PC gamers, know the roots of RTS games: TecnoSoft's HERZOG ZWEI on SEGA GENESIS / MD
AirRaid
Conquer series Red Alert, WarCraft series, Starcraft series, Total
Annihilation, Warzone 2100,
Jagged Alliance series, Tiberian Sun, Conflict Zone, Red Alert 2,
Kohan, Age of Empires series, Homeworld, Warlords: Battlecry, LoTR:
Battle For Middle Earth series,
Star Wars: Empire at War, and countless others
you should know the roots of all RTS games: It's really Herzog Zwei,
made & developed by Tecno Soft in Japan. called Tecno Soft *or* Techno
Soft in the U.S., sometimes with the space sometimes without ) in 1989,
published by SEGA for the SEGA MegaDrive / Genesis console. Herzog
Zwei came out in Japan in 1989, and then early 1990 in the United
States.
http://www.wolfgames.com/mdherzog.JPG
http://www.discountgames.org/images/Herzog%20Zwei%20BS.jpg
Herzog Zwei was a real-time strategy game with arcade/shmup elements.
when i say shmup i don't mean first-person shooters (i,e, Doom, Quake)
that everyone on the PC knows, i'm talking about overhead shmups like
Xevious, Ikari Warriors, Thunder Force II (also by Technosoft /
Tecnosoft), Aleste, Raiden, Truxton/Tetsujin, Granada, etc.
Herzog Zwei, although it had these arcade/shooter/shmup elements, was
very much a strategy game, and realtime.
Herzog Zwei came out LONG before Command & Conquer, and even before
Dune 2 / II.
Most PC gamers only acknowledge Dune 2/II as the first RTS game. that
simply is not true. It was Herzog Zwei that started the whole RTS
genre. even though Herzog Zwei was not technically the first RTS game
ever (Herzog by Tecnosoft came out before on the MSX computer in Japan
in 1988, before the sequel, Herzog Zwei, and a game called 'Cytron
Masters' was apparently the very first RTS game, back in the early
1980s on one of the Atari machines, i know nothing about it) but
Herzog Zwei is where everything launched from, because it was more
widely available, modern enough / fast enough to make a massive
impression on those developers (like Westwood) that would later take
RTS to the PC with games like Dune 2, C&C, Red Alert, and create a
huge genre out of it.
there are almost NO RTS games that match the frantic pace of Herzog
Zwei and the almost totally unique aspect in that you ARE actually a
unit yourself, a transformable mecha / fighter-cargo jet, not just some
mouse cursor / pointer on the screen.
there was a somewhat recent homebrew / shareware / freeware
RTS/shoot'em up game made for the PC that was totally inspiried by
Herzog Zwei. it's called Rapid Aerial Deployment, and while it is not
nearly as good as Herzog Zwei, the developer did their best to pay
homage to the first significant RTS game, Herzog Zwei.
-Rapid Aerial Deployment quite is playable.
looking ahead, I am *so* looking forward to Supreme Commander on the
PC. it is the closest game I have ever, EVER seen to what I had always
imagined a 3D polygonal, map zoomable Herzog Zwei-like game could be
like. while Supreme Commander has little in commen with Herzog Zwei
and more in commen with Total Annihilation because its the same main
person in charge of development (AFAIK), and Supreme Commander is said
to be the spiritual sequel / successor to Total Annihilation.
Supreme Commander has to be, now, my most anticipated game for any
platform, after watching both the teaser trailer and the gameplay
demonstration.
trailer - http://www.tinyurl.com/zlr2m
demonstration - http://www.tinyurl.com/om3tc
i know this cross posted to several off-topic groups, but so be it,
and, my spelling, grammer, etc is not exactly, great. again, so be it.
i wanted to make this a permanent recognition of Herzog Zwei as the
first RTS game of any real value, for all time.
now, bring on Supreme Commander!
AirRaid
everything i remember about the beginnings of the survival horror
games. good point riku
stu
predating alone in the dark and its wildass camera angles by many
years...
there was also halloween and texas chainsaw massacre for the atari
2600...... spaltterhouse in the arcades....
-stu
MuuMiMan
<AirRa...@gmail.com> DUMPED HIS GHEYE SHIET ON MY COMPUTAR
SCREEN!!!!:
>
>you should know the roots of all RTS games: It's really Herzog Zwei,
>made & developed by Tecno Soft in Japan. called Tecno Soft *or* Techno
>Soft in the U.S., sometimes with the space sometimes without ) in 1989,
> published by SEGA for the SEGA MegaDrive / Genesis console. Herzog
>Zwei came out in Japan in 1989, and then early 1990 in the United
>States.
Jesus cares.
Jesus also knows that what actually solidified the genre into what it
essentially is today was Dune 2, while the first C&C was what largely
popularized it to the masses. History is written by the winners,
yaddayadda, etc.
--
The Melodramatic MuuMi
"I wuv fishes"
- Bob-The-Vasudan, Commander of the 11th Battlegroup
Official supporter of Vasudan Grand Admiral Bob:
http://koti.mbnet.fi/muumi/Bob.jpg
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ICQ: 26741225
E-Mail: muum...@MEmbnet.fiHERE!
Remove the nospam thingy for valid E-mail adress.
MuuMiMan
<yakum...@gmail.com> DUMPED HIS GHEYE SHIET ON MY COMPUTAR
SCREEN!!!!:
Is this some shitty attempt at gauging replies, or is Google Groups
the new AOL of the Usenet?
Ajay Tanwar
somebody was to light a stick of dynamite, then call the guy and
hold the burning fuse up to the phone and say:
> i remember survival horror games as being friday the 13th on the
> c64 predating alone in the dark and its wildass camera angles by
> many years...
The Friday the 13th game I remember on the Commodore 64 was just a
simple top down wander through the woods with randomly placed items
and no narrative. Hardly a precursor to Alone in the Dark.
As far as cinematic horror goes, the first I can recall is Project:
Firestart for the C64. Limited ammo, numerous aliens, having to
explore and exploit the environment, gruesome cutscenes (well, as
gruesome as you can get with 16 colors). Excellent game, but I never
managed to finish it.
--
Ajay Tanwar | ajta...@yahoo.com
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people
in large groups." -Despair.com
Vincenzo Beretta
> predating alone in the dark and its wildass camera angles by many
> years...
And "Forbidden Forest" for c64, one of the scariest games ever.
Neil Cerutti
What we need is convincing evidence that the designers of Dune 2
were even aware of Herzog Zwei. Just because one came before the
other doesn't mean they weren't invented seperately.
--
Neil Cerutti
Inviato da X-Privat.Org - Registrazione gratuita http://www.x-privat.org/join.php
pigdos
controlling multiple units simulatneously? If it didn't then I don't think
it can even qualify as an RTS.
To tell the truth, there's very little strategy involved in RTS's. It would
seem to me they are more tactical than strategic. At the most you're
controlling maybe a thousand units on maps that are maybe 25 square miles in
size, so the conflicts rarely involve forces larger than battalions.
--
Doug
"AirRaid" <AirRa...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1147665409.1...@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Luc The Perverse
news:8x4ag.76906$H71....@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
> Um, how can you play an RTS without a mouse? Did this supposed RTS involve
> controlling multiple units simulatneously? If it didn't then I don't think
> it can even qualify as an RTS.
>
> To tell the truth, there's very little strategy involved in RTS's. It
> would seem to me they are more tactical than strategic. At the most you're
> controlling maybe a thousand units on maps that are maybe 25 square miles
> in size, so the conflicts rarely involve forces larger than battalions.
Blizzard identified this and forced you to be more strategic in War III.
It is actually kind of annoying. There are so many units I forget what they
are all good for.
--
LTP
:)
Luc The Perverse
in message news:247h625eqmt51rfdf...@4ax.com...
>>there was also halloween and texas chainsaw massacre for the atari
>>2600...... spaltterhouse in the arcades....
>>
>
> Is this some shitty attempt at gauging replies, or is Google Groups
> the new AOL of the Usenet?
Unlike AOL, Google doesn't like to be considered Evil.
I have tried to complain about their default reply option (with no quoting)
but have found no way to give feedback
--
LTP
:)
Justisaur
AirRaid wrote:
> everyone who played / plays RTS games.
RTSs suck. TBSs were killed by RTSs, yet were far more fun, and far
more "S". So now we can all hate Herzog Zwei, instead of Dune 2. Yea!
> Starcraft series, Total
> Annihilation
O.k. Those were o.k.
> Jagged Alliance series
IIRC Jagged Alliance was nither 'RT' or 'S'...
- Justisaur
Down with the 'RT's! All Hail Master of Magic, Best of the S's!
MuuMiMan
<N...@nowhere.com> DUMPED HIS GHEYE SHIET ON MY COMPUTAR SCREEN!!!!:
>
>To tell the truth, there's very little strategy involved in RTS's. It would
>seem to me they are more tactical than strategic. At the most you're
>controlling maybe a thousand units on maps that are maybe 25 square miles in
>size, so the conflicts rarely involve forces larger than battalions.
Aaaand neext... Stay tuned for when Captain Obvious tells us what
color the sky is!
Well, yes, the genre's name is a misnomer, and scare many games
belonging to it are even only tactical in the broadest sense of the
term. If I had to guess, I'd say the term evolved out of the simple
need to differentiate between the traditional turn-based games, thus
the reason why it isn't perhaps the most accurate reflection of the
content. But eh, it's all nitpickping in the end, and if you'd start
labelling things now as Real Time Tactical games you'd only confuse
people as that's usually the term for the "real time, but without any
economy" -niché of RTS games - Stuff like Myth and Ground Control,
for example ;-P
...Also, why is AGSC the only alt. -group this was posted in? =P
Zealot The Crazy Lui
ihatespamandyoumustremov...@mbnet.fi (MuuMiMan)
wrote:
>Aaaand neext... Stay tuned for when Captain Obvious tells us what
>color the sky is!
Is captain Obvious cooler than Captain Oblivious?
>Well, yes, the genre's name is a misnomer, and scare many games
>belonging to it are even only tactical in the broadest sense of the
>term. If I had to guess, I'd say the term evolved out of the simple
>need to differentiate between the traditional turn-based games, thus
>the reason why it isn't perhaps the most accurate reflection of the
>content. But eh, it's all nitpickping in the end, and if you'd start
>labelling things now as Real Time Tactical games you'd only confuse
>people as that's usually the term for the "real time, but without any
>economy" -niché
There's no é in niche. It'd be pronounced "knee shay" then :P (rather
than neesh)
> of RTS games - Stuff like Myth and Ground Control,
>for example ;-P
Or...
>...Also, why is AGSC the only alt. -group this was posted in? =P
We're special! :)
--
"No I'm saying that I'm a cow dung." - Stephen "Suupernuubie" Ung
"Eat a bag of hell." - Cyric The Mad
"Yes - I need red hot gay loving" - LTP
MSN:ktwil...@hotmail.com (BUT DON'T SEND E-MAIL!) YIM: ktwilson AIM: YahooKyleW
Zealot the Crazy Lui
Grand 16-Star General and overall director of AGSC operations for the Pronoun Army(and webmaster)
http://pronounarmy.homestead.com/ http://thirty-five-mil.blogspot.com/
re-vamped sig 7D6h.4h.5h
AirRaid
control pad, not a mouse, and you could only control one unit at a
time, but that does not mean Herzog Zwei wasn't an RTS.
I will agree though, that RTS games are more tactical than strategic.
Herzog Zwei was different in that, you actually were one of the units
in battle. you carried your forces to where ever they needed to be.
you fought with them, not just commanded them.
there ARE actually many PC gamers / RTS gamers that know, realize and
accept that Herzog Zwei was the real starting point for all RTS games,
including Dune 2. while Dune 2 was different, and while Westwood had
defined their own style of RTS game which many followed, I think even
Westwood has acknowledged that Herzog Zwei was the inspiration for
thier first RTS games, Dune 2 and C&C.
With Herzog Zwei, its 4 megabits of ROM and the limited processing
capabilities of the Sega MegaDrive - Genesis hardware, each side could
have a max of 50 units made, placed on the map. 100 units max between
the two sides. (red and blue). even then, with 100 units (even 70-90)
there was slowdown. the Genesis was only using a 7.6 Mhz 68000
processor and a very limited VDP (video display processor) that could
handle a limited number of objects on screen at once. IBM PCs with
386s or 486s were far more powerful.
Ajay Tanwar
somebody was to light a stick of dynamite, then call the guy and
hold the burning fuse up to the phone and say:
> i remember survival horror games as being friday the 13th on the
> c64 predating alone in the dark and its wildass camera angles by
> many years...
The Friday the 13th game I remember on the Commodore 64 was just a
Ajay Tanwar
somebody was to light a stick of dynamite, then call the guy and
hold the burning fuse up to the phone and say:
> i remember survival horror games as being friday the 13th on the
The Friday the 13th game I remember on the Commodore 64 was just a
klg...@mailinator.com
Two good articles on the history and development of RTS's can be found
here:
http://pc.ign.com/articles/700/700747p1.html
(choosing Broderbund's The Ancient Art of War [DOS, 1984] as the
start)
http://www.gamespot.com/gamespot/features/all/real_time/
(choosing Herzog Zwei as the starting point)
K
Master Baiter
"AirRaid" <AirRa...@gmail.com>
???????:1147733941....@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
> I think even Westwood has acknowledged that Herzog Zwei was
> the inspiration for thier first RTS games, Dune 2 and C&C.
What happened to Dune (or Dune 1 if you insist)? How can a sequal be the
first, skipping its own predecessor?
Must be some Tech-No-Logic-al thingie.
John Doe
>
> To tell the truth, there's very little strategy involved in RTS's.
It's there, extremely deep strategy, it just isn't realized. The
problem is the interface, some/most people enjoy arcade strategy.
But you can turn a typical RTS game into a strategy game by
automating the interface.
>
> It would seem to me they are more tactical than strategic. At the
> most you're controlling maybe a thousand units on maps that are
> maybe 25 square miles in size, so the conflicts rarely involve
> forces larger than battalions.
You don't have to control a thousand units.
Zealot The Crazy Lui
<mas...@baiter.org> wrote:
>What happened to Dune (or Dune 1 if you insist)? How can a sequal be the
>first, skipping its own predecessor?
Dune (1) was an adventure-ey ish game that was a completely different
style from Dune 2. It kinda sorta had elements of strategy in that you
had to manage spice resources and armies, but it was fairly
rudimentary. I really liked that game...
>Must be some Tech-No-Logic-al thingie.
Err, not exactly. :)
Knight37
AirRaid wrote:
> everyone who played / plays RTS games, including Dune 2, Command &
> Conquer series Red Alert, WarCraft series, Starcraft series, Total
> Annihilation, Warzone 2100,
> Jagged Alliance series, Tiberian Sun, Conflict Zone, Red Alert 2,
> Kohan, Age of Empires series, Homeworld, Warlords: Battlecry, LoTR:
> Battle For Middle Earth series,
> Star Wars: Empire at War, and countless others
Jagged Alliance? You are obviously a n00b. That game is a turn based
strategy game, d00f.
> you should know the roots of all RTS games: It's really Herzog Zwei,
> made & developed by Tecno Soft in Japan. called Tecno Soft *or* Techno
Bzzzzzzzzt. Wrong. Ancient Art of War predates Herzog by a long shot.
> Herzog Zwei was a real-time strategy game with arcade/shmup elements.
Then it really wasn't like those other games you listed above at all,
really.
> Most PC gamers only acknowledge Dune 2/II as the first RTS game. that
> simply is not true.
Dune 2 definitely is the first game that defined the gameplay formula
we all know as RTS today. While Ancient Art of War was the first
strategy game in real-time, Dune 2 is what really defined the genre.
Not some stupid arcade/action/strategy hybrid console game that almost
no one has played.
> It was Herzog Zwei that started the whole RTS genre.
Wrong. There was no such thing as an RTS "genre" until after C&C and
Warcraft came out. That's why all the games that came out after C&C
were called "Clone and Conquers". If you never heard that term before,
you're an RTS n00b.
> impression on those developers (like Westwood) that would later take
> RTS to the PC with games like Dune 2, C&C, Red Alert, and create a
> huge genre out of it.
Exactly. Westwood and Blizzard created the genre. Not some Japanese
developer.
> there are almost NO RTS games that match the frantic pace of Herzog
> Zwei and the almost totally unique aspect in that you ARE actually a
> unit yourself, a transformable mecha / fighter-cargo jet, not just some
> mouse cursor / pointer on the screen.
Then it's not really an RTS, it's an action game with strategy
elements.
> looking ahead, I am *so* looking forward to Supreme Commander on the
> PC. it is the closest game I have ever, EVER seen to what I had always
> imagined a 3D polygonal, map zoomable Herzog Zwei-like game could be
> like.
Umm, it's Total Annihilation 2. It's basically the same game as TA just
with much nicer graphics and more stuff in it.
> while Supreme Commander has little in commen with Herzog Zwei
Exactly. Very little in common, like all the other RTS games out there.
> and more in commen with Total Annihilation because its the same main
> person in charge of development (AFAIK), and Supreme Commander is said
> to be the spiritual sequel / successor to Total Annihilation.
It's spelled COMMON. Get a dictionary. You console kiddies need to
learn how to write.
> Supreme Commander has to be, now, my most anticipated game for any
> platform, after watching both the teaser trailer and the gameplay
> demonstration.
You are easily impressed. It's pretty easy to make a non-interactive
video that looks great. I'll believe it when I can actually play it on
my own PC.
> i know this cross posted to several off-topic groups, but so be it,
because you're a troll.
> and, my spelling, grammer, etc is not exactly, great. again, so be it.
Understatement of the year.
> i wanted to make this a permanent recognition of Herzog Zwei as the
> first RTS game of any real value, for all time.
You're wrong opinion has been duly noted and filed in the proper place,
File 13.
> now, bring on Supreme Commander!
At least we can agree on this much.
pigdos
I think we can still say Westwood developed the first RTS just because they
were the first to allow you to control multiple units (thus contributing to
the STRATEGY aspect of RTS). By your reasoning, Gauntlet was an RTS. How
much strategy can you implement with ONE unit? Duh. Another aspect of
strategy is controlling multiple units with different abilities, did Herzog
Zwei have this feature?
--
Doug
"AirRaid" <AirRa...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1147733941....@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
Walter Mitty
> Um, how can it be Real Time Strategy if you only control ONE unit at a
> time?
Because you implement a strategy with that one unit?
Do you think that tennis players, boxers or snooker players dont have a
strategy when that play? Sure, they are more likely to be labelled as
sports sims, but there is still strategy when controlling a single
unit. Many times there are multiple units which you control one after
the other : this is, again, controlling only one unit at a time.
pigdos
--
Doug
"Walter Mitty" <mitt...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:87hd3qx...@news.europe.ch...
pigdos
much strategizing to be done if your resources are a mere battalion and the
area involved is a mere 25 square miles (or less). It's a tactical situation
not a strategic one.
--
Doug
"John Doe" <jd...@usenetlove.invalid> wrote in message
news:Xns97C4DF0217...@207.115.17.102...
Master Baiter
"pigdos" <N...@nowhere.com> 撰寫於郵件新聞:Oxsag.71693$_S7....@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
> Duh, then by your definition Gauntlet was an RTS. Idiot.
>
go and find the rom (go to ROM-Nation if you are too damp to locate one for
yourself)and try it out with an emulator, just remember to delete the rom
with in 24 hours if you don't want to be a pirate. You should try out the
game before you call anybody idiot for something that you have totally no
idea of, you stupid idiot.
Frans
news:87hd3qx...@news.europe.ch...
> "pigdos" <N...@nowhere.com> writes:
>
>
> Do you think that tennis players, boxers or snooker players dont have a
> strategy when that play? Sure, they are more likely to be labelled as
> sports sims, but there is still strategy when controlling a single
> unit. Many times there are multiple units which you control one after
> the other : this is, again, controlling only one unit at a time.
>
>> I think we can still say Westwood developed the first RTS just because
>> they
>> were the first to allow you to control multiple units (thus contributing
>> to
>> the STRATEGY aspect of RTS). By your reasoning, Gauntlet was an
Walter hits the nail on the head. The term "strategy" doesn't say "thousands
of units" or "huge scope", it merely states that this kind of game requires
DECISION MAKING ON STRATEGIC LEVEL.
You have
- Operational level
- Management level
- Strategic level
Just like in any business.
Translate this to starcraft
Operation level = marine uses stimpack and shoots
Management level = Take those 2 expansions
Strategic level = Carrier-Arb-Obs combo with templar should do the finishing
job, all the while pumping out fully upgraded goons as a decoy, defense, and
cannon fodder.
Walter Mitty
> Forces of a thousand units or less aren't commanded by generals.
Uh huh. And who told you this remarkable fact?
Neil Cerutti
> On Tue, 16 May 2006 15:03:47 GMT, "pigdos" <N...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>>Um, how can it be Real Time Strategy if you only control ONE unit at a time?
>>I think we can still say Westwood developed the first RTS just because they
>>were the first to allow you to control multiple units (thus contributing to
>>the STRATEGY aspect of RTS). By your reasoning, Gauntlet was an RTS. How
>>much strategy can you implement with ONE unit? Duh. Another aspect of
>>strategy is controlling multiple units with different abilities, did Herzog
>>Zwei have this feature?
>
>
> If controlling one unit (at a time) is enough, why then is Herzog Zwei
> (1990) considered to be the FIRST RTS? Off the top of my head, two
> years earlier (1988) there was such great game as Carrier Command on
> Atari ST and Amiga home computers.
>
> http://www.mobygames.com/game/amiga/carrier-command
>
> You controlled a carrier and its units (flying vehicles,
> amphibious vehicles etc., one at a time) trying to conquer a
> set of islands before a similar, computer-controlled, enemy
> carrier could do the same. And here's the real kicker: the game
> had (gasp!) good-looking 3D polygon graphics! And very fast one
> too! Although they were flat shaded filled polygons, not
> texture filled, but what do you expect from 1985 home computers
> with no dedicated 3D hardware?
>
> I am quite sure there were similar games long before Carrier
> Command (without 3D graphics though).
>
> Herzog Zwei the first RTS? Pffffffffffffffffft! Not even close!
>
> Anyway, it is not very far fetched to say "RTS" refers to
> real-time tactical games where you are controlling several
> units (like Dune 2, Warcraft and C&C), just like "survival
> horror" label seems to be reserved for Resident Evil
> lookalikes, even though you could argue many other games are
> also "survival horror".
And none of this discussion changes my opinion that RTS games are
just a glorified twitch-click-fest.
The speed and accuracy with which you can control the game is far
more important than any strategy you can imagine in every one
I've tried.
--
Neil Cerutti
Any time Detroit scores more than 100 points and holds the other
team below 100 points they almost always win. --Doug Collins
MuuMiMan
Baiter" <mas...@baiter.org> DUMPED HIS GHEYE SHIET ON MY COMPUTAR
SCREEN!!!!:
> just remember to delete the rom
>with in 24 hours if you don't want to be a pirate
That is bullshit.
Downloading ROMs is just as illegal whether you delete them within 24
hours or 2 years. In fact, it most likely is illegal to download the
thing even if you own the original, because you're getting your new
"copy" of the original from an illicit source, and thus it does not
fall under the scope of limited copying/fair use, which it'd do if
you'd rip the ROM from the cartridge you own yourself.
Walter Mitty
> On 17 May 2006 15:09:25 +0200, Neil Cerutti <lead...@email.com>
> wrote:
>
>>And none of this discussion changes my opinion that RTS games are
>>just a glorified twitch-click-fest.
>>
>>The speed and accuracy with which you can control the game is far
>>more important than any strategy you can imagine in every one
>>I've tried.
>
> Unless, of course, you slow down the game speed (and pause the game if
> you need time-out for decision making in very hectic situations), in
> which case speed and accuracy with your mouse hand is not an issue
in which case you are a cheat and might as well play a turn based game.
> anymore. Naturally, this may not work with online RTS games, but then
> turn-based strategy games are probably not that suitable for online
> gaming in the first place. Well, maybe for play-by-mail mode.
Why arent they? They are eminently suited for online play. In fact more
so than real time ones since lag is rarely an issue.
Neil Cerutti
>>are just a glorified twitch-click-fest.
>>
>>The speed and accuracy with which you can control the game is
>>far more important than any strategy you can imagine in every
>>one I've tried.
>
> game if you need time-out for decision making in very hectic
> situations), in which case speed and accuracy with your mouse
> online RTS games, but then turn-based strategy games are
> probably not that suitable for online gaming in the first
> place. Well, maybe for play-by-mail mode.
I need to unfortunately back-pedal a bit on my original
statement, thanks for the prodding. The speed of the earliest
RTS's was slow enough that I didn't usually feel spread too thin.
Dune 2, Warcraft, and the first Age of Empires moved at a slow
pace by default. It often felt like a strategy game.
But Age of Empires II, and Starcraft, the "modern" RTS's I've
spent the most time with, put my ability to "drive" them front
and center, in different ways.
Starcraft is just plain hard to control once battle begins. Most
unit behave in really annoying ways and must be babysat
constantly to function optimally.
Age of Empires II forces me to do and remember 20 things all at
once.
> Ps. Neil. Why did you try to re-direct followups to your reply
> to RPG group only? Is this about RPGs? Didn't you want to see
> replies to your message? If you think this is crossposted to
> too many groups, you are free to reply to only one suitable
> group, if you wish. Unless you are so afraid people will not
> see your reply?
Sorry, that was a knee-jerk reaction to a cross-posted
discussion, and I didn't pick a very good follow-up.
--
Neil Cerutti
For those of you who have children and don't know it, we have a
nursery downstairs. --Church Bulletin Blooper
The Qurqirish Dragon
1980's playing several Intellivision games which are technically RTSs.
I forget the names (was Sea Battle one of them?) but I know there was a
naval game and a space-battle game where you deployed squadrons of
ships to intercept attacking forces. You could let the battles handle
themselves, or directly control them, but if you were fighting one, the
other forces were still moving, and would fight while you were focusing
on another.
pigdos
Aren't you the idiot who stated that games in which you control one unit
qualify as RTS's, because of their *strategic* nature?
--
Doug
"Walter Mitty" <mitt...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:87bqtxf...@news.europe.ch...
Neil Cerutti
> On Mon, 15 May 2006 08:45:44 GMT, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg, riku wrote:
>
>>"PC gamers, know the roots of RTS games: TecnoSoft's HERZOG ZWEI on
>>SEGA GENESIS / MD"
>>
>>
>>In the same vein:
>>
>>Most console gamers who play Resident Evil 1-34, Silent Hill 1-9, Dino
>>Crisis etc. etc. etc. mistake Resident Evil as the forefather of all
>>"survival horror" games.
>>
>>It just isn't so, folks. Alone in the Dark is the first such horror
>>game, it came out LONG before any of those other games, and it had
>>several sequels too. Not to mention, it is much better game too (the
>>feel of the game is much more "psychologic horror thriller" than the
>>straight zombie movie clone that RE is), and lacks the horrendous
>>acting and voice acting of Resident Evil.
>>
>>I just wanted everyone to acknowledge this, ok? You shouldn't feel
>>proud at all about Resident Evil or Silent Hill games, because Alone
>>in the Dark appeared before them, ok? Good.
>>
>>
>>
> The Lurking Horror, by Dave Lebling, the first survival horror
> game ever set in the Cthulhu mythos.
>
> Genre: Text adventure.
Why you! I should've thought of that.
Frans
news:318m62l74jl2ftnql...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 17 May 2006 10:42:59 +0200, "Frans"
> <phasysn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>> "pigdos" <N...@nowhere.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> I think we can still say Westwood developed the first RTS just because
>>>> they
>>>> were the first to allow you to control multiple units (thus
>>>> contributing
>>>> to
>>>> the STRATEGY aspect of RTS). By your reasoning, Gauntlet was an
>>
>>Walter hits the nail on the head. The term "strategy" doesn't say
>>"thousands
>>of units" or "huge scope", it merely states that this kind of game
>>requires
>>DECISION MAKING ON STRATEGIC LEVEL.
>
> tactical games, not really strategy games, thus it is meaningless to
> try to define the term very closely in this context.
Every strategy comes down to applying tactics. Instead of the term
"management" in my previous post I could have (and probably should
have) used the term "tactical".
Operational -> Tactical -> Strategical
You need tactics to apply your strategy, and you need operations to apply
your tactics. This is, on a ridiculously small level, also true for Tic Tac
Toe.
> Second, genre names usually refer to similar games as those games
> where the term was first used. For example, "survival horror" refers
> to Resident Evil lookalikes (including Alone in the Dark which
> appeared before RE), even though you could argue that e.g. Forbidden
> Forest on Commodore 64 was also a survival horror game (it had a
> horror theme, and you tried to survive in it).
The question is if strategy is used to determine the outcome of an RTS
game. My answer is, yes it does. I usually form some strategy to try
to beat my opponent. First thing you need to know is what your opponents
race is, so you can adjust your strategy to that. Then you go ahead and
build
your army and do whatever you want to do, see if it works or not, and if
not,
try to get the hell out of their with minimal losses and meanwhile rethink
your
strategy.
> Anyway, RTS was first used on games like Dune 2, C&C and Warcraft, so
> the term is commonly used on games similar to them. Also, I already
> pointed out Carrier Command appeared two years before Herzog Zwei, and
> I am quite sure even it is not really the first "strategy/tactical
> game played in real time".
Carrier Command isn't multiplayer, is it? I have seen that game a few times,
but
I never really got into playing it. From what I seem to remember, is that it
wasn't
really "real time" all the time. IIRC, there were turnbased phases in it,
but I could
be wrong.
Frans
news:1JIag.28532$4L1....@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
> Anyone who has ever served in the military of any modern nation.
>
> Aren't you the idiot who stated that games in which you control one unit
> qualify as RTS's, because of their *strategic* nature?
Aren't you confusing games with real life?
Frans
> On Wed, 17 May 2006 12:38:20 -0500, Zaghadka <zagh...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>The Lurking Horror, by Dave Lebling, the first survival horror game ever
>>set in
>>the Cthulhu mythos.
>>
>>Genre: Text adventure.
>
> horror, real-time strategy games etc.) be defined: by the games where
> the term was first used, or by including any game that could be fit
> into the term pedantically?
Survival horror is a bit of a stupid term. One word describes something
about the game mechanics, and the other word describes content. A genre term
should never define actual content. An RTS could be set in the stone age,
WW2, or the future. Same for an FPS. A 'survival horror game' is just a
ridiculous term for an adventure, or RPG. Name it an RPG or adventure and be
done with it.
Luc The Perverse
news:m1rp62ho01env4opg...@4ax.com...
> be
> insulted, a lot of things can be "lost in translation."
>
> The genre term makes perfect sense to me.
>
> And as far as content, there is a difference between a combat flight sim,
> and a
> flight sim, and I'm glad the distinction is made.
Me too! That way I can avoid buying the non combat version
--
LTP
:)
Frans
> On Fri, 19 May 2006 05:12:33 GMT, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg, riku
> wrote:
>
If you can have a "horror" movie or a "horror" book, then you
> can have a "horror" game.
Right.
So you could theoretically have a
HORROR SURVIVAL ADVENTURE GAME WITH SMALL RTS ELEMENTS IN WHICH YOU AVOID
GETTING EATING BY GIGANTIC SPIDERS ON WHEELS WITH GREEN EYES AND TOXIC WEBBS
as a genre.
Frans
> On Fri, 19 May 2006 05:10:15 GMT, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg, riku
> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 18 May 2006 21:05:30 +0200, "Frans"
>><phasysn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Survival horror is a bit of a stupid term. One word describes something
>>>about the game mechanics, and the other word describes content. A genre
>>>term
>>>should never define actual content. An RTS could be set in the stone age,
>>>WW2, or the future. Same for an FPS. A 'survival horror game' is just a
>>>ridiculous term for an adventure, or RPG. Name it an RPG or adventure and
>>>be
>>>done with it.
>>
>>action-adventure games (or "adventure" games, like console gamers call
>>them, as they don't really know anything about adventure games where
>>you don't need to use your reflexes; to them Tomb Raider is a premier
>>example of a true adventure game).
>>
>>Anyway, as I said, the term does not seem to be used about any games
>>which are about "horror" and "survival", but games that resemble
>>Resident Evil game mechanism.
>
> You are alone in hell (or similar) and must shoot your way through
> hundreds of
> zombies and demons. That's what it usually refers to. The original "Doom"
> fits
> the bill, as does the arcade game "House Of Evil."
So does House of the Dead. House of the Dead is nothing but a shoot'em up.
Doom is an FPS.
I think that you have to keep in mind that book/movie genres are NOT the
same as computergame genres.
Luc The Perverse
news:126rf1b...@corp.supernews.com...
You could . . . but Zaghadka would bitch about it
What we need is a strict legislative body which controls how people describe
games headed by Zaghadka. The game descriptors and game genres of course
will need to be strictly separated.
--
LTP
:)
Frans
> isn't
> relevant to YOU doesn't make it irrelevant.
>
> You just named a very silly genre, BTW. ;^)
And I spelled webs wrong.
John Doe
>
> Forces of a thousand units or less aren't commanded by generals.
> There's not much strategizing to be done if your resources are a
> mere battalion and the area involved is a mere 25 square miles (or
> less). It's a tactical situation not a strategic one.
That's what you say when you lose?
Age of Empires Conquerors is strategically extremely deep, with a
maximum unit limit of 200.
pigdos
just come naturally? By your collectively idiotic definitions any FPS would
qualify as an RTS. Strategy, definition: "the science and art of employing
the political, economic, psychological, and military FORCES of a nation of
group of nations to afford the maximum support to adopted policies in peace
or war." Note the plural use of the noun FORCES. You can't implement
strategy with one unit retard.
--
Dougnews:126logc...@corp.supernews.com...> news:87hd3qx...@news.europe.ch...
>> "pigdos" <N...@nowhere.com> writes:
>>
>> Because you implement a strategy with that one unit?
>>
>> Do you think that tennis players, boxers or snooker players dont have a
>> strategy when that play? Sure, they are more likely to be labelled as
>> sports sims, but there is still strategy when controlling a single
>> unit. Many times there are multiple units which you control one after
>> the other : this is, again, controlling only one unit at a time.
>>
>>> I think we can still say Westwood developed the first RTS just because
>>> they
>>> were the first to allow you to control multiple units (thus contributing
>>> to
>>> the STRATEGY aspect of RTS). By your reasoning, Gauntlet was an
>
> Walter hits the nail on the head. The term "strategy" doesn't say
> "thousands of units" or "huge scope", it merely states that this kind of
> game requires DECISION MAKING ON STRATEGIC LEVEL.
>
>
> - Operational level
> - Management level
> - Strategic level
>
> Just like in any business.
>
> Translate this to starcraft
>
> Operation level = marine uses stimpack and shoots
> Management level = Take those 2 expansions
> Strategic level = Carrier-Arb-Obs combo with templar should do the
> finishing job, all the while pumping out fully upgraded goons as a decoy,
> defense, and cannon fodder.
>
>
pigdos
units (you could choose some of them to advance while others retreated or
stayed in position) but you could set up custom formations for your units.
You could also occupy forts. You could also design/implement your own
maps -- all on an IBM XT in 1989.
--
Doug
"AirRaid" <AirRa...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1147665409.1...@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> everyone who played / plays RTS games, including Dune 2, Command &
> Conquer series Red Alert, WarCraft series, Starcraft series, Total
> Annihilation, Warzone 2100,
> Jagged Alliance series, Tiberian Sun, Conflict Zone, Red Alert 2,
> Kohan, Age of Empires series, Homeworld, Warlords: Battlecry, LoTR:
> Battle For Middle Earth series,
> Star Wars: Empire at War, and countless others
>
> you should know the roots of all RTS games: It's really Herzog Zwei,
> made & developed by Tecno Soft in Japan. called Tecno Soft *or* Techno
> Soft in the U.S., sometimes with the space sometimes without ) in 1989,
> published by SEGA for the SEGA MegaDrive / Genesis console. Herzog
> Zwei came out in Japan in 1989, and then early 1990 in the United
> States.
>
> http://www.wolfgames.com/mdherzog.JPG
> http://www.discountgames.org/images/Herzog%20Zwei%20BS.jpg
>
>
> Herzog Zwei was a real-time strategy game with arcade/shmup elements.
> when i say shmup i don't mean first-person shooters (i,e, Doom, Quake)
> that everyone on the PC knows, i'm talking about overhead shmups like
> Xevious, Ikari Warriors, Thunder Force II (also by Technosoft /
> Tecnosoft), Aleste, Raiden, Truxton/Tetsujin, Granada, etc.
>
> Herzog Zwei, although it had these arcade/shooter/shmup elements, was
> very much a strategy game, and realtime.
>
> Herzog Zwei came out LONG before Command & Conquer, and even before
> Dune 2 / II.
> Most PC gamers only acknowledge Dune 2/II as the first RTS game. that
> simply is not true. It was Herzog Zwei that started the whole RTS
> genre. even though Herzog Zwei was not technically the first RTS game
> ever (Herzog by Tecnosoft came out before on the MSX computer in Japan
> in 1988, before the sequel, Herzog Zwei, and a game called 'Cytron
> Masters' was apparently the very first RTS game, back in the early
> 1980s on one of the Atari machines, i know nothing about it) but
> Herzog Zwei is where everything launched from, because it was more
> widely available, modern enough / fast enough to make a massive
> impression on those developers (like Westwood) that would later take
> RTS to the PC with games like Dune 2, C&C, Red Alert, and create a
> huge genre out of it.
>
> there are almost NO RTS games that match the frantic pace of Herzog
> Zwei and the almost totally unique aspect in that you ARE actually a
> unit yourself, a transformable mecha / fighter-cargo jet, not just some
> mouse cursor / pointer on the screen.
>
> there was a somewhat recent homebrew / shareware / freeware
> RTS/shoot'em up game made for the PC that was totally inspiried by
> Herzog Zwei. it's called Rapid Aerial Deployment, and while it is not
> nearly as good as Herzog Zwei, the developer did their best to pay
> homage to the first significant RTS game, Herzog Zwei.
> -Rapid Aerial Deployment quite is playable.
>
> looking ahead, I am *so* looking forward to Supreme Commander on the
> PC. it is the closest game I have ever, EVER seen to what I had always
> imagined a 3D polygonal, map zoomable Herzog Zwei-like game could be
> like. while Supreme Commander has little in commen with Herzog Zwei
> and more in commen with Total Annihilation because its the same main
> person in charge of development (AFAIK), and Supreme Commander is said
> to be the spiritual sequel / successor to Total Annihilation.
>
> Supreme Commander has to be, now, my most anticipated game for any
> platform, after watching both the teaser trailer and the gameplay
> demonstration.
>
> trailer - http://www.tinyurl.com/zlr2m
> demonstration - http://www.tinyurl.com/om3tc
>
>
> i know this cross posted to several off-topic groups, but so be it,
> and, my spelling, grammer, etc is not exactly, great. again, so be it.
> i wanted to make this a permanent recognition of Herzog Zwei as the
> first RTS game of any real value, for all time.
>
> now, bring on Supreme Commander!
>
Walter Mitty
> Another idiot is born. Did you have to practice to become an idiot or did it
> just come naturally? By your collectively idiotic definitions any FPS
> would
But not another top posting one.
> qualify as an RTS. Strategy, definition: "the science and art of employing
> the political, economic, psychological, and military FORCES of a nation of
> group of nations to afford the maximum support to adopted policies in peace
> or war." Note the plural use of the noun FORCES. You can't implement
> strategy with one unit retard.
Take one to know one Doug. And yes you can : because the strategy could
be to retreat, attack, dig in, move left. move right, fire long range,
fire short range, charge ones cells etc. You really are on a hiding to
nothing here. While it is more frequently the case that an RTS involves
multiple units of force, it is also perfectly feasible to only
manipulate one - as is, of course, the case anyway when the other units
are lost.
Personally I think the use of the word "retard" shows a deep lack of
moral fibre.
Luc The Perverse
>>You could . . . but Zaghadka would bitch about it
>I believe bitching is an unenumerated right covered by the 9th Amendment in
>my
> country.
>
> If you don't like it, killfile me.
Well you sure showed me
--
LTP
:)
Frans
> Another idiot is born. Did you have to practice to become an idiot or did
> it just come naturally? By your collectively idiotic definitions any FPS
> would qualify as an RTS.
It would most definately not, since FPS would be the genre-defining term.
Although, you might see BF2 as an FPS-RTS. :D
Oh, and your mother is gay, your father has a wart on his dick, and your
sister fucks chinese men with small penises for money.
pigdos
Jazz Jackrabbit, Doom, Gauntlet and Super Mario Brothers would all be
real-time strategy games. Did your mother have any children that lived?
--
Doug
"Walter Mitty" <mitt...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:87y7wvw...@news.europe.ch...
pigdos
have absolutely nothing to do with tactics.
Um, BF2 is nothing but tactics, it in no way meets the definition of
strategy.
--
Doug
"Frans" <phasysn...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:127355l...@corp.supernews.com...
pigdos
Jackrabbit, Super Mario Brothers and Doom (stand up and take a bow Shitty).
--
Doug
"John Doe" <jd...@usenetlove.invalid> wrote in message
news:Xns97C9B55A57...@207.115.17.102...
Frans
> At least I'm not the retard who's definition of RTS includes Jazz
> Jackrabbit, Super Mario Brothers and Doom (stand up and take a bow
> Shitty).
Instead, you're a top posting cunt! :-D
Frans
> Look up the definition of the word strategy. By your idiotic definition,
> Jazz Jackrabbit, Doom, Gauntlet and Super Mario Brothers would all be
> real-time strategy games. Did your mother have any children that lived?
You seem to be obsessed with Jazz Jackrabbit. Does the word "Jack" have
anything to do with that?
"Jack" and "Gauntlet".... What an odd combination.
Frans
> Maybe you should look up the definition of the word strategy. Strategy can
> have absolutely nothing to do with tactics.
>
> Um, BF2 is nothing but tactics, it in no way meets the definition of
> strategy.
So you do not deny that your mother is gay?
Walter Mitty
> Maybe you should look up the definition of the word strategy. Strategy can
> have absolutely nothing to do with tactics.
"can" leaves you wide open to yet another "do you have a strategy in
using top posting tectics which piss off so many other posters"?
Keep at it Doug : you're gettiing better.
>
> Um, BF2 is nothing but tactics, it in no way meets the definition of
> strategy.
>
> --
> Doug
> "Frans" <phasysn...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:127355l...@corp.supernews.com...
>> "pigdos" <N...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>> news:7L%bg.13172$fb2....@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...
>>> Another idiot is born. Did you have to practice to become an idiot or did
>>> it just come naturally? By your collectively idiotic definitions any FPS
>>> would qualify as an RTS.
>>
>> It would most definately not, since FPS would be the genre-defining term.
>> Although, you might see BF2 as an FPS-RTS. :D
>>
>> Oh, and your mother is gay, your father has a wart on his dick, and your
>> sister fucks chinese men with small penises for money.
>>
>
>
--
Luc The Perverse
You are disappointingly unentertaining.
--
LTP
:)
pigdos
the Imperial Japanese Navy decided to attack both the Aleutian islands and
Midway it was a strategic decision, not a tactical one. Tactics can only be
discussed after such strategic decisions have been made (if you don't know
where you're going to fight how can you make tactical decisions on how to do
it). The tactics of how to carry out this strategic decision were left up to
the admirals who commanded the various task forces or task groups because
they would actually BE there. Nimitz didn't second guess the tactical
decisions of Halsey, but Halsey didn't dictate the strategy the entire US
Navy would pursue in the Pacific either. Other strategic decisions might be
to bomb war production facilities as opposed to concentration camps --
either could have been done, but it isn't a tactical decision.
--
Doug
"Walter Mitty" <mitt...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:87ejylv...@news.europe.ch...
pigdos
obviously delicate sensibilities by top-posting. Just remember, it doesn't
make you a bad person!
--
Doug
"Frans" <phasysn...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1274bql...@corp.supernews.com...
Frans
> Gee, who nominated you to be the net police? I'm sorry I've offended your
> obviously delicate sensibilities by top-posting. Just remember, it doesn't
> make you a bad person!
Net police usually refrains from sexual insults.
You are a very confused individual.
Frans
> For <snip>
As if anybody reads this lame ass crap. :D
Luc The Perverse
> Gee, who nominated you to be the net police? I'm sorry I've offended your
> obviously delicate sensibilities by top-posting. Just remember, it doesn't
> make you a bad person!
his viability was never in question. (he is a conservative though)
After all you were the one in the wrong from the beginning
--
LTP
:)
Marsh_lion
> For the mentally challenged I'll give at least one example of strategy. When
> the Imperial Japanese Navy decided to attack both the Aleutian islands and
> Midway it was a strategic decision, not a tactical one. Tactics can only be
> discussed after such strategic decisions have been made (if you don't know
> where you're going to fight how can you make tactical decisions on how to do
> it). The tactics of how to carry out this strategic decision were left up to
> the admirals who commanded the various task forces or task groups because
> they would actually BE there. Nimitz didn't second guess the tactical
> decisions of Halsey, but Halsey didn't dictate the strategy the entire US
> Navy would pursue in the Pacific either. Other strategic decisions might be
> to bomb war production facilities as opposed to concentration camps --
> either could have been done, but it isn't a tactical decision.
>
agree that it was a strategic move, the carrier fleet still had to
decide the strategy on how they were going to take the Islands.
If we look at dictionary.com it gives the definition of tactic as
(http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=tactic):
n : a plan for attaining a particular goal [syn: maneuver, manoeuvre]
and Strategy gives (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=strategy):
A plan of action resulting from strategy or intended to accomplish a
specific goal. See Synonyms at plan.
To me this states that the words mean pretty much the same thing (aka
they are synonyms), so RTT pretty much means RTS (and RTS pretty much
means RTT).
--
Marsh Lion
Zealot The Crazy Lui
wrote:
>And you have been pnwed, loozer. <*splbbbblat!*>
>
>Is that the kind of "entertainment" you were looking for?
>
>Are you seriously squabbling with obviously touchy people (moi) on Usenet for
>"entertainment" purposes?
>
><Peschi on>Am I a funny clown to amuse you?</Peschi>
>
>Well, I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to disappoint you. I'm notoriously not
>funny, and if all you can find to whine about is the content of my posts, you
>are a very untalented whiner.
>
>I am a professional kvetch, and anyone who's seen me around knows that.
>
>Awaiting your next reply with baited breath...
You are disappointingly unentertaining.
and
You get minus 3,000,000 humor points.
You are the weakest link, goodbye.
--
"No I'm saying that I'm a cow dung." - Stephen "Suupernuubie" Ung
"Eat a bag of hell." - Cyric The Mad
"Yes - I need red hot gay loving" - LTP
MSN:ktwil...@hotmail.com (BUT DON'T SEND E-MAIL!) YIM: ktwilson AIM: YahooKyleW
Zealot the Crazy Lui
Grand 16-Star General and overall director of AGSC operations for the Pronoun Army(and webmaster)
http://pronounarmy.homestead.com/ http://thirty-five-mil.blogspot.com/
re-vamped sig 7D6h.4h.5h
Luc The Perverse
news:g65g72d227n5abj6u...@4ax.com...
> You are disappointingly unentertaining.
Hey you stole my line
--
LTP
:)
Luc The Perverse
>>>>>>You could . . . but Zaghadka would bitch about it
>>>>*snip*
>>>>>I believe bitching is an unenumerated right covered by the 9th
>>>>>Amendment
>>>>>in
>>>>>my
>>>>> country.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you don't like it, killfile me.
>>>>
>>>>Well you sure showed me
>>>
>>> Showed you how to operate your newsreader? <G>
>>
>>You are disappointingly unentertaining.
>
>
> Is that the kind of "entertainment" you were looking for?
>
> Are you seriously squabbling with obviously touchy people (moi) on Usenet
> for
> "entertainment" purposes?
>
> <Peschi on>Am I a funny clown to amuse you?</Peschi>
>
> Well, I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to disappoint you. I'm notoriously
> not
> funny, and if all you can find to whine about is the content of my posts,
> you
> are a very untalented whiner.
>
> I am a professional kvetch, and anyone who's seen me around knows that.
>
> Awaiting your next reply with baited breath...
^^
Consider yourself ch0wned
--
LTP
:)
pigdos
--
Doug
"Frans" <phasysn...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1279b3r...@corp.supernews.com...
pigdos
the political, economic, psychological and military forces of a nation or
battlefield tactics at all. Economic sanctions against a country or nation
could be said to be implementing a strategy but never a tactic (since it
has nothing do with combat).
It could be said that Yamamoto's strategy at Midway was to draw the US
Pacific fleet into a decisive battle in which superior Japanese naval assets
would prevail. A decision like this is made at the highest levels of
command, the people who would develop the tactics to carry out this strategy
at the lower levels wouldn't even know of the decision until after it was
made. If you don't know where you're going to attack how can you develop
tactics? The Japanese naval command had several strategies on where to
attack next (after the Coral Sea). Some wanted to take out Australia, some
wanted to hold on to what they had, but to decide where to attack with the
combined fleet next wasn't a tactical decision.
Would you say the decision by the allies to invade Europe through Normandy
as opposed to through Norway/Sweden was a tactical decision? I would say
this strategic decision determined the tactics not the other way around.
--
Doug
"Marsh_lion" <marsh...@SPAMparadise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:44769e3c$1...@clear.net.nz...
pigdos
--
Doug
"Luc The Perverse" <sll_noSpamli...@cc.usu.edu> wrote in message
news:nboek3x...@loki.cmears.id.au...
Luc The Perverse
> Only in your small, completely insignificant and unemployed mind.
I don't have to take that kind of shit from a top poster!
--
LTP
:)
Zealot The Crazy Lui
wrote:
>On Sat, 27 May 2006 10:56:43 -0600, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg, Luc The
>Perverse wrote:
>>Consider yourself ch0wned
pwnd!
>LOL. I thought you were that kind of gutter trash. Goodbye.
Kettle calling the pot gay?
Zealot The Crazy Lui
*snip crap*
>Would you say the decision by the allies to invade Europe through Normandy
>as opposed to through Norway/Sweden was a tactical decision? I would say
>this strategic decision determined the tactics not the other way around.
FOAD, ye evil top poster!
Luc The Perverse
> pwnd!
>
>>LOL. I thought you were that kind of gutter trash. Goodbye.
>
> Kettle calling the pot gay?
No this is a description of what he is.
You are only permitted to define genre
--
LTP
:)
Frans
> Ah, you're a bitter little man! There, there, want a popsicle?
I'll have a bitter lemon, and your mother with 500 tubes of anal lube.
Quaestor
>On Sun, 28 May 2006 01:07:48 GMT, "pigdos" <N...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>*snip crap*
>
>
>>Would you say the decision by the allies to invade Europe through Normandy
>>as opposed to through Norway/Sweden was a tactical decision? I would say
>>this strategic decision determined the tactics not the other way around.
>>
>>
>
>FOAD, ye evil top poster!
>
>
Listen, killfile and be done. Stop spamming a big list of newsgroups
with your rants.
--
Godwin is a net-nazi
Learn about spam: http://www.seige-perilous.org/spam/spam.html
Marsh_lion
> If you look up the definition of strategy: "the science and art of employing
> the political, economic, psychological and military forces of a nation or
> nations to afford the maximum support to adopted policies in peace or war."
> Therefore you could develop a strategy that had nothing to do with
> battlefield tactics at all. Economic sanctions against a country or nation
> could be said to be implementing a strategy but never a tactic (since it
> has nothing do with combat).
>
> It could be said that Yamamoto's strategy at Midway was to draw the US
> Pacific fleet into a decisive battle in which superior Japanese naval assets
> would prevail. A decision like this is made at the highest levels of
> command, the people who would develop the tactics to carry out this strategy
> at the lower levels wouldn't even know of the decision until after it was
> made. If you don't know where you're going to attack how can you develop
> tactics? The Japanese naval command had several strategies on where to
> attack next (after the Coral Sea). Some wanted to take out Australia, some
> wanted to hold on to what they had, but to decide where to attack with the
> combined fleet next wasn't a tactical decision.
>
> Would you say the decision by the allies to invade Europe through Normandy
> as opposed to through Norway/Sweden was a tactical decision? I would say
> this strategic decision determined the tactics not the other way around.
>
statements make sense weather you say it was a tactical move, or a
strategic move. While I agree that the word tactics is preferred in
smaller situations (in a battle as opposed to a war), you can certainly
say that a tactical move is a strategic move (and visa versa).
--
Marsh Lion
Programmer extrondinare
pigdos
tactics? By any definition they are not (since they don't involve combat in
any way), yet such a policy can be called a strategy. Sorry about the
cross-posting to irrelevant newsgroups (like .RPG).
Marsh, what is your programming language of choice? C? C++? Java? What do
you think of C#?
--
Doug
"Marsh_lion" <marsh...@SPAMparadise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:447abd20$1...@clear.net.nz...
pigdos
the real world couldn't care less... It must be rough not having a job and
all.
--
Doug
"Luc The Perverse" <sll_noSpamli...@cc.usu.edu> wrote in message
news:adink3x...@loki.cmears.id.au...
Zealot The Crazy Lui
>Only a real loser cares about top-posting vis-a-vis bottom-posting. 99% of
>the real world couldn't care less... It must be rough not having a job and
>all.
It must be tough not having a brain and all.
Zealot The Crazy Lui
>Listen, killfile and be done. Stop spamming a big list of newsgroups
>with your rants.
Thread plonk? :P