DAGGERFALL - Message from Bethesda CEO
Bethesda01
specializes in putting out interactive computer demos. The
company offered to get the Daggerfall and Future Shock demos
into far wider distribution than Bethesda's normal capability.
The money paid to Bethesda would not amount to much (_.25/CD) but
the decision was made in order to better promote Daggerfall
(and Future Shock) as widely as possible.
It appears that some of the language on this company's Demo CD
is confusing enough that a small number of people who had
downloaded Bethesda's free website demo purchased this company's
store demo believing that the demos were different. They are not.
We at Bethesda apologize for the confusion and inconvenience that
these for sale store demos may have caused. There is a very limited
amount of control that we can exercise over the distribution of
these CD's. It certainly was never contemplated that people who had
otherwise acquired the original Daggerfall demo would also purchase
the CD. We understand the frustration some people may feel
and urge them to return the demo for a refund.
As far as the reasons why Bethesda has not released another demo, the
answer is simple. We are in Beta right now and do not have the time.
Daggerfall is the largest, most detailed CRPG ever created for a computer.
There are something on the order of fifty thousand people, six thousand
towns, tens of thousands of buildings, caves, dungeons, etc., etc. We
are committed to bringing the role playing community the most exciting
CRPG ever created, but the practical considerations of testing something
so large are daunting, not to mention time consuming. Every single editor
who has visited our lab has told us that Daggerfall will redefine the
entire genre.
We are making excellent progress, but the task is large and people are
already working overtime without trying to stop and create another demo.
The fact is that no one has ever attempted to bring this kind of depth
and breadth to the PC and we are blazing new trails creating the program.
So, we ask all our fans to appreciate what we are trying to accomplish
and to let us do it. Any insinuation that Bethesda is trying to make
money from selling the same demo is utter foolishness. We make no money
until the program is out on shelves and selling. So far, we have invested
over two and one half years in creating Daggerfall and still have a few
months to go. This actually works out to over FORTY person- years of
development time. Think about that level of commitment the next time
someone says something insulting and uninformed about our motives.
If we had wanted to make a quick buck, we could have changed the art,
used the same engine and just released a quick knock off of Arena over two
years ago. But we respected the role playing community more than that. Now
it
is time we receive the same courtesy.
As we at Bethesda enter into the final throes of pulling Daggerfall
together, we need your understanding and support. The work has been
grueling but the game is all coming together and looking spectacular. So,
keep the faith. At a time when the "big boys" are pulling back from
serious CRPGs because they cost so much to create, Bethesda has stayed
the course and is committed to delivering on its promise. Daggerfall
is late, but it is coming. We need to do a credible job of testing in
order to bring it out properly. Based upon everything we know at
present, it should be on the shelves by late Summer 1996. We could
have thrown out so much of the game all along the way to get it out
sooner. But we have held to our desire to bring something truly worthy
to the RPG community. We ask you to stay the course by supporting us
in that endeavor.
Sincerely,
C.S. Weaver
President, Bethesda Softworks
DLRapp
>
>Some time ago, Bethesda made a deal with a company that
>specializes in putting out interactive computer demos. The
>It appears that some of the language on this company's Demo CD
>is confusing enough that a small number of people who had
>downloaded Bethesda's free website demo purchased this company's
>store demo believing that the demos were different. They are not.
So far, so good.
>We at Bethesda apologize for the confusion and inconvenience that
>these for sale store demos may have caused. There is a very limited
>amount of control that we can exercise over the distribution of
>these CD's. It certainly was never contemplated that people who had
>otherwise acquired the original Daggerfall demo would also purchase
>the CD. We understand the frustration some people may feel and urge them
>to return the demo for a refund.
Now the note to the consumer gets off onto an area it shouldn't go. It
may be true that limited control is all they have; but it is very bad PR
to make excuses. Accept full blame and make an apology. Also, the
problem is not that people downloaded the other. The box gives a VERY
strong intimation that the Demo has features that it does not have. It
has nothing to do with whether you had the other demo. I have not seen
the online demo; but reading the box gives the impression that this one
has numerous game features. Personally glad I found out before shelling
out any money.
<snip>
>So, we ask all our fans to appreciate what we are trying to accomplish
>and to let us do it. Any insinuation that Bethesda is trying to make
>money from selling the same demo is utter foolishness. We make no money
>until the program is out on shelves and selling. So far, we have invested
>over two and one half years in creating Daggerfall and still have a few
>months to go. This actually works out to over FORTY person- years of
>development time. Think about that level of commitment the next time
>someone says something insulting and uninformed about our motives.
>If we had wanted to make a quick buck, we could have changed the art,
>used the same engine and just released a quick knock off of Arena over two
>years ago. But we respected the role playing community more than that. Now
>it is time we receive the same courtesy.
<snip>
>Sincerely,
>C.S. Weaver
>President, Bethesda Softworks
This paragraph is very unprofessional. Yes, some consumers have come on
here and complained about the handling of the demo. Yes, they have griped
about Bethesda making money off the demo CD. Yes, they have griped about
the overdue game status. That is not all that unusual for a consumer.
Also, it hasn't been all that strong of language in the complaints. It's
been really pretty mild. What is almost beyond belief is the fact that
the president of the company would come on the group with a post that
berates these consumers for airing their complaints, and does it with
terms such as "utter foolishness", "insulting" and "uninformed". A
company may think these things, may even be somewhat correct in their
beliefs; but you never, ever berate the consumer in this manner. You
can't let your personal emotions get in the way of good business. Take
out two paragraphs and one or two statements and you have a good memo to
the public. With them in, you have a potential public relations
nightmare; especially with all the aggravation the gaming community has
developed over the delays. Very bad move. The PR department should be
allowed to screen all public statements.
GERBRAND . POSTER
received. Good luck with Daggerfall. Like everyone on this newsgroup and
I am sure everyone at your company, I look forward to its release.
Sincerely,
Gary Poster
Franc Kaos
<Saving Bandwidth>
>Sincerely,
>C.S. Weaver
>President, Bethesda Softworks
Well Bethesda, Here's one fan (and I'm not even a 'real' RPGer, just
someone who loved Arena). But look at the market, there's beat'em ups,
blast fests, racing, adventure, so called horror and mystery stories,
and war games; and then Origin, you guys and a couple of German
companies trying to do justice to role playing. I am someone who finds
good graphics justified, as well as an involving/evolving storyline. I
don't think I'd be moved by a couple of X's attacking an O or
whatever, so do what ID say, the game will be out when it's ready and
not before. Here's one dude still waiting with bated breath for the
day of it's release...
A toast to you and all future heroes of Tamriel.
* * * * * * * * * * *
Franc Kaos
Nothing is true, everything is permissable
-------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Glenn
<snip>
> As far as the reasons why Bethesda has not released another demo, the
> answer is simple. We are in Beta right now and do not have the time.
No problem. I understand completely, and I'm sure most everyone agrees.
> Daggerfall is the largest, most detailed CRPG ever created for a computer.
> There are something on the order of fifty thousand people, six thousand
> towns, tens of thousands of buildings, caves, dungeons, etc., etc. We
> are committed to bringing the role playing community the most exciting
> CRPG ever created, but the practical considerations of testing something
> so large are daunting, not to mention time consuming. Every single editor
> who has visited our lab has told us that Daggerfall will redefine the
> entire genre.
Totally believable. From what I've seen, heard, and played of Daggerfall I see this
game as easily the best CRPG ever! and a major advancement in Computer Entertainment as
a whole.
>
> We are making excellent progress, but the task is large and people are
> already working overtime without trying to stop and create another demo.
> The fact is that no one has ever attempted to bring this kind of depth
> and breadth to the PC and we are blazing new trails creating the program.
> So, we ask all our fans to appreciate what we are trying to accomplish
> and to let us do it. Any insinuation that Bethesda is trying to make
> money from selling the same demo is utter foolishness. We make no money
> until the program is out on shelves and selling. So far, we have invested
> over two and one half years in creating Daggerfall and still have a few
> months to go. This actually works out to over FORTY person- years of
> development time. Think about that level of commitment the next time
> someone says something insulting and uninformed about our motives.
> If we had wanted to make a quick buck, we could have changed the art,
> used the same engine and just released a quick knock off of Arena over two
> years ago. But we respected the role playing community more than that. Now
> it
> is time we receive the same courtesy.
Exactly. The relationship between a company and its comsumers should be like a
friendship. Too many people have been mud slinging in this newsgroup. I'm sick of it.
What good is it to gripe, and critisize. The game isn't even out yet and people are
talking about how much they're going to hate it. They'll be shutting up when the game
comes out. I have an unlimited amount of respect for Bethesda due to their excellent
game, Arena, and their determination to push Daggerfall to the limits and make it the
best possible CRPG they can.
>
> As we at Bethesda enter into the final throes of pulling Daggerfall
> together, we need your understanding and support. The work has been
> grueling but the game is all coming together and looking spectacular. So,
> keep the faith. At a time when the "big boys" are pulling back from
> serious CRPGs because they cost so much to create, Bethesda has stayed
> the course and is committed to delivering on its promise. Daggerfall
> is late, but it is coming. We need to do a credible job of testing in
> order to bring it out properly. Based upon everything we know at
> present, it should be on the shelves by late Summer 1996. We could
> have thrown out so much of the game all along the way to get it out
> sooner. But we have held to our desire to bring something truly worthy
> to the RPG community. We ask you to stay the course by supporting us
> in that endeavor.
>
> Sincerely,
> C.S. Weaver
> President, Bethesda Softworks
I greatly appreciate your concern for Daggerfall fans, and thank you for informing us.
You have my full support,
Eric Glenn
Nick Vekin
dan....@stpete.honeywell.com says...
So, we ask all our fans to appreciate what we are trying to accomplish
and to let us do it. Any insinuation that Bethesda is trying to make
money from selling the same demo is utter foolishness. We make no money
until the program is out on shelves and selling. So far, we have invested
over two and one half years in creating Daggerfall and still have a few
months to go. This actually works out to over FORTY person- years of
development time. Think about that level of commitment the next time
someone says something insulting and uninformed about our motives.
If we had wanted to make a quick buck, we could have changed the art,
used the same engine and just released a quick knock off of Arena over two
years ago. But we respected the role playing community more than that. Now
it is time we receive the same courtesy.
>>Sincerely,
>>C.S. Weaver
>>President, Bethesda Softworks
>
>This paragraph is very unprofessional.
-What is almost beyond belief is the fact that
-the president of the company would come on the group with a post that
-berates these consumers for airing their complaints, and does it with
-terms such as "utter foolishness", "insulting" and "uninformed". A
-company may think these things, may even be somewhat correct in their
-beliefs; but you never, ever berate the consumer in this manner. You
-can't let your personal emotions get in the way of good business. Take
-out two paragraphs and one or two statements and you have a good memo to
-the public. With them in, you have a potential public relations
-nightmare; especially with all the aggravation the gaming community has
-developed over the delays. Very bad move. The PR department should be
-allowed to screen all public statements.
Frankly, I am glad to see a -man- behind a company for a change, instead of the
usual mewling PR assholes...He has the balls to come on here like a man and
tell the world what he thinks instead of pussying out and having his 'ad boys'
-filter- it as you suggest. I think I have had enough PR crap for this
lifetime...take your business management lessons and hold a seminar (make some
buxxx) somewhere else.
Mag477
<esg...@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu> writes:
>Exactly. The relationship between a company and its comsumers should be
like a
>friendship. Too many people have been mud slinging in this newsgroup.
I'm sick of it.
>What good is it to gripe, and critisize. The game isn't even out yet and
people are
>talking about how much they're going to hate it. They'll be shutting up
when the game
>comes out. I have an unlimited amount of respect for Bethesda due to
their excellent
>game, Arena, and their determination to push Daggerfall to the limits and
>make it the best possible CRPG they can.
That's the nature of newsgroups. People jump on the bitching bandwagon
because
it seems like the thing to do.
However, there are people that bought the demo and won't be able to get
their money back.
Bethesda admits to the box being misleading, but offers no solution other
then to return it to where
it was purchased.
I am looking forward to the DaggerFall release, and Bethesda has my
support (I've already purchased two of their other games while waiting for
Daggerfall, and have pre-ordered Daggerfall.) but I feel the problem with
the retail demo hasn't been handled correctly. It's probably not even
Bethesdas fault but they know who is responsible. I'd like to know also.
*******************
Chris
*******************
DLRapp
>Frankly, I am glad to see a -man- behind a company for a change, instead of the
>usual mewling PR assholes...He has the balls to come on here like a man and
>tell the world what he thinks instead of pussying out and having his 'ad boys'
>-filter- it as you suggest. I think I have had enough PR crap for this
>lifetime...take your business management lessons and hold a seminar (make some
>buxxx) somewhere else.
Fine for pride and for someone who'll buy anything (probably including the
demo CD). Bottom line is still the pocketbook. Besides, since when is
whining about the meanies who didn't like getting taken being a man?
Rich Crosby
(without careful euphemisms):
Bethesda01 (bethe...@aol.com) wrote:
: Some time ago, Bethesda made a deal with a company that
: specializes in putting out interactive computer demos. The
: company offered to get the Daggerfall and Future Shock demos
: into far wider distribution than Bethesda's normal capability.
: The money paid to Bethesda would not amount to much (_.25/CD) but
: the decision was made in order to better promote Daggerfall
: (and Future Shock) as widely as possible.
Bethesda made an agreement with a national marketing company
to distribute demos. Bethesda would not receive much direct
compensation from such agreement but hoped to reap larger
profits by selling more of the final products.
: It appears that some of the language on this company's Demo CD
: is confusing enough that a small number of people who had
: downloaded Bethesda's free website demo purchased this company's
: store demo believing that the demos were different. They are not.
The national marketing company used misleading
advertisements on the demo packaging. Some people bought the
demo based on the misleading advertising and are now unhappy
that the promised features are missing.
: We at Bethesda apologize for the confusion and inconvenience that
: these for sale store demos may have caused. There is a very limited
: amount of control that we can exercise over the distribution of
: these CD's. It certainly was never contemplated that people who had
: otherwise acquired the original Daggerfall demo would also purchase
: the CD. We understand the frustration some people may feel
: and urge them to return the demo for a refund.
Bethesda is sorry that people are unhappy. Based on the agreement
with the national marketing company, Bethesda has no control over
the marketing of the demo. Bethesda accepts no responsibility
for the problem and suggests people work it out for themselves.
: As far as the reasons why Bethesda has not released another demo, the
: answer is simple. We are in Beta right now and do not have the time.
: Daggerfall is the largest, most detailed CRPG ever created for a computer.
: There are something on the order of fifty thousand people, six thousand
: towns, tens of thousands of buildings, caves, dungeons, etc., etc. We
: are committed to bringing the role playing community the most exciting
: CRPG ever created, but the practical considerations of testing something
: so large are daunting, not to mention time consuming. Every single editor
: who has visited our lab has told us that Daggerfall will redefine the
: entire genre.
Bethesda is busy. Bethesda is in the business of making
computer games, not demos.
: We are making excellent progress, but the task is large and people are
: already working overtime without trying to stop and create another demo.
: The fact is that no one has ever attempted to bring this kind of depth
: and breadth to the PC and we are blazing new trails creating the program.
: So, we ask all our fans to appreciate what we are trying to accomplish
: and to let us do it. Any insinuation that Bethesda is trying to make
: money from selling the same demo is utter foolishness. We make no money
: until the program is out on shelves and selling. So far, we have invested
: over two and one half years in creating Daggerfall and still have a few
: months to go. This actually works out to over FORTY person- years of
: development time. Think about that level of commitment the next time
: someone says something insulting and uninformed about our motives.
: If we had wanted to make a quick buck, we could have changed the art,
: used the same engine and just released a quick knock off of Arena over two
: years ago. But we respected the role playing community more than that. Now
: it
: is time we receive the same courtesy.
Bethesda does not make money by selling the same demo to the same
person twice. The purpose of demos is to get people to buy the
final product, not to make a quick buck. Bethesda will only make
a substantial profit through sales of the final product.
(No mention here of pre-payments for the game that they have
already received.) Bethesda says they are motivated by the desire
to do game players a favor rather than making money. Bethesda
wants people who think they are in the business of making money
to feel ashamed for thinking such things.
: As we at Bethesda enter into the final throes of pulling Daggerfall
: together, we need your understanding and support. The work has been
: grueling but the game is all coming together and looking spectacular. So,
: keep the faith. At a time when the "big boys" are pulling back from
: serious CRPGs because they cost so much to create, Bethesda has stayed
: the course and is committed to delivering on its promise. Daggerfall
: is late, but it is coming. We need to do a credible job of testing in
: order to bring it out properly. Based upon everything we know at
: present, it should be on the shelves by late Summer 1996. We could
: have thrown out so much of the game all along the way to get it out
: sooner. But we have held to our desire to bring something truly worthy
: to the RPG community. We ask you to stay the course by supporting us
: in that endeavor.
Bethesda is working hard on the game. Bethesda is noble because
they are making a determined effort, whereas other companies are
choosing easier tasks. The earliest possible release date is
late Summer 1996. Bethesda implies that they could have made
more money by releasing an inferior product earlier but choose
to forgo that profit in deference to the goal of delivering
a virtuous product to its customers.
: Sincerely,
: C.S. Weaver
: President, Bethesda Softworks
Possible motives at Bethesda:
Desire for profit - Bethesda may be interested in making money.
Their products are priced at what the market will bear not at a
level that would increase distribution to and accessibility by
all possible customers. They produce demos to increase sales of
their final product and prevent demands for refunds by pre-release
pre-paid orders. CEO Weaver seemed to be subordinating
this motive in favor of some other motive. Unfortunately,
CEO Weaver refused to take responsibility for the demo with
the misleading advertising and offered no remedy to victims
of their partner's actions done on behalf of and using the
name of Bethesda. Unless CEO Weaver truly feels
no responsibilty for these actions, this indicates a money-based
motive of not wanting to incur the financial obligation
of reimbursing the unhappy customers.
Desire for fame - Bethesda may be interested in ego-building
recognition. They are trying to build "the best" products
rather than the "unworthy" products everyone else is making.
They want everyone to know that they are not willing to
compromise by using inferior means. This aspect seemed to
play a big part in CEO Weaver's message, mainly through
comparisons with other "bad companies" and derided business
practices that Bethesda avoids.
Personal interest in products - Bethesda may be intensely
interested in its own products for their own sake. In this
case, making a final release of a product is unimportant.
Just working on all of the cool stuff is payoff enough.
CEO Weaver gave no indication of this motive.
Charitable interest in meeting customers' desires - Bethesda
may be interested in making sure that their customers get
exactly what they want. CEO Weaver seemed to be emphasizing
this motive; the main reason the product is being made (and
delayed) is to provide their customers with a "truly worthy"
RPG. Unfortunately, the interest in meeting customers' desires
does not appear to extend past providing the finished product -
customers who were mislead into buying the Bethesda demo
that they didn't want are brushed off and left to fend for
themselves.
Rich
Calypso
certainly responsible. The error may not have been theirs, but if they
sign away control of the demo distribution, then they must accept the
consequences.
To put it another way:
It is unprofessional for an executive to "pass the buck". The behaviour
of a licensee must be shouldered by Bethesda. That's business, and it is
also common sense. Otherwise, a company could always pass off an inferior
product by spinning it off.
It seems to me that several people like Bethesda so much, that they are
willing to overlook this mistake. I like Bethesda too, but they are wrong
here. Further, the half-apology offered by their executive earlier in
this thread wasn't terribly polite. You don't need a class in public
relations to know when a customer has been insulted.
Mag477 (mag...@aol.com) wrote:
[edit]
:
: Bethesda admits to the box being misleading, but offers no solution other
Joe Antol
>Some time ago, Bethesda made a deal with a company that
>specializes in putting out interactive computer demos. The
>company offered to get the Daggerfall and Future Shock demos
>into far wider distribution than Bethesda's normal capability.
>The money paid to Bethesda would not amount to much (_.25/CD) but
>the decision was made in order to better promote Daggerfall
>(and Future Shock) as widely as possible.
>
>It appears that some of the language on this company's Demo CD
>is confusing enough that a small number of people who had
>downloaded Bethesda's free website demo purchased this company's
>store demo believing that the demos were different. They are not.
>
>We at Bethesda apologize for the confusion and inconvenience that
>these for sale store demos may have caused. There is a very limited
>amount of control that we can exercise over the distribution of
>these CD's. It certainly was never contemplated that people who had
>otherwise acquired the original Daggerfall demo would also purchase
>the CD. We understand the frustration some people may feel
>and urge them to return the demo for a refund.
>
>As far as the reasons why Bethesda has not released another demo, the
>answer is simple. We are in Beta right now and do not have the time.
>Daggerfall is the largest, most detailed CRPG ever created for a computer.
>There are something on the order of fifty thousand people, six thousand
>towns, tens of thousands of buildings, caves, dungeons, etc., etc. We
>are committed to bringing the role playing community the most exciting
>CRPG ever created, but the practical considerations of testing something
>so large are daunting, not to mention time consuming. Every single editor
>who has visited our lab has told us that Daggerfall will redefine the
>entire genre.
>
>We are making excellent progress, but the task is large and people are
>already working overtime without trying to stop and create another demo.
>The fact is that no one has ever attempted to bring this kind of depth
>and breadth to the PC and we are blazing new trails creating the program.
>So, we ask all our fans to appreciate what we are trying to accomplish
>and to let us do it. Any insinuation that Bethesda is trying to make
>money from selling the same demo is utter foolishness. We make no money
>until the program is out on shelves and selling. So far, we have invested
>over two and one half years in creating Daggerfall and still have a few
>months to go. This actually works out to over FORTY person- years of
>development time. Think about that level of commitment the next time
>someone says something insulting and uninformed about our motives.
>If we had wanted to make a quick buck, we could have changed the art,
>used the same engine and just released a quick knock off of Arena over two
>years ago. But we respected the role playing community more than that. Now
>it
>is time we receive the same courtesy.
>
>As we at Bethesda enter into the final throes of pulling Daggerfall
>together, we need your understanding and support. The work has been
>grueling but the game is all coming together and looking spectacular. So,
>keep the faith. At a time when the "big boys" are pulling back from
>serious CRPGs because they cost so much to create, Bethesda has stayed
>the course and is committed to delivering on its promise. Daggerfall
>is late, but it is coming. We need to do a credible job of testing in
>order to bring it out properly. Based upon everything we know at
>present, it should be on the shelves by late Summer 1996. We could
>have thrown out so much of the game all along the way to get it out
>sooner. But we have held to our desire to bring something truly worthy
>to the RPG community. We ask you to stay the course by supporting us
>in that endeavor.
>
>Sincerely,
>C.S. Weaver
>President, Bethesda Softworks
Oh,
OK. <g>. And keep me on the early release program or whatever you
called it. I asked to be taken off, but never got a response, so I
assume I am still on. You know the $99 thing.
This better be good.
Joe Antol
===============================
jan...@monmouth.com
http://www.monmouth.com/~jantol
===============================
Sara/Matthew Peckham
>>these for sale store demos may have caused. There is a very limited
>>amount of control that we can exercise over the distribution of
>>these CD's. It certainly was never contemplated that people who had
>>otherwise acquired the original Daggerfall demo would also purchase
>>the CD. We understand the frustration some people may feel and urge them
>>to return the demo for a refund.
>
>may be true that limited control is all they have; but it is very bad PR
>to make excuses. Accept full blame and make an apology. Also, the
>problem is not that people downloaded the other. The box gives a VERY
>strong intimation that the Demo has features that it does not have. It
>has nothing to do with whether you had the other demo. I have not seen
>the online demo; but reading the box gives the impression that this one
>has numerous game features. Personally glad I found out before shelling
>out any money.
I disagree. Whether it is bad PR is only opinion, and I can certainly understand how
the distribution company could have more to do with what's actually advertised on these
demos than Bethesda themselves. More importantly--worse case scenario for the most
jaded user is this: CUSTOMER BUYS DEMO, REALIZES DEMO IS NOTHING MORE THAN WHAT HE/SHE
ALREADY DOWNLOADED, THEN TAKES DEMO BACK FOR AN IMMEDIATE REFUND. If you didn't get
your refund, you only have yourself to blame--not Bethesda. More importantly, there are
a lot of folks out there WITHOUT internet access who are quite happy with this demo, I'm
sure.
>This paragraph is very unprofessional. Yes, some consumers have come on
>here and complained about the handling of the demo. Yes, they have griped
>about Bethesda making money off the demo CD. Yes, they have griped
about
>the overdue game status. That is not all that unusual for a consumer.
>Also, it hasn't been all that strong of language in the complaints.
It's
>been really pretty mild. What is almost beyond belief is the fact
that
>the president of the company would come on the group with a post that
>berates these consumers for airing their complaints, and does it with
>terms such as "utter foolishness", "insulting" and "uninformed". A
>company may think these things, may even be somewhat correct in their
>beliefs; but you never, ever berate the consumer in this manner. You
>can't let your personal emotions get in the way of good business.
Take
>out two paragraphs and one or two statements and you have a good memo
to
>the public. With them in, you have a potential public relations
>nightmare; especially with all the aggravation the gaming community
has
>developed over the delays. Very bad move. The PR department should
be
>allowed to screen all public statements.
I suppose it depends on your "consumer" point of view. I certainly
didn't get the impression you did. But I suppose, if you wanted to
read it one way, you could. You can certainly read it others.
Matthew Peckham
Neostar
Hans
For a game as unbelievable as Daggerfall I'll gladly sacrifice
70 bucks for it. I'm sure most Arena fans like me would agree.
(I didnt buy the demo though ;p )
Take all the time you want, Just make sure it really gets out! ;>
Until then, I'll happily play my Arena.
-David-
lvl 28 nightblade who still break into houses every night for kicks.
Sara/Matthew Peckham
Seconds to that one. :)
Matthew Peckham
Neostar
Sara/Matthew Peckham
>Fine for pride and for someone who'll buy anything (probably including
the
>demo CD). Bottom line is still the pocketbook. Besides, since when
is
>whining about the meanies who didn't like getting taken being a man?
doesn't exist..
There's no "whining" going on in Bethesda's post--merely hard,
straight, honest prose going to the heart, inserting scalpel,
withdrawing malignancy, and sewing back up. I find it refreshing and
courteous (no, I'm afraid I didn't get around to picking up the CD as I
already had the demo with Future Shock).
Matthew Peckham
Neostar
DLRapp
>Give them a break!
>For a game as unbelievable as Daggerfall I'll gladly sacrifice
>70 bucks for it. I'm sure most Arena fans like me would agree.
>(I didnt buy the demo though ;p )
How can you say Daggerfall is great; when it's not even out? As for
Arena; again a matter of opinion. Myself, I thought it was one of the
most repetitious, mind-numbingly boring RPGs ever put on disk. I
especially loved the highly advanced combat system of swishing your
mouse as rapidly as possible until the opponent was dead.
Mark S. Wyman
.
.
.
>This paragraph is very unprofessional. Yes, some consumers have come on
>here and complained about the handling of the demo. Yes, they have griped
>about Bethesda making money off the demo CD. Yes, they have griped about
>the overdue game status. That is not all that unusual for a consumer.
>Also, it hasn't been all that strong of language in the complaints. It's
>been really pretty mild. What is almost beyond belief is the fact that
>the president of the company would come on the group with a post that
>berates these consumers for airing their complaints, and does it with
>terms such as "utter foolishness", "insulting" and "uninformed". A
>company may think these things, may even be somewhat correct in their
>beliefs; but you never, ever berate the consumer in this manner. You
>can't let your personal emotions get in the way of good business. Take
>out two paragraphs and one or two statements and you have a good memo to
>the public. With them in, you have a potential public relations
>nightmare; especially with all the aggravation the gaming community has
>developed over the delays. Very bad move. The PR department should be
>allowed to screen all public statements.
Aren't we being alittle too sensitive? Jesus, read some of Id's online
comments. They insult some types of consumers left and right like
juveniles. If you read some of the online chats you will know what
I mean.
Not that this in the same vein.
Mark
Andy
Bethesda, could someone PLEASE re-post it.
Andy
Christopher Tew
>In article <4jt05c$4...@reader2.ix.netcom.com>, fros...@ix.netcom.com(Hans ) says:
>>Give them a break!
>>For a game as unbelievable as Daggerfall I'll gladly sacrifice
>>70 bucks for it. I'm sure most Arena fans like me would agree.
>>(I didnt buy the demo though ;p )
>How can you say Daggerfall is great; when it's not even out?
Well, he *did* say that he'd spend US$70 on a game that he doesn't
believe in, which makes him a sucker, oui? ;-)
As for
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->
Enjoy my thick wad of travesty!
Christopher A. Tew (chri...@eden.com)
Abstract "Kissing my Kismet" Dragon <_>{UDIC}<_>
"In most cases, there's no art to the deadly games of sword
and knife play. Just push it in and pull it out. Repeat as necessary."
-HOL
<--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Franc Kaos
>How can you say Daggerfall is great; when it's not even out?
Assumption one would assume from the demo
> As for Arena; again a matter of opinion. Myself, I thought it was one of the
>most repetitious, mind-numbingly boring RPGs ever put on disk.
I thought it was excellent, easily on a par (and surpassing) Ultima 1
& 2 in the sheer size of the world, if not in storyline. When I felt
the repetitiveness I just switched off and did something else until
ready to reenter the world of Tamriel.
>I especially loved the highly advanced combat system of swishing your
>mouse as rapidly as possible until the opponent was dead.
So did I ;-)~ Mind you, it was a blatant ripoff of Ultima 1 & 2 which
had the same style of fighting, didn't notice many people slagging
their controls off tho'.
Eric Glenn
Just check out my page. You must have Netscape 2.0 or Internet Explorer 3.0 to get to
it by way of frames. Go to the news section, and select letter from Bethesda. Pretty
interesting, you better check it out. Later
--
--Eric Glenn--
/ http://www.ecn.uoknor.edu/~esglenn/dagger.html \
"What a long, strange trip its been..." -Grateful Dead
\ http://www.ecn.uoknor.edu/~esglenn/eric.html /
Ben
ine...@ix.netcom.com(Sara/Matthew Peckham) writes:
>I disagree. Whether it is bad PR is only opinion, and I can certainly understand how
>the distribution company could have more to do with what's actually advertised on these
>demos than Bethesda themselves. More importantly--worse case scenario for the most
>jaded user is this: CUSTOMER BUYS DEMO, REALIZES DEMO IS NOTHING MORE THAN WHAT HE/SHE
>ALREADY DOWNLOADED, THEN TAKES DEMO BACK FOR AN IMMEDIATE REFUND. If you didn't get
>your refund, you only have yourself to blame--not Bethesda. More importantly, there are
>a lot of folks out there WITHOUT internet access who are quite happy with this demo, I'm
>sure.
returns. How is this my fault?
>I suppose it depends on your "consumer" point of view. I certainly
>didn't get the impression you did. But I suppose, if you wanted to
>read it one way, you could. You can certainly read it others.
I found the letter posted by Bethesda's CEO to be insulting.
I have never questioned the potential or quality of the game itself, and
I do not remember hearing any such comments made by others who were
voicing complaints about the demo screw-up. In fact, if you will think about
it, it seems unlikely that ANYONE voicing complaints about the demo
dislikes the game- otherwise, why did they buy the demo?
But that is neither here nor there. The CEO's letter, reduced to its
basic substance, tells us that Bethesda will not be refunding any money
for the demo. It coyly implies this by urging us to return the demo to
the store from which we purchased it. Believe me, if I could, I would.
The letter explains that Bethesda received almost no money for each
demo distributed. Is this supposed to relieve Bethesda of the responsibility
of taking the falsely advertised demos back? Bethesda seems to think so.
I would submit that if Bethesda agreed to allow another company to
distribute their product without even *looking* at it first, then they
should take full responsibility for what was sent out. I am sorry that
Bethesda received little money for the demos, but frankly, that is not my
problem. What IS my problem is that I now have a demo which I was tricked
into buying through blatantly false advertising, and the company who
makes the product is not willing to give me a refund.
I found the CEO's defense of the packaging to be the most offensive of
all- "a SMALL GROUP of those customers who purchased the demo MIGHT
have found the packaging A LITTLE CONFUSING?????" Bullshit. Here is
what is printed on the box, verbatim:
"INTERACTIVE PREVIEW FEATURES:
Explore a fully contoured landscape- even travel underwater and to
alternate dimensions!!
Interact realistically with other characters, both in dialogue and action!
Involve yourself in a complex world of constantly evolving political
intrigue!
Own property, ships and crafts, participate in the politics of guilds and
other organizations and trade goods and services- even smuggle!
Customize the enhanced menu, inventory interfaces, even a unique class
of character!
Import your TES: Arena character intact into TES: Daggerfall!
Play any way that you want, as many times as you want. The multiple
beginnings and resolutions make for replayability far beyond any other
RPG ever published!"
Most of these statements are not confusing in the least- they are simply
lies.
What IS confusing is the circle on the front of the box which tells you
that there is a "Coupon inside... $10.00 off the purchase of the full
version." Actually, this is more misleading than confusing. It is not
until you get the box open that you discover that the "coupon" is only
good towards games purchased directly from Bethesda for $79.95- roughly
$30.00 more than my local software store claims they will be selling it
for. What a discount!
I am not voicing any complaints on the quality of the game. So far, I have
been very impressed. I *am* voicing a complaint in regards to the demo
which I was tricked into buying, and Bethesda's subsequent gestures to
wash their hands of the entire affair. The packaging on that demo was
packed with lies- not confusion, or vagueness- just plain old blatant
lies. I would like my money back. Period.
If Bethesda is not willing to accomodate me, then I will take whatever
further measures are necessary. I intend to file a complaint with the
Better Business Bureau this afternoon. I certainly will NOT be buying any
further products from Bethesda, no matter how good they are. And I will
pass on my dissatisfaction to as many people as I humanly can.
If you can't tell, I am quite pissed off about this entire matter.
Bethesda has done zero to assuage my anger, and I am still stuck with
a demo which I can not return. As I have mentioned before, I do not like
being taken advantage of...
Regards,
Benjamin E. Sones
krf9...@uconnvm.uconn.edu
Ben
ine...@ix.netcom.com(Sara/Matthew Peckham) writes:
>Now you guys might as well be talking about PERSON X's post that
>doesn't exist..
>There's no "whining" going on in Bethesda's post--merely hard,
>straight, honest prose going to the heart, inserting scalpel,
>withdrawing malignancy, and sewing back up. I find it refreshing and
>courteous (no, I'm afraid I didn't get around to picking up the CD as I
>already had the demo with Future Shock).
any "withdrawing of the malignancy" either. What did they do other than
say "it is not our problem, give us a break"?
Nothing.
Well, it IS their problem. It is THEIR game. If they have a problem with
their distributor, then perhaps they should deal with it. I just want
my money back. I do not think that is too unreasonable. Courtesy is nice,
but I would rather have my $10 back.
Michael Pacheco
->specializes in putting out interactive computer demos. The
->company offered to get the Daggerfall and Future Shock demos
->into far wider distribution than Bethesda's normal capability.
->The money paid to Bethesda would not amount to much (_.25/CD) but
->the decision was made in order to better promote Daggerfall
->(and Future Shock) as widely as possible.
->It appears that some of the language on this company's Demo CD
->is confusing enough that a small number of people who had
->downloaded Bethesda's free website demo purchased this company's
->store demo believing that the demos were different. They are not.
->We at Bethesda apologize for the confusion and inconvenience that
->these for sale store demos may have caused. There is a very limited
->amount of control that we can exercise over the distribution of
->these CD's. It certainly was never contemplated that people who had
->otherwise acquired the original Daggerfall demo would also purchase
->the CD. We understand the frustration some people may feel
->and urge them to return the demo for a refund.
->As far as the reasons why Bethesda has not released another demo, the
->answer is simple. We are in Beta right now and do not have the time.
->Daggerfall is the largest, most detailed CRPG ever created for a computer.
->There are something on the order of fifty thousand people, six thousand
->towns, tens of thousands of buildings, caves, dungeons, etc., etc. We
->are committed to bringing the role playing community the most exciting
->CRPG ever created, but the practical considerations of testing something
->so large are daunting, not to mention time consuming. Every single editor
->who has visited our lab has told us that Daggerfall will redefine the
->entire genre.
->We are making excellent progress, but the task is large and people are
->already working overtime without trying to stop and create another demo.
->The fact is that no one has ever attempted to bring this kind of depth
->and breadth to the PC and we are blazing new trails creating the program.
->So, we ask all our fans to appreciate what we are trying to accomplish
->and to let us do it. Any insinuation that Bethesda is trying to make
->money from selling the same demo is utter foolishness. We make no money
->until the program is out on shelves and selling. So far, we have invested
->over two and one half years in creating Daggerfall and still have a few
->months to go. This actually works out to over FORTY person- years of
->development time. Think about that level of commitment the next time
->someone says something insulting and uninformed about our motives.
->If we had wanted to make a quick buck, we could have changed the art,
->used the same engine and just released a quick knock off of Arena over two
->years ago. But we respected the role playing community more than that. Now
->it
->is time we receive the same courtesy.
->As we at Bethesda enter into the final throes of pulling Daggerfall
->together, we need your understanding and support. The work has been
->grueling but the game is all coming together and looking spectacular. So,
->keep the faith. At a time when the "big boys" are pulling back from
->serious CRPGs because they cost so much to create, Bethesda has stayed
->the course and is committed to delivering on its promise. Daggerfall
->s late, but it is coming. We need to do a credible job of testing in
->order to bring it out properly. Based upon everything we know at
->present, it should be on the shelves by late Summer 1996. We could
->have thrown out so much of the game all along the way to get it out
->sooner. But we have held to our desire to bring something truly worthy
->to the RPG community. We ask you to stay the course by supporting us
->in that endeavor.
->Sincerely,
->C.S. Weaver
->President, Bethesda Softworks
Cool. Looking forward to the game. For some people, this stuff is a bit too
much like a religion. All in all, what some people dont realize is sure,
your in it for the money, we all 'work' for the $$$. But it sure helps if
you have a passion for what your trying to get that $$$ for. And I get a
sense you fine folks at Bethesda do have a commitment to what you doing.
BTW, you'll undoubtably be flamed for some of what you wrote, but after
reading some of the junk people write in this newsgroup I can see how it
might get on your nerves. They dont even realize (or care to) how rare it is
to hear from anybody from any company in this forum.
Myself and many other looking forward to the release, whenever it may be...
Mike cha...@usa.net
Dick Jarvinen
>of a licensee must be shouldered by Bethesda. That's business, and it is
>also common sense. Otherwise, a company could always pass off an inferior
>product by spinning it off.
I don't believe that Bethesda was trying to pass the buck. I think they were
trying to explain a very unfortunate situation. They at least had the
courtesy to tell us what happened. Too many times a manufacturer or company
will explain absolutely nothing, leaving us all to hang in the wind.
>It seems to me that several people like Bethesda so much, that they are
>willing to overlook this mistake. I like Bethesda too, but they are wrong
>here. Further, the half-apology offered by their executive earlier in
>this thread wasn't terribly polite. You don't need a class in public
>relations to know when a customer has been insulted.
I didn't consider their post impolite. I wasn't insulted.
All I really care about is that when Daggersfall is released, it better work
well and it better be fun.
------------------------------------------------------
jarv...@proaxis.com "T.W.I.G.T.D.T.W.Y.C.Q.M."
maintainer of the Unofficial Master of Magic Home Page
http://www.proaxis.com/~jarvinen/magic/magic.shtml
Franc Kaos
>Okay, fine. But the store from which I purchased the demo does not take
>returns. How is this my fault?
Your fault for buying from a store that does not accept returns, I
never give my money to a shop that wouldn't explicitly tell me they
accept returns.
>>I suppose it depends on your "consumer" point of view. I certainly
>>didn't get the impression you did. But I suppose, if you wanted to
>>read it one way, you could. You can certainly read it others.
Bandwidth saving
>Here is what is printed on the box, verbatim:
>
>"INTERACTIVE PREVIEW FEATURES:
>
>Explore a fully contoured landscape- even travel underwater and to
>alternate dimensions!!
>
>Interact realistically with other characters, both in dialogue and action!
>
>Involve yourself in a complex world of constantly evolving political
>intrigue!
>
>Own property, ships and crafts, participate in the politics of guilds and
>other organizations and trade goods and services- even smuggle!
>
>Customize the enhanced menu, inventory interfaces, even a unique class
>of character!
>
>Import your TES: Arena character intact into TES: Daggerfall!
>
>Play any way that you want, as many times as you want. The multiple
>beginnings and resolutions make for replayability far beyond any other
>RPG ever published!"
At last, the full text of the *misleading* blurb. Interesting, is it
not, that it graphically and OBVIOUSLY describes the full game. If I'd
bought a demo with the above options in, there'd be no necessity to
buy the actual game, since everything, bar maybe the plot, is there,
in the demo. Wish fulfillment mate, you were expecting everything
described above to be in the demo?
Bandwidth
>If you can't tell, I am quite pissed off about this entire matter.
>Bethesda has done zero to assuage my anger, and I am still stuck with
>a demo which I can not return. As I have mentioned before, I do not like
>being taken advantage of...
Above left in for fairness...
Rich Crosby
: Okay, fine. But the store from which I purchased the demo does not take
: returns. How is this my fault?
Take it back to the store and insist on a refund. The store is
responsible for selling you a fraudulent product. If they won't
take it back, they deserve to be reported to the Better Business
Bureau as much as Bethesda does.
Rich
Joe Grant Bell
>All I really care about is that when Daggersfall is released, it better work
>well and it better be fun.
One would hope... :)
Some of the biggest debacles in computer gaming history were products
that got delayed and delayed and delayed... In my experience, the best
ones are usually on time. And some of 'em, like Civilization II,
aren't pre-hyped at all - so when they game finally arrives, it's a
pleasant surprise for everyone.
I wish more companies would take the cue and wait until they had a
finished product before advertising or promoting it. This insistence
on early information and pre-release hype has transformed the computer
game industry into an industry of sneak previews, early screenshots
and demos instead of finished products. I'd much rather be pleasantly
uninformed about a forthcoming game than know every little detail ten
months before it's released, then spend that same ten months wondering
if this thing is going to come out on time, and ultimately find that
it isn't.
_______________
Joe Grant Bell |
_________________________________
Reviewer: Strategy Plus Magazine |
_________________________________
Ben
ka...@dial.pipex.com (Franc Kaos) writes:
>Your fault for buying from a store that does not accept returns, I
>never give my money to a shop that wouldn't explicitly tell me they
>accept returns.
I happened to purchase the demo from does not accept returns, Bethesda is
justified in their use of false advertising? What if they sold me a box
with nothing in it? Would that still be your stance? "Tough luck, but it
is not Bethesda's fault... if they can get away with it, it is okay for
them to cheat their customers?" That is just great.
>At last, the full text of the *misleading* blurb. Interesting, is it
>not, that it graphically and OBVIOUSLY describes the full game. If I'd
>bought a demo with the above options in, there'd be no necessity to
>buy the actual game, since everything, bar maybe the plot, is there,
>in the demo. Wish fulfillment mate, you were expecting everything
>described above to be in the demo?
but restrict the duration of play. The Stonekeep demo, for instance, had
all the features of the full game (with the exception of magic), but
only included the first two levels. Ascendancy's demo offered full game
features. Ditto for Descent. Ditto for Panzer General. Etc. Etc.
The demo distributed by Bethesda over the net is severely limited in
the game features it offers. I do not think that it is an unreasonable
assumption, on reading the Interactive Preview's box, that Bethesda has
put together a new demo which incorporates all or most of the full game's
features (with a limit on play time, no doubt). This assumption seems
even less unreasonable when you consider that Bethesda already released
their original demo in retail stores, months ago (why release the same
thing all over again?). The assumption is even LESS unreasonable when
you consider that the box *says*, in plain English, that the demo
incorporates these new features.
Most of those features are just simply not in the demo. The box says that
are. In what way is this merely "misleading," and not a lie?
As a side note, I filed a complaint with the Better Business Bureau
yesterday (http://www.bbb.org). This takes relatively little time to
do, and I would encourage anyone else who is not content to allow
Bethesda to cheat them and then turn around and say "not our problem"
to do likewise.
I still have trouble understanding why anyone would jump to Bethesda's
defense here. Gamers are usually pretty wary of being cheated by game
companies, and often complain about minor or imaginary woes. It boggles
my mind that when a company actually DOES cheat its consumers, and then
turns around and shrugs off the whole affair, everyone looks the other
way...
Ben
xho...@crl.com (Rich Crosby) writes:
>
>Ben (KRF9...@UConnVM.UConn.Edu) wrote:
>: Okay, fine. But the store from which I purchased the demo does not take
>: returns. How is this my fault?
>
>responsible for selling you a fraudulent product. If they won't
>take it back, they deserve to be reported to the Better Business
>Bureau as much as Bethesda does.
>
>Rich
game, however, feeling little need to save a receipt from a store which
does not accept returns.
Even if I had my receipt, I would press the matter with Bethesda rather
than the store. It is not the store's fault that Bethesda is pushing a
fraudulent product. Why should they lose money on it?
Eric Glenn
>
> In article <4jt0mo$n...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
> ine...@ix.netcom.com(Sara/Matthew Peckham) writes:
>
> >Now you guys might as well be talking about PERSON X's post that
> >doesn't exist..
> >There's no "whining" going on in Bethesda's post--merely hard,
> >straight, honest prose going to the heart, inserting scalpel,
> >withdrawing malignancy, and sewing back up. I find it refreshing and
> >courteous (no, I'm afraid I didn't get around to picking up the CD as I
> >already had the demo with Future Shock).
>
> There may not be any whining in their post, but I certainly did not notice
> any "withdrawing of the malignancy" either. What did they do other than
> say "it is not our problem, give us a break"?
> Nothing.
Sorry. I don't think you read the same post I did. Perhaps you need to uncross your
eyes. I read an in depth explanation, an assurance of the quality(full length), and a
request for support. I think you're a bit delirious at the moment. The fact that he
would care enough to come on this newsgroup and make a public annoncement about his
company says a lot. I have never seen a president of any company ever come onto a
newsgroup and speak out. With as good of an explanation as that, I am content until the
release of Daggerfall.
I think I speak for the majority of the people here when I say: Take your pointless
griping to another place like "alt.bitch.about.crap" or something. We don't need to
hear it.
> Well, it IS their problem. It is THEIR game. If they have a problem with
> their distributor, then perhaps they should deal with it. I just want
> my money back. I do not think that is too unreasonable. Courtesy is nice,
> but I would rather have my $10 back.
THIS IS THE FUNNIEST PART OF ALL. HAHAHAHA!!!!! IT ONLY COST YOU TEN BUCKS. YOU MADE
THAT BIG OF A DEAL AND SPENT SO MUCH TIME GRIPING ABOUT TEN BUCKS. YOU MAKE ME SICK.
THAT'S REDICULOUS. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Regards,
>
> Benjamin E. Sones
> krf9...@uconnvm.uconn.edu
--
John Edwards
->Ben (KRF9...@UConnVM.UConn.Edu) wrote:
->: Okay, fine. But the store from which I purchased the demo does not take
->: returns. How is this my fault?
->Take it back to the store and insist on a refund. The store is
->responsible for selling you a fraudulent product. If they won't
->take it back, they deserve to be reported to the Better Business
->Bureau as much as Bethesda does.
And if they still won't accept it back, call their home office.
Usually, they will be more leniant on policy to keep customers happy.
Explaine to them how misleading the demo was, and insist.
These days, the consumer hold almost all the cards.
John
Fritz get up for god's sake. Get up! They've killed Fritz. They've
killed Fritz. Those lousy stinking yellow fairies, they've killed
Fritz! Those horrible atrocity-filled vermin. Those despicable
animal warmongers. They've Killed Fritz Max - Wizards
Joe Grant Bell
>I think I speak for the majority of the people here when I say: Take your pointless
>griping to another place like "alt.bitch.about.crap" or something. We don't need to
>hear it.
>> Well, it IS their problem. It is THEIR game. If they have a problem with
>> their distributor, then perhaps they should deal with it. I just want
>> my money back. I do not think that is too unreasonable. Courtesy is nice,
>> but I would rather have my $10 back.
>THIS IS THE FUNNIEST PART OF ALL. HAHAHAHA!!!!! IT ONLY COST YOU TEN BUCKS. YOU MADE
>THAT BIG OF A DEAL AND SPENT SO MUCH TIME GRIPING ABOUT TEN BUCKS. YOU MAKE ME SICK.
>THAT'S REDICULOUS. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think there's a legitimate point to be made, and this is the
appropriate newsgroup for it. Perhaps the original post went a little
overboard in its tirade against Bethesda, but on the other hand, how
will companies learn if they never hear any complaints?
And speaking of *pointless*, I can't imagine anything more pointless
than your mindless taunting. It doesn't matter if it was ten bucks or
fifty bucks, I think it's clear from the tone of the post that this is
a matter of *principle*, not finance.
Eric Glenn
<snip>
> I think there's a legitimate point to be made, and this is the
> appropriate newsgroup for it. Perhaps the original post went a little
> overboard in its tirade against Bethesda, but on the other hand, how
> will companies learn if they never hear any complaints?
Of course. I have never said the point could not or should not be made. The fact is
the point has been made. The company has heard it. We have heard it. Over an over and
over again... The point has been made! But know it's just bitching, which isn't
getting anywhere. I understand the frustrantion, but I encourage you(anyone upset) to
take a different approach.
>
> And speaking of *pointless*, I can't imagine anything more pointless
> than your mindless taunting. It doesn't matter if it was ten bucks or
Fair enough. I apologize. The taunting was out of line.
> fifty bucks, I think it's clear from the tone of the post that this is
> a matter of *principle*, not finance.
>
If I had only spent ten dollars on it I would not be upset(my point). Obviously he is
not overly concerned with the amount of money; but rather, the fact that he gets it.
Frankly, I think he should go to where his money is at right now - The store and the
distributing company.
I also think It's clear from the tone that he has no "*principle*", otherwise he would
talk respectably to a man who expressed concern towards the consumers. I think it's
more for the sake of griping. Although, who knows...
> _______________
> Joe Grant Bell |
> _________________________________
> Reviewer: Strategy Plus Magazine |
> _________________________________
--
Joe Grant Bell
>Of course. I have never said the point could not or should not be made. The fact is
>the point has been made. The company has heard it. We have heard it. Over an over and
>over again... The point has been made! But know it's just bitching, which isn't
>getting anywhere. I understand the frustrantion, but I encourage you(anyone upset) to
>take a different approach.
Granted, after a while the thread does become pointless.
Just for the record, I never bought the demo. In fact, I would never
buy a *demo*. Sheesh, the whole concept is frightening: *buying* a
piece of advertising.
>Fair enough. I apologize. The taunting was out of line.
Hey, I have to give you credit: I don't believe I've ever seen anyone
apologize on Usenet groups - ever. It's a lot easier to just stop
posting in the thread and disappear for a while.
For that matter, most people won't even concede a point. :)
>If I had only spent ten dollars on it I would not be upset(my point). Obviously he is
>not overly concerned with the amount of money; but rather, the fact that he gets it.
>Frankly, I think he should go to where his money is at right now - The store and the
>distributing company.
I also avoid stores with no-return policies. Of course, who knows? He
might live in a place where software stores are few and far between.
Policies vary widely from location to location. And if there aren't
many software stores in the area, they might tend to have bad return
policies; when there's no competition, there's no need to cater to the
consumer.
But yes, the store should return his money. I find that most stores
are willing to give a refund even if their policy expressly states
they won't. They usually at least give you credit if you explain your
position. If they won't even do that, it's time to avoid that store at
all costs.
>I also think It's clear from the tone that he has no "*principle*", otherwise he would
>talk respectably to a man who expressed concern towards the consumers. I think it's
>more for the sake of griping. Although, who knows...
It is usually nice when a company president comes on-line and makes a
statement, but it depends on what exactly is said. My memory of the
original post is foggy, so I may be wrong about this - but if I recall
correctly, the tone of the post wasn't particularly apologetic. Not
that company presidents should be wringing their hands and groveling
on Internet newsgroups, but a simple "sorry, we screwed up" always
helps smooth things over.
The Civilization II designers did just that: they used a 3rd party
program for their Civilopedia, and it turned out to really slow down
the game. Nobody expects them to refund gamers' money because of one
slow game element, but the designers very openly admitted their
mistake. That doesn't make the Civilopedia work any faster, but
judging from the response, there are a lot of people out there now who
feel a lot better about Microprose.
Of course, all this is relative. Bethesda has been quite good about
replying to peoples' concerns about Daggerfall, and - demos aside - I
think we'd all like to see them do well with the game.
Sara/Matthew Peckham
>any "withdrawing of the malignancy" either. What did they do other than
>say "it is not our problem, give us a break"?
>Nothing.
with
>their distributor, then perhaps they should deal with it. I just want
>my money back. I do not think that is too unreasonable. Courtesy is
nice,
>but I would rather have my $10 back.
"disgruntled laboring consumers" point of view that, if the company
doesn't bend to their demands, that nothing is being done. Well, in
fact, the CEO delivered a message and a fairly bold one at that, to
this newsgroup--more than many other companies would and WILL have
done, believe me. Now this may or may not excuse them--they may or may
not have anything needing excuse anyway...a lot of that's consumer
conjecture. We can go back and forth on it all day--in your eyes, you
lost $10, period, and nothing I could say would convince you otherwise.
If it makes you feel any better, I finally got my hands on this demo
and I agree that there was definately false advertising going on. Now
the issue becomes "WHO DID IT?" Bethesda claims their distributor is
responsible for the packaging of the game and the layout, etc. In
their minds, it's the distributors fault. So there's obviously going
to be an unresolved conflict here...
Matthew Peckham
Neostar
Ben
Eric Glenn <esg...@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu> writes:
>THIS IS THE FUNNIEST PART OF ALL. HAHAHAHA!!!!! IT ONLY COST YOU TEN BUCKS. YOU MADE
>THAT BIG OF A DEAL AND SPENT SO MUCH TIME GRIPING ABOUT TEN BUCKS. YOU MAKE ME SICK.
>THAT'S REDICULOUS. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!
if you want. After all, it is just $10.
The money is not the point. The point is that they cheated me out of it,
and don't even care to acknowledge that it was wrong. Yes, it is nice
that the CEO assured us all that the full game will be of the highest
quality. Sadly, this has little bearing on the fact that they are
currently selling a fraudulent product. I find it amusing that you feel
that the fact that the CEO of a *real company* <gasp> actually deigned
to speak to *us* somehow makes up for the fact that his company is
selling this scam demo and has no intention of reimbursing any of the
people who were tricked into buying it. As I said before, he did not
*DO* anything other than deny responsibility. If you want to allow
people to take your money and then demand nothing in return other than
a snide apology, that is your business. Actually, if you really don't have
a problem with what Bethesda has done here, then maybe *you* should send
me *your* address. I have a bridge to sell you...
Ben
Eric Glenn <esg...@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu> writes:
>Frankly, I think he should go to where his money is at right now - The store and the
>distributing company.
that the store would reimburse me if I pressed the matter strongly, but
the fact of the matter is- it really is not the store's fault. I would
rather see Bethesda simply admit that they were wrong, and make good on
their mistake. That is all.
>I also think It's clear from the tone that he has no "*principle*", otherwise he would
>talk respectably to a man who expressed concern towards the consumers. I think it's
>more for the sake of griping. Although, who knows...
with a great deal of restraint. Considering that I have been getting the
runaround from Bethesda for the past three weeks, however, my patience
is wearing a tad thin. Yes, the CEO *expressed* a great deal of concern.
If he is not willing to do something as simple as accept a return on
a falsely advertised product, however, I can only assume that his
concern towards the consumers is actually pretty minimal.
If people really do not want to hear any more on this matter, then I
apologize. This is a discussion group, and I figured that as long as
people were posting on this thread, then the light was green to discuss.
I don't really know how much more there is to say on the matter, to tell
the truth. I filed my complaint and said my piece. I have passed my bad
experience on to all of my friends. This I see as my right and
responsibility as a consumer. With that, I will say no more on the
matter unless queried personally.
>> Joe Grant Bell |
>> _________________________________
>> Reviewer: Strategy Plus Magazine |
>> _________________________________
>
Franc Kaos
>I wish more companies would take the cue and wait until they had a
>finished product before advertising or promoting it. This insistence
>on early information and pre-release hype has transformed the computer
>game industry into an industry of sneak previews, early screenshots
>and demos instead of finished products. I'd much rather be pleasantly
>uninformed about a forthcoming game than know every little detail ten
>months before it's released, then spend that same ten months wondering
>if this thing is going to come out on time, and ultimately find that
>it isn't.
I live in the UK, and haven't noticed any preadvertising (oops,
Freudian mistake - pre-release) hype from Bethesda, nothing in
magazines, no boxed demo in the stores; sure, on their website, just
like any games company (except I've noticed very little in Origin on
their online Ultima game (mores the pity). Most of the Daggerfall
discussion comes from this newsgroup, with the odd little message from
Bethesda. Of course, it may be different in the US of A. The annoying
thing from my point of view, is that when it's finally released you
people will get it before us Brits, I'm still waiting for DS9:
Harbinger over here, but it's been in the games discussion for what
seems like ages. All the best...
Franc Kaos
>In article <3164f57b...@news.dial.pipex.com>
>ka...@dial.pipex.com (Franc Kaos) writes:
>
>>Your fault for buying from a store that does not accept returns,
>Only place that had the demo. What is your point?
My point is *never* give your money that has a no returns policy, if
everybody did this then those stores would have to radically rethink
their marketing stance or go out of business.
>>At last, the full text of the *misleading* blurb. Interesting, is it
>>not, that it graphically and OBVIOUSLY describes the full game.
>Most demos I have ever played incorporate all of the features of the game,
>but restrict the duration of play.
Fair enough
>The assumption is even LESS unreasonable when
>you consider that the box *says*, in plain English, that the demo
>incorporates these new features.
Bandwidth
>As a side note, I filed a complaint with the Better Business Bureau
>yesterday (http://www.bbb.org).
Bandwidth
>I still have trouble understanding why anyone would jump to Bethesda's
>defense here.
Okay, notwithstanding that I like Bethesda (intuition), everything you
said is true and you had a valid point, but weren't you in the least
suspicious? It'll be interesting to know what the better business
bureau has to say, you might post the results (I say this rather than
email to save on the me-too requests), but I'd be surprised if they
didn't say your point of reference is back to the store where you
purchased it from (quick disclaimer: UK person, so not up on US legal
stuff)... Anyway, good luck, and I guess blind devotion to anything
(even a great ;-)~ software house) can make ones assumption distorted.
Eric Glenn
>
> In article <3166EC...@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu>
> Eric Glenn <esg...@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu> writes:
>
> >Frankly, I think he should go to where his money is at right now - The store and the
> >distributing company.
>
> I would, but as I said before, it really is not about the money. I am sure
> that the store would reimburse me if I pressed the matter strongly, but
> the fact of the matter is- it really is not the store's fault. I would
> rather see Bethesda simply admit that they were wrong, and make good on
> their mistake. That is all.
I don't have any problem with that. But I do believe Bethesda has apologized. They
have admitted they were wrong, but they can't pay you with what they don't have. Yes,
sure they may have some cash (that they earned); my only concern is that if you and
everyone else must get reimbursed (exclusively) by Bethesda, it could take away from the
full game.
> >I also think It's clear from the tone that he has no "*principle*", otherwise he would
> >talk respectably to a man who expressed concern towards the consumers. I think it's
> >more for the sake of griping. Although, who knows...
>
>
> In this world of searing flames, I think that I have spoken on this matter
> with a great deal of restraint. Considering that I have been getting the
> runaround from Bethesda for the past three weeks, however, my patience
> is wearing a tad thin. Yes, the CEO *expressed* a great deal of concern.
> If he is not willing to do something as simple as accept a return on
> a falsely advertised product, however, I can only assume that his
> concern towards the consumers is actually pretty minimal.
>
> If people really do not want to hear any more on this matter, then I
> apologize. This is a discussion group, and I figured that as long as
> people were posting on this thread, then the light was green to discuss.
> I don't really know how much more there is to say on the matter, to tell
> the truth. I filed my complaint and said my piece. I have passed my bad
> experience on to all of my friends. This I see as my right and
> responsibility as a consumer. With that, I will say no more on the
> matter unless queried personally.
Whether you post or not is your prerogative. I certainly do not mean to discourage the
voicing of your opinions. I was a little upset as to the way some customers and
Bethesda were getting along. From my point of view and what I've gathered through
talking to them by email, they are a very respectable and caring company.
I think this thread has gone quite long (one of the longest I've seen - but a good one),
but it is an important issue. I may not agree, but perhaps you could keep us informed
with any results you may get from your complaint.
DLRapp
>If it makes you feel any better, I finally got my hands on this demo
>and I agree that there was definately false advertising going on. Now
>the issue becomes "WHO DID IT?" Bethesda claims their distributor is
>responsible for the packaging of the game and the layout, etc. In
>their minds, it's the distributors fault. So there's obviously going
>to be an unresolved conflict here...
>Matthew Peckham
>Neostar
It doesn't matter who did the distribution. Bethesda contracted with them'
to put it out, and should have reviewed the final product prior to it's
release. It is their game and their responsibility. In any business, the
"Prime" contractor has full responsibility for the actions of his
"subcontractors". Best thing to have done would have been for Bethesda
to acknowledge this, state they would look into it, and ask the individuals
who had a problem to contact customer service. A handful of refunds
would have been much better publicity than this thread. Also, the letter
the CEO put out was less than complimentary to the people you are now
agreeing with; as to the false advertising. He made some relatively
derogatory references to them. Rather uncalled for; especially now that
you've seen the package.
Mark S. Wyman
>In article <3164f57b...@news.dial.pipex.com>
>ka...@dial.pipex.com (Franc Kaos) writes:
>
>As a side note, I filed a complaint with the Better Business Bureau
>yesterday (http://www.bbb.org). This takes relatively little time to
>do, and I would encourage anyone else who is not content to allow
>Bethesda to cheat them and then turn around and say "not our problem"
>to do likewise.
>I still have trouble understanding why anyone would jump to Bethesda's
>defense here. Gamers are usually pretty wary of being cheated by game
>companies, and often complain about minor or imaginary woes. It boggles
>my mind that when a company actually DOES cheat its consumers, and then
>turns around and shrugs off the whole affair, everyone looks the other
>way...
Not jumping to Bethesda's defense but you should take some blame yourself
for being an ignorant buyer. Gee, was your mother the lady who spilled
coffee on her lap and sued McDonalds because it was too hot?
I would not have bought the demo until I heard on the net about its
credibility. My first assumption would have been its the same demo.
Mark
Rich Crosby
: In this world of searing flames, I think that I have spoken on this matter
: with a great deal of restraint. Considering that I have been getting the
: runaround from Bethesda for the past three weeks, however, my patience
: is wearing a tad thin. Yes, the CEO *expressed* a great deal of concern.
: If he is not willing to do something as simple as accept a return on
: a falsely advertised product, however, I can only assume that his
: concern towards the consumers is actually pretty minimal.
How does the old, tired phrase go - "Talk is cheap?" I haven't
heard any news of anybody pulling it off the shelves to fix
the false claims. All it would take is a little sticker over
"Interactive Demo Features" that said "Full Game Features Not
Included in Interactive Demo". Probably would cut into Bethesda's
$.25 profit per CD to the tune of $.05 each. Of course that would
probably cut into the sales of the demo since the main appeal is the
false claims on the box.
Rich
DLRapp
>KRF9...@UConnVM.UConn.Edu (Ben) writes:
>I would not have bought the demo until I heard on the net about its
>credibility. My first assumption would have been its the same demo.
So, if everyone waits to hear on the net, who buys the demo? What you
are saying is that a person who doesn't go only by other people's
opinion is an ignorant buyer. Can't say I agree with the idea that I
need to make my decisions in life based on what other people think.
Ben
wy...@turtle.cig.mot.com (Mark S. Wyman) writes:
>Not jumping to Bethesda's defense but you should take some blame yourself
>for being an ignorant buyer. Gee, was your mother the lady who spilled
>coffee on her lap and sued McDonalds because it was too hot?
>
>credibility. My first assumption would have been its the same demo.
If I were to go out and buy Civ2, I would not expect to find a copy
of the original Civ in the box. I do not think that such an assumption
is particularly ignorant.
And no, my mother was not the lady who spilled coffee on herself
(that was my aunt ;) ). Seriously- it is not like I am trying to
wring a million-dollar settlement out of them... I just want to return
the damn thing. Is that so unreasonable?
Hartmut Schmider
r> Take it back to the store and insist on a refund. The store is
r> responsible for selling you a fraudulent product. If they won't
r> take it back, they deserve to be reported to the Better Business
r> Bureau as much as Bethesda does.
That is questionable. It would ultimately mean that a store is
required to "check out" all its products to determine if the packaging
is consistent with the content. Not practical.
But apart from the question if anybody is able to bring this infamous
demo back, things of this kind are also a question of principle. I
did not buy this preview, but if I did, I would feel cheated. Now if
someone pulls my wallet, I'm not satisfied if that person gives me
back the money. I want the sucker labeled as what he is: a thief.
Granted that this preview disaster is not the same thing, but if
fraudulent business practises are used by a company, they bleed for
it, and they deserve to. Even if, such as in this case, a second
company did the deed. The name printed on the package would mean
nothing if it didn't imply a responsibility for the content.
Regards, Hartmut "what? no toy animals in the 'Camel' box?" Schmider
--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Hartmut Schmider, Kemisk Lab. B, DTU - 207, 2800 Lyngby, Denmark
e-mail ha...@kvant2.klb.dtu.dk
And when some man comes along, and claims a godly need,
He'll clean you out, right through your tweed. FZ
----------------------------------------------------------------
Hartmut Schmider
Ben> [...] Yes, the CEO
Ben> *expressed* a great deal of concern. If he is not willing to do
Ben> something as simple as accept a return on a falsely advertised
Ben> product, however, I can only assume that his concern towards the
Ben> consumers is actually pretty minimal.
My guess is, he can't. If he does, a few hundred people will notice.
And tell others. Who will then go off and spread the word. That has
the potential for serious financial loss. Mind you, just not doing
anything may have the same effect. But if I were him, I'd probably go
for the "to all loyal customers" stunt as well.
Ben> [...] I filed my complaint and
Ben> said my piece. I have passed my bad experience on to all of my
Ben> friends. This I see as my right and responsibility as a
Ben> consumer.
From where I am sitting, it seems that you made a rather graceful job
of it.
Regards, Hartmut "New Coke conspiracy theoretist" Schmider
Brian Rauchfuss - PCD
Franc Kaos <ka...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>dan....@stpete.honeywell.com (DLRapp) wrote:
>>I especially loved the highly advanced combat system of swishing your
>>mouse as rapidly as possible until the opponent was dead.
>So did I ;-)~ Mind you, it was a blatant ripoff of Ultima 1 & 2 which
>had the same style of fighting, didn't notice many people slagging
>their controls off tho'.
No, Ultima Underworld 1 and 2 had a different fighting style where you could
choose the strength of the blow (requiring you to wait if you wanted a stronger
blow) and the type of attack. Different attacks worked with different weapons.
The Arena/Daggerfall method just requires you to move your mouse as fast as
possible - not nearly as interesting or complicated.
Brian
Ziroc
> >and to let us do it. Any insinuation that Bethesda is trying to make
> >money from selling the same demo is utter foolishness. We make no money
> >until the program is out on shelves and selling. So far, we have invested
> >over two and one half years in creating Daggerfall and still have a few
> >months to go. This actually works out to over FORTY person- years of
> >development time. Think about that level of commitment the next time
> >someone says something insulting and uninformed about our motives.
> >If we had wanted to make a quick buck, we could have changed the art,
> >used the same engine and just released a quick knock off of Arena over two
> >years ago. But we respected the role playing community more than that. Now
> >it is time we receive the same courtesy.
>
> <snip>
>
> >Sincerely,
> >C.S. Weaver
> >President, Bethesda Softworks
>
> This paragraph is very unprofessional. Yes, some consumers have come on
> here and complained about the handling of the demo. Yes, they have griped
> about Bethesda making money off the demo CD. Yes, they have griped about
> the overdue game status. That is not all that unusual for a consumer.
> Also, it hasn't been all that strong of language in the complaints. It's
> been really pretty mild. What is almost beyond belief is the fact that
> the president of the company would come on the group with a post that
> berates these consumers for airing their complaints, and does it with
> terms such as "utter foolishness", "insulting" and "uninformed". A
> company may think these things, may even be somewhat correct in their
> beliefs; but you never, ever berate the consumer in this manner. You
> can't let your personal emotions get in the way of good business. Take
> out two paragraphs and one or two statements and you have a good memo to
> the public. With them in, you have a potential public relations
> nightmare; especially with all the aggravation the gaming community has
> developed over the delays. Very bad move. The PR department should be
> allowed to screen all public statements.
I don't know where you get off nit-picking his note to death, give it a break,
he stated that he is sorry for what ANOTHER COMPANY did, and that takes balls.
If you are so hurt by his words, don't buy his product. simple.
PS: Way to go Bethesda, keep up the good work, please ignore people like this..
ZIROC
Christopher Tew
>I don't know where you get off nit-picking his note to death, give it a break,
>he stated that he is sorry for what ANOTHER COMPANY did, and that takes balls.
>If you are so hurt by his words, don't buy his product. simple.
He was just passing the buck. Bethedsa should have reviewed the
packaging of the demo prior to the release to see if it was accurate
etc. It is Bethedsa's responsibility to make sure that their product
is represented right. If it is not, it is their fault, regardless of
who actually distributed the product.
>PS: Way to go Bethesda, keep up the good work, please ignore people like this..
Yes. Bethseda should ignore those people who will actually
constructively criticize them. They should just pay attention to the
ass-kissers and yes-men. There's a good policy. :-P
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->
Enjoy my thick wad of travesty! /^/^
Christopher A. Tew (chri...@eden.com) (';')
Abstract "Kissing my Kismet" Dragon {UDIC} / |
Bunny stolen from Wendy Cummings @__-\\
"OY! Big ears! I'm so ugly I bet people throw buns at me!?.....
Hang on! That's not right?..."
-Tank Girl (as in the comic, you wanker)
<--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian W. Albers
>I don't know where you get off nit-picking his note to death, give it a break,
>he stated that he is sorry for what ANOTHER COMPANY did, and that takes balls.
It takes more balls to make amends than to pass the buck and blame the
supplier.
>If you are so hurt by his words, don't buy his product. simple.
It's a little late, when you have to buy the product to find out that
it's falsely advertised.
Doesn't anyone else remember what a scandal Outpost was, when Sierra
went ahead and released it without finsihing it so they could cut
their losses? The patch that added them in didn't come out for more
than a year (and had problems, too). Many people still haven't
forgiven Sierra for that one.
>PS: Way to go Bethesda, keep up the good work, please ignore people like this..
OK, Ziroc. Here's a scenario for you. Since you applaud Bethesda's
efforts so much, suppose you went out and bought the finished
Daggerfall, only to find out that most of the features they advertised
weren't in the game. And Bethesda wouldn't agree to take it back.
Bet you'd be singing a different tune.
-------------------------------------------
Brian W. Albers, aka BrerBear
alb...@cs.utexas.edu
B4 f++ m r+ c+ s- g+
-------------------------------------------
Franc Kaos
>OK, Ziroc. Here's a scenario for you. Since you applaud Bethesda's
>efforts so much, suppose you went out and bought the finished
>Daggerfall, only to find out that most of the features they advertised
>weren't in the game. And Bethesda wouldn't agree to take it back.
>
>Bet you'd be singing a different tune.
I bought First Encounters - Frontier III on the day of its release. On
the day of its release I had to phone Gametek up (in the north of
England) where they agreed to send me a patch (already done on the day
of release mind you). The problem with the game (on the day of
release) was that the game crashed the machine before even loading, a
problem Gametek were obviously aware of prior to its release. After
five more not inexpensive phonecalls
* * * * * * * * * * *
Franc Kaos
Long Life, peace and respect ;-)~
-------------------------------------------------------------
Franc Kaos
>>So did I ;-)~ Mind you, it was a blatant ripoff of Ultima 1 & 2 which
>>had the same style of fighting, didn't notice many people slagging
>>their controls off tho'.
>No, Ultima Underworld 1 and 2 had a different fighting style where you could
>choose the strength of the blow
Oh yeah, apologies <G> I'd forgotten about that, letting the light get
as green as possible. Did that allow for more than one sword swing?
(like in Arena you could have a chop, thrust or side sweep), or was it
just a slash (sideways)? It's been a while...
Christopher Tew
>brau...@frx449.intel.com (Brian Rauchfuss - PCD) wrote:
>>>So did I ;-)~ Mind you, it was a blatant ripoff of Ultima 1 & 2 which
>>>had the same style of fighting, didn't notice many people slagging
>>>their controls off tho'.
>>No, Ultima Underworld 1 and 2 had a different fighting style where you could
>>choose the strength of the blow
>Oh yeah, apologies <G> I'd forgotten about that, letting the light get
>as green as possible. Did that allow for more than one sword swing?
Yeah. Slash, overhead chop, and thrust. The neat thing about the
different forms is that they work a different way with each creature.
I'm pretty sure that that isn''t the case with TES, but I didn't care
to play Arena long enough to find out.
[chop]
tsa...@netcom.com
Franc Kaos <ka...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>KRF9...@UConnVM.UConn.Edu (Ben) wrote:
>
>>In article <3164f57b...@news.dial.pipex.com>
>>ka...@dial.pipex.com (Franc Kaos) writes:
>>
>>Only place that had the demo. What is your point?
>My point is *never* give your money that has a no returns policy, if
>everybody did this then those stores would have to radically rethink
>their marketing stance or go out of business.
You forgot one option: They can _all_ decide not to accept returns, over a
huge area. Now what are you going to do... run across the country real
quick to buy from a store that does accept returns?
Where I live, no store within at least 250 miles accepts returns (and I
think only one will even give you an in-store credit). Basically, you're
left with a cardboard box, with some pictures (usually from Macs, or
something). You have no idea what you're getting, and if you have a problem
with what you end up with, tough noogies. Software is the *only* thing on
earth that you are forced to purchase blind, and have no recourse if it
doesn't work. And if your _only_ fragment of info about the product, the
box, is lying, you're completely out of luck.
--
tsa...@netcom.com
Why, just once, can't we have a hot, sexy guy for President, instead of
these godawful ugly dawgs we're forced to look at now? They're all a
bunch of lying pricks anyway, but I'd rather look at a lying hunk than a
lying, moldy, mottled, pale, baggy-skinned relic that looks long-dead.
Sean O'Brien
KRF9...@UConnVM.UConn.Edu says...>>Your fault for buying from a store that does not accept returns, I
>>never give my money to a shop that wouldn't explicitly tell me they
>>accept returns.
>
>Only place that had the demo. What is your point? Just because the store
>I happened to purchase the demo from does not accept returns, Bethesda is
>justified in their use of false advertising? What if they sold me a box
>with nothing in it? Would that still be your stance? "Tough luck, but it
>is not Bethesda's fault... if they can get away with it, it is okay for
>them to cheat their customers?" That is just great.
I would also mention that if you had enough intelligence you'd not
have bought a demo when you could just wait for the product itself.
And I might also state that I would never buy a product that
doesn't accept refunds, and if I did I would just be out of luck if
something was wrong. Unless the product doesn't work, pieces are missing
(Disc is scratched or book missing) I would consider myself just out of
luck. It was NOT a ripoff, it was just luck of the draw, and if I HAD
bought it from a place that accepted returns I could have matters
corrected.
I would think that someone might consider that the distributer of
the demo was doing the misleading, probably out of ignorance, and it was
not Bethesda's fault. Bethesda should have looked over the demo packaged
to be distributed thoroughly before oking it. (If they had much say).
I just want to show my support for Bathesda, and that most of the
flames come from less than 5% of all those which are vocal on the subject
(of which is probably less than 50% of those reading these posts). I look
forward to Daggerfall, and hope it is as good as we've made it out to be.
Regards, Sean O'Brien
Cr...@SRMC.com
Mag477
Wyman) writes:
>Not jumping to Bethesda's defense but you should take some blame yourself
>for being an ignorant buyer. Gee, was your mother the lady who spilled
>coffee on her lap and sued McDonalds because it was too hot?
>
>I would not have bought the demo until I heard on the net about its
>credibility. My first assumption would have been its the same demo.
>
>Mark
So if I go buy software, and its a poor product, I'm an ignorant buyer?
So how do you get to hear about it if people don't go out and buy it?
People need to go buy it in order to review it on this newsgroup. These
are the people that got screwed and want Bethesda to do something about
it.
*******************
Chris
*******************
Dick Jarvinen
>I still have trouble understanding why anyone would jump to Bethesda's
>defense here. Gamers are usually pretty wary of being cheated by game
>companies, and often complain about minor or imaginary woes. It boggles
>my mind that when a company actually DOES cheat its consumers, and then
>turns around and shrugs off the whole affair, everyone looks the other
>way...
>
I don't believe any reasonable person would defend any company or anyone who
'cheats' their customers. The problem here is that there is a difference of
opinion of who is at fault. Your premise is that the original supplier
(Bethesda) is responsible for everything they produce and everything any
sub-contractor they use produces for them. Others seem to think the
sub-contractor is to blame.
I'm sure there must be some legal precedent for these kinds of cases. Any
legal-types reading this posts who can offer some enlightenment?
My personal view is that the sub-contractor is 'mostly' to blame. For example,
if I contract a shipping company to send some of my products to a customer, and
the shipper completely destroys the package, am I responsible? I suspect not.
But then, I haven't studied much law so could be on real shakey ground here.
And the answer may not be so black-and-white. Perhaps a court might assess the
blame equally between Bethesda and its sub-contractor, requiring them to
equally share in the redress.
Again, the problem is not whether damage has been done. It seems clear that
some customers have gotten screwed by misrepresentation. The problem is who
should cough up the $10? The seller? The sub-contractor? Bethesda? The
answer may be clear to some, but it is certainly not clear to me.
-----------------------------------------------------
jarv...@proaxis.com "T.W.I.G.T.D.T.W.Y.C.Q.M."
knowles scott andrew
> zi...@gate.net (Ziroc) wrote:
>
> >I don't know where you get off nit-picking his note to death, give it a break,
> >he stated that he is sorry for what ANOTHER COMPANY did, and that takes balls.
>
> It takes more balls to make amends than to pass the buck and blame the
> supplier.
>
> >If you are so hurt by his words, don't buy his product. simple.
>
> It's a little late, when you have to buy the product to find out that
> it's falsely advertised.
>
> Doesn't anyone else remember what a scandal Outpost was, when Sierra
> went ahead and released it without finsihing it so they could cut
> their losses? The patch that added them in didn't come out for more
> than a year (and had problems, too). Many people still haven't
> forgiven Sierra for that one.
>
> >PS: Way to go Bethesda, keep up the good work, please ignore people like this..
>
> OK, Ziroc. Here's a scenario for you. Since you applaud Bethesda's
> efforts so much, suppose you went out and bought the finished
> Daggerfall, only to find out that most of the features they advertised
> weren't in the game. And Bethesda wouldn't agree to take it back.
>
> Bet you'd be singing a different tune.
> -------------------------------------------
> Brian W. Albers, aka BrerBear
> alb...@cs.utexas.edu
> B4 f++ m r+ c+ s- g+
> -------------------------------------------
If this is another shot about the interactive demo deal give it a break.
But if this is just a pesimistic possibility (very unlikely) that could
happen then what is the point of saying well "what if". What a waste of
time and energy to think of all the horrible things a company can do so
more people can complain. For plenty of people complaining is the only
thing that they use this newsgroup for. People find enough to whine
about with out the possible shitty things that can happen.
Scott Knowles
sakn...@students.uiuc.edu
Ben
jarv...@proaxis.com (Dick Jarvinen) writes:
>I don't believe any reasonable person would defend any company or anyone who
>'cheats' their customers. The problem here is that there is a difference of
>opinion of who is at fault. Your premise is that the original supplier
>(Bethesda) is responsible for everything they produce and everything any
>sub-contractor they use produces for them. Others seem to think the
>sub-contractor is to blame.
>
>I'm sure there must be some legal precedent for these kinds of cases. Any
>legal-types reading this posts who can offer some enlightenment?
this out again to clear things up.
I am sure that Bethesda is telling the truth when they say that the mistake
was the fault of the company they hired to distribute the product. Actually,
it is arguable that the fault is partially Bethesda's (for not reviewing
the product they were sending out with their company's name on it), but
that is neither here nor there.
My point was not that the screw-up was Behtesda's FAULT, but rather
their RESPONSIBILITY. It is their product, and regardless of where in
the production chain the screw-up ocurred, I should not be the one who
is responsible for tracking that down. I just want to return the item
for a refund. I do not care who pays for it. If Bethesda feels that
the distribution company should pay for it (since it was their
mistake), then that is fine. They can work that out with the distribution
company.
What annoyed me was the fact that Bethesda was not willing to do
anything at all. Nothing. Except to say "sorry, but the full game will
be nifty." And their apology was pretty derogatory, as well.
Even if I WERE willing to track down the individuals who were physically
responsible for the packaging (and I am not), I would have no idea where
to look. Who is this company? There is a logo reading "Lasersoft" on
the box, but no information as to how to contact them. Bethesda remains
silent on the matter as well. They did not even try to pass the buck
(which would have been annoying in and of itself)- they just did nothing.
So whose fault is it? Who cares. Whose responsibility is it? Bethesda's.
Definitely. And they continue to dodge it...
Mag477
Tew) writes:
>I'm pretty sure that that isn''t the case with TES, but I didn't care
>to play Arena long enough to find out.
Yep they do. Different swings had different chances of hitting, and did
different damage.
*******************
Chris
*******************
Mag477
from a place that won't give you your money back after you have opened the
software just because you don't like it.
Could someone please let me know of a few of these places that will
happily give you your money back on opened software?
BTW:
Best buy won't give you your money back.
CompUSA won't
Computer City won't
Circuit City won't
Egghead won't
*******************
Chris
*******************
DLRapp
A really crappy Circuit City. The one in my area will within a thirty
day period, with receipt.
Michael Kozlowski
>Quite a few folks are telling people they are idiots for buying software
>from a place that won't give you your money back after you have opened the
>software just because you don't like it.
>Could someone please let me know of a few of these places that will
>happily give you your money back on opened software?
>BTW:
>Best buy won't give you your money back.
>CompUSA won't
>Computer City won't
>Circuit City won't
>Egghead won't
Software Etc. would, last time I checked. Of course, buying from them
means you need to pay $20 extra for most games.
--
Michael Kozlowski
mlko...@students.wisc.edu
http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~kozlowsk
Sarinee Achavanuntakul
: Quite a few folks are telling people they are idiots for buying software
: from a place that won't give you your money back after you have opened the
: software just because you don't like it.
: Could someone please let me know of a few of these places that will
: happily give you your money back on opened software?
Electronics Boutique will refund your money if you return it
within 10 days of purchase, no questions asked. (You could, as I do, just
tell the truth that you hate the game). Of course, their prices are a
little higher than other places-- BUT they WILL match Egghead's price, so
just want until your local Egghead has the game too, and tell them about it.
-Sarinee
Who turned out the lights?
wrote:
I agree with Benjamin here. It is the responsibility of
Bethesda to check out their product before they send it out for
distribution. If they use a sub-contractor, then they are responsible
for that companie's work. Their contract is with that company as is
our contract (us buying from them) is with Bethesda. I shouldn't have
to deal with anyone else. If I bought a computer from Compaq and my
harddrive was messed up, I shouldn't have to deal with the Assembly
Line 5 floor manager just because that's the assembly line that puts
the harddrives in. Compaq should be responsible for anyone under them,
doing work for them. So should Bethesda.
Nhan Le
st...@jetson.uh.edu
Dan Curtis
>Could someone please let me know of a few of these places that will
>happily give you your money back on opened software?
>
>Best buy won't give you your money back.
>CompUSA won't
>Computer City won't
>Circuit City won't
>Egghead won't
>
I don't know how local these are, but Babbages has a 30 day return policy on
software, and Electronics Boutique allows returns, though I don't remember the
conditions.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dan Curtis | My company wants to make it clear that
Lockheed Martin Corp - GES | my opinions are strictly my own,
Moorestown, NJ |
dcu...@motown.mmc.com | Unless they find I'm making money on them.
Vincent M. Lee
> Could someone please let me know of a few of these places that will
> happily give you your money back on opened software?
>
> BTW:
> Best buy won't give you your money back.
> CompUSA won't
> Computer City won't
> Circuit City won't
> Egghead won't
I've been able to return for money at both Best Buy and CompUSA (even though they
say otherwise in signs around the store). I have also been able to exchange
without a receipt(Had to do this after Christmas).
Now please note that I am an adult and usually dressed well when I do exchange
items, they may give different responses if you look young as they think your
trying to pull something on them.
Vinny Lee
Ben
dan....@stpete.honeywell.com (DLRapp) writes:
>
>In article <4l33b8$4...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, mag...@aol.com (Mag477) says:
>
>>from a place that won't give you your money back after you have opened the
>>software just because you don't like it.
>
>>happily give you your money back on opened software?
>
>>BTW:
>>Best buy won't give you your money back.
>>CompUSA won't
>>Computer City won't
>>Circuit City won't
>>Egghead won't
>
>day period, with receipt.
merchandise they will only give an exchange. Opened software they
do not even want to hear about (there are ominous-looking signs posted
around the store which inform you of this...). I usually do not shop
there, for that reason.
Actually, the only store in my area which does take returns is
Electronics Boutique. They are actually pretty good about it- they will
take a game back for any reason, within ten days. I took Outpost back
and told them I just did not like it. They said "okay" and gave me my
money back...
Paulius Stepanas
>I bought First Encounters - Frontier III on the day of its release. On
>the day of its release I had to phone Gametek up (in the north of
>England) where they agreed to send me a patch (already done on the day
>of release mind you). The problem with the game (on the day of
>release) was that the game crashed the machine before even loading, a
>problem Gametek were obviously aware of prior to its release. After
>five more not inexpensive phonecalls
> Franc Kaos
I sympathise. I bought Frontier on the day of its release, and my mouse
completely failed to work with the game. Unfortunately, I couldn't
ring up Gametek to check the problem.
This happens regularly. Computer games companies seem unaware that
there exist countries other than their own, and make it impossible
for people from other countries to contact them when things go wrong.
What's more, I've sent in every registration card I've ever received
with a game, most of them requiring international postage. Yet not
once has ANY company had the good manners to reply or send me any of
the promised "benefits" of registration!
Although the availability of email addresses for tech support has
made it easier to resolve problems with games from overseas, this is
not enough. It's time games companies stopped ignoring their
international customers, or eventually they will lose them.
With any luck, someone may be listening.
Happy gaming,
Paulius
~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~ From the mind of:
~|~ Thank Disney for Lemmings! ~|~ Paulius G Stepanas
~|~ What would we do without them?! ~|~ Telstra Research Labs
~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~ p.ste...@trl.oz.au
Kay-Yut Chen
: >Could someone please let me know of a few of these places that will
: >happily give you your money back on opened software?
: >
: >BTW:
: >Best buy won't give you your money back.
: >CompUSA won't
: >Computer City won't
: >Circuit City won't
: >Egghead won't
: I don't know how local these are, but Babbages has a 30 day return policy on
: software, and Electronics Boutique allows returns, though I don't remember the
: conditions.
Also my local Software ETC have a 30 days return policy. Fry's also have
one for CD software.
--
=====================================================================
| A Traveler between dimensions | |
+ ------------------------------+ |
| |
| In the Kingdom of Drakkar, I am known as <Narius the Mentalist> |
| To the denizens of Britainnia, my name is <Seldon the Avatar> |
| The Terran Confederation pilots call me <One the Cat Slayer> |
| |
| <<Kay-Yut Chen>> |
| |
=====================================================================
Ken Harward
Paulius Stepanas <step...@newsserver.trl.oz.au> wrote:
>What's more, I've sent in every registration card I've ever received
>with a game, most of them requiring international postage. Yet not
>once has ANY company had the good manners to reply or send me any of
>the promised "benefits" of registration!
This problem exists even for "local" customers. I, too, have sent in every
single registration card I've ever recieved. Some companies that I've
bought business applications from have sent update notices (Quicken comes
to mind) but I've not heard a peep from the many game companies. I agree
that it is frustrating, particularly since they claim to keep you informed.
There was one company that did an outstanding job. Infocom. Back in their
heyday, the early 80s, they sent me a 20 page newsletter several times a
year. The newsletter had pictures, interviews, tips, upcoming releases,
and games in it. Really well done. That, combined with their creative
packaging (and good games) made Infocom an instant hit with me. I keep
waiting for a company to come along and repeat that, but it appears in this
day and age that companies cannot afford the "extras."
A shame too. I remember opening up Deadline and reading all the extra
inserts, the newspaper clippings and all that. I was exciting long before
I ever booted the game. Combined with a great game, it was a wonderful
experience. I miss stuff like that. Ditto for the one where you were
awakened from suspended animation and had to control these different robots
(with personalities so to speak) to fix things right. What was the name of
that game!?!? Anyway, my original copy came with this cool hard-plastic
map of the complex and little plastic discs of the robots. As I sent them
on their way "Iris, go to the lab. Waldo go to the closet and get the mop.
Aura, go to the stairway and listen" you'd move the little discs around to
keep track of where everyone was. I had a blast playing it.
But, back to the point, even if the company is nearby, I generally *never*
recieve any indication that the company ever got my registration. Such a
simple way for them to keep me informed too.
Ken
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ken Harward (har...@convex.hp.com)
Software Engineer I'm a pleasant robot.
Convex Technology Center of Hewlett Packard
danno
wrote:
>: mag...@aol.com (Mag477) wrote:
>: >Could someone please let me know of a few of these places that will
>: >happily give you your money back on opened software?
>: >
>: >BTW:
el snip
Electronic Boutiqie has the following policy:
return in 10 days, for any reason, full refund.
the real deal.
i usually use the reason, "this game sucks" and they always return my
money, no hassle....
++++++++++++++++++++++++
"How in the hell am I supposed to
fly this thing with only
8 megs of ram!?"
Billy Cruise
>
> In article <4l6kem$4...@newsserver.trl.OZ.AU>,
> Paulius Stepanas <step...@newsserver.trl.oz.au> wrote:
>
> >What's more, I've sent in every registration card I've ever received
> >with a game, most of them requiring international postage. Yet not
> >once has ANY company had the good manners to reply or send me any of
> >the promised "benefits" of registration!
>
> This problem exists even for "local" customers. I, too, have sent in every
> single registration card I've ever recieved. Some companies that I've
> bought business applications from have sent update notices (Quicken comes
> to mind) but I've not heard a peep from the many game companies. I agree
> that it is frustrating, particularly since they claim to keep you informed.
I was wondering if anyone else had encountered this...I've sent in every reg.
card since I started playing computer games in '83, with only a few companies
taking the time to send any sort of reply.
I'm not advocating that the companies actually flood customers with mailings
detailing every little aspect of whatever "new and wonderful" game they are
releasing, since this would take up time and resources best spent seeing that the
aforementioned killer title gets released on time. However, if the card states
that we would be notified of updates, patches, and new info, I would like to take
it at face value and expect as much. If not, then don't put it on the card!
> There was one company that did an outstanding job. Infocom. Back in their
> heyday, the early 80s, they sent me a 20 page newsletter several times a
> year. The newsletter had pictures, interviews, tips, upcoming releases,
> and games in it. Really well done. That, combined with their creative
> packaging (and good games) made Infocom an instant hit with me. I keep
> waiting for a company to come along and repeat that, but it appears in this
> day and age that companies cannot afford the "extras."
Yes, I remember that newsletter fondly. What I can't remember is what title
they adopted after having to stop using the name "The New Zork Times" because of
legal pressures from a certain large eastern city mega-newspaper. If anyone knows,
please let me know!
> A shame too. I remember opening up Deadline and reading all the extra
> inserts, the newspaper clippings and all that. I was exciting long before
> I ever booted the game. Combined with a great game, it was a wonderful
> experience. I miss stuff like that. Ditto for the one where you were
> awakened from suspended animation and had to control these different robots
> (with personalities so to speak) to fix things right. What was the name of
> that game!?!?
Suspended, absolutely great game, with a depth and difficulty level that
would put today's hardest games to shame. Also, remember that eerily lifeless face
that stared out at you from the box cover?
> Anyway, my original copy came with this cool hard-plastic
> map of the complex and little plastic discs of the robots. As I sent them
> on their way "Iris, go to the lab. Waldo go to the closet and get the mop.
> Aura, go to the stairway and listen" you'd move the little discs around to
> keep track of where everyone was. I had a blast playing it.
The possibities in that games were endless. I guess that's what made the
thing so difficult! I read somewhere recently that it still ranks as INFOCOM's
toughest game.
Regarding the knick-knacks, I still have the Wishbringer stone and stellar
patrol id card (from Plantfall, I think). Now everyone worries about making
strange boxes that are inconvenient for valuable shelf space, but remember how
great that spaceship box for Starcross was? If 'ol Ed Wood had used those in Plan
9 those flying saucer shots wouldn't have been so laughable (wait, I'm not sure
that's a good thing!)...
> But, back to the point, even if the company is nearby, I generally *never*
> recieve any indication that the company ever got my registration. Such a
> simple way for them to keep me informed too.
Yeah, evidently too simple...
> Ken
--
_
| | Billy Cruise Vermithrax Dragon
\0\ USPTR -==(UDIC)==-
\_\______________________________________________
_ |_|Ban...@worldnet.att.net Ban...@msn.com \
(_)|||||_|----------------Wizardry Fanatic---------------|
|_|______________________________________________/
/ /
/0/ ...playing with the pencils
|_| on the Group W bench...-Arlo Guthrie
Chris Raduazzo
> Quite a few folks are telling people they are idiots for buying software
> from a place that won't give you your money back after you have opened the
> software just because you don't like it.
> Could someone please let me know of a few of these places that will
> happily give you your money back on opened software?
> BTW:
> Best buy won't give you your money back.
> CompUSA won't
> Computer City won't
> Circuit City won't
> Egghead won't
> *******************
> Chris
> *******************
Babbage's will.
--
I don't need no stinking .sig!
-ChriS-
crad...@solix.fiu.edu
Alan Dion
<vl...@dev.infomkt.ibm.com> writes:
>Mag477 wrote:
>> Could someone please let me know of a few of these places that will
>> happily give you your money back on opened software?
>>
>> BTW:
>> Best buy won't give you your money back.
>> CompUSA won't
>> Computer City won't
>> Circuit City won't
>> Egghead won't
>
though they
>say otherwise in signs around the store). I have also been able to
exchange
>without a receipt(Had to do this after Christmas).
>
>Now please note that I am an adult and usually dressed well when I do
exchange
>items, they may give different responses if you look young as they
think your
>trying to pull something on them.
>
>Vinny Lee
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Understand this is not a plug. It's just a fact. The best return
policy I have found is at Electronics Boutique. They will take
anything back within 10 days for full refund or credit. Also, they
match prices (at least they do in my area) so if you see an amazing
price at CompUSA just tell them and they will sell the game at that
price and the return policy still applies. You can't beat that.
Alan
The Avatar
I send in ALMOST all my registration cards (those without pre-paid
postage usually get filled out but never sent :) and have discovered the
following:
Lucasarts rules: Not only do I get seasonal issues of the Adventurer, but
occasionaly also the postacard from them regarding "special deals".
Electronic Arts/ Origin just sends little postacards advocating their
latest program, available via direct order at their low low price...
(not:)
Sierra sent me their magazine long after I stopped buying their
products... they also sent me the update to Outpost (disk w/patch and new
manual) but that may have been a special case considering how badly
Outpost hurt Sierra's image...
Virgin apparently put me on their mailing list, so I get their
computer-game catalogs 3 or 4 times a year...
New World sent me two issuse of their magazine...
No other company (other than Infocom from way back when :) bothers to
keep me informed of anything.
I consider there to be a difference between catalogs -which have only
lists of games and things to buy- and magazines -which have the same
lists, but also tidbits like game-hints, patch-info, programmer bios, and
"sneak previews" on upcoming games... Both essentially do the same thing
(strive to sell you more games) but the game-magazines provided by the
game companies are less-blatant about it :)
--
========================================================================
Hey! It's THE Avatar
(note the "THE"; I'm more than the garden-variety Paragon of Virtue!)
a.k.a ava...@chelsea.ios.com