Daggerfall Dungeons
Adam Connor
I've now played Daggerfall for many hours; I'm at level 9. I've
mainly played strategy games in the past.
Some comments on things I wished they had done differently (and
perhaps will do differently in TES 3?) in designing the dungeons:
Dungeon crawl dominates the game. Yes, there are other things to do,
but without constantly fishing for better quests (via save/restore),
more than 75% of the game is Dungeon crawl.
Strengths:
1) They're big. (Too big, in fact.)
2) Good sense of 3D.
3) Lots of neat ideas/effects (e.g., underwater, caverns,
teleportation walls...)
Weaknesses:
1) The Dungeons are repeated; at level 9, I'm already seeing bits and
pieces of prior dungeons used over and over again. So much for the
sense of wonder.
2) The dungeons sometimes don't make any sense; I've been in dungeons
that felt like random corridors strung together. (They WERE random
corridors strung together.)
3) The dungeons are too large, and the automap doesn't help enough.
4) The monster bashing gets dull. Once you've killed the fifteenth
werewof, do you really want to hack down 500 more? There really isn't
that much variety, in terms of combat considerations. Hack 'n' slash.
5) Too much eye candy in the dungeons. What's the point of having
shelves full of things if I can't click on them?
6) Poor internal consistency. Treasure icons often don't match the
treasure found. I fight a skeletal warrior armed with an axe, but when
I examine the remains I only find a knife. Etc. This makes the game
less believable.
7) Too many dungeons require the save cheat to survive. I hate the
save cheat; it cheapens the game.
8) There are too many bugs in the graphics engine.
9) The algorithm for determining that "enemies are near" appears to
use straight distince...never mind that there are stone walls and
miles of corridors between the orc and me. There is no excuse for
this.
Suggestions:
1) Better dungeon design. Either a better algorithm for generating
them, or hand-designed dungeons. Smaller dungeons would help.
2) More thought on the automap. Allow annotations. Even more
importantly, when the automap is in flat mode, ONLY SHOW ME MY LEVEL
by default. Better coloring to prevent distinct paths from merging
visually.
3) More intelligence in the dungeons monsters would help individuate
them. Why don't they ever try to speak to me? Gimme a break.
4) Orthogonal features. If it looks like a shelf full of armor, it
should BE a shelf full of armor, IN ALL CIRCUMSTANCES: stores, homes,
dungeons, etc.
5) Consistency tracking, so that a monster fights and dies with the
same weapons. This also implies that the monster's damager potential
should depend somewhat on its weapons.
6) More info on the dungeon before I accept the quest. (This applies
to quests generally. The idea that I would say yes without getting
full details -- what dungeon? what's likely to be in it? level of
difficults? etc. -- is stupid.
7) FIX THE GRAPHICS ENGINE BUGS! I am TIRED of sticking to walls,
seeing spider-legs through walls, etc.
What I would really like to see is a lot more depth added to the
dungeons...libraries full of books available no where else,
interesting NPCs that you could never find in town, even entire cities
down below...As it is, dungeons simultaneously dominate the gameplay
of Daggerfall and provide one of the shallowest experiences. Bad
mixture, and I'm getting pretty tired of Daggerfall a few weeks after
buying it. Oh, well. It's not a bad game; if you liked Doom, Quake,
etc. you might like it. But it doesn't have enough depth, in my
experience so far. (And yes, I've done a lot of non-dungeon quests
too. Those are just as shallow...)
Adam Connor
Raeihle
Adam,
If you don't mind sharing some info...
What is the save game cheat for getting out of dungeons, I have been
lost in so many. I would greatly appreciate it.
Thanks,
-ROB-
Adam Connor
Raeihle <raei...@villagenet.com> wrote:
>Adam,
>
>If you don't mind sharing some info...
>What is the save game cheat for getting out of dungeons, I have been
>lost in so many. I would greatly appreciate it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The save-game cheat is for surviving dungeons, not finding your way
back to the entrance. The cheat is simple: save frequently. When you
run into a vampire ancient and get obliterated, back up to the most
recent save. ;-)
I usually arrange my saved game slots as follows:
Save 0 - Pre Quest (in case I want to ditch the whole quest)
Save 1 - near exit (last time I was at the dungeon entrance)
Save 2 - healed (last time I was fully healed)
Save 3 - Save 5: points since save 2.
I also number the saved games, so I can tell chronology at a
glance...
As other folks have pointed out, recall (i.e., teleport) is the
easiest way to get back to the beginning of the dungeon.
best,
Adam Connor
Christian Seitz
In article <326a8a04...@newshost.cc.utexas.edu>,
adam....@mail.utexas.edu (Adam Connor) wrote:
> Raeihle <raei...@villagenet.com> wrote:
>
>
> >Adam,
> >
> >If you don't mind sharing some info...
> >What is the save game cheat for getting out of dungeons, I have been
> >lost in so many. I would greatly appreciate it.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You don't need an exit cheat. Just make a Teleport Spell and set the
anchor near the entrance.
Christian Seitz
MasterMojo
>You don't need an exit cheat. Just make a Teleport Spell and set the
anchor near the entrance.
I found that if I cast a teleport anchor at the entrance, save, go in,
explore, save again, die, restore #2, when I cast teleport it says I have
no anchor... any ideas?
---- Matt
Anastasia
had a problem with the RECALL spell, and I often have 4 or 5 save
games between the anchor and the teleport, with deaths inbetween and
subsequent restores as you mention. I can even ANCHOR in Daggerfall
for example, at the castle, go out to a dungeon somewhere, be deep in
its bowels having obtained the quest item, and TELEPORT back to
Daggerfall! No problemo! So, dunno why it doesn't work for you.
Don Nalezyty
Hey all,
MasterMojo, maste...@aol.com writes:
>I found that if I cast a teleport anchor at the entrance, save, go in,
>explore, save again, die, restore #2, when I cast teleport it says I have
>no anchor... any ideas?
Yes, I have an idea and then again I also have the way it really
works. Essentially, when you cast teleport anchor, you leave a small bit
of yourself at that point. When you cast teleport, you travel to that
small fragment of your self and are reunited. When you walk away, you
are whole... so if you try to cast teleport again you go nowhere because
there's no little piece of you out there calling you to itself.
As for how it really works, much the same way as above, but in C.
Any comments on how this works? Rather see something different in TES
III? Let me know.
Later,
Don
Bard Lite
Don Nalezyty wrote:
[teleport explanation deleted]
> Any comments on how this works? Rather see something different in TES
> III? Let me know.
I would *love* to have the ability to cast multiple teleport anchors!
Perhaps the number of anchors you can have could be limited by some
stat or attribute? Mis-cast and you end up at the wrong anchor point?
Great game, btw. Are there any add-ons planned for DF, or is all of
the effort going to go into TES III?
[posted and e-mailed]
Cheers,
michael
--
- /| <*> <*> <*> <*> <*> | michael may == mm...@mcd.intel.com
\`O.o' Just Say `NO' to Rugs | Disclaimer: HEY! That's MY disc!
={___}= - the American Hardwood | I speak only for myself and the
` U ' Floor Association | large Wombat in the corner.
Rob Berryhill
Don Nalezyty <dnal...@mail.bethsoft.com> wrote:
>Hey all,
> Any comments on how this works? Rather see something different in TES
>III? Let me know.
>Don
Thanks for asking Don. And, yes, I would rather see something like a
coordinate system or something where you could have multiple locations
to which to travel, whic is not possible with the anchor system.
Thanks & keep up the excellent work! Thanks for a great game,
_________________________________________________________________
|Daereth Softstrider | aka Rob Berryhill|
|Minister of Commerce | ind...@bga.com|
|Islandeers, Britannia Online | Scribe of High Rock|
|http://www.realtime.net/~indyfan/ |Scribes of the Elder Scrolls|
==================================================================
Yama
Don Nalezyty <dnal...@mail.bethsoft.com> wrote:
> Any comments on how this works? Rather see something different in TES
>III? Let me know.
>
>Later,
>Don
Well, multiple anchors (Named anchors?) would be fantastic.
Yama
D.D. Johnston
On Wed, 23 Oct 96 19:36:07 GMT, cle...@zoomnet.net (Chris) wrote:
>Hello, I'm not complaining about your posts, some have been annoying, but most
>have been very entertaining at times. The mystery is killing me though, what
>are you about? Do you sit at home giggling in anticipation of the flames when
>you hit the send button? You are an enigma, it seems you peruse 100's of posts
>a day, looking for a thread you can cause controversy on. Oh well, keep it up
>if you enjoy it, your post seem to make people think about their opinions
>
Hell, I enjoy it too. I never miss one of his posts - not for the
philosophy but for the humor.
Some time ago a poster was coming down on him pretty hard and had
misspelled a word in his posting. The word "droll" was misspelled
"drole". That gave Marcus a great opening. His response?
"It's droll, troll". Cracked me up!
He's really not an enigma - he's just having fun.
ddj
Chris
Bill Bohlen
Yama wrote:
>
> Don Nalezyty <dnal...@mail.bethsoft.com> wrote:
> > Any comments on how this works? Rather see something different in TES
> >III? Let me know.
> >
> >Later,
> >Don
>
I've been playing first-person CRPG's since they were born, I think if
people compare this game to a classic like Eye of the Beholder they'll
see what a leap forward it is. I think a lot of the gripes about the
dungeon design stem from the fact that there aren't many aboveground
quests that are in places outside of towns.
The dungeons do get convoluted at times, I think the only way around
that would be to put more big rooms in the mix. Maybe have the player
hit spacebar in map mode to let the mouse control the map with left
button moving in and right button moving out, cursor keys control z-axis
rotation.
Also have a dungeon piece change color or be marked with a scroll to
indicate that you've left a message on the automap.
So far I like the variety of dungeons I've seen, especially the "big
rooms". I think what a lot of people are missing in the dungeons is NPC
interaction. This can be remedied by making quests more involved.
Perhaps a smaller storyline for each Guild and Temple.
Allow characters to interact with the enemy if they have the language
skill. Consider implementing a bribery skill for dealing with humanoid
enemies. A default response relating to the quest would improve
realism.
Overall, I think the best way to improve TES doesn't lie in the dungeon
design--it's the text engine that needs work.
Stefan Hager
Don Nalezyty wrote:
> Yes, I have an idea and then again I also have the way it really
> works. Essentially, when you cast teleport anchor, you leave a small bit
> of yourself at that point. When you cast teleport, you travel to that
> small fragment of your self and are reunited. When you walk away, you
> are whole... so if you try to cast teleport again you go nowhere because
> there's no little piece of you out there calling you to itself.
> As for how it really works, much the same way as above, but in C.
> III? Let me know.
How about some ingredients for that spell, like a piece of a very special
stone or something that is magically prepared for you ? I'd also like to see that there
is a possibility to set multiple anchors. If you don't leave a part of yourself
but just an expensive spell component, it should be possible :)
BTW, I'd also like to see some kind of fast travel within cities...
--
Blessings,
Khaelon
The next sentence is true. The previous sentence was a lie.
http://nuernberg.netsurf.de/User/shager
Werner Punz
mar...@wr.com.au (Lord Marcus Dracon) wrote:
>Thank you disciple. I am against all junk games and Daggerfall is my
>current target.
>
Fascinating, and you never played the game.
Werner
we...@inflab.uni-linz.ac.at
http://witiko.ifs.uni-linz.ac.at/~werpu
----------------------------------------------
Check out ftp://ftp.gmd.de/if-archive for something
which has been forgotten years ago.
Led Mirage
In article <32712685...@news.australia.net.au>,
Lord Marcus Dracon <mar...@wr.com.au> wrote:
>Thank you disciple. I am against all junk games and Daggerfall is my
>current target.
Dear Lord. What about BC3K? From what I've read in c.s.i.p.g.strategy,
its definitely a junk game (I don't own that thing nor do I intend to).
Enough about Daggerfall, its not the only junk game out there (and been
hyped to death).
Beaudoin
In article <32755933...@news.wr.com.au>, mar...@wr.com.au says...
>
>What is BC3K????
>
Battle Cruiser 3000.
Led Mirage
In article <32755933...@news.wr.com.au>,>What is BC3K????
>
BattleCruiser 3000 A.D. 7 years in the making, nural net AI yada yada yada.
When it came out, it turned out to be a beta, and with a manuel that's
almost useful, not to mention buggy as hell (taken from
c.s.i.p.g.strategy. I don't own that clunker).
Lord Marcus Dracon
Is it a RPG. I have never heard of it. Does that mean because
Daggeryawn is so buggy it is also a beta which was never tested. Hang
on you buy Daggerfall and you beta test it on behalf of Bethesda, hmm
an interesting concept.
Nick Old
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg, Don Nalezyty
<dnal...@mail.bethsoft.com> wrote:
> Any comments on how this works? Rather see something different in TES
>III? Let me know.
As far as the teleport spell goes, I would love to be able to set
multiple anchors. But I think adding that ability (or other
enhancements) would have to be done with extreme caution - it would be
very easy to destroy game balance if the spell were made too powerful.
One thing that might cut back on some of the repetitiveness without
upsetting game balance would be to make the anchor 'reusable'; ie,
once set at a location you wouldn't have to reset it every time you
returned to it.
Another possibility would be to keep the current teleport spell, but
add a second very difficult to cast one that would allow more anchors
and/or other advanced features. One that needs so many spell points
to cast that only a skilled and intelligent mage class character would
be able to cast it.
But PLEASE make sure you don't wind up with a super teleport that
gives the character the power to go anywhere he or she wants, without
regard for game puzzles, obstacles, etc. - that would do as much
damage to the play balance of TES III as the shield spell did to
Arena's.
BTW: I'm fairly new to this newsgroup, and I really appreciate your
taking the time to participate and answer questions here.
Thanks for listening, and have a great day! :-)
--
Nick
Led Mirage
In article <327304...@wr.com.au>,
Lord Marcus Dracon <mar...@wr.com.au> wrote:
>Is it a RPG. I have never heard of it. Does that mean because
>Daggeryawn is so buggy it is also a beta which was never tested. Hang
>on you buy Daggerfall and you beta test it on behalf of Bethesda, hmm
>an interesting concept.
No, BC3K is a strategy/space combat sim/the mother of all games. Trouble
is that its still in betatesting when they released it. Yeah, I'm really
regreting not heeding your advice and bought Daggerfall. LE At that AND
paid extra because I don't live in the State. Boy do I feel ripped off.
Daggeryawn is truely a fitting name. It totally bored the hell out of me.
I hope Wizardry Nemesis is better.
slink
Does that mean people who use teleport a lot aren't all there? <grin>
Sandra (a firm believer in the Recall spell)
Don Nalezyty <dnal...@mail.bethsoft.com> wrote:
>Hey all,
> MasterMojo, maste...@aol.com writes:
>>I found that if I cast a teleport anchor at the entrance, save, go in,
>>explore, save again, die, restore #2, when I cast teleport it says I have
>>no anchor... any ideas?
> Yes, I have an idea and then again I also have the way it really
>works. Essentially, when you cast teleport anchor, you leave a small bit
>of yourself at that point. When you cast teleport, you travel to that
>small fragment of your self and are reunited. When you walk away, you
>are whole... so if you try to cast teleport again you go nowhere because
>there's no little piece of you out there calling you to itself.
> As for how it really works, much the same way as above, but in C.
> Any comments on how this works? Rather see something different in TES
>III? Let me know.
>Later,
>Don
Mike Weldon
In article <32755933...@news.wr.com.au> mar...@wr.com.au (Lord Marcus Dracon) writes:
>What is BC3K????
Battlecruiser: 3000AD
also known as
The Great White Hype: 3000AD
or
the former King/Queen of Vaporwape
Mike
Keith A
Lord Marcus Dracon wrote:
>
> I will add it to my list of junk games.
You mean junk games you have NEVER played.
Brian Oster
Don Nalezyty <dnal...@mail.bethsoft.com> wrote:
>Hey all,
> MasterMojo, maste...@aol.com writes:
>>I found that if I cast a teleport anchor at the entrance, save, go in,
>>explore, save again, die, restore #2, when I cast teleport it says I have
>>no anchor... any ideas?
> Yes, I have an idea and then again I also have the way it really
>works. Essentially, when you cast teleport anchor, you leave a small bit
>of yourself at that point. When you cast teleport, you travel to that
>small fragment of your self and are reunited. When you walk away, you
>are whole... so if you try to cast teleport again you go nowhere because
>there's no little piece of you out there calling you to itself.
> As for how it really works, much the same way as above, but in C.
> Any comments on how this works? Rather see something different in TES
>III? Let me know.
>Later,
>Don
If I am not mistaken, MasterMojo is saying that when he sets an
anchor, saves, dies, restores save he can not teleport back
to his anchor... like the anchor was not saved when he saved
the game. I had the same thing happen to me. I entered a
dungeon, set an anchor, saved the game and then went off to
explore. I saved several more times in new slots while exploring. If
I died I restored the last saved game. When I killed the leader of
the Orcs I went to teleport back to my anchor and I got a message
saying that I had not set an anchor. I have not seen any other
posts about this and it has only happened to me once so I am
assuming it was just a one time glitch. If it has happened to other
people than maybe its a bug...
The only thing I would like to see in TES3 III is the ability to set
multiple anchors... maybe when selecting teleport it brings up a
screen similar to the save game screen which gives you a choice
of several anchors to teleport to. That way I could set an anchor
at the beggining get way into the dungeon set another anchor
teleport back to the beggining unload all my junk into the cart
and teleport back to the second anchor without having to crawl
back through the endless maze to find where I had left off.
Brian Oster
Nick Old
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg, bgo...@flash.net (Brian Oster) wrote:
>If I am not mistaken, MasterMojo is saying that when he sets an
>anchor, saves, dies, restores save he can not teleport back
>to his anchor... like the anchor was not saved when he saved
>the game. I had the same thing happen to me. I entered a
>dungeon, set an anchor, saved the game and then went off to
>explore. I saved several more times in new slots while exploring. If
>I died I restored the last saved game. When I killed the leader of
>the Orcs I went to teleport back to my anchor and I got a message
>saying that I had not set an anchor. I have not seen any other
>posts about this and it has only happened to me once so I am
>assuming it was just a one time glitch. If it has happened to other
>people than maybe its a bug...
In case you missed it: in another thread several people noted that
there are problems in Daggerfall if you die and then reload a saved
game without first exiting.
For me, reloading after death (without first exiting the game) seems
to make the game far more likely to crash. Others reported that they
had problems with the (S)witch hands command not working if they
reloaded a save (after dying) without exiting the game.
No idea if the above problem with teleport anchors disappearing is the
same. Did you reload after death without exiting, or did you quit and
reload the game first? I know my characters have died a 'few' times,
and I don't ever remember having a teleport anchor disappear as a
result. But I automatically quit and restart the game anytime my
character dies - a little extra work, but it definitely reduces the
number of problems I encounter.
May you quest in interesting dungeons!
--
Nick