Un-Christian Themes in Baldur's Gate
Grimfarrow
> > and the worship of evil mythologies is actually encouraged in
> > some cases.
Evil doesn't exist without good, because then you wouldnt' knowwhat is good.
So you're just being stupid throwing words like
"evil" around when ti means nothing.
> > It is bad enough that long-dead pagan cults such as druidism have
> > place in this world; the Satanic references are simply not acceptable.
Excuse me, but I think that satanisism has every legitimate right toexist, as
long as they don't kill people and do socially detrimental
behaviors. I mean, you Christians have the right to exercise your
religious rights, and you're trying to stop others from doing so?
I knew it, all of Jesus' works were for naught. If he was here right
now he would probably be a goth trying to fight against religious
persecution.
Grimfarrow
cce...@my-dejanews.com
To the developers of the computer game Baldur's Gate:
I represent a group called the Concerned Christians Watch Group. We have
recently begun investigating video games for possible harmful content. We have
found that your game not only promotes violence in general but that its use of
the notorious Dungeons & Dragons roleplaying system is definitely harmful. The
pagan symbolism is not acceptable in game that will be played by children.
Our organization has been in contact with the Southern Baptist Union and also
the Christian Coalition. We are planning to organize a boycott of major retail
chain stores such as Walmart which might otherwise carry this product. We
insist that the pagan elements be removed or at the very least a clear warning
be placed on the box indicating that such content is within, so that parents
may make an informed decision regarding the game.
Please contact us at cce...@hotmail.com so that this issue can be resolved
quickly.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
joelm...@geocities.com
cce...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
>
> To the developers of the computer game Baldur's Gate:
>
> I represent a group called the Concerned Christians Watch Group. We have
> recently begun investigating video games for possible harmful content. We have
> found that your game not only promotes violence in general but that its use of
> the notorious Dungeons & Dragons roleplaying system is definitely harmful. The
> pagan symbolism is not acceptable in game that will be played by children.
>
> Our organization has been in contact with the Southern Baptist Union and also
> the Christian Coalition. We are planning to organize a boycott of major retail
> chain stores such as Walmart which might otherwise carry this product. We
> insist that the pagan elements be removed or at the very least a clear warning
> be placed on the box indicating that such content is within, so that parents
> may make an informed decision regarding the game.
I suspect this is a certain troll we know and love in a bad disguise,
especially since (1) an organization like this would have their own domain
and not have to use hotmail for e-mail, especially not a hotmail account
with numbers at the end; (2) they wouldn't have to post via deja news; (3)
there is no "Southern Baptist Union"; (4) no Christian organization has
been concerned with RPG's in close to ten years; (5) they would know that
TSR got them off their case by elimating a lot of the "pagan" refrences
in D&D; (6) they would be smart enough to not post on usenet in an attempt
to reach one individual; (7) they would instead write actual letters that
would also be passed along to various retailers since activist
organizations shun electronic communication in these matters as not being
taken seriously; and (8) the whole thing smacks of someone who doesn't
understand politically active religious groups on every level.
In short, this is one pitiful excuse for a troll and Jeff Durbin really
should be ashamed of himself for not being able to come up with anything
better. Or were people finally just ignoring your nonsensical rantings?
If you want attention so badly, why don't you go into a goverment building
and loudly shout that you have a bomb and will kill everyone. I think
that will fill your need to be heard for quite some time.
Joel Mathis
Alex Mars
Nice troll, score 9.4.
>From: cce...@my-dejanews.com
>Date: Wed, Nov 18, 1998 11:03 EST
>Message-id: <72ur45$750$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
>
>
>
>To the developers of the computer game Baldur's Gate:
>
>I represent a group called the Concerned Christians Watch Group. We have
>recently begun investigating video games for possible harmful content. We
>have
>found that your game not only promotes violence in general but that its use
>of
>the notorious Dungeons & Dragons roleplaying system is definitely harmful.
>The
>pagan symbolism is not acceptable in game that will be played by children.
>
>Our organization has been in contact with the Southern Baptist Union and also
>the Christian Coalition. We are planning to organize a boycott of major
>retail
>chain stores such as Walmart which might otherwise carry this product. We
>insist that the pagan elements be removed or at the very least a clear
>warning
>be placed on the box indicating that such content is within, so that parents
>may make an informed decision regarding the game.
>
>Please contact us at cce...@hotmail.com so that this issue can be resolved
>quickly.
>
>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
>http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
></PRE></HTML>
-You slip into your secret underwear, you get on over to the dark side of your
mind...
tan...@my-dejanews.com
>
> I represent a group called the Concerned Christians Watch Group. We have
> recently begun investigating video games for possible harmful content. We have
> found that your game not only promotes violence in general but that its use of
> the notorious Dungeons & Dragons roleplaying system is definitely harmful. The
> pagan symbolism is not acceptable in game that will be played by children.
>
> Our organization has been in contact with the Southern Baptist Union and also
> the Christian Coalition. We are planning to organize a boycott of major retail
> chain stores such as Walmart which might otherwise carry this product. We
> insist that the pagan elements be removed or at the very least a clear warning
> be placed on the box indicating that such content is within, so that parents
> may make an informed decision regarding the game.
>
> Please contact us at cce...@hotmail.com so that this issue can be resolved
> quickly.
>
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
>
I'm gonna guess you're just another dumbass troller trying to stir up shit.
But on the off chance you're not kidding I'd like to say this <LAUGH>. Keep
your nose out of everyone else's business asshole. It's overbearing dipshits
like you that would take away my first amendment rights. I'd like to suggest
a mailbombing of your account but I see since you've taken the chickenshit
method and left a hotmail address that you haven't the balls to open your
real e-mail address up for the avalanche of criticism you'd recieve. Lemme
guess you're really Jeff the Queen bone smoker alias I'm a flaming homosexual
and everyone better not say anything that offends me. This ng is about games
you fucking lamers. If you have business with Interplay don't post it here,
take it to Interplay or Black Isle, otherwise quit trying to stir up shit
lamer.
Simutron10
spotted a book in the window one day, and I went in and bought it out of sheer
curiosity. The exact title escapes me, but it was something on the order of
"How Dungeons and Dragons is Used to Introduce Witchcraft and Paganism to
Children."
It's theme was that D&D had been created and was being used specifically as a
tool of satan to corrupt children, teach them to worship demons, and generally
muck things up.
Now, I've been playing in and running FRP campaigns since D&D was still just
"Chainmail." I must have missed the meeting about corrupting children and
sabotaging society. Anybody take notes? ;)
To me, the most frightening thing in the world is the lengths to which people
can push their self-delusions. It's even worse when combined with a fervor to
impress those self-delusions on others in the name of "morality." Nothing is
more dangerous or hard to understand than a zealot who "knows" he's right.
You know, I may have just created the next major villian for GemStone. Hrmm.
Here's to hoping it's just a troll :)
-Mike B.
The above are my personal feelings, not those of Simutronics.
LewisZephyr
I being a pagan find quite a bit wrong with this. What pagan
symbol are you talking about.... The Cross, The christmas tree..oops
I mean Yule Tree, The Easter Egg.
In case you don't understand, Most of your righteous religious
traditions are stolen from the Pagan Tradition.
Oh, Away in a manger..... Was a Pagan song Green Sleeves the words
were changed but the music was not.
Just had to spout out.... For all that is good in Pagans!!
Born Again Pagan..... Reincarnation eh?
Peace
Lewzephyr
On Wed, 18 Nov 1998 16:03:30 GMT, cce...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
>
>To the developers of the computer game Baldur's Gate:
>
>I represent a group called the Concerned Christians Watch Group. We have
>recently begun investigating video games for possible harmful content. We have
>found that your game not only promotes violence in general but that its use of
>the notorious Dungeons & Dragons roleplaying system is definitely harmful. The
>pagan symbolism is not acceptable in game that will be played by children.
>
>Our organization has been in contact with the Southern Baptist Union and also
>the Christian Coalition. We are planning to organize a boycott of major retail
>chain stores such as Walmart which might otherwise carry this product. We
>insist that the pagan elements be removed or at the very least a clear warning
>be placed on the box indicating that such content is within, so that parents
>may make an informed decision regarding the game.
>
>Please contact us at cce...@hotmail.com so that this issue can be resolved
>quickly.
>
>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
>http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Peace,
Lewzephyr
Ignorance is a blessing, for it can be corrected.
Stupidity is a sin, for it can only breed.
Domin 'Alien' Wnek
LewisZephyr wrote:
>
> Yes a troll,
>
> I being a pagan find quite a bit wrong with this. What pagan
> symbol are you talking about.... The Cross, The christmas tree..oops
> I mean Yule Tree, The Easter Egg.
> In case you don't understand, Most of your righteous religious
> traditions are stolen from the Pagan Tradition.
> Oh, Away in a manger..... Was a Pagan song Green Sleeves the words
> were changed but the music was not.
>
> Just had to spout out.... For all that is good in Pagans!!
>
> Born Again Pagan..... Reincarnation eh?
Aye. And besides - as we don't exactly know when Jesus was born (the
day/month, not the year) we adopted the Pagan celebration of the Sun day
- 24th of December...
--
Domin 'How do I become the Avatar? Or Han Solo maybe?' Wnek
Lady of Decay Productions Homesite: http://www.kki.net.pl/decay
ICQ: 2293474
Matthew Filla
>In short, this is one pitiful excuse for a troll and Jeff Durbin really
>should be ashamed of himself for not being able to come up with anything
>better.
Just think though, if a religious group was going to boycott Baldur's
Gate, we could just placate 'em by pointing out that at least there
aren't any gay characters in it...
:)
Matt
--
Consulting Dragon -==(UDIC)==- |"Evangelists tend to think that
(aka Matthew Filla) | religion should be spread like
Middleton, WI | a virus. I believe it should be
matthe...@teldta.com | picked like a fruit." -Lost Dragon
cce...@my-dejanews.com
>
> I suspect this is a certain troll we know and love in a bad disguise,
> especially since (1) an organization like this would have their own domain
> and not have to use hotmail for e-mail, especially not a hotmail account
> with numbers at the end;
We are relatively new to the Internet and do not as of yet have paid access.
(2) they wouldn't have to post via deja news;
This is the method we were given to post. I was unaware that it was not
common; as I said we are not experienced Internet users.
(3)
> there is no "Southern Baptist Union";
That's funny, I have several friends within it. It may not have a large
profile, but it does exist, I assure you.
(4) no Christian organization has
> been concerned with RPG's in close to ten years;
All the more reason for us to pursue it.
(5) they would know that
> TSR got them off their case by elimating a lot of the "pagan" refrences
> in D&D;
The changes made were not sufficient. There are still overt references to
false pantheons and the worship of evil mythologies is actually encouraged in
some cases. It is bad enough that long-dead pagan cults such as druidism have
place in this world; the Satanic references are simply not acceptable.
(6) they would be smart enough to not post on usenet in an attempt
> to reach one individual;
You've apparently never heard of the "open letter" approach.
(7) they would instead write actual letters that
> would also be passed along to various retailers since activist
> organizations shun electronic communication in these matters as not being
> taken seriously;
What makes you think we haven't done that as well?
and (8) the whole thing smacks of someone who doesn't
> understand politically active religious groups on every level.
It's interesting you think so. Any pointers you have for us will be gladly
received, I assure you. All we have is our faith and our desire to see a
change in this society.
Timothy Huey
Sorry Christians.
Tim
Werner
>
>
>I represent a group called the Concerned Christians Watch Group. We have
>recently begun investigating video games for possible harmful content. We have
>found that your game not only promotes violence in general but that its use of
>the notorious Dungeons & Dragons roleplaying system is definitely harmful. The
>pagan symbolism is not acceptable in game that will be played by children.
Actually with all the gay stuff which they adding right now (due to
the request of Jeff) I wouldn't even be concerned about a Pagan symbol
if I were you.
(for those who don't realize this was sarcastic)
Oh man some people really have problems, a Pagan symbol give me a
break, really doubt that kids nowadays play RPGs they usually watch
horror movies which are shown in the afternoon on television or play
cute games like Quake or Carmaggeddon, the times kids played hardcore
RPGs are pretty over, most of the people who play RPGs are adults
between 20 and 30 which have played pen and paper RPGs. And besides
that I think BG will have a 12+ rating or so. Besides that I doubt
that a kid below 9 or 10 can handle the stats stuff of an RPG
decently.
Btw. lets start another discussion:
Ok I live in a country with a catholic heritage (Austria), but how
comes, that naked bodies are shown in tv ads and banners, how comes
that we can see beer commercials where the main story is that some
guys are standing in front of a toilet and only the guy who drank a
certain brand actually can pee, and prostitution is legalized and the
legal prostitutes have to pay income tax, and how comes that with all
these shocking elements I live in one of the savest democracies in the
world crimewise and we don't have a violence problem in schools etc...
If I were you I would start to search for the real reasons of
childrens problems instead of banning a game cause it has some combat
in it which doesn't even show extreme pictural violence like the
Fallout series(hell when I was six I played combat games with a few
friends) and because it has a Pagan symbol in it. Maybe the cause is
something else, maybe it is parents which don't have time for their
children anymore and leave the education to schools and tv, maybe it
is the society which teaches the children to cherish money above
everything (even morale), maybe...
Werner
-----
Memory Dragon
we...@my-dejanews.com
Nan Wang
cce...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> To the developers of the computer game Baldur's Gate:
> I represent a group called the Concerned Christians Watch Group. We have
> recently begun investigating video games for possible harmful content. We have
> found that your game not only promotes violence in general but that its use of
> the notorious Dungeons & Dragons roleplaying system is definitely harmful. The
> pagan symbolism is not acceptable in game that will be played by children.
> Our organization has been in contact with the Southern Baptist Union and also
> the Christian Coalition. We are planning to organize a boycott of major retail
> chain stores such as Walmart which might otherwise carry this product. We
> insist that the pagan elements be removed or at the very least a clear warning
> be placed on the box indicating that such content is within, so that parents
> may make an informed decision regarding the game.
> Please contact us at cce...@hotmail.com so that this issue can be resolved
> quickly.
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Stefan Vilpula
Simutron10 wrote in message <19981118114803...@ng03.aol.com>...
>It may not be a troll. I used to live next to a Christian bookstore. I
>spotted a book in the window one day, and I went in and bought it out of
sheer
>curiosity. The exact title escapes me, but it was something on the order
of
>"How Dungeons and Dragons is Used to Introduce Witchcraft and Paganism to
>Children."
>
>It's theme was that D&D had been created and was being used specifically as
a
>tool of satan to corrupt children, teach them to worship demons, and
generally
>muck things up.
>
I guess they don't approve Disney stuff either then?
/Stefan
The Perfect Game
have encountered. And given that the people they are associating with
during such activities are involved too, there really is no point of
guidance for these kids. It weakens their discernment to see something bad
portrayed as something good (i.e. summoning demons, etc.)
I used to play D&D and I played it without all the demonology and witchcraft
the comes with it. However I can see where this could be a concern to some
people. I had a loving home and simply enjoyed the roleplaying/acting
aspect of the game. But any kid who can get involved with something so
deeply that it changes them so drastically has issues that drove him to seek
such an outlet in the first place.
--
-----
Kevin L. Kitchens, Editor, The Perfect Game
The Perfect Game - Your single source for Baseball Gaming news, interviews,
reviews, previews and leagues. A subsidiary site of The Gamer's Voice.
http://www.gamersvoice.com/PerfectGame
------
Simutron10 wrote in message <19981118114803...@ng03.aol.com>...
>It may not be a troll. I used to live next to a Christian bookstore. I
>spotted a book in the window one day, and I went in and bought it out of
sheer
>curiosity. The exact title escapes me, but it was something on the order
of
>"How Dungeons and Dragons is Used to Introduce Witchcraft and Paganism to
>Children."
>
>It's theme was that D&D had been created and was being used specifically as
a
>tool of satan to corrupt children, teach them to worship demons, and
generally
>muck things up.
>
Jonathan Dalton
Please, go blaze your fanatic guns elsewhere.
Thanks
Jon
Punkin Ford
>It may not be a troll. I used to live next to a Christian bookstore. I
>spotted a book in the window one day, and I went in and bought it out of sheer
>curiosity. The exact title escapes me, but it was something on the order of
>"How Dungeons and Dragons is Used to Introduce Witchcraft and Paganism to
>Children."
>
>It's theme was that D&D had been created and was being used specifically as a
>tool of satan to corrupt children, teach them to worship demons, and generally
>muck things up.
>
>Now, I've been playing in and running FRP campaigns since D&D was still just
>"Chainmail." I must have missed the meeting about corrupting children and
>sabotaging society. Anybody take notes? ;)
>
>To me, the most frightening thing in the world is the lengths to which people
>can push their self-delusions. It's even worse when combined with a fervor to
>impress those self-delusions on others in the name of "morality." Nothing is
>more dangerous or hard to understand than a zealot who "knows" he's right.
>
>You know, I may have just created the next major villian for GemStone. Hrmm.
>
>Here's to hoping it's just a troll :)
>
>-Mike B.
>
>The above are my personal feelings, not those of Simutronics.
Holy shit! You work for Simutronics! I love that company's games.
What did you do to get a job there?
---
"I'm a fast, violent bombshell who goes crazy with sex and drugs as
soon as I leave home."
Punkin' Ford
Peacedog1
>-snip long post of Joel's-
Well said. On a side note, I just go the ultimate Wizardry Compilation. it
was the only copy my EB received...good thing I reserved it. Or maybe nobody
else wanted it. The store manager had Wiz experience, so maybe I beat him to
the puch...
Todd Mulholland
LewisZephyr wrote:
> Oh, Away in a manger..... Was a Pagan song Green Sleeves the words
> were changed but the music was not.
>
Umm... sorry, wrong song. "what child(e) is this" is the one set to green
sleeves, and Green sleeves is not a pagan song, it was written by one of the
british kings... I forget who, but can look it up if you wish. It is basically
about a loose woman. (think: how would a woman's sleeves turn green? By the
sleeves, or the elbows, rubbing back against the grass... sort of a medieval
prelude to a rugburn ;-)
Shadracht:
doing his damnedest to re-find the druidic way...
joelm...@geocities.com
cce...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
>
> >
> > I suspect this is a certain troll we know and love in a bad disguise,
> > especially since (1) an organization like this would have their own domain
> > and not have to use hotmail for e-mail, especially not a hotmail account
> > with numbers at the end;
>
> We are relatively new to the Internet and do not as of yet have paid access.
Bull. I got my church going for free better than what you are
demonstrating.
> (2) they wouldn't have to post via deja news;
>
> This is the method we were given to post. I was unaware that it was not
> common; as I said we are not experienced Internet users.
See above.
> (3)
> > there is no "Southern Baptist Union";
>
> That's funny, I have several friends within it. It may not have a large
> profile, but it does exist, I assure you.
Troll, you are thinking of the Southern Baptist _Council_. There is no
_Union_.
> (4) no Christian organization has
> > been concerned with RPG's in close to ten years;
>
> All the more reason for us to pursue it.
See point number 8.
> (5) they would know that
> > TSR got them off their case by elimating a lot of the "pagan" refrences
> > in D&D;
>
> The changes made were not sufficient. There are still overt references to
> false pantheons and the worship of evil mythologies is actually encouraged in
> some cases. It is bad enough that long-dead pagan cults such as druidism have
> place in this world; the Satanic references are simply not acceptable.
See point number 4.
> (6) they would be smart enough to not post on usenet in an attempt
> > to reach one individual;
>
> You've apparently never heard of the "open letter" approach.
I have. Posting to usenet is not an open letter approach. Mailing it to
a newspaper would have been.
> (7) they would instead write actual letters that
> > would also be passed along to various retailers since activist
> > organizations shun electronic communication in these matters as not being
> > taken seriously;
>
> What makes you think we haven't done that as well?
The fact that you directed your comments here.
> and (8) the whole thing smacks of someone who doesn't
> > understand politically active religious groups on every level.
>
> It's interesting you think so. Any pointers you have for us will be gladly
> received, I assure you. All we have is our faith and our desire to see a
> change in this society.
Now this is more like it, but its too little too late. Your initial
post demonstrated just how much of a troll you are.
<IMPORTANT NOTE>
I would like to apologize in advance for what I'm about to do. I'm sorry
to everyone I am about to hurt, and I recognize how wrong it is. However,
those of us in this group have put up with the troll long enough and its
time to spread the misery around.
</IMPORTANT NOTE>
Hey Jeff, didn't you know that there is a message board on the Interplay
web site that acts as a direct line to Bioware and Interplay? They reply
there all the time and there are several hundred messages on the boards
each day from the interested fans of Baldur's Gate. You can get there
by going to http://www.interplay.com/bgate/mb3.html and there will always
be someone there to listen to you.
Joel Mathis
And my God have mercy upon my soul...
joelm...@geocities.com
"The Perfect Game" <perf...@gamersvoice.com> wrote:
> Well, actually D&D DOES expose kids/teens to things they might not normally
> have encountered. And given that the people they are associating with
> during such activities are involved too, there really is no point of
> guidance for these kids. It weakens their discernment to see something bad
> portrayed as something good (i.e. summoning demons, etc.)
Since when is summoning demons a bad thing? And if it weren't for AD&D
millions of kids would have to learn their occultism from such unreliable
sources as TV news, cartoons, and movies. Roleplaying games openned me
up to the wonderful world of worshipping Cthulhu and attempting to revive
him so that I can witness that great day when he rises up to devour the
world, and I made so many friends in the cult. ;)
Joel Mathis
Mark Holford
would forget about ... whats that game again???
joelm...@geocities.com wrote:
>
> In article <72ur45$750$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> cce...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
Snip
Fortran Dragon
[Snip]
> All the more reason for us to pursue it.
Why? Can you not understand the difference between reality and a
game played for fun? Is tolerance a word in your vocabulary?
[Snip]
> The changes made were not sufficient. There are still overt references to
> false pantheons
So are there in any history book (and the Bible, to boot). Are
you going to censor them as well?
> and the worship of evil mythologies is actually encouraged in
> some cases.
Which cases? Please back up your accusations with specifics that
can be independently verified.
> It is bad enough that long-dead pagan cults such as druidism have
> place in this world; the Satanic references are simply not acceptable.
Which 'satanic' references?
Anyway, why not act like an adult and simply refrain from being
involved in an activity you don't like. It is not being forced upon you.
You can easily avoid it if you like.
Why not spend your time on something actually important, like
volunteering your time at a local soup kitchen, donating blood, etc.?
--
Fortran Dragon -==(UDIC)==- | "There isn't enough darkness in the world
-=[MT]=- | to quench the light of one small candle."
Hidalgo Trading Company: <http://home.earthlink.net/~fortran/index.html>
rgcud FAQ: <http://home.earthlink.net/~fortran/faq/rgcudfaq.html>
Ryan Mark Vurlicer
> (4) no Christian organization has
>> been concerned with RPG's in close to ten years;
>All the more reason for us to pursue it.
*sigh* It was my hope that wiser fanatics had prevailed. Consider
that one possible reason it was dropped was because there was nothing there...
> (6) they would be smart enough to not post on usenet in an attempt
>> to reach one individual;
>You've apparently never heard of the "open letter" approach.
Or have seen enough trolls to call a duck a duck...
I've always been curious what the reaction would be to some RPG based
on Narnia. It would probably be railed against too...
Fantasy != reality. As for warning labels on games that deal with
evil in some way...that was a joke of some variety, no?
*Warning* This game allows you to make various decisions. The manufacturers
do not necessarily approve of all decisions.
*Warning* This game allows the user to engage in vicarious acts of violence.
The manufacturers in no way approve of acts of violence.
*Warning* This game allows the user to control a character in a fantasy
scenario in which the character can cast spells. The manufacturers do not
approve of the use of magic in the modern world.
*Warning* This game contains a fantasy pantheon. The manufacturers wish to
apologize to the various religions whose god(s) and/or goddess(es)
may not have been included.
*Warning* This game contains references to evil and Evil beings. It's a game
of a cataclysmic struggle between good and evil and we thought, like, it was
kinda important to have some bad guys...who knew?
*Warning* This game allows the user to blow up the characters of total
strangers. The manufacturer emphatically denies any allegations that it in
any way supports the annihilation of total strangers.
*Warning* This game depicts various fantasy religions. The manufacturers
wish to state that they only really believe in the One True Religion (tm)
that you do.
(would that be vague enough?)
etc.
Eventually, you have a box covered in warning labels with a itty-bitty
thumbnail for a screen shot, a name, and the system requirements...
I'm sure it would be amusing to concoct warning lists for various games and
try to identify them by the lists...
War. Magic. Demon Summoning. Killing. Deforestation. == Warcraft
Kidnapping. Assassination. Explosions. Body Alteration. Mind Control.
== Syndicate
Course, you'd need longer lists, and overly dramatic warnings, but you get
the basic idea... :)
--
Ryan Vurlicer
http://http.tamu.edu/~rmv2498
GuildBoss
Paul (reader of UO, EQ, RPG, and Strategy ng's)
>If this were not a joke, it would certainly drive sales up.
>
>Nice troll, score 9.4.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul H. Soares, Jr.
GuildBoss - Guild and Clan Manager for Win9x/NT
http://www.guildboss.com
joelm...@geocities.com
peac...@aol.com (Peacedog1) wrote:
> >From: joelm...@geocities.com
Let's get the foul taste of this out of our mouth's, shall we?
How is the documentation? Is it similar to the earlier Interplay
"Ultimate" archives? How much did it cost you? I was seeing it for $40
in my local store and I decided to hold off probably until after the turn
of the year since I have played most of the games there already...
joelm...@geocities.com
tmu...@notspam.ctlnet.com wrote:
>
>
> LewisZephyr wrote:
>
> > Oh, Away in a manger..... Was a Pagan song Green Sleeves the words
> > were changed but the music was not.
> >
>
> Umm... sorry, wrong song. "what child(e) is this" is the one set to green
> sleeves, and Green sleeves is not a pagan song, it was written by one of the
> british kings... I forget who, but can look it up if you wish. It is
basically
> about a loose woman. (think: how would a woman's sleeves turn green? By
the
> sleeves, or the elbows, rubbing back against the grass... sort of a medieval
> prelude to a rugburn ;-)
Henry VIII takes credit for it, and it is a drinking song from that period,
but most scholars agree that he did not actually write it.
cce...@my-dejanews.com
> >
> > We are relatively new to the Internet and do not as of yet have paid access.
>
> Bull. I got my church going for free better than what you are
> demonstrating.
Unfortunately, you aren't a member of our congregation. :) We did the best
that we could.
>
> > (3)
> > > there is no "Southern Baptist Union";
> >
> > That's funny, I have several friends within it. It may not have a large
> > profile, but it does exist, I assure you.
>
> Troll, you are thinking of the Southern Baptist _Council_. There is no
> _Union_.
I'm not thinking of anything but a small organization of concerned Baptists.
This is not a national campaign...yet. We have to work with who we know and
expand from there.
>
> > (6) they would be smart enough to not post on usenet in an attempt
> > > to reach one individual;
> >
> > You've apparently never heard of the "open letter" approach.
>
> I have. Posting to usenet is not an open letter approach. Mailing it to
> a newspaper would have been.
What purpose would it accomplish to post it to a newspaper which had never
heard of the game in question? Here I am dealing with the target audience,
which is what we wanted.
>
> > and (8) the whole thing smacks of someone who doesn't
> > > understand politically active religious groups on every level.
> >
> > It's interesting you think so. Any pointers you have for us will be gladly
> > received, I assure you. All we have is our faith and our desire to see a
> > change in this society.
>
> Now this is more like it, but its too little too late. Your initial
> post demonstrated just how much of a troll you are.
I'm sorry you think so. Thank you for helping me find out what a troll was,
though. :)
To respond to the rest of your post:
I did a search using this program for the Jeff Durbin you spoke of. It is
somwhat of an irony that you would associate me with him, as our group stands
outside the norm in taking no stance against homosexuality. While the laws of
the Old Testament do prohibit homosexual acts and Jesus said that we must
obey the laws of our Father, we believe that it is up to a loving God to
judge us for our actions. In other words, the Christian homosexual must find
his own peace with God. We are not Catholic priests, to interpret God's will;
each soul finds his own salvation.
What we DO oppose is the misdirection of Americans, particularly youth, to
pagan and potentially Satanic messages. Just as the devil may come at our
souls through hatreds, so also may he twist us through false messengers.
Mark Holford
(That board was quite tolerable until now...)
James N. Daniel, III
>
> LewisZephyr wrote:
>
> > Oh, Away in a manger..... Was a Pagan song Green Sleeves the words
> > were changed but the music was not.
> >
>
> Umm... sorry, wrong song. "what child(e) is this" is the one set to green
> sleeves, and Green sleeves is not a pagan song, it was written by one of the
> british kings... I forget who, but can look it up if you wish. It is basically
> about a loose woman. (think: how would a woman's sleeves turn green? By the
> sleeves, or the elbows, rubbing back against the grass... sort of a medieval
> prelude to a rugburn ;-)
>
> doing his damnedest to re-find the druidic way...
It's attributed to the infamous Henry VIII, of all people. I'm not
entirely
certain which sources indicate this. Even then, it's the words to
Greensleeves
that are attributed to him, and the music is suspected to be far older.
James Daniel
Seth Fultz
have the power to make bad people worse. Case in point:
A friend of mine from college would frequenly play D&D with his friends
in an old cave above the river running through campus. Marijuana would
be going around quite liberally. One night apparently he had too much,
because he started believing he was really and truly being chased by
orcs. He ran out of the cave. His friends, concenrned for his safety,
chased after him to make sure he didn't get hurt. Now, when you're
chasing someone who's afraid he's being chased, you have to be careful.
As soon as he saw that the people after him were within sight, he picked
up a fallen branch and started swinging. Lots of people went home with
stitches, and one person had to stay overnight in the hospital to see if
his head wound was anything more than a concussion.
Do I think D&D is evil because of this incident? No. The marijuana had
more to do with it than anything. The particular scene he had in his
head, being chased by D&D monsters, is the only thing I blame on D&D.
It really had the power to amplify his delusion. Therefore D&D can take
a bad situation and make it worse.
Anyone who is well grounded in reality shouldn't have anything to worry
about. With people who aren't so well bonded to real life, now I think
some of those groups against D&D have a point. It can affect people who
don't have a sharp grasp on what's real and what isn't. I still play
D&D to this day, and don't think it has had a negative effect on me, but
then I don't live and breathe it either like some people I know.
Seth Fultz
sdf...@qgraph.com
Seth Fultz
'non-Christian' game? I was going to post a message listing a dozen or
so other games that you could work on as well, just to keep you better
occupied, but then it occurred to me that there's a better way.
Go and find me a game that has totally Christian values. It doesn't
have to build me up to be a better person, but I want you to find a
game, any game, that doesn't violate a single Christian teaching.
If you can do this for me, I guarantee it'll be a long, long time before
you're able to post a response. Over 95% of the games can be removed
from the list just on killing alone.
How about computer board games? Monopoly encourages greed, in Chess you
have attacking armies and Bishops being killed.
How about little kids games? Even though I'm 25, I'll settle for -any-
title you can give me. It doesn't have to be one I like. Kids games
encourage false idols. Ever seen a 4 year old watching Barney? That's
some seriously messed up idolatry. The way they worship that purple guy
can't be good for their religious well-being.
What about those Barbie Fasion CD's. This one isn't even hard. Look at
the vanity it causes.
What about sports games? They push pride to unhealthy levels and the
controlled violence in competition desensetizes kids to real violence.
Find me a single computer or console game title that doesn't break a
single Christian teaching. Any title will do, no matter the audience
it's geared for. If it holds up to scrutiny I'll be surprised.
Don't get me wrong, I support good Christian and Family values. I think
better values would do a lot for society. I just think it's impossible
to shelter anyone by any means at all. It's a much better idea to
preach awareness, and the ability to make sound judgements on what are
and are not good lifestyles to follow. To ban something, you risk
unpreparedness if it is ever accidentally encountered. Better to learn
how to deal with it when you do encounter it.
Seth Fultz
sdf...@qgraph.com
cce...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> To the developers of the computer game Baldur's Gate:
>
<snip>
>
> Please contact us at cce...@hotmail.com so that this issue can be resolved
> quickly.
>
Gobbly
suuuuuperb!)... bodies being blown to bits and limbs being shot off...
Knoxy
1-0 to the Arsenal !!!
cce...@my-dejanews.com
>
> Oh man some people really have problems, a Pagan symbol give me a
> break, really doubt that kids nowadays play RPGs they usually watch
> horror movies which are shown in the afternoon on television or play
> cute games like Quake or Carmaggeddon, the times kids played hardcore
> RPGs are pretty over, most of the people who play RPGs are adults
> between 20 and 30 which have played pen and paper RPGs. And besides
> that I think BG will have a 12+ rating or so. Besides that I doubt
> that a kid below 9 or 10 can handle the stats stuff of an RPG
> decently.
Please accept my apologies in advance for replying to many different posts
with this one response. I felt this one summarized the objections many of you
expressed separately.
We were referred to Baldur's Gate because it specifically endorsed a
roleplaying "game" that we have identified as harmful, especially for youth.
While games like Quake are certainly offensive, our research has shown that
their effect is transient, or at most no worse than what we get from
television. That area is covered by friends who have much more influence than
we will ever have. :) We chose to direct our efforts here to have the most
effect possible.
You are certainly correct that the problems youth face today are complex,
with many roots. But we must begin somewhere, and it is our feeling that
roleplaying games like this one can have a very harmful effect on
impressionable minds. Many roleplayers are loners, already separate from
Christian values and society. Dungeons and Dragons deepens that separation,
creates a permanent rift in many cases. This is what we seek to prevent.
Board Moderator
quest to boycott Baldur's Gate!!! Well, sometimes in politics you wind up
making alliances with people that you never thought you would. Well we are
after different things but if you are going to do this I think you should
call Queer Nation and Act-Up so that there is a united front and we don't
wind up picketing the same stores. We want wider coverage and with two
politically different organizations showing support from both the right and
the left we might actually get heard.
Long Live Queen Jeff
More Man Than You Will Ever Be
More Woman Than You Will Ever Get
Board Moderator
cce...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message <72ur45$750$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
>
>To the developers of the computer game Baldur's Gate:
>
>I represent a group called the Concerned Christians Watch Group. We have
>recently begun investigating video games for possible harmful content. We
have
>found that your game not only promotes violence in general but that its use
of
>the notorious Dungeons & Dragons roleplaying system is definitely harmful.
The
>pagan symbolism is not acceptable in game that will be played by children.
>
>Our organization has been in contact with the Southern Baptist Union and
also
>the Christian Coalition. We are planning to organize a boycott of major
retail
>chain stores such as Walmart which might otherwise carry this product. We
>insist that the pagan elements be removed or at the very least a clear
warning
>be placed on the box indicating that such content is within, so that
parents
>may make an informed decision regarding the game.
>
>Please contact us at cce...@hotmail.com so that this issue can be resolved
>quickly.
>
Peacedog1
>Let's get the foul taste of this out of our mouth's, shall we?
Agreed
>How is the documentation? Is it similar to the earlier Interplay
>"Ultimate" archives? How much did it cost you? I was seeing it for $40
>in my local store and I decided to hold off probably until after the turn
>of the year since I have played most of the games there already...
Documentation is indeed similar to the previous archive formats. For those of
us not familiar, they essentially packed every manual into a big book. All the
classic pictures are there: comparison between the guy in underwear and the
tank for ac 10 and ac -10 still makes me laugh. It ran me $40 and change (list
price was $39.99). I got it primarily becuase I have never played Wiz 4 or
bane. Also, I lost my copy of Wizardry 7, so its nice own it (especially since
I never beat it. That shall change). They have made it possible to install
onto the hd, and the copy protection is no longer. The interface for Bane is a
tad clunky (and only one save....ahhhhh the good old days...) but I am excited
to get into it. That coupled with the announcement that we might see the F2
patch tonight/tomorrow means I will be happily busy for awhile.
Andy
--
>
>> Umm... sorry, wrong song. "what child(e) is this" is
the one set to green
>> sleeves, and Green sleeves is not a pagan song, it was
written by one of the
>> british kings... I forget who, but can look it up if you
wish. It is
>basically
>> about a loose woman. (think: how would a woman's
sleeves turn green? By
>the
>> sleeves, or the elbows, rubbing back against the grass...
sort of a medieval
>> prelude to a rugburn ;-)
>
>Henry VIII takes credit for it, and it is a drinking song
from that period,
>but most scholars agree that he did not actually write it.
>
>Joel Mathis
>
John Dilick
proclaimed:
God, I just *know* that I'm gonna regret this later...
>We were referred to Baldur's Gate because it specifically endorsed a
>roleplaying "game" that we have identified as harmful, especially for youth.
Well, I've identified organized religion as harmful, especially for
impressionable youth. So, could you please do us all a favor and disband
immediately before you cause any more problems for the children?
>While games like Quake are certainly offensive, our research has shown that
>their effect is transient, or at most no worse than what we get from
>television. That area is covered by friends who have much more influence than
>we will ever have. :) We chose to direct our efforts here to have the most
>effect possible.
Put up or shut up time. Cite the sources of your research.
I'll still be here when you manage to perform this in the far distant
future.
>You are certainly correct that the problems youth face today are complex,
>with many roots. But we must begin somewhere, and it is our feeling that
>roleplaying games like this one can have a very harmful effect on
>impressionable minds.
Well, barraging young minds with tales of hellfire and eternal damnation
can cause all sorts of problems. Please desist immediately.
>Many roleplayers are loners, already separate from
>Christian values and society. Dungeons and Dragons deepens that separation,
>creates a permanent rift in many cases. This is what we seek to prevent.
Funny, whenever I've played D&D, it has been as part of a *group*, that
bonds people together to assist and aid.
As a troll, you still look lame.
--
John Dilick dili...@home.com
If at first you don't succeed, cheat. Cheat until caught, then lie.
Alan
>recently begun investigating video games for possible harmful content. We
have
>found that your game not only promotes violence in general but that its use
of
>the notorious Dungeons & Dragons roleplaying system is definitely harmful.
The
>pagan symbolism is not acceptable in game that will be played by children.
>
>Our organization has been in contact with the Southern Baptist Union and
also
>the Christian Coalition. We are planning to organize a boycott of major
retail
>chain stores such as Walmart which might otherwise carry this product. We
>insist that the pagan elements be removed or at the very least a clear
warning
>be placed on the box indicating that such content is within, so that
parents
>may make an informed decision regarding the game.
So, you're organization investigates things which may be harmful to people
psychologically. Well, instead of wasting time, money, and resources on
computer games, which will accomplish absolutely nothing, why don't you
focus on something more constructive like investigating government
corruption and waste, socialization and class envy in the public schools,
psychological brainwashing of television, and teaching people how to be
independent and self-sufficient, instead of dependent, non-producers, with a
slave mentailty. Your organization would be much more effective and would
produce something beneficial. That is what a Christian Watch Group should be
all about.
Grifman
(snip)
>> (3)
>> > there is no "Southern Baptist Union";
>>
>> That's funny, I have several friends within it. It may not have a large
>> profile, but it does exist, I assure you.
>
>Troll, you are thinking of the Southern Baptist _Council_. There is no
>_Union_.
For the record, since no one seems to know, it is the Southern Baptist
Convention :)
Grifman
jo...@diespam.net
I don't mean to sound combative - but this is NOT the place to protest
any games. I have a couple of questions for you:
1. Just who are "we" you are referring to when you say "...we have
identifies as harmful,..."?
2. I personally don't like the idea of anyone dictating to me what
their idea of "right and wrong" is. What makes you think that *you*
(and the group you represent) know what is best for me or anyone else?
Please don't tell me that I have to love everybody and boycott Disney
and hate gays or blacks just because *your* brand of Christianity says
so. And yes - the Southern Baptists I find to be way too extreme. If
I want to play a game where I can kill a bunch of people or if I want
to look at good wholesome family smut over the internet, so be it.
That's my choice.
3. Maybe if parents started doing their jobs instead of using tv,
video games, or schools as surrogate parents, there wouldn't be any
problems with kids.
4. How *the hell* can Quake be considered *ok* but Baldur's Gate
isn't?
5. The infamous "D&D causes our kids to kill themselves" idea is a
bunch of rubbish - those kids were twisted to begin with. The same
argument was made against Judas Priest and Ozzy because some kids
listened to their music and killed themselves and the courts didn't
buy the argument that the music caused them to kill themselves - same
argument here, different media.
6. How come in Australia they don't censor anything (they do have
warnings and ratings) on tv, and Australian youth aren't all a bunch
of devil-worshipping maniacal killers?
7. Pagan symbols *do not* mean devil worship - just ask the
thousands/millions of descendants of the the Celts/Druids if they are
devil worshippers. The large majority of the Irish and Scots are
Catholic or Protestant.
8. What makes *your* brand of Christianity "right"? What about the
Catholics, Methodists, Presbyterian, Episcopalians, Anglicans,
Mormons, Jews, Moslems/Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists,
Confucianists, Animists.... (Have I left any mainstream religions
out?) What about all of them? Are they all devil worshippers and
going to hell?
9. I'm sick of having a small minority try to dictate terms to the
majority. Frankly - I'm sick of listening to people try and ban
everything. Why don't you just join "Concerned Citizens Who are
Against Everything"?
On Wed, 18 Nov 1998 22:12:40 GMT, cce...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
>
>>
>> Oh man some people really have problems, a Pagan symbol give me a
>> break, really doubt that kids nowadays play RPGs they usually watch
>> horror movies which are shown in the afternoon on television or play
>> cute games like Quake or Carmaggeddon, the times kids played hardcore
>> RPGs are pretty over, most of the people who play RPGs are adults
>> between 20 and 30 which have played pen and paper RPGs. And besides
>> that I think BG will have a 12+ rating or so. Besides that I doubt
>> that a kid below 9 or 10 can handle the stats stuff of an RPG
>> decently.
>
>Please accept my apologies in advance for replying to many different posts
>with this one response. I felt this one summarized the objections many of you
>expressed separately.
>
>We were referred to Baldur's Gate because it specifically endorsed a
>roleplaying "game" that we have identified as harmful, especially for youth.
>While games like Quake are certainly offensive, our research has shown that
>their effect is transient, or at most no worse than what we get from
>television. That area is covered by friends who have much more influence than
>we will ever have. :) We chose to direct our efforts here to have the most
>effect possible.
>
>You are certainly correct that the problems youth face today are complex,
>with many roots. But we must begin somewhere, and it is our feeling that
>roleplaying games like this one can have a very harmful effect on
>impressionable minds. Many roleplayers are loners, already separate from
>Christian values and society. Dungeons and Dragons deepens that separation,
>creates a permanent rift in many cases. This is what we seek to prevent.
>
Ripple
Even if you are who you say you are, you have done nothing to further your
cause here. All you have done is unjustly tried to force your misguided
idealology down the throats of a bunch of normal, non-Satanic folks who just
want to play a game. If anything, you've encouraged some people to support
the game and the genre for no other reason than to spite you. You'll notice
that in this long thread, not a single person has rallied to your cause.
And if you're so worried about the children, you've chosen the wrong cause
to begin with. Contrary to what you probably expect, the average age of the
computer gamer (not console, mind you, but computer) is 34 years old.
That's plenty old enough to look out for their own well-being, wouldn't you
agree?
Those of us who post to this newgroup may enjoy roleplaying, but truly, it
is you who live in a fantasy world. Which is the greater evil -- to act out
your fantasies in the temporary alternate reality of a computer game, or to
stretch the delusions in your mind out to be the truth in the real world?
Even worse, you then have the unmitigated gall to force your unsound beliefs
on people who didn't ask for help, and who simply don't care what you think.
If you're truly a religious organization intent on saving the world's youth
from perceived danger, real or imagined, keep this in mind: the Christian
Savior has already been here. You are not Him, and you can't save anyone.
Take care of your own lives, living them for Christ or whoever you choose.
Let me be happy living my life for myself.
Sarah Ettritch
>Aye. And besides - as we don't exactly know when Jesus was born (the
>day/month, not the year) we adopted the Pagan celebration of the Sun day
>- 24th of December...
I thought we ripped off December 25 because it was Mithras' birthday.
Sarah.
=============================================
How many of you believe in telekinesis? Raise my hand!
Brian Short
cce...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
>
> What purpose would it accomplish to post it to a newspaper which had never
> heard of the game in question? Here I am dealing with the target audience,
> which is what we wanted.
>
The thing is, most of the target audience here (well, all of them probably) will
just laugh this post off as entertainment, you will enter a few killfiles, and
primarily be considered a troll, whether you are or not.
>
> >
> > > and (8) the whole thing smacks of someone who doesn't
> > > > understand politically active religious groups on every level.
> > >
> > > It's interesting you think so. Any pointers you have for us will be gladly
> > > received, I assure you. All we have is our faith and our desire to see a
> > > change in this society.
> >
> > Now this is more like it, but its too little too late. Your initial
> > post demonstrated just how much of a troll you are.
>
> I'm sorry you think so. Thank you for helping me find out what a troll was,
> though. :)
>
> To respond to the rest of your post:
>
> I did a search using this program for the Jeff Durbin you spoke of. It is
> somwhat of an irony that you would associate me with him, as our group stands
> outside the norm in taking no stance against homosexuality. While the laws of
> the Old Testament do prohibit homosexual acts and Jesus said that we must
> obey the laws of our Father, we believe that it is up to a loving God to
> judge us for our actions. In other words, the Christian homosexual must find
> his own peace with God. We are not Catholic priests, to interpret God's will;
> each soul finds his own salvation.
>
It seems funny to me that you seem to take great interest in trying to steer people
away from what is a harmless and entertaining computer game, while ignoring what
many more people, especially many religous groups, consider a much greater harm to
society.
> What we DO oppose is the misdirection of Americans, particularly youth, to
> pagan and potentially Satanic messages. Just as the devil may come at our
> souls through hatreds, so also may he twist us through false messengers.
>
Perhaps you should play AD&D, or at least read carefully through the Player's
Handbook, before you criticize something you dont know anything about. Out of
curiosity, what are your opinions of Role Playing Games in general, and Magic: The
Gathering
>
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Brian Short
bds...@hotmail.com
Brian Short
>
> Please accept my apologies in advance for replying to many different posts
> with this one response. I felt this one summarized the objections many of you
> expressed separately.
>
> We were referred to Baldur's Gate because it specifically endorsed a
> roleplaying "game" that we have identified as harmful, especially for youth.
> While games like Quake are certainly offensive, our research has shown that
> their effect is transient, or at most no worse than what we get from
> television. That area is covered by friends who have much more influence than
> we will ever have. :) We chose to direct our efforts here to have the most
> effect possible.
>
First, please point us to your "research". Saying that you have it without
giving a source is usually considered a no-no, especially when you are trying to
convince people of something. Also, games like Quake or Doom have more pagan or
satanic imagery, with their inverted crosses and pentagrams. I'm not saying this
makes them harmful, but certainly you cant ignore this and still say AD&D is
pagan.
Also, I dont recall seeing messages like this when Descent to Undermountain came
out, or any other AD&D based RPG, or other fantasy based RPG's, which take many
elements from AD&D.
> You are certainly correct that the problems youth face today are complex,
> with many roots. But we must begin somewhere, and it is our feeling that
> roleplaying games like this one can have a very harmful effect on
> impressionable minds. Many roleplayers are loners, already separate from
> Christian values and society. Dungeons and Dragons deepens that separation,
> creates a permanent rift in many cases. This is what we seek to prevent.
>
Again, cite some literature that shows this. You say roleplayers are "loners".
Are you referring to roleplayers in general, or just ones that play AD&D. Most
of the people I know that play this game are certainly not "loners", as a RPG is
basically a social gathering, and doenst work as well with smaller groups of
people.
Darryl Okahata
> Reguarding the original posting - it was from a hotmail
> address, and that's a pretty sure sign it was a troll.
The posting contained an hotmail address, but was posted via
DejaNews.
Other "hints":
* The author used smiley's (in their third or fourth posting). I think
it's unlikely that a relative Internet newbie would know how to use
smileys. It's certainly possible, but unlikely.
* The posting contains the header line:
X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x2.dejanews.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 24.112.84.25
Assume that this is from dejanews, and that it reflects the author's
(probably dynamically-assigned) IP address. It other words, he
probably posted from that IP address, and that the IP address probably
belongs to his ISP (or employer, etc.).
[ If this line is forged, then it's almost definitely a troll, as
honest people generally have no need to forge header lines. ]
Now, if this is correct, the author posted from:
$ nslookup 24.112.84.25
Name Server: xxxxxxx.xxxx.xx.xxx
Address: xx.xxx.xxx.xx
Name: cr1004963-a.slnt1.on.wave.home.com
Address: 24.112.84.25
(The "x"s, above, were put there by me.) Hmmm, "on.wave.home.com"???
Going to "http://www.arin.net/whois/arinwhois.html", and entering
"24.112.84.25", we find (reformatted for readability):
Rogers@Home Ontario (NETBLK-ROGERS-1-BLOCK) ROGERS-1-BLOCK
24.112.0.0 - 24.112.191.255
Rogers WAVE (NETBLK-ON-ROG-STLRT-2) ON-ROG-STLRT-2
24.112.84.0 - 24.112.87.255
Not too useful. Following the directions and entering
"!NETBLK-ON-ROG-STLRT-2", we find:
Rogers WAVE (NETBLK-ON-ROG-STLRT-2)
1 Mount Pleasant Road
Toronto, ON M4Y 2Y5
CA
Netname: ON-ROG-STLRT-2
Netblock: 24.112.84.0 - 24.112.87.255
Coordinator:
Di Lecce, Andrea (AD30-ARIN) sli...@ROGERSWAVE.CA
(416) 935-5700
Record last updated on 23-Oct-98.
Database last updated on 18-Nov-98 16:11:11 EDT.
Hmm? The ISP link is in Ontario, Canada?
While it is *possible* (I'm sure Southern Baptists can be found all
over the world), I think it's unlikely that a serious posting like
this would have come from Canada -- the Deep South, perhaps, but
probably not from Canada.
It's not conclusive, but I think the evidence is pointing to a troll.
Stranger things have happened, though.
[ Also, I find it very difficult to believe that anyone, who is
concerned about Baldur's Gate, would not also be concerned about
numerous other games. ]
--
Darryl Okahata
dar...@sr.hp.com
DISCLAIMER: this message is the author's personal opinion and does not
constitute the support, opinion, or policy of Hewlett-Packard, or of the
little green men that have been following him all day.
Nathan Carter (ARTS)
>
> > >
> > > We are relatively new to the Internet and do not as of yet have paid access.
> >
> > Bull. I got my church going for free better than what you are
> > demonstrating.
>
> Unfortunately, you aren't a member of our congregation. :) We did the best
> that we could.
But I AM a member! I got my purple robes right here, see!! Now let me go
speak to the Master, please... he and I have some things to discuss.
- Mega
/-------------------------------------------------------------------\
|Nathan Carter Senior Student Technology Consultant|
|Fine Arts Computing University of South Florida, Tampa|
|Voice: (813) 974-3709 email: nca...@satie.arts.usf.edu|
\-------------------------------------------------------------------/
Jean Bulkeley
Baldur's Gate be?
Board Moderator wrote:
> What a total shock!!! Am I to be joined by the religious fanatics in my
> quest to boycott Baldur's Gate!!! Well, sometimes in politics you wind up
> making alliances with people that you never thought you would. Well we are
> after different things but if you are going to do this I think you should
> call Queer Nation and Act-Up so that there is a united front and we don't
> wind up picketing the same stores. We want wider coverage and with two
> politically different organizations showing support from both the right and
> the left we might actually get heard.
>
> Long Live Queen Jeff
> More Man Than You Will Ever Be
> More Woman Than You Will Ever Get
> Board Moderator
> cce...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message <72ur45$750$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> >
> >
> >To the developers of the computer game Baldur's Gate:
> >
> >I represent a group called the Concerned Christians Watch Group. We have
> >recently begun investigating video games for possible harmful content. We
> have
> >found that your game not only promotes violence in general but that its use
> of
> >the notorious Dungeons & Dragons roleplaying system is definitely harmful.
> The
> >pagan symbolism is not acceptable in game that will be played by children.
> >
> >Our organization has been in contact with the Southern Baptist Union and
> also
> >the Christian Coalition. We are planning to organize a boycott of major
> retail
> >chain stores such as Walmart which might otherwise carry this product. We
> >insist that the pagan elements be removed or at the very least a clear
> warning
> >be placed on the box indicating that such content is within, so that
> parents
> >may make an informed decision regarding the game.
> >
> >Please contact us at cce...@hotmail.com so that this issue can be resolved
> >quickly.
> >
Kendrick Gold
addresses.
Pretty sad; Score 6.5 (the Russian judge gives him a 4.2)
Alex Mars wrote:
> If this were not a joke, it would certainly drive sales up.
>
> Nice troll, score 9.4.
>
> >From: cce...@my-dejanews.com
> >Date: Wed, Nov 18, 1998 11:03 EST
> >Message-id: <72ur45$750$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
> >
Snip
> >Please contact us at cce...@hotmail.com so that this issue can be resolved
> >quickly.
> >
> >-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> >http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
> ></PRE></HTML>
Simon Summerfield
>
> It's interesting you think so. Any pointers you have for us will be gladly
> received, I assure you. All we have is our faith and our desire to see a
> change in this society.
All you want to do is convert people to _your_ beliefs. I hate the
way every religious group (big or small, but the bigger the more
prominent) think they know what is right. I wasn't aware you made
any comments about changing society, just what types of religion/
worship is portrayed in the game. What people believe in is their
own business and their own choice, and not for you or anyone else
to dictate to them. If you want to believe that every person who
doesn't subscribe to your religion will rot in hell, then please
feel free, and others will no doubt feel the same way about you.
You have no right to enforce your views on others. If we don't
want to be "saved" then that's our lookout. If, however, you do
want to 'see a change in this society', then do something about
stopping murders, theft, etc. There has never been ANY evidence
that D&D (or computer games in general) increase these undesirable
elements in our society. These are "fantasy" games, quite separate
from reality, and the people who play them know that. I bet you
have fantasies about being a fun person occasionally, but wouldn't
let that fantasy creep into your real life.
To at least make this kind of relevant to this newsgroup, Baldur's
Gate has every right to depict anything that it wants to, as long
as it conforms to the normal censorship regulations which have
been put in place to reflect the community AS A WHOLE (not the
wishes of any particular group). Keep your beliefs, just don't try
to force them onto me.
You said you were new to the internet, so here's a word of advice.
There are newsgroups dedicated to the discussion of religious
issues BUT THIS IS NOT ONE OF THEM!
Simon.
Dustin Du Cane
>You are certainly correct that the problems youth face today are complex,
>with many roots. But we must begin somewhere, and it is our feeling that
>roleplaying games like this one can have a very harmful effect on
>impressionable minds. Many roleplayers are loners, already separate from
>Christian values and society. Dungeons and Dragons deepens that separation,
>creates a permanent rift in many cases. This is what we seek to prevent.
One question I would pose is:
Destroying D&D is a worthy cause as opposed to:
a) stamping out teenage pregnancy
b) stamping out teenage drug-use
c) encouraging teens to get a proper education
d) encouraging teens to go to a church (whatever Church)
e) encouraging teens to become responsible forward thinking adults
Ever thought about doing some ground roots work helping life's real losers
(drug addicts, career criminals, 16 year moms) instead of tackling something
you cannot understand
D&D and AD&D players are generally : more intelligent than average,
gregarious (which means not loners) and from better social backgrounds (i.e
not as likely to screw up their lives due to their circumstances).
D&D and AD&D gaming is a group activity!!! You meet in a group!!! You can't
play by yourself! How can this fit in with your definition of loner?
BTW I have never found a satanic motive in D&D or AD&D (do you know the
difference?) apart from an article in an early Dragon issue (if you even
know what Dragon is. Its a gaming mag BTW) concerning Biblical demonic
stats - the article also mentioned that PCs (Player Characters BTW) would be
damned to hell and fry if they got involved with demons. Sounds rather like
some sermons I've heard.
PS NEXT TIME EMAIL INTERPLAY OK? Try he...@interplay.com
PPS SSI's also released about 30 D&D and AD&D games. BTW SSI - a computer
game company.
PPPS Baldur's Gate is AD&D which is *slightly* different to D&D.
PPPPS Please do not make references to Catholic priests ok?
Dustin Du Cane
>Find me a single computer or console game title that doesn't break a
>single Christian teaching. Any title will do, no matter the audience
>it's geared for.
Minelayer and Solitaire! :-)
Included with Windows 95!
Sorry about that but you're right no complex games uphold Christian values
completely.
Dustin
BTW I heard about a Doom clone where you ran around converting monsters with
crosses and bibles and prayer. Forgot the name though.
Dustin Du Cane
completely.
Its got:
a) sexual morality
b) ethical priests
c) a firm belief in God
d) an US that believes in forgiveness and kindness towards neighbours
e) a religious crusade to stamp out evil
f) no violence
etc etc
Dustin
PS Sorry about that, couldn't resist it guys.
joelm...@geocities.com
cce...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > Bull. I got my church going for free better than what you are
> > demonstrating.
>
> Unfortunately, you aren't a member of our congregation. :) We did the best
> that we could.
Oh come on, its not that hard to get donations of $20 a month to finance
this kind of campaign.
> >
> > > (3)
> > > > there is no "Southern Baptist Union";
> > >
> > > That's funny, I have several friends within it. It may not have a large
> > > profile, but it does exist, I assure you.
> >
> > Troll, you are thinking of the Southern Baptist _Council_. There is no
> > _Union_.
>
> I'm not thinking of anything but a small organization of concerned Baptists.
> This is not a national campaign...yet. We have to work with who we know and
> expand from there.
Interesting that you gave them top billing over the Christian Coalition in
your initial post then. If you're going to troll, do your research first.
> > > (6) they would be smart enough to not post on usenet in an attempt
> > > > to reach one individual;
> > >
> > > You've apparently never heard of the "open letter" approach.
> >
> > I have. Posting to usenet is not an open letter approach. Mailing it to
> > a newspaper would have been.
>
> What purpose would it accomplish to post it to a newspaper which had never
> heard of the game in question? Here I am dealing with the target audience,
> which is what we wanted.
Campaigns like this never go after the target audience because they have
already made up their mind. They go after the uneducated. Nice try on
the recovery troll-boy, but you're going to have to do better than that.
> > > and (8) the whole thing smacks of someone who doesn't
> > > > understand politically active religious groups on every level.
> > >
> > > It's interesting you think so. Any pointers you have for us will be gladly
> > > received, I assure you. All we have is our faith and our desire to see a
> > > change in this society.
> >
> > Now this is more like it, but its too little too late. Your initial
> > post demonstrated just how much of a troll you are.
>
> I'm sorry you think so. Thank you for helping me find out what a troll was,
> though. :)
>
> To respond to the rest of your post:
>
> I did a search using this program for the Jeff Durbin you spoke of. It is
> somwhat of an irony that you would associate me with him, as our group stands
> outside the norm in taking no stance against homosexuality. While the laws of
> the Old Testament do prohibit homosexual acts and Jesus said that we must
> obey the laws of our Father, we believe that it is up to a loving God to
> judge us for our actions. In other words, the Christian homosexual must find
> his own peace with God. We are not Catholic priests, to interpret God's will;
> each soul finds his own salvation.
>
> What we DO oppose is the misdirection of Americans, particularly youth, to
> pagan and potentially Satanic messages. Just as the devil may come at our
> souls through hatreds, so also may he twist us through false messengers.
Why don't you just post from AOL, it would at least make it slightly
believable then that you wouldn't know what a troll is. But you have to
know usenet to know deja news, and if you know usenet enough to use
dejanews and find this group instead of rec.games.frp.dnd, then you
obviously both know what a troll is and have posted on usenet and this
group specifically in the past. Your account has not posted anything
before this thread, therefore you posted under another name. Your
intellectual content, writing style, and irrational desire for attention
match Durbin perfectly, therefore, you are Jeff Durbin.
Joel Mathis
Michel Boucher
>It may not be a troll.
It is a troll. E-mail address at hotmail?...give me a break! :-) Concerned
Christians Watch Group has no presence on the net (did exact phrase searches on
HotBot and Alta Vista).
Many pamphlets were produced by right-wing flatulents (excuse me...militants) and you
can find the most important manifestations of their long shadow in the rec.games.frp
FAQ on D&D at http://blues.helsinki.fi/~vviitane/rec.games.frp.Faq_Part_2.txt and by
doing a search on "Dungeons and Dragons controversy" on Yahoo.
I'd ignore it.
Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Battlefield/8738/
Co-author, DARKLANDS FAQ (http://www.darklands.net/)
Maintainer, Darklands List (http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/darklands to subscribe)
President Pro-Tem, Christina Amphlett Fan Club
For private mail, get the zed out.
jones
<do...@elektron.pl> indicated:
>Aye. And besides - as we don't exactly know when Jesus was born (the
>day/month, not the year)
Late spring/summer, most likely. Mary and Joe were returning
to Mary's birthplace for census.
> we adopted the Pagan celebration of the Sun day
>- 24th of December...
Of course the Pagans got it right and celebrated on the
solstice, not a few days later.
Reguarding the original posting - it was from a hotmail
address, and that's a pretty sure sign it was a troll.
---
-Jones (athiest Rev. #333 - "Watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat!")
[Military Phonetic version of my e-mail address to spoof spam: jones
at November Echo Tango Sierra Echo Tango dot Charlie Oscar Mike]
K. Laisathit
<jo...@diespam.net> wrote:
>8. What makes *your* brand of Christianity "right"? What about the
>Catholics, Methodists, Presbyterian, Episcopalians, Anglicans,
>Mormons, Jews, Moslems/Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists,
>Confucianists, Animists.... (Have I left any mainstream religions
>out?) What about all of them? Are they all devil worshippers and
>going to hell?
*chuckle* I remember reading somewhere that we are all going
to hell. Regardless of your religion, correction, because of your
religion, you're bound to be a heathen in the eyes of the rest
of the major religions. And virtually all religions prescribe
hell to all unbelievers. =)
Later...
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
K I R A T I L A I S A T H I T kir...@u.washington.edu
Michel Boucher
>Aye. And besides - as we don't exactly know when Jesus was born (the
>day/month, not the year) we adopted the Pagan celebration of the Sun day
>- 24th of December...
Sol Indigetis (or Poor Sun, the winter solstice) was celebrated on Dec. 11 in the
calendar of Numa Pompilius, in pre-Republican Rome. Dec. 14 was the day of
Saturnalia. Following the Gregorian reform of the calendar in 1582 (?) and the
disappearance of 11 days, Dec. 11 became Dec. 22 (more or less the day of the
solstice now) and Dec. 14 became Dec. 25. Makes perfect sense.
You're right, nowhere in the New Testament does it say Jesus was born on Dec. 25th.
That's a convention (which is as good as anything else in the face of no specific
information) but it's certainly not any sort of fact.
Dan Bongard
: To the developers of the computer game Baldur's Gate:
: I represent a group called the Concerned Christians Watch Group.
I seriously doubt you represent any such thing. You're just trolling.
*plonk*
-- Dan
Peacedog1
>Why Baldur's Gate in particular? What singles that out as the
>'non-Christian' game?
Its those damn Dwarves. They don't respect anybody, least of all themselves.
Filthy creatures...
Just kidding by the way...
joelm...@geocities.com
sg...@concentric.net (Grifman) wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Nov 1998 20:26:15 GMT, joelm...@geocities.com wrote:
>
> (snip)
>
> >> > there is no "Southern Baptist Union";
> >>
> >> That's funny, I have several friends within it. It may not have a large
> >> profile, but it does exist, I assure you.
> >
> >Troll, you are thinking of the Southern Baptist _Council_. There is no
> >_Union_.
>
> Convention :)
Well, as a Southern Baptist I never listened to them anyways ;)
Craig Terral Staley
: Domin 'Alien' Wnek <do...@elektron.pl> indicated:
:
: >Aye. And besides - as we don't exactly know when Jesus was born (the
: >day/month, not the year)
:
: Late spring/summer, most likely. Mary and Joe were returning
: to Mary's birthplace for census.
Actually, according to the most recent studies, there was not a census
at any time around the birth of Jesus. Most non-fundamentalists scholars
now think that Jesus wasn't born in Bethlehem, but the early Christians
made it up because certain passages in the Old Testament say that the
Messiah will be born there. In short, they contrived a story to move
Jesus's birth place to coincide with ancient prophesy.
Of course, fundamentalist scholars continue to look for evidence of a
census.
Also obvious is that this has nothing to do with Baldur's Gate.
-Craig
LapTop
>
>While games like Quake are certainly offensive, our research has shown that
>their effect is transient, or at most no worse than what we get from
>television.
>
You researched Quake and Quake like games? I can just see a bunch of
christians huddled around some computer screens playing deathmatch
quake, moaning and groaning at the horror of it all. hehe
So lets see, a bunch of very religious people who would never buy BG
anyhow, are threatening to gather in force and 'officially' not buy
BG, unless BG is changed into such a game that no one at all would buy
it. hehe
Lets make a role playing game where you role play the christian god.
You help your hero 'moses', with his army stack, destroy entire cities
of people who don't think 'you're the man'. Of course, you have to
kill all the children too. This will be graphically portrayed, of
course, since it doesn't count as violence that would hurt our
children, since it is in the bible and all.
You can flood everyone too! (this can be depicted as a nice FMV with
a bunch of little babies drowning). Again, since its in the bible,
its ok to graphically portray these scenes to young children. After
all, they've already read about it in sunday school.
You can even tell one of your units that he has to kill his son.
Then, right as he's about to, say 'psych!!'. Then tell him to kill
his son again, then say 'psych!' again, etc.... repeat till ya get
bored.
Then you give the great gift, to all your units, of free will. Make
a big deal about how great the gift is, and how wonderful and all good
you are for giving it to them. But if they don't exercise that free
will exactly how you want them too, then its time to open a can of god
like whoop-ass. (the interface will have a nice and big whoop-ass
button. Make sure to stay in character and press it often and
indiscriminately.)
And in the ultimate display of mercy, you, the epitome of the all good
god, can have untold millions of people put to the sentence of burning
forever in horrible skin melting agony. (again, a nice FMV). Praise
be your mercy.
Again, this is all a good christian role playing game, that teaches
the bible and lets the kids have fun at the same time. Nothing that
would harm or warp our children.
In short, I would rather have my kids play baldur's gate and D&D,
filled to the brim with pagan references, till they were blue in the
face, before I would sit there and tell a child of mine stories from
the bible, as if they were real. Tuck your kid into bed, sing a song,
tell the tale of the flood and how they'll burn in hell forever if
they mess up in life, and when they ask why are things this way, say
'god works in mysterious ways'. What they hey, end the night time
story telling with a reminder of armageddon. Then have your kid say a
prayer about what he would like to happen should he die before he
wakes up, then kiss that child of yours goodnight and wish him
pleasant dreams.
One poster said that the real danger of D&D arises only with those few
people who can't tell the difference between the make believe nature
of D&D and reality. Well, christianity is filled to the brim with
people who can't tell the difference between make believe and reality.
They are told a story, and they go around in the real world thinking
it is true, and they act accordingly. They aren't being good because
they are good people, instead, they are being good because they fear
going to hell, or because they desire to get into heaven. A bit like
pavlov's dog. And those are the values they pass on to their
children. Not to be good because 'goodness' is something in and of
itself to strive for, but because of the stick (hell) and the carrot
(heaven). Take away the stick and carrot, and many of them wouldn't
be such good people anymore. Perhaps this is why they are exactly the
types who are afraid of D&D, because they are the types who are
impressionable enough to actually think the orcs are really chasing
them.
LapTop
bds...@my-dejanews.com
cce...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> Please accept my apologies in advance for replying to many different posts
> with this one response. I felt this one summarized the objections many of you
> expressed separately.
>
> We were referred to Baldur's Gate because it specifically endorsed a
> roleplaying "game" that we have identified as harmful, especially for youth.
> While games like Quake are certainly offensive, our research has shown that
> their effect is transient, or at most no worse than what we get from
> television. That area is covered by friends who have much more influence than
> we will ever have. :) We chose to direct our efforts here to have the most
> effect possible.
>
I forgot this in a previous post... Have you ever played Diablo? ;-]
Brian Short
bds...@my-dejanews.com
"Board Moderator" <FairyQu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> What a total shock!!! Am I to be joined by the religious fanatics in my
> quest to boycott Baldur's Gate!!! Well, sometimes in politics you wind up
> making alliances with people that you never thought you would. Well we are
> after different things but if you are going to do this I think you should
> call Queer Nation and Act-Up so that there is a united front and we don't
> wind up picketing the same stores. We want wider coverage and with two
> politically different organizations showing support from both the right and
> the left we might actually get heard.
>
alive... oh well...
> Long Live Queen Jeff
<snip>
> Board Moderator
In an unmoderated newsgroup??? Wierd... if it makes you feel special though.
Brian Short
bds...@hotmail.com
ghaa...@geocities.com
cce...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> I represent a group called the Concerned Christians Watch Group. We have
> recently begun investigating video games for possible harmful content. We have
> found that your game not only promotes violence in general but that its use of
> the notorious Dungeons & Dragons roleplaying system is definitely harmful. The
> pagan symbolism is not acceptable in game that will be played by children.
Fags...xtians...what next, jeff?
Shadow Dweller http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/8101/
ghaa...@geocities.com http://people.weekend.ru/Ghaaroth/
2:5030/148...@fidonet.org UIN1371288
----/\---\/---/\---\/---/\---\/---/\---\/---/\---\/---/\----
"If We had to be something for "jesus christ",
We would be it's Last Breath..."
BELKE'TRE
----\/---/\---\/---/\---\/---/\---\/---/\---\/---/\---\/----
bds...@my-dejanews.com
I'll do an easy one
Drugs. Sex. Violence. Profane language. Sex. Violence. Death. Nuclear War.
Drugs. = ?
Brian Short
bds...@hotmail.com
In article <72v9iv$3vg$1...@news.tamu.edu>,
>
> I'm sure it would be amusing to concoct warning lists for various games and
> try to identify them by the lists...
>
> War. Magic. Demon Summoning. Killing. Deforestation. == Warcraft
> Kidnapping. Assassination. Explosions. Body Alteration. Mind Control.
> == Syndicate
>
> Course, you'd need longer lists, and overly dramatic warnings, but you get
> the basic idea... :)
>
> --
> Ryan Vurlicer
> http://http.tamu.edu/~rmv2498
bds...@my-dejanews.com
been playing the Star Wars Roleplaying game, and the guy might have though he
was being chased by Stormtroopers. Or he could have been playing Half-Life,
which is a game I've heard is one of the more frightening game's since Doom...
and he could have thought he was being chased by aliens, spec-ops forces, and
mysterious CIA agents... I would put the sole blame on the marijuana, and
whatever other drugs he may have been taking.
Brian Short
bds...@hotmail.com
In article <36531743...@qgraph.com>,
Seth Fultz <sdf...@qgraph.com> wrote:
> To me, D&D does not have the power to make good people bad. It does
> have the power to make bad people worse. Case in point:
>
> A friend of mine from college would frequenly play D&D with his friends
> in an old cave above the river running through campus. Marijuana would
> be going around quite liberally. One night apparently he had too much,
> because he started believing he was really and truly being chased by
> orcs. He ran out of the cave. His friends, concenrned for his safety,
> chased after him to make sure he didn't get hurt. Now, when you're
> chasing someone who's afraid he's being chased, you have to be careful.
> As soon as he saw that the people after him were within sight, he picked
> up a fallen branch and started swinging. Lots of people went home with
> stitches, and one person had to stay overnight in the hospital to see if
> his head wound was anything more than a concussion.
>
> Do I think D&D is evil because of this incident? No. The marijuana had
> more to do with it than anything. The particular scene he had in his
> head, being chased by D&D monsters, is the only thing I blame on D&D.
> It really had the power to amplify his delusion. Therefore D&D can take
> a bad situation and make it worse.
>
> Anyone who is well grounded in reality shouldn't have anything to worry
> about. With people who aren't so well bonded to real life, now I think
> some of those groups against D&D have a point. It can affect people who
> don't have a sharp grasp on what's real and what isn't. I still play
> D&D to this day, and don't think it has had a negative effect on me, but
> then I don't live and breathe it either like some people I know.
>
> Seth Fultz
> sdf...@qgraph.com
>
> Simutron10 wrote:
> >
> > It may not be a troll. I used to live next to a Christian bookstore. I
> > spotted a book in the window one day, and I went in and bought it out of
sheer
> > curiosity. The exact title escapes me, but it was something on the order of
> > "How Dungeons and Dragons is Used to Introduce Witchcraft and Paganism to
> > Children."
> >
> > It's theme was that D&D had been created and was being used specifically as
a
> > tool of satan to corrupt children, teach them to worship demons, and
generally
> > muck things up.
> >
> > Now, I've been playing in and running FRP campaigns since D&D was still just
> > "Chainmail." I must have missed the meeting about corrupting children and
> > sabotaging society. Anybody take notes? ;)
> >
> > To me, the most frightening thing in the world is the lengths to which
people
> > can push their self-delusions. It's even worse when combined with a fervor
to
> > impress those self-delusions on others in the name of "morality." Nothing
is
> > more dangerous or hard to understand than a zealot who "knows" he's right.
> >
> > You know, I may have just created the next major villian for GemStone.
Hrmm.
> >
> > Here's to hoping it's just a troll :)
> >
> > -Mike B.
> >
> > The above are my personal feelings, not those of Simutronics.
Toker
Seth Fultz <sdf...@qgraph.com> wrote in article
<36531743...@qgraph.com>...
Sean Matheis
observe...@my-dejanews.com saying:
>I did a search using this program for the Jeff Durbin you spoke of. It is
>somwhat of an irony that you would associate me with him, as our group stands
>outside the norm in taking no stance against homosexuality. While the laws of
>the Old Testament do prohibit homosexual acts and Jesus said that we must
>obey the laws of our Father, we believe that it is up to a loving God to
Then you are a really wacked out judge of "Christian" values, to fight
so strongly against the supposed anti-christian values of Baldur's
Gate, yet ignore the strong warnings in Leviticus.
>judge us for our actions. In other words, the Christian homosexual must find
>his own peace with God. We are not Catholic priests, to interpret God's will;
>each soul finds his own salvation.
>
>What we DO oppose is the misdirection of Americans, particularly youth, to
>pagan and potentially Satanic messages. Just as the devil may come at our
>souls through hatreds, so also may he twist us through false messengers.
These two paragraphs contradict each other. If each soul finds
his/her own salvation, and it is up to the Christian to find his/her
own peace with God, then let them. He/she will find his own way,
without your confusing, contradictory, and preaching attitudes.
Next thing we know, you'll be pushing the Chick tracts upon us.
And, you've shown some tech ability, to get your organization on the
net with a cable modem service.
Sakura
>We were referred to Baldur's Gate because it specifically endorsed a
>roleplaying "game" that we have identified as harmful, especially for youth.
>While games like Quake are certainly offensive, our research has shown that
>their effect is transient, or at most no worse than what we get from
>television. That area is covered by friends who have much more influence than
>we will ever have. :) We chose to direct our efforts here to have the most
>effect possible.
I would like to see your research. Moreover, I would like to see your
empirical data. Additionally, exactly what kind of test did you run? I
assume it was some type of Chi-Square/Kolmogorov-Smirnov, ANOVA/MANOVA, or
Regression test? What were the resultant statistics? How large was your
sample size? How was your sample drawn? Was your sample a random sample?
Who was part of the sample? What was the scope of the sample? Did you
collect the data via questionnaire? Are there samples of your questionnaire
available if a questionnaire was used?
>You are certainly correct that the problems youth face today are complex,
>with many roots. But we must begin somewhere, and it is our feeling that
>roleplaying games like this one can have a very harmful effect on
>impressionable minds. Many roleplayers are loners, already separate from
>Christian values and society. Dungeons and Dragons deepens that separation,
>creates a permanent rift in many cases. This is what we seek to prevent.
Ah . . . here we are at the crux of the matter . . . There's something wrong
if they don't follow "Christian" values? Does that mean there is something
wrong with those who do not subscribe to the Christian faith?
----
SKT
"If the shoe fits, get another one just like it."
-- George Carlin
Sakura
>pagan and potentially Satanic messages. Just as the devil may come at our
>souls through hatreds, so also may he twist us through false messengers.
Ah . . . the misdirection of Americans, neh?
They're the only ones worth saving?
Dantalas of Ash Grove
Which one?
Andreas Peter
--
Archie Dragon -=(UDIC)=-
andrea...@affenstall.netsurf.de
as you guessed it, replace "affenstall" with "munich" ;)
--
Part-time paladin to the great Lord British.
Novanus
Just remember: Do not call up any that you can not put down.
-The Case of Charles Dexter Ward
>millions of kids would have to learn their occultism from such unreliable
>sources as TV news, cartoons, and movies. Roleplaying games openned me
>up to the wonderful world of worshipping Cthulhu and attempting to revive
>him so that I can witness that great day when he rises up to devour the
>world, and I made so many friends in the cult. ;)
Ph-nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn! Cthulhu fhtagn!
---
Novanus
Board Moderator
group took me by total surprise but I'm not complaining. I will take my
allies where ever I can find them. Besides, this group doesn't seem to have
it in for homosexuals the way Catholics do. However, if any other group
want to join gays and christians against Baldur's Gate they are most
certainly welcome to join us on the picket line.
Long Live Queen Jeff
More Man Than You Will Ever Be
More Woman Than You Will Ever Get
Board Moderator
Jean Bulkeley wrote in message <36539353...@alaska.net>...
>Figured it was about time you showed up. What will the next group
protesting
>Baldur's Gate be?
>
Pier
Then we can play Baldur's Gate.
cce...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message <72ur45$750$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
>
>To the developers of the computer game Baldur's Gate:
>
>I represent a group called the Concerned Christians Watch Group. We have
>recently begun investigating video games for possible harmful content. We
have
>found that your game not only promotes violence in general but that its use
of
>the notorious Dungeons & Dragons roleplaying system is definitely harmful.
The
>pagan symbolism is not acceptable in game that will be played by children.
>
>Our organization has been in contact with the Southern Baptist Union and
also
>the Christian Coalition. We are planning to organize a boycott of major
retail
>chain stores such as Walmart which might otherwise carry this product. We
>insist that the pagan elements be removed or at the very least a clear
warning
>be placed on the box indicating that such content is within, so that
parents
>may make an informed decision regarding the game.
>
>Please contact us at cce...@hotmail.com so that this issue can be resolved
>quickly.
Michael Thompson
publications I have heard of
-I have heard you can read about some poor bastard getting flogged than
crucified alive.
-Another guy cut all the fingers of his guests off, them made them eat at
his table.
-In another chapter of this book of horrors, dozens of wild bears were sent
to maul children, and all the children done was call some old guy names.
-Not to mention the fornication references, pretty hot stuff, incest,
paedophilia, the lot.
Yep I hope RPG's never sink to that level.
Michael
joelm...@geocities.com
Darryl Okahata <dar...@sr.hp.com> wrote:
<snip some excellent tracking>
Impressive! I don't suppose you could confirm that the source is the same
as Jeff Durbin's could you? And I presume you've already informed his ISP
that he is harassing this group...
Joel Mathis
joelm...@geocities.com
nov...@hotmail.com (Novanus) wrote:
> >Since when is summoning demons a bad thing? And if it weren't for AD&D
>
> Just remember: Do not call up any that you can not put down.
Only wussies follow that rule. I constantly summon things I can't put
down and then just take them out for a ride in the country and let them
go out there.
While I'm on the subject, sorry about the whole Hanson thing. I really
should have known better...
Krud
>Our organization has been in contact with the Southern Baptist Union and also
>the Christian Coalition. We are planning to organize a boycott of major
retail
>chain stores such as Walmart which might otherwise carry this product. We
>insist that the pagan elements be removed or at the very least a clear
warning
>be placed on the box indicating that such content is within, so that parents
>may make an informed decision regarding the game.
How's this?
WARNING: This game contains mature themes, like trolls and dwarves and other
evil abominations that should be burned alive in the name of the Lord. Poke
your children's eyes out with a pointy stick before letting them play (unless
they float in which case they are a witch and are already damned). If your
children are accidentally exposed to this anti-christ of entertainment, send a
$50 donation to us and we will pray for them. For $100 we will perform a
remote exorcism over the internet (Pentium 2 with 64mb and Internet Explorer
4.0 required). Marylin Manson fans are excluded since they are already
rotting in hell.
-Krud
Krud
>It may not be a troll. I used to live next to a Christian bookstore. I
>spotted a book in the window one day, and I went in and bought it out of
sheer
>curiosity.
So we've got one person who wants gay characters in Interplay games and
another who doesn't want anything related to Satan or Satanism. Me thinks
someone is a little upset with Interplay.....
>The exact title escapes me, but it was something on the order of
>"How Dungeons and Dragons is Used to Introduce Witchcraft and Paganism to
>Children."
I thought that's what Halloween and Christmas were for.
-Krud
Krud
>
>
>We are relatively new to the Internet and do not as of yet have paid access.
Fuck off twit!
That means, "Hello, I love you" in Internet talk.
-Krud
Krud
>
>I suspect this is a certain troll we know and love in a bad disguise,
>especially since (1) an organization like this would have their own domain
>and not have to use hotmail for e-mail, especially not a hotmail account
>with numbers at the end;
It's Jeff "Butt-Plug" Durbin in disguise.
-Krud
Krud
>
>
>What purpose would it accomplish to post it to a newspaper which had never
>heard of the game in question? Here I am dealing with the target audience,
>which is what we wanted.
Why don't you bomb their office building? That's what all the other religious
terrorists do. Better get with the program, loser.
-Krud
Alma Engels
cce...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message <72vgo8$rnb$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
>
>>
>> Oh man some people really have problems, a Pagan symbol give me a
>> break, really doubt that kids nowadays play RPGs they usually watch
>> horror movies which are shown in the afternoon on television or play
>> cute games like Quake or Carmaggeddon, the times kids played hardcore
>> RPGs are pretty over, most of the people who play RPGs are adults
>> between 20 and 30 which have played pen and paper RPGs. And besides
>> that I think BG will have a 12+ rating or so. Besides that I doubt
>> that a kid below 9 or 10 can handle the stats stuff of an RPG
>> decently.
>
>Please accept my apologies in advance for replying to many different posts
>with this one response. I felt this one summarized the objections many of
you
>expressed separately.
>
>roleplaying "game" that we have identified as harmful, especially for
youth.
>While games like Quake are certainly offensive, our research has shown that
>their effect is transient, or at most no worse than what we get from
>television. That area is covered by friends who have much more influence
than
>we will ever have. :) We chose to direct our efforts here to have the most
>effect possible.
>
>with many roots. But we must begin somewhere, and it is our feeling that
>roleplaying games like this one can have a very harmful effect on
>impressionable minds. Many roleplayers are loners, already separate from
>Christian values and society. Dungeons and Dragons deepens that separation,
>creates a permanent rift in many cases. This is what we seek to prevent.
>
>http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
It is strange that you object to pagan elements in a game when Christianity
itself has incorporated so many pagan elements in itself. The celebrated
date for the birth of Jesus is one for it is most unlikely that Jesus was
born on that date which is very close to the Pagan winter solstice.
Beyond that why must a game be specifically Christian when there are other
religions present and some of them like Islam are growing rapidly.
Gerry Quinn
>On Wed, 18 Nov 1998 22:12:40 GMT, cce...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>Lets make a role playing game where you role play the christian god.
>You help your hero 'moses', with his army stack, destroy entire cities
>of people who don't think 'you're the man'. Of course, you have to
>kill all the children too. This will be graphically portrayed, of
>course, since it doesn't count as violence that would hurt our
>children, since it is in the bible and all.
>
>You can flood everyone too! (this can be depicted as a nice FMV with
>a bunch of little babies drowning). Again, since its in the bible,
>its ok to graphically portray these scenes to young children. After
>all, they've already read about it in sunday school.
>
[--]
Hey, I really enjoyed Populous 2...
- Gerry
----------------------------------------------------------
ger...@indigo.ie (Gerry Quinn)
----------------------------------------------------------
joelm...@geocities.com
"Michael Thompson" <mich...@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
> I agree with Brian, we can't have RPG's sinking to a level like some
> publications I have heard of
>
> -I have heard you can read about some poor bastard getting flogged than
> crucified alive.
> -Another guy cut all the fingers of his guests off, them made them eat at
> his table.
> -In another chapter of this book of horrors, dozens of wild bears were sent
> to maul children, and all the children done was call some old guy names.
> -Not to mention the fornication references, pretty hot stuff, incest,
> paedophilia, the lot.
Curse you Oscar Wilde for making sure Salome come up in every discussion of
impropper things in the bible. I bet it was his homosexual revenge on the
church ;)
Joel Mathis
LOTcyclops
Does AD&D influence anything? Well, I'll bet it influences registrations for
shareware games!
Awhile back I wrote a cutsy little story-game garnering to a moral crowd,
essentially the types who would speak against role playing games with AD&D or
AD&D-like aspects.
Downloads: 300 Registrations: ZERO
So much for the Christian Coalition!
So much for cutsy games. :)
Prior to this, I made my 5 role playing games that were rather weak in rpg
aspects, little if no demons, and no ability to be the bad guy - basically
making you be the good guy.
Only Ultizurk 3 got some attention, as it had a little more of the fun stuff
in it, but still only a fraction of what would make a real role playing game.
Perhaps it is no co-incidence, then, that just yesterday I finished the STEAL
rountines in ULTIZURK IV: Lord of the Cyclops, and am now working on the dead
people graphics!
Three different sorts of summoned demons are likely to be needed against the
nightmare-inducing cyclops. I myself star in the game as OL' KILLER - a far
worse influence than AD&D :)
UZ4 goes way beyond AD&D influence and has far more of a "Lovecraftian" feel
to it, with all the role-playing aspects a player ever wanted to see.
It will rock! It will roll! It will rule!
No longer catering to the "moral masses", I'm instead catering to decent people
like the ones on this newsgroup, who have the intellect to know, for example,
that a noble and moral Paladin is out to defy, not support, evil. And uz4
supports those kinds of characters as well.
-Dr. Dungeon, In The Castle of The Mach Gryphon
-----== Look out for the mother of all shareware rpg's ==---
Ultizurk IV: Lord of the Cyclops = coming soon!
mar...@bsy.de
>
>> >
>> > We are relatively new to the Internet and do not as of yet have paid access.
>>
>> Bull. I got my church going for free better than what you are
>> demonstrating.
>
>Unfortunately, you aren't a member of our congregation. :) We did the best
>that we could.
>
>
>>
>> > (3)
>> > > there is no "Southern Baptist Union";
>> >
>> > That's funny, I have several friends within it. It may not have a large
>> > profile, but it does exist, I assure you.
>>
>> Troll, you are thinking of the Southern Baptist _Council_. There is no
>> _Union_.
>
>I'm not thinking of anything but a small organization of concerned Baptists.
>This is not a national campaign...yet. We have to work with who we know and
>expand from there.
>
>
>>
>> > (6) they would be smart enough to not post on usenet in an attempt
>> > > to reach one individual;
>> >
>> > You've apparently never heard of the "open letter" approach.
>>
>> I have. Posting to usenet is not an open letter approach. Mailing it to
>> a newspaper would have been.
>
>What purpose would it accomplish to post it to a newspaper which had never
>heard of the game in question? Here I am dealing with the target audience,
>which is what we wanted.
>
>
>
>>
>> > and (8) the whole thing smacks of someone who doesn't
>> > > understand politically active religious groups on every level.
>> >
>> > It's interesting you think so. Any pointers you have for us will be gladly
>> > received, I assure you. All we have is our faith and our desire to see a
>> > change in this society.
>>
>> Now this is more like it, but its too little too late. Your initial
>> post demonstrated just how much of a troll you are.
>
>I'm sorry you think so. Thank you for helping me find out what a troll was,
>though. :)
>
>To respond to the rest of your post:
>
>I did a search using this program for the Jeff Durbin you spoke of. It is
>somwhat of an irony that you would associate me with him, as our group stands
>outside the norm in taking no stance against homosexuality. While the laws of
>the Old Testament do prohibit homosexual acts and Jesus said that we must
>obey the laws of our Father, we believe that it is up to a loving God to
>judge us for our actions. In other words, the Christian homosexual must find
>his own peace with God. We are not Catholic priests, to interpret God's will;
>each soul finds his own salvation.
>
>What we DO oppose is the misdirection of Americans, particularly youth, to
>pagan and potentially Satanic messages. Just as the devil may come at our
>souls through hatreds, so also may he twist us through false messengers.
You are just a bunch of fascist.
Nobody tells me what to think.
Overall - you suck!
Martin
Fortran Dragon
> It ran me $40 and change (list price was $39.99).
FYI: The Wiz collection ran me $29.99 at Software Etc., the same
price as list price on Interplay's website.
--
Fortran Dragon -==(UDIC)==- | "There isn't enough darkness in the world
-=[MT]=- | to quench the light of one small candle."
Hidalgo Trading Company: <http://home.earthlink.net/~fortran/index.html>
rgcud FAQ: <http://home.earthlink.net/~fortran/faq/rgcudfaq.html>
LOTcyclops
> > place in this world; the Satanic references are simply not acceptable>
Sad part is the ancient druids, as well as witches, were basically early
naturalists - even scientific types. In fact, modern witchcraft - real
witchcraft has stated again and again that it has nothing to do with demons,
the devil, etc.
Well, I guess I'll be putting witches and satanic stuff in Ultizurk 4 as well
:)
P.S. I suppose the INQUISITION was supported by God???
mar...@bsy.de
Hi
I'm from germany and just want to tell you
that your motives may be OK, but
your way is the same as the fascist had 50 years ago,
when they burned books and killed millions of people beacause they
where considered "harmful". Now you burn games !
You are no better than them.
Martin Holc
ski...@my-dejanews.com
> >I represent a group called the Concerned Christians Watch Group. We have
> >recently begun investigating video games for possible harmful content. We
> have
> >found that your game not only promotes violence in general but that its use
> of
> >the notorious Dungeons & Dragons roleplaying system is definitely harmful.
> The
> >pagan symbolism is not acceptable in game that will be played by children.
> >
> >Our organization has been in contact with the Southern Baptist Union and
> also
> >the Christian Coalition. We are planning to organize a boycott of major
> retail
> >chain stores such as Walmart which might otherwise carry this product. We
> >insist that the pagan elements be removed or at the very least a clear
> warning
> >be placed on the box indicating that such content is within, so that
> parents
> >may make an informed decision regarding the game.
Concerned Christians Watch Group,
There is news group called alt.religon.cult Take your ignorant discussions
there.
This is a Game forum, we talk about games. How any twisted, screwed in the
head person could possibly be warped enough to find a anti-christian attitide
in a game is pretty messed up. The only things game makers want to do is 1)
Make Money 2) Make a Fun Game. Thats it. Nothing else.
>the notorious Dungeons & Dragons roleplaying system is definitely harmful.
Have you even read a DnD book? Its a simple game about Fantasy Adventure. You
use your imagination to come up with adventure. Thats it. Same as
improvizational acting. Nothing else. A christian will have christian
adventures, a jew will have jew adventures, and yes, a satanist will probably
have satanist adventures. Take a hint, educate yourself before you comment so
ignorantly on a subject.
The only place you will see un-christain themes in in your own pathetic
twisted understanding of something you saw on the news or read. You must a
live a sad paranoid life with such misguided understanding to your devotion.
Its people like you make me embarressed to be called a Chrisitan.
Shut your mouth before anything else drips out.
MdmeDis
>
> > >
> > > We are relatively new to the Internet and do not as of yet have paid access.
> >
> > Bull. I got my church going for free better than what you are
> > demonstrating.
>
> Unfortunately, you aren't a member of our congregation. :) We did the best
> that we could.
>
>
> >
> > > (3)
> > > > there is no "Southern Baptist Union";
> > >
> > > That's funny, I have several friends within it. It may not have a large
> > > profile, but it does exist, I assure you.
> >
> > Troll, you are thinking of the Southern Baptist _Council_. There is no
> > _Union_.
>
> I'm not thinking of anything but a small organization of concerned Baptists.
> This is not a national campaign...yet. We have to work with who we know and
> expand from there.
>
>
> >
> > > (6) they would be smart enough to not post on usenet in an attempt
> > > > to reach one individual;
> > >
> > > You've apparently never heard of the "open letter" approach.
> >
> > I have. Posting to usenet is not an open letter approach. Mailing it to
> > a newspaper would have been.
>
> What purpose would it accomplish to post it to a newspaper which had never
> heard of the game in question? Here I am dealing with the target audience,
> which is what we wanted.
Mdme gazes at him. How come you missed Ultima VIII : Pagan? Flaming
pentagram and all. It's been out there corrupting American youth for
half a decade. Why, I myself have fallen victim to its terrible pull,
becoming part of the group of its worshippers (do visit
rec.games.computer.ultima.dragons) and from thence into the position I
now occupy, virtual purveyor of flesh.
Besides, we haven't had a troll worthy of his salt in a while now and
frankly, I'm trying to drum up business...
--
The Madam, Disoriented.
-==(UDIC)==-
D'ya ever have those days when you think
maybe its you, and not the rest of the world
that's fucked up?
Todd Mulholland
LOTcyclops wrote:
> > > It is bad enough that long-dead pagan cults such as druidism have
> > > place in this world; the Satanic references are simply not acceptable>
> Sad part is the ancient druids, as well as witches, were basically early
> naturalists - even scientific types. In fact, modern witchcraft - real
> witchcraft has stated again and again that it has nothing to do with demons,
> the devil, etc.
the REALLY sad part is there are legends of Jesus going to avalon (the olde name
for regions of england) to study with the druids. If you read the precepts
(beliefs) of the druids, NOTHING in them contradicts anything that Jesus taught.
There is even a song (hymn?) in england to that effect...
"and did the holy lamb of God
walk upon england's boundless green..."
I'm not sure if these are the exact words... Anyone know?
shadracht
MdmeDis
says...
Our roleplaying games are fiction; fantasy, and by and large depict
overcoming the evil demons. You actually believe your supernatural being
exists, and further more seek to remove my freedom of choice in the
matter. I am perfectly happy for you to have your beliefs, to express
them even though I think your kind of delusion being taught to an
impressionable mind is infinitely more harmful than playing pretend
games. The evidence I present for the harm done by your beliefs are the
countless millions massacred in the name of your supernatural being in
the endless religious wars, starting with the Crusades, working through
such jolly little events as the Spanish Inquisition right up to the so-
called Holocaust. All in the name of Christ.
The thing I do object to is your insistence that my books and games be
taken away from me. How would you feel if we attempted to close down all
bible publishers because we felt you were trying to influence our
children to believe in a supernatural being? Tell me all you like that
what I'm doing is wrong - present all the facts you can, but don't try
to deny me my right to choose. Remember *exactly* what salvation is, and
ask yourself if forcing it upon people was what God had in mind.
Assuming you are not a troll, asking you to appreciate that this
particular NG has rules that devote it to discussion of RPG's and not
religion. I'm again crossposting you to r.g.c.u.d, where you will be
given a 'warm' reception, but where anything is on topic.
--
Disoriented Dragon
Seth Fultz
got really down into it, I could probably come up with some way to
contest those based on the fact that the people playing them usually get
completely obsessed with them. Something about the game, instead of a
theme within it, becoming their idol.
My post was a joke, however, and I really got a laugh out of some of the
responses people mailed me. While there was some truth to my original
post, it's the game player, not the game that makes the difference.
I've really gotta see that Doom clone, though. That sounds like
something that'll keep me laughing for hours. If anybody knows
what/where it is, please email me!
Seth Fultz
sdf...@qgraph.com
Dustin Du Cane wrote:
>
> >Find me a single computer or console game title that doesn't break a
> >single Christian teaching. Any title will do, no matter the audience
> >it's geared for.
> -
> Minelayer and Solitaire! :-)
> Included with Windows 95!
>
> Sorry about that but you're right no complex games uphold Christian values
> completely.
>
> Dustin
>
> BTW I heard about a Doom clone where you ran around converting monsters with
> crosses and bibles and prayer. Forgot the name though.
LewisZephyr
wrote:
>To me, D&D does not have the power to make good people bad. It does
>have the power to make bad people worse. Case in point:
>
>A friend of mine from college would frequenly play D&D with his friends
>in an old cave above the river running through campus. Marijuana would
>be going around quite liberally. One night apparently he had too much,
>because he started believing he was really and truly being chased by
>orcs. He ran out of the cave. His friends, concenrned for his safety,
>chased after him to make sure he didn't get hurt. Now, when you're
>chasing someone who's afraid he's being chased, you have to be careful.
>As soon as he saw that the people after him were within sight, he picked
>up a fallen branch and started swinging. Lots of people went home with
>stitches, and one person had to stay overnight in the hospital to see if
>his head wound was anything more than a concussion.
>
Sorry guy,,, That Marijuana, Weed etc.... had something else in it.
I was an avid pot smoker in the past.... And Ive never experienced
anything like that via myself or any of my peers (you know peer
preassure).
Ive also done many other drugs in my past..
It does sound like the guy got ahold of some pot laced with PCP or
some derivitive.....
>Do I think D&D is evil because of this incident? No. The marijuana had
>more to do with it than anything. The particular scene he had in his
>head, being chased by D&D monsters, is the only thing I blame on D&D.
>It really had the power to amplify his delusion. Therefore D&D can take
>a bad situation and make it worse.
This guy could have had the same reaction from reading a Clancey Novel
and thought some CIA spys were chaseing him.... Or even watching an
X-files..... the Aliens were comeing to get him.....
This guy needs a reality check.... and to put down the drugs....
some people and drugs do not mix well...
>
>Anyone who is well grounded in reality shouldn't have anything to worry
>about. With people who aren't so well bonded to real life, now I think
>some of those groups against D&D have a point. It can affect people who
>don't have a sharp grasp on what's real and what isn't. I still play
>D&D to this day, and don't think it has had a negative effect on me, but
>then I don't live and breathe it either like some people I know.
I do go back to my last point.... For those individuals who are not
well grounded.... anything really could set them off.... A movie,
book, tv show, hell even a story someone read to him/her......
Just had to speak.... sometimes I cant stop myself.
Peace
Lewzephyr
>
>Seth Fultz
>sdf...@qgraph.com
>
>
>Simutron10 wrote:
>>
>> It may not be a troll. I used to live next to a Christian bookstore. I
>> spotted a book in the window one day, and I went in and bought it out of sheer
>> curiosity. The exact title escapes me, but it was something on the order of
>> "How Dungeons and Dragons is Used to Introduce Witchcraft and Paganism to
>> Children."
>>
>> It's theme was that D&D had been created and was being used specifically as a
>> tool of satan to corrupt children, teach them to worship demons, and generally
>> muck things up.
>>
>> Now, I've been playing in and running FRP campaigns since D&D was still just
>> "Chainmail." I must have missed the meeting about corrupting children and
>> sabotaging society. Anybody take notes? ;)
>>
>> To me, the most frightening thing in the world is the lengths to which people
>> can push their self-delusions. It's even worse when combined with a fervor to
>> impress those self-delusions on others in the name of "morality." Nothing is
>> more dangerous or hard to understand than a zealot who "knows" he's right.
>>
>> You know, I may have just created the next major villian for GemStone. Hrmm.
>>
>> Here's to hoping it's just a troll :)
>>
>> -Mike B.
>>
>> The above are my personal feelings, not those of Simutronics.
Peace,
Lewzephyr
Ignorance is a blessing, for it can be corrected.
Stupidity is a sin, for it can only breed.
LewisZephyr
On Thu, 19 Nov 1998 02:05:21 GMT, "Toker" <astro...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
>I think the guy probably had LSD and was tripping.
>
>Seth Fultz <sdf...@qgraph.com> wrote in article
><36531743...@qgraph.com>...
>> To me, D&D does not have the power to make good people bad. It does
>> have the power to make bad people worse. Case in point:
>>
>> A friend of mine from college would frequenly play D&D with his friends
>> in an old cave above the river running through campus. Marijuana would
>> be going around quite liberally. One night apparently he had too much,
>> because he started believing he was really and truly being chased by
>> orcs. He ran out of the cave. His friends, concenrned for his safety,
>> chased after him to make sure he didn't get hurt. Now, when you're
>> chasing someone who's afraid he's being chased, you have to be careful.
>> As soon as he saw that the people after him were within sight, he picked
>> up a fallen branch and started swinging. Lots of people went home with
>> stitches, and one person had to stay overnight in the hospital to see if
>> his head wound was anything more than a concussion.
Peace,