Alien RPG cancelled, Obsidian in trouble
MetalGuru
Game under development by Obsidian (formed by ex members of Black Isle,
no less). The title was under development for the PC, Playstation 3 and
Xbox 360. Rumor also has it that Obsidian laid off more than 20 people
a few days ago.
Obsidian first worked on KOTOR II: The Sith Lords which I thought was
much more interesting and better written than the first one, albeit
unpolished and not quite finished. I certainly hope they manage to
survive this blow, Bioware and Bethesda could use the 'competition'
specially from a developer of their caliber.
Werner Spahl
> Apparently Sega has pulled the plug on their upcoming Aliens Roleplaying
> Game under development by Obsidian (formed by ex members of Black Isle,
To be honest, I never really understand how they wanted to do an Aliens
RPG in the first place. I mean one enemy who behaves like an animal?
--
Werner Spahl (sp...@cup.uni-muenchen.de) Freedom for
"The meaning of my life is to make me crazy" Vorlonships
Memnoch
wrote:
>On Fri, 20 Feb 2009, MetalGuru wrote:
>
>> Apparently Sega has pulled the plug on their upcoming Aliens Roleplaying
>> Game under development by Obsidian (formed by ex members of Black Isle,
>
>To be honest, I never really understand how they wanted to do an Aliens
>RPG in the first place. I mean one enemy who behaves like an animal?
I have the PnP Aliens RPG and it really could have been a good game if they
had read that and taken some ideas on board.
Flo 'Irian' Schaetz
> Apparently Sega has pulled the plug on their upcoming Aliens Roleplaying
> Game under development by Obsidian (formed by ex members of Black Isle,
> no less). The title was under development for the PC, Playstation 3 and
> Xbox 360. Rumor also has it that Obsidian laid off more than 20 people
> a few days ago.
Would you please state a source for this info? I can't seem to find
anything about that in the news... My last info (Feb 17.) was, that the
game will be delayed until after 2009, but nothing about cancelation.
Flo
Kendrick Kerwin Chua
Memnoch <mem...@nospampleaseimbritish.ntlworld.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 20 Feb 2009 09:46:20 +0100, Werner Spahl <sp...@cup.uni-muenchen.de>
>wrote:
>>On Fri, 20 Feb 2009, MetalGuru wrote:
>>
>>> Apparently Sega has pulled the plug on their upcoming Aliens Roleplaying
>>> Game under development by Obsidian (formed by ex members of Black Isle,
>>
>>To be honest, I never really understand how they wanted to do an Aliens
>>RPG in the first place. I mean one enemy who behaves like an animal?
Palette swapping: Still good for 3D model textures. :) The Aliens game
world is full of conflict, and not all of it comes from competition with
the aliens. My impression was that the game was not going to be focused on
combat, which could have led to a better RPG experience if players were
asked to traverse a whole galaxy of explorers and soldiers and their
governments.
>
>I have the PnP Aliens RPG and it really could have been a good game if they
>had read that and taken some ideas on board.
I agree with you in principle, but apart from the D&D licensors I can't
immediately think of anybody who was able to take a paper RPG and
translate it into an electronic format in a satisfying way. Maybe the bad
taste of the Shadowrun game is coloring my memory there too.
-KKC, shopping unwisely.
--
-- "Enjoy | kendrick @ |
your fishing!" | io . com | http://www.io.com/~kkc
Justisaur
> In article <0v1tp4pufl5hq040da2s826hu6v4r4o...@4ax.com>,
>
> Memnoch <memn...@nospampleaseimbritish.ntlworld.com> wrote:
> >On Fri, 20 Feb 2009 09:46:20 +0100, Werner Spahl <sp...@cup.uni-muenchen.de>
> >wrote:
> >>On Fri, 20 Feb 2009, MetalGuru wrote:
>
> >>> Apparently Sega has pulled the plug on their upcoming Aliens Roleplaying
> >>> Game under development by Obsidian (formed by ex members of Black Isle,
>
> >>To be honest, I never really understand how they wanted to do an Aliens
> >>RPG in the first place. I mean one enemy who behaves like an animal?
>
> Palette swapping: Still good for 3D model textures. :) The Aliens game
> world is full of conflict, and not all of it comes from competition with
> the aliens. My impression was that the game was not going to be focused on
> combat, which could have led to a better RPG experience if players were
> asked to traverse a whole galaxy of explorers and soldiers and their
> governments.
>
>
>
> >I have the PnP Aliens RPG and it really could have been a good game if they
> >had read that and taken some ideas on board.
>
> I agree with you in principle, but apart from the D&D licensors I can't
> immediately think of anybody who was able to take a paper RPG and
> translate it into an electronic format in a satisfying way. Maybe the bad
> taste of the Shadowrun game is coloring my memory there too.
>
I rather liked MegaTraveler:
http://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/megatraveller-1-the-zhodani-conspiracy
Fallout is supposedly a rip off of gurps.
Of course City of Heroes, although it's nothing at all like Champions
other than being a superhero game.
Then there's MechWarrior. Not really an RPG though.
The warhammer games are pretty decent too.
This makes me think the rip offs are better than the 'licensed'
versions.
- Justisaur
Vincenzo Beretta
It is not strictly a rip-off: Fallout started out as the official conversion
of GURPS for the PC - "GURPS Fallout", in a way (and there were talks about
a parallel worldbook to be published for the tabletop rules). I still
remember when Interplay started publishing the first FAQs with some hints
regarding what books where being used for the setting et al.
Then Interplay and Steve Jackson had a... uhm... fallout, and thus the
programmers where forced to create a whole new system to shoehorn what they
had already developed for the game in. I honestly think that SJ was the
loser, at the end, since "Fallout" would have been a great showcase for
GURPS.
MetalGuru
There's a reason I used the words "apparently" and "rumor" - it has not
been officially confirmed. Sega stated that they "do not respond to
speculation or rumor questions."
http://kotaku.com/5152193/rumor-aliens-rpg-canceled-layoffs-hit
CoinSpin
> On Fri, 20 Feb 2009, MetalGuru wrote:
>
>> Apparently Sega has pulled the plug on their upcoming Aliens
>> Roleplaying Game under development by Obsidian (formed by ex members
>> of Black Isle,
>
> To be honest, I never really understand how they wanted to do an
> Aliens RPG in the first place. I mean one enemy who behaves like an
> animal?
There's plenty of variety in the Aliens universe... Different genotypes
of aliens were produced, depending on what host they developed in. Just
watch the movies, you see a wide variety of alien types, each with
different skills, movement styles, etc.
Seems like the major R in the RPG would be determining what skills and
weapons proficiencies your character chooses... So odds are it would
end up being a FPS/RPG hybrid, as is becoming more common these days.
--
~ CoinSpin
WDS
I think that Fallout was a loser too. SPECIAL is pretty good for a
last minute creation but GURPS would have worked a lot better. It's a
dream of mine that they will someday make (more) cRPGs that don't have
"levels". Oh well.
Cavadure
Levels are pretty ingrained right now, so I think you'll have a long
wait. They even have leveling in other genres these days and refer to
them as "rpg-like" features.
Pibbur Dragon
---
Pibur
Cavadure
wrote:
You don't like leveling? I'm not sure what you would have against. I
enjoy getting levels in the games I play, whether or not they're RPGs.
NFLed
>
> -
I think that most everyone who enjoys crpgs likes some sort of
statistical character advancement so that if the character at the end
of a game were to go back to the beginning area and time of the game
they would have an extremely easy time.
The question is what system to use. There are systems in which the
character obtains points and then levels up (overall and/or in
specific skills), there are systems in which the character increases
stats in an area based upon use, there are systems with no stats and
only inventory items, there are systems in which characters increase
in abilities only at specific points in the game, there are other
systems, and there are hybrids.
I don't particularly care which system is used as long as there is
meaningful character stastical advancement and it is not just a small
part of the game. Use advancement can be a problem if it leads to
just repetitively using a skill in a boring way to advance the stat.
Advancing levels is usually safer for me in that area as long as the
points assigned are done in a reasonable way.
Pibbur Dragon
without levels.
I was just trying to be funny by playing word games. Admittedly a bit lame.
---
Pibbur, who can't get enough levels.
Dimensional Traveler
> On Feb 20, 1:19 pm, Cavadure <toxaristhra...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Feb 20, 12:47 pm, Pibbur Dragon <oopsREM.OVE...@tele2CA.PSno>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Cavadure skrev:
>>>> long wait. They even have leveling in other genres these days and
>>>> refer to them as "rpg-like" features.
>>
>>> RPG like features some of us don't like, in other words.
>>
>> You don't like leveling? I'm not sure what you would have against. I
>> enjoy getting levels in the games I play, whether or not they're
>> RPGs.
>>
>
> statistical character advancement so that if the character at the end
> of a game were to go back to the beginning area and time of the game
> they would have an extremely easy time.
>
> The question is what system to use. There are systems in which the
> character obtains points and then levels up (overall and/or in
> specific skills), there are systems in which the character increases
> stats in an area based upon use, there are systems with no stats and
> only inventory items, there are systems in which characters increase
> in abilities only at specific points in the game, there are other
> systems, and there are hybrids.
>
> I don't particularly care which system is used as long as there is
> meaningful character stastical advancement and it is not just a small
> part of the game. Use advancement can be a problem if it leads to
> just repetitively using a skill in a boring way to advance the stat.
> Advancing levels is usually safer for me in that area as long as the
> points assigned are done in a reasonable way.
I've never understood how the equivalent of going to the gym and
practicing/training is a "problem". Getting better and more accurate with a
gun usually involves hours and hours of practice on a range, not just a
dozen or so shots in a firefight. Increasing your proficiency with a sword
usually involves sparring with a training partner or teacher for hours and
hours to build up the muscle strength and muscle memory to handle more
advanced moves, not just whacking a couple of opponents a score of times.
Etc. etc. etc. You'd have a _lot_ more complaints about games being boring
and "unrealistic" (*boggle*) if game developers put that in.
--
"What Kind of perv rememembers the scenes where she's clothed???" -
Anim8rFSK, 8/23/08
Darin Johnson
> I've never understood how the equivalent of going to the gym and
> practicing/training is a "problem".
Because it's a game. We don't want to see the boring work
in a game, we want to get to the fun. So shortcut this stuff
by letting us go to quick trainers, or spend skill points with
the assumption that we've been practicing off-screen.
Greg Johnson
<da...@usa.net> wrote:
I'm quite happy to go to a trainer and get the effects instantly, but
I'd be happier if they also incremented the game clock at the same
time - a day per skill point, say.
Memnoch
I can't see that adding anything gameplay wise but it wouldn't hurt either.
Kendrick Kerwin Chua
Darin Johnson <da...@usa.net> wrote:
Won't a well-constructed game properly scale its fun? Without laboring the
point, it should start off fun already, and then make you work to become
extraordinary or legendary. If there's boring stuff starting off a game,
then they're doing it wrong.
I do generally agree more with DT's point though, that there's a certain
expectation that some small part of real life should end up being
simulated in an RPG, otherwise it's not plausible to me.
-KKC, trying to keep it under a thousand words for once.
Morgan
> Werner Spahl wrote:
>> On Fri, 20 Feb 2009, MetalGuru wrote:
>>
>>> Apparently Sega has pulled the plug on their upcoming Aliens
>>> Roleplaying Game under development by Obsidian (formed by ex members
>>> of Black Isle,
>>
>> To be honest, I never really understand how they wanted to do an
>> Aliens RPG in the first place. I mean one enemy who behaves like an
>> animal?
>
> There's plenty of variety in the Aliens universe... Different
> genotypes of aliens were produced, depending on what host they
> developed in. Just watch the movies, you see a wide variety of alien
> types, each with different skills, movement styles, etc.
Sticking to the fully grown ones I can only think of the standard killer
from Alien, the queen and the dog (Cow in the directors cut) type from Alien
3. I'm no expert on the alien universe though. Am I missing something?
Pibbur Dragon
There's the alien queen with human genes coming from the Ripley clone in
Alien 4, and the humanoid alien (the "Newborn")coming from the womb she
develops. From AVP 2 we have the predalien.
In additiion there is a lot of different aliens in the books/ comics.
Wikipedia has an overview over those here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castes_and_traits_of_Aliens_in_expanded_universe#Rogue_Alien
---
Pibalien
Greg Johnson
No, it does nothing gameplay-wise, just adds a little verisimiltude,
which never hurts when you're trying to suspend disbelief.
Actually, now that I think about it, Morrowind did nearly this - and
showed how to get it wrong too. They advanced the clock a number of
hours that changed you from day to night fairly often when training.
By itself, that wouldn't have been a problem, but the trainers often
wandered away from your character while you learned - and you couldn't
schedule more than a single session of training at a time. It meant
that training in certain skills could be a real pain.
Ross Ridge
> I've never understood how the equivalent of going to the gym and
> practicing/training is a "problem".
Darin Johnson <da...@usa.net> wrote:
>Because it's a game. We don't want to see the boring work
>in a game, we want to get to the fun. So shortcut this stuff
>by letting us go to quick trainers, or spend skill points with
>the assumption that we've been practicing off-screen.
Kendrick Kerwin Chua <kend...@nospam.io> wrote:
[...]
>I do generally agree more with DT's point though, that there's a certain
>expectation that some small part of real life should end up being
>simulated in an RPG, otherwise it's not plausible to me.
Well, the problem is that character progression in any RPG is going to
be very unrealistic regardless of how it's implemented. Realistically
most skills and attributes should only improve through training and
killing monsters and resolving quests isn't a prerequisite for training.
Since character progression quickly takes characters well beyond the
capabilities of real humans, it's best explained by magic anyways. I see
having training or not in a game as being a question of complexity.
With traiing the player may have to consider things like wether its
better to continue forward in the dungeon or go back to train, or whether
spend money on a shiney new sword or to save up to pay the next level's
training fee. Not all games want that level of complexity however.
Ross Ridge
--
l/ // Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
[oo][oo] rri...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
-()-/()/ http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~rridge/
db //
MJB
"Ross Ridge" <rri...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> wrote in message
news:gnr1c6$7gh$1...@rumours.uwaterloo.ca...
Aren't games that allow a character to gain advancement via 'training'
introducing an economic 'reality' into games that they generally completely
lack? The character doesn't pay for food - the character doen't pay for
shelter - the character doesn't pay for clothing or gear or anything else.
Almost every game allows player characters to completely exist upon what
they 'find' (or steal or capture) in the game play-world. Yet he accumulates
vast sums of 'treasure' and barters away 'gear' for even more money that he
then carries around on his person in his 'magic bag of holding' (ie,
inventory screen). I see no problem with a game allowing a player to pay
vast sums of his 'accumulated wealth' for gaining a pip or a point or a
level in a particular skill-set, especially if gaining the high(est) levels
of skill require astronimcal amounts of money.
For me Morrowind struck a pretty good balance for the issue of training -
gaing a point in a particular skill took time and a lot of money. And you
had to seek out particular trainers and do particular quests to gain the
higher levels of training. Plus it cost a lot of coin to accomplish it.
Like it or not, it was one of the reasons to keep on keeping on...
<shrug>
--
MJB
Mr. Tin's Miniature Painting Workshop:
http://web.newsguy.com/Mrtinsworkshop/
Werner Spahl
> There's the alien queen with human genes coming from the Ripley clone in
> Alien 4, and the humanoid alien (the "Newborn")coming from the womb she
> develops. From AVP 2 we have the predalien.
>
> In additiion there is a lot of different aliens in the books/ comics.
But are we supposed to play some of them? Or actually reason with them?
Regardless of alien type I guess the only answer to deal with them would
be to use weapons and this makes not a really good base for a RPG...
Mark Morrison
<sp...@cup.uni-muenchen.de> wrote:
>On Sat, 21 Feb 2009, Pibbur Dragon wrote:
>
>> There's the alien queen with human genes coming from the Ripley clone in
>> Alien 4, and the humanoid alien (the "Newborn")coming from the womb she
>> develops. From AVP 2 we have the predalien.
>>
>> In additiion there is a lot of different aliens in the books/ comics.
>
>But are we supposed to play some of them? Or actually reason with them?
>Regardless of alien type I guess the only answer to deal with them would
>be to use weapons and this makes not a really good base for a RPG...
It would have to be an action RPG, maybe a System Shock 2 affair, with
Aliens taking over the monster role.
Werner Spahl
> It would have to be an action RPG, maybe a System Shock 2 affair, with
> Aliens taking over the monster role.
Yeah, but was SS2 a real RPG? I mean it had stats but no NPC interaction
whatsoever. Or are stats enough now?
Wolfing
> "Dimensional Traveler" <dtra...@sonic.net> wrote:
> > I've never understood how the equivalent of going to the gym and
> > practicing/training is a "problem".
>
> Darin Johnson <da...@usa.net> wrote:
>
> >Because it's a game. We don't want to see the boring work
> >in a game, we want to get to the fun. So shortcut this stuff
> >by letting us go to quick trainers, or spend skill points with
> >the assumption that we've been practicing off-screen.
>
> [...]
>
> >I do generally agree more with DT's point though, that there's a certain
> >expectation that some small part of real life should end up being
> >simulated in an RPG, otherwise it's not plausible to me.
>
> Well, the problem is that character progression in any RPG is going to
> be very unrealistic regardless of how it's implemented. Realistically
> most skills and attributes should only improve through training and
> killing monsters and resolving quests isn't a prerequisite for training.
> Since character progression quickly takes characters well beyond the
> capabilities of real humans, it's best explained by magic anyways. I see
> having training or not in a game as being a question of complexity.
> With traiing the player may have to consider things like wether its
> better to continue forward in the dungeon or go back to train, or whether
> spend money on a shiney new sword or to save up to pay the next level's
> training fee. Not all games want that level of complexity however.
>
> Ross Ridge
like you don't see your characters peeing or shaving, it still
happens. When you 'level up' and suddenly learn how to use a two
handed sword even if you never fought with it in your adventures,
doesn't mean your character didn't spend training time in it, or how
he can suddenly cast a fireball, it doesn't mean it just popped in his
head, it's the result of days studying and practicing, but that
happens 'off-camera' so to speak.
Wolfing
> On Mon, 23 Feb 2009, Mark Morrison wrote:
> > It would have to be an action RPG, maybe a System Shock 2 affair, with
> > Aliens taking over the monster role.
>
> Yeah, but was SS2 a real RPG? I mean it had stats but no NPC interaction
> whatsoever. Or are stats enough now?
>
would consider it an RPG (archaic one, but still). Stats define a
game as an RPG, now things like NPC interactions, game altering
decision making, different endings, NPC chatter, etc. makes it a good
or bad RPG. These aspects, without stats, to me fall in the
'adventure' game genre.
CoinSpin
Yep, I tend to agree there... Unless they are doing something bold and
new, I'm guessing an Aliens title would be an FPS with RPG elements,
heavy on the FPS. But the RPG side of things could easily allow you to
tailor your character type, determining your style of combat, and
definitely affecting your path through the game. Didn't choose to learn
any hacking? Oh, too bad, you can't activate these defense turrets.
Didn't take any engineering training? Ah, so sorry, you can't bypass
this broken door mechanism, and you must go the long way around,
preferably through the sewage system... etc., etc.
That would constitute an RPGish feel to me, and add in some things like
stats that affect reactions of NPCs to you (do they trust you, want to
fight alongside you, run like hell from you, etc), and there's a bit
more depth. However, it really all depends on how they were choosing to
implement the RPG elements in the game.
--
~ CoinSpin
Adam Russell
"Wolfing" <wolf...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b3a271f9-47ee-412c...@v18g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
<end quote>
I remember in the early days we were required to go see a trainer and spend
X hours (virtual time) training.
Mike S.
<sp...@cup.uni-muenchen.de> wrote:
>Yeah, but was SS2 a real RPG? I mean it had stats but no NPC interaction
>whatsoever. Or are stats enough now?
Stats were enough for a long time. In the 'what is and what is not an
rpg' game, stats come out *way* ahead of NPC interaction. There are
plenty of RPGs without any NPC interaction whatsoever but there has
never been an RPG without stats. In fact, if anything defines an RPG,
its stats. Not storyline. Not NPC Interaction. Just stats. I know some
of you will point your noses skyward and say that's ridiculous. Well,
tough. :) At the end of the day, your genre is about stats. Without
them, you are playing either a pure action game or a graphic
adventure.
With that said, putting stats into your game the way SS2 does not an
RPG make. Those stats should play a *significant* role in determining
how your character does. I don't think this is really the case in SS2.
So as far as SS2 goes, I always felt like I was playing a first person
shooter with RPG elements thrown in.
Wolfing
wrote:
> "Wolfing" <wolfi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Yes I think up to AD&D 2.5 you needed to spend a month training, but
not in 3e that I remember. I played AD&D the longest, but I liked 3e
(and 3.5) much better, the core at least, without the munchkinism of
the expansions. 4th ed. on the other hand, royally sucks
Cavadure
I'm playing a new RPG titled Dawn of War II right now.
Kyle Haight
Werner Spahl <sp...@cup.uni-muenchen.de> wrote:
>
>Yeah, but was SS2 a real RPG? I mean it had stats but no NPC interaction
>whatsoever. Or are stats enough now?
SS2 had NPC interaction -- just in an *extremely* old-school form, in
which NPCs were fenceposts who recited a single piece of dialog when
you interacted with them. Think Ultima 2.
--
Kyle Haight
Mark Morrison
<sp...@cup.uni-muenchen.de> wrote:
>On Mon, 23 Feb 2009, Mark Morrison wrote:
>
>> It would have to be an action RPG, maybe a System Shock 2 affair, with
>> Aliens taking over the monster role.
>
>Yeah, but was SS2 a real RPG? I mean it had stats but no NPC interaction
>whatsoever. Or are stats enough now?
Pretty much. IT helps, anyway.
Do we really need another 'is it an RPG' thread ? Isn't there already
one ongoing ?
CoinSpin
I think at any 1 moment around here, there are usually at least 2
discussions that have branched and devolved into a "what makes an RPG"
discussion... At least, that's how it seems. heh
--
~ CoinSpin
Nostromo
> On Mon, 23 Feb 2009, Mark Morrison wrote:
>
>> It would have to be an action RPG, maybe a System Shock 2 affair, with
>> Aliens taking over the monster role.
>
> Yeah, but was SS2 a real RPG? I mean it had stats but no NPC interaction
> whatsoever. Or are stats enough now?
If you're an accountant who likes crpgs, yes.
--
Nostromo
Nostromo
Here we go again ppl... >8^D
Modern defn: if the dev/publisher puts 'rpg' on the box to sell more copies
Classical defn: if the majority of nerds consider(ed) it a rpg & still
drool over it
:)
--
Nostromo
Nostromo
> On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 15:14:39 +0100, Werner Spahl
> <sp...@cup.uni-muenchen.de> wrote:
>
>> Yeah, but was SS2 a real RPG? I mean it had stats but no NPC interaction
>> whatsoever. Or are stats enough now?
>
> Stats were enough for a long time. In the 'what is and what is not an
> rpg' game, stats come out *way* ahead of NPC interaction. There are
> plenty of RPGs without any NPC interaction whatsoever but there has
> never been an RPG without stats. In fact, if anything defines an RPG,
> its stats. Not storyline. Not NPC Interaction. Just stats. I know some
> of you will point your noses skyward and say that's ridiculous. Well,
> tough. :) At the end of the day, your genre is about stats. Without
> them, you are playing either a pure action game or a graphic
> adventure.
What if the rpg is a numberless one where all stats are hidden by the
GM? What if a game did this? How many stats exactly are a minimum number
that passes for a crpg?
As you can see, any defn is ridiculous, without either a clear
'textbook' definition accepted by the vast majority (good luck with that
;), or, if like me, you could give a rat's arse about what labels other
people use, then you just go with "if I'm roleplaying it's a rpg" :).
That's why I've said in the past that many quality fps or hybrid games
actually make for far better roleplaying than so-called 'hardcore'
crpgs. I guess we'd have to go back to the accepted defn of 'roleplay',
which is going to be pushing more runny shit uphill <G>.
> With that said, putting stats into your game the way SS2 does not an
> RPG make. Those stats should play a *significant* role in determining
> how your character does. I don't think this is really the case in SS2.
> So as far as SS2 goes, I always felt like I was playing a first person
> shooter with RPG elements thrown in.
Fair nuff. I hear similar grumblings from many here about FO3, for
example, but I'm not one to say I told you so <EG>.
--
Nostromo
Nostromo
> all grasping at heretofore forbidden games and genres in the neverending quest
> for *something* to talk about.
>
> If Obsidian is in trouble, this group is going to be completely dead, which is
> somewhat worse than its current status of "mostly dead," very soon. Even
> "Miracle Max" won't be able to help us.
And once all the graphics/AV/AA/AF/quad-core whores leave & piss off to
the fps cesspool, we'll be able to talk in peace about all the marvelous
indy rpgs that are still going strong & staying true to the genre. ;)
--
Nostromo
Mike S.
wrote:
>What if the rpg is a numberless one where all stats are hidden by the
>GM? What if a game did this? How many stats exactly are a minimum number
>that passes for a crpg?
Hidden or not, either the game uses stats or it doesn't. As for number
of stats? Two should do it. Hitpoints and Mana Points! Ok, just
kidding, I really have no idea.
>As you can see, any defn is ridiculous, without either a clear
>'textbook' definition accepted by the vast majority (good luck with that
>;), or, if like me, you could give a rat's arse about what labels other
>people use, then you just go with "if I'm roleplaying it's a rpg" :).
That works for me. Or 'you know them when you see them' as someone
recently said in another thread.
>Fair nuff. I hear similar grumblings from many here about FO3, for
>example, but I'm not one to say I told you so <EG>.
Actually, I was thinking of Fallout 3 when I posted that. I haven't
played it though so I have no comment either way. I am guessing though
that it is more RPG then System Shock 2 was. By my definition anyway.
:-P
Nostromo
Anno Domini:
>>> If Obsidian is in trouble, this group is going to be completely dead, which is
>>> somewhat worse than its current status of "mostly dead," very soon. Even
>>> "Miracle Max" won't be able to help us.
>>
>>And once all the graphics/AV/AA/AF/quad-core whores leave & piss off to
>>the fps cesspool, we'll be able to talk in peace about all the marvelous
>>indy rpgs that are still going strong & staying true to the genre. ;)
>
>OMFG, you *are* an optimist. ;^D
I like to think I'm an optimistic cynic, rather than a cynical optimist
actually ;-p. Haven't we done this skit before...? :-/
--
Nostromo
Werner Spahl
> In article <Pine.LNX.4.64.09...@cicum1.cup.uni-muenchen.de>,
> Werner Spahl <sp...@cup.uni-muenchen.de> wrote:
>>
>> Yeah, but was SS2 a real RPG? I mean it had stats but no NPC interaction
>> whatsoever. Or are stats enough now?
>
> SS2 had NPC interaction -- just in an *extremely* old-school form, in
> which NPCs were fenceposts who recited a single piece of dialog when you
Not if I remember correctly. There was no interaction at all, it could
have been just tapes you viewed. Also not to spoil anything about this old
game, but I don't think there were NPCs involved at all very much ;).
Wolfing
Not only indy, but also european and asian companies still make RPGs.
The latest, Drakensang, seems to be sold out in many places in the US
(probably because of its low starting price of $29.99 or because the
publisher didn't release enough thinking demand wouldn't be high for
an 'old school' RPG). Hopefully that will make some people turn their
head a bit. King's Bounty, although not a pure RPG, also sold well.
Maybe the genre is not as 'dead' as many would think.
Kyle Haight
Werner Spahl <sp...@cup.uni-muenchen.de> wrote:
>>
>> SS2 had NPC interaction -- just in an *extremely* old-school form, in
>> which NPCs were fenceposts who recited a single piece of dialog when you
>
>Not if I remember correctly. There was no interaction at all, it could
>have been just tapes you viewed. Also not to spoil anything about this old
>game, but I don't think there were NPCs involved at all very much ;).
But I was interpreting 'NPC' very broadly. In the extreme old-school
an NPC was a specific point on the map with which you would interact,
and it would provide you a nugget of data and/or advance the plot.
In that sense, SS2 log entries *are* old-scbool NPCs.
One of the designers of the original System Shock, which was similar to
the sequel in this respect, once joked that "we have NPCs, they're just
all dead."
--
Kyle Haight
Flo 'Irian' Schaetz
> What if the rpg is a numberless one where all stats are hidden by the
> GM? What if a game did this? How many stats exactly are a minimum number
> that passes for a crpg?
There are totaly statless rpgs, no problem. But a _C_RPG without stats
would probably be called an "adventure", as the difference only exists
in computer games.
Flo
Nostromo
> How about when you enter the Jedi enclave on Dantooine and have to face the
> exploding protocol droids?
They would then be NPDs. <G>
--
Nostromo
Nostromo
> incredible ability to crunch numbers. It certainly can't offer the flexibility
> of a face-to-face RPG, so it makes up for it with stats and scripting.
>
> However, if the stats are "under the hood," and not available to the player,
> the only thing a computer RPG couldn't offer is *trust* that those numbers
> affect and reflect play choices.
>
> For instance, when I play Temple of Elemental Evil, and only the *thief* is
> doing damage to the jackalwere (IIRC, might've been a werejackal), I can pull
> up the "rolls" dialogue, and see that the reason for this is his flanking
> bonus, plus sneak attack damage, plus the jackalwere has a huge DR against
> anything that isn't silver. So only massive damage hits him if it's not silver.
> Magic and Holy weapons be darned, my fighters can't hurt him.
>
> It's "under the hood," but it's there to look at, in verbose, if something
> seems peculiar. Most CRPGs allow you to "turn on" dice rolls. They've kept most
> of it "under the hood" since Baldur's Gate, however. After BG, you generally
> have to opt-in to all the numbers.
>
> As a result, there are unbelievable community patches for RPGs that, IMHO, we
> don't see in other genres. You see mods in those other genres, but not simple
> *game mechanics* fixes, like Oscuro's Overhaul.
>
> More examples: Baldurdash fixed numerous BG 2 problems, and Werner has proven
> that you can overhaul a buggy game into something nice with a bit of work.
>
> But the hidden stats do contribute to a feeling that one is playing an
> "adventure" game. Some elements of adventure games have been brought right into
> the CRPG genre as a result of it. I think there's a reason adventure gaming
> died out around the time of Fallout and the original Baldur's Gate. CRPG had
> become everything adventure gaming was, and then some.
>
> I think CRPG does everything the adventure games did, with less arbitrary
> nonsense, and a better feeling of real control. If we notice the adventure
> aspects of a CRPG, it is because CRPG has *subsumed* it.
Though I agree with you in broad terms, I still think well crafted
adventure games have a strong place in the industry. Name me 3 crpgs
this decade which had a *primary* focus on story & puzzle-solving, as
opposed to hack & slash, stat/number-crunching or phat loot collection.
I can only think of VTMB & perhaps The Witcher. I rest my case ;-p.
OT: just got a bit of IT junk mail - "CISSP" (Certified Information
Systems Security Professional). Well whadda ya know, there's a
certification out there to become a Sissypig - WOOT! :)))
--
Nostromo
Kyle Haight
Zaghadka <zagh...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Yup. The logs were a novel solution to the "ghost ship" problem.
Well, technically they were copied from the original System Shock, where
the logs were a novel solution to the "ghost station" problem. But yes,
they were cool and effective.
>I prefered the _logs_. They're more frightening to me.
"It's log, it's log, it's big, it's heavy, it's wood... it's log, it's
log, it's better than bad, it's good!"
--
Kyle Haight
Kyle Haight
Nostromo <nost...@nospam.org> wrote:
>
>Though I agree with you in broad terms, I still think well crafted
>adventure games have a strong place in the industry. Name me 3 crpgs
>this decade which had a *primary* focus on story & puzzle-solving, as
>opposed to hack & slash, stat/number-crunching or phat loot collection.
>I can only think of VTMB & perhaps The Witcher. I rest my case ;-p.
I'd suggest Gothic and Gothic 2 as well -- released in 2001 and 2003
respectively, so they qualify as "this decade". Arx Fatalis may also
qualify. But all three of those games are relatively old -- none more
recent than 2003, so I think your general point still stands. This
kind of game is not often made by the modern game development studio.
--
Kyle Haight
Mike S.
wrote:
>I think CRPG does everything the adventure games did, with less arbitrary
>nonsense, and a better feeling of real control. If we notice the adventure
>aspects of a CRPG, it is because CRPG has *subsumed* it.
I like graphic adventures and I have wondered on occasion what killed
them off. I don't think RPGs had much to do with it though since a
game like King's Quest or the Secret of Monkey Island has a completely
different feel to it then something like Fallout or Baldur's Gate.
Best I could come up with are two factors.
Factor one. Myst. It started with 7th Guest, but Myst, due to its
enormous popularity changed how graphic adventures were made. No more
use item A in clever way B to solve puzzle C like in all the games
from Sierra or LucasArts prior to that time. After Myst, there was a
changeover to put logic puzzles into graphic adventures. I don't think
any of these games sold very well after Myst. I certainly never bought
any of them. I never welcomed sliding puzzles in my graphic
adventures. Did you? The game had other problems to that were also
copied by other companies but I won't get into that here but
ultimately I think it was a graphic adventure, not any RPG, that
helped put and end to adventure games.
Factor two. Changing demographic and\or times. Games had to get
*faster paced*. RPGs can do this. They did it with the rise of Diablo
style games. They did it with the move from something like Fallout 1
and 2 to Fallout 3. Graphic adventures can not do this at all. They
tried with something like King's Quest 8 but failed. They are what
they are. They could not adapt and so they died out. But I can go from
playing the original Bard's Tale in DosBox one day to playing Lord of
the Rings Online the next so I know RPGs can change. I think that has
helped to keep them around.
Leo
blabbed:
>>"It's log, it's log, it's big, it's heavy, it's wood... it's log, it's
>>log, it's better than bad, it's good!"
>
>LOL-f'-in-L. That's a slice of awesome. I can't place it. Where's it from?
I could be wrong, but I think ren and stimpy, if memory
serves. Cause everybody loves a log!
Leo
Werner Spahl
> One of the designers of the original System Shock, which was similar to
> the sequel in this respect, once joked that "we have NPCs, they're just
> all dead."
Yeah, and that's what I disliked about SS2 so much, because Half-Life had
just shown how well NPCs could be handled in modern games. And in a linear
FPS no less!
Mike S.
<sp...@cup.uni-muenchen.de> wrote:
>Yeah, and that's what I disliked about SS2 so much, because Half-Life had
>just shown how well NPCs could be handled in modern games. And in a linear
>FPS no less!
Having people run around that you could talk to in SS2 would not work.
You know, that whole 'you are alone' thing. I thought reading those
dead people's logs was effective and creepy.
Mike S.
wrote:
>To be sure. That's why I mentioned "less arbitrary nonsense." Have you ever
>heard of Discworld? It's renowned for its inane illogic. So much so that Terry
>Pratchett makes fun of it in Discworld 2. <G>
I do remember this game but I never played it.
>Companies also did the usual maneuver of *believing* that to attract that
>audience, they had to *imitate* Myst.
Yep, definitely. They seem to make this mistake a lot. :)
>Hell, now you've made me go and subscribe to .adventure. Would you like to pick
>up this conversation there? (I'm sure it'd be about as welcome as a "What is an
>RPG?" thread here). <G>
That's ok I don't have much else to add. I am already subscribed to
.adventure anyway but I haven't actually posted anything in there in
years.
Ross Ridge
> Since character progression quickly takes characters well beyond the
> capabilities of real humans, it's best explained by magic anyways. I see
> having training or not in a game as being a question of complexity.
> With traiing the player may have to consider things like wether its
> better to continue forward in the dungeon or go back to train, or whether
> spend money on a shiney new sword or to save up to pay the next level's
> training fee. Not all games want that level of complexity however.
In article <gnrv3...@news5.newsguy.com>, MJB <mrt...@OLDsguy.com> wrote:
>Aren't games that allow a character to gain advancement via 'training'
>introducing an economic 'reality' into games that they generally completely
>lack? The character doesn't pay for food - the character doen't pay for
>shelter - the character doesn't pay for clothing or gear or anything else.
Sure, but while having to worry about your boots wearing out make things
more realistic it's also the sort of complexity most games avoid. All
games trade realism for simplicity somewhere in their design. The fact
that character progression in RPGs isn't realistic to begin with just
means you're not actually giving up much realism by not having training.
>For me Morrowind struck a pretty good balance for the issue of training -
>gaing a point in a particular skill took time and a lot of money. And you
>had to seek out particular trainers and do particular quests to gain the
>higher levels of training. Plus it cost a lot of coin to accomplish it.
I didn't see the need for training in Morrowind. I found my skills
going up fast, way too fast, without it. Training just made a broken
system even more broken.
Ross Ridge
--
l/ // Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
[oo][oo] rri...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
-()-/()/ http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~rridge/
db //
MJB
"Ross Ridge" <rri...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> wrote in message
news:go3vju$rf$1...@rumours.uwaterloo.ca...
> "Ross Ridge" <rri...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
>
>>For me Morrowind struck a pretty good balance for the issue of training -
>>gaing a point in a particular skill took time and a lot of money. And you
>>had to seek out particular trainers and do particular quests to gain the
>>higher levels of training. Plus it cost a lot of coin to accomplish it.
>
> I didn't see the need for training in Morrowind. I found my skills
> going up fast, way too fast, without it. Training just made a broken
> system even more broken.
>
Oh - but then I NEVER trained in my primary skills. I only paid for
training in the skills I rarely used.
<shrug>
That might be contrary to the designer's intent, but I found using training
that way worked just fine.
--
MJB
Mr. Tin's Miniature Painting Workshop:
http://web.newsguy.com/Mrtinsworkshop/
Ross Ridge
>I like graphic adventures and I have wondered on occasion what killed
>them off.
Hmm... I don't know about "graphic adventure" games, but every time I
hear about the adventure game genre being dead, I have to wonder what
people are taklking about. It may not be as big as used to be but there's
still companies like Dreamcatcher are still producing them regularily.
Plus there's all those licensed CSI and Nancey Drew games I keep seeing.
It's not like the space sim genre which is lucky if it gets one game
a year.
Xocyll
porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:
It is Ren and Stimpy.
Xocyll
--
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr
Kyle Haight
Yep, Ren & Stimpy. Sung to the tune of the old Slinky commercials.
"Log rolls down stairs, alone or in pairs, rolls over your neighbor's
dog." Log, from BLAMMO!
--
Kyle Haight
Michael Cecil
<rri...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
>Mike S. <mi...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>I like graphic adventures and I have wondered on occasion what killed
>>them off.
>
>Hmm... I don't know about "graphic adventure" games, but every time I
>hear about the adventure game genre being dead, I have to wonder what
>people are taklking about. It may not be as big as used to be but there's
>still companies like Dreamcatcher are still producing them regularily.
>Plus there's all those licensed CSI and Nancey Drew games I keep seeing.
>It's not like the space sim genre which is lucky if it gets one game
>a year.
>
> Ross Ridge
I'm still waiting for another Gabriel Knight...
--
Michael Cecil
Turos the Champion, Krond the Guard and Malmo the Burglar
of the Guardians of Anduin on Elendilmir of LotRO
Nostromo
Anno Domini:
>On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 11:48:59 -0500, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg, Mike S.
>wrote:
>What about the poor bastards that moaned "I'm sorry" just before they unloaded
>both barrels into you? I had a few quality 'conversations' with them. <G>
>
>I agree with you, BTW. I'm just being a pain in the arse.
Rama, the adventure game, also only had text/video logs & strange alien
semi-organic critters, but no real NPCs I can remember. Creepy game at
times.
--
Nostromo
Xocyll
entrails of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs
say:
>"Ross Ridge" <rri...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
As I recall it, it goes back to Daggerfall (maybe Arena) and the three
levels of skills.
Primary skills go up faster than Secondary skills which go up faster
than Tertiary skills.
If you put all your most used skills in the primary section they go up
quite fast, if you spread them about, they level up slower making for a
more enjoyable (to me anyway) game.
Pretty sure this is explained in the manual.
I never bought training in any Primary skill - totally unnecessary.
Ross Ridge
>If you put all your most used skills in the primary section they go up
>quite fast, if you spread them about, they level up slower making for a
>more enjoyable (to me anyway) game.
>
>Pretty sure this is explained in the manual.
I don't remember the Morrowind manual saying that I shouldn't be primarily
using my primary skills. It's certainly not intuitive to play that way.
Any system that requires you to meta-game like this, requiring you to
deliberately handicap your character to enjoy the game, is as far as I'm
concern broken. There's a lot I liked about Morrowind, but it's system
for character progression was badly designed.
>I never bought training in any Primary skill - totally unnecessary.
I never saw the need to buy training in any skill. My primary and
secondary skills were more than enough. There wasn't any point in
wasting money on other skills that I didn't need and didn't use.
Darin Johnson
> I don't remember the Morrowind manual saying that I shouldn't be primarily
> using my primary skills. It's certainly not intuitive to play that way.
No, it wasn't intuitive. The big problem is that some skills are
so commonly used that they go up faster than anything else.
Ie, running and jumping/falling. That really feels like a design
mistake, since it's extremely difficult to avoid running without
the game becoming very boring very fast. It wouldn't have
been so bad if you could improve those skills without also
affecting levelling up or what happens during levelling.
The skills were not independent from each other which was
another problem, and they were tied to levelling. If instead
each skill was allowed to increase and max out on its own
and not affecting anything else, then it would have been no
problem if you maxed out athletics early. If stat increases
at level up were not tied to skill increases, then there
would not have been a problem with having your core skills
as primary skills.
It was especially bad in oblivion as the enemies got tougher
as your levels went up, so you could indeed quickly find
yourself outmatched if you levelled up because of doing
barter, speech, running, alchemy, etc, in the city at the
very start of the game, before you've improved any
really useful survival skills.
Basically it was a bad hybrid of skill based and level based
concepts, and those don't always mix well.
WDS
> On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 16:42:52 -0600, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg, Kyle Haight
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >In article <5p5aq4lcq3sj6nur151or2hiq1sndeo...@4ax.com>,
> >Leo <Anonym...@anonymous.com> wrote:
> >>On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 08:58:26 GMT, Zaghadka <zagha...@hotmail.com>
> >>blabbed:
>
> >>>>"It's log, it's log, it's big, it's heavy, it's wood... it's log, it's
> >>>>log, it's better than bad, it's good!"
>
> >>>LOL-f'-in-L. That's a slice of awesome. I can't place it. Where's it from?
>
> >> I could be wrong, but I think ren and stimpy, if memory
> >>serves. Cause everybody loves a log!
>
> >Yep, Ren & Stimpy. Sung to the tune of the old Slinky commercials.
> >"Log rolls down stairs, alone or in pairs, rolls over your neighbor's
> >dog." Log, from BLAMMO!
>
here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R537eX17wKg
Leo
blabbed:
Reminds me of the mr. hanky the x-mas poo home board game,
live action commercial on south park:
http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/150080/
Leo
Nostromo
> On Feb 26, 10:01 am, Ross Ridge <rri...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
>> I don't remember the Morrowind manual saying that I shouldn't be primarily
>
> No, it wasn't intuitive. The big problem is that some skills are
> so commonly used that they go up faster than anything else.
> Ie, running and jumping/falling. That really feels like a design
> mistake, since it's extremely difficult to avoid running without
> the game becoming very boring very fast. It wouldn't have
> been so bad if you could improve those skills without also
> affecting levelling up or what happens during levelling.
>
> The skills were not independent from each other which was
> another problem, and they were tied to levelling. If instead
> each skill was allowed to increase and max out on its own
> and not affecting anything else, then it would have been no
> problem if you maxed out athletics early. If stat increases
> at level up were not tied to skill increases, then there
> would not have been a problem with having your core skills
> as primary skills.
>
> It was especially bad in oblivion as the enemies got tougher
> as your levels went up, so you could indeed quickly find
> yourself outmatched if you levelled up because of doing
> barter, speech, running, alchemy, etc, in the city at the
> very start of the game, before you've improved any
> really useful survival skills.
>
> Basically it was a bad hybrid of skill based and level based
> concepts, and those don't always mix well.
Yup. They could have fixed is easily by getting you to nominate your
main combat skills separately, & average those out to calculate an
opponents relative strength. But, the entire auto-leveling of mobs is
utterly, totally borked imo anyway, so that it's the thing that needed
to be addressed far more than level calculation. Imagine if Oblivion had
no provision for modding...? (you can see now how cunning it was of the
unscrupulous & apathetic arsewipes to allow the game to be finished by
the fan base) - pfft!).
--
Nostromo
Ross Ridge
>The skills were not independent from each other which was
>another problem, and they were tied to levelling. If instead
>each skill was allowed to increase and max out on its own
>and not affecting anything else, then it would have been no
>problem if you maxed out athletics early. If stat increases
>at level up were not tied to skill increases, then there
>would not have been a problem with having your core skills
>as primary skills.
>
>It was especially bad in oblivion as the enemies got tougher
>as your levels went up, so you could indeed quickly find
>yourself outmatched if you levelled up because of doing
>barter, speech, running, alchemy, etc, in the city at the
>very start of the game, before you've improved any
>really useful survival skills.
>
>Basically it was a bad hybrid of skill based and level based
>concepts, and those don't always mix well.
Yah, although having skills indepedent of levelling can also have its
own problems. If you also have monsters levelling up with the characters
then counterintuitively you may end up wanting to keep your level as low
as possible while focusing solely increasing your skills and abilities.
Final Fantasy VIII was game like this.
I think the basic problem is having monsters level up with the character
but the character's level not accurately reflecting the character's
ability to defeat monsters. In Morrowind one level 10 character might
be able to kill a level 10 monster in a single hit, while a different
level 10 character might not have a snowball's chance in hell of beating
the same monster.
WDS
> I think the basic problem is having monsters level up with the character
> but the character's level not accurately reflecting the character's
> ability to defeat monsters. In Morrowind one level 10 character might
> be able to kill a level 10 monster in a single hit, while a different
> level 10 character might not have a snowball's chance in hell of beating
> the same monster.
This will forever be a problem with computationally done challenges
and isn't unique to cRPGs. In D&D 3(.5)E they have this idea of CR
(Challenge Rating) for encounters that you can supposedly compute and
compare to your party to see if they can handle it. The problem is it
just doesn't work. Before I gave up on even bothering with it I saw
my group almost be slaughtered by something that should have been easy
according to CR and vice versa as well. It takes an experienced game
master who knows the characters and how their players play them in
order to properly balance an encounter. And no computer program can
do that.
Games where you can gimp or powergame your character make it even
worse of course.
Ross Ridge
>This will forever be a problem with computationally done challenges
>and isn't unique to cRPGs. In D&D 3(.5)E they have this idea of CR
>(Challenge Rating) for encounters that you can supposedly compute and
>compare to your party to see if they can handle it. The problem is it
>just doesn't work. Before I gave up on even bothering with it I saw
>my group almost be slaughtered by something that should have been easy
>according to CR and vice versa as well. It takes an experienced game
>master who knows the characters and how their players play them in
>order to properly balance an encounter. And no computer program can
>do that.
Well, it doesn't have to be perfect. So long as only the only occasional
battle is overpowered the player of computer game can compensate in
various ways. Like reloading and trying different tactics or avoiding
the encounter altogether. Wizardry 8 picked different enemies based
on character level, and it more or less worked, although at certain
points in the game you'd get more than the occasional unintentially
overpowered enemies. It would've been much better if they had more
kinds of monsters to smooth out the jumps in difficulty.
On the other hand, leveling up monsters like Oblivion instead of picking
level appropriate monsters would also smoothed out the difficulty but
I would've hated that. I want there to be more of different between a
dragon and giant rat than one breathes fire. It hard to feel a sense
of progression, of becoming a powerful hero when you can just as easily
defeat a dragon (or a rat) at the start of the game as at end of it.
Kyle Haight
Ross Ridge <rri...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
>
>On the other hand, leveling up monsters like Oblivion instead of picking
>level appropriate monsters would also smoothed out the difficulty but
>I would've hated that.
I was amused by the way the bandits on the road scaled up. Towards the
end of the game I'd get accosted by bandits whose equipment was worth
tens if not hundreds of thousands of gold pieces, demanding that I cough
up 50 or 100 gold pieces as a toll on the road. The economics there
just don't make sense.
--
Kyle Haight
Memnoch
wrote:
That's just a game designed by an engineer, to coin a phrase. No thought
behind it, just scaling look up tables.
Gerry Quinn
zagh...@hotmail.com says...
> They may have been right there. I'm sure they did market studies. Grim Fandango
> was *superb*, but it just didn't attract much interest.
>
> So maybe we can add "incompetant marketing" to the list.
Or incompetent purchasing?
- Gerry Quinn
great_awesome
"Memnoch" <mem...@nospampleaseimbritish.ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:dnljq454fi0k72c5i...@4ax.com...
That just means the artistry wasn't good enough to conceal the engineering.
All art has engineering as a fundamental component.
Maybe one definition of art could be, "logic and order presented in a
surprising way".
Dimensional Traveler
> WDS <Bi...@seurer.net> wrote:
>> This will forever be a problem with computationally done challenges
>> and isn't unique to cRPGs. In D&D 3(.5)E they have this idea of CR
>> (Challenge Rating) for encounters that you can supposedly compute and
>> compare to your party to see if they can handle it. The problem is
>> it just doesn't work. Before I gave up on even bothering with it I
>> saw my group almost be slaughtered by something that should have
>> been easy according to CR and vice versa as well. It takes an
>> experienced game master who knows the characters and how their
>> players play them in order to properly balance an encounter. And no
>> computer program can do that.
>
> Well, it doesn't have to be perfect. So long as only the only
> occasional battle is overpowered the player of computer game can
> compensate in various ways. Like reloading and trying different
> tactics or avoiding the encounter altogether. Wizardry 8 picked
> different enemies based on character level, and it more or less worked,
> although at certain
> points in the game you'd get more than the occasional unintentially
> overpowered enemies. It would've been much better if they had more
> kinds of monsters to smooth out the jumps in difficulty.
>
Actually, Wiz8 had the upper and lower ends of the monster levels set by
zone. Wander in to a new zone too soon and you _would_ get munched.
--
"What Kind of perv rememembers the scenes where she's clothed???" -
Anim8rFSK, 8/23/08
Memnoch
wrote:
Yeah. A well engineered game should obscure the mechanics that drive it. The
Bethesda games aren't very good at doing this in my opinion.
MJB
>>>Maybe one definition of art could be, "logic and order presented in a
>>surprising way".
>
> Yeah. A well engineered game should obscure the mechanics that drive it.
> The
> Bethesda games aren't very good at doing this in my opinion.
Without discussing the Eldar scroll series (and by extension fallout 3)
specifically - I have to say I disagree with the notion that obscuring the
mechanics that drive a game is indicating 'good engineering'. My experience
is that games that take the 'black box' approach - just telling you the
results (ie, the output) without showing you the effect of your input (ie,
your actions) on said results force you to accept the validity of the 'black
box' (ie, the engineering) and must therefore trust and believe the derived
results are both valid, truthful and realistic. Maybe it isn't particularly
germain to a discussion in a crpg group - but in a wargaming setting a 'bad
box' - generating un-realistic or utterly falacious results with
'historical' data sets is completely damning to the design and the engineers
behind it.
My experience with computer games of all sorts is that I'd rather know what
numbers the black box is crunching so I can adjust my tactics / behavior
accordingly rather than just randomly thrash around in a computerized
world-view until I am somehow 'successful' and have no clear idea what I did
to attain eventual success. That reminds me way too much of 'real-time'
strategy style button-mashing for my tastes. Where you just keep clicking
random combinations of keyboard strokes until something positive happens on
the screen...
I reject the notion that 'realism' in a world-style simulation can only be
attained by ignorance of what said simulation is doing inside the game
designer's 'magic box of results'.
--
MJB
Mr. Tin's Miniature Painting Workshop:
http://web.newsguy.com/Mrtinsworkshop/
Nostromo
2009 16:00:45 GMT, Anno Domini:
>>Maybe one definition of art could be, "logic and order presented in a
>>surprising way".
>
>Yeah. A well engineered game should obscure the mechanics that drive it. The
>Bethesda games aren't very good at doing this in my opinion.
The mechanics in a Bethesda game ARE most of the game imo lol! And once you
get over that (or not), the emperor lies ugly & nekkid before you in a wet
sandpit with an evil look in his eye. >8^D
--
Nostromo
Nostromo
Domini:
>
>"Memnoch" <mem...@nospampleaseimbritish.ntlworld.com> wrote in message
>news:h7clq4l09cj04b3sa...@4ax.com...
>>>>Maybe one definition of art could be, "logic and order presented in a
>>>surprising way".
>>
>> Yeah. A well engineered game should obscure the mechanics that drive it.
>> The
>> Bethesda games aren't very good at doing this in my opinion.
>
>Without discussing the Eldar scroll series (and by extension fallout 3)
>specifically - I have to say I disagree with the notion that obscuring the
>mechanics that drive a game is indicating 'good engineering'. My experience
>is that games that take the 'black box' approach - just telling you the
>results (ie, the output) without showing you the effect of your input (ie,
>your actions) on said results force you to accept the validity of the 'black
>box' (ie, the engineering) and must therefore trust and believe the derived
>results are both valid, truthful and realistic. Maybe it isn't particularly
>germain to a discussion in a crpg group - but in a wargaming setting a 'bad
>box' - generating un-realistic or utterly falacious results with
>'historical' data sets is completely damning to the design and the engineers
>behind it.
Crpgs aren't wargames. A good crpg takes the focus _away_ from the mechanics
& stats & concentrates on flowing gameplay, storyline, NPC interaction &
yes, customising your character. Not that we've had a good one in quite some
time, except for TW.
You're not an accountant, engineer or statistician by any chance MJB? ;-p
>My experience with computer games of all sorts is that I'd rather know what
>numbers the black box is crunching so I can adjust my tactics / behavior
>accordingly rather than just randomly thrash around in a computerized
>world-view until I am somehow 'successful' and have no clear idea what I did
>to attain eventual success. That reminds me way too much of 'real-time'
>strategy style button-mashing for my tastes. Where you just keep clicking
>random combinations of keyboard strokes until something positive happens on
>the screen...
I'm actually with you there, though not to extent you may be. I'd rather a
game like GW, where you can change your loadout or skills (almost completely
in some cases) & adapt the tactics accordingly, rather than do detailed
analysis on number outputs & try to reverse engineer the results. I'd rather
a game lead you through the issues with your current approach with visual
queues or pop-ups such as "damage type ineffective" or "you only seem to be
doing minimal/half damage with that weapon" or "the [critter] reels/cowers
back from your fiery sword", etc.
>I reject the notion that 'realism' in a world-style simulation can only be
>attained by ignorance of what said simulation is doing inside the game
>designer's 'magic box of results'.
They just need a better way to convey the bonuses/penalties/effects than
with just numbers, appreciating that the actual stats & values we are
ultimately affecting are just numbers mostly (hit points, stats, movement
rates, etc). There must be a way to integrate qualitative feedback that
doesn't disrupt flow or necessitate the player being a mathematician.
Just my 5c worth...
--
Nostromo
Scatter
> I was amused by the way the bandits on the road scaled up. Towards the
> end of the game I'd get accosted by bandits whose equipment was worth
> tens if not hundreds of thousands of gold pieces, demanding that I cough
> up 50 or 100 gold pieces as a toll on the road. The economics there
> just don't make sense.
Perhaps it is an allegory of modern corporate greed?
--
Scatter
sticking it to the man
Scatter
> What about the poor bastards that moaned "I'm sorry" just before they unloaded
> both barrels into you? I had a few quality 'conversations' with them. <G>
My first encouter in SS2 was a pipe wielding "zombie" and it freaked
me out when I heard him moaning "I'm sorry" -- very nice touch. I
loved the protocol droids stating "this is the trioptimum way" before
exploding all over you.
MJB
"Nostromo" <nos...@forme.org> wrote in message
news:jo3nq4tt7e2gvb15o...@4ax.com...
> Thus spake "MJB" <mrt...@OLDsguy.com>, Sun, 1 Mar 2009 09:26:04 -0700,
> Anno
> Domini:
>
>
> mechanics
> & stats & concentrates on flowing gameplay, storyline, NPC interaction &
> yes, customising your character. Not that we've had a good one in quite
> some
> time, except for TW.
Really? Crpgs don't have weapons and armor? They don't have tactics? They
don't have dead bodies strewn about the landscape after you get done
'talking'?
<shrug>
I just finshed the original Deus ex a few weeks ago - by the time I got down
to the bottom of Area 51 it was hard to judge NPC interaction except to put
a bullet in it... it sure FELT like a wargame to me.
>
> You're not an accountant, engineer or statistician by any chance MJB? ;-p
Hardly - follow the link in my sig - if you dare. I've been supporting
myself off a paint-brush for fifteen years, selling my work to collectors
all over the world. But before that I did design and program computer
systems -specifically business and accounting systems - for about fifteen
years...
<grin>
I also design miniature rules for wargames as a hobby - for people who are
much more critical than me...
>
> I'm actually with you there, though not to extent you may be. I'd rather a
> game like GW, where you can change your loadout or skills (almost
> completely
> in some cases) & adapt the tactics accordingly, rather than do detailed
> analysis on number outputs & try to reverse engineer the results. I'd
> rather
> a game lead you through the issues with your current approach with visual
> queues or pop-ups such as "damage type ineffective" or "you only seem to
> be
> doing minimal/half damage with that weapon" or "the [critter] reels/cowers
> back from your fiery sword", etc.
I think you're missing my point. It's not enough that you know you failed
in a crpg - you have to know HOW you failed and by how much. And knowing
the mechanics the engineeres used to generate both failure and sucess is
useful for having of understanding of what can happen - otherwise is just is
button-mashing and hot-loading after failure results in the character's
extinction.
You're also ignoring the reality that while you are plumped down in the
middle of this imaginary world, your character has lived in the world-system
for between fifteen or twenty years. So you already know things that SHOULD
clue you how the world you're inhabiting works - and being able to see the
enginering - the dice rolls, so to speak - can tell you things.
<shrug>
>
>>I reject the notion that 'realism' in a world-style simulation can only be
>>attained by ignorance of what said simulation is doing inside the game
>>designer's 'magic box of results'.
>
> They just need a better way to convey the bonuses/penalties/effects than
> with just numbers, appreciating that the actual stats & values we are
> ultimately affecting are just numbers mostly (hit points, stats, movement
> rates, etc). There must be a way to integrate qualitative feedback that
> doesn't disrupt flow or necessitate the player being a mathematician.
> Just my 5c worth...
I'm not saying you have to be a mathematican - the computer handles that
better. What I'm saying is that you - the character - know things the
visual screen does not tell you but access to numbers CAN tell you.
Otherwise you are just button-mashing and hot-loading after a failure.
Sword doesn't work - you're dead. Re-load. Fireball doesn't work - you're
dead. Re-load. Ice spell doesn't work - you're dead. Re-load. Spark
spell makes the creature reel. Oh - it's immune to weapons, fire and cold -
it only took being killed THREE times to learn that...
<grin>
Briarroot
And just how does this "modern corporate greed" (*) differ from the
natural self-interest found in all races and classes of ordinary human
beings everywhere?
(*) Assuming both that such a thing exists and that it is somehow
different from traditional corporate self-interest.
--
"We've gone astray from first principles. We've lost sight of the rule
that individual freedom and ingenuity are at the very core of everything
that we've accomplished. Government's first duty is to protect the
people, not run their lives." - Ronald Reagan