Disappointed with RPGs
Jeff Chou
Hi all,
I've been away from RPGs for the longest time. The last RPGs I
played were Bard's Tale I, II, Dungeon Master I, the old Wizardrys,
and the first 3 Ultimas.
Recently, I've returned to the RPG world and have been searching
for a good RPG to play, and have discovered (after looking at Stonekeep,
Betrayal at Krondor, and Anvil of Dawn) that RPGs have NOT evolved
as much as other genres (ie - strategy, action, sim).
I was looking for the rare, revolutionary game that takes the entire
industry a step forward (games like Dungeon Master was to RPGs, Civilization
to strategy, DOOM to first person action, etc.) but have not found
anything in the world of RPGs.
In fact, I am suprised how little RPGs have come since Dungeon Master.
Here I am playing Anvil of Dawn and Betrayal at Krondor, and the
saying to myself, "This is all that has improved in the last 7 years????"
To be frank, what a disappointment. Sure, the "plot" might be more beefy.
There are NPCs that talk to you, though with a fixed piece of dialogue.
But in the end, nothing really new (conceptually or graphically).
In Anvil of Dawn, I am wandering the halls of someplace hacking monsters,
stepping on pressure plates, pushing/pulling things on walls to open
a secret door. Come on, where's the originality? This is Dungeon Master
all over again. There is more of a plot, but how much better is it
than Ultima 3 for being 7 years ago?
Don't get me wrong. I love a good RPG; and to some extent, I enjoy
Anvil of Dawn. But, I am just disappointed at how little RPGs have
evolved.
To be honest, I don't know what I am looking for that is new. That's
why I am not an RPG game designer. I am a consumer. And I am waiting
for that revolutionary step!
I guess I have to continue to wait...
Flame away if you please....
Jeff
Fantasy Freak
jpc...@Eng.Sun.COM (Jeff Chou) wrote:
>Hi all,
>I've been away from RPGs for the longest time. The last RPGs I
>played were Bard's Tale I, II, Dungeon Master I, the old Wizardrys,
>and the first 3 Ultimas.
>Recently, I've returned to the RPG world and have been searching
>for a good RPG to play, and have discovered (after looking at Stonekeep,
>Betrayal at Krondor, and Anvil of Dawn) that RPGs have NOT evolved
>as much as other genres (ie - strategy, action, sim).
>I was looking for the rare, revolutionary game that takes the entire
>industry a step forward (games like Dungeon Master was to RPGs, Civilization
>to strategy, DOOM to first person action, etc.) but have not found
>anything in the world of RPGs.
Well if you haven't looked at Arena yet you might like what you see
there. How about the ability to create your own potions and spells and
almost complete nonlinearity. Arena's not perfect but it has a lot of
new ideas. Daggerfall, Arena's successor, also seems to be heading in
new dimensions it ought to be out before the end of the century
although it was originally slated for Summer 95. If you haven't played
Might and Magic's series you should give it a go also. You can buy a
Trilogy CD with 4 complete games on it. Don't ask me why they call it
a trilogy. If you've played 3 then you know people at New World aren't
very good at math :) Hope these 2 suggestions meet with your approval
and let me know if you like em.
Christopher A. Tew
jpc...@Eng.Sun.COM (Jeff Chou) wrote:
>Recently, I've returned to the RPG world and have been searching
>for a good RPG to play, and have discovered (after looking at Stonekeep,
>Betrayal at Krondor, and Anvil of Dawn) that RPGs have NOT evolved
>as much as other genres (ie - strategy, action, sim).
The problem is that you've not really sampled enough recent CRPGs.
Anvil and Stonekeep are both Dungeon Master rip-offs. Betrayal at
Krondor was just great. It didn't do anything revloutionary, but it
did everything extrememly well. It was gratifying to have good
dialouge and a fully-fleshed-out universe for a change.
You should try these CRPGs and perhaps reevaluate your opinion:
Ultimas 5-7.5
Wizadry 7
SSI Gold Box AD&D(Pools of Radiance, etc.). These had the best combat
system of any CRPG to date.
Also, there are no real revolutions in the CRPG genre. It evolves
slowly, perhaps since they're so complex. Compare BAK with Dungeon
Master. There are great but subtle differences.
--Christopher A. Tew----------------
"If you want to know the truth
you gotta dig up Johnny Booth,
and I hate cough syrup don't you?
Yes I hate cough syrup it's true."
-Butthole Surfers, "Cough Syrup"
---------------------chri...@eden.com
James Landes
: I've been away from RPGs for the longest time. The last RPGs I
: played were Bard's Tale I, II, Dungeon Master I, the old Wizardrys,
: and the first 3 Ultimas.
: Recently, I've returned to the RPG world and have been searching
: for a good RPG to play, and have discovered (after looking at Stonekeep,
: Betrayal at Krondor, and Anvil of Dawn) that RPGs have NOT evolved
: as much as other genres (ie - strategy, action, sim).
: I was looking for the rare, revolutionary game that takes the entire
: industry a step forward (games like Dungeon Master was to RPGs, Civilization
: to strategy, DOOM to first person action, etc.) but have not found
: anything in the world of RPGs.
: In fact, I am suprised how little RPGs have come since Dungeon Master.
: Here I am playing Anvil of Dawn and Betrayal at Krondor, and the
: saying to myself, "This is all that has improved in the last 7 years????"
: To be frank, what a disappointment. Sure, the "plot" might be more beefy.
: There are NPCs that talk to you, though with a fixed piece of dialogue.
: But in the end, nothing really new (conceptually or graphically).
: In Anvil of Dawn, I am wandering the halls of someplace hacking monsters,
: stepping on pressure plates, pushing/pulling things on walls to open
: a secret door. Come on, where's the originality? This is Dungeon Master
: all over again. There is more of a plot, but how much better is it
: than Ultima 3 for being 7 years ago?
: Don't get me wrong. I love a good RPG; and to some extent, I enjoy
: Anvil of Dawn. But, I am just disappointed at how little RPGs have
: evolved.
: To be honest, I don't know what I am looking for that is new. That's
: why I am not an RPG game designer. I am a consumer. And I am waiting
: for that revolutionary step!
Many of are just like you, waiting for that next great conceptual step.
There have been some interesting and exiciting developments that could
lead to that "revolutionary step"..
The graphic intensive interative 3-d game engine....
The move to a more dynamic environment as opposed to a static environment.
The move to customize your character
"class/characteristics/abilities/orientation"
to suit "role playing tastes"
The development of multi-player on-line products.
The blending of individual control of a character with control over
non player characters (tactical to grand tactical elements).
I think that the "great product" may just be around the corner...all
of the design elements are in place, but no single company is addressing
them all.
Jim Landes
Tomfoolery
On 1996 May 24 Friday, Jeff Chou wrote...
: I guess I have to continue to wait...
:
: Flame away if you please....
I agree. I think the next big step will be home virtual reality RPGames.
Imagine looking around at your environment, reaching out you hand
and touching stuff, wielding weapons, running. Another frontier will
probably be artificially intelligent conversations.
On line games are going to totally revolutionize gaming. True multiparty
gaming will be possible with teams and squadrons, groups tactics and
battle strategy, pacts, guilds, etc.
Tim Mcnair
go out & get a copy of Ultima 7 & Ultima 7 part 2. They are available as
a bundle for $10 on CD!! It has civilizations, smart NPCs & not too
shabby storyline.
Ben Violette
.
>: Hi all,
>:
>: I've been away from RPGs for the longest time. The last RPGs I
>: played were Bard's Tale I, II, Dungeon Master I, the old Wizardrys,
>: and the first 3 Ultimas.
>:
>: Recently, I've returned to the RPG world and have been searching
>: for a good RPG to play, and have discovered (after looking at Stonekeep,
>: Betrayal at Krondor, and Anvil of Dawn) that RPGs have NOT evolved
>: as much as other genres (ie - strategy, action, sim).
>:
>: I was looking for the rare, revolutionary game that takes the entire
>: industry a step forward (games like Dungeon Master was to RPGs,
>Civilization
>: to strategy, DOOM to first person action, etc.) but have not found
>: anything in the world of RPGs.
>:
>: In fact, I am suprised how little RPGs have come since Dungeon Master.
>: Here I am playing Anvil of Dawn and Betrayal at Krondor, and the
>: saying to myself, "This is all that has improved in the last 7
>years????"
>:
I think RPG's reached their peak in today;s industry. Adventure games can
onyl be increased by more plot, better graphics and better sound. Actiong
ames by better graphics and sound. And Simulation games by better graphics
and sound. Rpg's always had alot of plot, and the beter graphics and sound
aren't going to change the basic elements. The only "revolutionary" games
I've seen have been possibly Arena. It got closer to Pen and paper RPG's by
providing alot of customization. Most RPG's though have been de-evolving by
going for a wider market. And this wider market are people who aren't
intereted in complicated RPG's, but more into Adventure games. So RPG's are
becoming more like adventure games with more graphics, plot, and less
statistics. Also, dungeons and buildings, which is what RPG's centered in,
have not changed. A dungeon is still a dungeon. Monsters are still monsters.
And spells are still spells. The only additions I can see made or better
NPC's, a better interface and engine, and more details. Daggerfall looks like
it will be pretty revolutionary. Also Star Trail was pretty complicated and
had alot of things that your typical Dungeon Hack games did not. Dungeon Hack
games have been overdone. So stay away from Dungeon Master 2 and such. You
might also want to look at the Ultima Underworlds. They are older but I think
they have done to Dungeon Hacking what Dungeon Master did for it years ago.
What you will probably want to wait for most is multiplayer RPG's. Ultima
On-Line and Dark Sun On-line. These will have huge worlds, and people
populating itproviding it with better enemies. Other than this or virtual
reality (which will probably still be running in dungeons, pulling switches,
and hacking monsters) I don't see how they can be improved. But with games
like Arena and Ultima On-line, things are getting closer to pen and paper
RPG's which are still the ultima role-playing games.
Quentin Timmons
In article <4o4v5a$s...@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM>, jpc...@Eng.Sun.COM (Jeff
Chou) writes:
>
> [stuff deleted]
>
> In Anvil of Dawn, I am wandering the halls of someplace hacking monsters,
> stepping on pressure plates, pushing/pulling things on walls to open
> a secret door. Come on, where's the originality? This is Dungeon Master
> all over again. There is more of a plot, but how much better is it
> than Ultima 3 for being 7 years ago?
>
>
>
>
>
Yep, I agree. I'm getting real tired of these type of games.
It's the same old step on the pressure pad, push the button on the wall
crap.
I really love spending hours and hours searching over hundreds of wall
tiles looking for them buttons...what fun!
I see some hope though. Diablo,Shadow over Riva, and Fallout all
look promising. Hopefully one will turn out to be awesome.
Quentin
BlackMage Dragon
Jeff Chou wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I've been away from RPGs for the longest time. The last RPGs I
> played were Bard's Tale I, II, Dungeon Master I, the old Wizardrys,
> and the first 3 Ultimas.
>
> Recently, I've returned to the RPG world and have been searching
> for a good RPG to play, and have discovered (after looking at Stonekeep,
> Betrayal at Krondor, and Anvil of Dawn) that RPGs have NOT evolved
> as much as other genres (ie - strategy, action, sim).
>
> I was looking for the rare, revolutionary game that takes the entire
> industry a step forward (games like Dungeon Master was to RPGs, Civilization
> to strategy, DOOM to first person action, etc.) but have not found
> anything in the world of RPGs.
>
> In fact, I am suprised how little RPGs have come since Dungeon Master.
> Here I am playing Anvil of Dawn and Betrayal at Krondor, and the
> saying to myself, "This is all that has improved in the last 7 years????"
>
> There are NPCs that talk to you, though with a fixed piece of dialogue.
> But in the end, nothing really new (conceptually or graphically).
>
> stepping on pressure plates, pushing/pulling things on walls to open
> a secret door. Come on, where's the originality? This is Dungeon Master
> all over again. There is more of a plot, but how much better is it
> than Ultima 3 for being 7 years ago?
>
> Anvil of Dawn. But, I am just disappointed at how little RPGs have
> evolved.
>
> To be honest, I don't know what I am looking for that is new. That's
> why I am not an RPG game designer. I am a consumer. And I am waiting
> for that revolutionary step!
>
> I guess I have to continue to wait...
>
> Flame away if you please....
>
have you tried U4-U8, I liked them all and you are able to see the
evolution of RPG gaming while stepping up each time. The Worlds of
Ultima games were great too, though I haven't finished either one.
Also try Wiz7 and the Realms of Arkania Series. (only my opinions) :-|
--
Blackmage Dragon *Line of Least resistance, lead me on... (the O'Kanes)
-===UDIC===- *Enjoy life, and laugh at everything it throws at
Vincent Nix *you. You may then rightfully and Honorably
HR Mgr *laugh at death. (me, unless someone proves otherwise)
Oxford Wire &
Cable Services, Inc.
Oxford, MS
Wheely
land...@tao.sosc.osshe.edu (James Landes) wrote:
>Many of are just like you, waiting for that next great conceptual step.
>There have been some interesting and exiciting developments that could
>lead to that "revolutionary step"..
> The graphic intensive interative 3-d game engine....
> The move to a more dynamic environment as opposed to a static environment.
> The move to customize your character
> "class/characteristics/abilities/orientation"
> to suit "role playing tastes"
> The development of multi-player on-line products.
> The blending of individual control of a character with control over
>non player characters (tactical to grand tactical elements).
> I think that the "great product" may just be around the corner...all
>of the design elements are in place, but no single company is addressing
>them all.
>
> Jim Landes
Ah, excuse me, but did you overlook Arena??? That was the next step. Maybe not perfect...but light years ahead of Krondor and Anvil (which is a fine game).
Gavin Scarman
Wheely wrote:
> >: Recently, I've returned to the RPG world and have been searching
> >: for a good RPG to play, and have discovered (after looking at Stonekeep,
> >: Betrayal at Krondor, and Anvil of Dawn) that RPGs have NOT evolved
> >: as much as other genres (ie - strategy, action, sim).
> Ah, excuse me, but did you overlook Arena??? That was the next step. Maybe not perfect...but light years ahead of Krondor and Anvil (which is
a fine game).
IMO Ultima Underworld 1 & 2 are/were the next step, they are so damn
immersive that I missed many mealtimes and got in serious trouble with
the wife over my 'disappearances'. I don't find Arena anywhere near as
immersive even tho it's IMO the best thing since UU.
--
--------------------------------------------
Gavin Scarman http://hal9000.net.au/~scarman
mailto:sca...@hal9000.net.au
--------------------------------------------
LEV
Tomfoolery wrote:
->
-> I agree. I think the next big step will be home virtual reality
-> RPGames. Imagine looking around at your environment, reaching out you
-> hand and touching stuff, wielding weapons, running. Another frontier
-> will probably be artificially intelligent conversations.
->
-> On line games are going to totally revolutionize gaming. True
-> multiparty gaming will be possible with teams and squadrons, groups
-> tactics and battle strategy, pacts, guilds, etc.
->
And there will be another people, who will tell you:
I see nothing new in that Krondor2000. Well, hmmm, Virtual reality...
But this reality are much better in DOOM2000 engine.
In RPG I can see the same old sword, the same old armor suit, the same
old healing potions, the same old NPC interaction, the same plates,
the same buttons, the same old door locks, the same old chests.
Completely nothing new since Dungeon Master.
David Thompson
On Fri, 24 May 1996 22:08:18 GMT, chri...@eden.com (Christopher A.
Tew) wrote:
>jpc...@Eng.Sun.COM (Jeff Chou) wrote:
>
>>Recently, I've returned to the RPG world and have been searching
>>for a good RPG to play, and have discovered (after looking at Stonekeep,
>>Betrayal at Krondor, and Anvil of Dawn) that RPGs have NOT evolved
>>as much as other genres (ie - strategy, action, sim).
>
>The problem is that you've not really sampled enough recent CRPGs.
>Anvil and Stonekeep are both Dungeon Master rip-offs. Betrayal at
>Krondor was just great. It didn't do anything revloutionary, but it
>did everything extrememly well. It was gratifying to have good
>dialouge and a fully-fleshed-out universe for a change.
>
>You should try these CRPGs and perhaps reevaluate your opinion:
>
>Ultimas 5-7.5
>Wizadry 7
>SSI Gold Box AD&D(Pools of Radiance, etc.). These had the best combat
>system of any CRPG to date.
Agree with these recommended RPGs. I'd also add the two Ultima
Underworlds, both excellent games.
>
>Also, there are no real revolutions in the CRPG genre. It evolves
>slowly, perhaps since they're so complex. Compare BAK with Dungeon
>Master. There are great but subtle differences.
>
>
I don't think that's true of CRPGs any more than other fields. I
can't think of any revolution in wargaming...I put more hours into
Crusade in Europe than I did into anything since (1987).
The problem with CRPGs is that the field itself is almost dead.
More and more prevalent are action-adventure games which call
themselves RPGs, like Stonekeep. Even the next Wizardry is going to be
like this (Nemesis, I think it's called). I hear there's a Wiz 8 in
the works, but who knows if it will ever be made?
David Thompson
.
>
>I agree. I think the next big step will be home virtual reality RPGames.
>Imagine looking around at your environment, reaching out you hand
>and touching stuff, wielding weapons, running. Another frontier will
>probably be artificially intelligent conversations.
Hey, aren't they already doing that on Galaxy-class starships?
>
>On line games are going to totally revolutionize gaming. True multiparty
>gaming will be possible with teams and squadrons, groups tactics and
>battle strategy, pacts, guilds, etc.
>
>
Online gaming has been around as long as regular CRPGs. I don't see
where new graphical online RPGs will be able to overcome the problems
of the MUD world, which wasn't the lack of graphics but the idiots who
dominate them. Besides, MUDs are free while these new games will have
hourly rates.
William R. Brickles III
I've followed this thread and so many great RPGs are suggested. For a great
story, I like Betrayal at Krondor. I agree that it does nothing super, but it
is very fun.
I haven't played Arena but hear nothing but good about it. People seem to
like the customization. If you want a custom character, nothing comes closer
than the Realms of Arkania series. These are great games that go greatly
overlooked. Shadows Over Riva (the third of the trilogy) will be out soon so
keep an eye out.
Stonekeep is better than average but not super...
William R. Brickles III
"...and when death is far distant they all wish to die for him; but in
troubled times, when the state has need of its citizens, then he finds
but few." - Nicolo Machiavelli's The Prince
http://www.en.com/users/ctown
yoipu
On 1996 May 27 Monday, David Thompson wrote...
: >On line games are going to totally revolutionize gaming. True
multiparty
: >gaming will be possible with teams and squadrons, groups tactics and
: >battle strategy, pacts, guilds, etc.
:
: Online gaming has been around as long as regular CRPGs. I don't see
: where new graphical online RPGs will be able to overcome the problems
: of the MUD world, which wasn't the lack of graphics but the idiots who
: dominate them. Besides, MUDs are free while these new games will have
: hourly rates.
With graphics, position and alignment of party members becomes
a controllable and necessary part of group battle tactics.
fla...@interramp.com
It's more than just combat, you need a thief checking the way for traps et.al. You need
people watching behind so that you don't get surprised. It's adventuring. Each
character is a specialized tool for dungeon delving, wilderness wandering and the like.
The largest problem I see is first off people from around the world have very different
schedules ie here in California it's, lets say, 8am. in New York it's 11 am, Hawaii 3am
(i think) and in Istanbul Turkey its 9 pm yesterday. How can we guarantee that our
party is going to show up, or even be able to? Then of course there's the connectivity
issues, bandwidth's and all the other stuff.
In closing, I have seen alot of posts, articles etc about the *NEW* era of RPG's. Maybe
not everyone knows this but RPG's started as "multiplayer". Group of guys and gals get
together with the books, dice, graph paper etc, Dungeon (game) masters, adventurers and
everything else.
peace.......
Jeffrey L. Powell
: : I've been away from RPGs for the longest time. The last RPGs I
: : played were Bard's Tale I, II, Dungeon Master I, the old Wizardrys,
: : and the first 3 Ultimas.
: : Recently, I've returned to the RPG world and have been searching
: : for a good RPG to play, and have discovered (after looking at Stonekeep,
: : Betrayal at Krondor, and Anvil of Dawn) that RPGs have NOT evolved
: : as much as other genres (ie - strategy, action, sim).
: : I was looking for the rare, revolutionary game that takes the entire
: : industry a step forward (games like Dungeon Master was to RPGs, Civilization
: : to strategy, DOOM to first person action, etc.) but have not found
: : anything in the world of RPGs.
The Darksun duo were great RPG's. They were buggy, but great RPG's, all the same.
--
<no sigs, I'm trying to cut down>
karen
yoipu wrote:
>
> On 1996 May 27 Monday, David Thompson wrote...
> : >On line games are going to totally revolutionize gaming. True
> multiparty
> : >gaming will be possible with teams and squadrons, groups tactics and
> : >battle strategy, pacts, guilds, etc.
> :
> : Online gaming has been around as long as regular CRPGs. I don't see
> : where new graphical online RPGs will be able to overcome the problems
> : of the MUD world, which wasn't the lack of graphics but the idiots who
> : dominate them. Besides, MUDs are free while these new games will have
> : hourly rates.
>
> With graphics, position and alignment of party members becomes
> a controllable and necessary part of group battle tactics.
Which is fine, if I wanted to play a strategy game. Unfortunately, what
I really want is a good CRPG.
The problem is, there really aren't any these days (and even in the past
there were but few). I would have to agree with the original poster-
CRPGs have really not come very far since the days of the original
Wizardry.
What seems to pass for a "roleplaying game" in the computer game industry
is really little more than a tactical combat/strategy game. Game
designers seem to delight in taking the tired, cliched premise of "evil
overlord seeks to take over the world and must be stopped," tacking on a
few paper-thin two-dimensional NPCs, whipping up an underground
labyrinth, and calling it a roleplaying game.
[pause while I am violently ill]
Well, perhaps that is what passes as a roleplaying game for them. It did
for me, too... when I was in the sixth grade. I remember the old AD&D
(non-computer) games we used to play- every player had five characters
with attributes in the 20s and several artifacts (bequeathed upon us by
our all-too-generous DM). We would wander around in underground mazes,
which seemed to exist solely for the improbable purpose of housing a vast
and unlikely array of monsters bent on devouring our group, until we
finally managed to slay them all. At this point, our DM would reward each
character with approximately 1,000,000,000 gold pieces, ten magic items
of choice, and an immediate ascension to godhood.
Ugh.
The thing is, my tastes in non-computer roleplaying games have changed
quite a bit since I was an adolescent. I play some Vampire: The
Masquerade, a bit of Call of Cthulu, and do a lot of fantasy gaming in a
world (and game system) of my own design. My gaming group looks back and
laughs at our old childhood days when our gaming was a storyless,
hack-and-slash Monty Haul-fest.
Computer roleplaying games still are.
Granted, some CRPGs are GOOD hack-and-slash strategy games. But to be
honest, if I really want to play a game like that, X-Com does it better.
Or Heretic, if you prefer real-time 1st person. What CRPGs really lack,
for the most part, is the roleplaying part.
I mean, let's be honest- X-Com allows you to control multiple characters
(something I hate in a roleplaying game, but good enough for a tactical
combat game), equip them, fight with them. Not much NPC interaction, but
then again, the NPC interaction in most CRPGs is pretty lousy anyway.
Heretic, by the same measure, involves exploration and combat with a
character of your choice. Puzzle-solving and enough maze-wandering to
delight the biggest hack-and-slash fan. Like Dungeon Master 2, but with
more action.
I know that there are people who like games like this, and that is just
fine. I do myself, from time to time. But they really are not roleplaying
games. The ability to make a character and assign a few (mostly
combat-related) attributes does not a roleplaying game make.
A good roleplaying game needs a good setting. Please, something more than
the cliched and overused "standard European Medeival fantasy setting".
Most CRPGs do not even need to describe their setting in any depth,
because it is so generic.
A good roleplaying game needs interesting characters, which means an
interesting system of generating characters. Is it not odd that most
CRPGs use the same old AD&D-esque system of attributes? Most non-computer
roleplaying games have long since some up with more interesting ways to
define characters- methods that place emphasis on character personality
and background as well as combat statistics. Why are computer games stuck
in the 1970s?
A good roleplaying game has interesting non-player characters to interact
with. And the guy who stands behind the counter at the weapon shop and
buys the loot you have hauled out of Generic Labyrinth A does not
qualify.
A good roleplaying game has story- something which many CRPGs lack
altogether, and which most of the rest do poorly. I have seen very few
CRPGs with original and interesting storylines- Betrayal at Krondor, some
of the Ultima games (not all, by a long shot)... uhm, I seem to be
drawing a blank here. Adventure games have CRPGs beat hands down in the
story department, and usually in the character and NPC departments as
well. In fact, I tend to play adventure games more than CRPGs for this
reason- there is really more of a roleplaying experience to be had in a
game like Mission Critical or Gabriel Knight than in games like Dungeon
Master 2, Anvil of Dawn, Arena, Moria, Might and Magic... the list goes
on.
It is too bad, too. I think that a real computer roleplaying game could
would draw a big audience- especially people who do a lot of non-computer
roleplaying (many to most of these people tend to hate CRPGs, inmy
experience, for the reasons I stated). I would be the first in line to
buy it...
Regards,
Benjamin E. Sones
krf9...@uconnvm.uconn.edu
yoipu
On 1996 May 30 Thursday, fla...@interramp.com wrote...
: yoipu wrote:
: > On 1996 May 27 Monday, David Thompson wrote...
: > : >On line games are going to totally revolutionize gaming. True
: > multiparty
: > : >gaming will be possible with teams and squadrons, groups tactics
and
: > : >battle strategy, pacts, guilds, etc.
: > :
: > : Online gaming has been around as long as regular CRPGs. I don't
see
: > : where new graphical online RPGs will be able to overcome the
problems
: > : of the MUD world, which wasn't the lack of graphics but the idiots
who
: > : dominate them. Besides, MUDs are free while these new games will
have
: > : hourly rates.
: >
: > With graphics, position and alignment of party members becomes
: > a controllable and necessary part of group battle tactics.
: It's more than just combat, you need a thief checking the way for traps
et.al. You need
: people watching behind so that you don't get surprised. It's
adventuring. Each
: character is a specialized tool for dungeon delving, wilderness
wandering and the like.
: The largest problem I see is first off people from around the world have
very different
: schedules ie here in California it's, lets say, 8am. in New York it's 11
am, Hawaii 3am
: (i think) and in Istanbul Turkey its 9 pm yesterday. How can we
guarantee that our
: party is going to show up, or even be able to? Then of course there's
the connectivity
: issues, bandwidth's and all the other stuff.
Good points. I'll bet someone will figure out a way to turn this
disadvantage
into a powerful asset.:)
Noble
In article <31AF84...@eng2.uconn.edu>, kar...@eng2.uconn.edu says...
[snip]
>It is too bad, too. I think that a real computer roleplaying game could
>would draw a big audience- especially people who do a lot of non-computer
>roleplaying (many to most of these people tend to hate CRPGs, inmy
>experience, for the reasons I stated). I would be the first in line to
>buy it...
cannot mimic human intellegence in the general sense very well at all. Once
CRPG's get to where you want them, you will have to argue with your computer
to do a Web search because *it* doesn't feel like it.
I can't wait for that day!
--
Noble
n...@clark.net
Brian Rauchfuss - PCD
>A good roleplaying game has story- something which many CRPGs lack
>altogether, and which most of the rest do poorly. I have seen very few
>CRPGs with original and interesting storylines- Betrayal at Krondor, some
>of the Ultima games (not all, by a long shot)... uhm, I seem to be
>drawing a blank here. Adventure games have CRPGs beat hands down in the
>story department, and usually in the character and NPC departments as
>well. In fact, I tend to play adventure games more than CRPGs for this
There is a good reason for this. CRPG's are intended to allow the character
more freedom than Adventure games, but this makes it much more difficult to
have interesting NPCs and an in-depth story. The rule of DMing is that the
characters always do something you didn't expect. In a computer setting this
makes it very hard to prescript conversations with NPCs and reactions to
player actions.
>reason- there is really more of a roleplaying experience to be had in a
>game like Mission Critical or Gabriel Knight than in games like Dungeon
Not for me. Games like this drive me up the wall because they don't allow me
to solve the difficulties my way, but force me to follow the narrow path
the programmers thought was the thing to do. It becomes an exercise in
mind-reading and trial and error.
Brian
karen
Brian Rauchfuss - PCD wrote:
>
> In article <31AF84...@eng2.uconn.edu>, karen <kar...@eng2.uconn.edu> wrote:
>
> >altogether, and which most of the rest do poorly. I have seen very few
> >CRPGs with original and interesting storylines- Betrayal at Krondor, some
> >of the Ultima games (not all, by a long shot)... uhm, I seem to be
> >drawing a blank here. Adventure games have CRPGs beat hands down in the
> >story department, and usually in the character and NPC departments as
> >well. In fact, I tend to play adventure games more than CRPGs for this
>
> more freedom than Adventure games, but this makes it much more difficult to
> have interesting NPCs and an in-depth story. The rule of DMing is that the
> characters always do something you didn't expect. In a computer setting this
> makes it very hard to prescript conversations with NPCs and reactions to
> player actions.
>
> >game like Mission Critical or Gabriel Knight than in games like Dungeon
>
> to solve the difficulties my way, but force me to follow the narrow path
> the programmers thought was the thing to do. It becomes an exercise in
> mind-reading and trial and error.
>
> Brian
Adventure games tend to be more linear than CRPGs, but not all are. The
linearity is a problem with the medium of computer gaming more so than
the genre.
To be more specific, I agree that some CRPGs try to give the player more
of an "open-ended" game. The only problem is that in doing so, the
inherent limitations of the medium rob the game of any of its roleplaying
elements.
First off, designers try to make CRPGs longer than adventure games. If
you check out the Games Domain Review article posted a few days back,
this comparison is used to illustrate the advantage that CRPGs have over
adventure games.
This sounds good in theory, but the reality of the situation is that
CRPGs do not generally have more gameplay than adventure games- they just
have more filler. Lots of vast mazes and tons of combat make up for
almost all of the difference in play duration between the genres. If you
strip the games down to story and character interaction, most CRPGs
actually have LESS than most adventure games. Now, it is true that this
heavy story emphasis in adventure gaming often comes at the expense of
nonlinearity in gameplay, but why must all games have one extreme or the
other? Why not take the best elements from both genres- a strong emphasis
on story, but a story designed to be as nonlinear as possible? But almost
all CRPGs which do have some sort of storyline behind them do it poorly
(eternally recycling the same tired CRPG storyline which can be seen in
its most recent incarnation in games like Stonekeep and Anvil of Dawn).
Many CRPGs do not even have the pretense of a plot- Dungeon Master 1 and
2, Moria, and many others. I understand that many people like this sort
of game, and that is fine... but it is not roleplaying. A roleplaying
game is, by definition, a game in which you roleplay the part of an
alternate persona in an imaginary setting. How much roleplaying do most
people do with their party of adventurers in Moria? It is a game which
consists completely of combat and exploration/adventuring. Even CRPGs
which make an attempt at story and interesting characters are mostly
combat and adventuring. Really, computer "roleplaying game" is a
misnomer- CRPGs should be called "adventure games," and vice-versa.
A game like Gabriel Knight 2 might be extremely linear, but it does
involve roleplaying. The most roleplaying which occurs in most CRPGs is
the naming of characters and the assigning of combat attributes.
I admit that I get frustrated while playing games like Gabriel Knight
when I have to solve all of the puzzles in a specific way and order. It
can be like being forced to jump through an orderly set of hoops, and I
have often voiced this complaint on the .adventure group. But the common
CRPG solution is no better- they make the story less linear by removing
the story. While this does allow the player to do whatever she wants in
whatever order, I would hardly call it an improvement. Given the choice
between following a relatively linear storyline and wandering through a
storyless world killing things at random, I will choose the former.
I would rather not have to choose at all, though...
Ike Miller
On 24 May 1996 18:28:58 GMT, jpc...@Eng.Sun.COM (Jeff Chou) wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>I've been away from RPGs for the longest time. The last RPGs I
>played were Bard's Tale I, II, Dungeon Master I, the old Wizardrys,
>and the first 3 Ultimas.
>
>Recently, I've returned to the RPG world and have been searching
>for a good RPG to play, and have discovered (after looking at Stonekeep,
>Betrayal at Krondor, and Anvil of Dawn) that RPGs have NOT evolved
>as much as other genres (ie - strategy, action, sim).
Well, Jeff, the problem is that, as has been noted time and time
again, the larger companies are trying to appeal to the new *nintendo*
crowd to maximize their profit ratio, and forgetting about us, the
original bearers of the industry. So, here's my $2 on what commercial
RPGs are worth people's hard earned money. (in order of favorites)
1) Ultima 4-6 (IHMO, I recommend you, for Ultima IV and V, try
playing the *Apple II* or *Commodore 64* versions---the IBM PC
versions of several of the early Ultimas (most notably I and V) had
some annoying bugs...if you need more info on this, email me
at <pa...@cris.com>. Of course you'll need *emulators* :-)
You can find the *best* ApplePC emulator (ver 2.40, avoid ver 2.50b as
it has a "mockingboard" speed problem) at www.asimov.net/apple_II
(ApplePC 2.40 supports Mockingboard, which U4 and 5 did-great music!)
The Commodore 64 emulator (curr. c64s2.0a) is decent but expensive to
register. (www.seattlelab.com)..-you can find the Ultima images at
www.cling.gu.se/~cl3polof/64games, *btw avoid the 8-bit version of
Ultima 6! Commodore 64 has music support for *lots* of games, but
Ultima V music requires a Commie 128
2) Wizardry I-IV, VI, VII (I am currently playing I using Apple
emulator (never played it during the good old days<g>)
3) Bard's Tale I and III (use Commodore emulator for this one...the
music is decent and it beats PC speaker music!)- avoid BT 2 !!!!!!!
4) Wasteland - one of the best games ever made!
5) Ultima Underworld I and II (the games that started the 3d
revolution, these gems cost $10 together and are very immersive)
6) Betrayal at Krondor (A GREAT storyline, but plays kinda like an
adventure game with combat...)
7) *DAGGERFALL* ***hahaha*** I bet that got someone's attention!
maybe it'll be released before 2001? (with bugs?)
8) *Diablo* look out for this one! It should kick butox
9) Might & Magic I (A classic, great game but I died too much...)
10) The Magic Candle I (haven't played it...have MCII though, but
I've heard great things about I)
Okay, so you've played all of these (except for *xxx*) well, until the
new RPG flood comes, we must be content with the many excellent
shareware titles like Yendorian Tales (which ranks up there with
the old classics)
BTW: DISCLAIMER! There is *nothing* wrong with playing the Apple II or
C64 versions of the classic games! There is nothing wrong with
copying or distributing these formats, because there is no longer a
market for them! (when's the last time you saw a C64 or Apple II game
retail?) Just don't distribute the PC versions <g> If someone
doesn't believe me, then why are there web sites with intensive
archives of classic 8-bitters? (and ftp sites with more?)
cheerio...
Ike Miller (aka Antos Dragon)
--==(UDIC)==--
LEV
karen wrote:
->
-> A game like Gabriel Knight 2 might be extremely linear, but it does
-> involve roleplaying. The most roleplaying which occurs in most CRPGs
-> is the naming of characters and the assigning of combat attributes.
->
If I unserstand you
you can name EVERY game roleplaying. DOOM, for example.
You play a role of bloody guy, saving universe. Or Monkey Island 2,
you play a role of dumb baby. Yes, yes, this roles are very colourful,
unique and interesting. But no one calls it roleplay. Why?
Try Wizardry VII or Worlds Of Xeen and maybe you'll see.
You'll see that having party of Mighty Fighters or party of Powerful
Mages is no good. You'll need to have a thief! You'll need to have
a healer. You'll see - there are no supermen with all high skills.
There are ordinary people with pair of good high skills.
You raise skills - you advance in game. Can't you kill a dragon?
Very well, there are tons of ways to improve your characters and
smash this puppy to the ash. Instead of finding and using a 'killing
only this dragon thing' in adventure game.
matthew b charlap apmt stnt
In article <31B4DA...@eng2.uconn.edu>,
karen <kar...@eng2.uconn.edu> wrote:
>on story, but a story designed to be as nonlinear as possible? But almost
>all CRPGs which do have some sort of storyline behind them do it poorly
>(eternally recycling the same tired CRPG storyline which can be seen in
>its most recent incarnation in games like Stonekeep and Anvil of Dawn).
>combat and adventuring. Really, computer "roleplaying game" is a
>misnomer- CRPGs should be called "adventure games," and vice-versa.
>A game like Gabriel Knight 2 might be extremely linear, but it does
>involve roleplaying. The most roleplaying which occurs in most CRPGs is
Well, I agree with most of what you said (even though I removed most of
it here) A few notable CRPGs:
Wizardry 7- although it does have the "failing" of lots of combat (I think
that they have too many random encounters) This one has a definite amount
of everything you want. The story is mostly non-linear: there is a "best"
or "easiest" way to complete it, but you don't have to. For instance, not
knowing how to get the boat, I SWAM across the ocean. Yeah, it took a lot
of work to not drown, but it worked! Character decisions affect the game:
when you meet NPCs, their actions are modified by who you have met before,
and how you treated them.
Might and Magic (3 and on):
these games have finite monsters- a big plus IMHO. you don't have the
endless filler battles. once you kill a monster, it STAYS DEAD! There
are enough puzzles to keep it from being a hack&slash exclusively. Although
party decisions are limited in their affect on the game, so this does
remove a lot of the role-playing aspect. THe biggest thing your actions
determine is which alignment prevails in MM3, which doesn't REALLY affect the
outcome of the game.
--Matthew
PS: Regardless of how you classify the games, these games are definite
must haves for the adventure/rpg gamer (whichever these should be... :-)
karen
I think you missed my point entirely. I do NOT think that games such as
Doom or Monkey Island are roleplaying games. I DO think that most CRPGs
have more in common with Doom than they do with actual roleplaying.
Yes, yes, I understand that most CRPGs allow you to make a party of
characters, and that you may need to have different characters with
varying skills to successfully meet any challenges which might await.
That is fine, but how is it roleplaying? XCom and Warcraft offer the same
sort of gameplay- are they roleplaying games?
When you play Worlds of Xeen or Wizardry VII (and I have played both, to
some extent), how much thought do you really put into your characters? Do
they have personalities? Backgrounds? Names, even? And if they didn't,
would it have any effect on gameplay? No, no, and no. You could easily
name your characters "Fighter #1, Mage #1, Thief #1," etc, and it would
have no effect on the game itself because the gameplay has nothing to do
with the characters in any sense other than a strategic one.
Really, CRPGs are mostly about combat and exploration. Just like Doom.
There is no story, no character developement (and by "character
developement" I do not mean getting enough XPs to pump your combat stats
up another notch), no real "roleplaying" at all- just a bit of strategy
and tactics.
And no, I would not even call games like Gabriel Knight "roleplaying
games," though I still feel that such games offer more of a roleplaying
experience than CRPGs do. They still lack one thing- the ability to
actually make decisions in character. Nonlinearity, at least to some
extent. Following a prewritten story is not enough- you have to be able
to make judgement calls, to play your character how you want to, rather
than following a set path of "correct" decisions. Adventure games do not
let you do this, for the most part, but at least they have SOME
roleplaying aspects to them. Most CRPGs have none.
LEV
There is nothing to discuss. I don't want to discuss any further,
at least. One thought though:
Most of people think that Gabriel Knight 2 is a adventure game,
but Stonekeep (for example) is RPG game. Personally, I don't care,
if RPG games will be called adventure games and adventure games will be
called RPG, but I know for sure there will be a big mess and
misunderstanding and nothing positive.
karen wrote:
->
-> LEV wrote:
-> >
-> > karen wrote:
-> > ->
-> > -> A game like Gabriel Knight 2 might be extremely linear, but it ->
-> does
-> > -> involve roleplaying. The most roleplaying which occurs in most ->
CRPGs
-> > -> is the naming of characters and the assigning of combat ->
attributes.
-> > ->
-> >
-> > If I unserstand you
-> > you can name EVERY game roleplaying. DOOM, for example.
-> > You play a role of bloody guy, saving universe. Or Monkey Island 2,
-> > you play a role of dumb baby. Yes, yes, this roles are very ->
colourful,
-> > unique and interesting. But no one calls it roleplay. Why?
-> >
-> > Try Wizardry VII or Worlds Of Xeen and maybe you'll see.
-> > You'll see that having party of Mighty Fighters or party of Powerful
-> > Mages is no good. You'll need to have a thief! You'll need to have
-> > a healer. You'll see - there are no supermen with all high skills.
-> > There are ordinary people with pair of good high skills.
-> > You raise skills - you advance in game. Can't you kill a dragon?
-> > Very well, there are tons of ways to improve your characters and
-> > smash this puppy to the ash. Instead of finding and using a 'killing
-> > only this dragon thing' in adventure game.
->
-> I think you missed my point entirely. I do NOT think that games such
-> as
-> Doom or Monkey Island are roleplaying games. I DO think that most ->
CRPGs
-> have more in common with Doom than they do with actual roleplaying.
-> Yes, yes, I understand that most CRPGs allow you to make a party of
-> characters, and that you may need to have different characters with
-> varying skills to successfully meet any challenges which might await.
-> That is fine, but how is it roleplaying? XCom and Warcraft offer the
-> same
-> sort of gameplay- are they roleplaying games?
-> When you play Worlds of Xeen or Wizardry VII (and I have played both,
-> to
-> some extent), how much thought do you really put into your characters?
-> Do
-> they have personalities? Backgrounds? Names, even? And if they didn't,
-> would it have any effect on gameplay? No, no, and no. You could easily
-> name your characters "Fighter #1, Mage #1, Thief #1," etc, and it
->would
-> have no effect on the game itself because the gameplay has nothing to
-> do
-> with the characters in any sense other than a strategic one.
-> Really, CRPGs are mostly about combat and exploration. Just like Doom.
-> There is no story, no character developement (and by "character
-> developement" I do not mean getting enough XPs to pump your combat ->
stats
-> up another notch), no real "roleplaying" at all- just a bit of ->
strategy
-> and tactics.
-> And no, I would not even call games like Gabriel Knight "roleplaying
-> games," though I still feel that such games offer more of a ->
roleplaying
-> experience than CRPGs do. They still lack one thing- the ability to
-> actually make decisions in character. Nonlinearity, at least to some
-> extent. Following a prewritten story is not enough- you have to be ->
able
-> to make judgement calls, to play your character how you want to, ->
rather
-> than following a set path of "correct" decisions. Adventure games do
-> not
-> let you do this, for the most part, but at least they have SOME
-> roleplaying aspects to them. Most CRPGs have none.
->
Donn Schaefer
On Fri, 7 Jun 1996, Sidath Jayawardena wrote:
> Most CRPGs seem to have managed the math stuff: the stats are well kept
> and the fights are taken care of. But a bloody spreadsheet could've done
> that. The characters created in CRPGs, it seems, have no idiosyncracies
> or human hang ups. These are just little data structures wandering
> around freeing up the memory used by other data structures.
<snip>
check out ROA: StarTrail. Have you ever had a fighter refuse to go
underground because he was claustrophobic? Had somebody run away because
they were afraid of undead? Somebody go beserk trying to pound down a door?
(and actually injure themselves?)
StarTrail has both posative *and* negative attributes. the dungeons are
also extremely well laid out. (Orc Peaks was my favorite dungeon)
this game has it all! including a good plot with frustrating twists.
the micromanagement aspect is time consuming- every time you gain a
level, plan on spending an hour divvying up bonus attribute and spell
points. also plan on having a good healer and being well dressed for the
outdoors. if you don't treat numskull (cold) it can get much worse. <g>
Star Trail gets 2 thumbs up from this gamer :)
Donn
Sidath Jayawardena
karen wrote:
> Adventure games do not
> let you do this, for the most part, but at least they have SOME
I must agree. After a few years playing CRPGs, a live RPG came as a
real shock to me. There was so much more interaction and almost no stats
(well, maybe 10%)
Most CRPGs seem to have managed the math stuff: the stats are well kept
and the fights are taken care of. But a bloody spreadsheet could've done
that. The characters created in CRPGs, it seems, have no idiosyncracies
or human hang ups. These are just little data structures wandering
around freeing up the memory used by other data structures.
I think, of most of the CRPGs, the Ultimas have had characters I could
care about. When Iolo died in a battle, I felt an emotion akin to grief.
In Wizardry 7, when I lost Marvin the Magician, I just went on and
created a new one. The only point at which I regretted some characters
dying was if they were high level ones. But the Ultimas have other
problems, so they aren't close to perfect.
In Monkey Island II, I felt I could assume the mindset of Guybrush. The
decisions he took were the ones I would have had I been him. And at the
end, I felt really sad. THAT is roleplaying. The stats help but the
people must feel real. Perhaps, one of the online CRPGs will do that and
then we will have a "real" CRPG. Until then, it's Lotus 123 with
graphics.
Jaliya
Ben
In article <31B89C...@hq.icb.chel.su>
LEV <l...@hq.icb.chel.su> writes:
>
>There is nothing to discuss. I don't want to discuss any further,
> at least. One thought though:
>
> Most of people think that Gabriel Knight 2 is a adventure game,
> but Stonekeep (for example) is RPG game. Personally, I don't care,
> if RPG games will be called adventure games and adventure games will be
> called RPG, but I know for sure there will be a big mess and
> misunderstanding and nothing positive.
but if you do not want to discuss the topic I will not draw it out.
I will say that the terminology is important, however- not because
it makes a lot of difference whether or not Stonekeep's box calls it
an adventure game or a roleplaying game, but for the purposes of
discussion here. A lot of people on this group have voiced that there
are not any good CRPGs out there, and many other people respond that
there are. Really, the misunderstanding stems from the fact that
they are talking about different things. People who have done all of
their gaming on a computer tend to feel that a roleplaying game is
really something like Dungeon Master 2, involving lots of combat and
strategy. People who have done a lot of "pen and paper" roleplaying
tend to feel that a CRPG should attempt to bring the experience of
roleplaying to the computer.
This does not mean that either type of game is bad, but understanding
what other people are talking about when they say things like "there
are no good roleplaying games" is important when you are trying to
follow a discussion. From my point of view, there really AREN'T any
good CRPGs. This does not mean that games like DM2 are bad, because
I do not really consider them to be roleplaying games...
Rodney R. Smith
Ike Miller wrote:
>
> On 24 May 1996 18:28:58 GMT, jpc...@Eng.Sun.COM (Jeff Chou) wrote:
> >I've been away from RPGs for the longest time. The last RPGs I
> >played were Bard's Tale I, II, Dungeon Master I, the old Wizardrys,
> >and the first 3 Ultimas.
> >
> >Recently, I've returned to the RPG world and have been searching
> >for a good RPG to play, and have discovered (after looking at
> >Stonekeep, Betrayal at Krondor, and Anvil of Dawn) that RPGs have
> > NOT evolved as much as other genres (ie - strategy, action, sim).
>
> Well, Jeff, the problem is that, as has been noted time and time
> again, the larger companies are trying to appeal to the new *nintendo*
> crowd to maximize their profit ratio, and forgetting about us, the
> original bearers of the industry. So, here's my $2 on what commercial
> RPGs are worth people's hard earned money. (in order of favorites)
>
> Okay, so you've played all of these (except for *xxx*) well, until the
> new RPG flood comes, we must be content with the many excellent
> shareware titles like Yendorian Tales (which ranks up there with
> the old classics)
>
Ike,
Thanks for the kind words.
Jeff,
If you liked the older style Ultimas (3-5) take a look at Yendorian Tales
Book I, it's similar in style, with a top down look. There is a good
story, and it's not too "dark".
For the Might & Magic side of you, try Yendorian Tales Chapter 2. It's a
continuance of the story line in Book I, but with a totally new game
engine which uses a first person perspective similar to the Might & Magic
(III, Clouds of Xeen, and Darkside).
We are relatively new on the Internet and trying to get the word out about
our games. Incidentally, these are shareware and may be downloaded from
our home page. The games are not crippled but there is a "stopper" about
25% of the way through the game. If you're still having fun at that
point, we offer registration on line with PsL for credit cards,
Compuserve, or the old standby, send us a check or money order in the
mail.
The games are now available from Lord Soth's FTP site, accessible through
this page:
http://happypuppy.com/games/lordsoth
Come visit our page soon.
The Guys at SmithWare
Mark Davenport
Without spoiling it what would you guys consider the best ending to
games? Ill throw a few, Lands of Lore, Hand of fate, Dragonlore.
Any others might suggest good games to buy for great endings?
Von Zell
In article <4pdt01$f...@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, gig...@ix.netcom.com
writes
>Without spoiling it what would you guys consider the best ending to
>games? Ill throw a few, Lands of Lore, Hand of fate, Dragonlore.
>Any others might suggest good games to buy for great endings?
I was pretty impressed with Eye Of The Beholder II's ending. I thought
the three towers (the crimson one in particular) were very well thought
out and, at the time, fiendishly hard.
Twinkster
Mark Davenport (gig...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: Without spoiling it what would you guys consider the best ending to
: games? Ill throw a few, Lands of Lore, Hand of fate, Dragonlore.
: Any others might suggest good games to buy for great endings?
Its not an rpg, but the ending to star control 2
was the best I remember ...
-Terry
Rainer Tolksdorf
Mark Davenport (gig...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: Without spoiling it what would you guys consider the best ending to
: games? Ill throw a few, Lands of Lore, Hand of fate, Dragonlore.
: Any others might suggest good games to buy for great endings?
Hi,
in my opinion, the best ending you see is that in Might & Magic 5. You
open a door and a "movie picture" starts. I think it is much better as the
ending to EOB 2.
Bye
Rainer
--
Take your body, where your mind wants to go
JohnPacer
I dunno. I always enjoyed the endings to Ultima 7 and U7 part 2. Those
were really neat. In terms of storyline endings, I loved the way Betrayal
at Krondor's was done.
Joshua J. Cantrell
Has anyone mentioned Wasteland's ending yet? I really liked Wasteland's
ending because it really didn't have an ending. :-) Although you had
destroyed the major menace, it still let you play and clean up any unfinished
business, like exploring some place you hadn't been yet. I think this would
have been nice in Ultima 7, because when I had won, I hadn't beat the Forge
of Virtue yet, so I had it saved just before I used the wand on the Blackrock
portal, and finished up the Forge of Virtue. I guess that was funny telling
the Guardian, "Hold on a bit, I need to finish the Forge of Virtue before you
can come through."
Joshua Cantrell
j...@cory.berkeley.edu
--
The most beautiful experience we can have is the mysterious. It is the
fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science.
--Albert Einstein
--
The most beautiful experience we can have is the mysterious. It is the
fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science.
--Albert Einstein
Mike Weldon
In article <iXfP4ZAC...@rhernik.demon.co.uk> Von Zell <ROB...@rhernik.demon.co.uk> writes:
>In article <4pdt01$f...@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, gig...@ix.netcom.com
>writes
>>games? Ill throw a few, Lands of Lore, Hand of fate, Dragonlore.
>>Any others might suggest good games to buy for great endings?
>
>the three towers (the crimson one in particular) were very well thought
>out and, at the time, fiendishly hard.
>
Agreed. But my favorite by far is Ultima 8.
Mike
Paul Mooser
>> Ah, excuse me, but did you overlook Arena??? That was the next step.
>> Maybe not perfect...but light years ahead of Krondor and Anvil
>>(which is a fine game).
>IMO Ultima Underworld 1 & 2 are/were the next step, they are so damn
>immersive that I missed many mealtimes and got in serious trouble with
>the wife over my 'disappearances'. I don't find Arena anywhere near as
>immersive even tho it's IMO the best thing since UU.
I agree. I bought Arena and I thought it was simple-minded and
repetitious. The character generation seemed stolen from Ultima 4,
and the game itself was tiresome. Ultima Underworld 2 was a landmark
game - when I realize that it still compares to RPG's being released
years later, I am always amazed.
I want a game that is polished graphically AND game-wise - both
qualities of the UW games. Arena was ugly, buggy, and the story
was fairly stupid, in my opinion. I can only hope Daggerfall is
much better.
-Paul
--
Dan Lastoria
The ending for the Darkside of Xeen was awesome. Clouds of Xeen was poor
though. Also, if you had both installed at once, the ending for World of
Xeen was pretty cool too. Great endings for a perfect RPG.
Dan
In a previous article, gig...@ix.netcom.com (Mark Davenport) says:
>Without spoiling it what would you guys consider the best ending to
>games? Ill throw a few, Lands of Lore, Hand of fate, Dragonlore.
>Any others might suggest good games to buy for great endings?
>
--
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// R U S H K A P P A S I G M A //
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Steelcow
gig...@ix.netcom.com(Mark Davenport) wrote:
>Without spoiling it what would you guys consider the best ending to
>games? Ill throw a few, Lands of Lore, Hand of fate, Dragonlore.
>Any others might suggest good games to buy for great endings?
Eye of the Beholder II's "Dead Dragon" scene was VERY astonishing to
the gaming world back in it's day, and is even good to replay in
present day 1996. The dragon "breathing" was magnificent.
Might & Magic : World of Xeen was very vivid! Wonderful cinematic
scenes that took you for surprise the first time you watched them - I
remember replaying the ending for Corak's Soul (Darkside) MANY times
before I had seen enough. Very colorful, fairly cinematic.
Betrayal at Krondor's ending justified beating the game; all the
events that transpired at the end brought together the characters you
built way back when you killed your first Brak'Nurr! Very storyline
detailed, but graphics could have been vastlu improved...
BEST OVERALL ENDING:
Sadly, I have never seen anything on the comp that rivals the
intricacies of Final Fantasy 3's ending! THAT was the SHIT!
Depending on how much effort you put into finding more characters for
your party, resulted in bonuses for your ending! The ending scenes
from start to finish were approximately self-running 25min! I highly
recommend this to ALL who live on EARTH! Rent a damn SNES and try it
out; if you don't have the time to spent, hell - download the FAQ
file. This game, above all others, was the ENDING OF THE GODS!
Now all they need to do is put all the superior capabilities of a comp
into a HUGE cd-rom FF title, except with more of a mature theme -
maybe aim towards Betrayal at Krondor for storyline?