Fallout is not that good.
Tony of the Domain Formerly Known as IPU Dot Com
Charlie Neo <cha...@swiftech.net.sg> wrote:
>Come on . I get bored playing fallout in just 5 hours . Fallout can't be
>that good ..... or that RPG games just suck in 1997 .
>There is a major flaw in the game . The stealing ability . U dont even
>need to tag the skill. just save and try over and over . once u get some
>money ( and u can do so easily with steal ) Go and buy a Plasma Rifle
>increase your Energy weapon skill and thats it . oh right get power
>armor from brotherhood . Just takes a little time. Then u are set !
>Any one got any comments on this ?
Sure! If you simply save and restore any time you want to try
something with risk involved, EVERY game you play will be too easy.
-- Tony of the Domain Formerly Known As IPU.COM
Like CW? Check out the CWSuperPage at WWW.CWSuperPage.com
ICQ: 368391 Email? Try my name at InfoPackaging dot Com.
Yes, I am paranoid about spam.
Zanshin
In article <35390840...@swiftech.net.sg>, cha...@swiftech.net.sg
(Charlie Neo) wrote:
> There is a major flaw in the game . The stealing ability . U dont even
> need to tag the skill. just save and try over and over .
[some stuff cut here]
> Any one got any comments on this ?
>
Erm... Don't do it ? You might find you enjoy playing a bit more if you
play in the spirit of the game, instead of exploiting loopholes like this.
John M Clancy
Charlie Neo wrote:
>
> Come on . I get bored playing fallout in just 5 hours . Fallout can't be
> that good .
Let's see 19,321 poster's to this newsgroup think Fallout is
one of the best CRPGs to come out in a long time and
destined to become a classic and you think it's not. Hmmmmm,
to each his own.
>.... or that RPG games just suck in 1997 .
Yup. But Fallout would have been in the top 5 in any year.
> There is a major flaw in the game . The stealing ability . U dont even
> need to tag the skill. just save and try over and over . once u get some
> money ( and u can do so easily with steal )
Ummm, that's called cheating and is a flaw in any game that
has random numbers and a save game feature which includes
just about every CRPG ever made. Try again.
> Go and buy a Plasma Rifle
> increase your Energy weapon skill and thats it . oh right get power
> armor from brotherhood . Just takes a little time. Then u are set !
That's one way to play the game. You can play the game
several different ways.
> Gain Exp points by stealing !
> Any one got any comments on this ?
So? There is also a flaw with the barter skill that
allows you to get mega amounts of money. Just because
there is a slight design flaw doesn't mean you HAVE to
exploit it. If you want to cheat there are ways to cheat
in any game, character editors, save game editors,
memory editors, etc.
You are looking at a Mona Lisa and saying the picture
frame sucks. Big Deal. What about the storyline, the
excellent game engine, The frredom to solve quests in
any order, the freedom to play various character types?
Get serious.
--
John M Clancy aka MeleKahn aka Poison
"Where ever you are in life, that's where you
want to be"
Steve
Tony of the Domain Formerly Known as IPU Dot Com wrote:
>
> Charlie Neo <cha...@swiftech.net.sg> wrote:
>
> >Come on . I get bored playing fallout in just 5 hours . Fallout can't be
>
> >There is a major flaw in the game . The stealing ability . U dont even
> >need to tag the skill. just save and try over and over . once u get some
> >increase your Energy weapon skill and thats it . oh right get power
> >armor from brotherhood . Just takes a little time. Then u are set !
>
>
> something with risk involved, EVERY game you play will be too easy.
>
No kidding. Reminds me of a guy who posted to the strat group awhile
back. He had "found" a "cheat" to "beat" PG, and just had to tell us
all. His plan was to save before every combat, and then replay it until
he got the result he wanted. Well, duh. The truely sad thing was, by
the tone of his post, he clearly thought he was the most clever thing
since sliced bread.
Takes all kinds.
Heckle
John M Clancy wrote:
> You are looking at a Mona Lisa and saying the picture
> frame sucks. Big Deal. What about the storyline, the
> excellent game engine, The frredom to solve quests in
> any order, the freedom to play various character types?
>
> Get serious.
The game engine was good, but the rest has been done before. I didn't
get the feeling that I could solve quests in any order, but instead felt
kind of rushed to find the water chip (not sure what is beyond that,
since I stopped there for reasons explained below).
Fallout fell into the same trap that most "open ended" CRPG's do: tons
of the same exact quest, just with a different object and delivery
point. Almost every single quest I ran into was a "Get item A, bring to
destination B" or " Kill A, report to B". There was still no real
"roleplaying", as you had to perform deeds in a certain order or you're
screwed, even if it means doing things out of character. As an example,
let me use the first major disappointment I had with the game. n
Junktown (I think that's the town, anyway) there's the Dr. that's
cutting up humans and sending the parts to the big trading town. Well, I
had already helped the boss of Junktown kill the gambling guy, so I was
in good with the power structure. I went to the doctor to get healed
after a particularly nasty fight in the wastes (first time I had felt
the need to go to him), and found out about this cannibalism thing. I
was trying to play the Champion type of character, and given the
options, decided to waste the doctor. Well, when I get back into town
everyone is trying to kill me. No questions, no chance to explain myself
or prove what the doctor was doing (which would have been easy given the
amount of evidence in his basement). Just BAM, forced to flee. There
were others throughout the game like this incident, but the worst was
finally getting to where the water chip was and finding it guarded by
tons of super mutants with super weapons. I'm sure there is a
non-violent way out of that situation, but I was fed up and bored with
the game by that point. Was the same thing as every other CRPG that's
come out since Ultima I and Wizardry. You would think that with today's
technology, someone could create a slightly more "interactive" world.
Heckle
Daniel Ban
Boy I think you are off the mark here! Yes its true that most CRPGs
have simple repetitive quests, and that most of the time, all you do is
Kill X, Y and Z. But what distinguished FallOut from the others was
that almost all of the main quests could be accomplished a VARIETY of
ways.
Let me take apart your specific gripes:
Doc Morbid. You EXECUTED Doc Morbid with no warning and then are
surprised when the local authorities turn on you? Hmm.... In the game,
there are SEVERAL ways to deal with Doc Morbid. You can pick the lock
on his locker (using thief skills) and get an invoice which shows his
evil scheme; you can provoke his little henchman (using speech skills)
into starting a fight and if you kill him and his men in self defense,
you are OK; etc. You do NOT have to kill the Doc to gather evidence
against him. Yes it is true, that even with the invoice, Killian wont
take action against the Doc. But still, you used heavy handed tactics.
Just because they didnt work is no reason to condemn the game.
The SuperMutants at the Watershed. You even admit that there were
probably non-fighting methods around this but you were too "bored" to
deal with it. Well, I think that shows a real lack of imagination. You
can sneak past the super Mutants using stealth; you can use speach
skills to outsmart Harry and then just walk past him; or you can blast
Harry's ugly mug to hell. My own favorite was the time I succeeded in
talking my way past Harry, solved that part of the quest, then after
leaving, I went back in to see what Harry would do about it. I was
given the option to tell Harry "I just came back to kick your ass" and
even though I knew I had little chance, I just HAD to say that to
Harry. It was beautiful.
There are numerous examples of the fact that FallOut can be played in
true role playing fashion. If you play as a pure fighter, you can solve
the game, and that may even be the path of least resistance. However,
you CAN solve the game without having to fight many of the major
battles.
Early on, with the raiders who kidnapped Tandi, you can: using speech
and barter skills, bargain for Tandi's release; using stealth, sneak in,
pick the lock and run for it; with high martial arts challenge the
raider leader to a man on man fistfight; with high luck and high speech
pretend to be the ghost of the leader's deceased father and order
Tandi's release, or you can go in with guns blazing and kill em all.
You will actually get MORE experience for using one of the less violent
methods.
Likewise, some of the big quests at the end can be solved in several
ways. The Cathedral is the game's finale and can be a tough, bloody
fight. You can fight your way into the cathedral, up the tower to
Morpheus to get the key, then down the levels below the cathedral, to
face the Master and blow him away. This is probably the toughest set of
fights in the game. OR, you can pretend to be a Child of the Cathedral,
get an audience with Morpheus and use high speech to get him to take you
to the Leader, with little or no fighting. Once in, you can then use
speech (if you have the right evidence to back you up) to convince the
leader to commit suicide. OR, once below the Cathedral, you can sneak
around to the hidden bomb chamber, use computer or thief skills to set
off the bomb and blow away the Master without facing him. And so on...
In other words, FallOut really does let you play as a gunslinger, a
thief, a fast talker, etc. Yes, there are limitations, such as things
in Junktown being a little shaky, or some quests not being very clear
(like the Skulz). But compared to most CRPGs, FallOut is great.
Honestly, until we have online RPGs where players go on adventures
moderated by human GMs, there is a limit to what AI can do in terms of
role-playing. FallOut has done the best job by far, and I find your
criticisms to be off the mark.
Perhaps FallOut does not appeal to your tastes. That's fine, we all
have different tastes. But Fallout does a better job of allowing
role-playing than any single player PC game I have played in years,
maybe ever. So I think criticising Fallout for the reasons you cited is
off-base.
I do think one legitimate criticism of Fallout is that the player does
not get enough info during the game on a single play-through to really
know how to handle the different quests. For example, you cannot really
ask anyone in Junktown for the dirt on Doc Morbid. The game would
definitely benefit by having more clues to the player's quest options
scattered around. That being said, Fallout is still great, and I would
encourage you to try it again.
Charlie Neo
Come on . I get bored playing fallout in just 5 hours . Fallout can't be
that good ..... or that RPG games just suck in 1997 .
There is a major flaw in the game . The stealing ability . U dont even
need to tag the skill. just save and try over and over . once u get some
money ( and u can do so easily with steal ) Go and buy a Plasma Rifle
increase your Energy weapon skill and thats it . oh right get power
armor from brotherhood . Just takes a little time. Then u are set !
Gain Exp points by stealing !
Steal ( and put back ) over and over again without exit the steal screen
gives high exp point !
Times Exp
1 10
2 30
3 60
5 150
10 550
13 910
And so on ..... get high steal skill then u can earn exp early on very
very fast !
Christopher A Tew
On 18 Apr 1998 21:07:05 GMT, my net caught this bit of flotsam from
to...@zanshin.cix.co.uk (Zanshin):
>In article <35390840...@swiftech.net.sg>, cha...@swiftech.net.sg
>(Charlie Neo) wrote:
>
>
>> There is a major flaw in the game . The stealing ability . U dont even
>> need to tag the skill. just save and try over and over .
>[some stuff cut here]
>> Any one got any comments on this ?
>>
>
>Erm... Don't do it ? You might find you enjoy playing a bit more if you
>play in the spirit of the game, instead of exploiting loopholes like this.
Right. Fallout will not reward munchkin players, just as Jane's F-15
does not reward the casual simmer.
This, of course, is a great thing.
-Cat
-------------------------
"We've just occupied the language
areas of your cerebral cortex;
you will now generate auto-critique"
-Grant Morrison, "The Invisibles"
Charlie Neo
Zanshin wrote:
> In article <35390840...@swiftech.net.sg>, cha...@swiftech.net.sg
> (Charlie Neo) wrote:
>
> > There is a major flaw in the game . The stealing ability . U dont even
> > need to tag the skill. just save and try over and over .
> [some stuff cut here]
> > Any one got any comments on this ?
> >
>
> Erm... Don't do it ? You might find you enjoy playing a bit more if you
> play in the spirit of the game, instead of exploiting loopholes like this.
It's like a drug , once u know it and it is just too easy to do it . it's
hard to kick it !
Anyway . The game is too boring and limited.. I mean there is just not many
towns to go and things to do . And tell me who doesnt end up using a Energy
weapon and power armor ? And then sometimes u end up getting bored because u
dont know what the hell is going on ! The interface and storyline is broken up
. u stop on the main quest for some time and then continue .... u will get
somewhat lost .
This is just my observation and I havent finish the game yet ..... so as
replaybility concern . I wouldnt want to play such a 'small' game again.
Hyeong-Min Kim
There is a major flaw in your argument. According to your logic, every
game that allows the player to save at any point must suck.
Charlie Neo wrote:
> Come on . I get bored playing fallout in just 5 hours . Fallout can't
> be
> that good ..... or that RPG games just suck in 1997 .
>
> There is a major flaw in the game . The stealing ability . U dont even
>
Hyeong-Min Kim
Charlie Neo wrote:
> It's like a drug , once u know it and it is just too easy to do it .
> it's
> hard to kick it !
Lack of self-control, huh?
>
>
> Anyway . The game is too boring and limited.. I mean there is just not
> many
> towns to go and things to do .
You must be doing something wrong. There are always so many things to do
in Fallout.
> And tell me who doesnt end up using a Energy
> weapon and power armor ?
When I first played Fallout, I used a energy weapon & power armor. Now
I've finished the game again without using a energy weapon & power
armor. In fact, I didn't kill anybody in Military Base at all.
> And then sometimes u end up getting bored because u
> dont know what the hell is going on ! The interface and storyline is
> broken up
> . u stop on the main quest for some time and then continue .... u will
> get
> somewhat lost .
Why don't you pay more attention to the storyline, understand why people
say, and try to find what's going on?
>
>
> This is just my observation and I havent finish the game yet ..... so
> as
> replaybility concern . I wouldnt want to play such a 'small' game
> again.
I've been a hard-core PC gamer for 9 years and it takes me A LOT for a
game to impress me. Actually, only a few games have completely impressed
me, and I must say that Fallout is the best game I've ever played.
Douglas J. Rener
>Right. Fallout will not reward munchkin players, just as Jane's F-15
>does not reward the casual simmer.
I own Fallout but get disgusted by all the bugs in the scripting.
I have updated to the latest version and strange things still
happen to the story line.
For example, I go to JunkTown and set up a crime boss (the fat
guy behind the desk) using a tape recorder in my hand. I go back to
the sheriff(?) and he does a bust and I go a long to help. Well all
hell breaks loose and the crime boss is dead. Then I get blamed for a
bad bust and am told to leave town (even though when the bust went
down, I start OUTSIDE of the casino). By the time I get inside the
Casino, the fire fight is over. What the f*ck?
Then I think "fine" I'll split. So I go to the hub and the screen
goes blank, next thing I know, I'm in the police station being
rewarded for doing something (what I'll never know).
It seems to me that the game plays fine as long as you stay in
the story time line of sequential events. If I do that, then I might
as well play a slide show like Riven.
This was my fourth (and last time) playing this game.
For you MILLIONS of people who are going to say "Bullsh*t" it's your
machine, "I don't have a problem & it's the best game ever!" or "You
must be stupid to have to try the game 4 times" - that is your
OPINION.
Fallout is just another Daggerfall but scripted (much smaller
scale, same cardboard characters). This is my OPINION.
***************************************************
"Live your own life, respect (and in private,
ridicule) each other's opinions and freedoms"
****************************************************
Anti-Spam Notice:
Remove the 'F#' from my email address to reach me...
****************************************************
Heckle
Daniel Ban wrote:
> I do think one legitimate criticism of Fallout is that the player does
> not get enough info during the game on a single play-through to really
> know how to handle the different quests. For example, you cannot really
> ask anyone in Junktown for the dirt on Doc Morbid. The game would
> definitely benefit by having more clues to the player's quest options
> scattered around. That being said, Fallout is still great, and I would
> encourage you to try it again.
Ok, I am properly chastised. I did try a couple of other methods with
dealing with the Dr., but my character was a "Mad Max" kind of
fighter-type, so my stealth/thief skills were low. I guess the reason I
got so bored with the game as a whole was the fact that there was very
little information given about how to complete the various tasks.
Another example in Junktown was the quest you get to find dirt on the
gang there (after defeating the gambling dude). I spent about three
hours trying everything I could think of to try and get dirt on these
guys, all to no avail. Or when I went to the authorities in the Hub with
the info gained from Dr. Morbid's lab (after finding out who Bob was),
and not even have the option of telling them about it. The lack of info
would not have been so bad though if there wasn't the time limit on the
water chip quest. It made me feel rushed, and that makes me easily
frustrated.
After reading all the good reviews and comments about the game, I
wanted to like it, I really did. I loved that it was an RPG set in a
setting other than high fantasy. I wanted to explore out the wastes and
cities, and see what little "eggs" were lying around (this was my
favorite thing to do in Daggerfall. Travel to the different cities and
see the different architecture and dress, etc.). But I just didn't feel
I had the time, since you have a time limit and info on the chip is
sparse to say the least. I would have never found the chip, actually, if
I hadn't gone to a walkthrough.
Heckle
Adrian Stütz
Douglas J. Rener <drener@F#erols.com> wrote in article
<3539e36d...@news.erols.com>...
You are totally right! i play it in version 1.2 ( uk version?), and there
are a lot of bugs in it.
these are not bugs found occasionally, or because my machine has a weird
configuration, EVERY time you play it, everybody gets the same bug and no,
there is still no bugfix for them and there likely will never be after the
departure of the main game designers.
the quests are not listed as done, or as given, the npc-conversation ist
faulty ( you insult somebody to death, and he greets you friendly, telling
you his name...), you dont get messages you are supposed to get...
you often even cannot finish a quest successfully because they think
suddenly they have never talked to you before and give you the same quest
again.
i talked to a lot of persons owning either the same fallout version, the
german version or even the us-version, and they all had the same bugs.
very amusing is the part in the fallout-faq where it is stated that this
quest was left out of the game, you get it, but you cannot solve it because
it s not even programmed!!!
this really runied a lot of the game experience, i would not only compare
it with daggerfall, but also with ultima online! and there people are also
angry!
i played fallout the right way, solved nearly all possible quests, tried
them even in different approaches, but still will not play it more than
once. ( you can solve quests in different matters without playing the game
more than once! i always try all ways i can think of and the program
handles, and then decide which is the best for me).
it IS a good game, but certainly not a game without its heavy faults so
that one has to fanatically defend it!!!
and because of great detail, great gaming world.:
there are actually only the main towns, outside are only random encounters
of a very short and primitive way. think of all the might and magic games,
they would hide there something interesting, give you there a new quest and
would really reward you for detailed searches in the main areas AND the
outer world. and in fallout besides the main points where you have to go (
and will stumble across), nothing really happens, all those hexes are
totally useless besides some small fight at a very random basis.
fallout has the potential, but alas!, as often it was not worked out well
enough to become a REAL big hit! because of no other competition we all
still think it is the best out now ( whis is still quite possible), but
that does not neccessarily mean that it is a good game.
i can only hope that fallout 2, which will not have any dramatic changes to
the engine/graphics ( which is ok by me) concentrates on story, is
COMPLETELY BUGFREE, and addes this additional things besides trhe main
story ( like for example the demo-town, this could have been a town just
anywhere which you only find when you exlore the worldmap by your own
whithout a single hint of the main story. you dont need it to win the game,
but if you are of the expolrer type or just want to get everything out of
the game, this would be great! not just an encouter with 1 radscorpion, a
whole town with some npc and a problem to solve)...
face it, if this would not be such a good game ( and it is good but there
is a LOT to improve ) and we are desperate for a good rpg for such a long
time, then nobody would accept a buginfested game again.
and no, this is not only my opinion and therefore doesnt count compared to
the 38000 other posts in this newsgroup.
--
ADRIAN STÜTZ
Known and feared as : MEGACOLD DRAGON -==(UDIC)==-
a920...@unet.univie.ac.at
homepage: http://unet.univie.ac.at/~a9203444/
" The earlier you die, the longer you are dead"
George
On 19 Apr 1998 15:51:36 GMT, "Adrian Stütz"
<a920...@unet.univie.ac.at> wrote:
>COMPLETELY BUGFREE, and addes this additional things besides trhe main
>story ( like for example the demo-town, this could have been a town just
>anywhere which you only find when you exlore the worldmap by your own
>whithout a single hint of the main story. you dont need it to win the game,
See, this would have been a great alternative to those useless "city
ruins" on the map. I was very disappointed the first time I stopped
in one of those and didn't find as much as a group of hobos.
The great thing about having a lot of non-sequitor quests is it gives
you a way to build up your character(s) without resorting to the
notorious "CRPG 5-hour monster bash" loops. That's one of the things
I really, REALLY liked about the M&M series (at least 3, 4, and 5; I
haven't played 1 and 2): you could build up your characters by
adventuring, instead of making piles of hapless monsters. (Well,
alright, you made piles of monster carcasses too, but that was
secondary to completing a quest.)
Another thing I'd like to have seen more of in Fallout has already
been mentioned before: morale. I mean come on, is a group of raiders
really going to stand there and keep shooting at you if they've just
witnessed you dichotomize their leader in single gatling laser
barrage? Most of them would probably run for the dunes, while an
occasional vengeful raider might charge you.
I also find it a little hard to believe that some of the NPCs would be
as acidic as they were to someone wearing power armor and brandishing
a bazooka.
Ahh well.
George
On Sat, 18 Apr 1998 22:50:23 +1200, Heckle <hec...@primary.net> wrote:
>in good with the power structure. I went to the doctor to get healed
>after a particularly nasty fight in the wastes (first time I had felt
>the need to go to him), and found out about this cannibalism thing. I
>was trying to play the Champion type of character, and given the
>options, decided to waste the doctor. Well, when I get back into town
>everyone is trying to kill me. No questions, no chance to explain myself
Actually, I have no problem offing Doc Morbid and his croonies without
retribution from the local law.
Junktown does seem to have a lot of problems, though. Once, I did the
Skulz quest, where you swipe the urn from the bar. Well, I had a
thiefish character, so I broke into the bar during the day (when it's
locked up and the bartender is asleep) and stole the urn. It said my
attempt was clumsy, but who the hell cares, because I was the only one
who saw it. So anyway, the quest goes textbook for a while; I show
the urn to Vinnie, go talk to Lars, and later that night me and the
boys are in the bar. Well, guess who the first person the bartender
attacks is? ME!!! It was a deliberate strike at me, even dictated by
the play-by-play. But it gets worse.
I was pretty well armed, so I just say, "Alright, fuck you," and
disentegrate him with my Alien Blaster. At that point, everyone is
just standing there while I end turns in combat. Ten turns later and
everyone is still standing around. Well, I wanted the exps for the
"risky turn against the Skulz," so I open fire on them. So then the
fight goes textbook, with the police and me beating up the hapless
Skulz. So then combat ends. Or so I thought. Right after the little
combat window closes, it opens right back up, and I know I'm in for
it. Yep, sure enough, the law decides they're pissed at me now for
taking out the bartender. So at this point I have no choice but to
fight my way out of Junktown (a menial task with the Alien Blaster,
but still very discouraging after helping them with Gizmo and trying
to help with the Skulz).
To top it off, for some bizaar reason Dogmeat started following me.
The problem was, I was wearing combat armor, not leather: I didn't
even OWN leather armor. And I didn't feed him either. He just
started following me. Even worse, I didn't solve the "canine
conundrum" first. Dogmeat would only be my NPC in that one part of
Junktown! And I couldn't get him to join proper because, well, he was
already in my party. Kind of a catch-22. I needed to get him in my
party, but I couldn't because he was in my party (but he really
wasn't). Ugh.
The worst consistent problem with the game, though, is the omniscient
people. I mean, you silently whack one guy in his house where you're
the only possible witness and suddenly the whole town KNOWS you did
it. Every guard attacks you, and all the villagers call you an
asshole. The stupid thing is they turn on you even if the other guy
starts the shooting (like Bob the Iguana Bit peddler).
Don't you wish justice was that black and white in reality?
John M Clancy
(snip)
Great response you said everything I was going to.
> The SuperMutants at the Watershed. You even admit that there were
> probably non-fighting methods around this but you were too "bored" to
> deal with it. Well, I think that shows a real lack of imagination. You
> can sneak past the super Mutants using stealth; you can use speach
> skills to outsmart Harry and then just walk past him; or you can blast
> Harry's ugly mug to hell.
You can also be captured by Harry and then you become a prisoner
at the Military base. I Escaped and blew up the Military base
from the inside. The Super Mutants never knew what hit them.
> There are numerous examples of the fact that FallOut can be played in
> true role playing fashion. If you play as a pure fighter, you can solve
> the game, and that may even be the path of least resistance. However,
> you CAN solve the game without having to fight many of the major
> battles.
Very True
(snip)
Bruce Gottfred
This is a good thread. I thought there was something wrong with me for
disliking such a universally praised game. Now that I can see there are
others, I can come out of the closet.
So, I like the concept behind the game. The game has style that few can
match. The graphics and combat system are perfect. And wow, what a manual.
Maybe there's a good story somewhere too.
But the quest scripting really was done poorly. The reasons I quit this game
half through are similar to those given by George and Heckle. I constantly
felt that I had to follow the script or the story would collapse. It was not
open-ended, in fact it felt as fragile as an adventure game. I found I was
looking at the game as a puzzle. A lot of branching if-then-else statements
in which I had to make the right decisions or come to a dead end.
I couldn't role-play, I had to act. Act in a play in which I didn't have a
script. Case in point: Talking to the store-owner in Junktown, I pick one of
the smart-ass reponses in the the dialog. I'm a bit of a smart-ass in real
life and I delude myself into thinking that it's endearing. Suddenly he
doesn't want to talk to me anymore. Numerous quests lost. Oh well, reload
saved game. At least he didn't try to kill me like most of them do.
Sometimes you're trying to follow the script and all of the sudden you're
under attack. Why would some weedy monk with a knife try to attack a guy in
a powersuit and an energy rifle just for asking a question?
I just started the game up again last night after a long absence (CC2 and
TA). Got pissed off again. Maybe I'll eventually finish it, though. I've
got high hopes for FO2. If they put some serious work in the quests and NPC
behavior it could be a winner.
-----------Bruce Gottfred----------------------
Call me apathetic...
I don't care.
--------...@cyberus.ca-------------------
George
>I couldn't role-play, I had to act. Act in a play in which I didn't have a
>script. Case in point: Talking to the store-owner in Junktown, I pick one of
>the smart-ass reponses in the the dialog. I'm a bit of a smart-ass in real
That's another thing that got me. In my first game, I had saved the
town and beat the Skulz. I started talking to Killian again, and he
goes on and on about all the stuff he knows. Suddenly I see the,
"Well you just know everything, don't you?" option. Sitting there.
Taunting me for even considering those other PC responses.
I naively assumed Killian would just laugh it off since I saved his
pissant little heap o' hovels. But nooooo. He frowns and mumbles at
me. Next time I talk to him he's apparently forgotten all the good
I'd done for him. He's like "Oh, YOU again. What do YOU want?"
In fact, the only NPC I encountered with a sense of humor was Harold
(I think) the mutant (maybe he was flakey too, I didn't take all the
branches). I was sure he'd get pissed when, during his long-winded
tale of his mutation, I said, "You farted to the Northwest?!" He
actually laughed!
I'd definitely like to see more NPC's like that, who don't take
themselves so seriously that a little sarcasm is interpreted as a
gunshot to the groin.
>Sometimes you're trying to follow the script and all of the sudden you're
>under attack. Why would some weedy monk with a knife try to attack a guy in
>a powersuit and an energy rifle just for asking a question?
Exactly! Since they're still alive, I guess they aren't under the
same moral constraints the player is when dealing with people. :)
Joe Hendrix
WARNING: This post probably contains Fallout plot spoilers.
George wrote in message <353a268...@news.feist.com>...
>On 19 Apr 1998 15:51:36 GMT, "Adrian Stütz"
><a920...@unet.univie.ac.at> wrote:
>The great thing about having a lot of non-sequitor quests is it gives
>you a way to build up your character(s) without resorting to the
>notorious "CRPG 5-hour monster bash" loops. That's one of the things
>I really, REALLY liked about the M&M series (at least 3, 4, and 5; I
>haven't played 1 and 2): you could build up your characters by
>adventuring, instead of making piles of hapless monsters. (Well,
>alright, you made piles of monster carcasses too, but that was
>secondary to completing a quest.)
Fallout has more varied and interesting side quests then just about any RPG
I have played. Technically, I have been able to beat Fallout in only 40
something days by only traveling to the hub, the brotherhood, the cathedral
and the mutant base. (Admitadly I already had played through the game and
knew the plot, but it still could be done.) I probably only saw about 1/2
the game my first time through. I missed the lower glow levels, talking to
Saul and getting the Necropolis water pump working, the thieves guild quest,
the kidnapping of Tandi, the water thief in Vault 13, taking down the
regulators, solving the missing water caravans quest and much more. Did you
actually complete all these? And you still think there aren't enough quests
to raise exp?
>Another thing I'd like to have seen more of in Fallout has already
>been mentioned before: morale. I mean come on, is a group of raiders
>really going to stand there and keep shooting at you if they've just
>witnessed you dichotomize their leader in single gatling laser
>barrage? Most of them would probably run for the dunes, while an
>occasional vengeful raider might charge you.
It seemed like people ran away from me a lot once I got the powerful
weapons. One of my friends played an evil character and he said the police
automatically ran away from him in desert encounters.
>I also find it a little hard to believe that some of the NPCs would be
>as acidic as they were to someone wearing power armor and brandishing
>a bazooka.
>
>Ahh well.
In many cases you really could intimidate characters (like the raiders that
captured Tandi)
I haven't played Fallout for a long time now, but I remember it to be an
awesome RPG, probably the best one I've ever played.
---
Joe Hendrix
Joe...@mail.utexas.edu
Adrian Stütz
Joe Hendrix <Joe...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote in article
<6heiih$o1a$1...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>...
actually i solved all of your mentioned quest the first and only time i
played fallout.
if those quests were all completely bug-free, i would agree that the
MAIN-quest in MAIN towns are enough both in number and in quality. (
actually all who did not find them the first time are not playing the
game). but it is quite limited to these 10-12 towns, all the exploring
thing is not rewarded. there should be the same quest-types found somewhere
in the worldmap which can be found just by exploring. it is so easy to find
all quests when you dont even have to search for them and therefore you
never had the feeling that you actually had to try before the quest is
completed.
i dont want to play a game as fast as possible with the minimum quests
amount done to solve a game ( therefore i can not understand people who
miss halve of the quests in a game)( and therefore a timelimit is the worst
thing one could think of!!!), i want to fully solve a game, 100%, see
everything, done everything, and this is hinted in fallout, but not
consequentely worked out.
what is the use of a big worldmap when there is nothing besides the main
towns in there?
because if then there would be again 50% more quests/story, THEN i would
say ( in a bugfree concept), this is TRUELLY a (hardcore)RPG, one of the
best around.
this is one reason why i liked m&m so much and am liking the exile-serie so
much. there is a huge world, AND there are a lot of sidequests/towns hidden
somewhere, and you get rewarded for thorough searches. ( lot of hidden
rooms...).
there is nothing really hidden in fallout, you find some books in town 1,
and some ammo in some desks later, but did you ever find a good armor
somewhere, of a supergun ( not a random encounter, a scripted one!). no you
have to just buy your combat armor, nothing in the story rewards you with
your work so far that you now finally get a better equipment ( i know, the
power armor later, but this is just the last stage).
Again, i have to point out, that i too, find fallout good to very good, but
there are still so many things to improve to get a similiar experience as a
got with ultima4,5or 7 part 1, the m&m series or even ultima underworld, or
the older AD&D-series.
and please, improve the npc/partymember-inventory exchange system!!!
Thomas Stockheim
Charlie Neo <cha...@swiftech.net.sg> writes:
>Come on . I get bored playing fallout in just 5 hours . Fallout can't be
>that good ..... or that RPG games just suck in 1997 .
>There is a major flaw in the game . The stealing ability . U dont even
>need to tag the skill. just save and try over and over . once u get some
You idiot, there's your mistake .... by abusing the save-game feature
like this, you have made it impossible to fail at stealing, sure the
game is too easy then.
-snip-
>Any one got any comments on this ?
Yes, go away and play Diablo, you troll !
Thomas
Thomas Stockheim
Heckle <hec...@primary.net> writes:
>John M Clancy wrote:
>> You are looking at a Mona Lisa and saying the picture
>> frame sucks. Big Deal. What about the storyline, the
>> excellent game engine, The frredom to solve quests in
>> any order, the freedom to play various character types?
>>
>> Get serious.
> The game engine was good, but the rest has been done before. I didn't
>get the feeling that I could solve quests in any order, but instead felt
>kind of rushed to find the water chip (not sure what is beyond that,
>since I stopped there for reasons explained below).
> Fallout fell into the same trap that most "open ended" CRPG's do: tons
>of the same exact quest, just with a different object and delivery
>point. Almost every single quest I ran into was a "Get item A, bring to
>destination B" or " Kill A, report to B". There was still no real
Huh ? Did you play Fallout, or Daggerfall ?
>"roleplaying", as you had to perform deeds in a certain order or you're
>screwed, even if it means doing things out of character. As an example,
>let me use the first major disappointment I had with the game. n
>Junktown (I think that's the town, anyway) there's the Dr. that's
>cutting up humans and sending the parts to the big trading town. Well, I
>had already helped the boss of Junktown kill the gambling guy, so I was
>in good with the power structure. I went to the doctor to get healed
>after a particularly nasty fight in the wastes (first time I had felt
>the need to go to him), and found out about this cannibalism thing. I
>was trying to play the Champion type of character, and given the
>options, decided to waste the doctor. Well, when I get back into town
>everyone is trying to kill me. No questions, no chance to explain myself
You don't get attacked for killing the doctor, but maybe you forgot to
put your weapon away after it ?
>or prove what the doctor was doing (which would have been easy given the
>amount of evidence in his basement). Just BAM, forced to flee. There
>were others throughout the game like this incident, but the worst was
>finally getting to where the water chip was and finding it guarded by
>tons of super mutants with super weapons. I'm sure there is a
>non-violent way out of that situation, but I was fed up and bored with
>the game by that point. Was the same thing as every other CRPG that's
Oh, because you are to stupid to find the non-violent way, the game sucks ?
Try the game again, it's much better then you think.
Thomas
Bruce Gottfred
George wrote:
> I naively assumed Killian would just laugh it off since I saved his
> pissant little heap o' hovels. But nooooo. He frowns and mumbles at
> me. Next time I talk to him he's apparently forgotten all the good
> I'd done for him. He's like "Oh, YOU again. What do YOU want?"
You've got a good memory for these things. I can't remember too many of them,
though there were quite a number of similar experiences. One I just remembered
that REALLY annoyed me was on the power armor quest. First time in the
brotherhood, looking around, guy tells me to talk to so-and-so about a part
(something motivator?) needed to repair a suit of power armor. OK, noted. Keep
looking around talking to everyone. Come to the guy with the part and I take a
different selection when I have a chance to ask about the part. I'll get it
later, I reason. I go out, perform many heroic deeds, come back and try to ask
this guy about the part. No selection about the part comes up. I go back to the
first guy. He asks if I've got it yet, nothing else. I try everything I can
think of to get that part, but a dialog selection never comes up. I try every
combo imaginable using the "ask him about____" selection and all I get is "I know
nothing about that". So, its back to an old, OLD save to try it again.. I knew
what I wanted to ask this guy, but the script wouldn't let me. Frustrating.
Patrick Mcginley
Bruce Gottfred (gott...@cyberus.noklic.ca) scribbled something about:
: George wrote:
: > I naively assumed Killian would just laugh it off since I saved his
: > pissant little heap o' hovels. But nooooo. He frowns and mumbles at
: > me. Next time I talk to him he's apparently forgotten all the good
: > I'd done for him. He's like "Oh, YOU again. What do YOU want?"
While I do like fallout, I know there are problems with the threads. But
these posts are nothing but nitpicks.
i.e.: The NPC's didn't like it when I played a smartass. geez, really?!
Wow, in real life, everyone loves it!
or the game allows me to cheat, or I coulnd't follow the plot, or I have
quests that aren't original, or you could save and try something again,
blah blah blah...
It's like, every complaint that could be made about any RPG. Yes, there
are problems with threads: valid point. But could you come up with a more
original complaint, or if not, name a game that meets all the criteria for
the perfect RPG. Healthy criticism is one thing, but complaining about how
NPC's react to your playing style is another.
As for having to "Act out a part," if you were really interested in role
playing, after pissing someone off, you would bear the fruit of your
actions. If you are playing a smartass, get ready to be smacked once in a
while (just like in real life...)
--
================================================================
Patrick McGinley * Hey kids, really bored? Well then
Net Admin * find something constructive or
and all around swanky guy * visit me at www.execpc.com/~patrick
Matt Rollefson
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg pat...@earth.execpc.com (Patrick Mcginley) writes:
>Bruce Gottfred (gott...@cyberus.noklic.ca) scribbled something about:
>: George wrote:
>: > I naively assumed Killian would just laugh it off since I saved his
>: > pissant little heap o' hovels. But nooooo. He frowns and mumbles at
>: > me. Next time I talk to him he's apparently forgotten all the good
>: > I'd done for him. He's like "Oh, YOU again. What do YOU want?"
>While I do like fallout, I know there are problems with the threads. But
>these posts are nothing but nitpicks.
>i.e.: The NPC's didn't like it when I played a smartass. geez, really?!
>Wow, in real life, everyone loves it!
The problem is that the game doesn't allow you to *recover* from being
a smart-ass -- so far as I know, there's no way to go back and apologize
to Killian, or wait a while for him to get over it, or remind him of
all the good things you did for his town. He just won't talk to you
again. And that's not to mention the folks who simply pull a gun on you
and force you to kill them -- no way to get them to surrender, no way
to surrender yourself, no way to run away even in any practical way --
once they pull the gun, someone's gonna die.
Not that these ruin the game by any means -- they just cut in to your
suspension of disbelief, making it a bit harder to treat the game as
a virtual world, instead of a virtual puzzle set up by some very clever
programmers. Points off, not a drop in letter grade, if you see what
I mean. :)
>or the game allows me to cheat, or I coulnd't follow the plot, or I have
>quests that aren't original, or you could save and try something again,
>blah blah blah...
>It's like, every complaint that could be made about any RPG. Yes, there
>are problems with threads: valid point. But could you come up with a more
>original complaint, or if not, name a game that meets all the criteria for
>the perfect RPG. Healthy criticism is one thing, but complaining about how
>NPC's react to your playing style is another.
When they react in a way that (a) makes it impossible to continue on
certain quests, and (b) can't be recovered from, it's a legitimate gripe,
especially when the "playing style" was just being a bit of a wise guy.
I mean, in real life people are not going to hate you forever for one
smart remark -- if they're important to you, you'll see they took it
badly and go and apologize. In Fallout, you don't have that choice,
because they either won't talk to you, or have just pulled a gun on
you. No wonder there aren't many people around in these post-apocolyptic
cities -- everyone's got such a short fuse that they've all killed
each other off! :)
>As for having to "Act out a part," if you were really interested in role
>playing, after pissing someone off, you would bear the fruit of your
>actions. If you are playing a smartass, get ready to be smacked once in a
>while (just like in real life...)
Well, in real life people don't pull out handguns and start shooting after
you make one smart remark... Also, in real life unless you kill the person
real quickly, it's generally possible to negotiate, even after bullets
start to fly.
Just to clarify, I loved Fallout -- I agree it's one of the best RPG's
ever. The fact that you can approach the game in several different ways,
and be able to *succeed*, is an amazing credit to the developers. But
there's definitely room for improvement, and other than the initial
poster and one or two others, that's what I think most people in this
thread are trying to point out. Hopefully the folks at Interplay are
listening and will keep these comments in mind as they work on
Fallout 2...
Rollie
Thrasher
> For example, I go to JunkTown and set up a crime boss (the fat
>guy behind the desk) using a tape recorder in my hand. I go back to
>the sheriff(?) and he does a bust and I go a long to help. Well all
>hell breaks loose and the crime boss is dead. Then I get blamed for a
>bad bust and am told to leave town (even though when the bust went
>down, I start OUTSIDE of the casino). By the time I get inside the
>Casino, the fire fight is over. What the f*ck?
You are doing something seriously wrong. I've done that scene 20 times
and never had a "scripting" problem. What do you mane you start
outside the casino? You get teleported to a spot outside the casino?
Or did you just show up on your own and pull a cowboy stunt?
George
>knew the plot, but it still could be done.) I probably only saw about 1/2
>the game my first time through. I missed the lower glow levels, talking to
>Saul and getting the Necropolis water pump working, the thieves guild quest,
>the kidnapping of Tandi, the water thief in Vault 13, taking down the
>regulators, solving the missing water caravans quest and much more. Did you
>actually complete all these? And you still think there aren't enough quests
>to raise exp?
I completed all those but the Tandi (I'd already wiped out the
raiders) and water thief ones (which is the most obscure quest, IMO)
my first time through. I still couldn't complete the basement of the
Cathedral. (Granted, I hadn't gone to the Brotherhood and wasn't
bothering with energy weapons. I had an SMG, Tesla Armor, and
Dogmeat. 101% small guns skill. That's it.)
>It seemed like people ran away from me a lot once I got the powerful
>weapons. One of my friends played an evil character and he said the police
>automatically ran away from him in desert encounters.
Well, I've never seen healthy cops run. The only time I see people
consistently run is when they've been crippled or severely wounded.
>In many cases you really could intimidate characters (like the raiders that
>captured Tandi)
That I haven't seen either. Most of the raiders attacked me if I
brandished a weapon. There were no options to intimidate them.
As for the leader, he'd let me buy Tandi's freedom, fight for it, or
something else that just started a fight.
George
>You've got a good memory for these things. I can't remember too many of them,
>though there were quite a number of similar experiences. One I just remembered
>that REALLY annoyed me was on the power armor quest. First time in the
>brotherhood, looking around, guy tells me to talk to so-and-so about a part
>(something motivator?) needed to repair a suit of power armor. OK, noted. Keep
Systolic Motivator I think. At least you got the guy to mention it.
Every time I talked to him he told me to piss off. If I took another
branch he'd kick me out of the complex!
>looking around talking to everyone. Come to the guy with the part and I take a
>different selection when I have a chance to ask about the part. I'll get it
>later, I reason. I go out, perform many heroic deeds, come back and try to ask
>this guy about the part. No selection about the part comes up. I go back to the
I just stole one out of his locker.
Actually, the first time I got there I'd freed that one Brotherhood
guy from the Hub and had a high enough karma that they offered me one.
George
On 20 Apr 1998 09:56:47 GMT, "Adrian Stütz"
<a920...@unet.univie.ac.at> wrote:
>Again, i have to point out, that i too, find fallout good to very good, but
>there are still so many things to improve to get a similiar experience as a
>got with ultima4,5or 7 part 1, the m&m series or even ultima underworld, or
>the older AD&D-series.
>and please, improve the npc/partymember-inventory exchange system!!!
That was my whole point. Just because it's a great game doesn't mean
we should try to hide the oversights and weaknesses.
I could make similar comments about those other games too. U7 was
almost TOO open -- I could spend hours just farting around with all
the objects (I actually found the Trinsic "magic room" myself this
way!). It was often more fun to see how various objects interacted
than to get on with the story! M&M, although my overall favorite RPG
series, has a tendency to get absolutely ludicrous by the end
(piloting megacharacters in an otherwise sword and sorcery game into
spaceships and underground Lord Xeen factories). The old goldbox
series (also a favorite) would get sooo annoying with all those random
encounters. Infinite numbers of monsters you'd kill with no sense of
having disrupted the ecosystem at all :).
Patrick Mcginley
George (whor...@nospamforu.oneyear.com) scribbled something about:
: On 20 Apr 1998 09:56:47 GMT, "Adrian Stütz"
: <a920...@unet.univie.ac.at> wrote:
[snip]
: spaceships and underground Lord Xeen factories). The old goldbox
: series (also a favorite) would get sooo annoying with all those random
: encounters. Infinite numbers of monsters you'd kill with no sense of
: having disrupted the ecosystem at all :).
Actually, the first - Pools of Radiance had finite encounters. Remember
clearing out the slums? It was only in later games when random encounters
became ludicrous. In PoR, you would eventually kill the main thing in an
area, and the area would clear out on it's own - the vampire in Valhegian,
etc. Good game, but the same reason I couldn't get into the Forgotten
Realms ones, too much pointless fighting...
Patrick Mcginley
Matt Rollefson (rol...@jeffrhap.apple.com) scribbled something about:
: The problem is that the game doesn't allow you to *recover* from being
: a smart-ass -- so far as I know, there's no way to go back and apologize
: to Killian, or wait a while for him to get over it, or remind him of
: all the good things you did for his town. He just won't talk to you
: again. And that's not to mention the folks who simply pull a gun on you
: and force you to kill them -- no way to get them to surrender, no way
: to surrender yourself, no way to run away even in any practical way --
: once they pull the gun, someone's gonna die.
True, there could have been a surrender/beg mercy/what have you option for
when battling intelligent foes.
: Not that these ruin the game by any means -- they just cut in to your
: suspension of disbelief, making it a bit harder to treat the game as
: a virtual world, instead of a virtual puzzle set up by some very clever
: programmers. Points off, not a drop in letter grade, if you see what
: I mean. :)
Point made.
: >or the game allows me to cheat, or I coulnd't follow the plot, or I have
True, true, true! But I guess it makes people more careful (which, I
concede, forces people to play unlike they should be. I played a dumb
bruser, but was forced to be nice at every turn...) However,
are you sure there isn't something in there already tied to charisma that
makes people accept your comments, because I know my karma of 80+ didn't
do much? If not, maybe in Fallout II there should be.
: Just to clarify, I loved Fallout -- I agree it's one of the best RPG's
: ever. The fact that you can approach the game in several different ways,
: and be able to *succeed*, is an amazing credit to the developers. But
: there's definitely room for improvement, and other than the initial
: poster and one or two others, that's what I think most people in this
: thread are trying to point out. Hopefully the folks at Interplay are
: listening and will keep these comments in mind as they work on
: Fallout 2...
Very true, I saw lots of room for improvement also, but overall, I guess
the potential is so great I am willing to overlook the inconsistancies. My
complaints would border on not enough U7 type using everything that isn't
nailed down.
: Rollie
Trevor Barrie
In article <353a268...@news.feist.com>,
George <whor...@nospamforu.oneyear.com> wrote:
>Another thing I'd like to have seen more of in Fallout has already
>been mentioned before: morale. I mean come on, is a group of raiders
>really going to stand there and keep shooting at you if they've just
>witnessed you dichotomize their leader in single gatling laser
>barrage?
Yeah, I was once attacked by raiders, and though I only had a run of the
mill pistol, I got the initiative and critically hit and killed two of them,
blowing away half of their chests in the process. After I got finished
thinking "Man, am I a badass or what?":) I remember being disappointed that
the rest of the raiders didn't head for the hills like sensible people.
Bruce Gottfred
Patrick Mcginley wrote:
> As for having to "Act out a part," if you were really interested in role
> playing, after pissing someone off, you would bear the fruit of your
> actions. If you are playing a smartass, get ready to be smacked once in a
> while (just like in real life...)
Sorry, I've been a smartass all my life and I've never been "smacked". I've
also never had anyone pull a gun on me or refuse to talk to me again. I've
only been flamed. :)
It's not that I don't like Fallout; I said in another post that there are a
lot of great things about it. But these aren't nitpicks either, these are
examples of problems with the game. My beef is that the game feels too
fragile to role-play in a meaningful way. Lots of simple choices in
conversations lead to dead-ends with many characters that you cannot recover
from. You cannot bribe, beg, threaten or otherwise coerce them to tell you
what they know after you have hurt their feelings (boo hoo) or acted too
inquisitive. You cannot get them to put down that spear once they get annoyed
with you. You must turn them to ashes with your flame-thrower...
OK, fantasy time. For Fallout2 here's what I'd like to see...
Model NPC's reactions to you by their FEAR of you as well as how much they
like you. Power armor + Big gun = lots of fear. They will answer your
questions. There should be different conversation scripts depending on how
they perceive you, ie - script A = like you and afraid (flattery and nervous
laughter), script B = dislike you and afraid (very polite), script C = don't
know you (who are you? let me tell you a long story...), script D = dislike
you and don't fear you (you talkin' to me?).
All scripts would be carefully debugged to get rid any logical
inconsistancies. You could usually get the info you needed out of them even
if you took the wrong choice in a script. But of course if you were
roleplaying a badass maybe you wouldn't WANT to apologize...
Characters would have different roles depending on how you played. The guy
that stood up to you when you were the badass (and had to be killed) might
join your party if you played Peter Pureheart. Similarly, Joey the slaver
that would be killed by Peter would team up with the badass (though he might
have to watch his back - why does the character get to hold all the caps?).
I think they went too far in Fallout in discouraging the evil player - you can
never get the info you need. But a real bad guy would have ways of making one
talk. Of course there would be other drawbacks to being bad. The townspeople
might poison or ambush you - no provocation! You might wake up with your
partner slitting your throat...
It's hard to model all these subtle nuances of human behavior into a
menu-driven conversation system. But not impossible. With all the resources
out there going into flashy graphics and such, spending some on carefully
editing the conversation trees and if-then-else plots trees would be easy.
And it would add much more to the game than another 10 minutes of FMV.
Wouldn't even need hard-to-get software writers to do it, English graduates
would do just fine. :)
Well, I've got my fingers crossed...
George
On 20 Apr 1998 12:00:33 -0500, pat...@earth.execpc.com (Patrick
Mcginley) wrote:
>the perfect RPG. Healthy criticism is one thing, but complaining about how
>NPC's react to your playing style is another.
And healthy criticism would be what, then? Most of the complaints
I've read have been valid. You admitted yourself there are scripting
problems. I've heard numerous complaints, not just in this thread,
about how the NPCs are unreasonably petulant (much like yourself,
which I guess is why you sympathize with them) and aggressive. The
most prolific complaint I've heard hasn't even appeared here: the
aggravating limited AI of your party's NPCs.
Actually, my only real problem with the game is the omniscient humans.
To really role play the evil thief character you should be able to
silently kill people (or not so silently, but slip out the window
unseen before the fuzz busts in) without the whole world instantly
knowing you did it. Maybe after a while they'd suspect you and exile
you from the town and maybe secretly send bounty hunters after you.
No, that is NOT a trivial problem, because it keeps me from
ROLEPLAYING one kind of character I'd like to role play.
As for the rest of your post, well, we'll just say I'm sorry I bit on
this much of your troll-bait. ;)
Douglas J. Rener
On Mon, 20 Apr 1998 17:51:37 GMT, spect...@hotmail.com (Thrasher)
wrote:
>You are doing something seriously wrong. I've done that scene 20 times
>and never had a "scripting" problem. What do you mane you start
>outside the casino? You get teleported to a spot outside the casino?
>Or did you just show up on your own and pull a cowboy stunt?
I've been through that scene twice (after reloading & restarting
from scratch.)- I report to Killian about the setup and Killian thanks
me for the evidence and asks If I want to stick around for the fun. I
agree and he tells me to report to the guard (near the town entrance).
I do and he says something like "Let's go". Next thing I know, the
screen goes blank and I get put OUTSIDE the casino (near the boxing
ring). I am in combat mode and by the time I make it to the ENTRANCE
of the casino, the firefight is over. I go back to the crimelord's
office and the head guard is standing in the office basically says the
bust is bad and I have to leave town. There is also another body next
to him (that is the crimelords henchman?). When I try to comunicate
with this person, my system hangs and I get booted back to the
desktop.
The game must not like me.
Doesn't make sense if this isn't happening to anyone else.
Oh well...
John M Clancy
George wrote:
>
> On 20 Apr 1998 12:00:33 -0500, pat...@earth.execpc.com (Patrick
> Mcginley) wrote:
>
> >the perfect RPG. Healthy criticism is one thing, but complaining about how
> >NPC's react to your playing style is another.
>
> And healthy criticism would be what, then? Most of the complaints
> I've read have been valid. You admitted yourself there are scripting
> problems. I've heard numerous complaints, not just in this thread,
> about how the NPCs are unreasonably petulant
???
They live in a post nuclear wasteland.
There's no goverment or law. Resorces are scarce
water is at a premium and controlled by a cartel.
There are gangs, mutants, ghouls, drug dealers,
a nutsy "brotherhood", radiation, Deathclaws,
giant scorpions, etc. and you wonder why they
don't bow down and kiss your ass when you smart
off to them? Sheesh! I think I might be a little
testy if I grew up in a place where waking up with
a knife in your back was considered as death from
natural causes.
Fallout was a great game and had flaws. My biggest
problem with the game was the stupid inventory
system. Who ever thought of that should be flogged. :)
But the attitude of the NPCs in this game is entirely
consistent with the theme and story line.
CrazyMax
In article <353A6011...@cyberus.noklic.ca>,
Bruce Gottfred <gott...@cyberus.noklic.ca> wrote:
>But the quest scripting really was done poorly. The reasons I quit this game
>half through are similar to those given by George and Heckle. I constantly
>felt that I had to follow the script or the story would collapse. It was not
>open-ended, in fact it felt as fragile as an adventure game. I found I was
>looking at the game as a puzzle. A lot of branching if-then-else statements
>in which I had to make the right decisions or come to a dead end.
And this is what will happen, if you get too far off course.
I started out playing a psychotic character who made a habit of killing scads
of people for no particular reason (e.g., I did the Shady Sands quests and
then killed everyone in Shady Sands). After awhile the quests started getting
a bit buggy as I went from place to place, until some would just appear on my
PIP completed (sans experience awards), while others couldn't be completed
even if I did everything exactly right.
I tested this by running through again with another character who wasn't a
homocidal maniac. All the quests panned out just as they should.
The logical structure of the game is weak, no doubt about it.
>Sometimes you're trying to follow the script and all of the sudden you're
>under attack. Why would some weedy monk with a knife try to attack a guy in
>a powersuit and an energy rifle just for asking a question?
I had the same reaction: "I'm in power armor carrying a plasma rifle. Is
this guy nuts?"
The game is good, it's just not great. I think part of the popularity of
Fallout is the fact that so few good CRPG's come out that when a decent one
hits the market people tend to sing its praises with more fervor than they
otherwise would.
I like Fallout, but I'm also frustrated with some of the bugs and some of the
silliness. It's no BAK.
(I'm still looking for a CRPG as good as BAK. That game was consistent,
well-done, had a great character system, dozens of side-quests, etc. etc.
Nothing else I've tried comes close to this experience.)
Max
If at first you don't succeed,
destroy all evidence that you tried.
CrazyMax
In article <3543e98a....@news.feist.com>,
whor...@nospamforu.oneyear.com (George) wrote:
>Actually, my only real problem with the game is the omniscient humans.
>To really role play the evil thief character you should be able to
>silently kill people (or not so silently, but slip out the window
>unseen before the fuzz busts in) without the whole world instantly
>knowing you did it. Maybe after a while they'd suspect you and exile
>you from the town and maybe secretly send bounty hunters after you.
>
>No, that is NOT a trivial problem, because it keeps me from
>ROLEPLAYING one kind of character I'd like to role play.
>
I have to agree with this. The first character I created was an *assassin*,
because it appeared that Fallout allowed one to successfully do this sort of
thing. I was majorly disabused of this notion the moment I started slitting
throats in Shady Sands and everybody homed in on me....
I *like* assassins. I *like* playing sneaky, evil people. Fallout doesn't
allow for this. Gun-toting evil people, yes, but not
slip-into-the-house-and-stick-a-knife-in-his-eye evil people.
Or, for you good guys: the ability to sneak up on a guard and cut his throat
without triggering every other guard in the area into combat.
Heckle
CrazyMax wrote:
> Or, for you good guys: the ability to sneak up on a guard and cut his throat
> without triggering every other guard in the area into combat.
Now here I disagree. I was able to do this (basically) during the quest
to save the girl from Shady Sands from the gang as long as I didn't have
any NPC's in the party (whoever thought of the idea to not allow players
to control the NPC's during combat needs to be flogged). I would lure 1
or 2 guards away from the main area of the camp, then use a non-firearm
to kill them, and it didn't draw the others down on top of me. Course,
didn't help me in that case since I couldn't pick the door's lock where
she was being held, and even dynamite didn't open it (ohhh...tough
door).
Heckle
Patrick Mcginley
: Mcginley) wrote:
: No, that is NOT a trivial problem, because it keeps me from
: ROLEPLAYING one kind of character I'd like to role play.
The game doesn't allow you to play ONE type of character you
would like to play: the silent killer - oddly enough, the number of CRPG's
that are out there that allow you to play this type is: 0. Yes, the engine
would be perfect for that type of char, but you can't please everyone, and
The Dark Project should be out sometime in the next 5 years if that's your
bag.
I can see someone purchasing this game to play a specific style, beguiled
by marketing, being angry for being shoehorned into role they don't want.
But, on the other hand, there still is enough freedom to do what you
please, and the engine itself holds great promise for future enhancements
of script and style.
Posters calling this game unplayable because Interplay's programmers
didn't ask Charles Manson to come in as a consultant to how deviant minds
work is kinda shabby. (Although that would look great in an ad!)
: As for the rest of your post, well, we'll just say I'm sorry I bit on
: this much of your troll-bait. ;)
Imagine, someone disagreeing with you! Must be a troll - normal people
don't do that!
Rick Russell
In article <6hipa4$eas...@ix.netcom.com>,
CrazyMax <craz...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> thing. I was majorly disabused of this notion the moment I started slitting
> throats in Shady Sands and everybody homed in on me....
Well, let's look at this realistically. Shady Sands is a large, open
compound. You can't just run around dropping civilians and assume that
no one is going to notice - especially since you had to pass the
guards and several other townspeople on the way in! Since the game
doesn't realistically model line of sight, there's no effective way to
conceal your evil activities from the populace. They should come after
you with a vengeance.
Areas with closed rooms like Junktown and the Hub are another issue,
and you could make an argument for the "silent killer" there. Even
then, the game shouldn't assume that the residents of the city are
completely stupid. If you walk into the library and the guards hear a
blood-curdling scream from the librarian, then they _should_ come
running. I'm sure you're not the first guy who tried to off the
librarian to get lots of copies of Guns & Ammo.
Indeed, I don't really see the Regulators in Adytum just standing
around chatting with each other...
Regulator: "Ya know, I walked around the other side of the tent and
found Hank with his throat slit open."
Skav: "No kiddin'! These things happen in the Wasteland, I guess."
Regulator: "Still, I can't help but wonder if that new guy with the
combat armor is involved. I saw him walking out from behind the tent
holding a bloody Ripper."
Skav: "It was probably just a Deathclaw. Let's ignore the corpse and
pretend like nothing happened."
Rick R.
George
On 22 Apr 1998 10:57:40 -0500, pat...@earth.execpc.com (Patrick
Mcginley) wrote:
>The game doesn't allow you to play ONE type of character you
>would like to play: the silent killer - oddly enough, the number of CRPG's
>that are out there that allow you to play this type is: 0. Yes, the engine
Seems there's some new ground to break in CRPGs then, yes?
>I can see someone purchasing this game to play a specific style, beguiled
>by marketing, being angry for being shoehorned into role they don't want.
>But, on the other hand, there still is enough freedom to do what you
>please,
Any reason you just contradicted yourself?
>Imagine, someone disagreeing with you! Must be a troll - normal people
>don't do that!
Your "smartass" remarks were an obvious attempt to rile me up and show
how "smartass" remarks can start a fight.
Trevor Barrie
>I *like* assassins. I *like* playing sneaky, evil people. Fallout doesn't
>allow for this. Gun-toting evil people, yes, but not
>slip-into-the-house-and-stick-a-knife-in-his-eye evil people.
>
>Or, for you good guys: the ability to sneak up on a guard and cut his throat
>without triggering every other guard in the area into combat.
At the Military Base, I was able to take out the four guards in four
seperate combats without any shots being fired. You can't do it while two
of the guards are within sight of each other, though (which just stands to
reason).
(The real tricky part, of course, was taking them out quickly before the
Three Stooges that the Brotherhood sent blew me away.)
Tormod Haugen
Trevor Barrie wrote:
>
> In article <6hipa4$eas...@ix.netcom.com>,
> At the Military Base, I was able to take out the four guards in four
> seperate combats without any shots being fired. You can't do it while two
> of the guards are within sight of each other, though (which just stands to
> reason).
>
> (The real tricky part, of course, was taking them out quickly before the
> Three Stooges that the Brotherhood sent blew me away.)
;-D
At this point I blew away those with my .223, cleared out the 2 first
levels - and then went back to tell the Brotherhood 'bout the
mutant rising & got those brutes...
Tormod - One-hander & Finesse + .233 Pistol.
--
Tormod Haugen | vapour_dragon(at)hotmail(.)com
Vapour Dragon | -~`揍-~`揍-~帽DIC`~-~`揍-~`揍-
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arena/7371
YES ! This .sig is only _3_ lines ! Err, was...
Thrasher
>The game must not like me.
>Doesn't make sense if this isn't happening to anyone else.
>Oh well...
Sounds like you did everything right, must be a bug. You don't need to
complete that to go on though. Are you having the same kinds of
problems with other quests?
CrazyMax
In article <6hlams$7gj$1...@joe.rice.edu>,
>> thing. I was majorly disabused of this notion the moment I started
slitting
>> throats in Shady Sands and everybody homed in on me....
>
>Well, let's look at this realistically.
Actually, let's not. It's just a game, and I wanted the option to play a
sneaky bastard. I couldn't do this and wish I could. Commando-style rather
than Rambo-style.
CrazyMax
In article <6hltlb$aa1$1...@drollsden.ibm.net>,
tba...@ibm.net (Trevor Barrie) wrote:
>(The real tricky part, of course, was taking them out quickly before the
>Three Stooges that the Brotherhood sent blew me away.)
One of these 'paladins' killed *all three* of my NPC's with a single burst
shot (my guys were lined up and he tried to fire past them). I just stared at
the screen for a moment, then said "what the hell" and trucked on.
max
Dean ODonnell
In article <353b2e80...@news.feist.com>,
George <whor...@nospamforu.oneyear.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 18 Apr 1998 22:50:23 +1200, Heckle <hec...@primary.net> wrote:
[snip]
>
>I was pretty well armed, so I just say, "Alright, fuck you," and
>disentegrate him with my Alien Blaster. At that point, everyone is
>just standing there while I end turns in combat. Ten turns later and
>everyone is still standing around. Well, I wanted the exps for the
>"risky turn against the Skulz," so I open fire on them. So then the
>fight goes textbook, with the police and me beating up the hapless
>Skulz. So then combat ends. Or so I thought. Right after the little
>combat window closes, it opens right back up, and I know I'm in for
>it. Yep, sure enough, the law decides they're pissed at me now for
>taking out the bartender. So at this point I have no choice but to
>fight my way out of Junktown (a menial task with the Alien Blaster,
>but still very discouraging after helping them with Gizmo and trying
>to help with the Skulz).
A similar thing happened to me in the Boneyard, but it lent flavor to the
game. We were in the middle of the assault on the Regulators, the
townspeople had risen up to throw off their oppressors, and they were dying
in droves while I maneuvered my way to them. A crowd of them had just
killed a Regulator and were moving toward another that I could just see at
the edge of my range. She had a sniper rifle and each turn she'd pick off
another townie. I got closer so I had a 65% chance to hit and took the shot
with my modified pistol. I missed, badly, hitting one of the townspeople
and killing him.
I could just see the poor kid run into my line of fire, and, as he crumpled
(in slow motion, of course), my gunslinger shouting, "Noooooo!"
The townspeople turned on me. I tried to talk to Smitty, but all he said
was, "Someone should do something about you," before he started shooting at
me. I had to put a bullet in his head. No choice.
Things were never the same in Adytum after that. Sometimes things just go
bad. I had tried to bring freedom and all I brought was death.
Dean
George
On Sun, 26 Apr 1998 03:37:06 GMT, do...@world.std.com (Dean ODonnell)
wrote:
>A similar thing happened to me in the Boneyard, but it lent flavor to the
>game. We were in the middle of the assault on the Regulators, the
.
.
.
>with my modified pistol. I missed, badly, hitting one of the townspeople
>and killing him.
>
>I could just see the poor kid run into my line of fire, and, as he crumpled
>(in slow motion, of course), my gunslinger shouting, "Noooooo!"
>
>The townspeople turned on me. I tried to talk to Smitty, but all he said
>was, "Someone should do something about you," before he started shooting at
>me. I had to put a bullet in his head. No choice.
Alright, I'll grant you it's not that bad if you think about it like
that. :) I've heard a few other horror stories about "friendly fire"
making unintended enemies. I don't guess I can blame them too much,
since once Ian misfired TWICE and shot me HARD in the back. Twice.
With the .223 pistol. In the basement of the cathedral. In the
middle of a mutant fight. The next round he got sliced in two by a
mutant lieutenant's gatling laser barrage and I about wanted to pat
that ugly green bastard on the back and thank him!
Of course, a few times I pelted an NPC in the middle of a fight and
was sure he'd turn on me, but he remained faithful, so I rewarded him
with some major stimmage. :)
Dean ODonnell
In article <3543c985...@news.feist.com>,
George <whor...@nospamforu.oneyear.com> wrote:
>
>Alright, I'll grant you it's not that bad if you think about it like
>that. :) I've heard a few other horror stories about "friendly fire"
>making unintended enemies. I don't guess I can blame them too much,
>since once Ian misfired TWICE and shot me HARD in the back. Twice.
>With the .223 pistol. In the basement of the cathedral. In the
>middle of a mutant fight. The next round he got sliced in two by a
>mutant lieutenant's gatling laser barrage and I about wanted to pat
>that ugly green bastard on the back and thank him!
It can work the other way too. Last night I was screwing around in the
Cathedral and came across my first Nightkin while I had my entourage of
Follower Scouts (we made quite a parade while going from room to room). The
mutant bastard ripped a clip of chaingun fire and took down a Follower
Scout, for the rest of the battle the FS's were on my side! Even when I
ended combat, they stayed neutral and didn't start shooting at me.
I almost regretted killing them the next time we got into a mutant battle
with mutants who could actually shoot straight. Almost.
>Of course, a few times I pelted an NPC in the middle of a fight and
>was sure he'd turn on me, but he remained faithful, so I rewarded him
>with some major stimmage. :)
In one random encounter with radscorpions I accidentally targetted Dogmeat
instead of the scorp. He turned on me (with good cause) and I had to put
him down. He'd taken a lot of "Oops" shots, but that was the first time I
targeted him (hey, it was a crowded screen, and after reloading I didn't have
enough AP's for an aimed shot). I felt so bad I had to reload a saved game.
Dean
George
On Sun, 26 Apr 1998 20:20:37 GMT, do...@world.std.com (Dean ODonnell)
wrote:
>It can work the other way too. Last night I was screwing around in the
>Cathedral and came across my first Nightkin while I had my entourage of
>Follower Scouts (we made quite a parade while going from room to room). The
>mutant bastard ripped a clip of chaingun fire and took down a Follower
>Scout, for the rest of the battle the FS's were on my side! Even when I
>ended combat, they stayed neutral and didn't start shooting at me.
Actually, I think the follower scouts are temporary NPCs you get to
help you in the cathedral. You get them after talking with that green
mohawk'd chick in the Followers of the Apocalypse joint.
>In one random encounter with radscorpions I accidentally targetted Dogmeat
>instead of the scorp. He turned on me (with good cause) and I had to put
>him down. He'd taken a lot of "Oops" shots, but that was the first time I
>targeted him (hey, it was a crowded screen, and after reloading I didn't have
>enough AP's for an aimed shot). I felt so bad I had to reload a saved game.
That's one of the reasons I try to make called shots whenever I
can--you have a better idea of who you're targeting. Other times I'd
just "look" at a certain area to make sure it was really who I wanted
to target. The crosshair should do that too.
I was playing an evil character once and after rescuing Tandi I took
to totally incapacitating her. She attacked me until I broke her
legs, then she started running off. After combat she was still
friendly.
Now when I got back to Shady Sands, that's a different story. THEN
she decided to turn on me. Guess she figured pops would come to her
rescue. :)