Started Divine Divinity...
Andrew Rybenkov
Will the game any different further, or is it a shameless D2 clone?
(Note: I stopped playing D2 after clearing few areas in 2nd chapter - was very boring
- left click (move here), right click (fireball), click, click - that was the all gameplay - meh)
So will there be something more exciting ahead, or is it better to uninstall it right now?
Chuck Michael
news:h3g6ec$7j7$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Keep playing. It's a lot different than D2.
Chuck
Nostromo
-0400, Anno Domini:
Except he didn't even see 0.01% of D2, so how does that help him? Meh.
--
Nostromo
cyg
"Nostromo" <nos...@forme.org> wrote in message
news:49an555gt696gdprn...@4ax.com...
> Except he didn't even see 0.01% of D2, so how does that help him? Meh.
The gameplay doesn't change much between the amazon camp and hell.
Nostromo
Wolfing
to me they are all diablo clones, but then again, I'm not a fan of the
sub-genre so I guess it's like someone telling me that all jRPGs are
Final Fantasy clones
Gabriele Neukam
On this special day, Andrew Rybenkov wrote:
> ...1st time. Playing 1st 'dungeon'. Up to now it feels just like Diablo 2.
>
> Will the game any different further, or is it a shameless D2 clone?
It has a stronger storyline and a quite different (medieval)
atmosphere. Also there is a lot of humorous dialogue, and the whole
landscape is handmade and quite pretty, until you enter the desert
where it becomes monotonous. The endgame is - well, partly bizarre,
partly conventional. And hard, as some of the bosses can do a lot of
damage (Earth Spikes) and/or blink (become invisible).
Gabriele Neukam
--
Often those who most loudly proclaim their freedom to choose in some
fields are the most retentive about 'correcting' others' choices in
other fields.
(Brian Brunner in alt.games.diablo2)
Zerotown
wrote:
<snip>
>
> So will there be something more exciting ahead, or is it better to
> uninstall it right now?
>
Divine Divinity was quite a surprise hit for me. I suggest you keep
playing it. The storyline develops nicely and some (sub)plots will at
times be both unconventional and 'raw', especially when you read between
the lines of dialog and notes you find. Chances are high that, despite the
monster-bashing and l00t, the game will feel very different from D1 & D2
after a while.
Peter Huebner
aryb...@gmail.com says...
Don't uninstall just yet. It starts a bit like a 'Hack' clone, but once
you leave the starter area and get closer to mid-game the storyline
begins to grow, and branch out, I was very pleasantly surprised by this
game once I got rolling ...
-P.
cyg
The gameplay? I agree.
Andrew Rybenkov
So I will continue (though the game takes its time to load/save).
Zerotown
wrote:
> Ok, folks, thanks for your answers!
>
> So I will continue (though the game takes its time to load/save).
>
>
Are you using the latest patch? (version 1.34?)
pdpi
Personally I always found the better part of Diablo 2 to be the
metagame.
Nostromo
Domini:
>
>"Nostromo" <nos...@forme.org> wrote in message
>news:g2ko55h6rsecuq88l...@4ax.com...
>> Thus spake "cyg" <nom...@example.com>, Mon, 13 Jul 2009 19:41:25 -0700,
>> Anno
>> Domini:
>>
>>>
>>>"Nostromo" <nos...@forme.org> wrote in message
>>>news:49an555gt696gdprn...@4ax.com...
>>>> Except he didn't even see 0.01% of D2, so how does that help him? Meh.
>>>
>>>The gameplay doesn't change much between the amazon camp and hell.
>>>
>>>
>> 1/10
>
>The gameplay? I agree.
Go back to lurking - you're much better at it than trolling. And
appreciating a good game beyond your understanding. ;-p
--
Nostromo
Paula
favorite game. So, I don't think they are the same. I wish they would
make a sequel to DD the way it was. I'm not being impressed so far with
what I've seen of the sequel they are making. It might be a good game
but it seems to be completely different from the original DD.
Paula
MetalGuru
>
> I didn't like Diablo 2 at all. Divine Divinity is my second all time
> favorite game.
So, what's the first then?
Wait, lemme try to guess... <concentrates> ... hmm ... LOTRO?
No, hang on... <concentrates harder>... Arcanum? One of the two right?
I'm amazing, I know ;-p
But yea, DD is a great game. And I feel like I'm at the Cloisters in NYC
(I used to live nearby for while) whenever I play it - the graphics are very
much like the paintings in that museum. I really should finish that game
sometime.
Andrew Rybenkov
Yes, still it takes a while to load the program, then again to load a saved game.
It would be OK if saving was fast, but it takes as much time.
(Playing on P4 2GHz 256MB WinME rig)
Paula
favorites, too, and I'm still playing it. And either you're psychic or
very observant with a really good memory. LOL All this talk of DD is
making me want to play it. I haven't in a while. I just don't really
have time for other games since I'm playing LOTRO. I think maybe I need
to cut back on work. He he.
Ross Ridge
>You ARE amazing. Arcanum is my favorite. And LOTRO is one of my
>favorites, too, and I'm still playing it. And either you're psychic or
>very observant with a really good memory.
Or he's handy with Google Groups' search function.
Ross Ridge
--
l/ // Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
[oo][oo] rri...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
-()-/()/ http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~rridge/
db //
cyg
> Go back to lurking - you're much better at it than trolling. And
> appreciating a good game beyond your understanding. ;-p
Because anyone who doesn't think D2 is the greatest game ever must be a
troll. Fanboy much? Maybe play a few more RPGs, maybe without the
point-and-click combat, maybe develop something called taste, or perhaps
just develop a concept of opinion, and contrary ones might not fly over your
head so much.
Matt v3.3
> Paula typed:
>> You ARE amazing. Arcanum is my favorite. And LOTRO is one of my
>> favorites, too, and I'm still playing it. And either you're psychic
>> or very observant with a really good memory.
>
> Or he's handy with Google Groups' search function.
Pfft. I knew that stuff just from eavesdropping on the adventure group.
So what else is new? ;-P
--
};> Matt v3.3 <:{
Zerotown
wrote:
>> Are you using the latest patch? (version 1.34?)
Hmmm.. your system exceeds the minimum specs. To be sure: the 256MB is
your videocard's memory I presume? (else that might be the problem).
You'll probably see better performance using Win XP than ME btw.
Nostromo
0/10 (I was playing rpgs & other genres BEFORE the point & click device
existed, even BEFORE PCs did :-p)
Btw, opinions are like arseholes (note proper _English_ form): everyone
has one, but that doesn't make them all equally useful. :)
Pleased to have you on board cyg! I think what you need is a good sig &
we'll get along just fine. I've dug up one of my old favourites just
especially for you ;).
--
"The measure of (mental) health is flexibility (not comparison to some
'norm'), the freedom to learn from experience...to be influenced by
reasonable arguments...and the appeal to the emotions...and especially
the freedom to cease when sated. The essence of illness is the freezing
of behavior into unalterable and insatiable patterns." - Lawrence Kubie
--
Nostromo
Nostromo
*huge Shrek sigh* I know how you feel Paula. I keep teasing & tormenting
myself by starting new games & all I end up doing is playing 'demos',
with no time to ever finish them or evem get into them properly (well,
except for LOTRO <G>). Ppl keep saying they wish they had more time; I
just wish I had a singularity I could crawl into for a couple
millenniums with all my games I haven't finished (or wanted to
start/play) from the past couple decades & not come out! >8^D
Are you still on Elendilmir & what timezone are you in again? US something?
--
Nostromo
Andrew Rybenkov
> your videocard's memory I presume? (else that might be the problem).
256MB RAM (btw, video memory 256MB too - FX5700)
> You'll probably see better performance using Win XP than ME btw.
That is very very very hardly :))
(XP is a turtle in comparison with 'purged' - no system restore, pc health, etc. - ME)
Actually the game itself runs no prob - but load/save - other story.
Here are raw numbers:
(that desktop) --- (Vista notebook) in seconds
game start: 118 --- 40
load: 73 --- 10
save: 38 --- 5
Still I prefer to play it on the desktop powered by the best CRT in the world ;)))
Warewolf
news:h3mhpf$b0j$1...@news.eternal-september.org:
> Btw, opinions are like arseholes (note proper _English_ form):
> everyone has one, but that doesn't make them all equally useful. :)
I thought it was 'Opinions are like assholes - everybody has one but not
everyone likes to hear them' ^_^'
I guess we'll know the origin of the phrase someday. ^_^
Signed,
Warewolf
who was lucky enough to find a copy of the original Divinity with Beyond
...or was he?
WDS
> Actually the game itself runs no prob - but load/save - other story.
>
> Here are raw numbers:
>
> (that desktop) --- (Vista notebook) in seconds
> game start: 118 --- 40
> load: 73 --- 10
> save: 38 --- 5
A lot of time load/save problems of older games on newer computers are
caused by the various protection systems of the OS (esp. Vista+), AV,
and etc. which are triggered when the games write into places that they
shouldn't. Programs are supposed to write into the user's data
directories ("My Documents" and such) but when they write into other
places (like "My Programs") it looks fishy.
Something you can do that will sometimes avoid this is "go outside the
box" and install into a folder called "games" (or whatever) instead of
"My Programs". Try this and see what happens.
Warewolf
news:h3mjf5$ggf$1...@news.eternal-september.org:
> *huge Shrek sigh* I know how you feel Paula. I keep teasing &
> tormenting myself by starting new games & all I end up doing is
> playing 'demos', with no time to ever finish them or even get into
> them properly (well, except for LOTRO <G>). Ppl keep saying they wish
> they had more time; I just wish I had a singularity I could crawl into
> for a couple millenniums with all my games I haven't finished (or
> wanted to start/play) from the past couple decades & not come out!
> >8^D
At the infinite arcade of the cosmos, can we truly play *all* the games?
I say thee, Nay.
(but it sure is fun trying, eh, doc?) ~_^
*remembers his first play of the TMNT coin-op*
Zerotown
wrote:
>
> 256MB RAM (btw, video memory 256MB too - FX5700)
>
I see... well 256MB seems a little low. Besides suggesting to buy a little
extra RAM (if it's possible to upgrade your desktop), you might want to
play around with your virtual memory settings. Perhaps you've done so
already, but you set the swap-file WinME creates to a fixed size instead
of letting the OS decide wich size is necessary. Make it about 3 to 4
sizes bigger than your normal RAM and if possible, create a seperate
partition just for this file. It used to give me a 'slightly-noticable' to
'significant' performance improvement when playing games on my old
hardware. (There's a little guide here:
http://www.putergeek.com/virtual_memory/ )
>
> Still I prefer to play it on the desktop powered by the best CRT in the
> world ;)))
>
Ooh.. now I'm curious as to what CRT that might be.. I used to have an
EIZO somethingsomething. Very crisp and clear, but very small as well. I
couldn't afford their bigger models.
Mike S.
wrote:
>I thought it was 'Opinions are like assholes - everybody has one but not
>everyone likes to hear them' ^_^'
No its, 'opinions are like assholes, everybody has one and they all
stink.'
Cam Moore
Mike S. <mi...@nowhere.com> wrote in
news:scou55ll3oq9u5p9p...@4ax.com:
Paula
Yes, I'm still on Elendilmir. I'm in the central time zone.
MetalGuru
> Ross Ridge typed:
>> Paula typed:
>>> You ARE amazing. Arcanum is my favorite. And LOTRO is one
>>> of my favorites, too, and I'm still playing it. And either you're
>>> psychic or very observant with a really good memory.
>>
>> Or he's handy with Google Groups' search function.
>
> Pfft. I knew that stuff just from eavesdropping on the adventure group.
No you didn't. You're just jealous because Paula said I was amazing.
Here, have a cookie.
Om nom nom nom nom...
Nostromo
Anno Domini:
ROFLMA(hole)O!!! >8^D
That's why it's such as great saying - you can take poetic license in so
many ways & they're all as good as each other! ;)
--
Nostromo
Nostromo
Domini:
>> Are you still on Elendilmir & what timezone are you in again? US something?
>>
>
>Yes, I'm still on Elendilmir. I'm in the central time zone.
Cool. I think I may have added your cute little hobbitses to my flist long
ago (you were my very first foray into The Shire ;), but you may not be
playing her any longer...? If not, let me know your main's name & if we run
into each other, so be it! My new 'main' is a 15th hobbit burger
chickee-babe called 'Silka'. Hope to bump into ya soon, even though I am in
GMT+10!
--
Nostromo
Paula
I've never played a hobbit so that must have been someone else. My main
character is Johannwen and is a human hunter. I also have one named
Katreyna, also a hunter. I just like playing hunters. I created her
because my mom and aunt started playing the game and Jo was way too high
really to play with them so I have Kat to play with them when they play,
which they play more often than not anymore so I spend quite a bit of
time on her now even though I still consider Jo my main. Lots of info
you didn't ask for, huh? LOL I'll keep an eye out for Silka. :-)
Andrew Rybenkov
> extra RAM (if it's possible to upgrade your desktop), you might want to
> play around with your virtual memory settings. Perhaps you've done so
> already, but you set the swap-file WinME creates to a fixed size instead
> of letting the OS decide wich size is necessary. Make it about 3 to 4
> sizes bigger than your normal RAM and if possible
Thanx, I aware of all the gimmicks but the PC works ok with all other (more significant to me) programs
so I am no gonna tweak it in any way at all.
Btw, if you cannot reserve separate HDD for swap file (with its own dedicated IDE channel), messing around with it will not
do you any good. Fixing its size is really bad idea.
> Ooh.. now I'm curious as to what CRT that might be.. I used to have an
> EIZO somethingsomething. Very crisp and clear, but very small as well. I
> couldn't afford their bigger models.
Mitsubishi 930SB
Geometry - perfect
Convergence - perfect
Moire - "what is it?"
Colors and focus - man, it's a DiamondTron!
:)))))))))))
Nostromo
Domini:
>Nostromo wrote:
>> Thus spake Paula <pd...@yahoo.com>, Thu, 16 Jul 2009 13:37:14 -0500, Anno
>> Domini:
>>
>>>> Are you still on Elendilmir & what timezone are you in again? US something?
>>>>
>>> Yes, I'm still on Elendilmir. I'm in the central time zone.
>>
>> Cool. I think I may have added your cute little hobbitses to my flist long
>> ago (you were my very first foray into The Shire ;), but you may not be
>> playing her any longer...? If not, let me know your main's name & if we run
>> into each other, so be it! My new 'main' is a 15th hobbit burger
>> chickee-babe called 'Silka'. Hope to bump into ya soon, even though I am in
>> GMT+10!
>>
>
>I've never played a hobbit so that must have been someone else. My main
>character is Johannwen and is a human hunter. I also have one named
I have Johannwen in my flist - thought is was CB's alt as his main is
closely named (Jocewyn from memory). Daymn, wonder who it was, but it was
definitely one of our reg ladies from here when we first started the
sissypig kinship. Oh well, what's in a name? ;)
>Katreyna, also a hunter. I just like playing hunters. I created her
>because my mom and aunt started playing the game and Jo was way too high
>really to play with them so I have Kat to play with them when they play,
>which they play more often than not anymore so I spend quite a bit of
>time on her now even though I still consider Jo my main. Lots of info
>you didn't ask for, huh? LOL I'll keep an eye out for Silka. :-)
He, he, you can never have too much info! ;) My wife only plays
huntress-types too (can you guess the D2 class? ;). She gets a bit
overwhelmed with the story/lore/loot/crafting/etc in LOTRO, so I'm thinking
about getting her to try CoH seeings there's a 14 day trial. As long as
she's having fun & it isn't a 2nd job for me, it's all good! :)
(Btw, playing with your mum AND aunt??? Either you're a masochist, one of
the original Joy Luck Club founders, OR, what's the name of your coven? ;-p
*duck* :)
--
Nostromo
Magnate
> "Nostromo" <nos...@forme.org> wrote in message
>> Go back to lurking - you're much better at it than trolling. And
>> appreciating a good game beyond your understanding. ;-p
>
> Because anyone who doesn't think D2 is the greatest game ever must be a
> troll. Fanboy much? Maybe play a few more RPGs, maybe without the
> point-and-click combat, maybe develop something called taste, or perhaps
> just develop a concept of opinion, and contrary ones might not fly over
> your head so much.
Er, maybe try not thinking of D2 as an RPG? It's a roguelike - it has about
as much role-playing in it as pac-man.
CC
Nostromo
Anno Domini:
I already replied to this nub in .rpg. But pacman Mag??? Did pacman have
quests, stats/skills , phat l00t & juicy item farming that I missed
somehow??? 8-player pacman with persistent chars...hmmm...might work ;-p.
--
Nostromo
Warewolf
news:ehnoj6-...@news.terminalarrogance.com:
> Er, maybe try not thinking of D2 as an RPG? It's a roguelike - it has
> about as much role-playing in it as pac-man.
I'm sure that many players of the text-based ones would disagree. ^_^
If role-playing is 'let's pretend with rules' then I'd say that games like
Nethack, ADOM and even the Wizardry and Might and Magic series are RPG-Lite
at worst. ^_^
(They certainly have exploration and combat 'figured out')
Then again, we all have different ideas of what makes an enjoyable RPG so
I'll leave D2(and 3)'s position in the genre open to interpretation. ^_^;
Signed,
Warewolf
whose 'dream RPG' would consist of the following
- the storytelling prowess of Batman:TAS, Spawn and Avatar
- the combat options of Double Dragon, Combatribes and Battle Circuit
- the item (combination) systems of Evil Islands and many Lucasarts games
- a world/universe as large and versatile as the human imagination
- a construction set/scenario generator if not some handy modification
tools
(Then again, I'm sure that an RPG of this nature has already been
attempted/made available) ^_^
*considers giving Planescape another 'spin'*
Magnate
> "Magnate" <n...@receiving.here> wrote in
>
>> Er, maybe try not thinking of D2 as an RPG? It's a roguelike - it has
>> about as much role-playing in it as pac-man.
>
> I'm sure that many players of the text-based ones would disagree. ^_^
>
> If role-playing is 'let's pretend with rules' then I'd say that games like
> Nethack, ADOM and even the Wizardry and Might and Magic series are
> RPG-Lite
> at worst. ^_^
>
> (They certainly have exploration and combat 'figured out')
>
> Then again, we all have different ideas of what makes an enjoyable RPG so
> I'll leave D2(and 3)'s position in the genre open to interpretation. ^_^;
Don't get me wrong, D2 is one of the best games I've ever played. I just
don't think of it (or any roguelike) as an RPG. They're tactical games, with
a small amount of strategy (long-term build plans) and a lot of interesting
tactical decisions. Just like pac-man (strategic use of the power pills, but
otherwise it's all tactical).
IIUC, you and Nos both seem to think that stats and equipment and a rules
framework make something an RPG. I don't think like that at all. When I
think of RPGs I think of games with tons of story and dialogue: PS:T, BG,
NWN, KoToR, The Witcher maybe (haven't played it, but that's based on what
I've heard), VTM:B (ditto). You don't interact with anyone in a roguelike
except to kill them (with the trivial exceptions of shopkeepers etc.) - you
don't have any allies or romance or all that kind of plot-based stuff. Yes,
there is a tiny amount of dialogue in D2, but it's just window dressing
really.
So for me the RPG-ness is about the plot and dialogue, and nothing at all to
do with the rules framework. That's why I don't really consider Morrowind an
RPG, because it has so little plot. It's basically just Myst with a D&D-type
ruleset.
It's also why Dungeon Siege didn't really qualify as an RPG for me - it was
an extended roguelike: lots of toys, totally linear plot and all the
dialogue & interaction was pretty much window dressing like in D2.
Just my 2p. YMMV and all that. I just thought you'd want to know that the
Pac-man reference fits with my view of RPGs, and was not a total curveball.
CC
Mike S.
wrote:
>IIUC, you and Nos both seem to think that stats and equipment and a rules
>framework make something an RPG.
Stats and equipment and rules are the only thing I can think of that
actually encompasses every CRPG ever made. From Ultima 0 down on
right through the latest MMO. Even story heavy games like Ultima 7,
Betrayal at Krondor and Planescape Torment fall under that definition.
Take the stats, equipment and rules away and I think you will be left
with a graphic adventure. King's Quest is not a CRPG.
>So for me the RPG-ness is about the plot and dialogue, and nothing at all to
>do with the rules framework. That's why I don't really consider Morrowind an
>RPG, because it has so little plot. It's basically just Myst with a D&D-type
>ruleset.
Ok look. I don't like Morrowind. Or any Elder Scrolls RPG for that
matter. But comparing Morrowind to a logic puzzle based graphic
adventure like Myst is a bit of a stretch. There is a long list of
RPGs with little plot Magnate. I am not about to start calling the
Bard's Tale a Myst clone. :)
WDS
> Don't get me wrong, D2 is one of the best games I've ever played. I just
> don't think of it (or any roguelike) as an RPG. They're tactical games,
> with a small amount of strategy (long-term build plans) and a lot of
> interesting tactical decisions.
That is the origin of RPGs both paper (like original D&D) and computer
(like Wizardry).
Magnate
> On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 13:03:02 +0100, "Magnate" <n...@receiving.here> wrote:
>
>>IIUC, you and Nos both seem to think that stats and equipment and a rules
>>framework make something an RPG.
>
> Stats and equipment and rules are the only thing I can think of that
> actually encompasses every CRPG ever made. From Ultima 0 down on
> right through the latest MMO. Even story heavy games like Ultima 7,
> Betrayal at Krondor and Planescape Torment fall under that definition.
> Take the stats, equipment and rules away and I think you will be left
> with a graphic adventure. King's Quest is not a CRPG.
I guess so. As WDS said, that's the origin of RPGs: a rules framework which
gives life to your alter ego. It's just that when I think back to playing
D&D, there was a whole lot of dialogue. Sure, there was also lots of
obsessing over stat tables and critical hits and wotnot, but most of the
session was spent talking in character, to each other and to NPCs.
So when I think about my experiences of playing games on PCs, it's the games
which recreate some of that dialogue-heavy feel which *feel* like RPGs, and
the roguelikes don't. But I guess I cannot actually claim that they don't
fit the most obvious definition of CRPGs.
>>So for me the RPG-ness is about the plot and dialogue, and nothing at all
>>to
>>do with the rules framework. That's why I don't really consider Morrowind
>>an
>>RPG, because it has so little plot. It's basically just Myst with a
>>D&D-type
>>ruleset.
>
> Ok look. I don't like Morrowind. Or any Elder Scrolls RPG for that
> matter. But comparing Morrowind to a logic puzzle based graphic
> adventure like Myst is a bit of a stretch. There is a long list of
> RPGs with little plot Magnate. I am not about to start calling the
> Bard's Tale a Myst clone. :)
Fair enough. I guess Morrowind is closer to the Bard's Tale than I realised.
I gave up on it after about fifteen minutes, so I'm not really qualified to
comment.
Hopefully you can see what I mean though: CRPGs range from the "graphic
adventure with stats framework" at one end to the "dialogue-free tactical
slaughterfest" at the other. It's a broad church, and to me it's a misnomer
for the Diablo-likes, as I'm not really playing any kind of role there, I'm
playing a fantasy-based kill-everything game with a more detailed stats
framework than Quake. Ah well. Maybe Pac-Man was a bit of a stretch.
CC
Rick Cortese
> On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 13:03:02 +0100, "Magnate" <n...@receiving.here>
> wrote:
>
>> IIUC, you and Nos both seem to think that stats and equipment and a rules
>> framework make something an RPG.
>
> Stats and equipment and rules are the only thing I can think of that
> actually encompasses every CRPG ever made. From Ultima 0 down on
> right through the latest MMO. Even story heavy games like Ultima 7,
> Betrayal at Krondor and Planescape Torment fall under that definition.
> Take the stats, equipment and rules away and I think you will be left
> with a graphic adventure. King's Quest is not a CRPG.
Long while back when this discussion was taking place someone did a
rather good "Pong as an RPG" post. I can't remember the details but it
tone of it was something like: "You grew up in a planer dimension as a
little rectangle. Now that you have grown into a large rectangle you
have joined the army. There is a war and you are being attacked by balls
of plasma being fired at you. Your only defense is to repel them back at
your attacker..." It was done quite well, better then my recollections
anyway.
>
>> So for me the RPG-ness is about the plot and dialogue, and nothing at all to
>> do with the rules framework. That's why I don't really consider Morrowind an
>> RPG, because it has so little plot. It's basically just Myst with a D&D-type
>> ruleset.
>
> Ok look. I don't like Morrowind. Or any Elder Scrolls RPG for that
> matter. But comparing Morrowind to a logic puzzle based graphic
> adventure like Myst is a bit of a stretch. There is a long list of
> RPGs with little plot Magnate. I am not about to start calling the
> Bard's Tale a Myst clone. :)
My threshold has been lowered just a bit. Specifically character STAT
and LEVEL development was what originally drew me to RPGs and CRPGs.
Thinking back to some classic Action CRPGs like Dungeon Master or Eye of
the Beholder I think I would still enjoy them if the game was set up
with neither stat nor level. Just the discovery of new spells,
strategies, and items as you go further into the game would probably be
enough. I'm not quite to the level where I consider Doom an CRPG but may
eventually get there.
Rick
Mike S.
wrote:
>Fair enough. I guess Morrowind is closer to the Bard's Tale than I realised.
>I gave up on it after about fifteen minutes, so I'm not really qualified to
>comment.
I wasn't trying to say Morrowind was anything like the Bard's Tale.
Sorry for the confusion. My point is that there is a long list of RPGs
with little to no storyline and one of them is the Bard's Tale. No one
ever called that game anything but a CRPG. Morrowind is just a modern
example. As are many MMOs.
>Hopefully you can see what I mean though: CRPGs range from the "graphic
>adventure with stats framework" at one end to the "dialogue-free tactical
>slaughterfest" at the other.
Yes their range is great. I think that is a good thing. But they are
all CRPGs to me. From dungeon crawlers like the Bard's Tale and Eye of
the Beholder. To story heavy games like Ultima 7 and Planescape
Torment. To action heavy games like Diablo and Dungeon Siege. I just
never saw a need to sub class them further. Maybe that's just because
I like them all. :)
> It's a broad church, and to me it's a misnomer
>for the Diablo-likes, as I'm not really playing any kind of role there,
I wouldn't get too hung up on misnomers in the genre names themselves.
Real time strategy games are not actually played in real time, nor do
they have much to do about strategy. They are more like incredibly
accelerated tactical war games.
Mike S.
<rico...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>My threshold has been lowered just a bit.
Heh. I think that is true for all of us. If you can't do that, you
probably would have given up and looked for a new hobby by now. :)
>Specifically character STAT
>and LEVEL development was what originally drew me to RPGs and CRPGs.
>Thinking back to some classic Action CRPGs like Dungeon Master or Eye of
>the Beholder I think I would still enjoy them if the game was set up
>with neither stat nor level. Just the discovery of new spells,
>strategies, and items as you go further into the game would probably be
>enough.
I think it would be for me to.
> I'm not quite to the level where I consider Doom an CRPG but may
>eventually get there.
I hope I never do. :)
Warewolf
news:0lh0k6-...@news.terminalarrogance.com:
> Don't get me wrong, D2 is one of the best games I've ever played. I
> just don't think of it (or any roguelike) as an RPG. They're tactical
> games, with a small amount of strategy (long-term build plans) and a
> lot of interesting tactical decisions. Just like pac-man.
Or an 'old-school' Zelda title? ~_^
At the risk of going off-topic, I actually enjoyed the GameBoy game,
Link's Awakening, because it had many of the trappings of a good RPG (a
large interactive world, an 'avatar' that improves over time; a map and
inventory screen instantly available) and, yet, isn't considered a
traditional RPG.
Still, it's fun and I think that it can considered a stunning example of
how the next RPG *could* be built (if one wanted to give 'old-school'
another try). ^_^
> IIUC, you and Nos both seem to think that stats and equipment and a
> rules framework make something an RPG.
Well, rule(set)s and a usable 'engine' are 'building blocks' for one,
certainly, but I (tend to) see things differently as well.
To me, they're more than a peek into the design and programming teams'
collective imagination - they're a whole new world to explore and
interact with and, in some cases, alter as one sees fit. They are a
distraction from the troubles of the real world and, in their own way,
can be almost theraputic.
I've seen so many 'close calls' in the computer RPG world that I'm a
little surprised that more are still being made today. Then again,
considering the versatility of the 'engines' available (read: it's
possible to make another River City Ransom or a Sonic RPG) and the
quality of some fan-made products, I can understand their appeal. ^_^
> You don't interact with anyone in a roguelike except to kill them (with
> the trivial exceptions of shopkeepers etc.) - you don't have any allies
> or romance or all that kind of plot-based stuff. Yes, there is a tiny
> amount of dialogue in D2, but it's just window dressing really.
Still, if the dialogue and interactions are written/scripted well enough,
it can be as effective in immersing a player as blood stains on a dungeon
wall or a beautifully composed piece of background music.
*remembers the 'Catacombs' soundtrack in Diablo*
> So for me the RPG-ness is about the plot and dialogue, and nothing at
> all to do with the rules framework. That's why I don't really consider
> Morrowind an RPG, because it has so little plot. It's basically just
> Myst with a D&D-type ruleset.
Morrowind had a *lot* of 'warts' to look at (flat NPCs, mediocre combat
engine, unbalanced 'dice rolls') but, for all its faults, it did a few
things absolutely right. It presented a large island with its own
weather system and a wide variety of locations to explore plus the
construction set allowed players to add even more locations, items and
other stuff to the base game.
I'm not saying that the next crop of RPGs should be 'bare bones' but the
tools for adding 'experimental extras' (ie fishing, cooking, better NPC
AI, the models for other vehicles besides horses) could be 'hidden' in
the Construction Set if they require tweaking later on (either by the
programming team or certain hobbyists).
> It's also why Dungeon Siege didn't really qualify as an RPG for me -
> it was an extended roguelike: lots of toys, totally linear plot and
> all the dialogue & interaction was pretty much window dressing like in
> D2.
I actually liked the 'line-of-sight' feature for combat and the fact that
skills improved with use. What I didn't like (aside from the item drop
method of searching an area and how the game handled staves and unarmed
combat) was the fact that the reward system for defeating monsters was
based on the amount of time spent per session.
(In other words, forget about getting tons of 'phat lewt' if you restored
your game just before the goblin 'robo-suit' fight) 9_9
> Just my 2p. YMMV and all that. I just thought you'd want to know that
> the Pac-man reference fits with my view of RPGs, and was not a total
> curveball.
Well, RPG styles *have* evolved over the decades. What was once a simple
'dungeon crawl' has become an excellent tool for storytelling.
I still think that there are some features that would prove useful in the
next commercial/fan-made title but I'll save the listing for later.
What I will say, though, is that there is a reason I prefer arcade games
like Combatribes and Battle Circuit over Atari's Neverwinter Nights.
(*grumblegrumble*StagBeetle*grumble*)
Signed,
Warewolf
who wonders if titles like Disgaea and Jagged Alliance are worthy of
'study'