Roberta Williams is a FRAUD
thya...@sol.com.br
How could such a bad game designer become famous?
Let's face it: the woman hasn't got one single good game in her curriculum!
First, the dreadful King's Quest game: KQ6 was the most infuriating gaming
experience ever. In that stupid game you could screw things up just by not
entering the right screen at the right time !! I remember getting very close
to the ending and not being able to finish the thing because I had not talked
to this guy in the very begining of the game. And I only discovered that
because I got a walkthrough - if it depended on William's awful design, I'd be
wondering what to do forever !! If I had gotten my hands on the woman when I
found out I'd have to restart, we'd have been spared from Phantasmagoria.
Phantasmagoria was mildly entertaining, but not a game at all. Besides being
ridiculously easy, the woman robbed all puzzles from previous games - like the
get-key-with-nail-and-newspaper... it was an original puzzle... IN ALONE IN
THE DARK 2 !!!
For God's sake, Sierra, get rid of the imbecile - the design in her games
are the ultimate proof of what you can achieve with a careful combination of
laziness and complete lack of any visible talents.
I'm sure I'm not alone here. What do you guys think?
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
thya...@sol.com.br
Robin Adams
thya...@sol.com.br wrote:
: Phantasmagoria was mildly entertaining, but not a game at all. Besides being
: ridiculously easy, the woman robbed all puzzles from previous games - like the
: get-key-with-nail-and-newspaper... it was an original puzzle... IN ALONE IN
: THE DARK 2 !!!
Um.. no. AFAIK, the first computer game to include that puzzle was Zork 2.
It's a fairly well-known trick, anyway; I've read about it in many different
places. I think it was in an Usborne book that I first encountered it.
Larry Horsfield
In article <6db79d$gks$1...@nnrp2.dejanews.com>, thya...@sol.com.br writes
> Phantasmagoria was mildly entertaining, but not a game at all. Besides being
>ridiculously easy, the woman robbed all puzzles from previous games - like the
>get-key-with-nail-and-newspaper... it was an original puzzle... IN ALONE IN
>THE DARK 2 !!!
>are the ultimate proof of what you can achieve with a careful combination of
>laziness and complete lack of any visible talents.
> I'm sure I'm not alone here. What do you guys think?
>
the Spectrum, published under the FSF Adventures banner), I must say a
few words.
There is no such thing as an "original" puzzle in any adventure game, be
it text or graphic. Any puzzle has appeared in some form or another in
virtually every adventure game ever released. The get-key-with-nail-and-
newspaper puzzle is just a variation of the classic how-to-open-a-
locked-door puzzle. There are actually very few "basic" puzzles any
adventure author can do variations on.
IMHO, the people you want to have a go at are Sierra, for publishing the
game in the first place. If it is as bad as you say it is, surely they
should`ve recognised this and not released it. As it is, all they seem
to be interested in is profit.
Larry
Edan
thya...@sol.com.br writes:
[snip]
> I'm sure I'm not alone here. What do you guys think?
Well, on the whole, I haven't liked Roberta William's games, but I did like
Colonel's Bequest and Mixed-Up Mother-Goose is nice for it's simplicity.
For the most part I dislike the KQ games though.
lorel
I'm with you! I have had similar experiences. One where I didn't throw a
shoe at some cat so later I couldn't escape because the mouse the cat was
chasing couldn't help me because it was dead (?)!! Now who would have
thought to do such inane actions????? Secondly, with Sierra games they
have limited save games so you normally end up writing over the game you
needed so you could recover. Your point is valid and well made!!
thya...@sol.com.br wrote in article <6db79d$gks$1...@nnrp2.dejanews.com>...
>
>
> <snip snip>
> I'm sure I'm not alone here. What do you guys think?
>
Kathleen A Fallon
sjoh...@sable.ox.ac.uk (Robin Adams) writes:
>thya...@sol.com.br wrote:
>: Phantasmagoria was mildly entertaining, but not a game at all. Besides being
>:ridiculously easy, the woman robbed all puzzles from previous games - like the
>: get-key-with-nail-and-newspaper... it was an original puzzle... IN ALONE IN
>: THE DARK 2 !!!
>Um.. no. AFAIK, the first computer game to include that puzzle was Zork 2.
>It's a fairly well-known trick, anyway; I've read about it in many different
>places. I think it was in an Usborne book that I first encountered it.
This also appeared (first?) in an Agatha Christie novel. I forget which one,
but it might've been "The Secret of Chimneys"
Neil Schuh
I'm with you too..... I never have liked any of the King's Quest games....
I think lately, Sierra has been loosing it's original perspective. They
aren't the computer company that made those zany adventure games and was in
touch with their fans. They're turning into a lazy money-hungry company
trying to loose it's old ways.
The Space Quest series has been put on "indefinite hold".... It'll Larry
Laffer and King Graham who will be killed along with Roger Wilco in their
fight to destroy their adventure game series....
If you would like to help save Space Quest 7 go here:
-Neil Schuh
lorel wrote in message <01bd4549$1ab153c0$dfa060d1@landofoz>...
Matthew Murray
On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Neil Schuh wrote:
> I'm with you too..... I never have liked any of the King's Quest games....
>
> I think lately, Sierra has been loosing it's original perspective. They
> aren't the computer company that made those zany adventure games and was in
> touch with their fans. They're turning into a lazy money-hungry company
> trying to loose it's old ways.
It's been heading downhill for a little over seven years now, but
it's gotten really bad in the past three or so. I'm just considering
Sierra a total loss now. A shame--they used to do some good stuff. We
haven't seen any games like Hero's Quest or King's Quest IV or Leisure
Suit Larry II in a long time.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew A. Murray | The script calls for fusing and using our smarts,
| And greatness can come from the sum of our parts,
mmu...@cc.wwu.edu | From now on I'm with you--
| And with you is where I belong!
http://www.wwu.edu/~mmurray | -David Zippel, City of Angels
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Morris
On Sun, 01 Mar 1998 02:45:53 -0600, thya...@sol.com.br wrote:
>
> For God's sake, Sierra, get rid of the imbecile - the design in her games
>are the ultimate proof of what you can achieve with a careful combination of
>laziness and complete lack of any visible talents.
> I'm sure I'm not alone here. What do you guys think?
>
>-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
>http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Although I agree that the games are medeocre at best, it is going to
be hard to get rid of her... since she and her husband own the
company.
David
Brandon Fisher
David Morris wrote in message <34f9c14a...@news.earthlink.net>...
>On Sun, 01 Mar 1998 02:45:53 -0600, thya...@sol.com.br wrote:
>
>>
>> For God's sake, Sierra, get rid of the imbecile - the design in her
games
>>are the ultimate proof of what you can achieve with a careful combination
of
>>laziness and complete lack of any visible talents.
>> I'm sure I'm not alone here. What do you guys think?
I see I'm in the minority here by disagreeing with you. I have loved all
the King's Quest games (the first one was the first PC computer game I ever
played), The Colonel's Bequest, and thought Phantasmagoria was just fine -
although I agree it was not as much of a game as it was an interactive
movie. The only problem I have had with Sierra adventure games - which they
have recently begun to get away from - is the single curor interface where
you just click away. Roberta Williams' games have driven the adventure
gaming genre since the 80s. True, Lucasarts stepped in and are often
regarded as the masters of this genre now (and after Curse of Monkey Island,
they probably are), but Williams was the one who attempted to push the
technology with each new game. I used to upgrade my old computers around
the time of each new King's Quest release.
And is noone really excited about Mask of Eternity? Come on! If it comes
together as well as they are hoping it will, it will be to adventure games
what Mario 64 was to console platform games.
Skiorh
I agree, I havent played a Roberta Williams adventure I havent liked to some
degree, especially the teo Laura Bow games (sequel?), and I cant wait for
MoE!!!
Thomas Perrett or Robert Perrett
A Phony. she's a phony. I can't believe Phantsamagoria is anygood. What the point.
Roberta is a woman who create a "SHALLOW" chacaters. Some stuip Woman open up a box
and gets her Husband possed by a Demon and he Rapes her. That sounds like a HACK
writen all over it. Our feelings, she NEVER made any good games that we like. I get
this feeling SHE IS GOING TO KILL THE ADVENTURE GAME with "Her so called adventure
game" (King's Quest 8) That's the reason I never like King's Quest. I get this
feeling King's Quest 8 is going to FLOP and Sierra is going to STOP making
Adventure games. She says things are getting better. she doesn't even listen to us.
The industry is a techology driven. People says she always pushes them. HA, like
right. Only King Quest 1 and 4 were the ones that changed the industry. She says
King quest 8 is going to be the first Real time 3D a adventure game when we got got
Under a Killing Moon, The Pandora Directive, Dark Earth, Realms of the haunting,
Blade Runner, Tomb Raider 1 and 2 and Gee Whiz. (I could tell you more, but, the
other games are from other genres.) I think Sierra doesn't consider little
companies like this Important. Sierra games got bad when I bought they Myst clones.
But I never knew they better games out there besides sierra. Maybe they changed
after all there adventure game become 3D. What would happen if the industry stiop
being techology driven and people like US demand a good story. Would she be able to
adapt or not. I can't believe she las this long. What does everyone think of this?
Robert
tip9...@pacbell.net
thya...@sol.com.br
>
>
>
> And is noone really excited about Mask of Eternity? Come on! If it comes
> together as well as they are hoping it will, it will be to adventure games
> what Mario 64 was to console platform games.
>
>
Not really. It'll take some serious recommendation from friends before I
contemplate buying it. Especially if I won't be able to finish it because I
failed to get a tiny coin in a maze room I didn't even had to visit to
proceed. Or if I have to choose a lamp from five being offered by a merchant
and if I get the wrong one... well, you can always start over.
dblt...@earthlink.net
In article <6db77g$gug$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
thya...@sol.com.br wrote:
>
>
> How could such a bad game designer become famous?
> Let's face it: the woman hasn't got one single good game in her
curriculum!
> First, the dreadful King's Quest game: KQ6 was the most infuriating gaming
> experience ever. In that stupid game you could screw things up just by not
> entering the right screen at the right time !! I remember getting very close
> to the ending and not being able to finish the thing because I had not
talked
> to this guy in the very begining of the game. And I only discovered that
> because I got a walkthrough - if it depended on William's awful design, I'd
be
> wondering what to do forever !! If I had gotten my hands on the woman when I
> found out I'd have to restart, we'd have been spared from Phantasmagoria.
being
> ridiculously easy, the woman robbed all puzzles from previous games - like
the
> get-key-with-nail-and-newspaper... it was an original puzzle... IN ALONE IN
> THE DARK 2 !!!
> are the ultimate proof of what you can achieve with a careful combination of
> laziness and complete lack of any visible talents.
> I'm sure I'm not alone here. What do you guys think?
>
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
>
no one will buy the games. It was really your own fault that it happened
Like everybody says and even the game companies you talk to EVERYONE and
look at EVERYTHING you can also take everything. Learn the meaning of
fraud before you accuse someone of it!
thya...@sol.com.br
In article <01bd4549$1ab153c0$dfa060d1@landofoz>,
"lorel" <land...@techcom.net> wrote:
>
> I'm with you! I have had similar experiences. One where I didn't throw a
> shoe at some cat so later I couldn't escape because the mouse the cat was
> chasing couldn't help me because it was dead (?)!! Now who would have
> thought to do such inane actions????? Secondly, with Sierra games they
> have limited save games so you normally end up writing over the game you
> needed so you could recover. Your point is valid and well made!!
Maybe Sierra should send William's home and give Jane Jensen some extra
budget... :) oh, and they could kiss Al Lowe goodbye too. Has anyone found a
good joke in LSL7? And the puns...
thya...@sol.com.br
>
> Although I agree that the games are medeocre at best, it is going to
> be hard to get rid of her... since she and her husband own the
> company.
>
> David
>
Thanks for the information, David. That sure explains a lot.
Matthew Murray
On Sun, 1 Mar 1998 thya...@sol.com.br wrote:
> Maybe Sierra should send William's home and give Jane Jensen some extra
> budget... :) oh, and they could kiss Al Lowe goodbye too. Has anyone found a
> good joke in LSL7? And the puns...
Leisure Suit Larry has been worthless since LSL3. Jane Jensen
should be given more to do--she >writes< her games, and that's a lost art
these days.
Matthew Murray
On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, David Monaghan wrote:
> On Sun, 1 Mar 1998 12:11:54 -0800, Matthew Murray <mmu...@cc.wwu.edu>
> wrote:
>
> >On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Neil Schuh wrote:
>
> > I'm just considering Sierra a total loss now. A shame--they used to do
> >some good stuff. We haven't seen any games like Hero's Quest or
> >King's Quest IV or Leisure Suit Larry II in a long time.
>
> I used to be a text adventure game devotee ( Infocom, of course ) and
> have just started playing again after getting the Zork Legacy
> Collection and ZGI. If you can place yourself in that mindset are the
> early KQ/other Sierra games worth playing ? And if so which would be
> the best to try first and how should I get it?
Of >course< the earlier Sierra games are worth playing. They were
much better in terms of gameplay and writing (you know, the IMPORTANT
things) than the crap that passes for computer games today. Start at the
beginning with the original King's Quest, and move on forward from there.
Noman
Matthew Murray wrote:
>
> Of >course< the earlier Sierra games are worth playing. They were
> much better in terms of gameplay and writing (you know, the IMPORTANT
> things) than the crap that passes for computer games today. Start at the
> beginning with the original King's Quest, and move on forward from there.
>
>
I fail to see what was good about >writing< in earlier Sierra
games.. Games like Quest for Glory 2 or Space Quest 3 or
Police Quest 2 were good because they were interesting games
with better puzzles... Writing was not their strength...
I don't think all of the Sierra adentures (and all of the Zork
games, text or graphics) combined, can match Gabriel
Knight 1, in plot, writing and story.... In gameplay,
believe it or not, GK1 gave me >more< freedom to try things
out than any text parser ever did, IMHO...
I agree that Sierra adventures have gone down... and I'll
think a 100 times before buying GK3 or QG5. I found GK2, an
extremely pointless game, and QG4 was so-so.
--
Noman, who thinks that KQ6 was the best Kings' Quest by a
BIG margin...
Matthew Murray
On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Noman wrote:
> Matthew Murray wrote:
> >
> > Of >course< the earlier Sierra games are worth playing. They were
> > much better in terms of gameplay and writing (you know, the IMPORTANT
> > things) than the crap that passes for computer games today. Start at the
> > beginning with the original King's Quest, and move on forward from there.
>
> I fail to see what was good about >writing< in earlier Sierra
> games.. Games like Quest for Glory 2 or Space Quest 3 or
> Police Quest 2 were good because they were interesting games
> with better puzzles... Writing was not their strength...
I disagree. Quest for Glory II had a >very< interesting story,
and the story of Space Quest III: The Pirates of Pestulon, while no great
work of literary art, was more than sufficient for the purpose it needed
to serve, and better than most of the crap we put up with today. Besides
which, the game was >entertaining<.
> I don't think all of the Sierra adentures (and all of the Zork
> games, text or graphics) combined, can match Gabriel
> Knight 1, in plot, writing and story.... In gameplay,
The first Gabriel Knight game had its moments, but I don't think
it was quite as great as you do--Sierra has had some other good games
storywise, and there were parts of The Sins of the Fathers that were so
formulaic and predictable that they weren't very evocative. At least not
to me...
> believe it or not, GK1 gave me >more< freedom to try things
> out than any text parser ever did, IMHO...
It depends on the games, of course...
> I agree that Sierra adventures have gone down... and I'll
> think a 100 times before buying GK3 or QG5. I found GK2, an
> extremely pointless game, and QG4 was so-so.
I rather liked The Beast Within, though it was not without its
problems. Quest for Glory IV was drop dead boring. Better than Quest for
Glory III by a country mile.
> --
> Noman, who thinks that KQ6 was the best Kings' Quest by a
> BIG margin...
Hooboy... Sorry, that statement invalidates the rest of your
message. ;)
Brian Short
I downloaded the .avi trailer for this, and I really hope it's an OLD trailer,
because if the game even looks remotely like the one in the trailer, I'll never
respect Sierra again... as if I do now. The character animation in it is
absolutely horrible, the graphics are horrible, hell, everything I saw in it was
horrible.
I just hope Sierra doesnt fuck up Half-Life or any of Papyrus' games, or next
time I'm in Seattle, I'm gonna blow up the Sierra HQ... hey, I met a Navy SEAL on
IRC, he could help me...
Brian Short
bds...@hotmail.com
David Monaghan
>On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Neil Schuh wrote:
> I'm just considering Sierra a total loss now. A shame--they used to do
>some good stuff. We haven't seen any games like Hero's Quest or
>King's Quest IV or Leisure Suit Larry II in a long time.
I used to be a text adventure game devotee ( Infocom, of course ) and
have just started playing again after getting the Zork Legacy
Collection and ZGI. If you can place yourself in that mindset are the
early KQ/other Sierra games worth playing ? And if so which would be
the best to try first and how should I get it?
DaveM
Raymond Pat
thya...@sol.com.br wrote:
> How could such a bad game designer become famous?
> Let's face it: the woman hasn't got one single good game in her curriculum!
That's YOUR opinion. The Colonel's Bequest is own of the best games ever, in fact
I daresay it's better than ANY of the Monkey Island series. I was never so
frightened and so enthralled at the little nuances in the game...from stublimg
into bodies, finding crime scenes, spying on people, finding new secret passages.
It was SO thrilling. The only gripe is that it's too hard.King's Quest III was
also only of my favorite. In fact, any KQ with Alexader as the main character is
very good. (there were only 2).
> First, the dreadful King's Quest game: KQ6 was the most infuriating gaming
> experience ever. In that stupid game you could screw things up just by not
> entering the right screen at the right time !! I remember getting very close
> to the ending and not being able to finish the thing because I had not talked
> to this guy in the very begining of the game. And I only discovered that
> because I got a walkthrough - if it depended on William's awful design, I'd be
> wondering what to do forever !! If I had gotten my hands on the woman when I
Isn't that more of your own incompetency? I finished KQ6 without any problems,
without even looking at a walkthrough. I personally really liked the game. Of
course, it isn't very original, but it played great, has a good sense of humor,
good NPC, derivative but enjoyable story, and TRULY EXCELLENT music (except for
the cheesy duet at the end). I had no problems with it, and I wouldnt fault
Roberta on THAT.
> found out I'd have to restart, we'd have been spared from Phantasmagoria.
> Phantasmagoria was mildly entertaining, but not a game at all. Besides being
> ridiculously easy, the woman robbed all puzzles from previous games - like the
> get-key-with-nail-and-newspaper... it was an original puzzle... IN ALONE IN
> THE DARK 2 !!!
> For God's sake, Sierra, get rid of the imbecile - the design in her games
> are the ultimate proof of what you can achieve with a careful combination of
> laziness and complete lack of any visible talents.
> I'm sure I'm not alone here. What do you guys think\?
This is stupid. I'm SURE you haven't playedeven HALf os Roberta Williams' games,
and here you are dissing her as if she was your whore. WTF?You described only 2
games of hers you had gripes with. Sure, Phantasmagoria was a big step down (so
was KQ7), but not everyone does something great all the time....ahem, Lord British
(UO and U8 are complete disasters). Have you played ANY of her earlier works?
Have you tried Time Zone? It came out in 1981, and it was TOUGH. Very
challenging IMHO. She really did a good job there, and I think that game is on
par with any of Infocom's best.You might not be alone, but the opinion you arrive
with is so uninformed and unresearched that it does not give weight to your
argument. Sure I think her works are getting worse, but dismissing her like this
is very insulting, to her AND to readers who enjoyed her past works.
Raymond
thya...@sol.com.br
>
> > I don't think all of the Sierra adentures (and all of the Zork
> > games, text or graphics) combined, can match Gabriel
> > Knight 1, in plot, writing and story.... In gameplay,
>
> The first Gabriel Knight game had its moments, but I don't think
> it was quite as great as you do--Sierra has had some other good games
> storywise, and there were parts of The Sins of the Fathers that were so
> formulaic and predictable that they weren't very evocative. At least not
> to me...
>
> > believe it or not, GK1 gave me >more< freedom to try things
> > out than any text parser ever did, IMHO...
>
> It depends on the games, of course...
>
> > I agree that Sierra adventures have gone down... and I'll
> > think a 100 times before buying GK3 or QG5. I found GK2, an
> > extremely pointless game, and QG4 was so-so.
>
> I rather liked The Beast Within, though it was not without its
> problems. Quest for Glory IV was drop dead boring. Better than Quest for
> Glory III by a country mile.
>
The original Gabriel Knight is one of my favorite games ever. Greta
writing, long, tough and involving. The Beast Within had a questionable
interface that took a lot of the interactive away, but I loved it: probably
the best writing in an adult adventure ever - much unlike the childish
Phantasmagoria, a game that had a nice start but was developed badly. And I
can't wait for Gabriel Knight 3... almost as much as I'm waiting for a new
Indy game.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
thya...@sol.com.br
In article <34FA7F09...@polymail.calpoly.edu>,
Raymond Pat <rpha...@polymail.calpoly.edu> wrote:
> That's YOUR opinion. The Colonel's Bequest is own of the best games ever,
in fact
> I daresay it's better than ANY of the Monkey Island series. I was never so
> frightened and so enthralled at the little nuances in the game...from
stublimg
> into bodies, finding crime scenes, spying on people, finding new secret
passages.
> It was SO thrilling. The only gripe is that it's too hard.King's Quest III
was
> also only of my favorite. In fact, any KQ with Alexader as the main
character is
> very good. (there were only 2).
>>>>>>>> Of course it's my opinion, never said it was yours!! :) I didn't play
The Colone's Bequest but was rather bored by Dagger of Amon Ra. And I'm not
complaining about the very early KQ games, even though I can't say I like
them, and the series ARE getting worse every time. And it's not pretty for her
to rest on her laurels...
> > First, the dreadful King's Quest game: KQ6 was the most infuriating
gaming
> > experience ever. In that stupid game you could screw things up just by not
> > entering the right screen at the right time !! I remember getting very
close
> > to the ending and not being able to finish the thing because I had not
talked
> > to this guy in the very begining of the game. And I only discovered that
> > because I got a walkthrough - if it depended on William's awful design,
I'd be
> > wondering what to do forever !! If I had gotten my hands on the woman when
I
>
> Isn't that more of your own incompetency? I finished KQ6 without any
problems,
> without even looking at a walkthrough. I personally really liked the game.
Of
> course, it isn't very original, but it played great, has a good sense of
humor,
> good NPC, derivative but enjoyable story, and TRULY EXCELLENT music (except
for
> the cheesy duet at the end). I had no problems with it, and I wouldnt fault
> Roberta on THAT.
>>>>> My incompetence? I think not. If I failed to choose the right lamp in a
totally random puzzle, than it means I wasn't very lucky. If you got the right
one the first time you played, than congratulations, chances of that happening
are of 20%, since there are ABSOLUTELY NO CLUES to what lamp you should be
needing by the end of the game. RW's lousy game design denotes her
incompetence, not mine. When you get stuck in a Lucas Arts or Jane Jensen
game, it's because you can't figure out what to do, not because the game let
you screw things up by, say, letting you procceed without a required item.
And I found the whole game very sub-par, starting with the childish
save-the-princess story.
For God's sake, Sierra, get rid of the imbecile - the design in her
games are the ultimate proof of what you can achieve with a careful
combination oflaziness and complete lack of any visible talents.
I'm sure I'm not alone here. What do you guys think?
> This is stupid. I'm SURE you haven't playedeven HALf os Roberta Williams'
games,
> and here you are dissing her as if she was your whore. WTF?You described
only 2
> games of hers you had gripes with. Sure, Phantasmagoria was a big step down
(so
> was KQ7), but not everyone does something great all the time....ahem, Lord
British
> (UO and U8 are complete disasters). Have you played ANY of her earlier
works?
> Have you tried Time Zone? It came out in 1981, and it was TOUGH. Very
> challenging IMHO. She really did a good job there, and I think that game is
on
> par with any of Infocom's best.You might not be alone, but the opinion you
arrive
> with is so uninformed and unresearched that it does not give weight to your
> argument. Sure I think her works are getting worse, but dismissing her like
this
> is very insulting, to her AND to readers who enjoyed her past works.
>
> Raymond
>>>>>>> I don't care if Time Zone was a good game - no, I never played it, but
it's 17 years old, and, as I said before, it's not right to overlook the
crap KQ6 is because of her early work. I'm discussing the crap she's been
doing lately. KQ6, KQ7, Phantasmagoria and the such. And it's a lot more
insulting to spend weeks trying to solve a puzzle that can't be solved because
she was too lazy to design something that won't randomly punish the guy who
spent 50 bucks on her game. And I enjoyed Ultima 8 a lot, even though it's far
from being UIV and UVII.
thya...@sol.com.br
> >
> Hey I know why dont they have you TRY to do what she is doing. Garuntee
> no one will buy the games. It was really your own fault that it happened
> Like everybody says and even the game companies you talk to EVERYONE and
> look at EVERYTHING you can also take everything. Learn the meaning of
> fraud before you accuse someone of it!
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
>
>>>>>> When you charge money for your work, you have to accept consumer's
opinions, even if you don't like them or agree with them. Try everything? Like
throw-a-boot-at-a-cat-because-you-never-know-when-you-might-need-the-rat-it-co
uld-maybe-kill-to-save-you-and-if-the-rat-is-killed-you'll-be-stuck-forever-be
cause-no-one-will-tell-the-rat-would-be-the-solution-to-the-puzzle-and-you-fin
ally-pay-10-bucks-for-a-hintbook-and-find-out-you-have-to-restart. I suppose
you naturally kick cats around on your way to work... just in case.
Matthew Murray
On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Raymond Pat wrote:
> thya...@sol.com.br wrote:
>
> > How could such a bad game designer become famous?
> > Let's face it: the woman hasn't got one single good game in her curriculum!
>
> That's YOUR opinion. The Colonel's Bequest is own of the best games ever, in fact
> I daresay it's better than ANY of the Monkey Island series. I was never so
> frightened and so enthralled at the little nuances in the game...from stublimg
> into bodies, finding crime scenes, spying on people, finding new secret passages.
> It was SO thrilling. The only gripe is that it's too hard.
The Colonel's Bequest?!? Too hard? You've GOT to be kidding!
> King's Quest III was
> also only of my favorite. In fact, any KQ with Alexader as the main character is
> very good. (there were only 2).
Um... Okay... If you think King's Quest VI was very good, that's
your problem, not anyone else's...
> > First, the dreadful King's Quest game: KQ6 was the most infuriating gaming
> > experience ever. In that stupid game you could screw things up just by not
> > entering the right screen at the right time !! I remember getting very close
> > to the ending and not being able to finish the thing because I had not talked
> > to this guy in the very begining of the game. And I only discovered that
> > because I got a walkthrough - if it depended on William's awful design, I'd be
> > wondering what to do forever !! If I had gotten my hands on the woman when I
>
> Isn't that more of your own incompetency? I finished KQ6 without any problems,
> without even looking at a walkthrough.
Then you have a much less analytical mind than most people. Most
of the people I know who played the game were frustrated because most of
the puzzles didn't actually make very much sense. If you were able to
make it past the fact that logic wasn't required for too many of the
puzzles, more power to you. (The original poster is right, though--the
lamp puzzle was >very< unfair.)
> I personally really liked the game. Of
> course, it isn't very original, but it played great, has a good sense of humor,
> good NPC, derivative but enjoyable story, and TRULY EXCELLENT music (except for
> the cheesy duet at the end). I had no problems with it, and I wouldnt fault
> Roberta on THAT.
Of course not. Everyone knows Roberta hasn't really had anything
to do with the King's Quest series for years.
> > found out I'd have to restart, we'd have been spared from Phantasmagoria.
> > Phantasmagoria was mildly entertaining, but not a game at all. Besides being
> > ridiculously easy, the woman robbed all puzzles from previous games - like the
> > get-key-with-nail-and-newspaper... it was an original puzzle... IN ALONE IN
> > THE DARK 2 !!!
>
> > For God's sake, Sierra, get rid of the imbecile - the design in her games
> > are the ultimate proof of what you can achieve with a careful combination of
> > laziness and complete lack of any visible talents.
> > I'm sure I'm not alone here. What do you guys think\?
>
> This is stupid. I'm SURE you haven't playedeven HALf os Roberta Williams' games,
> and here you are dissing her as if she was your whore. WTF?You described only 2
> games of hers you had gripes with. Sure, Phantasmagoria was a big step down (so
> was KQ7), but not everyone does something great all the time....
Believe us, we >know< that! Mrs. Williams is an excellent example
of someone like that!
> ahem, Lord British
> (UO and U8 are complete disasters). Have you played ANY of her earlier works?
Yes.
> Have you tried Time Zone?
Yes.
> It came out in 1981, and it was TOUGH. Very
> challenging IMHO. She really did a good job there, and I think that game is on
> par with any of Infocom's best.
Compared to most of On-Line Systems' games of the period, there is
more to it (it's certainly a lot bigger, and at the time, it cost a lot
more--$99.95!), but harder? No, not really. Because it was bigger, there
was necessarily more to do. But the game wasn't really >harder<. The
puzzles were typical On-Line Systems fare for the time. They might have
seemed harder to you >then<, but they weren't really that much different
from most of their other games around then.
As for being on par with Infocom's best... Um, last time I
checked, Infocom never had a line in a game that read: You are in a
field. There is a time machine here. ;) Say what you will about
Infocom's games, but they were mature from the very beginning, and having
to be restricted to two word commands is something that Infocom was never
saddled with. As for Time Zone, it certainly didn't have too much of a
story, and it really wasn't that hard. Have you ever played Suspended?
Now >that< is a hard game.
> You might not be alone, but the opinion you arrive
> with is so uninformed and unresearched that it does not give weight to your
> argument.
The problem is that right now, the burden of proof is on you, and
you're not even trying! You aren't able to defend anything about the
games. That says more about you than it does about the original poster.
> Sure I think her works are getting worse, but dismissing her like this
> is very insulting, to her AND to readers who enjoyed her past works.
He's not dismissing her at all. Come on, at least try to >read<
the message you're responding to. (Although, if you're a fan of more
recent Sierra games, I can see how your reading skill might have fallen
off a little bit.)
Steve Young
> Let's face it: the woman hasn't got one single good game in her
curriculum!
gaming
> experience ever. In that stupid game you could screw things up just by
not
> entering the right screen at the right time !! I remember getting very
close
> to the ending and not being able to finish the thing because I had not
talked
> to this guy in the very begining of the game. And I only discovered that
> because I got a walkthrough - if it depended on William's awful design,
I'd be
> wondering what to do forever !! If I had gotten my hands on the woman
when I
early days of computer games and has programmed many games in this time,
many of which were ground breaking in there own way. Sure she has made many
games that were not top notch, but then you expect that when someone is as
prolific as her.
> Phantasmagoria was mildly entertaining, but not a game at all. Besides
being
like you found it great fun, but hardly what you call a game. Yes it was
amazingly easy, but then is this not true about so many games these days,
especially ones involving real life action and actors. When games like
Gabriel Knight 2( which I really enjoyed) are described by a magazine like
CGW as the hardest adventure ever, you know something is not quite right.
> the woman robbed all puzzles from previous games - like the
get-key-with-nail-and-> newspaper... it was an original puzzle... IN ALONE
IN THE DARK 2 !!!
This is a silly statement. What game hasn't borrowed ideas and puzzles from
other games. With the finite number of things to do, it is hardly
surprising that the same puzzles crop up, particurlaly if you are a
experienced adventurer. No doubt al the puzzles from Alone in the Dark
appeared first in one Spectrum game or other. Anyway this game is hardly an
adventure, more a hybrid like those so Arcade Adventures.
> For God's sake, Sierra, get rid of the imbecile - the design in her
games
> are the ultimate proof of what you can achieve with a careful combination
of
> laziness and complete lack of any visible talents.
> I'm sure I'm not alone here. What do you guys think?
Well this imbecile as you call her is a sucessful businesswoman who with
her husband Ken, have built Sierra up into one of the biggest software
companies today. Without her there probably wouldn't be a Sierra, though
that would probably be good news to people like you.
To sum up. I have played and owned many Sierra games over the years, which
have been good, bad and indifferent, but on the whole have worked fairly
well and the software support has been good, though some would disagree.
Compare this to some of the bugridden products released such as the recent
Overseer game by Access which to all intents and purposes has been a
shambles(not my opinion), but from the many people writing to this
newsgroup writing about their difficulties with this game. I am not talking
about the game itself, which everyone playing it has described as very
good, but the setup and visual effects in the game. So next time you make a
wild statement at least get your facts right first.
Dolf Schuurman
thya...@sol.com.br schreef in artikel <6db79d$gks$1...@nnrp2.dejanews.com>...
>
>
> How could such a bad game designer become famous?
> Let's face it: the woman hasn't got one single good game in her
curriculum!
Then why is everybody playing them? I think that you are right though. I
played 2 KQ gamest (4 and 5 i believe) and the two Phantasmagoria games. I
didn't like the K.Q-games, but that had more to do with the fact i din't
like the genre. But Phantasmagoria 1 and 2 are at least "not good value for
money". Phantas 1 is awfull in every way: thin characters, an even thinner
plotline, a lot of area's and very little people to talk with... The main
character is a joke. She has no past, no family, no friends... Williams
improved on that in Phantasmagoria 2, a shame that she needed a bunch of
aliens to wrap up the story.
The puzzels aren't always up to standards. Apart from the fact that their
not very original, is the way she squeezes them into the story. In
Phantasmagoria 1 and 2 the quests are not always blended into the story
like they should have. Day one in phantasmagoria 2 is awfull. All those
little stupid tasks you have to do untill you can finish at work...
But Roberta Williams is no fraud and certainly not an imbecile. Sierra is
one of the oldest softwarehouses that still exists and Roberta Williams has
played an important role in it's history. I like her philosophy about games
and her currage to create games that appeals women or children. She also
very good in recognizing talented people like Jane Jensen.
In her own games she always fails to convert good ideas into good products.
Maybe she should use her ideas to inspire others and let them create the
games.
Just my two cents,
Dolf
> First, the dreadful King's Quest game: KQ6 was the most infuriating
gaming
> experience ever. In that stupid game you could screw things up just by
not
> entering the right screen at the right time !! I remember getting very
close
> to the ending and not being able to finish the thing because I had not
talked
> to this guy in the very begining of the game. And I only discovered that
> because I got a walkthrough - if it depended on William's awful design,
I'd be
> wondering what to do forever !! If I had gotten my hands on the woman
when I
> found out I'd have to restart, we'd have been spared from Phantasmagoria.
> Phantasmagoria was mildly entertaining, but not a game at all. Besides
being
> ridiculously easy, the woman robbed all puzzles from previous games -
like the
> get-key-with-nail-and-newspaper... it was an original puzzle... IN ALONE
IN
> THE DARK 2 !!!
> For God's sake, Sierra, get rid of the imbecile - the design in her
games
> are the ultimate proof of what you can achieve with a careful combination
of
> laziness and complete lack of any visible talents.
> I'm sure I'm not alone here. What do you guys think?
>
Francis Li
Remember that "Phantasmagoria 2" was NOT written by Roberta Williams, but by
Lorelei Shannon (sp?) who co-wrote King's Quest 7 with her. Also, remember
that everybody's favorite Jane Jensen co-wrote King's Quest 6.
I think I remember reading somewhere that Roberta Williams admitted that the
horror genre was not for her- and that she was going to "pull all the stops"
to bring the King's Quest series back on track. For her sake and the sake
of the company, I hope Mask of Eternity will be a great game. However, the
one year delay worries me- their 3D engine looks horribly dated. It seems
to suffer from low polygon counts that leave the characters AND environments
looking blocky and less detailed than even the first Tomb Raider. However,
if they can get the story, puzzles, and interaction right, then it shouldn't
matter.
Francis
Kevin Grey
Roberta Williams had nothing to do with Phantasmagoria 2.
Kevin Grey
Steve Young
Thomas Perrett or Robert Perrett <tip9...@pacbell.net> wrote in article
<34F9FD2A...@pacbell.net>...
>I get this feeling SHE IS GOING TO KILL THE ADVENTURE GAME with "Her so
>called adventure game" (King's Quest 8) That's the reason I never like
King's Quest.
????????????????? What's that got to do with it.
> I get this
> feeling King's Quest 8 is going to FLOP and Sierra is going to STOP
making
> Adventure games.
I agree with you there. I have just seen a short preview of it in Ultimate
PC, and it looks more like a Lara Croft game than an adventure. There are
RPG and adventure elements in it as well, but it looks mostly action
orientated. It looks like my worst fears about it are coming true.
> But I never knew they better games out there besides sierra. Maybe they
changed
> after all there adventure game become 3D. What would happen if the
industry stiop
> being techology driven and people like US demand a good story. Would she
be able to
> adapt or not. I can't believe she las this long. What does everyone think
of this?
>
I think you need to improve your spelling and grammar.
Elizabeth Yang
I guess I'm also one of the minority here. I like
the KQ series. I don't like KQ7 as much, but I
like the others.
I think one thing people need to realize is: KQ
is a fairy tale. It is based on fairy tales. Many
of the puzzles are from German folktales and some
Middle East and Eastern Europe stories. For example,
in KQ6, where the lady needed to be given the white
rose, that was based on the original Beauty and the
Beast, where Beauty asked her fathr to bring her
the very first flower he saw on his way home, and
the white rose was it.
While the logic of the puzzles are not very 'down
to earth,' they are, nontheless, logical. You just
need to know your childhood stories.
Personally, I've been able to finish all KQ series
so far w/o any walkthrus.
- Liz
thya...@sol.com.br
In article <01bd45b9$180e5260$LocalHost@default>,
> Well this imbecile as you call her is a sucessful businesswoman who with
> her husband Ken, have built Sierra up into one of the biggest software
> companies today. Without her there probably wouldn't be a Sierra, though
> that would probably be good news to people like you.
> To sum up. I have played and owned many Sierra games over the years, which
> have been good, bad and indifferent, but on the whole have worked fairly
> well and the software support has been good, though some would disagree.
> Compare this to some of the bugridden products released such as the recent
> Overseer game by Access which to all intents and purposes has been a
> shambles(not my opinion), but from the many people writing to this
> newsgroup writing about their difficulties with this game. I am not talking
> about the game itself, which everyone playing it has described as very
> good, but the setup and visual effects in the game. So next time you make a
> wild statement at least get your facts right first.
>>>>>>>> Which facts? People complaining about Overseer? I can't see why that
would make KQ6 a better game and I clearly said why I don't approve her work.
And I don't care how much money Sierra makes - if selling big meant talent,
the Spice Girls would only find jobs as janitors. I haven't played Overseer
yet, but Mrs. Williams could learn a lot about game designing from Under a
Killing Moon and Pandora Directive. You say I'd be happy if Sierra didn't
exist... wrong. I'd be happy if Sierra published better games. I play games,
for God's sake, and if they were making fantastic software, I'd gladly make
the Williams a bit richer. I didn't say what I did because I thought it was
funny. In a recent issue of the British PC Gamer, I read Sierra had "wisely
chosen" not to emphasise the fact that Mask of Eternity was a King's Quest
sequel. Why? "Best avoid prejudices, as this comes from the mind of Roberta
'Phantasmagoria' Williams." Now, if Sierra itself is afraid of gamers
connecting their new release to King's Quest, something must be wrong.
Ernest Petti
thya...@sol.com.br wrote:
>
> Let's face it: the woman hasn't got one single good game in her curriculum!
> experience ever. In that stupid game you could screw things up just by not
> entering the right screen at the right time !! I remember getting very close
> to the ending and not being able to finish the thing because I had not talked
> to this guy in the very begining of the game. And I only discovered that
> because I got a walkthrough - if it depended on William's awful design, I'd be
> wondering what to do forever !! If I had gotten my hands on the woman when I
> found out I'd have to restart, we'd have been spared from Phantasmagoria.
> Phantasmagoria was mildly entertaining, but not a game at all. Besides being
> ridiculously easy, the woman robbed all puzzles from previous games - like the
> get-key-with-nail-and-newspaper... it was an original puzzle... IN ALONE IN
> THE DARK 2 !!!
> For God's sake, Sierra, get rid of the imbecile - the design in her games
> are the ultimate proof of what you can achieve with a careful combination of
> laziness and complete lack of any visible talents.
> I'm sure I'm not alone here. What do you guys think?
Well, I don't completely agree here. I agree that her latest games have been
pretty bad, including King's Quest VII and Phantasmagoria. Just as a side note,
that "get-key-with-nail-and-newspaper" puzzle was not original in Alone in the
Dark 2. It is a very old puzzle. I remember it in Zork 2, which goes way back,
and I am betting that it was a well known trick well before any computer games
were out. Anyway, that is mostly beside the point. All the games in particular
that you mentioned were rather new. I agree that she has been diminishing in
game quality. I did love the old ones, though. The first 3 King's Quests,
especially I and II were great. In general, the King's Quest series has been
one of my favorites series' of all time. I was extremely disappointed with VII
and thought VI relied a little too much on copy protection puzzles, but other
than that I have very few complaints about them. I guess outside that series I
didn't like any of the games she made. It's probably all just a matter of
taste, though. Of course, I didn't run into that same end game problem in
King's Quest VI as you did. Those puzzles are always aweful and can ruin an
otherwise good game. I did have that problem in Return to Zork, which is a game
that I loved other than the bonding plant puzzle. This kind of poor design is
not unique to Roberta Williams.
talk2ul8r
Ernie
Noman
Matthew Murray wrote:
>
> On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Noman wrote:
> > [snip]
> > I agree that Sierra adventures have gone down... and I'll
> > think a 100 times before buying GK3 or QG5. I found GK2, an
> > extremely pointless game, and QG4 was so-so.
>
> > Noman, who thinks that KQ6 was the best Kings' Quest by a
> > BIG margin...
>
> Hooboy... Sorry, that statement invalidates the rest of your
> message. ;)
>
Yes, kind of ... heh.. But I didn't like KQ5 at all. (KQ4 was
good).. I think the post-90 Sierra games went through a
downward path.. But for some reason, I liked Kq6, SQ5
(yes, I don't know why, but I found SQ5 very entertaining)...
and PQ3 (only 'cuz of Jan Hammer's soundtrack).
And of course Gabriel Knight, is one of the best adventures,
I have ever played.
--
Noman
Noman
>
> I daresay it's better than ANY of the Monkey Island series. I was never so
> frightened and so enthralled at the little nuances in the game...from stublimg
> into bodies, finding crime scenes, spying on people, finding new secret passages.
> It was SO thrilling. The only gripe is that it's too hard.
Hard ? I won't say that it was even, 'Easy'.... There were no
puzzles in that game. You were just scrambling around the
mansion, and you had to find one body after another. Kind of
like "The Last Express" but not in real time, and with no
puzzles.
Hated that game (if it was a game)
Btw, Roberta Williams and most of the game designers of that
time had a big problem with designing puzzles that could
result in you getting stuck at a dead end, *much* later in the game
from the point you made that mistake. (and in most cases
that mistake involved a pretty moronic puzzle)
It was a good thing that Ron Gilbert came up with a game
in which you could not get stuck at a dead end, even
if you tried your darn best. Sierra picked that design
mentality finally. Kings Quest 6 was its first game
with a change. Gabriel Knight 1 followed soon.
--
Noman
Matthew Murray
On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Noman wrote:
> downward path.. But for some reason, I liked Kq6, SQ5
> (yes, I don't know why, but I found SQ5 very entertaining)...
Space Quest V was decent. >Not< as good as Space Quest III, but a
heck of a lot better than the crap that preceded and followed it.
> and PQ3 (only 'cuz of Jan Hammer's soundtrack).
A bad game, but miles better than Police Quest IV.
Raymond Pat
Matthew Murray wrote:
> On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Raymond Pat wrote
Oh, so you were able to answer ALL the questions at the end of the game? Bravo!
Genius!! Gee, you must be a true visionary.
> The Colonel's Bequest?!? Too hard? You've GOT to be kidding!
>
>
> Um... Okay... If you think King's Quest VI was very good, that's
> your problem, not anyone else's...
And who are YOU to say that KQ6 isn't good? I liked it. Are you going to fault me on
this?
>
>
> > Isn't that more of your own incompetency? I finished KQ6 without any problems,
> > without even looking at a walkthrough.
>
> Then you have a much less analytical mind than most people. Most
> of the people I know who played the game were frustrated because most of
> the puzzles didn't actually make very much sense. If you were able to
> make it past the fact that logic wasn't required for too many of the
> puzzles, more power to you. (The original poster is right, though--the
> lamp puzzle was >very< unfair.)
I though the game was actually too easy. I finished it without needing any help. My
friends also did not have much problems with it. What was so illogical about the
puzzles? The lamp puzzle, as in when you had to pick up the right lamp? c'mon! If
anyone was even playing attention to all the scenes with Alhazred and the genie, one
should remember hhow it looked like! I didn't pay much attention to it, and I got it
right w/o problems. Or do you mean Rollo the clown? You can finish it w/o ever talking
to him, if you disguise yourself in Beauty's costume. So I don't see the problem.
> Of course not. Everyone knows Roberta hasn't really had anything
> to do with the King's Quest series for years.
OK, admittedly on eof the reasions why I liked KQ6 so much is because Jane Jensen
co-wrote it. So there. If you hated KQ6, blame half it on her too!
> > This is stupid. I'm SURE you haven't playedeven HALf os Roberta Williams' games,
> > and here you are dissing her as if she was your whore. WTF?You described only 2
> > games of hers you had gripes with. Sure, Phantasmagoria was a big step down (so
> > was KQ7), but not everyone does something great all the time....
>
> Believe us, we >know< that! Mrs. Williams is an excellent example
> of someone like that!
Yes. But to say that she is an imbecile, has no talent, etc,etc, etc is VERY
demeaning. Surely you have enjoyed at least ONe of her games? I mean, what has Roberta
done to that guy to accept all this slamming?
> > ahem, Lord British
> > (UO and U8 are complete disasters). Have you played ANY of her earlier works?
>
> Yes.
>
> > Have you tried Time Zone?
>
> Yes.
>
> > It came out in 1981, and it was TOUGH. Very
> > challenging IMHO. She really did a good job there, and I think that game is on
> > par with any of Infocom's best.
>
> Compared to most of On-Line Systems' games of the period, there is
> more to it (it's certainly a lot bigger, and at the time, it cost a lot
> more--$99.95!), but harder? No, not really. Because it was bigger, there
> was necessarily more to do. But the game wasn't really >harder<. The
> puzzles were typical On-Line Systems fare for the time. They might have
> seemed harder to you >then<, but they weren't really that much different
> from most of their other games around then.
Yes, Suspended WAS hard, and so was Bureaucracy. They were probably the hardest games
on thge Adventure market. I found Time Zone to very very hard, but not completelyy
impossible like the two aforementioned games. Never was able to finish Suspended.
Passsedd Bureacracy with hint guide. Geez. I think that when games are THAT
difficult, it becomes tedious rather than enjoyable (although I actually liked both
games a lot because of their originality).
> As for being on par with Infocom's best... Um, last time I
> checked, Infocom never had a line in a game that read: You are in a
> field. There is a time machine here. ;) Say what you will about
> Infocom's games, but they were mature from the very beginning, and having
> to be restricted to two word commands is something that Infocom was never
> saddled with. As for Time Zone, it certainly didn't have too much of a
> story, and it really wasn't that hard. Have you ever played Suspended?
> Now >that< is a hard game.
Ugh. Zork.... The white house? Gee. That sounds pretty simple too. Or how about
Hitchiker's Guide to the galaxy? Everything is pitch black. Dang. But both games were
excellent. So what Is your point? That the game has to have more than two sentences
with flowery description beyond words? That isn't great writing to me.
> > You might not be alone, but the opinion you arrive
> > with is so uninformed and unresearched that it does not give weight to your
> > argument.
>
> The problem is that right now, the burden of proof is on you, and
> you're not even trying! You aren't able to defend anything about the
> games. That says more about you than it does about the original poster.
Huh? I'm trying to defend Roberta Williams' position by sayying that she DOES have
games worth playing. I'm sure YOU have to agree with that. You'll REALLY be in the
minority if you said you have NEVER enjoyed any of her games. So what does that say
about me? I'm not the one being hypocritical, trying to protect a guy who obviously
just wants to bad-mouth a person when the defendant has done nothing to him. I find
THAT despicable. He may not like her games, but millions have played them, and enjoyed
them.
> > Sure I think her works are getting worse, but dismissing her like this
> > is very insulting, to her AND to readers who enjoyed her past works.
>
> He's not dismissing her at all. Come on, at least try to >read<
> the message you're responding to. (Although, if you're a fan of more
> recent Sierra games, I can see how your reading skill might have fallen
> off a little bit.)
I DID read it. To quote him, he said, "get rid of the imbecile - the design in her
games> > are the ultimate proof of what you can achieve with a careful combination of
> > laziness and complete lack of any visible talents. the woman hasn't got one single
good game in her curriculum!"
1. calling her an imbecile. Oh. He REALLY isn't dismissing her at all! WTF? Did you
READ his post? And you think I read it wrong. Get a head check.
2. The woman hasn't got one single good game in her curriculum
Millions have played and liked her games. Saying that her games suck implies that we
all have no taste in gaming. What an insult.
These are just TWO of the original post's quotations. Now refute me that he ISN'T
bashing her.
Raymond
Raymond Pat
Noman wrote:
> I fail to see what was good about >writing< in earlier Sierra
> games.. Games like Quest for Glory 2 or Space Quest 3 or
> Police Quest 2 were good because they were interesting games
> with better puzzles... Writing was not their strength...
In some ways, I agree. I think Sq3 was just very clever though, from the Astro
Chicken mini-game (boy, do I miss that!), the outer-space McDonald's (I forgot
what it was called...it's been a LONG time), etc. That was the best SQ. Too
bad everything after was junk.
I like the QFG series as a whole, but too many bugs, from QFG2 (fire elemental
bug), QFG3 bugs (too many to list) toQFG4 disaster (ugh) hamper the whole
series. I still think QFG 1 was the best.
> I don't think all of the Sierra adentures (and all of the Zork
> games, text or graphics) combined, can match Gabriel
> Knight 1, in plot, writing and story.... In gameplay,
> believe it or not, GK1 gave me >more< freedom to try things
> out than any text parser ever did, IMHO...
I agree. I think ANY games compared to GK1 is irrelevant. It is the
high-water mark for gaming, as a whole.
Well, I think two other really high-standard Sierra games were Gold Rush! and
The Colonel's Bequest. Truly great games ignored by time.
> I agree that Sierra adventures have gone down... and I'll
> think a 100 times before buying GK3 or QG5. I found GK2, an
> extremely pointless game, and QG4 was so-so.
Really? I very much enjoyed GK2, although I did have gripes about it. I'm
excited about QFG5 because it looks like the game is returning to its roots.
Same as GK3. I hope the recent fiascos at Sierra (ie., Lords of Magic, Red
Baron II, Sierra Pro Pilot, Football Pro '98, ad nauseum) won't affect the
quality of those games (but I somehow think it's wishful thinking). It's really
too bad that Sierra is now like a chicken without its head. It tries to be in
too many places at the same time.
> --
> Noman, who thinks that KQ6 was the best Kings' Quest by a
> BIG margin...
I agree......marginally. I also really liked KQ3.
Ed Polanco
thya...@sol.com.br wrote:
> >>>>> My incompetence? I think not. If I failed to choose the right lamp in a
> totally random puzzle, than it means I wasn't very lucky. If you got the right
> one the first time you played, than congratulations, chances of that happening
> are of 20%, since there are ABSOLUTELY NO CLUES to what lamp you should be
> needing by the end of the game. RW's lousy game design denotes her
> incompetence, not mine. When you get stuck in a Lucas Arts or Jane Jensen
> game, it's because you can't figure out what to do, not because the game let
> you screw things up by, say, letting you procceed without a required item.
I enjoyed playing King's Quest VI. It's not my favorite adventure
game, but it was entertaining. I was able to finish the game without a
walkthrough. I did use a walkthrough later, but that was just to see
the different endings.
It's been a while since I've played it, but I never had a problem with
the logic involved in solving the puzzles. If I remember correctly, the
lamp choice is not random. Before you choose a lamp, there is a
cutscene in which you see the lamp that the genie uses. So I just
picked it's duplicate. I thought it might come in handy later. I don't
think you need the lamp to win the game. I think one of the endings
accounts for this, but I could be wrong about that.
KQ V was a totally different story. I thought that game was bad. The
worst being the damn throw the pie in the face of the yeti puzzle.
> And I found the whole game very sub-par, starting with the childish
> save-the-princess story.
It's a King's Quest game. What did you expect? It's based on fairy
tales, and the save the princess story is pretty much a standard. Why
did you even buy the game if you knew before you played it that you were
not going to like the story?
--
Ed Polanco (esp...@psu.edu)
Rob Merritt
thya...@sol.com.br wrote:
> Maybe Sierra should send William's home and give Jane Jensen some extra
>budget... :) oh, and they could kiss Al Lowe goodbye too. Has anyone found a
>good joke in LSL7? And the puns...
I really enjoyed LSL7. Its my favorite LSL game under the first one.
The puns made the game.
Rob Merritt
My Might and Magic page:http://www.jagunet.com/~robertm/homm.html
My Toy page starring Micronauts and LegoBlocks:http://www.jagunet.com/~robertm/micro.html
Mark Taylor
thya...@sol.com.br wrote:
> My incompetence? I think not. If I failed to choose the right lamp in a
>totally random puzzle, than it means I wasn't very lucky. If you got the right
>one the first time you played, than congratulations, chances of that happening
>are of 20%, since there are ABSOLUTELY NO CLUES to what lamp you should be
>needing by the end of the game.
ROFL!
You have picked one of the MOST LOGICAL puzzles in the game to knock!
There is at least one cut scene between the vizier and the genie where
the lamp is in foreground on the desk. 'Course, if you weren't paying
attention.....
FWIW, I have enjoyed the more recent KQs even though they have flaws.
What game doesn't? But if you MUST denigrate the game, at least choose
a valid excuse!
Mark
Mark Taylor Ma...@samadhi.demon.co.uk
Gamesplayer, idler & apprentice couch-potato
Rosemary Bocska
A little off-topic, but what is this "get-key-with-nail-and-newspaper"
solution that I keep reading about? I've never played either game,
but I'm curious as to what the puzzle, and what the solution was.
Regards,
Rosemary
Matthew Murray
On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Mark Taylor wrote:
> thya...@sol.com.br wrote:
>
> > My incompetence? I think not. If I failed to choose the right lamp in a
> >totally random puzzle, than it means I wasn't very lucky. If you got the right
> >one the first time you played, than congratulations, chances of that happening
> >are of 20%, since there are ABSOLUTELY NO CLUES to what lamp you should be
> >needing by the end of the game.
>
> ROFL!
>
> You have picked one of the MOST LOGICAL puzzles in the game to knock!
> There is at least one cut scene between the vizier and the genie where
> the lamp is in foreground on the desk. 'Course, if you weren't paying
> attention.....
Now, you see, that is one of the big problems I had with the game.
Yes, it is possible to see the lamp there and thus know which one you are
supposed to pick, but there is >no< way for ALEXANDER to know which lamp
to pick. It is only because the player sees the cut scene that they are
able to instruct Alexander which lamp is the correct one. From
Alexander's point of view, he does not >see< the cut scene, so >any< lamp
he picks is just a guess. That really >does< bug me, so it still makes
the puzzle a poor one in my opinion. Is there a way to figure out the
correct lamp? Yes. Is there a way for >Alexander< to figure out the
correct lamp? No.
> FWIW, I have enjoyed the more recent KQs even though they have flaws.
> What game doesn't? But if you MUST denigrate the game, at least choose
> a valid excuse!
I think it >is< valid, just not the way he explained it.
thya...@sol.com.br
> >But Roberta Williams is no fraud and certainly not an imbecile. Sierra is
> >one of the oldest softwarehouses that still exists and Roberta Williams has
> >played an important role in it's history. I like her philosophy about games
> >and her currage to create games that appeals women or children. She also
> >very good in recognizing talented people like Jane Jensen.
> >In her own games she always fails to convert good ideas into good products.
> >Maybe she should use her ideas to inspire others and let them create the
> >games.
> >
> >Just my two cents,
> >
> >Dolf
Hmmm... good point. We do have a lot to thank Williams and Sierra for, but
surely not for things like Outpost or KQ6. If, in any way, she's responsible
for Jensen's work, then God bless her. But please, no more Phantasmagoria.
thya...@sol.com.br
OK, admittedly on eof the reasions why I liked KQ6 so much is because Jane
Jensen co-wrote it. So there. If you hated KQ6, blame half it on her too!
>>>>>>>> Hmmm... ok. Jensen, lousy job you did there. Gabriel Knight, though,
heh? Nice way to make up for that.
Yes. But to say that she is an imbecile, has no talent, etc,etc, etc is
VERY demeaning. Surely you have enjoyed at least ONe of her games? I mean,
what has Roberta done to that guy to accept all this slamming?
>>>>>>>> Yup, you're half-right there. I'm sorry I used the word I did, but
that doesn't invalidate my point. What did she do? You mean, apart from making
me waste money? After Phantasmagoria, I learned to buy from stores with return
policy - and I should thank her for that, or I'd be stuck with Battle Cruiser
3000AD until today.
Huh? I'm trying to defend Roberta Williams' position by sayying that she
DOES have games worth playing. I'm sure YOU have to agree with that.
>>>>>>>>> No, I don't have to, and nobody else has to. As much as not everyone
has to agree with my original post. If you like the woman's work, fine, just
say so. I won't agree, but I'll respect that.
thya...@sol.com.br
So what does that say about me? I'm not the one being hypocritical, trying
to protect a guy who obviously just wants to bad-mouth a person when the
defendant has done nothing to him. I find THAT despicable. He may not like
her games, but millions have played them, and enjoyed them.
>>>>>>> Bad-mouth? Ok, I've never played any of those games, I just didn't
like her face and thought I could have fun by making up things about
Phantasmagoria and KQ. And, guess what, the design faults I made up for KQ6
actually exist! Gee, what a coincidence.
Saying that her games suck implies that we all have no taste in gaming.
What an insult.
>>>>>>>> It doesn't imply anything. It clearly says I don't like her work.
Period. "We all" surely doesn't fit - I'm not alone here. And if you come out
and say that Civilzation or Le Chuck's Revenge were lousy games, I won't be
insulted at all. I'll just have to disagree.
Syed Noman Ahmad
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.98030...@titan.cc.wwu.edu>,
Matthew Murray <mmu...@cc.wwu.edu> wrote:
>On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Noman wrote:
>
>> downward path.. But for some reason, I liked Kq6, SQ5
>> (yes, I don't know why, but I found SQ5 very entertaining)...
>
> Space Quest V was decent. >Not< as good as Space Quest III, but a
>heck of a lot better than the crap that preceded and followed it.
>
I agree.. 100%
>> and PQ3 (only 'cuz of Jan Hammer's soundtrack).
>
> A bad game, but miles better than Police Quest IV.
>
I know it was bad, but the soundtrack was great :-) I bought
a Soundblaster V2.0 just before buying PQ3..
And Police Quest 4 had some of the most dull and uninteresting
characters I have seen. The central guy, had as much personality
as a brick wall (one that doesn't have any graffiti)
--
Noman
Steve Young
Raymond Pat <rpha...@polymail.calpoly.edu> wrote in article
<34FA7F09...@polymail.calpoly.edu>...> > Let's face it: the woman hasn't got one single good game in her
curriculum!
>
ever, in fact
> I daresay it's better than ANY of the Monkey Island series. I was never
so
> frightened and so enthralled at the little nuances in the game...from
stublimg
> into bodies, finding crime scenes, spying on people, finding new secret
passages.
> It was SO thrilling. The only gripe is that it's too hard.
> > First, the dreadful King's Quest game: KQ6 was the most infuriating
gaming
> > experience ever. In that stupid game you could screw things up just by
not
> > entering the right screen at the right time !!
games
> > are the ultimate proof of what you can achieve with a careful
combination of
> > laziness and complete lack of any visible talents.
>
Williams' games,
> and here you are dissing her as if she was your whore. WTF?You described
only 2
> games of hers you had gripes with. Sure, Phantasmagoria was a big step
down (so
Lord British
> (UO and U8 are complete disasters). Have you played ANY of her earlier
works?
> challenging IMHO. She really did a good job there, and I think that game
is on
you arrive
> with is so uninformed and unresearched that it does not give weight to
your
like this
> is very insulting, to her AND to readers who enjoyed her past works.
I agree with you totally. Sierra and Roberta Williams games may have gone
downhill in recent years, but she/they have given much enjoyment over the
years and have advanced adventures in general. I have heard all about Time
Zone when it came, and it is supposed to be huge. Do you know what it was
released (was it just Apple2) on and where you might be able to get a copy.
Sorry about cutting out parts of your message.
thya...@sol.com.br
>
> > And I found the whole game very sub-par, starting with the childish
> > save-the-princess story.
>
> It's a King's Quest game. What did you expect? It's based on fairy
> tales, and the save the princess story is pretty much a standard. Why
> did you even buy the game if you knew before you played it that you were
> not going to like the story?
> --
> Ed Polanco (esp...@psu.edu)
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I didn't know I wouldn't like the story, Ed. Just because it's
based on fairy tales, it doesn't mean it must be so clichè-riddled. And you
can have a great story even when you start with a concept that isn't new or
original - ultimately, it depends on how you develop it.
athol-brose
In article <34fc24d6...@news.istar.ca>,
Rosemary Bocska <rbo...@butterworths.ca> wrote:
>A little off-topic, but what is this "get-key-with-nail-and-newspaper"
>solution that I keep reading about? I've never played either game,
>but I'm curious as to what the puzzle, and what the solution was.
Uh, a key is in a keyhole -- on the other side of a locked door. You slide
a newspaper under the door, poke something (nail, knife, whatever) into
your side of the keyhole, and then retrieve the newspaper and you have the
key.
>>> ridiculously easy, the woman robbed all puzzles from previous games - like the
>>> get-key-with-nail-and-newspaper... it was an original puzzle... IN ALONE IN
It wasn't even an original puzzle when it appeared in Zork 2, and that
far predated "Alone in the Dark".
--
r. n. dominick -- cinn...@one.net
My news server lost all messages recently; please excuse me if I have
missed anything.
Dolf Schuurman
Francis Li <f...@uclink4.berkeley.edu> schreef in artikel
<6df8i4$l94$1...@agate.berkeley.edu>...
> Remember that "Phantasmagoria 2" was NOT written by Roberta Williams, but
by
> Lorelei Shannon (sp?) who co-wrote King's Quest 7 with her. Also,
remember
> that everybody's favorite Jane Jensen co-wrote King's Quest 6.
Sorry about that. Today i have read an interview with R.W. Phantasmagoria 2
was also mentioned. She sayed that the game was "pretty good" and "rather
enjoyed" playing it. I never played KQ 6, so i can't comment on that.
Nick Jong
Raymond Pat <rpha...@polymail.calpoly.edu> wrote:
>Really? I very much enjoyed GK2, although I did have gripes about it. I'm
>excited about QFG5 because it looks like the game is returning to its roots.
>Same as GK3. I hope the recent fiascos at Sierra (ie., Lords of Magic, Red
>Baron II, Sierra Pro Pilot, Football Pro '98, ad nauseum) won't affect the
>quality of those games (but I somehow think it's wishful thinking). It's really
>too bad that Sierra is now like a chicken without its head. It tries to be in
>too many places at the same time.
I'm also excited about QG5, being a faithful follower of the series
since the beginning and all. But frankly, I'm worried. Multiplayer QfG?!
What were they thinking?
--
"It's a magical world, Hobbes, 'ol buddy... Let's go exploring!"
-Calvin, "Calvin and Hobbes"
Rocker
> For God's sake, Sierra, get rid of the imbecile -
>
to divorce her and even then she still owns 1/2 the company.
Raymond Phathanavirangoon
On Tue, 3 Mar 1998 thya...@sol.com.br wrote:
> OK, admittedly on eof the reasions why I liked KQ6 so much is because Jane
> Jensen co-wrote it. So there. If you hated KQ6, blame half it on her too!
Well, if you didn't like it, that's fine by me.
> >>>>>>>> Hmmm... ok. Jensen, lousy job you did there. Gabriel Knight, though,
> heh? Nice way to make up for that.
>
>
> Yes. But to say that she is an imbecile, has no talent, etc,etc, etc is
> VERY demeaning. Surely you have enjoyed at least ONe of her games? I mean,
> what has Roberta done to that guy to accept all this slamming?
>
> >>>>>>>> Yup, you're half-right there. I'm sorry I used the word I did, but
> that doesn't invalidate my point. What did she do? You mean, apart from making
> me waste money? After Phantasmagoria, I learned to buy from stores with return
> policy - and I should thank her for that, or I'd be stuck with Battle Cruiser
> 3000AD until today.
No, I didn't disagree with your point, but I found the TONE of it very
offending. I started getting into adventue games right after finishing
KQ1 in 1986. I was so trilled I wanted to get more KQs. She invariably
had a huge impact on my life, otherwise I wouldn't be trying to work in
the computer gaming industry now! :) Of course, I've played text games
before KQ, but the graphics blew me away.
If you didn't like Phantas, you could always return it. Sierra's had a
30-day money-back gaurantee for a long time. If you didn't use that
option, it's your loss.
>
> Huh? I'm trying to defend Roberta Williams' position by sayying that she
> DOES have games worth playing. I'm sure YOU have to agree with that.
> >>>>>>>>> No, I don't have to, and nobody else has to. As much as not everyone
> has to agree with my original post. If you like the woman's work, fine, just
> say so. I won't agree, but I'll respect that.
No, I meant Matthew Murray, not you. It's obvious you don't like ANY of
her works :). I guess everyone has different tastes. But I personally
did not like KQ7, KQ5 now Phantas either.
Raymond Phathanavirangoon
On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Ed Polanco wrote:
> thya...@sol.com.br wrote:
>
> > >>>>> My incompetence? I think not. If I failed to choose the right lamp in a
> > totally random puzzle, than it means I wasn't very lucky. If you got the right
> > one the first time you played, than congratulations, chances of that happening
> > are of 20%, since there are ABSOLUTELY NO CLUES to what lamp you should be
> > needing by the end of the game. RW's lousy game design denotes her
> > incompetence, not mine. When you get stuck in a Lucas Arts or Jane Jensen
> > game, it's because you can't figure out what to do, not because the game let
> > you screw things up by, say, letting you procceed without a required item.
1. Jane Jensen designed KQ6, with Roberta as a consultant. Blame HEr on
the game.
2. That's why the puzzle explicitly says aftwerwards that it was by
random chance that you have the right lamp. It made sense to me. IT's
not the designer's fault if you somehow feel irked by that particular
puzzle. No one else seem bothered by it. I'm more bothered with some
obscure puzzles in Monkey Island II than in KQ6 (like giving monocle to
dread as a replacement for the eye that sees the world....geez! That is S
obtuse!)
3. You don't need the lamp to finish the game. So what was it about
needing something in order to finish the game? Huh? Did you even PLAY
KQ6? (sorry, Ed, not addressed to you!) :>
>
> I enjoyed playing King's Quest VI. It's not my favorite adventure
> game, but it was entertaining. I was able to finish the game without a
> walkthrough. I did use a walkthrough later, but that was just to see
> the different endings.
Same with me.
> It's been a while since I've played it, but I never had a problem with
> the logic involved in solving the puzzles. If I remember correctly, the
> lamp choice is not random. Before you choose a lamp, there is a
> cutscene in which you see the lamp that the genie uses. So I just
> picked it's duplicate. I thought it might come in handy later. I don't
> think you need the lamp to win the game. I think one of the endings
> accounts for this, but I could be wrong about that.
You don't need the lamp to win. He just thinks so. That's why he's
WRONG.
> KQ V was a totally different story. I thought that game was bad. The
> worst being the damn throw the pie in the face of the yeti puzzle.
Agreed. KQ5 may have been a technological breaktrhough but game-wise it
was a dud.
> > And I found the whole game very sub-par, starting with the childish
> > save-the-princess story.
Yes.
> It's a King's Quest game. What did you expect? It's based on fairy
> tales, and the save the princess story is pretty much a standard. Why
> did you even buy the game if you knew before you played it that you were
> not going to like the story?
Well, I thought KQ3 was very good, 'cause I didn't know Gwydion was the
Prince until very end...at least SOme brain went into that.
> --
> Ed Polanco (esp...@psu.edu)
>
>
Raymond Phathanavirangoon
On Tue, 3 Mar 1998 thya...@sol.com.br wrote:
>
>
> So what does that say about me? I'm not the one being hypocritical, trying
> to protect a guy who obviously just wants to bad-mouth a person when the
> defendant has done nothing to him. I find THAT despicable. He may not like
> her games, but millions have played them, and enjoyed them.
>
> >>>>>>> Bad-mouth? Ok, I've never played any of those games, I just didn't
> like her face and thought I could have fun by making up things about
> Phantasmagoria and KQ. And, guess what, the design faults I made up for KQ6
> actually exist! Gee, what a coincidence.
What deisgn fault? You DON'T need the lamp to finish the game!!!! I have
stated that MANY times before! There are 4 ways to finish the game, and
if you missed something, you could always use another route to pass. So I
DON'T think the "design" flaw you mention DOES exist.
Well, the tone of your post seemed like what you just mentioned above.
Also, you dismissed her, yet you say you haven't played all her games.
Now, if you played ALL of them and hated all, then it's different. But
NOT playing all her games and then saying she is talentless, I'm sorry.
You just DON'T qualify to make that judgement. what happened if you
played some game of hers later and liked it? Well, that defeats
everything you've said, doesn't it?
> Saying that her games suck implies that we all have no taste in gaming.
> What an insult.
>
> >>>>>>>> It doesn't imply anything. It clearly says I don't like her work.
> Period. "We all" surely doesn't fit - I'm not alone here. And if you come out
> and say that Civilzation or Le Chuck's Revenge were lousy games, I won't be
> insulted at all. I'll just have to disagree.
I wouldn't say either were lousy...although I think Monkey Island II was
nowhere near as good as the original. That damn
monocle-asd-replacement-for-eye-that-sees-the-world puzzle STILLL
infuriates me. Now THAT was an example of an obscure puzzle.
Raymond
Matthew Murray
On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Rosemary Bocska wrote:
> A little off-topic, but what is this "get-key-with-nail-and-newspaper"
> solution that I keep reading about? I've never played either game,
> but I'm curious as to what the puzzle, and what the solution was.
You are presented with a locked door, whose key is stuck >inside<
the lock. You slide a piece of newspaper under the door, and then you use
a long, thin device (a letter opener in Zork II or Zork: Grand Inquisitor,
for example) to eject the key out onto the other side. You pull the paper
and you have the key.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew Murray
On 3 Mar 1998, Syed Noman Ahmad wrote:
> And Police Quest 4 had some of the most dull and uninteresting
> characters I have seen. The central guy, had as much personality
> as a brick wall (one that doesn't have any graffiti)
There WERE no characters. It just had talking mannequins running
around doing things. Probably so much the better that there were no
characters, since there was practically no story. That is in the top five
worst games I have ever played, and I've played a >lot<. I will never in
my life understand what the point of that "game" was.
Matthew Murray
On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Nick Jong wrote:
> Raymond Pat <rpha...@polymail.calpoly.edu> wrote:
>
> >Really? I very much enjoyed GK2, although I did have gripes about it. I'm
> >excited about QFG5 because it looks like the game is returning to its roots.
> >Same as GK3. I hope the recent fiascos at Sierra (ie., Lords of Magic, Red
> >Baron II, Sierra Pro Pilot, Football Pro '98, ad nauseum) won't affect the
> >quality of those games (but I somehow think it's wishful thinking). It's really
> >too bad that Sierra is now like a chicken without its head. It tries to be in
> >too many places at the same time.
>
> I'm also excited about QG5, being a faithful follower of the series
> since the beginning and all. But frankly, I'm worried. Multiplayer QfG?!
> What were they thinking?
THEY WEREN'T. If they had been, they may have realized that they
are throwing out the entire premise that the previous four games in the
series was built on. They are basically throwing away everything they've
already done in the series (and with the first two games, that was >a
lot<) merely so they can bill it as multiplayer game. It's stupid, it's a
mistake, and it >won't< work. It makes me angry just thinking about it.
Sierra has sold out with every other series, but I honestly thought that
Quest for Glory might be spared. Silly me. As long as it makes them
money, why should Sierra care? Let them do what they want. I have better
things to waste my money on than their massive egos.
Matthew Murray
On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Raymond Phathanavirangoon wrote:
> 2. That's why the puzzle explicitly says aftwerwards that it was by
> random chance that you have the right lamp. It made sense to me. IT's
> not the designer's fault if you somehow feel irked by that particular
> puzzle. No one else seem bothered by it. I'm more bothered with some
> obscure puzzles in Monkey Island II than in KQ6 (like giving monocle to
> dread as a replacement for the eye that sees the world....geez! That is S
> obtuse!)
Oh please! You have GOT to be kidding me! The lamp puzzle was
unfair and pathetic. ALEXANDER COULD NEVER SOLVE THAT PUZZLE!!!
Alexander could >never< have more than a 20% chance of getting the lamp
right. The only way the puzzle can be correctly solved beyond random
chance is the omniscence of the game player, and puzzles that rely on
tricks like that have >always< rubbed me the wrong way. The player SHOULD
NOT EXIST. Only the character should exist. If the only way the PLAYER
can solve a puzzle is to have the CHARACTER perform an action that
requires information only the PLAYER possesses, there is a big, huge
problem with the design of the puzzle.
> 3. You don't need the lamp to finish the game. So what was it about
> needing something in order to finish the game? Huh? Did you even PLAY
> KQ6? (sorry, Ed, not addressed to you!) :>
That's not the point. Whether or not you need it to finish the
game, the puzzle itself is unfair.
> > KQ V was a totally different story. I thought that game was bad. The
> > worst being the damn throw the pie in the face of the yeti puzzle.
>
> Agreed. KQ5 may have been a technological breaktrhough but game-wise it
> was a dud.
You're deriding King's Quest V for having a bad story in the same
message you are talking about King's Quest VI?!? Pray tell, have you ever
played King's Quest II? If not, I would really recommend it. The story
in King's Quest V was more thoughtful. Better executed? Open to debate.
But it's the package of King's Quest VI that makes it so unpalatable--the
puzzles are inane and the "characters" (such as they are) silly. At least
in King's Quest V, there was something >at stake<. Let's face it--the
stakes in King's Quest VI just weren't that high. Why the authors really
expected us to care so much about Cassima based on the very small
amount of time spent with her near the end of King's Quest V is beyond me.
Why they decided to have Alexander behave in the manner he did--which is
tremendously uncharacteristic of Alexander, if you ask me--is merely one
more problem. No, King's Quest V wasn't perfect, but it was much better
than King's Quest VI.
> > > And I found the whole game very sub-par, starting with the childish
> > > save-the-princess story.
>
> Yes.
You just described King's Quest VI. Yes, it was very sub-par.
What I can't figure out is where you switched topics--you WERE talking
about King's Quest V, but there really isn't a "save-the-princess" story
in King's Quest V.
Matthew Murray
On Wed, 4 Mar 1998 billand...@hotmail.com wrote:
> I'm more worried - they seem to be pushing the 3D technology pretty
> heavy, and it might be more of a hack and slash game - but we'll see -
> Sierra has been pretty good about putting out demos.
You >should< be worried. The game I have read about isn't King's
Quest. Mask of Eternity, near as I can figure, is King's Quest in >name<
only.
Matthew Murray
On Wed, 4 Mar 1998 billand...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Matthew Murray <mmu...@cc.wwu.edu> wrote:
>
> > Of >course< the earlier Sierra games are worth playing. They were
> >much better in terms of gameplay and writing (you know, the IMPORTANT
> >things) than the crap that passes for computer games today. Start at the
> >beginning with the original King's Quest, and move on forward from there.
>
> If I had to choose a Sierra game to start with, it would be either of
> the Gabriel Knight games - really great.
I would never advise anyone to start with them, but they are both
pretty good games.
> If you like hybrid
> rpg/adventure games, try Betrayal at Krondor (free download from
> Sierra), and the Quest for Glory series.
The first two Quest for Glory games yes (only if QFG1 is played in
its original and correct incarnation, not the bastardization with the
no-typing interface), Betrayal at Krondor NO. Awful, pointless game.
Avoid avoid avoid!
> Both the Kings Quest and the Space Quest games can be picked up in a
> collection quite inexpensively. Sierra advertises them as "digital
> antiques", and they are - the earlier ones don't have sound (except
> from the speaker). Personally, I liked the later Kings Quest games -
> 5, 6, and 7, rather than the earlier. Possibly because I played them
> before playing the earlier games, so there was no nostalgia factor.
I feel very sorry for you for two reasons. First of all, that you
actually consider that King's Quests V, VI, and VII (ESPECIALLY VII) are
better than the earlier games in the series, and second that you didn't
get the opportunity to play them the first time around. When those games
first came out, they had a very special magic to them that games today
just don't have. Sierra has forgotten how to put magic and love into
their computer games, and it really shows. Maybe it's hard for you to
see because you didn't play them the first time around, but the
collections serve to show more than anything else what Sierra once did
right but is now doing wrong.
> The early ones have CGA graphics - quite blocky.
So?
> The story line is
> OK, but there are some annoyances.
Some annoyances? Sorry, the plots of the first two King's Quest
games aren't great, but the games as a whole are more fun than King's
Quest VI or King's Quest VII. As for the writing of KQ3 and KQ4, don't
even say there are some annoyances. Maybe, but at least their annoyances
aren't the entire stories! King's Quest VII is exceptionally bad in this
regard. Can you HONESTLY compare the story of King's Quest VII with the
story of King's Quest III and tell me that the former is better written?
> Some of the puzzles are based on
> the difficulty you have maneovering with the keyboard.
Like...?
Once again, I feel very sorry for you. There is more to life than
moving a mouse. At least with the original Sierra games, you didn't have
a group of icons that you had to click on to perform actions or (even
worse) merely ONE icon that does everything. Even if I did have trouble
maneuvering with the keyboard (which I can never recall), I still much
preferred that method of movement and puzzle interaction to the way it is
now.
Matthew Murray
On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Raymond Phathanavirangoon wrote:
> What deisgn fault? You DON'T need the lamp to finish the game!!!! I have
> stated that MANY times before! There are 4 ways to finish the game, and
> if you missed something, you could always use another route to pass. So I
> DON'T think the "design" flaw you mention DOES exist.
Yes, it DOES. Whether you need the lamp or not is irrelevant.
You are using information obtained as the player to solve a puzzle as
>Alexander<. Whether or not you need the lamp to finish the game, that is
>poor< puzzle design.
> I wouldn't say either were lousy...although I think Monkey Island II was
> nowhere near as good as the original. That damn
> monocle-asd-replacement-for-eye-that-sees-the-world puzzle STILLL
> infuriates me. Now THAT was an example of an obscure puzzle.
<shakes head>
To think that people like >this< are playing computer games today.
<sigh>
billand...@hotmail.com
Matthew Murray <mmu...@cc.wwu.edu> wrote:
>On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, David Monaghan wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 1 Mar 1998 12:11:54 -0800, Matthew Murray <mmu...@cc.wwu.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Neil Schuh wrote:
>>
>> > I'm just considering Sierra a total loss now. A shame--they used to do
>> >some good stuff. We haven't seen any games like Hero's Quest or
>> >King's Quest IV or Leisure Suit Larry II in a long time.
>>
>> I used to be a text adventure game devotee ( Infocom, of course ) and
>> have just started playing again after getting the Zork Legacy
>> Collection and ZGI. If you can place yourself in that mindset are the
>> early KQ/other Sierra games worth playing ? And if so which would be
>> the best to try first and how should I get it?
>
> Of >course< the earlier Sierra games are worth playing. They were
>much better in terms of gameplay and writing (you know, the IMPORTANT
>things) than the crap that passes for computer games today. Start at the
>beginning with the original King's Quest, and move on forward from there.
>
If I had to choose a Sierra game to start with, it would be either of
the Gabriel Knight games - really great. If you like hybrid
rpg/adventure games, try Betrayal at Krondor (free download from
Sierra), and the Quest for Glory series.
Both the Kings Quest and the Space Quest games can be picked up in a
collection quite inexpensively. Sierra advertises them as "digital
antiques", and they are - the earlier ones don't have sound (except
from the speaker). Personally, I liked the later Kings Quest games -
5, 6, and 7, rather than the earlier. Possibly because I played them
before playing the earlier games, so there was no nostalgia factor.
The early ones have CGA graphics - quite blocky. The story line is
OK, but there are some annoyances. Some of the puzzles are based on
the difficulty you have maneovering with the keyboard.
Bottom line: I would get the Gabriel Knight games, and Betrayal at
Krondor. Then I would make sure I played all of the great Lucas Arts
games - Sam and Max, Day of the Tentacle, the Monkey Island trilogy,
etc. I also think that the earlier Lucas Arts games had a better
story line than the Kings Quest series - games like Zak McKraken, etc.
billand...@hotmail.com
>I see I'm in the minority here by disagreeing with you. I have loved all
>the King's Quest games (the first one was the first PC computer game I ever
>played), The Colonel's Bequest, and thought Phantasmagoria was just fine -
>although I agree it was not as much of a game as it was an interactive
>movie. The only problem I have had with Sierra adventure games - which they
>have recently begun to get away from - is the single curor interface where
>you just click away. Roberta Williams' games have driven the adventure
>gaming genre since the 80s. True, Lucasarts stepped in and are often
>regarded as the masters of this genre now (and after Curse of Monkey Island,
>they probably are), but Williams was the one who attempted to push the
>technology with each new game. I used to upgrade my old computers around
>the time of each new King's Quest release.
>
>And is noone really excited about Mask of Eternity? Come on! If it comes
>together as well as they are hoping it will, it will be to adventure games
>what Mario 64 was to console platform games.
Raymond Pat
Matthew Murray wrote:
> On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Raymond Phathanavirangoon wrote:
>
> > What deisgn fault? You DON'T need the lamp to finish the game!!!! I have
> > stated that MANY times before! There are 4 ways to finish the game, and
> > if you missed something, you could always use another route to pass. So I
> > DON'T think the "design" flaw you mention DOES exist.
>
> Yes, it DOES. Whether you need the lamp or not is irrelevant.
> You are using information obtained as the player to solve a puzzle as
> >Alexander<. Whether or not you need the lamp to finish the game, that is
> >poor< puzzle design.
Great. Now he goes and offers NO proof as to why one DOES need the lamp. Since,
the oh-so-mighty Matthew can't seem to get it, I'll tell you how. You DON'T NEED
THE LAMP because there are two other ways to finish the game. You can either give
the mint to the Genie at the end (instead of using the lamp on him) to conquer him,
them follow the same procedures. Or you can disguise yourself in Beauty's costume
and go inside.
See, I at least can provide EVIDENCE of the game. But you can't. You just say
"YES IT DOES". Gee. Maybe you're not half as smart as you think you are. And you
even reduced ME to personal criticism, which is very below me, but seems right up
your alley.
> > I wouldn't say either were lousy...although I think Monkey Island II was
> > nowhere near as good as the original. That damn
> > monocle-asd-replacement-for-eye-that-sees-the-world puzzle STILLL
> > infuriates me. Now THAT was an example of an obscure puzzle.
>
> <shakes head>
> To think that people like >this< are playing computer games today.
> <sigh
With THIS inane comment. I feel sorry for you, mister, for being so deluded in
your own grandeur of self-led importance and supposed intelligence. You have posed
NO logic to your conclusions, have not EVEN provided satisfactory debate against my
claims, and is definitely OBSESSED with one particular puzzle which very few other
people have had problems with. I believe the problem is, you , and not me. No
wonder you could solve those illogical puzzles so well.
Raymond
Raymond Pat
Matthew Murray wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Mar 1998 billand...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > Matthew Murray <mmu...@cc.wwu.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > Of >course< the earlier Sierra games are worth playing. They were
> > >much better in terms of gameplay and writing (you know, the IMPORTANT
> > >things) than the crap that passes for computer games today. Start at the
> > >beginning with the original King's Quest, and move on forward from there.
> >
> > If I had to choose a Sierra game to start with, it would be either of
> > the Gabriel Knight games - really great.
>
> I would never advise anyone to start with them, but they are both
> pretty good games.
>
> > If you like hybrid
> > rpg/adventure games, try Betrayal at Krondor (free download from
> > Sierra), and the Quest for Glory series.
>
> The first two Quest for Glory games yes (only if QFG1 is played in
> its original and correct incarnation, not the bastardization with the
> no-typing interface), Betrayal at Krondor NO. Awful, pointless game.
> Avoid avoid avoid!
HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!
And this is the guy who said that there people like me playing games nowadays (a
put down). And here he is, Mr. Matthew Murray, dissing one of the greatest RPGs of
all time!!!! My god!!!!!
And I thought you lost it before!!!!
Betrayal at Krondor is one of THE best games EVER. There's a LEGION of people who
will back me up on this (if I have to, I'll bring in the whole wrath of
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg!). Not liking this game gives you NO right to critique
other people's tastes, as you have done with mine. I'm just giving you back some
of your own medicine, which you richly deserves.
> > Both the Kings Quest and the Space Quest games can be picked up in a
> > collection quite inexpensively. Sierra advertises them as "digital
> > antiques", and they are - the earlier ones don't have sound (except
> > from the speaker). Personally, I liked the later Kings Quest games -
> > 5, 6, and 7, rather than the earlier. Possibly because I played them
> > before playing the earlier games, so there was no nostalgia factor.
>
> I feel very sorry for you for two reasons. First of all, that you
Oh, he IS? Feeling sorry? Wow, Mr Guru is pitying us for our misguided ways! We
will all be punished for loving Betrayal at Krondor and King's Quest 6! Boo hoo!
> actually consider that King's Quests V, VI, and VII (ESPECIALLY VII) are
> better than the earlier games in the series, and second that you didn't
> get the opportunity to play them the first time around. When those games
> first came out, they had a very special magic to them that games today
> just don't have. Sierra has forgotten how to put magic and love into
> their computer games, and it really shows. Maybe it's hard for you to
> see because you didn't play them the first time around, but the
> collections serve to show more than anything else what Sierra once did
> right but is now doing wrong.
>
> > The early ones have CGA graphics - quite blocky.
>
> So?
Wow, I actually agree with you here. I find that the graphics didn't detract from
my enjoyments.
> > The story line is
> > OK, but there are some annoyances.
>
> Some annoyances? Sorry, the plots of the first two King's Quest
> games aren't great, but the games as a whole are more fun than King's
> Quest VI or King's Quest VII. As for the writing of KQ3 and KQ4, don't
> even say there are some annoyances. Maybe, but at least their annoyances
> aren't the entire stories! King's Quest VII is exceptionally bad in this
> regard. Can you HONESTLY compare the story of King's Quest VII with the
> story of King's Quest III and tell me that the former is better written?
Wow, I agree with you here too. Far out, dude. But that's only cause KQ3 is my
favorite.
> > Some of the puzzles are based on
> > the difficulty you have maneovering with the keyboard.
>
> Like...?
> Once again, I feel very sorry for you. There is more to life than
> moving a mouse. At least with the original Sierra games, you didn't have
> a group of icons that you had to click on to perform actions or (even
> worse) merely ONE icon that does everything. Even if I did have trouble
> maneuvering with the keyboard (which I can never recall), I still much
> preferred that method of movement and puzzle interaction to the way it is
> now.
You know, I might agree with you, but I'm not feeling "sorry" for them. Get off
your damn holier-than-thou perch then maybe we can discuss things in a more
civilized manner.
Kevin Grey
As both an avid RPGer and adventurer, I'll definitely back you up on this
one. BAK is one of my favorite games of all time. I replayed it this past
summer and it still addicted me like few have. The world graphics suck
pretty bad, but everything else is done with care and exceptional detail.
And for fans of "non-linear" games, in my opinion, BAK has an almost perfect
balance of "free-to-do-what-you-wish" gaming while still telling a great
story. The only other game I've seen with this good of a balance is
Fallout.
Kevin Grey
hel...@mail.telepac.pt
I agree, there were moments in kq6 wich were absolutely beautiful, like the
time we are leaded by the winged man, or when we are escorted by the dog
guards, or even qhen we send messages to the princess using a dove.
This game was the first adventure game i tried and I loved it.
Daniel
Elizabeth Yang wrote in message <34FB01...@eiy.com>...
<snip>
>I think one thing people need to realize is: KQ
>is a fairy tale. It is based on fairy tales. Many
>of the puzzles are from German folktales and some
>Middle East and Eastern Europe stories. For example,
>in KQ6, where the lady needed to be given the white
>rose, that was based on the original Beauty and the
>Beast, where Beauty asked her fathr to bring her
>the very first flower he saw on his way home, and
>the white rose was it.
<snip>
>- Liz
Jalik
Ok. She sold 7 million (!) games only of the King's Quest series. KQ6 and
Phantasmagoria are Sierras most sold games (NOT Gabriel Knight 1 or 2). And
if you are not good enough to play KQ, then just buy Monkey Island 3, and
solve it in a week or two.
thya...@sol.com.br skrev i meldingen <6db77g$gug$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
>
> How could such a bad game designer become famous?
> Let's face it: the woman hasn't got one single good game in her
curriculum!
> First, the dreadful King's Quest game: KQ6 was the most infuriating
gaming
>experience ever. In that stupid game you could screw things up just by not
>entering the right screen at the right time !! I remember getting very
close
>to the ending and not being able to finish the thing because I had not
talked
>to this guy in the very begining of the game. And I only discovered that
>because I got a walkthrough - if it depended on William's awful design, I'd
be
>wondering what to do forever !! If I had gotten my hands on the woman when
I
>found out I'd have to restart, we'd have been spared from Phantasmagoria.
> Phantasmagoria was mildly entertaining, but not a game at all. Besides
being
>ridiculously easy, the woman robbed all puzzles from previous games - like
the
>get-key-with-nail-and-newspaper... it was an original puzzle... IN ALONE IN
>THE DARK 2 !!!
> For God's sake, Sierra, get rid of the imbecile - the design in her games
>are the ultimate proof of what you can achieve with a careful combination
of
>laziness and complete lack of any visible talents.
> I'm sure I'm not alone here. What do you guys think?
Syed Noman Ahmad
In article <34FD3268...@polymail.calpoly.edu>,
Raymond Pat <rpha...@polymail.calpoly.edu> wrote:
>
>Matthew Murray wrote:
>
>> Betrayal at Krondor NO. Awful, pointless game.
>> Avoid avoid avoid!
>
>HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!
>
>And this is the guy who said that there people like me playing games nowadays (a
>put down). And here he is, Mr. Matthew Murray, dissing one of the greatest RPGs of
>all time!!!! My god!!!!!
>And I thought you lost it before!!!!
>
>Betrayal at Krondor is one of THE best games EVER. There's a LEGION of people who
Ray, count me out of that legion... BAK is pointless and extremely
boring game, IMHO. Although I must admit that the story is very nice.
For some reason, it gets boring very fast. I tried twice, and threw
it away around chapter 4-5.
My 2 cents.
--
Noman
Carlos DaSilva
David Morris wrote in message <34f9c14a...@news.earthlink.net>...
>On Sun, 01 Mar 1998 02:45:53 -0600, thya...@sol.com.br wrote:
>
>>
>> For God's sake, Sierra, get rid of the imbecile - the design in her
games
>>are the ultimate proof of what you can achieve with a careful combination
of
>>laziness and complete lack of any visible talents.
>> I'm sure I'm not alone here. What do you guys think?
>>
>>-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
>>http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
>
>
>be hard to get rid of her... since she and her husband own the
>company.
>
>David
Not anymore, Ken got the boot, and I doubt she'll be around after KQ8 bombs.
They have their millions, let them go off and die somewhere.
CJD
Carlos DaSilva
Mark Taylor wrote in message <34fd1e3e...@news.demon.co.uk>...
>thya...@sol.com.br wrote:
>
>> My incompetence? I think not. If I failed to choose the right lamp in a
>>totally random puzzle, than it means I wasn't very lucky. If you got the
right
>>one the first time you played, than congratulations, chances of that
happening
>>are of 20%, since there are ABSOLUTELY NO CLUES to what lamp you should be
>>needing by the end of the game.
>
>
>You have picked one of the MOST LOGICAL puzzles in the game to knock!
>There is at least one cut scene between the vizier and the genie where
>the lamp is in foreground on the desk. 'Course, if you weren't paying
>attention.....
The point is that Alexander wasn't there to actually see that lamp. Only the
omniscient player to give Alexander an Obi-Wan like suggestion.
>FWIW, I have enjoyed the more recent KQs even though they have flaws.
>What game doesn't? But if you MUST denigrate the game, at least choose
>a valid excuse!
It was a valid excuse.
CJD
>Mark
>
>Mark Taylor Ma...@samadhi.demon.co.uk
>Gamesplayer, idler & apprentice couch-potato
Raymond Pat
Syed Noman Ahmad wrote:
> In article <34FD3268...@polymail.calpoly.edu>,
> Raymond Pat <rpha...@polymail.calpoly.edu> wrote:
> >
> >Matthew Murray wrote:
> >
> >> Betrayal at Krondor NO. Awful, pointless game.
> >> Avoid avoid avoid!
> >
> >HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!
> >
> >And this is the guy who said that there people like me playing games nowadays (a
> >put down). And here he is, Mr. Matthew Murray, dissing one of the greatest RPGs of
> >all time!!!! My god!!!!!
> >And I thought you lost it before!!!!
> >
> >Betrayal at Krondor is one of THE best games EVER. There's a LEGION of people who
>
> Ray, count me out of that legion... BAK is pointless and extremely
> boring game, IMHO. Although I must admit that the story is very nice.
> For some reason, it gets boring very fast. I tried twice, and threw
> it away around chapter 4-5.
That's fine. I respect your opinion. I only have problems with people who go around
insulting the designer of games, calling her talentless, and an imbecile. I also have
problems with people who think too highly of themselves and go around criticizing
others' tastes when he has no reason to. If some dislike KQ6, that's fine. But if the
argument they present against KQ6 is flawed (ie. the lamp is NOT required to win the
game), then I will defend that game on its merits. And so far the defendants aren't
able to produce ONE substantial evidence that proves that the game can't be finished
without the lamp.
> Raymond
Nick Jong
Raymond Pat <rpha...@polymail.calpoly.edu> wrote:
>Matthew Murray wrote:
>> On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Raymond Phathanavirangoon wrote:
>> > What deisgn fault? You DON'T need the lamp to finish the game!!!! I have
>> > stated that MANY times before! There are 4 ways to finish the game, and
>> > if you missed something, you could always use another route to pass. So I
>> > DON'T think the "design" flaw you mention DOES exist.
>> Yes, it DOES. Whether you need the lamp or not is irrelevant.
>> You are using information obtained as the player to solve a puzzle as
>> >Alexander<. Whether or not you need the lamp to finish the game, that is
>> >poor< puzzle design.
>Great. Now he goes and offers NO proof as to why one DOES need the lamp. Since,
>the oh-so-mighty Matthew can't seem to get it, I'll tell you how. You DON'T NEED
>THE LAMP because there are two other ways to finish the game. You can either give
>the mint to the Genie at the end (instead of using the lamp on him) to conquer him,
>them follow the same procedures. Or you can disguise yourself in Beauty's costume
>and go inside.
Ah... The peril of the ellipsis... I interpreted Matthew's sentence to
mean: "Yes, it [the design flaw] DOES [exist]." If you read the very
next sentence, you see that Matthew does not care whether or not you
need the lamp. His beef is with the game designer's (IMO poor) decision
to base a puzzle on what the player knows as opposed to what the
player's character knows. (It strikes one as silly or unrealistic, and
weakens one's suspension of disbelief.)
>> > I wouldn't say either were lousy...although I think Monkey Island II was
>> > nowhere near as good as the original. That damn
>> > monocle-asd-replacement-for-eye-that-sees-the-world puzzle STILLL
>> > infuriates me. Now THAT was an example of an obscure puzzle.
>> <shakes head>
>> To think that people like >this< are playing computer games today.
>> <sigh
>With THIS inane comment. I feel sorry for you, mister, for being so deluded in
>your own grandeur of self-led importance and supposed intelligence. You have posed
>NO logic to your conclusions, have not EVEN provided satisfactory debate against my
>claims, and is definitely OBSESSED with one particular puzzle which very few other
>people have had problems with. I believe the problem is, you , and not me. No
>wonder you could solve those illogical puzzles so well.
Personally, I interpreted Matthew's comment as facetious, though it is
ambiguous enough.... Though for the record I didn't much like that
puzzle either.
thya...@sol.com.br
> >You have picked one of the MOST LOGICAL puzzles in the game to knock!
> >There is at least one cut scene between the vizier and the genie where
> >the lamp is in foreground on the desk. 'Course, if you weren't paying
> >attention.....
>>>>>>>>> Quite frankly, if Mrs. Williams had put an enormous arrow pointing
to the right lamp or got a song called "Get the one on the left" to play
during that part of the game, I'd still have to say KQ6 is a badly designed
game. Why? Because, as Lucas Arts well know, you DON'T allow the player into a
dead end. Never. How do you avoid that kind of situation? With tight, clever
designing. Period. And no one is supposed to pay attention to every single
detail in cutscenes. I wasn't paying attention? Could it be because I was
bored to death?
thya...@sol.com.br
> Sorry about that. Today i have read an interview with R.W. Phantasmagoria 2
> was also mentioned. She sayed that the game was "pretty good" and "rather
> enjoyed" playing it. I never played KQ 6, so i can't comment on that.
>>>>>>> Well, I suppose it would have been fairly amusing (and decent) if
Roberta Williams admitted Phantasmagoria 2 sucks. In fact, that thing smells
worse than a wet dog in a hot day, and I'd be very nice if i called it a game
at all.
thya...@sol.com.br
In article <34fc24d6...@news.istar.ca>,
rbo...@butterworths.ca (Rosemary Bocska) wrote:
>
> A little off-topic, but what is this "get-key-with-nail-and-newspaper"
> solution that I keep reading about? I've never played either game,
>
> Regards,
> Rosemary
Well, it works like this: you have a locked door and know the key is in the
other side's keyhole. You shove a newspaper under the door, get the key to
fall on the paper (by pushing it with, say, a piece of wire), pull the paper
back, and voilà ! It's a quite well-known trick, and I thought it appeared for
the first time in AITD2, but I've been told it was originally in Zork 2.
thya...@sol.com.br
> >Great. Now he goes and offers NO proof as to why one DOES need the lamp.
Since,
> >the oh-so-mighty Matthew can't seem to get it, I'll tell you how. You
DON'T NEED
> >THE LAMP because there are two other ways to finish the game. You can
either give
> >the mint to the Genie at the end (instead of using the lamp on him) to
conquer him,
> >them follow the same procedures. Or you can disguise yourself in Beauty's
costume
> >and go inside.
> >With THIS inane comment. I feel sorry for you, mister, for being so
deluded in
> >your own grandeur of self-led importance and supposed intelligence. You
have posed
> >NO logic to your conclusions, have not EVEN provided satisfactory debate
against my
> >claims, and is definitely OBSESSED with one particular puzzle which very
few other
> >people have had problems with. I believe the problem is, you , and not me.
No
> >wonder you could solve those illogical puzzles so well.
. You're the one who can't explain the logic on the damn lamp puzzle - and if
you can, tell me how could Alexander know about the fucking lamp if he were
not present at the stupid scene. Matthew is totally right there, and no one
can dispute that the cutscene was one extremely incompetent and lazy way to
wrap up the puzzle.
thya...@sol.com.br
If some dislike KQ6, that's fine.
But if the
> argument they present against KQ6 is flawed (ie. the lamp is NOT required to
win the
> game), then I will defend that game on its merits. And so far the
defendants aren't
> able to produce ONE substantial evidence that proves that the game can't be
finished
> without the lamp.
>
> > Raymond
>
> > My 2 cents.
> > --
> > Noman
>>>>>>>>>> Earth calling, Matthew doesn't care if you need the lamp to finish
the game... he's just trying to say that... well, I'm not repeating that, go
read his ealier posts, than try to dispute that - I'd love to see you try.
thya...@sol.com.br
In article <6dk2el$ohu$1...@o.online.no>,
"Jalik" <eivi...@online.no> wrote:
>
> Ok. She sold 7 million (!) games only of the King's Quest series. KQ6 and
> Phantasmagoria are Sierras most sold games (NOT Gabriel Knight 1 or 2). And
> if you are not good enough to play KQ, then just buy Monkey Island 3, and
> solve it in a week or two.
Oh? Than I suppose that just because Hanson sells more than Björk, they are
making better music? One should watch Baywatch just because there are
millions of stupid teens who just wanna see tits and butts? I think not.And,
by the way, I'd much rather have a week or two of good gaming than six months
of torment.
thya...@sol.com.br
> Well, the tone of your post seemed like what you just mentioned above.
> Also, you dismissed her, yet you say you haven't played all her games.
> Now, if you played ALL of them and hated all, then it's different. But
> NOT playing all her games and then saying she is talentless, I'm sorry.
> You just DON'T qualify to make that judgement. what happened if you
> played some game of hers later and liked it? Well, that defeats
> everything you've said, doesn't it?
Oh, not at all. First, I was very unimpressed by the early KQ games. And I did
fail to play a few of her games, but, when you're not the boss, you can't
expect one good going among several lousy others to sabe your job.
Matthew Murray
On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Jalik wrote:
> Ok. She sold 7 million (!) games only of the King's Quest series. KQ6 and
> Phantasmagoria are Sierras most sold games (NOT Gabriel Knight 1 or 2). And
> if you are not good enough to play KQ, then just buy Monkey Island 3, and
> solve it in a week or two.
As opposed to buying King's Quest VI and solving it in an hour or
two?
Matthew Murray
On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Carlos DaSilva wrote:
> >Although I agree that the games are medeocre at best, it is going to
> >be hard to get rid of her... since she and her husband own the
> >company.
> >
> >David
>
> Not anymore, Ken got the boot, and I doubt she'll be around after KQ8 bombs.
> They have their millions, let them go off and die somewhere.
Come now! That's pretty harsh. True and funny, but harsh
nonetheless.
<snicker>
Matthew Murray
On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Raymond Pat wrote:
> That's fine. I respect your opinion. I only have problems with people who go around
> insulting the designer of games, calling her talentless, and an imbecile. I also have
I also don't think that should be going on. Calling someone an
imbecile is ridiculous--calling Roberta Williams talentless, however, is
fair, I feel.
> problems with people who think too highly of themselves and go around criticizing
> others' tastes when he has no reason to. If some dislike KQ6, that's fine. But if the
> argument they present against KQ6 is flawed (ie. the lamp is NOT required to win the
> game), then I will defend that game on its merits. And so far the defendants aren't
> able to produce ONE substantial evidence that proves that the game can't be finished
> without the lamp.
THAT'S NOT THE ARGUMENT! How many times must we explain this? I
will type in all caps so maybe you have the slightest chance of seeing it
this time:
IT DOESN'T MATTER WHETHER OR NOT THE LAMP IS NECESSARY TO FINISH
THE GAME--THE PUZZLE IS POORLY DESIGNED BECAUSE THERE IS NO WAY FOR
ALEXANDER TO KNOW THE CORRECT LAMP. ONLY THE OMNISCIENT PLAYER CAN KNOW
THIS BECAUSE OF THE CUT SCENE. ALEXANDER >>>CANNOT<<<--HE HAS ONLY A 20%
CHANCE.
Matthew Murray
On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Carlos DaSilva wrote:
> Mark Taylor wrote in message <34fd1e3e...@news.demon.co.uk>...
> >
> >ROFL!
> >
> >You have picked one of the MOST LOGICAL puzzles in the game to knock!
> >There is at least one cut scene between the vizier and the genie where
> >the lamp is in foreground on the desk. 'Course, if you weren't paying
> >attention.....
>
> The point is that Alexander wasn't there to actually see that lamp. Only the
> omniscient player to give Alexander an Obi-Wan like suggestion.
He doesn't seem to understand that, and I think I've explained it
to him about three times now. I appreciate the support, but I just don't
think he's going to figure it out!
> >FWIW, I have enjoyed the more recent KQs even though they have flaws.
> >What game doesn't? But if you MUST denigrate the game, at least choose
> >a valid excuse!
>
> It was a valid excuse.
Yes, it was, but if he's not willing to see it, there's only so
much that intelligent, thinking people can do.
Matthew Murray
On Wed, 4 Mar 1998 thya...@sol.com.br wrote:
> > >You have picked one of the MOST LOGICAL puzzles in the game to knock!
> > >There is at least one cut scene between the vizier and the genie where
> > >the lamp is in foreground on the desk. 'Course, if you weren't paying
> > >attention.....
>
> >>>>>>>>> Quite frankly, if Mrs. Williams had put an enormous arrow pointing
> to the right lamp or got a song called "Get the one on the left" to play
> during that part of the game, I'd still have to say KQ6 is a badly designed
> game. Why? Because, as Lucas Arts well know, you DON'T allow the player into a
> dead end. Never. How do you avoid that kind of situation? With tight, clever
> designing. Period. And no one is supposed to pay attention to every single
> detail in cutscenes. I wasn't paying attention? Could it be because I was
> bored to death?
I agree, but I >do< feel that some of LucasArts' games would be
improved if there was a greater possibility of failure.
Raymond Pat
Nick Jong wrote:
> >> On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Raymond Phathanavirangoon wrote:
>
> >> > What deisgn fault? You DON'T need the lamp to finish the game!!!! I have
> >> > stated that MANY times before! There are 4 ways to finish the game, and
> >> > if you missed something, you could always use another route to pass. So I
> >> > DON'T think the "design" flaw you mention DOES exist.
>
> >> Yes, it DOES. Whether you need the lamp or not is irrelevant.
> >> You are using information obtained as the player to solve a puzzle as
> >> >Alexander<. Whether or not you need the lamp to finish the game, that is
> >> >poor< puzzle design.
>
> >Great. Now he goes and offers NO proof as to why one DOES need the lamp. Since,
> >the oh-so-mighty Matthew can't seem to get it, I'll tell you how. You DON'T NEED
> >THE LAMP because there are two other ways to finish the game. You can either give
> >the mint to the Genie at the end (instead of using the lamp on him) to conquer him,
> >them follow the same procedures. Or you can disguise yourself in Beauty's costume
> >and go inside.
>
> Ah... The peril of the ellipsis... I interpreted Matthew's sentence to
> mean: "Yes, it [the design flaw] DOES [exist]." If you read the very
> next sentence, you see that Matthew does not care whether or not you
> need the lamp. His beef is with the game designer's (IMO poor) decision
> to base a puzzle on what the player knows as opposed to what the
> player's character knows. (It strikes one as silly or unrealistic, and
> weakens one's suspension of disbelief.)
I know. And I do know the Matthew only cared about how much he hated that lamp puzzle.
But that WASN'T the original argument! The original post was about how KQ6 CAN'T be
finished without the lamp, which is absurd. That's why I said that he was off-topic.
Raymond Pat
Matthew Murray wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Mar 1998 thya...@sol.com.br wrote:
>
> > >>>>>>>>> Quite frankly, if Mrs. Williams had put an enormous arrow pointing
> > to the right lamp or got a song called "Get the one on the left" to play
> > during that part of the game, I'd still have to say KQ6 is a badly designed
> > game. Why? Because, as Lucas Arts well know, you DON'T allow the player into a
> > dead end. Never. How do you avoid that kind of situation? With tight, clever
> > designing. Period. And no one is supposed to pay attention to every single
> > detail in cutscenes. I wasn't paying attention? Could it be because I was
> > bored to death?
HOw many times do I have to repeat this? YOU DON'T NEED THE LAMP TO WIN!!!!!!!!
I am SO tired of explaining this. GIVE THE DAMN MINT TO THE GENIE!!! There IS no
DEAd-END!!!!! ARRRRGHHHH!!!!
"Whew, for a minute there, I lost myself" - Radiohead
Raymond
> I agree, but I >do< feel that some of LucasArts' games would be
> improved if there was a greater possibility of failure.
I agree also.
Raymond Pat
Matthew Murray wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Raymond Pat wrote:
>
> > That's fine. I respect your opinion. I only have problems with people who go around
> > insulting the designer of games, calling her talentless, and an imbecile. I also have
>
> I also don't think that should be going on. Calling someone an
> imbecile is ridiculous--calling Roberta Williams talentless, however, is
> fair, I feel.
Well, then why were you defending the original post when he DID call her an imbecile? Then
you came around and said that I didn't read his post? Excuse me?
> > problems with people who think too highly of themselves and go around criticizing
> > others' tastes when he has no reason to. If some dislike KQ6, that's fine. But if the
> > argument they present against KQ6 is flawed (ie. the lamp is NOT required to win the
> > game), then I will defend that game on its merits. And so far the defendants aren't
> > able to produce ONE substantial evidence that proves that the game can't be finished
> > without the lamp.
>
> THAT'S NOT THE ARGUMENT! How many times must we explain this? I
> will type in all caps so maybe you have the slightest chance of seeing it
> this time:
No, that's YOUR ARGUMENT.
The ORIGINAL topic raised by the original post was about how ONE CAN'T FINISH KQ6 WITHOUT THE
LAMP!!!!!!! YOU changed the subject, and then focused on that damn omniscience thing. I
have said MANY that if YOU find it unfair, that's your perogative. But that WASN'T even the
argument!!!! So who wasn't listening?
> IT DOESN'T MATTER WHETHER OR NOT THE LAMP IS NECESSARY TO FINISH
> THE GAME--THE PUZZLE IS POORLY DESIGNED BECAUSE THERE IS NO WAY FOR
> ALEXANDER TO KNOW THE CORRECT LAMP. ONLY THE OMNISCIENT PLAYER CAN KNOW
> THIS BECAUSE OF THE CUT SCENE. ALEXANDER >>>CANNOT<<<--HE HAS ONLY A 20%
> CHANCE.
I KNOW. You've been shoveling this on me for a while!
Raymond Pat
Matthew Murray wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Raymond Pat
Matthew Murray wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Jalik wrote:
>
> > Ok. She sold 7 million (!) games only of the King's Quest series. KQ6 and
> > Phantasmagoria are Sierras most sold games (NOT Gabriel Knight 1 or 2). And
> > if you are not good enough to play KQ, then just buy Monkey Island 3, and
> > solve it in a week or two.
>
> As opposed to buying King's Quest VI and solving it in an hour or
> two?
It took me about 4-5 to solve KQ6. But Full Throttle took me 2 hours. How sad.
Matthew Murray
On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Raymond Pat wrote:
> Matthew Murray wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 4 Mar 1998 thya...@sol.com.br wrote:
> >
> > > >>>>>>>>> Quite frankly, if Mrs. Williams had put an enormous arrow pointing
> > > to the right lamp or got a song called "Get the one on the left" to play
> > > during that part of the game, I'd still have to say KQ6 is a badly designed
> > > game. Why? Because, as Lucas Arts well know, you DON'T allow the player into a
> > > dead end. Never. How do you avoid that kind of situation? With tight, clever
> > > designing. Period. And no one is supposed to pay attention to every single
> > > detail in cutscenes. I wasn't paying attention? Could it be because I was
> > > bored to death?
>
> HOw many times do I have to repeat this? YOU DON'T NEED THE LAMP TO WIN!!!!!!!!
> I am SO tired of explaining this. GIVE THE DAMN MINT TO THE GENIE!!! There IS no
> DEAd-END!!!!! ARRRRGHHHH!!!!
Would you PLEASE explain to me where that is even SUGGESTED in the
above message?
Carlos DaSilva
Matthew Murray wrote in message ...
>On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Carlos DaSilva wrote:
>
>> >Although I agree that the games are medeocre at best, it is going to
>> >be hard to get rid of her... since she and her husband own the
>> >company.
>> >
>> >David
>>
>> Not anymore, Ken got the boot, and I doubt she'll be around after KQ8
bombs.
>> They have their millions, let them go off and die somewhere.
>
> Come now! That's pretty harsh. True and funny, but harsh
>nonetheless.
> <snicker>
Ok, maybe it was harsh. I was just getting into it. But Ken has no control
over Sierra after it was bought SUC International (oh, I mean CUC
International... Oh no, wait, now it's Cendant...)
And Roberta will probably have to keep her job based on her game design
merit, rather than the iron fist of her hubby/president/enforcer. :)
CJD
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Raymond Phathanavirangoon
On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Matthew Murray wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Carlos DaSilva wrote:
>
> He doesn't seem to understand that, and I think I've explained it
> to him about three times now. I appreciate the support, but I just don't
> think he's going to figure it out!
Oh, poor deluded soul! To be fooled in such revelry by his own
self-gratification! Such a mind gone to waste, replacd by an insufferable
void. A true tragedy.
Perhaps if you learn to stick to the subject you'll realise that I never
mentioned that stupid choosing the lamp puzzle. I was just answering a
person who said KQ6 could not be played without a lamp. Methinks a new
brain would serve you well. Then maybe you'll remember the sequence
better. I have said millions of times that it's your opinion whether the
choosing the lmap puzzle is "well-designed" or not. I could care less.
What I DO care about was the original post, saying that KQ6 has dead-ends.
> > >FWIW, I have enjoyed the more recent KQs even though they have flaws.
> > >What game doesn't? But if you MUST denigrate the game, at least choose
> > >a valid excuse!
> >
> > It was a valid excuse.
>
> Yes, it was, but if he's not willing to see it, there's only so
> much that intelligent, thinking people can do.
Oh. All you've shown me is that you don't have much of it to speak of,
otherwise you'd realise your own mistakes by now. Next time, pleae use
your gray matter to intelligently READ others post before making your own
dumb comments.
There is no redemption for people who are not capable of guiding
themselves.
Raymond
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
d651...@est.fib.upc.es
>I guess I'm also one of the minority here. I like
>the KQ series. I don't like KQ7 as much, but I
>like the others.
Don't be fooled. Many people likes KQ.
I love KQ games; they are not perfect, but they are
fun.
Some are better and some are worse, but in overall
I think it's a great game series.
Thanks Roberta!
Syed Noman Ahmad
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980304...@titan.cc.wwu.edu>,
Matthew Murray <mmu...@cc.wwu.edu> wrote:
>On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Raymond Pat wrote:
>
>> That's fine. I respect your opinion. I only have problems with people who go around
>> insulting the designer of games, calling her talentless, and an imbecile. I also have
>
> I also don't think that should be going on. Calling someone an
>imbecile is ridiculous--calling Roberta Williams talentless, however, is
>fair, I feel.
>
That's right..... The topic of this debate can be, Roberta Willams
is incompetent, talentless, lousy game designer or even a bad
hockey player, (not that, I am agreeing or rejecting any of these)
but to say that 'she is a fraud' doesn't make sense..
I never recall buying any game designed by RW, for which, on
opening the box, I found only a sticker saying 'Fooled ya...
You won't find any CDs inside this box.. Now go and stick
it on your posterior'
--
Noman