ARCANUM - delayed
Frank G
thanx to the frogs (sierra is a french owned company now, isn´t it ?)...and
no, mr. adam kahn, i *don´t want* to understand your situation at sierra. to
be exactly, i don´t care at all.
fr@nk
here´s the ugly part :
[...]
Hello everyone at the Arcanum Inn! My name is Adam Kahn and I've been
handling the public relations efforts for Arcanum here at Sierra for the
last year or so. Many of the regular posters here know me, but for those who
don't, I've been following the community on the board with some interest
since I started on the project.
This is why I wanted to come here and personally let you all know about the
fact that Arcanum's date of release has changed from May until September.
It's important to me that you know that this decision was made here at
Sierra, and has nothing to do with the progress Arcanum has made. The game
will be done on time, and were it not for our business need to ship the game
worldwide on the same date, we would be able to share the final product with
those of you in the U.S. within a month or so.
[...]
I hope you can all understand the situation we're in here at Sierra, and I
do want you to know that the Arcanum community is extremely important to us.
We all appreciate your dedication to the game, and hope that you will keep
with us until September when I know you'll finally see that the wait was
worth it.
[...]
Here's the official statement:
Yesterday morning the Arcanum team here at Sierra made a decision to delay
the release of the game in the US until early September. The decision had
nothing to do with the progress Arcanum has made - it will be complete
within the next few weeks and we couldn't be happier with the final product.
However, the need to ship Arcanum simultaneously across all worldwide
territories necessitated the delay here in the US. Worldwide launches are
important to the overall success of a title, and a game as in-depth,
detailed and comprehensive as Arcanum will take more time to localize than
some of our previous titles.
The need for us to ship a game at the same time worldwide is based on
several factors, but the primary reason is the growing proliferation of the
international gray market. When a game ships in the US first (rather than
simultaneously across the world), foreign retailers will often buy the
non-localized, US versions of our games (instead of waiting for the
international versions) and sell them to their international customers. At
first glance, this doesn't seem like a big deal, since it's not truly
"piracy" of our products - those customers do, in fact, pay for our game.
However, because most of these retailers then refuse to carry the localized
versions we prepare, this practice prevents us from localizing our games for
specific countries and regions.
So, for a game like Arcanum, which relies heavily on dialogue (with its
accompanying subtexts and references), this situation means that someone
playing in France, for example, might miss a significant portion of the game
's charm, wit and detail. In addition, they will have to deal with a manual
written in English, no information about technical support in his or her
home country, etc.
While this means that Arcanum fans here in the US, who have waited so
patiently already, will have to endure another, final wait until September,
we're confident that they will all find the time worth it.
[...]
The Arcanum demo will still be available in early May on the covermount disc
for Computer Gaming World (as well as several international magazines). We
will also offer the demo for download, though it's size (about 250MB) could
be prohibitive for many of you.
James Garvin
Frank G wrote:
> arcanum is delayed again. we have to wait until september !!!
Well. It think it is better to release a game world wide. I have to
agree with the decision (although being in the US I REALLY don't like
it). It only makes sense and you can give better support that way....(I
know that is a broad statement....)
I wish it would come out in May...but I'm betting on a July release date
(probably gonna choke those translations down)
(why can't everyone just use bablefish?)
--
James Garvin
bo...@nmt.edu
Peacedog1
>Well. It think it is better to release a game world wide. I have to
>agree with the decision (although being in the US I REALLY don't like
>it). It only makes sense and you can give better support that way....(I
>know that is a broad statement....)
Of course, it makes more sense to think about this a few months ago, and not
right now. Or I'm crazy.
>I wish it would come out in May...but I'm betting on a July release date
>(probably gonna choke those translations down)
Read the press release. Delayed until September. I doubt July would piss
people off. . .
portia_EH
developed? I think it was something like...
"A late game is late until the day it ships, a bad game is bad forever!"
I'm glad we're not getting Arcanum until it's complete -- good for Troika!
--
=================================================
"When virtue sleeps, [x] awakes refreshed!" -FN
-EH (remove "no2spam~" for reply address)
Frank G <FGo...@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:9bqbi2$frd$03$1...@news.t-online.com...
Frank G
portia_EH <no2spam~ehou...@zipperint.com> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:
3ae0c...@news.nwlink.com...
> I'm glad we're not getting Arcanum until it's complete -- good for Troika!
what the hell...didn´t you read their statement at all ? it´s *not* delayed
because it will not be completed until may. read it again :
[...]
it will be complete within the next few weeks and we couldn't be happier
with the final product. However, the need to ship Arcanum simultaneously
across all worldwide territories necessitated the delay here in the US
[...]
fr@nk
Peacedog1
>"A late game is late until the day it ships, a bad game is bad forever!"
>
>I'm glad we're not getting Arcanum until it's complete -- good for Troika!
Go read the press release.
portia_EH
> what the hell...didn´t you read their statement at all ? it´s *not*
delayed
> because it will not be completed until may. read it again :
>
The article I read was a beautifully orchestrated press release by the PR
guys that represent Arcanum's publisher (Sierra). They basically said, 'Oh
yeah, it's done and it's great -- we really want to continue paying the
legion of game developers their milestone checks because it would be unfair
to foriegn countries not to experience the game as it was intended.'
I don't buy that.
It sounds a little too like John Romero telling Eidos that 'everthing is
going as scheduled' while the company falls apart trying to paint their
little hooker so that nobody sees the bruises underneath the makeup.
Although I do digress... **Maybe Sierra honestly beleives that if they sit
on a game for five months that (and I quote) "will be complete within the
next few weeks" just to give it a globally timed release that they'll have a
signifigant increase in revenue vs. the paychecks they'll be issuing for the
biggest financial bite of all: "Salary"
Risky.
I'd much rather them issue the statement that I quoted from the Blizzard
devleopment house. The one about a game being bad forever, vs. a game being
late until that day. Wait a minute, that makes it sound like I was making a
brilliant statement about why Sierra really won't publish Troika's game on
it's intended GOLD deadline. ... ... **nah, I wouldn't be doing that.
** = sarcasm
Joe Fernandez
release in it's home country to release worldwide. As a console gamer as
well, I know that a Japanese publisher would NEVER EVER delay a game's
release in Japan to release it simultaneously in the US or anywhere else.
Something is up, either they want to build up the hype or the game really
isn't anywhere near done.
Miles Lippincott
Frank G wrote in message <9bqbi2$frd$03$1...@news.t-online.com>...
>arcanum is delayed again. we have to wait until september !!!
>
What bunch of BS! I'm sure European gamers won't mind, but give me a break.
The game is already six months late and now, just a few weeks before it's
supposed to be out, they decide it needs to be delayed for worldwide
release? So, basically the game will be a YEAR late and this is a game that
is marginal graphically right now. By September we'll be a hell of a lot
closer to Morrowind, Neverwinter, and lot of GeForce 3 designed games. By
delaying it another several months they seriously risk losing sales and
interest. This is an unprecedented move, at least for the US market.
I never viewed Arcanum as a premier title because I seriously doubt it will
even approach BG/BG2 in sales. The fact that they are treating it as the
next Diablo 2 tells me there is something going on that they don't want to
admit.
Miles
I
TwinIon
Actually I'm not so sure. A world wide simultaneous release means we have no
American guinea pigs to test out the game and scream bloody murder and scare
away the rest of the customer....:P
In article <3ae0c...@news.nwlink.com>, "portia_EH"
Miles Lippincott
Sorry to follow up my own post, but a few other things I want to add.
There is no doubt at all that this was a last minute decsion, which is
unfair to fans to say the least. Look at all the marketing effort that has
been made recently: adds in magazines, press demos sent out to hype up the
game in anticipation of release, promo items sent to retailers as incentives
to reserve in advance (Babbages has cloth maps already, as well as oversize
boxes.) It makes no sense at all.
As I said earlier (and I've seen this echoed elsewhere) they are making a
serious mistake here for a BS reason. I have no doubt that Arcanum will be
a commercial failure as a result and I feel bad for Troika that they are
stuck with these decisions.
Miles
LHeilb8013
Independence War not wait for US publishers before they were released in their
own countries........I might not bother to buy the damn thing at all, why
support a company who obviously does not care about the customers??
Lloyd Heilbrunn
TwinIon
because the only country that speaks Japanese is, well Japan while a great
many countries has English has their official language OR has a vast
population that speaks/understand English. This means that gray market dealers
could not sell a Japanese release as lucratively as they would a English
release.
In article <H%6E6.3134$nm1.3...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Joe
Grifman
wrote:
>
>Frank G wrote:
>
>> arcanum is delayed again. we have to wait until september !!!
>
>Well. It think it is better to release a game world wide. I have to
>agree with the decision (although being in the US I REALLY don't like
>it). It only makes sense and you can give better support that way....(I
>know that is a broad statement....)
>
>I wish it would come out in May...but I'm betting on a July release date
>(probably gonna choke those translations down)
>
This really doesn't make sense. Are there any other Sierra games that
have been delayed as such? Or any games by any other publisher
delayed as such? Sure being an RPG there is a lot of text that needs
to be translated but still . . . surely they knew this fact of
translation months ago when the May date was announced - so why didn't
they realize May was out then. Something seems fishy here to me.
Grifman
Hong Ooi
IIRC Warlords Battlecry didn't get to Oz until a few weeks after its
release in the US. Fallout Tactics too, considering it was developed in
Canberra.
--
Hong Ooi | "I used to use my real name many years ago. I
hong...@maths.anu.edu.au | got just as much disrespect then as I do now."
http://www.zip.com.au/~hong | -- T.
Sydney, Australia |
Led Mirage
wrote:
>Well. It think it is better to release a game world wide. I have to
>agree with the decision (although being in the US I REALLY don't like
>it). It only makes sense and you can give better support that way....(I
>know that is a broad statement....)
Bah. It's all bullshit. It's simply publishers and distributors
looking out for their money. This is why there are regional codes for
DVDs. Damn if you don't want the localized version. What if I'm an
native English speaker who lives in France and is more comfortable
with English? You're shit out of luck if you want to buy it off
retailers. In the end it's either you get the localized version (may
be censored) or go to the grey market (get it off web stores or
autions). It's never about "support". Publishers are the one that
makes the most money out of releases, not the developers or retailers.
>(why can't everyone just use bablefish?)
Ummmm.....you don't know languages other than English, right?
Ezzrie
saying that there was still development to do would be more fan friendly
as most fans are content to wait as programming goes on, but to wait just
because Sierra feels like making us wait is ludicrous, and I wont be
buying Arcanum at this point. I'll warez it.
no2spam~ehou...@zipperint.com (portia_EH) wrote in
<3ae0d799$1...@news.nwlink.com>:
>F
Danny Jansen
> accompanying subtexts and references), this situation means that someone
> playing in France, for example, might miss a significant portion of the
game
> 's charm, wit and detail. In addition, they will have to deal with a
manual
> written in English, no information about technical support in his or her
> home country, etc.
I don't understand this. Most people in Europe don't like localised versions
at all because the voices are most often done poorly at best, the
translations from English to French, German, Dutch etc. of the manual, in
game texts are just terrible etc. So how can you delay an often delayed
product even more just to make localised versions of it, which most people
won't buy because they still want the US/ English version?
When they finally release it, I hope for them I have time to BUY and PLAY it
because other great games (BG2 expansion, DiabloII expansion, Neverwinter
Nights) will be released in the meantime and judging from the screenshots
Arcanum now already looks dated...
--
Danny Jansen
'All of this might just be an elaborate simulation running inside a little
device, sitting on someone's table'
hoy.Don...@hawaii.edu
: On Sat, 21 Apr 2001 03:20:07 GMT, "Joe Fernandez"
: <fer...@earthlink.net> wrote:
:>This is ludicrous! I've never heard a publisher (significantly) delay a
:>release in it's home country to release worldwide. As a console gamer as
:>well, I know that a Japanese publisher would NEVER EVER delay a game's
:>release in Japan to release it simultaneously in the US or anywhere else.
:>Something is up, either they want to build up the hype or the game really
:>isn't anywhere near done.
:>
: IIRC Warlords Battlecry didn't get to Oz until a few weeks after its
: release in the US. Fallout Tactics too, considering it was developed in
: Canberra.
Add to that Blade of Darkness. The Spanish version was delayed four
months for Codemasters to localize everything for a coordinated
world-wide release. IIRC, Codemasters wasn't even the publisher in
Spain and Latin America. Note that the amount of text and speech in
BOD is paltry compared to that in Arcanum.
--
hoy xatx hawaii xdotx education
Trash
the arcanum inn.
They say the game is finished, and that they were shocked as well.
However from a marketing point of view it seems to be a valid idea.
To me as a customer it sucks, I'm european and if I wanted to play this game
really badly I could've ordered it through the internet or bought it in one
of the many import gameshops around here.
I still hope the game will be great and I'm sure I'll buy it but right now
all I feel is...
Fuck you sierra!
chainbreaker
> isn't anywhere near done.
>
>
I can never forget that this is the same company that released Outpost (and
Phantasmagoria). Yeah, yeah, I know management isn't quite the same. I'll
grant 'em Half-life, but what's that--one out of how many? And I'm not
talking about "decent" games, I'm talking about games that deserved their
pre-release hype and weren't buggy and/or emasculated as hell.
Jerry Morelock
Mr. Teatime
> Hello everyone at the Arcanum Inn! My name is Adam Kahn and I've been
> handling the public relations efforts for Arcanum here at Sierra for the
> last year or so. Many of the regular posters here know me, but for those
who
> don't, I've been following the community on the board with some interest
> since I started on the project.
> This is why I wanted to come here and personally let you all know about
the
> fact that Arcanum's date of release has changed from May until September.
> It's important to me that you know that this decision was made here at
> Sierra, and has nothing to do with the progress Arcanum has made. The game
> will be done on time, and were it not for our business need to ship the
game
> worldwide on the same date, we would be able to share the final product
with
> those of you in the U.S. within a month or so.
ah fuck off you slimy PR fuckwit. either be straight with us or stop
spouting bs
jon
Acid Queen
says...
Is QA a possibility? I haven't been following this particular game, but
what video card was it designed to use - did it have to switch cards in
the middle of development?
As far as marketing goes, you're right - it makes no sense at all. If
there were issues with it, it would've been smarter to say so. People
will wait for problems to be fixed - they won't hold still for this
nonsense. Besides, European companies release games there first -
Rowan's Battle of Britain, 1602, Longest Journey, Silver etc spring
immediately to mind.
AQ
Devo
>Sierra has no reason to lie about the game being unfinished. In fact
>saying that there was still development to do would be more fan friendly
>as most fans are content to wait as programming goes on, but to wait just
>because Sierra feels like making us wait is ludicrous, and I wont be
>buying Arcanum at this point. I'll warez it.
>
Ditto.
--------------
Devo
Devo
<fer...@earthlink.net> wrote:
Why would they lie about the game not being done? It would be better
if they delayed it because it wasn't finished than this world-wide
release bullshit. Yeah I smell bullshit alright.
--------------
Devo
Devo
Haha. You sound suprised! Let me tell you something, no game
publisher cares about it's customers! It is the way of the corporate
world, it's all money we all know that. We and the game developers
must take it up the ass.
--------------
Devo
Gerry Quinn
>Sierra has no reason to lie about the game being unfinished. In fact
>saying that there was still development to do would be more fan friendly
>as most fans are content to wait as programming goes on, but to wait just
>because Sierra feels like making us wait is ludicrous, and I wont be
>buying Arcanum at this point. I'll warez it.
>
They have every right to choose the date on which they release their
game.
Do you steal from shops if they don't open early to suit you?
- Gerry Quinn
Qenan
>arcanum is delayed again. we have to wait until september !!!
>
...<snip>...
>Here's the official statement:
>Yesterday morning the Arcanum team here at Sierra made a decision to delay
>the release of the game in the US until early September. The decision had
>nothing to do with the progress Arcanum has made - it will be complete
>within the next few weeks and we couldn't be happier with the final product.
>However, the need to ship Arcanum simultaneously across all worldwide
>territories necessitated the delay here in the US. Worldwide launches are
>important to the overall success of a title, and a game as in-depth,
>detailed and comprehensive as Arcanum will take more time to localize than
>some of our previous titles.
No problem. But if I can wait until September to buy it, I can wait a
year and buy it off the bargain shelf.
Now would be a good time to release, because there isn't much out. By
next September, there will likely be more competition, and Arcanum may
languish. It wasn't at the top of my list or anything... But, their
call. I can certainly live without it.
Mr. Teatime
> what video card was it designed to use - did it have to switch cards in
> the middle of development?
maybe it was very buggy and Sierra have seen what a bad response really
buggy games get in terms of returns. For example, the fallout series, while
'finished' when released took a good few months afterwards to fix each game
with patches.
jon
Acid Queen
says...
That's definitely the way I feel about it. Having thought about this,
the only conclusion I can come to is - the French company that owns
Sierra has intervened. Only the French are stupid enough to jeopardize
their earnings in order to put it out in France first.
Not to mention not being able to get shelf space in American stores when
there will be an abundance of tried and tested games vying for it...
AQ
Gandelon
> Assuming what they say is true, the same thing could not have happen in
Japan
> because the only country that speaks Japanese is, well Japan while a great
> many countries has English has their official language OR has a vast
> population that speaks/understand English. This means that gray market
dealers
> could not sell a Japanese release as lucratively as they would a English
> release.
A VERY interesting point you have there. You're implying that Sierra is
going for a world-wide release so that pirated copies aren't available
outside the U.S. before the legal game is. Since I'm rather doubtful that a
company is going to admit to it's U.S. customers that they have to wait to
keep piracy rates down outside the U.S, this does make a certain amount of
sense.
OTOH, software has a tendency to be "99% complete" for the last half of its
development cycle, so I would take any assertion that the software is almost
ready with a grain of salt, too.
Acid Queen
says...
> arcanum is delayed again. we have to wait until september !!!
> The need for us to ship a game at the same time worldwide is based on
> several factors, but the primary reason is the growing proliferation of the
> international gray market. When a game ships in the US first (rather than
> simultaneously across the world), foreign retailers will often buy the
> non-localized, US versions of our games (instead of waiting for the
> international versions) and sell them to their international customers. At
> first glance, this doesn't seem like a big deal, since it's not truly
> "piracy" of our products - those customers do, in fact, pay for our game.
Here is what doesn't make sense. Sierra is the distributor and can
control this absolutely - it can stop any wholesale to overseas
retailers.
It looks as though the pressure is coming from overseas retailers. One
has to assume that market must be more lucrative for them than the
American one - possible when you consider companies have to buy shelf
space here.
AQ
James Garvin
> what the hell...didn´t you read their statement at all ? it´s *not* delayed
> because it will not be completed until may. read it again :
>
> [...]
> it will be complete within the next few weeks and we couldn't be happier
> with the final product. However, the need to ship Arcanum simultaneously
> across all worldwide territories necessitated the delay here in the US
> [...]
Hence it is not complete. They still have to finish translating. Good for
them. I'd rather see the game late and finished for everyone then see Sierra
screw up a good game (yet again)
--
James Garvin
bo...@nmt.edu
James Garvin
> >(why can't everyone just use bablefish?)
>
> Ummmm.....you don't know languages other than English, right?
Ummmm....It was a joke.
--
James Garvin
bo...@nmt.edu
Peacedog1
>A VERY interesting point you have there. You're implying that Sierra is
>going for a world-wide release so that pirated copies aren't available
>outside the U.S. before the legal game is. Since I'm rather doubtful that a
>company is going to admit to it's U.S. customers that they have to wait to
>keep piracy rates down outside the U.S, this does make a certain amount of
>sense.
This was actually mentioned in the press release.
Peacedog1
>Why would they lie about the game not being done? It would be better
>if they delayed it because it wasn't finished than this world-wide
>release bullshit. Yeah I smell bullshit alright.
>
>
Beta previews have all been positive, with only minor complaints (from what
I've seen). So it looks like the game is actually done.
Jarno Kaarinen
>Bah. It's all bullshit. It's simply publishers and distributors
>looking out for their money. This is why there are regional codes for
>DVDs. Damn if you don't want the localized version. What if I'm an
>native English speaker who lives in France and is more comfortable
>with English?
Complain to French authorities who require that n% of radio music is
French, games are translated to French etc. Let's not blame Sierra if
they localize games.
I always buy English versions of games, of course.
Mark Morrison
wrote:
>
>Frank G wrote:
>
>> arcanum is delayed again. we have to wait until september !!!
>
>Well. It think it is better to release a game world wide. I have to
>agree with the decision (although being in the US I REALLY don't like
>it). It only makes sense and you can give better support that way....(I
>know that is a broad statement....)
>
>I wish it would come out in May...but I'm betting on a July release date
>(probably gonna choke those translations down)
>
>(why can't everyone just use bablefish?)
>
>--
OTOH, if someone in France is prepared to buy the US version, surely
they'll be able to speak English fluently ? If not, then it's their
fault for buying a foreign language game.
Shit, and I was looking forward to May, too. :(
Guess the next thing I buy will be the BG2 expansion...(assuming that
comes out on time.)
GSV Three Minds in a Can
chainbreaker <chainb...@email.msn.com> said
>> Something is up, either they want to build up the hype or the game really
>> isn't anywhere near done.
Anything delayed this long, after this much hype, is sort of 90% likely
to be doomed to disappoint. Think Stonekeep. Think some of the later
Ultimas. Think 'the next wizardry'. Most games are late, but after some
point of lateness it becomes serious. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm now
preparing to be less than amazed when it arrives.
--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
imp
> What bunch of BS! I'm sure European gamers won't mind, but give me a break.
Well, actually, though we moan like hell that you get games first, at least
you get all the bugs ironed out for us >;)
imp
>:)
chainbreaker
> Anything delayed this long, after this much hype, is sort of 90% likely
> to be doomed to disappoint. Think Stonekeep. Think some of the later
> Ultimas. Think 'the next wizardry'. Most games are late, but after some
> point of lateness it becomes serious. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm now
> preparing to be less than amazed when it arrives.
>
> --
> GSV Three Minds in a Can
I think Stonekeep is probably the best comparison--by the time it was
finally released, the graphics, interface, and concept were all pretty much
outdated--and a substantial number of folks had pretty much decided that
they didn't care whether it was released or not.
I'm not sure *what* to think about Wizardry. I'm to the point where if it
comes out, then that's ok, and if it doesn't . . . well, that's ok, too.
And I don't think either 8 or 9 can really be called Ultimas--but I see your
point, although I can't believe that you weren't *amazed* by Ultima 9. I
know I was. :-)
Jerry Morelock
TwinIon
I don't think piracy is the issue. It's the gray market which are still legal
customers. Well, as I said, that's ASSUMING what they claimed is true.
In article <te3cdug...@corp.supernews.com>, "Gandelon" <mul...@modex.com>
wrote:
R Cohen
That must be it! It's a matter of French pride and nationalism. "I spit on you
Americans with your blue jeans and hot dogs" Vive le France!!!
In article <MPG.154b6a10f...@news.alt.net>, Acid Queen says...
Acid Queen
R_me...@newsranger.com says...
>
> That must be it! It's a matter of French pride and nationalism. "I spit on you
> Americans with your blue jeans and hot dogs" Vive le France!!!
Makes as much sense as alienating your largest potential market and
putting yourself in a competitive situation when you could have had a
fairly clear field.
AQ
Lost Dragon
legal
> customers. Well, as I said, that's ASSUMING what they claimed is true.
I wouldn't think the grey market on Arcanum would be all that big.
It doesn't strike me as a triple A title. The setting is
non traditional and the graphics engine appears to be a bit
dated. Couple that with strong competition coming out later
this year and Arcanum never even showed up on my radar.
It's just no use in getting all lathered up about some computer
game anymore. They're all disappointing in one way or another.
--
/| .Oo__. .---.=- -= Lost Dragon, of the Grintooth Clan =- -=.---. U
{ \| ,-'' |_|_|==- To the one who tames dragons: -==|_O_| D
`,_/'(_)\_ | | |===- Web Page: http://www.lostdragon.com/ -===| | | I
<...{_)_)_''`G-C' My oath of fealty forevermore. `---' C
Mark Morrison
Mark Morrison
wrote:
>
>That must be it! It's a matter of French pride and nationalism. "I spit on you
>Americans with your blue jeans and hot dogs" Vive le France!!!
>
"I spit on you Americans with your blue jeans and hot dogs"
Not to mention soap and deodorant....
GSV Three Minds in a Can
wonderful person chainbreaker <chainbreaker7...@home.com
<big snip>
>And I don't think either 8 or 9 can really be called Ultimas--but I see your
>point, although I can't believe that you weren't *amazed* by Ultima 9. I
>know I was. :-)
Nope, never even bought it - that's why 'the buggiest game I ever
played' remains Daggerfall. After Ultima online and U8 reviews, there
was no way I was going to fall for U9. 8>.
athol-brose
<3ae0d799$1...@news.nwlink.com>:
>Although I do digress... **Maybe Sierra honestly beleives that if they
>sit on a game for five months that (and I quote) "will be complete
>within the next few weeks" just to give it a globally timed release that
>they'll have a signifigant increase in revenue vs. the paychecks they'll
>be issuing for the biggest financial bite of all: "Salary"
So you don't think that programmers can work on anything else until the
product they've just completed ships to market?
JWB
news:G6xE6.30846$JI6.1...@news1.rdc1.tx.home.com...
> > I don't think piracy is the issue. It's the gray market which are still
> legal
> > customers. Well, as I said, that's ASSUMING what they claimed is true.
>
> I wouldn't think the grey market on Arcanum would be all that big.
> It doesn't strike me as a triple A title. The setting is
> non traditional and the graphics engine appears to be a bit
> dated. Couple that with strong competition coming out later
> this year and Arcanum never even showed up on my radar.
>
> It's just no use in getting all lathered up about some computer
> game anymore. They're all disappointing in one way or another.
Isn't that the truth. I've been getting depressed going into EB and finding
nothing that really says "buy me".
James Garvin
> It's just no use in getting all lathered up about some computer
> game anymore. They're all disappointing in one way or another.
Optimism at its finest!
:-)
--
James Garvin
bo...@nmt.edu
James Garvin
> Nope, never even bought it - that's why 'the buggiest game I ever
> played' remains Daggerfall. After Ultima online and U8 reviews, there
> was no way I was going to fall for U9. 8>.
LOL. U9 was a joke. I'm not really into MMORPGs, but UO is really
pretty good if you are on a good shard. I kinda like it when the whole
world is roleplaying and the NPCs are pretty much PCs :-)
UO isn't THAT bad as long as you find a good server and don't deal with
the idiots on some of the "bad" servers... Third Dawn looks very
promising, but I'm going to wait until I have my cable modem in before I
get back to UO...
--
James Garvin
bo...@nmt.edu
Ross Ridge
"Acid Queen" <AcidQ...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Here is what doesn't make sense. Sierra is the distributor and can
> control this absolutely - it can stop any wholesale to overseas
> retailers.
Yet, it happens anyways, despite rulings which clearly make grey market
imports from outside the EU illegal throughout the EU. Fighting the forces
of supply and demand tends to be a losing battle.
Ross Ridge
Lost Dragon
> Optimism at its finest!
> :-)
But.. But.. But..
It's true! :)
Oldgeek
<9bs9h4$fuc$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>:
>> Is QA a possibility? I haven't been following this particular game,
>> but what video card was it designed to use - did it have to switch
>> cards in the middle of development?
>
>
>maybe it was very buggy and Sierra have seen what a bad response really
>buggy games get in terms of returns. For example, the fallout series,
>while 'finished' when released took a good few months afterwards to fix
>each game with patches.
>
>jon
>
>
>
Even with that Fallout 2 was never finished. They gave up on patching to
move on to something else. Otherwords screw the buyers....
JWB
--
JWB
remove spamkiller to reply via e-mail
"Oldgeek" <old...@home.net> wrote in message
news:Xns908BC5BD...@205.152.0.141...
Christoph Nahr
<rri...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
>Yet, it happens anyways, despite rulings which clearly make grey market
>imports from outside the EU illegal throughout the EU.
What rulings? Publishers do try to prevent unofficial imports but I'm
not aware of any legal backing for their stance.
--
http://www.kynosarges.de
Acid Queen
rri...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca says...
It's amazing how closed Europe is becoming - not a very healthy sign,
that.
Yes, you're probably right, but Havas doesn't *have* to do this. If the
EU doesn't like retailers selling non-French versions, providing it
isn't coming from Sierra/Havas, it's up to the EU to enforce its mandate
on the retailers.
I do feel very sad for the folks at Troika. I hope next go round they
can negotiate with a better distributor.
AQ
Frank G
Christoph Nahr <s...@reply-to.invalid> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:
kcv6etobgrri24lc8...@4ax.com...
> What rulings? Publishers do try to prevent unofficial imports but I'm
> not aware of any legal backing for their stance.
ask some german retailers (or import wholesalers) how they feel about eidos,
activision, nintendo or sony (there are even more, but i am to lazy to think
about, but until now, sierra not). as an answer you will recieve *a lot* of
f...words :-)
technically (was that the right word ?) grey imports are equal to illegal
copies and this is the modern version of gestapo :
http://www.gvu.de/start_v4.html
normally this guys should hunt down illegal copies, but in the last 18
months they "visited" a nice number of import retailers. some of them even
shut down because they coudn´t afford all the penalties they were charged
for.
by the way, the same gvu hunts also for rc1 dvd´s here in germany :
http://www.gvu.de/deutsch/fr_akt.html
fr@nk
Led Mirage
wrote:
>To me as a customer it sucks, I'm european and if I wanted to play this game
>really badly I could've ordered it through the internet or bought it in one
>of the many import gameshops around here.
This is exactly the reason why they're delaying the game. They don't
want people to buy from the grey market because then the European
distributors will get screwed. Also, it maybe that the Europeans think
this title will be big in Europe, so they demand that Sierra to make a
"Woldwide" release or else.
Led Mirage
<AcidQ...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>As far as marketing goes, you're right - it makes no sense at all. If
>there were issues with it, it would've been smarter to say so. People
>will wait for problems to be fixed - they won't hold still for this
>nonsense. Besides, European companies release games there first -
>Rowan's Battle of Britain, 1602, Longest Journey, Silver etc spring
>immediately to mind.
It is quite possible that they project this game to sell a lot in
Europe. Don't forget that RPGs and adventures sell quite well in
Europe. So they are taking measures to curb out the grey market and
nothing more.
Led Mirage
<AcidQ...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>That's definitely the way I feel about it. Having thought about this,
>the only conclusion I can come to is - the French company that owns
>Sierra has intervened. Only the French are stupid enough to jeopardize
>their earnings in order to put it out in France first.
Huh? No, man. They'd be jeopardizing their earnings in European if
it's released in the States some 6 months earlier. That's because the
retailors will simply order the US version or get if off Internet
stores (i.e. the grey market) and the European distributors get
NOTHING out of it. 6 months later, nobody will buy their localized
version because they all have the US version already.
Christoph Nahr
wrote:
>technically (was that the right word ?) grey imports are equal to illegal
>copies and this is the modern version of gestapo :
>http://www.gvu.de/start_v4.html
Very interesting, in particular section Parallelimporte on this page:
http://www.gvu.de/deutsch/fr_recht.html
(there might be an English translation somwhere on the site)
However, as defined by §17 UrhG (Verbreitungsrecht), "grey imports"
are only illegal if copies are *distributed* (i.e. by a retailer) in a
country covered by an existing distribution agreement. There's not a
word in the entire UrhG, or on the GVU page above, on purchase for
personal use. Private imports from US mail order shops are completely
legal, at least as far as the European purchaser is concerned.
Also, commercial redistribution across the EU and associated states is
legal. Even the GVU admits as much.
By the way, I suggest that people interested in these matters should
buy a copy of the UrhG... it's a cheap DM 19,90 paperback and the
concise legal text states the issue much clearer than the hate
propaganda on the intentionally obfuscated GVU website!
--
http://www.kynosarges.de
Werner Arend
Indeed. The result is just that I buy fewer games if I have to pay $20 to
FedEx and $10 trade duty in addition to the price for a game. SO the games
industry wants that my money gets to FedEx instead of them. Strange :-).
BTW, this has nothing to do with the law. Grey market imports are in no
way illegal in the EU. These restrictions are a result of agreements
between publishers and the restrictions they impose on re-sellers.
Werner
Acid Queen
says...
> On Sat, 21 Apr 2001 10:58:17 -0500, Acid Queen
> <AcidQ...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> >That's definitely the way I feel about it. Having thought about this,
> >the only conclusion I can come to is - the French company that owns
> >Sierra has intervened. Only the French are stupid enough to jeopardize
> >their earnings in order to put it out in France first.
>
> Huh? No, man. They'd be jeopardizing their earnings in European if
> it's released in the States some 6 months earlier. That's because the
> retailors will simply order the US version or get if off Internet
> stores (i.e. the grey market) and the European distributors get
> NOTHING out of it.
But they *are* the European distributor .....Doesn't matter where the
Europeans buy it, the distributor has already sold it, so they have
their cut.
> 6 months later, nobody will buy their localized
> version because they all have the US version already.
In that case, don't do a localised version. Make it and sell it here,
and let them get it how they may. This is about France, not Europe. It's
only being translated into French, no?
Hell, in Sierras shoes I'd not bother releasing it in France anyway
(assuming the American market is 4 or 5 times the size) That way, I
wouldn't have to go to the expense of the translation, and I'd still get
a chunk via the grey market.
It'll be interesting to see how this all plays out. I don't think it'll
affect their US market much - and how will anyone know? Personally, I
would've bought within a week or two of the May release, assuming the
reviews were good. Waiting till September means I can wait a bit longer
to get it at bargain rates.
I'm one of those oddballs who believes in supporting the industry that
satisfies my habit. I don't support companies that put other markets
first.
AQ
Werner Arend
On Mon, 23 Apr 2001, Frank G wrote:
> Christoph Nahr <s...@reply-to.invalid> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:
> kcv6etobgrri24lc8...@4ax.com...
>
> > What rulings? Publishers do try to prevent unofficial imports but I'm
> > not aware of any legal backing for their stance.
>
> ask some german retailers (or import wholesalers) how they feel about eidos,
> activision, nintendo or sony (there are even more, but i am to lazy to think
> about, but until now, sierra not). as an answer you will recieve *a lot* of
> f...words :-)
>
> technically (was that the right word ?) grey imports are equal to illegal
> copies and this is the modern version of gestapo :
> http://www.gvu.de/start_v4.html
Well, hmm. I didn't think grey imports were really illegal, but you're
right. Well, it doesn't feel wrong to me by any standard, and anyway the
law says *distribution* is illegal, i.e. technically I don't break the law
if I only buy a copy for me.
BTW, the reasoning sounds OK to me, even if the result is ludicrous. They
say that the owner of the rights to a product has the right to control
where, and in which way, that product may be distributed, especially the
right to restrict licenses regionally.
Well, I still won't have any attacks of conscience when buying grey
imports, and I'll continue to do it...
Werner
Acid Queen
says...
> On Sat, 21 Apr 2001 07:31:41 -0500, Acid Queen
> <AcidQ...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> >As far as marketing goes, you're right - it makes no sense at all. If
> >there were issues with it, it would've been smarter to say so. People
> >will wait for problems to be fixed - they won't hold still for this
> >nonsense. Besides, European companies release games there first -
> >Rowan's Battle of Britain, 1602, Longest Journey, Silver etc spring
> >immediately to mind.
>
> It is quite possible that they project this game to sell a lot in
> Europe. Don't forget that RPGs and adventures sell quite well in
> Europe.
Yes they do, and interestingly enough, when they (the ones I mentioned)
are sold here after their European release, they don't do well. I don't
know about BOB, but sales were dismal on the others... which, of course
could mean the reverse had happened. I certainly bought 2 of those from
England - but the distributors got their cut.
> So they are taking measures to curb out the grey market and
> nothing more.
It still doesn't make sense. If the Europeans (the consumers) were
buying it direct from American retailers, I could see the argument that
European retailers were losing out, but apparently it is the retailers
who are buying from the States....
Still, I think you are right in that what they are saying is the truth -
it isn't a problem with the game. Given the circumstances, I think it is
very stupid to withhold it at this stage - after the hype and all, and
could hurt the US market.
AQ
Frank G
Christoph Nahr <s...@reply-to.invalid> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:
> Private imports from US mail order shops are completely
> legal, at least as far as the European purchaser is concerned.
maybe, but it has no practical meaning. if retailers are forbidden to import
some of the games, the casual user can´t even afford it in most cases.
together with shipping costs and taxes one us game costs 80 - 120 $ (it
depends on how fast you want your game and it will take from 2 days to 8
weeks). did i mentioned special editions ? ouch...add 30 - 40 $ because they
are usually more expensive and in some cases very heavy.
and what´s up with nintendo and sony f.e. ? in the last couple of years the
german customs authorities confiscated even private shipments from us or
japan. in this cases they will keep your games and after a while you will
recieve a letter, that you violated some copy rights and licensing
agreements. for private users that means that your games are gone but there
will be at least no further lawsuit. for retailers the next step would be a
nice visit from a bunch of gvu guys, policemen and a public prosecutor. they
will punish you with a huge stack of "abmahnungen" (sorry, i don´t know an
english word for this..it costs you some serious money for each illegaly
imported game and if you continue to violate their copy rights, things will
become *really* ugly). at the end there would be a very expensive lawsuit
against the retailer. "very expensive" means, that in some cases the
retailers have had to shut down.
fr@nk
Gandelon
> I don't think piracy is the issue. It's the gray market which are still
legal
> customers. Well, as I said, that's ASSUMING what they claimed is true.
Well, don't know that I'd be buying that explanation. After all, I doubt
margins are any higher on European releases than they are on American
titles. If anything, I'd expect the opposite to be true. Unless there's
some reason to channel profits into European operations, but I rather doubt
there are tax advantages.
It could be that Sierra has some data (or at least a theory) that non-US
gamers would have less qualms about pirating a US game than they would about
pirating a European one.
Of course, as an American myself, I'm pretty partial to the French
damn-the-Americans conspiracy theory :)
Gandelon
> Hence it is not complete. They still have to finish translating. Good
for
> them. I'd rather see the game late and finished for everyone then see
Sierra
> screw up a good game (yet again)
Actually, if the object was a bug-free game, it would make more sense to
release the game in the U.S. first, so as to only have to patch the U.S.
release (sure they won't need to, of course... ahem.) The bugs, presumably,
would be worked out by the time the translation was complete.
Lucian Wischik
>Well, don't know that I'd be buying that explanation. After all, I doubt
>margins are any higher on European releases than they are on American
>titles. If anything, I'd expect the opposite to be true.
(1) An English-language game in France would probably sell worse than a
French-language game. It'd sell to the hard-core gamers, but more casual
gamers and francophone gamers would be put off.
(2) If they release an english-language version in the US, then the
french hard-core will also buy a copy.
(3) Therefore there'd be less excitement in France when a french version
comes out (since the excitement and hype would have been partitioned, and
the french version would be "old news", a "second mention", by the time
it came out). Therefore they wouldn't sell as much in total.
At least, that's what I understood from the Sierra press release. Does
anyone disagree with any part of this?
--
Lucian Wischik, Queens' College, Cambridge CB3 9ET. www.wischik.com/lu
Lucian Wischik
>Hell, in Sierras shoes I'd not bother releasing it in France anyway
>(assuming the American market is 4 or 5 times the size) That way, I
>wouldn't have to go to the expense of the translation, and I'd still get
>a chunk via the grey market.
Seriously? You think that, for a measly saving (five translators employed
for five months) they should kiss goodbye to 10% of their revenue on this
title? Remember that the marginal effort needed to get more customers
through translating is *VASTLY* smaller than the marginal effort needed to
get more customers through writing the game in the first place.
Ykalon Dragon
>
> > Is QA a possibility? I haven't been following this particular game, but
> > what video card was it designed to use - did it have to switch cards in
> > the middle of development?
>
> maybe it was very buggy and Sierra have seen what a bad response really
> buggy games get in terms of returns. For example, the fallout series, while
> 'finished' when released took a good few months afterwards to fix each game
> with patches.
>
> jon
None of the previews has mentioned anything about it being buggy and
they all have
a press demo so they should know.
Ykalon Dragon
>
> On 21 Apr 2001 04:38:49 GMT, lheil...@aol.com (LHeilb8013) wrote:
>
> >This is crap!!! If true, why did European games like Longest Journey, EU or
> >Independence War not wait for US publishers before they were released in their
> >own countries........I might not bother to buy the damn thing at all, why
> >support a company who obviously does not care about the customers??
> >
> >Lloyd Heilbrunn
>
> Haha. You sound suprised! Let me tell you something, no game
> publisher cares about it's customers! It is the way of the corporate
> world, it's all money we all know that. We and the game developers
> must take it up the ass.
>
> --------------
> Devo
No, not even that. If they wanted money they would release it now and
not try to compete
with NWN the BG2 expansion and the D2 expansion. It seems like most
publishers are ruled
by imbeciles.
Martin Schnitter
Led Mirage schrieb:
> Huh? No, man. They'd be jeopardizing their earnings in European if
> it's released in the States some 6 months earlier. That's because the
> retailors will simply order the US version or get if off Internet
> stores (i.e. the grey market) and the European distributors get
> NOTHING out of it. 6 months later, nobody will buy their localized
> version because they all have the US version already.
Well, that somehow assumes that the french and german buyers wouldn't
care which language the game comes in. At least for the germans I can
say that most players here are really choosy when it comes to english
games. It's not that they wouldn't understand the game, but they are
just used to get it translated. Then again the "hardcore-gamers" will
get the original version anyway, no matter the delay. I really can't
imagine the losses (if you can speak of "losses" at all - I'm buying the
game after all, just not from a german store) from the people in germany
who prefer the english version are so big, but that's just pure
assumption on my side.
Just my 0,02$
Martin
Acid Queen
says...
> Acid Queen <AcidQ...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >Hell, in Sierras shoes I'd not bother releasing it in France anyway
> >(assuming the American market is 4 or 5 times the size) That way, I
> >wouldn't have to go to the expense of the translation, and I'd still get
> >a chunk via the grey market.
>
> Seriously? You think that, for a measly saving (five translators employed
> for five months) they should kiss goodbye to 10% of their revenue on this
> title?
If what they are saying is correct, they won't lose that market at all -
the game will still be purchased, but from retailers they don't like -
and they are (possibly) jeopardising the US market to do that.
I'm afraid Werner's assessment is the more likely. They are busy
manipulating the retailers in Europe. Either way isn't in the consumers
interest, of course, but this is obviously a company that doesn't
include the importance of taking care of your customers in the bottom
line.
> Remember that the marginal effort needed to get more customers
> through translating is *VASTLY* smaller than the marginal effort needed to
> get more customers through writing the game in the first place.
But risking the 90% market for the 10% one? No way! Besides, ANY effort
to serve a market where there is no demand (what they are saying) is
wasted.
If it wasn't for Troika, I'd be amused to see the US retailers really
throw the screws to them for shelf space. (Another source of great
irritation to me, but again a separate issue)
AQ
Olaf
horrid utility install/uninstall program in the months between now and
September.
Now that I think about it, all Sierra games suck (including
Tribes/Tribes2). I think Half-Life is the only Sierra game I have ever
liked.
olaf
James Garvin <bo...@nmt.edu> wrote in message
news:3AE1BB02...@nmt.edu...
> Frank G wrote:
>
> > what the hell...didn´t you read their statement at all ? it´s *not*
delayed
> > because it will not be completed until may. read it again :
> >
> > [...]
> > it will be complete within the next few weeks and we couldn't be
happier
> > with the final product. However, the need to ship Arcanum
simultaneously
> > across all worldwide territories necessitated the delay here in the US
> > [...]
>
> Hence it is not complete. They still have to finish translating. Good
for
> them. I'd rather see the game late and finished for everyone then see
Sierra
> screw up a good game (yet again)
>
> --
> James Garvin
> bo...@nmt.edu
>
>
Ross Ridge
"Christoph Nahr" <s...@reply-to.invalid> wrote:
> ... Private imports from US mail order shops are completely
> legal, at least as far as the European purchaser is concerned.
Well, as someone else mentioned they can be seized at the border.
> Also, commercial redistribution across the EU and associated states is
> legal. Even the GVU admits as much.
Yup, EU competition law allows this. Essentially the ruling I referred to,
if I remeber correctly, said that the EU competition laws don't apply to
grey market imports from outside of the EU.
> By the way, I suggest that people interested in these matters should
> buy a copy of the UrhG... it's a cheap DM 19,90 paperback and the
> concise legal text states the issue much clearer than the hate
> propaganda on the intentionally obfuscated GVU website!
Hate propaganda? Oooo.... I heard you can get a organization banned in
Germany for distributing hate propaganda... :-)
Ross Ridge
Ross Ridge
rri...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca says...
> Yet, it happens anyways, despite rulings which clearly make grey market
> imports from outside the EU illegal throughout the EU. Fighting the
> forces of supply and demand tends to be a losing battle.
"Acid Queen" <AcidQ...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> It's amazing how closed Europe is becoming - not a very healthy sign,
> that.
Well, I believe it's also illegal in the US for the exact same reasons. The
US generally has more competition than the rest of the world and so prices
tend to be cheaper in the US, so there's not as much demand there for grey
market imports.
> Yes, you're probably right, but Havas doesn't *have* to do this. If the
> EU doesn't like retailers selling non-French versions, providing it
> isn't coming from Sierra/Havas, it's up to the EU to enforce its mandate
> on the retailers.
If the EU did as US style "war on drugs" campaign against grey market
software imports, I imagine they could put a big dent in the market, but it
would hardly be worth it.
Ross Ridge
Ross Ridge
"Werner Arend" <kii...@mail.uni-tuebingen.de> wrote:
> BTW, this has nothing to do with the law. Grey market imports are in no
> way illegal in the EU. These restrictions are a result of agreements
> between publishers and the restrictions they impose on re-sellers.
Those agreements are contracts enforceable by law, so it has everything to
do with the law. Copyright and trademark law also relevent here.
Ross Ridge
Knight37
>Sierra has no reason to lie about the game being unfinished. In fact
>saying that there was still development to do would be more fan friendly
>as most fans are content to wait as programming goes on, but to wait just
>because Sierra feels like making us wait is ludicrous, and I wont be
>buying Arcanum at this point. I'll warez it.
So you're willing to steal from Troika to "get back" at Sierra?
Of course, we all know you would still be a sleazy little warez d00d
whether or not Sierra released the game in may... your flimsy little
justifications for theft may work on your feeble mind, but you're not
fooling the rest of us.
Knight37
James Garvin
> So you're willing to steal from Troika to "get back" at Sierra?
>
> Of course, we all know you would still be a sleazy little warez d00d
> whether or not Sierra released the game in may... your flimsy little
> justifications for theft may work on your feeble mind, but you're not
> fooling the rest of us.
Oh he is just mad because he can't warez it in may :-)
--
James Garvin
bo...@nmt.edu
Ykalon Dragon
I will probably buy the American version anyway. I've been screwed too
many times by the
European versions of games. BG1 came without the almost necessary map,
BG2 with a manual
that demanded a microscope to read same with Icewind Dale. I want to
enjoy the game not be frustrated
by missing maps or unreadable manuals.
Ykalon Dragon
But in this case it's the other way around. Sierra is owned by the
French company
Havas. Lets go to war with the French unless they release Arcanum now.
Ykalon Dragon
>
> In article <3ae7d1d4...@news.netvigator.com>, lmi...@yahoo.com
> says...
> > On Sat, 21 Apr 2001 10:58:17 -0500, Acid Queen
> > <AcidQ...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > >That's definitely the way I feel about it. Having thought about this,
> > >the only conclusion I can come to is - the French company that owns
> > >Sierra has intervened. Only the French are stupid enough to jeopardize
> > >their earnings in order to put it out in France first.
> >
> > Huh? No, man. They'd be jeopardizing their earnings in European if
> > it's released in the States some 6 months earlier. That's because the
> > retailors will simply order the US version or get if off Internet
> > stores (i.e. the grey market) and the European distributors get
> > NOTHING out of it.
>
> But they *are* the European distributor .....Doesn't matter where the
> Europeans buy it, the distributor has already sold it, so they have
> their cut.
>
> > 6 months later, nobody will buy their localized
> > version because they all have the US version already.
>
> In that case, don't do a localised version. Make it and sell it here,
> and let them get it how they may. This is about France, not Europe. It's
> only being translated into French, no?
And German. And it's not an option for Sierra to bypass the French
market considering
they are owned by the French company Havas.
Ykalon Dragon
>
> Christoph Nahr <s...@reply-to.invalid> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:
> lo28et0rodko7vt28...@4ax.com...
>
> > Private imports from US mail order shops are completely
> > legal, at least as far as the European purchaser is concerned.
>
> maybe, but it has no practical meaning. if retailers are forbidden to import
> some of the games, the casual user can´t even afford it in most cases.
> together with shipping costs and taxes one us game costs 80 - 120 $ (it
> depends on how fast you want your game and it will take from 2 days to 8
> weeks). did i mentioned special editions ? ouch...add 30 - 40 $ because they
> are usually more expensive and in some cases very heavy.
If you order it from EB yes. But there are stores that don't charge you
the roof over
your head for shipping a game. Like www.dragon.ca
portia_EH
news:Xns908B9158AA...@216.166.62.35...
>
> So you don't think that programmers can work on anything else until the
> product they've just completed ships to market?
That's a good point -- but not good enough to nullify the excremented PR
shroud of smoke.
--
=================================================
"When virtue sleeps, [x] awakes refreshed!" -FN
-EH (remove "no2spam~" for reply address)
Frank G
Ykalon Dragon <yka...@softhome.net> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:
3AE45A63...@softhome.net...
> If you order it from EB yes. But there are stores that don't charge you
> the roof over
> your head for shipping a game. Like www.dragon.ca
yes, games without boxes, nice :-) that愀 even more bad than games in
dvd-boxes.
fr@nk
Christoph Nahr
wrote:
>maybe, but it has no practical meaning. if retailers are forbidden to import
>some of the games, the casual user can´t even afford it in most cases.
Agreed, the price and the need to own a credit card are a problem.
>and what´s up with nintendo and sony f.e. ? in the last couple of years the
>german customs authorities confiscated even private shipments from us or
>japan. in this cases they will keep your games and after a while you will
>recieve a letter, that you violated some copy rights and licensing
>agreements.
This is absolutely illegal according to my reading of the law. The
customs officers probably fell for the lies of the industry lawyers.
There *might* be some special licensing restrictions tied to these two
(proprietary) console systems but if that kind of thing happened to me
with PC games, I'd complain to the customs office and file a lawsuit
if necessary. The law clearly covers only duplication & distribution.
>for retailers the next step would be a
>nice visit from a bunch of gvu guys, policemen and a public prosecutor. they
>will punish you with a huge stack of "abmahnungen" (sorry, i don´t know an
>english word for this..it costs you some serious money for each illegaly
>imported game and if you continue to violate their copy rights, things will
>become *really* ugly). at the end there would be a very expensive lawsuit
>against the retailer. "very expensive" means, that in some cases the
>retailers have had to shut down.
Yes, being a software retailer in Germany sucks... unless you do it
the cheap way and only stock the stuff the German distributors tell
you to stock. The law against grey imports is blatant monopoly
legislation, an anti-competition and anti-consumer law. It only helps
the parasitary and unproductive European distributors of US software.
These are the same ones responsible for poor translations, crippled
releases, and censorship in excess of what the law would require.
Speaking of which, I think at least part of the motivation for this
law was the protection of country-specific censorship schemes. Pretty
hard to sell censored games when uncensored copies are sitting on the
shelves right next to them! Unfortunately no party in Germany gives a
shit about civil liberties unless their own clientele is affected, and
the number of people who want original American computer games or DVD
movies is probably fairly irrelevant at elections. :-(
--
http://www.kynosarges.de
Christoph Nahr
<kii...@mail.uni-tuebingen.de> wrote:
>BTW, the reasoning sounds OK to me, even if the result is ludicrous. They
>say that the owner of the rights to a product has the right to control
>where, and in which way, that product may be distributed, especially the
>right to restrict licenses regionally.
Well, I disagree with the reasoning as well as with the results. Once
the owners have decided to publish their products, why should they
have any say in who gets to buy them? Maybe Cleve Blakemore doesn't
want to sell to Canadians -- so should the police be authorised to
seize all copies of Grimoire sold in Toronto? It's an insane concept.
They also say they want to protect national distributors but in my
opinion, these distributors *should* go out of business if they don't
manage to offer a compelling advantage over direct imports. The
distributors wouldn't need legal protection if they didn't offer
piss-poor translations that are half a year late, come without a
decent manual, and never receive necessary patches!
--
http://www.kynosarges.de
Olaf
on the shelf forsale anywhere.
olaf
James Garvin <bo...@nmt.edu> wrote in message
news:3AE47C35...@nmt.edu...
chainbreaker
> None of the previews has mentioned anything about it being buggy and
> they all have
> a press demo so they should know.
>
>
Previews are just as apt--maybe even more apt--to be based upon publisher's
releases than any actual gameplay. I very much doubt that any of those
press releases are going to say, "This is a buggy, unplayable mess."
None of the Outpost previews ever suggested what a half-baked pile of crap
that game was going to be, either.
Jerry Morelock
Andrew Lorraine
> Previews are just as apt--maybe even more apt--to be based upon
publisher's
> releases than any actual gameplay. I very much doubt that any of those
> press releases are going to say, "This is a buggy, unplayable mess."
>
> None of the Outpost previews ever suggested what a half-baked pile of crap
> that game was going to be, either.
> Jerry Morelock
In fact, I remember many glowing previews of "Outhouse" at the time, never
mentioning missing/poorly implemented features or static, mechanical
gameplay. Paying real attention to previews is utterly pointless most of the
time.
+AL+
Miles Lippincott
Lucian Wischik wrote in message
>(1) An English-language game in France would probably sell worse than a
French-language game. It'd sell to the hard-core gamers, but more casual
gamers and francophone gamers would be put off.
>
>(2) If they release an english-language version in the US, then the
>french hard-core will also buy a copy.
>
>(3) Therefore there'd be less excitement in France when a french version
comes out (since the excitement and hype would have been partitioned, and
the french version would be "old news", a "second mention", by the time it
came out). Therefore they wouldn't sell as much in total.
>
>
>At least, that's what I understood from the Sierra press release. Does
>anyone disagree with any part of this?
>
That is essentially the argument made in the press release, and I agree that
their argument makes sense. What doesn't make sense in the Arcanum
situation is the timing of this announcement. Of course, they have made no
attempt to explain that.
As time goes on, we are going to see more games released simultaneously in
the major markets, with each market receiving a "localised" version of the
game. That may mean delays in the US, where we are used to getting the game
first. As long as companies are up front about this, we as gamers have no
reason to be upset.
The reason this level up anger has arisen is because people believe they
have been misled or lied to by Sierra/Havas. When Arcanum was delayed last
fall, we were told that the game would be out by late spring. The delay was
due to a desire to polish the game and "make it the best game it could be."
There was some disappointment, but we understood. Up until the announcement
late last week, the game was just "weeks away." Suddenly, out of nowhere,
we see a significant delay, essentially at the last minute. While I can
understand Sierra/Havas desire to achieve a worldwide release, they had to
have known some time ago that it wasn't possible. If localisation will take
4 months, then they were four months behind on it for a long time. Why they
waited for the last minute, I'll never know.
What I suspect, however, is this. Sierra intended to publish the US version
when it was done and worry about localisation later. Havas stepped in and
ordered otherwise last week. How else do you explain the marketing effort
for the game that was clearly gearing up (press demos, ads, promo items sent
to retailers)? From what I've heard, Sierra has been doing poorly
financially for some time and whatever autonomy they had from Havas is gone.
Miles
Kvan
> As time goes on, we are going to see more games released
> simultaneously in the major markets, with each market receiving a
> "localised" version of the game.
I fear you're right. If they are to do this, they better get their act
together, though. I don't know about the big languages (Spanish,
German and French), but the few games I've seen localized to Danish
have all suffered from distracting translation errors, spelling
mistaks and problems with strings not fitting where they're supposed
to.
Another problem, which they MUST address if they want to have any hope
of selling a localized version to me, is that patches are currently
delayed as much as months for the localized versions. That's just
plain unacceptable, and the major factor in my buying non-localized
versions of games whenever possible.
- Kvan.
Werner Arend
On Mon, 23 Apr 2001, Frank G wrote:
> > If you order it from EB yes. But there are stores that don't charge you
> > the roof over
> > your head for shipping a game. Like www.dragon.ca
>
> yes, games without boxes, nice :-) that´s even more bad than games in
> dvd-boxes.
Why? I throw the boxes away as soon as I have the games anyway. I have too
many games to put a lot of empty space on my shelf.
Werner
Frank G
Werner Arend <kii...@mail.uni-tuebingen.de> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:
Pine.LNX.4.30.01042...@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de...
> Why? I throw the boxes away as soon as I have the games anyway. I have too
> many games to put a lot of empty space on my shelf.
space ? that can愒 be the problem ! 5 shelfes in the corner of a
room...enough for me for about 750 board- and computer games (mostly board
games...bigger than computer games...). are you living in hongkong or japan
where space *is* limited ?
it愀 too easy to lose parts.
you don愒 even know, that you get all parts in the initial shipment. do you
like it, if a worker from dragon.ca mixed up a reference card with
advertisement (as happened with a friend of mine two times) ? i want to
decide, what to throw away and what not and i wouldn愒 leave this decision
to an anonymous worker. by the way, i don愒 even like the idea that it is
touched by someone :-)
i like to collect things. a lot of us-boxes are very nice made. to collect
hundreds of games in zip bags f.e.would look really ugly and my wife would
kill me for this behaviour . she accepts it *only* because they look somehow
like books. remember : once you愉e married, you愉e just a guest in your own
house anymore :-)
would you rip off and throw away the covers of your books and just keep the
pages ? ridiculous ? no, it愀 practical, i mean, after they are not so heavy
anymore :-)
it愀 saver to transport. maybe the box gets a bend, but not the manual.
if you want to to sell some of your games, you惻l get much, much more money
with box. believe me !.
fr@nk
Ykalon Dragon
You can demand the box as well but it costs extra but still even with
that extra cost
it's nowhere near the horrible price EB charges.
Werner Arend
On Tue, 24 Apr 2001, Frank G wrote:
> > Why? I throw the boxes away as soon as I have the games anyway. I have too
> > many games to put a lot of empty space on my shelf.
>
> space ? that can´t be the problem ! 5 shelfes in the corner of a
> room...enough for me for about 750 board- and computer games (mostly board
> games...bigger than computer games...). are you living in hongkong or japan
> where space *is* limited ?
It is a problem when you own a few thousand books and do not own a house.
BTW, I seriously doubt that you can put 750 computer game boxes into a
corner of a room. I haven't seen a *store* with more than about 1000
boxes - oh, maybe one.
> would you rip off and throw away the covers of your books and just keep the
> pages ? ridiculous ? no, it´s practical, i mean, after they are not so heavy
> anymore :-)
Ripping off the covers of a book would save about 5% of shelf space.
Throwing away computer game boxes would save about 90%. Besides, the game
is essentially complete without the box. It's only packaging, after all.
Not so with books.
> it´s saver to transport. maybe the box gets a bend, but not the manual.
Indeed. But I didn't notice that dragon.ca shipped their games without
manuals.
BTW, I *was* disappointed when I first got a game from dragon.ca without
box - because it was one of the few instances where I wanted the box. :-(.
> if you want to to sell some of your games, you´ll get much, much more money
> with box. believe me !.
That is right, and the only reason why I keep the boxes of some games.
Werner
Werner Arend
Yes, but with no simultaneous release and no regional restrictions,
national distributors would be hurt even if their work was good because
people would rather "get it early" than wait.
Perhaps publishers like Sierra see that it's impossible to enforce the ban
against grey imports. More simultaneous but late releases would be a small
price to pay for the removal of regional restrictions. I don't see it
coming, but Sierra's decision might not be a bad one (except for the
impatient US customers, of course).
Werner