Planescape from Final Fantasy (long)

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Kenny Smith

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Feb 12, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/12/00
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A lot of people probably don't realize just how much influence Final
Fantasy has had on the design of Planescape:Torment. In particular, I'm
talking about the closed-minded people who easily dismiss the Final
Fantasy series because of its console roots, all the while singing
praises of a great CRPG like Torment.

At first I thought I was imagining things while playing Torment ---
drawing parallels between an AD&D game and Final Fantasy games. But
after having read a few articles from the Torment designers openly
praising Final Fantasy, I'm more convinced than ever. Some of Final
Fantasy's influence include:

--strong focus on personal story & inter-PC relationships, where the
"epic save-the-world" cliche becomes a mere background. Most RPGs put
the "epic" in the foreground, and the "personal" becomes an
afterthought. Hell, off the top of my head, I can't even think of any
other computer RPG that has ever done this.

--Weapons systems. In Planescape, like in the Final Fantasies, ALL the
weapons & their upgrades are designed specifically for each PC. Morte
can only have Teeth Weapons (and vise versa). Dak'kon his Karach
blade. Axe for Vhailor, arrows for Nordom, and so forth. The only
exception is that NMO can use some of Annah's gloves. When you find/buy
a weapon, 99% of the time it can only be used by one specific
character. This system is most prominent in Final Fantasy games. For
computer RPGs, it's unheard of.

--Spell Implementation. The first time I saw a mid level offensive
spell in Planescape, I immediately thought about FF7 & FF8. It's a
system where *everything* pauses while the screen pans and centers
around the target to maximize dramatic effect. Then a graphic will show
up (toxic cloud, call lightning, lighning chain, etc) while everything
else is frozen. Most other CRPGs do their spell FX in real time.
Further, high-level Planescape spells actually go as far as showing cut
scenes (or movies), such panning the screen to a scene in space for
Meteorite summons, or any of Planescape FMV summon sequences. I
could've sworn I was playing a Final Fantasy game. The system employed
by Planescape is *exactly* the same as the one used for spells/summons
in FF7 & FF8. The designer Kenneth Lee openly credited Final Fantasy
for his inspiration for this system.

--Storyline. (possible minor spoilers). In both FF7 & Planescape, we
have heroes that slowly discover their past through mysterious
flashbacks. There's even a scene in both games where the hero meets 3
versions of himself, each representing a different side to his psyche.
Then there's the possible merging of the 3 parts to create a whole.
There's also the romantic aspect of the story. In both FF7 &
Planescape, the player controls the hero's romantic involvement with
either the brash, spunky girl (Annah, Tifa) or the pristine, lady-like
woman (FF-Grace, Aeris). Then there's also the part in FF8 & Planescape
where the hero (NMO, Squall) slowly discover that most of the companions
he picked up have a forgotten history/relationship with him.

--The Player Characters (PCs) in Planescape are designed in a very Final
Fantasyish way. Armor for Planescape women are bought at tailors, which
reminded me of the cheesy "dresses" for Final Fantasy women's armor. I
already mentioned the PC-specific weaponry, and the PC's forgotten
history with the main hero. They also created unique music for each PC,
which is a trademark of Final Fantasy games since FF2. Off the top of
my head, I can't think of any other Computer RPG that has ever done this
for every player-character. There's also the heavy focus on optional
background storyline for every PC you pick up. Most CRPGs give you the
PC's background story *when* you meet them, but it's forgotten/neglected
soon afterwards. Occasionally you'll have one or two PCs with optional
storyline that appears in mid-game (ie Coran's lover in BG, Iolo's wife
in UltimaV). In Planescape & FF games, this is true for nearly *all*
members of your party. Additionally, the background storyline for every
PC is stretched out & developed over the course of the game. In fact,
I'd say that the backbone of the Planescape story is in the character
development of your party members. The "epic" part of the story becomes
background to that.

--Those Lim-lims remind me of those Moogles from FFIII (usa). Cute
little creatures with the potential to be lethal, and can only quip
"Pi-Yo!". Moogles served the exact same purpose in FFIII, except they
quipped "Ku-Po!"

--Hero development. In FF7 & FF8, the heroes (Cloud, Squall) usually
have twice as much experience points as their party members. This
effectively makes the hero the strongest character due to his high level
& experience (as opposed to special powers). NMO is the same way
relative to his companions.

Now, let me *emphasize* that any one of the reasons I mentioned above
could be a simple coincidence. However, taken as a whole, I think it
clearly shows the influence Final Fantasy had on Planescape. Add to
that the open admiration of Planescape designers for Final Fantasy (read
the "Thank You" section of the Planescape manual). I hope people
remember this the next time somebody foolishly dismisses Final Fantasy
as just another juvenile "console" game.


Patrick Mcginley

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Feb 12, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/12/00
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I seem to recall Firearm babbling somthing about:
: I am so glad I am not the only one thinking that.

You are forgetting some other parallels! They are:

1. They are both GAMES! For computer like gadgets!
2. Both employ representations of human ALTER EGOS!
3. Nerds made both of them! Only from different parts of the world!
4. Hit Points! Need I say more?
5. Spells! Oh, yeah, someone mentioned this before...
6. From what I hear, both involve devil worship in some way!
7. They both ripped off every RPG to come before them - and both openly
praise other RPG's! Coincidence? My ass!
8. Neither has horribly ugly women you can add to your party - what, do
the developers for both meet together in a secret meeting once a month and
plan strategy or something? What happened to our anti-monopoly laws!
Someone call Janet Reno and her flame throwing tank, or her Japanese
equivalent!

I was thinking they were *really different* until some guy mentioned the
secondary save-the-world aspect. Two teams of genius freethinkers to come
up with the same damn brilliant inovative idea at the same time? You have
me convinced - they were both created by the same people. What's their
angle? I haven't the foggiest, but by God, MAN - You are on to something
bigger than the both of us!

If I don't post again, they have gotten to me! Save yourself!!!
--
transport. motorways & tramlines. starting then stopping. taking off &
landing. the emptiest of feelings. disappointed people. clinging onto
bottles. when it comes it's so, so disappointing. let down and hanging
around. crushed like a bug in the ground. i7yci7cyi** Radiohead

Shawn Gumbleton

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Feb 12, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/12/00
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I hate to be a bitch, but didja have to include the *entire* posting
along with your three-line follow-up?

-Shawn

> The Final Fantasy *series* is good. Final Fantasy VII, and from all
> reports VIII, however, are straight-line adventure game crap. They
> aren't RPGs.
>
> To respond by email, remove "blort" from the front of my email
> address.
> blort...@ou.edu
> Jason McCullough
>
> ".....to identify Flavor Flav as a clown with a clock is to lose sight
> of Public Enemy's goal to inspire, entertain and educate."
> (from www.public-enemy.com)

Jason McCullough

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Feb 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/13/00
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The Final Fantasy *series* is good. Final Fantasy VII, and from all

Silke (Snowball)

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Feb 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/13/00
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You have got to be kidding! The plot may be linear, but there are dozens of
side quests, which have been given much thought, especially in 7. In fact, I
would consider there is much more freedom in FF7 than PST, however, they are
both two of my favorite RPGs of all time.

Firearm

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Feb 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/13/00
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I am so glad I am not the only one thinking that.

There are also other points:

1. Annah's a melee fighter using her fists; so is Tifa in FF7.
2. FFG's a healer; so is Aerith in FF7 (her limit break)
3. Dakkon's character is very similar to that of a Japanese Samurai in
fedural Japan. (no, this has nothing to do with the FFs...)


On Sat, 12 Feb 2000 18:31:56 -0600, Kenny Smith <ksm...@nospam.com>
wrotf:

William

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Feb 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/13/00
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In article <38A5FB7B...@nospam.com>,
Kenny Smith <ksm...@nospam.com> wrote:

(snip list of similarities)

Those are some good points, but Torment was superior in one way: the
ending. The FF games all end with a typical fight Foozle ending. In
Torment, there was a choice as to how the game could end. I liked that a
lot.

But yes, they are quite similar in some ways. And, when I first saw
Celestial Host, I thought "That's Torment's answer to Knights of the
Round..."

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

Zyan

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Feb 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/13/00
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Yep. The real reason why I enjoyed PST so much is the depth of the
characterisation and plot. And I really like to thank BIS for being
"influenced" by the ground-breaking FF series so that after all these years,
I can finally play a RPG that has such a great story and character
interaction.

RPG developers, please make more of such RPGs. There are enough action RPGs
and hack/slash RPGs out there now to fulfil the killer instincts of mine. I
need something intelligent and emotional too.


Firearm <fs...@hotnospamail.com> wrote in message
news:38a618bf...@news.hknet.com...

Zyan

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Feb 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/13/00
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Yeah, and also the "hidden" characters. Nordom in PST (Vhaillor is not
really that well hidden). Vincent in FF7 (Yuki is still OK).


Firearm <fs...@hotnospamail.com> wrote in message
news:38a618bf...@news.hknet.com...

Miles Osborne

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Feb 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/13/00
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In article <38A5FB7B...@nospam.com>, Kenny Smith
<ksm...@nospam.com> writes

>Now, let me *emphasize* that any one of the reasons I mentioned above
>could be a simple coincidence. However, taken as a whole, I think it
>clearly shows the influence Final Fantasy had on Planescape. Add to
>that the open admiration of Planescape designers for Final Fantasy (read
>the "Thank You" section of the Planescape manual). I hope people

I don't have a Thank you section in my Planescape manual (UK) is this
another example of where the UK operation has cut back. In BG they
missed out the Cloth Map that the US version had.

Does anyone else no what else has been missed by the UK.

If anyone has the time I wouldn't mind knowing what the Thank you
section said.

Miles
--
Miles Osborne mailto:m...@mados.demon.co.uk
Southampton
UK UIN: 29637931

John Ford.

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Feb 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/13/00
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On Sun, 13 Feb 2000 01:14:28 GMT, Jason McCullough
<blort...@ou.edu> wrote:

>The Final Fantasy *series* is good. Final Fantasy VII, and from all
>reports VIII, however, are straight-line adventure game crap. They
>aren't RPGs.

Yeah, you're right. All that 40-hours of combat I struggled through
plus another dozen or so hours of item collecting to beat those Weapon
guys was actually an elaborate hallucination. My friends tell me I was
actually just clicking the circle button to read signposts for several
days.

John Ford.

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Feb 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/13/00
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On 12 Feb 2000 22:45:45 -0600, pat...@earth.execpc.com (Patrick
Mcginley) wrote:

>I seem to recall Firearm babbling somthing about:
>: I am so glad I am not the only one thinking that.
>
>You are forgetting some other parallels! They are:
>
>1. They are both GAMES! For computer like gadgets!
>2. Both employ representations of human ALTER EGOS!
>3. Nerds made both of them! Only from different parts of the world!
>4. Hit Points! Need I say more?
>5. Spells! Oh, yeah, someone mentioned this before...
>6. From what I hear, both involve devil worship in some way!
>7. They both ripped off every RPG to come before them - and both openly
>praise other RPG's! Coincidence? My ass!
>8. Neither has horribly ugly women you can add to your party - what, do
>the developers for both meet together in a secret meeting once a month and
>plan strategy or something? What happened to our anti-monopoly laws!
>Someone call Janet Reno and her flame throwing tank, or her Japanese
>equivalent!
>
>I was thinking they were *really different* until some guy mentioned the
>secondary save-the-world aspect. Two teams of genius freethinkers to come
>up with the same damn brilliant inovative idea at the same time? You have
>me convinced - they were both created by the same people. What's their
>angle? I haven't the foggiest, but by God, MAN - You are on to something
>bigger than the both of us!
>
>If I don't post again, they have gotten to me! Save yourself!!!

Your sarcasm does not dilute the validity of the original post, nor
does it erase the heavy thanks to FF7 & 8 as influences in Torment's
manual.

John Ford.

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Feb 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/13/00
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On Sat, 12 Feb 2000 18:31:56 -0600, Kenny Smith <ksm...@nospam.com>
wrote:

>A lot of people probably don't realize just how much influence Final
>Fantasy has had on the design of Planescape:Torment. In particular, I'm
>talking about the closed-minded people who easily dismiss the Final
>Fantasy series because of its console roots, all the while singing
>praises of a great CRPG like Torment.

[SNIP]

Personally, I'm happy to finally have a computer RPG where character
development involves more than "You gained +1 DEX!"

Until Torment, I played console RPG's to feel attached to the
characters, and computer RPG's to explore a world. Hopefully Torment
will hasten the development of more games that allow me to do both.

John Ford.

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Feb 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/13/00
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On Sun, 13 Feb 2000 09:39:03 +0000, Miles Osborne
<new...@mados.demon.co.uk> wrote:


>Does anyone else no what else has been missed by the UK.
>
>If anyone has the time I wouldn't mind knowing what the Thank you
>section said.

The designers had a "Thanks to" section. One of them read simply,
"Final Fantasy 7 and 8, for inspiration."

TitanMage

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Feb 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/13/00
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Well, yes there are some similarities, but be thankful that some other FF
(specifically FF7, the only one I played) conventions did not make their way
into PS:T.

1) Dialogue that is weakly translated from another language and very kiddie-ish
2) Not being able to see enemies before combat
3) Non-visual inventory system
4) Save points
5) Different look for world map vs. locales
6) Not being able to customize and advance your character to your style/liking
(role playing)
7) Very very poor graphics except for combat sequences
8) No mouse control
9) No spoken dialogue
10) Very few side-quests, very linear
11) Very repetitive combat limited to your three characters against only up to
five enemies in the same formations over and over
12) No multiple solutions to waypoints (triggers that advance the plot)
13) Personally, I don't care for anime (flying pumpkins, penguins, tarzan
swinging from a vine??)

The features that made it into PS:T are the good ones. IMHO, these other bad
features above, definitely outweigh the good. Give credit where credit is due,
but PS:T is a masterpiece, whereas FF7 is really a sub-par game with a couple
of nice features.

FS

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Feb 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/13/00
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*snipped good stuff*

>>I was thinking they were *really different* until some guy mentioned the
>>secondary save-the-world aspect. Two teams of genius freethinkers to come
>>up with the same damn brilliant inovative idea at the same time? You have
>>me convinced - they were both created by the same people. What's their
>>angle? I haven't the foggiest, but by God, MAN - You are on to something
>>bigger than the both of us!
>>
>>If I don't post again, they have gotten to me! Save yourself!!!
>
>Your sarcasm does not dilute the validity of the original post, nor
>does it erase the heavy thanks to FF7 & 8 as influences in Torment's
>manual.

Nopes, but it's hilarious as hell. :)

L.J. Wischik

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Feb 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/13/00
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Patrick Mcginley <pat...@earth.execpc.com> wrote:
>[snip]

>If I don't post again, they have gotten to me! Save yourself!!!

Very funny!

--
Lucian Wischik, Queens' College, Cambridge CB3 9ET. www.wischik.com/lu

Kenny Smith

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Feb 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/13/00
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Let me guess... you've never played a single Final Fantasy game in its
entirety, have you? Maybe read a few things about it, or played a couple of
hours? Your post feels like a typical response from somebody like that.

Your sarcasm is humorous, but severely misguided. There's very little actual
content in your otherwise long post. Don't criticize anything you know very
little about (my post, or the Final Fantasy series) unless you can support it
with solid arguments.

The Final Fantasy games are great games, but not *great* rpgs by the standard
definition of rpgs. In fact, it's probably closer to an Adventure game
running an RPG engine. I seem to recall Planescape:Torment being described by
many reviewers in a very similar (though more favorable) way.


Kenny Smith

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Feb 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/13/00
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TitanMage wrote:

> Well, yes there are some similarities, but be thankful that some other FF
> (specifically FF7, the only one I played) conventions did not make their way
> into PS:T.
>

Well, you have to look both games under different lights. FF games are console
games, generally designed for a younger audience *and* for an obsolete system with
limited resources. I don't agree with your assessment that FF7 was a sub-par
game. It was a sub-par RPG, but a great game.

>
> 1) Dialogue that is weakly translated from another language and very kiddie-ish

You have to take into account two things: The Japanese version loses a lot in the
translation to English. Some of the cheesy sentences in English doesn't
necessarily sound as weird in the original, colloquial Japanese dialogue. The
second (and most important) thing to remember are the characters. The characters
you play in FF7 & FF8 typically are 15-17 year old kids. Hearing NMO say "cool!
kickass! suck!" is out of character. Hearing a 15-year old Yuffie say the same
things is not.


>
> 2) Not being able to see enemies before combat
> 3) Non-visual inventory system
> 4) Save points
> 5) Different look for world map vs. locales
> 6) Not being able to customize and advance your character to your style/liking
> (role playing)
> 7) Very very poor graphics except for combat sequences
> 8) No mouse control
> 9) No spoken dialogue

All of the above are limitations of an obsolete system that's probably the
equivalent of a Pentium 120 Mhz. I mean, you can't store a lot of information in
those little memory cards for the playstation, hence the lack of customization.
It's amazing what Squaresoft was able to do with an old system like the
Playstation. Comparing FF games to PC games is like saying the Nebraska
Cornhuskers (a good college team) suck because they're not as talented as the
Cincinatti Bengals (a horrible NFL team).


>
> 10) Very few side-quests, very linear

This was true for FF8. FF7 had a *lot* of sidequests, optional characters, quests
for optional materia & weapons & limit breaks, a *lot* of optional scenes triggered
by optional characters. FF7 was linear up until you get the airship, and from
there it's open ended. Besides, PST is *very* linear too. The sections starting
from Ragpicker's Square -> Burried village -> Catacombs -> Drowned Nations -> Tomb
is practically a straight line. Same goes for the ending sequence of Upper Curst
-> Lower Curst -> Underground -> Prison -> Baatazu -> Curst Gone. Whereas FF7's
open-ended section occurs in the end (with the airship), in PST this occurs in the
early-mid game with the Hive & Upper Wards. Same thing, different arrangement.


> The features that made it into PS:T are the good ones. IMHO, these other bad
> features above, definitely outweigh the good. Give credit where credit is due,
> but PS:T is a masterpiece, whereas FF7 is really a sub-par game with a couple
> of nice features.

Like I said, FF7 is a subpar RPG, but a great game. I think PST is a combination
of BG's body and FF's soul. Best of both worlds. And like you said, give credit
where credit is due. Most people don't do this enough.

Elric10041

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Feb 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/13/00
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I totally agree with you.

I'm ravenously enjoying Planescape: Torment at the moment, and it's due in no
small part to what you are saying. I'm a veteran of Sega and Nintendo classics
like Shining Force, and Final Fantasy, and to see a modern CRPG take
inspiration friom those games in amazing.

Those "kiddie-console" RPGS made me care more about the characters and stories,
and kept me playing FAR longer than any CRPG on the PC (I gave up on both
Betrayal at Krondor and RoA: Star Trail)...until Torment, that is.

Way to go, Interplay and Black Isle!

Kenny Smith

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Feb 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/13/00
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Firearm wrote:

> I am so glad I am not the only one thinking that.
>
> There are also other points:
>
> 1. Annah's a melee fighter using her fists; so is Tifa in FF7.
> 2. FFG's a healer; so is Aerith in FF7 (her limit break)

Of course, to people not familiar with FF7 (ie Patrick Mcginley's response to
Firearm's thread), Tifa using fists and Aeris being a healer may not sound
like much of a comparison to PST.

Until they consider that Annah/Tifa is the spunky-romantic-interest
of-the-hero and-uses-fists as-a-primary-weapon type-of-girl, and serves as a
contrast to FFGrace/Aeris character who's the pristine-lady-like
alternate-love-interest for-the-hero and-serves-as-the party-healer type of
girl.

I'm sure we see this kind of relationship between the party leader & two
party members all the time in all CRPGs! Either it's one big coincidence, or
a sign of FF7's influence on PST.


Firearm

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Feb 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/13/00
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The FF series are a lot different from the mainstream CRPGs. They are
so different that I think they should be considered to be in another
gerne altogether.

It's not something everyone can swallow, and it's fine. US/Europe RPGs
aren't that popular in Japan for the same reason: different people,
different taste. It's not like we should start a war just because we
tend to like different RPGs.

Btw, There are people who think Torment's graphics suck too (What is
this ugly guy? I want a teenage cute boy!) That's why we have
different markets.

Me? I enjoy both. Why are we so keen on flaming each other just
because we have different tastes?

Oh, and maybe UT is inspired by the Quake series also... =)

Firearm

On 13 Feb 2000 11:28:01 GMT, tita...@aol.comNOSPAM (TitanMage)
wrotf:

>Well, yes there are some similarities, but be thankful that some other FF
>(specifically FF7, the only one I played) conventions did not make their way
>into PS:T.
>

>1) Dialogue that is weakly translated from another language and very kiddie-ish

>2) Not being able to see enemies before combat
>3) Non-visual inventory system
>4) Save points
>5) Different look for world map vs. locales
>6) Not being able to customize and advance your character to your style/liking
>(role playing)
>7) Very very poor graphics except for combat sequences
>8) No mouse control
>9) No spoken dialogue

>10) Very few side-quests, very linear

>11) Very repetitive combat limited to your three characters against only up to
>five enemies in the same formations over and over
>12) No multiple solutions to waypoints (triggers that advance the plot)
>13) Personally, I don't care for anime (flying pumpkins, penguins, tarzan
>swinging from a vine??)
>

(re)flex

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Feb 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/13/00
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Kenny Smith wrote in message <38A6D091...@nospam.com>...

>
>All of the above are limitations of an obsolete system that's probably the
>equivalent of a Pentium 120 Mhz. I mean, you can't store a lot of
information in
>those little memory cards for the playstation, hence the lack of
customization.
>It's amazing what Squaresoft was able to do with an old system like the
>Playstation. Comparing FF games to PC games is like saying the Nebraska
>Cornhuskers (a good college team) suck because they're not as talented as
the
>Cincinatti Bengals (a horrible NFL team).


A Pentium 120? There isn't even that much parity- PSX has what, a 33mHz
processor and 1MB of RAM? It's only real advantages are A)it has a 3D
accelerator (which presumeably a vanilla P120 wouldn't), and B)when coding
for it, one needn't account for innumerable hardware configurations. I think
these days, most PSX games are coded down to the metal (I know GT was).

Jazar

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Feb 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/13/00
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Kenny Smith <ksm...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:38A5FB7B...@nospam.com...
> snip

Kenny, can you email me? A friend of mine would like to discuss this with
you but he can't get on a news server.

Thanks!

Jazar
ja...@allgaming.com

John Ford.

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Feb 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/13/00
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On 13 Feb 2000 11:28:01 GMT, tita...@aol.comNOSPAM (TitanMage)
wrote:

>1) Dialogue that is weakly translated from another language and very kiddie-ish

This is the series' biggest flaw. Plot twists that are meant to be
astounding and revelatory elicit "Huh?"s most of the time.

>2) Not being able to see enemies before combat
>3) Non-visual inventory system
>4) Save points
>5) Different look for world map vs. locales
>6) Not being able to customize and advance your character to your style/liking
>(role playing)

These are just staples of the console RPG industry, which is derived
from the same D&D legacy PC RPG's have been. I don't feel they are
innate flaws so much as they are just trademarks of a different style.
Computer RPG's have plenty of inexplicable little quirks as well.

>7) Very very poor graphics except for combat sequences
>8) No mouse control
>9) No spoken dialogue
>10) Very few side-quests, very linear
>11) Very repetitive combat limited to your three characters against only up to
>five enemies in the same formations over and over
>12) No multiple solutions to waypoints (triggers that advance the plot)
>13) Personally, I don't care for anime (flying pumpkins, penguins, tarzan
>swinging from a vine??)

For the most part, yes.

>The features that made it into PS:T are the good ones. IMHO, these other bad
>features above, definitely outweigh the good. Give credit where credit is due,
>but PS:T is a masterpiece, whereas FF7 is really a sub-par game with a couple
>of nice features.

I would definitely choose PS:T over any one Final Fantasy game, as far
as the "complete great RPG experience." But you also have to realize
that PS:T is the first computer RPG to do this as well. Until now FF
games have been the only RPG's where plot and atmosphere and emotional
impact are considered as much or more than the gameplay.

Trent

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Feb 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/13/00
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I hate to be a bitch, but didja have to include the *entire* posting
along with your three-line follow-up?

---> Trent, who did feel he had to include the entire post.

Steve Kostoff

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Feb 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/13/00
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Kenny Smith <ksm...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:38A5FB7B...@nospam.com...
<snip>

This is like the CRPG version of the Kevin Bacon game...

Don't worry, everything that is exists at the universal Point of
Correspondance, so everything is related to everything else, and everything
influences everything else. Pretty cool, eh?

Steve Kostoff

Shawn Gumbleton

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Feb 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/13/00
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Lol. Well, is my face red. :)

--Shawn, who very occasionally remembers to practice what he preaches.

Trent wrote:
>
> I hate to be a bitch, but didja have to include the *entire* posting
> along with your three-line follow-up?
>
> ---> Trent, who did feel he had to include the entire post.
>
> Shawn Gumbleton wrote:
> >
> > I hate to be a bitch, but didja have to include the *entire* posting
> > along with your three-line follow-up?
> >
> > -Shawn
> >
> > Jason McCullough wrote:

<snip>

Brian H.

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Feb 14, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/14/00
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(*snip*)

>
> I hope people
> remember this the next time somebody foolishly dismisses Final Fantasy
> as just another juvenile "console" game.
>
>

Fortunately, Black Isle only adopted the good points of Final Fantasy,
and ditched the bad points from it, precisely:

1. Random & tiresome & relentless & unpredictable monster bashing
jumping from nowhere.

2. You can only save in a certain point.

3. Your main character is always a teen speaking childish dialogues
which add "depth" to the adolescent feel.

4. Exaggerated boss fighting with extremely long period of spell
animations clashing on the screen for nearly an hour.

If PS:T adopted either one of such game designs from FF, I'd happily
pass it over as if what I did for the FF.

--
Brian.

Human beings can send to bh1234...@nospam.please.ctimail.com.
Spammers can send to bh1...@my-deja.com because I never use it.

Bob Byrne

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Feb 14, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/14/00
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"Shawn Gumbleton" <gu...@ak.net> wrote:

> I hate to be a bitch, but didja have to include the *entire* posting
> along with your three-line follow-up?
>
> -Shawn

And guess who did the same bloody thing!!!!

--
Bob

Led Mirage

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Feb 14, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/14/00
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On Sun, 13 Feb 2000 10:32:28 -0600, Kenny Smith <KSm...@nospam.com>
wrote:


>I'm sure we see this kind of relationship between the party leader & two
>party members all the time in all CRPGs! Either it's one big coincidence, or
>a sign of FF7's influence on PST.

How many Japanese RPGs have you played? And how many anime have you
watched? It's a very typical Japanese formula (not to say that it's
bad or anything), but it's certainly very common in Japanese culture,
and not limited to a certain game series.

William

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Feb 14, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/14/00
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In article <38a88b77...@news.netvigator.com>,

For that matter, the Japanese didn't invent love triangles either. It's
a real stretch to say that this aspect of Torment was inspired by the
FF series. There are other points that are much better examples.

Jarno Kaarinen

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Feb 14, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/14/00
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Kenny Smith <ksm...@nospam.com> wrote:

>--strong focus on personal story & inter-PC relationships, where the
>"epic save-the-world" cliche becomes a mere background. Most RPGs put
>the "epic" in the foreground, and the "personal" becomes an
>afterthought. Hell, off the top of my head, I can't even think of any
>other computer RPG that has ever done this.

Betrayal at Krondor, Ultima 7 and Serpent Isle. Aeris dies in FF7?
Duh, so does Dupre in Serpent Isle.

>--Weapons systems. In Planescape, like in the Final Fantasies, ALL the
>weapons & their upgrades are designed specifically for each PC. Morte
>can only have Teeth Weapons (and vise versa). Dak'kon his Karach
>blade. Axe for Vhailor, arrows for Nordom, and so forth. The only
>exception is that NMO can use some of Annah's gloves. When you find/buy
>a weapon, 99% of the time it can only be used by one specific
>character. This system is most prominent in Final Fantasy games. For
>computer RPGs, it's unheard of.
>
>--Spell Implementation. The first time I saw a mid level offensive
>spell in Planescape, I immediately thought about FF7 & FF8. It's a
>system where *everything* pauses while the screen pans and centers
>around the target to maximize dramatic effect. Then a graphic will show
>up (toxic cloud, call lightning, lighning chain, etc) while everything
>else is frozen. Most other CRPGs do their spell FX in real time.

Huh? No they don't. In CRPGs it is also usually taken in turns.

>Now, let me *emphasize* that any one of the reasons I mentioned above
>could be a simple coincidence. However, taken as a whole, I think it
>clearly shows the influence Final Fantasy had on Planescape. Add to
>that the open admiration of Planescape designers for Final Fantasy (read

>the "Thank You" section of the Planescape manual). I hope people


>remember this the next time somebody foolishly dismisses Final Fantasy
>as just another juvenile "console" game.

What makes them juvenile is that they are too easy. Try Xenogears or
FF8, there's no challenge to be found anywhere. Planescape, on the
other hand, has lots of challenge.

That said, it is quite obvious that Planescape was influences by some
later FF games, FF7 and FF8 particularly. LUCKILY they still avoided
to make the game as easy and rigid as those games. And also you should
remember that Japanese console RPGs owe it to western RPGs anyway,
because Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest were heavily influenced (read:
carbon copies) of early Ultima titles.


Jarno Kaarinen

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Feb 14, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/14/00
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fs...@hotnospamail.com (Firearm) wrote:

>I am so glad I am not the only one thinking that.
>
>There are also other points:
>
>1. Annah's a melee fighter using her fists; so is Tifa in FF7.

Not to mention Werg in Wizardy Gold, eh? :-)

>2. FFG's a healer; so is Aerith in FF7 (her limit break)

My priest in Wiz Gold was also a healer. :-)


Zyan

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Feb 14, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/14/00
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> That said, it is quite obvious that Planescape was influences by some
> later FF games, FF7 and FF8 particularly. LUCKILY they still avoided
> to make the game as easy and rigid as those games. And also you should
> remember that Japanese console RPGs owe it to western RPGs anyway,
> because Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest were heavily influenced (read:
> carbon copies) of early Ultima titles.
>

If the influences are for the better, just acknowledged it and move on.

PST is a good game as it combines the better elements from FF7 and BG.
These make it the ultimate game it is today. True that FF7 has it flaws
(never played FF8) such as save points and repetitive combat (but compared
to MM6, it is really nothing). But hey, at least it does some good. Such
as influencing some designers who are intelligent enough not to copy
everything but just the good stuff. So what do we get? Great story, great
depth and great entertainment. Everybody except the trigger happy folks
(maybe they should play Quake 3 instead?) are happy.

And FF and DQ are NOT carbon copies of Ultima series. They are influenced,
most probably, not sure about that. The DQ series is very much influenced
by PnP AD&D. Not sure about FF. But the interaction, the characters and
details etc, are very much different from Ultima. Guess it has something to
do with culture. Thus they are influenced maybe but definitely not carbon
copies.

BTW, if you asked me, I prefer FF7 over MM6 or MM7 anytime. AND I prefer
PST over FF7 anytime too.

Zyan

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Feb 14, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/14/00
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Jarno Kaarinen <ja...@remotel.com> wrote in message
news:C7ynOJxXXGbduSBnie=QY0Y...@131.228.6.99...

Huh? What are you implying? Our friend (Firearm) here is trying to compare
the similarities of the love interests of the main protagonist in both
games. I don' t remember Wiz Gold having any love interests in the party.
The whole party was generated by me.

Er, you do understand what Firearm mean, do you?

Jarno Kaarinen

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Feb 14, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/14/00