's sounds like a good, but not an exceptional
one. Pikes really do an awful lot of damage. I would guess that the Amazon
is able to do the most damage per second (not sure though). Jab (high attack
speed + rating + extra damage on higher levels), critical strike, penetrate
(even higher attack rating) plus a good pike make for a deadly combo.
However, compared to the barbarian, the spear-wielding Amazon has the
following disadvantages:
- fewer hit points
- can't use a shield when wielding spears (think blocking, not defense)
- much lower defense rating (partially compensated by dodge skills)
- bad resistances
- no leap attack (harder to take out those pesky shamans)
> > Allen wrote:
> > >
> > > I started playing an Amazon character for the first time, and I'm
> planning
> > > on putting all of her skill points into Bow and Passive skills,
nothing
> on
> > > the Javelin/Spear side. My thought being that if I wanted to carry a
> big
> > > stick, I'da played a Barbarian or Paladin.. As an archer person, I
want
> > > to stand back and pluck away at the baddies. My question is what is
the
> > > attraction of having a melee Amazon using Javelins as opposed to
regular
> > > fighter types using swords and stuff? And of the Bow vs Javelin
choices
> > > for Amazons, which do you like better and why?
> > >
> > > thx.. Allen
>
>
NewsFlash
"Christopher M" <cm...@columbus.rr.com> wrote in message
news:enMc5.6012$s3.7...@typhoon.columbus.rr.com...
> What about the paladin with Zeal? For every skill point put into it, he
> does an extra attack all in the same time as a normal attack, all for 2
> mana! My lvl 16 pladin with a seven in Zeal is MUCH more powerful than my
> spear amazon was with Jab.
>
> trees you choose. Within the Javelin/Spear skill tree, most of her skills
> are suited to using the javelins (almost 50%), rather than spears. Plus
she
> is SLOW with spears, nearly always getting hit by enemies before she can
> touch them with a spear (mainly because the animation pulls the spear back
> first, then pokes with it).
>
Actually zeal does the attacks faster but not in the same time it takes to
do one attack. Zeal is also weapon speed based, a pali zealing with a
dagger is faster then one using a maul. Jab on the other hand is done at
the same speed no matter what weapon. A amaz jabbing with a normal slow
pike 3 times in the same time that she does one normal javelin attack is
deady. Zeal is great too dont get me wrong, but it does have a tendency to
whiff if u start to zeal from slightly out of range cause then all the zeal
attacks miss. For zeal u have to be very careful that u target a monster
that is right next to u. Sometimes when I'm surrounded and I accidently
click on a monster in teh back u will do a big whiff with the zeal and miss
totally. For some reason, jab does not have this prob.
<ma...@SPAMgamersfocus.com> wrote in message
> news:3973...@news.avenew.com...
John Henders
>It depends on your combat strategy. I haven't played a barbarian enough to
>comment on his melee skills, but I would say that she beats the Paladin. I
>have a level 18 paladin, and even with thorns, he can't take out monsters
>and especially bosses as fast as the amazon with Jab. The ONLY problem with
>Jab is that the durability of your weapon goes donw QUICK.
If you haven't been stacking your points into zeal, your paladin isn't
doing anywhere near what he's capable of. Dispite it's description in
the skill tree, zeal will hit the same mob multiple times if you don't
have a crowd around you. My paladin is like a cuisinart with his
vicious longsword of quickness and 8 zeal. A ring with mana tap 5
assures he's always full of mana.
--
Artificial Intelligence stands no chance against Natural Stupidity.
GAT d- -p+(--) c++++ l++ u++ t- m--- W--- !v
b+++ e* s-/+ n-(?) h++ f+g+ w+++ y*
hoy....@spam.hawaii.me.edu
: I started playing an Amazon character for the first time, and I'm planning
: on putting all of her skill points into Bow and Passive skills, nothing on
: the Javelin/Spear side. My thought being that if I wanted to carry a big
: stick, I'da played a Barbarian or Paladin.. As an archer person, I want
: to stand back and pluck away at the baddies. My question is what is the
: attraction of having a melee Amazon using Javelins as opposed to regular
: fighter types using swords and stuff? And of the Bow vs Javelin choices
: for Amazons, which do you like better and why?
They're all fun and useful.
Love the spearazon for the quick damage with jab. BTW, spears have
awesome range compared what the barbarian and especially the paladin
use. Compared to javelins and bows, has the toughest time at facing
hordes and the lightning enchanted. Jab has a super cheap mana cost,
which allows more stat points in things other than mana. Also great is
that her main attack is a first level skill. She gets it early, plus
doesn't need to spend points for frivolous skills down the tree.
The javazon is a good mix between melee and thrown. Well, a bit more on
thrown compared to a barb with throw mastery (wonder if anyone actually
plays like that with him). Anyway, the super damage with the thrown
javelins rock. Plus, you can have the pierce skill without much detriment
to your javelins. Poison javelins rock; lightning doesn't come out from
poison. Worst thing about using javelins is that you cannot find them
with magical enchantments. At least you get to use a shield.
The bowazon...only one of the three styles to have cold, which is a must
for her. Early on, she's good at taking out hordes with multiple
shot. Best is when she's equipped with a cold attack bow. It'll slow
down monsters while they burn in from her immolation arrow. Personally, I
like Strafe more. The autoaiming is especially useful when shooting
things that are off screen (fetishes!). Unlike some people say, shooting
one strafe only consumes one arrow, not 5+. Her weakness really is the
low damage potential. It makes fighting lightning enchanted mobs much
more difficult. Heh, strafe or immolation on them is a _bad_ idea.
all fun. love messing around with slow missiles...look, i'm Neo.
--
hoy xatx hawaii xdotx education
Christoph Nahr
wrote:
>If you haven't been stacking your points into zeal, your paladin isn't
>doing anywhere near what he's capable of. Dispite it's description in
>the skill tree, zeal will hit the same mob multiple times if you don't
>have a crowd around you. My paladin is like a cuisinart with his
>vicious longsword of quickness and 8 zeal. A ring with mana tap 5
>assures he's always full of mana.
There's one nasty problem with Zeal, though. At higher levels your
paladin will get stuck in the same place for a second or two until
he's delivered all his Zeal strikes. In the meantime the surrounding
monster mob has ample time to close in or fire all sorts of nasty
missiles at him... I'm not going to increase Zeal past 4 for that
reason, it's getting too dangerous.
--
Visit http://uuhome.de/christoph.nahr/ for Might & Magic information
and game projects with source code for download: Star Chess & Hexkit
Richard Peiper
This is only partially true.
If you kill the last monster in the middle of zeal barrage, you will
stop. HOWEVER, if a monster walks up during your zeal barrage he can be
targeted by your swing and you appear to have a VERY small chance of
hitting him.
As an example
Attacking a solo monster (Say Duriel the Boss on Act II) with a Level 8
Zeal. You will take your 9 swings every "round" and if he does on swing 3,
you will stop right there.
Example 2:
Attacking a solo monster with level 8 Zeal, and a 2nd monster walks up in
the middle of your swings. Monster #1 dies on Swing 3, You will continue to
swing since there are still monsters around, but there is a bug or feature
which basically prevents you from hitting Monster #2 until the next round.
Richard
Scott Shupe
>
> This is only partially true.
>
> If you kill the last monster in the middle of zeal barrage, you will
> stop. HOWEVER, if a monster walks up during your zeal barrage he can be
> targeted by your swing and you appear to have a VERY small chance of
> hitting him.
That's not the problem. The problem is that if you're in trouble, you
can't start to run away until your last Zeal swing finishes. I've died
because of this, and just about died countless times. When you're in
Nightmare mode and you lose XP for dying, it's especially troubling.
I'm with Christoph on this one - my Zeal is at 5 right now with a +1
paladin skills war scepter, and I'm not raising it any higher.
K. Laisathit
> I don't have enough experience with either of those two to comment
> really. I've seen someone mention here that an Amazon with good dodge
> skills is as hard to hit as a Barbarian with enormous armour, and I'd be
> surprised if either of those two classes could deal significantly more
> damage than a well developed Jab/Critical Strike combo. I think this game
> is very well balanced.
That's misleading. The problem with most Amazon's passive skills is that
the marginal benefit goes down extremely quickly as you pour more
skill points into it. Pass 3 or 4 skill points in a passive skill, you
usually increase
the effectiveness by 4 or 5 percent or less for every additional skill
points.
It means that once you get past around 30% in Dodge/Critical/Evade/etc.,
the increased benefit is hardly worth the cost in skill points.
Sure, you can raise your dodge skill sky-high to make you as untouchable
as a Barb in ancient armor, but that comes at the cost of not having
any points into any offensive skills. The problem is that it most likely
requires insane amount of skill points to raise the dang skill pass 50.
From what I know, lots of amazon players, myself included, opt for a
generalist
approach regarding passive skills -- a handful skill points in most skills
but no more.
Later...
Quatoria
"K. Laisathit" <kir...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>Sure, you can raise your dodge skill sky-high to make you as untouchable
>as a Barb in ancient armor, but that comes at the cost of not having
>any points into any offensive skills. The problem is that it most likely
>requires insane amount of skill points to raise the dang skill pass 50.
>From what I know, lots of amazon players, myself included, opt for a
>generalist
>approach regarding passive skills -- a handful skill points in most skills
>but no more.
That's precisely what I've done. Three or four points in each passive
skill I get the chance for, simply because, as you say, past 30-40%,
you see SHARPLY diminishing returns, and it's not worth wasting points
in such a fashion, unless you've got absolutely nothing else to buy.
-Quatoria
--
In this unpredictable, oftentimes contentious world,
sometimes you just have to sit back, take a moment to
reflect, and say "Well, I'll be a greased Jesus!"
Calvin Evans
kir...@u.washington.edu says...
>
> Calvin Evans <q480...@musgrave.cqu.edu.au> wrote in message
> news:MPG.13de43d02...@news.ozemail.com.au...
> > I don't have enough experience with either of those two to comment
> > really. I've seen someone mention here that an Amazon with good dodge
> > skills is as hard to hit as a Barbarian with enormous armour, and I'd be
> > surprised if either of those two classes could deal significantly more
> > damage than a well developed Jab/Critical Strike combo. I think this game
> > is very well balanced.
>
> That's misleading. The problem with most Amazon's passive skills is that
> the marginal benefit goes down extremely quickly as you pour more
> skill points into it. Pass 3 or 4 skill points in a passive skill, you
> usually increase
> the effectiveness by 4 or 5 percent or less for every additional skill
> points.
> It means that once you get past around 30% in Dodge/Critical/Evade/etc.,
> the increased benefit is hardly worth the cost in skill points.
>
> as a Barb in ancient armor, but that comes at the cost of not having
> any points into any offensive skills. The problem is that it most likely
> requires insane amount of skill points to raise the dang skill pass 50.
> From what I know, lots of amazon players, myself included, opt for a
> generalist
> approach regarding passive skills -- a handful skill points in most skills
> but no more.
True, it is important to spread your skills out. I guess I should have
clarified my situation a bit. Right now my Amazon has about 3 or 4 in
each dodge skill, about 8 in Jab, enough points in Critical Strike to
bring it to about 50%, and a few other points spread amongst other things
like Fend and Penetrate. She's got a pretty narrow focus, so much so that
whenever I level up now my options are either to develop the dodging a
bit more, or the Jab/Penetrate/CH a bit more. I've definately noticed
the decreased effectiveness of the passive skills as you spend more skill
points, which is why I've been thinking about developing some of the
javelin skills (the bow skills seem like they'd need a major investment).
I'm doing Nightmare now so I figure any new skill I develop is gonna take
a long time to become useful, but I sure would like to be able to take
out a small group of creatures with less than 60 javelins. I also thought
about building a strong Valkyrie, but I've heard they're not very useful
in the later stages of the game.
The upside of all this is that I've got a pretty mean melee fighter, but
that's all I've got. If I could do it all over again I'd definately
explore other paths, but I've already made the mistake of spreading the
points too thinly with another character. This whole skill tree business
has a surprising amount of depth to it.