Roberta Williams is a FRAUD

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thya...@sol.com.br

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Mar 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/1/98
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How could such a bad game designer become famous?
Let's face it: the woman hasn't got one single good game in her curriculum!
First, the dreadful King's Quest game: KQ6 was the most infuriating gaming
experience ever. In that stupid game you could screw things up just by not
entering the right screen at the right time !! I remember getting very close
to the ending and not being able to finish the thing because I had not talked
to this guy in the very begining of the game. And I only discovered that
because I got a walkthrough - if it depended on William's awful design, I'd be
wondering what to do forever !! If I had gotten my hands on the woman when I
found out I'd have to restart, we'd have been spared from Phantasmagoria.
Phantasmagoria was mildly entertaining, but not a game at all. Besides being
ridiculously easy, the woman robbed all puzzles from previous games - like the
get-key-with-nail-and-newspaper... it was an original puzzle... IN ALONE IN
THE DARK 2 !!!
For God's sake, Sierra, get rid of the imbecile - the design in her games
are the ultimate proof of what you can achieve with a careful combination of
laziness and complete lack of any visible talents.
I'm sure I'm not alone here. What do you guys think?

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading

thya...@sol.com.br

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Mar 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/1/98
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Robin Adams

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Mar 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/1/98
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thya...@sol.com.br wrote:

: Phantasmagoria was mildly entertaining, but not a game at all. Besides being


: ridiculously easy, the woman robbed all puzzles from previous games - like the
: get-key-with-nail-and-newspaper... it was an original puzzle... IN ALONE IN
: THE DARK 2 !!!

Um.. no. AFAIK, the first computer game to include that puzzle was Zork 2.
It's a fairly well-known trick, anyway; I've read about it in many different
places. I think it was in an Usborne book that I first encountered it.

Larry Horsfield

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Mar 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/1/98
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In article <6db79d$gks$1...@nnrp2.dejanews.com>, thya...@sol.com.br writes

> Phantasmagoria was mildly entertaining, but not a game at all. Besides being
>ridiculously easy, the woman robbed all puzzles from previous games - like the
>get-key-with-nail-and-newspaper... it was an original puzzle... IN ALONE IN
>THE DARK 2 !!!
> For God's sake, Sierra, get rid of the imbecile - the design in her games
>are the ultimate proof of what you can achieve with a careful combination of
>laziness and complete lack of any visible talents.
> I'm sure I'm not alone here. What do you guys think?
>
Speaking as an experienced adventure writer myself (text adventures on
the Spectrum, published under the FSF Adventures banner), I must say a
few words.

There is no such thing as an "original" puzzle in any adventure game, be
it text or graphic. Any puzzle has appeared in some form or another in
virtually every adventure game ever released. The get-key-with-nail-and-
newspaper puzzle is just a variation of the classic how-to-open-a-
locked-door puzzle. There are actually very few "basic" puzzles any
adventure author can do variations on.

IMHO, the people you want to have a go at are Sierra, for publishing the
game in the first place. If it is as bad as you say it is, surely they
should`ve recognised this and not released it. As it is, all they seem
to be interested in is profit.

Larry

Edan

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Mar 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/1/98
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thya...@sol.com.br writes:
[snip]

> I'm sure I'm not alone here. What do you guys think?

Well, on the whole, I haven't liked Roberta William's games, but I did like
Colonel's Bequest and Mixed-Up Mother-Goose is nice for it's simplicity.
For the most part I dislike the KQ games though.

lorel

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Mar 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/1/98
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I'm with you! I have had similar experiences. One where I didn't throw a
shoe at some cat so later I couldn't escape because the mouse the cat was
chasing couldn't help me because it was dead (?)!! Now who would have
thought to do such inane actions????? Secondly, with Sierra games they
have limited save games so you normally end up writing over the game you
needed so you could recover. Your point is valid and well made!!

thya...@sol.com.br wrote in article <6db79d$gks$1...@nnrp2.dejanews.com>...
>
>
> <snip snip>


> I'm sure I'm not alone here. What do you guys think?
>

Kathleen A Fallon

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Mar 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/1/98
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sjoh...@sable.ox.ac.uk (Robin Adams) writes:

>thya...@sol.com.br wrote:

>: Phantasmagoria was mildly entertaining, but not a game at all. Besides being


>:ridiculously easy, the woman robbed all puzzles from previous games - like the
>: get-key-with-nail-and-newspaper... it was an original puzzle... IN ALONE IN
>: THE DARK 2 !!!

>Um.. no. AFAIK, the first computer game to include that puzzle was Zork 2.


>It's a fairly well-known trick, anyway; I've read about it in many different
>places. I think it was in an Usborne book that I first encountered it.


This also appeared (first?) in an Agatha Christie novel. I forget which one,
but it might've been "The Secret of Chimneys"

Neil Schuh

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Mar 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/1/98
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I'm with you too..... I never have liked any of the King's Quest games....


I think lately, Sierra has been loosing it's original perspective. They
aren't the computer company that made those zany adventure games and was in
touch with their fans. They're turning into a lazy money-hungry company
trying to loose it's old ways.

The Space Quest series has been put on "indefinite hold".... It'll Larry
Laffer and King Graham who will be killed along with Roger Wilco in their
fight to destroy their adventure game series....

If you would like to help save Space Quest 7 go here:

http://www.cpuweb.com/space/


-Neil Schuh

lorel wrote in message <01bd4549$1ab153c0$dfa060d1@landofoz>...

Matthew Murray

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Mar 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/1/98
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On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Neil Schuh wrote:

> I'm with you too..... I never have liked any of the King's Quest games....
>
> I think lately, Sierra has been loosing it's original perspective. They
> aren't the computer company that made those zany adventure games and was in
> touch with their fans. They're turning into a lazy money-hungry company
> trying to loose it's old ways.

It's been heading downhill for a little over seven years now, but
it's gotten really bad in the past three or so. I'm just considering
Sierra a total loss now. A shame--they used to do some good stuff. We
haven't seen any games like Hero's Quest or King's Quest IV or Leisure
Suit Larry II in a long time.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew A. Murray | The script calls for fusing and using our smarts,
| And greatness can come from the sum of our parts,
mmu...@cc.wwu.edu | From now on I'm with you--
| And with you is where I belong!
http://www.wwu.edu/~mmurray | -David Zippel, City of Angels
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


David Morris

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Mar 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/1/98
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On Sun, 01 Mar 1998 02:45:53 -0600, thya...@sol.com.br wrote:

>
> For God's sake, Sierra, get rid of the imbecile - the design in her games
>are the ultimate proof of what you can achieve with a careful combination of
>laziness and complete lack of any visible talents.

> I'm sure I'm not alone here. What do you guys think?
>
>-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
>http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading


Although I agree that the games are medeocre at best, it is going to
be hard to get rid of her... since she and her husband own the
company.

David

Brandon Fisher

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Mar 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/1/98
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David Morris wrote in message <34f9c14a...@news.earthlink.net>...


>On Sun, 01 Mar 1998 02:45:53 -0600, thya...@sol.com.br wrote:
>
>>
>> For God's sake, Sierra, get rid of the imbecile - the design in her
games
>>are the ultimate proof of what you can achieve with a careful combination
of
>>laziness and complete lack of any visible talents.
>> I'm sure I'm not alone here. What do you guys think?

I see I'm in the minority here by disagreeing with you. I have loved all
the King's Quest games (the first one was the first PC computer game I ever
played), The Colonel's Bequest, and thought Phantasmagoria was just fine -
although I agree it was not as much of a game as it was an interactive
movie. The only problem I have had with Sierra adventure games - which they
have recently begun to get away from - is the single curor interface where
you just click away. Roberta Williams' games have driven the adventure
gaming genre since the 80s. True, Lucasarts stepped in and are often
regarded as the masters of this genre now (and after Curse of Monkey Island,
they probably are), but Williams was the one who attempted to push the
technology with each new game. I used to upgrade my old computers around
the time of each new King's Quest release.

And is noone really excited about Mask of Eternity? Come on! If it comes
together as well as they are hoping it will, it will be to adventure games
what Mario 64 was to console platform games.

Skiorh

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Mar 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/1/98
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I agree, I havent played a Roberta Williams adventure I havent liked to some
degree, especially the teo Laura Bow games (sequel?), and I cant wait for
MoE!!!

Thomas Perrett or Robert Perrett

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Mar 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/1/98
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A Phony. she's a phony. I can't believe Phantsamagoria is anygood. What the point.
Roberta is a woman who create a "SHALLOW" chacaters. Some stuip Woman open up a box
and gets her Husband possed by a Demon and he Rapes her. That sounds like a HACK
writen all over it. Our feelings, she NEVER made any good games that we like. I get
this feeling SHE IS GOING TO KILL THE ADVENTURE GAME with "Her so called adventure
game" (King's Quest 8) That's the reason I never like King's Quest. I get this
feeling King's Quest 8 is going to FLOP and Sierra is going to STOP making
Adventure games. She says things are getting better. she doesn't even listen to us.
The industry is a techology driven. People says she always pushes them. HA, like
right. Only King Quest 1 and 4 were the ones that changed the industry. She says
King quest 8 is going to be the first Real time 3D a adventure game when we got got
Under a Killing Moon, The Pandora Directive, Dark Earth, Realms of the haunting,
Blade Runner, Tomb Raider 1 and 2 and Gee Whiz. (I could tell you more, but, the
other games are from other genres.) I think Sierra doesn't consider little
companies like this Important. Sierra games got bad when I bought they Myst clones.
But I never knew they better games out there besides sierra. Maybe they changed
after all there adventure game become 3D. What would happen if the industry stiop
being techology driven and people like US demand a good story. Would she be able to
adapt or not. I can't believe she las this long. What does everyone think of this?

Robert
tip9...@pacbell.net

thya...@sol.com.br

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Mar 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/1/98
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>
>
>
> And is noone really excited about Mask of Eternity? Come on! If it comes
> together as well as they are hoping it will, it will be to adventure games
> what Mario 64 was to console platform games.
>
>

Not really. It'll take some serious recommendation from friends before I
contemplate buying it. Especially if I won't be able to finish it because I
failed to get a tiny coin in a maze room I didn't even had to visit to
proceed. Or if I have to choose a lamp from five being offered by a merchant
and if I get the wrong one... well, you can always start over.

dblt...@earthlink.net

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Mar 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/1/98
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In article <6db77g$gug$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,

thya...@sol.com.br wrote:
>
>
> How could such a bad game designer become famous?
> Let's face it: the woman hasn't got one single good game in her
curriculum!
> First, the dreadful King's Quest game: KQ6 was the most infuriating gaming
> experience ever. In that stupid game you could screw things up just by not
> entering the right screen at the right time !! I remember getting very close
> to the ending and not being able to finish the thing because I had not
talked
> to this guy in the very begining of the game. And I only discovered that
> because I got a walkthrough - if it depended on William's awful design, I'd
be
> wondering what to do forever !! If I had gotten my hands on the woman when I
> found out I'd have to restart, we'd have been spared from Phantasmagoria.
> Phantasmagoria was mildly entertaining, but not a game at all. Besides
being
> ridiculously easy, the woman robbed all puzzles from previous games - like
the
> get-key-with-nail-and-newspaper... it was an original puzzle... IN ALONE IN
> THE DARK 2 !!!
> For God's sake, Sierra, get rid of the imbecile - the design in her games
> are the ultimate proof of what you can achieve with a careful combination of
> laziness and complete lack of any visible talents.
> I'm sure I'm not alone here. What do you guys think?
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
>
Hey I know why dont they have you TRY to do what she is doing. Garuntee
no one will buy the games. It was really your own fault that it happened
Like everybody says and even the game companies you talk to EVERYONE and
look at EVERYTHING you can also take everything. Learn the meaning of
fraud before you accuse someone of it!

thya...@sol.com.br

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Mar 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/1/98
to

In article <01bd4549$1ab153c0$dfa060d1@landofoz>,

"lorel" <land...@techcom.net> wrote:
>
> I'm with you! I have had similar experiences. One where I didn't throw a
> shoe at some cat so later I couldn't escape because the mouse the cat was
> chasing couldn't help me because it was dead (?)!! Now who would have
> thought to do such inane actions????? Secondly, with Sierra games they
> have limited save games so you normally end up writing over the game you
> needed so you could recover. Your point is valid and well made!!


Maybe Sierra should send William's home and give Jane Jensen some extra
budget... :) oh, and they could kiss Al Lowe goodbye too. Has anyone found a
good joke in LSL7? And the puns...

thya...@sol.com.br

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Mar 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/1/98
to


>
> Although I agree that the games are medeocre at best, it is going to
> be hard to get rid of her... since she and her husband own the
> company.
>
> David
>

Thanks for the information, David. That sure explains a lot.

Matthew Murray

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Mar 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/1/98
to

On Sun, 1 Mar 1998 thya...@sol.com.br wrote:

> Maybe Sierra should send William's home and give Jane Jensen some extra
> budget... :) oh, and they could kiss Al Lowe goodbye too. Has anyone found a
> good joke in LSL7? And the puns...

Leisure Suit Larry has been worthless since LSL3. Jane Jensen
should be given more to do--she >writes< her games, and that's a lost art
these days.

Matthew Murray

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Mar 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/1/98
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On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, David Monaghan wrote:

> On Sun, 1 Mar 1998 12:11:54 -0800, Matthew Murray <mmu...@cc.wwu.edu>
> wrote:
>
> >On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Neil Schuh wrote:
>
> > I'm just considering Sierra a total loss now. A shame--they used to do
> >some good stuff. We haven't seen any games like Hero's Quest or
> >King's Quest IV or Leisure Suit Larry II in a long time.
>

> I used to be a text adventure game devotee ( Infocom, of course ) and
> have just started playing again after getting the Zork Legacy
> Collection and ZGI. If you can place yourself in that mindset are the
> early KQ/other Sierra games worth playing ? And if so which would be
> the best to try first and how should I get it?

Of >course< the earlier Sierra games are worth playing. They were
much better in terms of gameplay and writing (you know, the IMPORTANT
things) than the crap that passes for computer games today. Start at the
beginning with the original King's Quest, and move on forward from there.

Noman

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Mar 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/1/98
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Matthew Murray wrote:
>
> Of >course< the earlier Sierra games are worth playing. They were
> much better in terms of gameplay and writing (you know, the IMPORTANT
> things) than the crap that passes for computer games today. Start at the
> beginning with the original King's Quest, and move on forward from there.
>
>

I fail to see what was good about >writing< in earlier Sierra
games.. Games like Quest for Glory 2 or Space Quest 3 or
Police Quest 2 were good because they were interesting games
with better puzzles... Writing was not their strength...

I don't think all of the Sierra adentures (and all of the Zork
games, text or graphics) combined, can match Gabriel
Knight 1, in plot, writing and story.... In gameplay,
believe it or not, GK1 gave me >more< freedom to try things
out than any text parser ever did, IMHO...

I agree that Sierra adventures have gone down... and I'll
think a 100 times before buying GK3 or QG5. I found GK2, an
extremely pointless game, and QG4 was so-so.
--
Noman, who thinks that KQ6 was the best Kings' Quest by a
BIG margin...

Matthew Murray

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Mar 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/1/98
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On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Noman wrote:

> Matthew Murray wrote:
> >
> > Of >course< the earlier Sierra games are worth playing. They were
> > much better in terms of gameplay and writing (you know, the IMPORTANT
> > things) than the crap that passes for computer games today. Start at the
> > beginning with the original King's Quest, and move on forward from there.
>
> I fail to see what was good about >writing< in earlier Sierra
> games.. Games like Quest for Glory 2 or Space Quest 3 or
> Police Quest 2 were good because they were interesting games
> with better puzzles... Writing was not their strength...

I disagree. Quest for Glory II had a >very< interesting story,
and the story of Space Quest III: The Pirates of Pestulon, while no great
work of literary art, was more than sufficient for the purpose it needed
to serve, and better than most of the crap we put up with today. Besides
which, the game was >entertaining<.

> I don't think all of the Sierra adentures (and all of the Zork
> games, text or graphics) combined, can match Gabriel
> Knight 1, in plot, writing and story.... In gameplay,

The first Gabriel Knight game had its moments, but I don't think
it was quite as great as you do--Sierra has had some other good games
storywise, and there were parts of The Sins of the Fathers that were so
formulaic and predictable that they weren't very evocative. At least not
to me...

> believe it or not, GK1 gave me >more< freedom to try things
> out than any text parser ever did, IMHO...

It depends on the games, of course...

> I agree that Sierra adventures have gone down... and I'll
> think a 100 times before buying GK3 or QG5. I found GK2, an
> extremely pointless game, and QG4 was so-so.

I rather liked The Beast Within, though it was not without its
problems. Quest for Glory IV was drop dead boring. Better than Quest for
Glory III by a country mile.

> --
> Noman, who thinks that KQ6 was the best Kings' Quest by a
> BIG margin...

Hooboy... Sorry, that statement invalidates the rest of your
message. ;)

Brian Short

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Mar 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/1/98
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I downloaded the .avi trailer for this, and I really hope it's an OLD trailer,
because if the game even looks remotely like the one in the trailer, I'll never
respect Sierra again... as if I do now. The character animation in it is
absolutely horrible, the graphics are horrible, hell, everything I saw in it was
horrible.
I just hope Sierra doesnt fuck up Half-Life or any of Papyrus' games, or next
time I'm in Seattle, I'm gonna blow up the Sierra HQ... hey, I met a Navy SEAL on
IRC, he could help me...

Brian Short
bds...@hotmail.com

David Monaghan

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Mar 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/2/98
to

On Sun, 1 Mar 1998 12:11:54 -0800, Matthew Murray <mmu...@cc.wwu.edu>
wrote:

>On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Neil Schuh wrote:

> I'm just considering Sierra a total loss now. A shame--they used to do
>some good stuff. We haven't seen any games like Hero's Quest or
>King's Quest IV or Leisure Suit Larry II in a long time.

I used to be a text adventure game devotee ( Infocom, of course ) and
have just started playing again after getting the Zork Legacy
Collection and ZGI. If you can place yourself in that mindset are the
early KQ/other Sierra games worth playing ? And if so which would be
the best to try first and how should I get it?

DaveM

Raymond Pat

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Mar 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/2/98
to


thya...@sol.com.br wrote:

> How could such a bad game designer become famous?
> Let's face it: the woman hasn't got one single good game in her curriculum!

That's YOUR opinion. The Colonel's Bequest is own of the best games ever, in fact
I daresay it's better than ANY of the Monkey Island series. I was never so
frightened and so enthralled at the little nuances in the game...from stublimg
into bodies, finding crime scenes, spying on people, finding new secret passages.
It was SO thrilling. The only gripe is that it's too hard.King's Quest III was
also only of my favorite. In fact, any KQ with Alexader as the main character is
very good. (there were only 2).

> First, the dreadful King's Quest game: KQ6 was the most infuriating gaming
> experience ever. In that stupid game you could screw things up just by not
> entering the right screen at the right time !! I remember getting very close
> to the ending and not being able to finish the thing because I had not talked
> to this guy in the very begining of the game. And I only discovered that
> because I got a walkthrough - if it depended on William's awful design, I'd be
> wondering what to do forever !! If I had gotten my hands on the woman when I

Isn't that more of your own incompetency? I finished KQ6 without any problems,
without even looking at a walkthrough. I personally really liked the game. Of
course, it isn't very original, but it played great, has a good sense of humor,
good NPC, derivative but enjoyable story, and TRULY EXCELLENT music (except for
the cheesy duet at the end). I had no problems with it, and I wouldnt fault
Roberta on THAT.

> found out I'd have to restart, we'd have been spared from Phantasmagoria.
> Phantasmagoria was mildly entertaining, but not a game at all. Besides being
> ridiculously easy, the woman robbed all puzzles from previous games - like the
> get-key-with-nail-and-newspaper... it was an original puzzle... IN ALONE IN
> THE DARK 2 !!!

> For God's sake, Sierra, get rid of the imbecile - the design in her games
> are the ultimate proof of what you can achieve with a careful combination of
> laziness and complete lack of any visible talents.

> I'm sure I'm not alone here. What do you guys think\?

This is stupid. I'm SURE you haven't playedeven HALf os Roberta Williams' games,
and here you are dissing her as if she was your whore. WTF?You described only 2
games of hers you had gripes with. Sure, Phantasmagoria was a big step down (so
was KQ7), but not everyone does something great all the time....ahem, Lord British
(UO and U8 are complete disasters). Have you played ANY of her earlier works?
Have you tried Time Zone? It came out in 1981, and it was TOUGH. Very
challenging IMHO. She really did a good job there, and I think that game is on
par with any of Infocom's best.You might not be alone, but the opinion you arrive
with is so uninformed and unresearched that it does not give weight to your
argument. Sure I think her works are getting worse, but dismissing her like this
is very insulting, to her AND to readers who enjoyed her past works.

Raymond

thya...@sol.com.br

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Mar 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/2/98
to


>
> > I don't think all of the Sierra adentures (and all of the Zork
> > games, text or graphics) combined, can match Gabriel
> > Knight 1, in plot, writing and story.... In gameplay,
>
> The first Gabriel Knight game had its moments, but I don't think
> it was quite as great as you do--Sierra has had some other good games
> storywise, and there were parts of The Sins of the Fathers that were so
> formulaic and predictable that they weren't very evocative. At least not
> to me...
>
> > believe it or not, GK1 gave me >more< freedom to try things
> > out than any text parser ever did, IMHO...
>
> It depends on the games, of course...
>
> > I agree that Sierra adventures have gone down... and I'll
> > think a 100 times before buying GK3 or QG5. I found GK2, an
> > extremely pointless game, and QG4 was so-so.
>
> I rather liked The Beast Within, though it was not without its
> problems. Quest for Glory IV was drop dead boring. Better than Quest for
> Glory III by a country mile.
>

The original Gabriel Knight is one of my favorite games ever. Greta
writing, long, tough and involving. The Beast Within had a questionable
interface that took a lot of the interactive away, but I loved it: probably
the best writing in an adult adventure ever - much unlike the childish
Phantasmagoria, a game that had a nice start but was developed badly. And I
can't wait for Gabriel Knight 3... almost as much as I'm waiting for a new
Indy game.

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----

http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading

thya...@sol.com.br

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Mar 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/2/98
to

In article <34FA7F09...@polymail.calpoly.edu>,
Raymond Pat <rpha...@polymail.calpoly.edu> wrote:

> That's YOUR opinion. The Colonel's Bequest is own of the best games ever,
in fact
> I daresay it's better than ANY of the Monkey Island series. I was never so
> frightened and so enthralled at the little nuances in the game...from
stublimg
> into bodies, finding crime scenes, spying on people, finding new secret
passages.
> It was SO thrilling. The only gripe is that it's too hard.King's Quest III
was
> also only of my favorite. In fact, any KQ with Alexader as the main
character is
> very good. (there were only 2).


>>>>>>>> Of course it's my opinion, never said it was yours!! :) I didn't play
The Colone's Bequest but was rather bored by Dagger of Amon Ra. And I'm not
complaining about the very early KQ games, even though I can't say I like
them, and the series ARE getting worse every time. And it's not pretty for her
to rest on her laurels...

> > First, the dreadful King's Quest game: KQ6 was the most infuriating
gaming
> > experience ever. In that stupid game you could screw things up just by not
> > entering the right screen at the right time !! I remember getting very
close
> > to the ending and not being able to finish the thing because I had not
talked
> > to this guy in the very begining of the game. And I only discovered that
> > because I got a walkthrough - if it depended on William's awful design,
I'd be
> > wondering what to do forever !! If I had gotten my hands on the woman when
I
>
> Isn't that more of your own incompetency? I finished KQ6 without any
problems,
> without even looking at a walkthrough. I personally really liked the game.
Of
> course, it isn't very original, but it played great, has a good sense of
humor,
> good NPC, derivative but enjoyable story, and TRULY EXCELLENT music (except
for
> the cheesy duet at the end). I had no problems with it, and I wouldnt fault
> Roberta on THAT.

>>>>> My incompetence? I think not. If I failed to choose the right lamp in a
totally random puzzle, than it means I wasn't very lucky. If you got the right
one the first time you played, than congratulations, chances of that happening
are of 20%, since there are ABSOLUTELY NO CLUES to what lamp you should be
needing by the end of the game. RW's lousy game design denotes her
incompetence, not mine. When you get stuck in a Lucas Arts or Jane Jensen
game, it's because you can't figure out what to do, not because the game let
you screw things up by, say, letting you procceed without a required item.
And I found the whole game very sub-par, starting with the childish
save-the-princess story.

For God's sake, Sierra, get rid of the imbecile - the design in her
games are the ultimate proof of what you can achieve with a careful

combination oflaziness and complete lack of any visible talents.
I'm sure I'm not alone here. What do you guys think?

> This is stupid. I'm SURE you haven't playedeven HALf os Roberta Williams'
games,
> and here you are dissing her as if she was your whore. WTF?You described
only 2
> games of hers you had gripes with. Sure, Phantasmagoria was a big step down
(so
> was KQ7), but not everyone does something great all the time....ahem, Lord
British
> (UO and U8 are complete disasters). Have you played ANY of her earlier
works?
> Have you tried Time Zone? It came out in 1981, and it was TOUGH. Very
> challenging IMHO. She really did a good job there, and I think that game is
on
> par with any of Infocom's best.You might not be alone, but the opinion you
arrive
> with is so uninformed and unresearched that it does not give weight to your
> argument. Sure I think her works are getting worse, but dismissing her like
this
> is very insulting, to her AND to readers who enjoyed her past works.
>
> Raymond


>>>>>>> I don't care if Time Zone was a good game - no, I never played it, but
it's 17 years old, and, as I said before, it's not right to overlook the
crap KQ6 is because of her early work. I'm discussing the crap she's been
doing lately. KQ6, KQ7, Phantasmagoria and the such. And it's a lot more
insulting to spend weeks trying to solve a puzzle that can't be solved because
she was too lazy to design something that won't randomly punish the guy who
spent 50 bucks on her game. And I enjoyed Ultima 8 a lot, even though it's far
from being UIV and UVII.

thya...@sol.com.br

unread,
Mar 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/2/98
to


> >
> Hey I know why dont they have you TRY to do what she is doing. Garuntee
> no one will buy the games. It was really your own fault that it happened
> Like everybody says and even the game companies you talk to EVERYONE and
> look at EVERYTHING you can also take everything. Learn the meaning of
> fraud before you accuse someone of it!
>

> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
>

>>>>>> When you charge money for your work, you have to accept consumer's
opinions, even if you don't like them or agree with them. Try everything? Like
throw-a-boot-at-a-cat-because-you-never-know-when-you-might-need-the-rat-it-co
uld-maybe-kill-to-save-you-and-if-the-rat-is-killed-you'll-be-stuck-forever-be
cause-no-one-will-tell-the-rat-would-be-the-solution-to-the-puzzle-and-you-fin
ally-pay-10-bucks-for-a-hintbook-and-find-out-you-have-to-restart. I suppose
you naturally kick cats around on your way to work... just in case.

Matthew Murray

unread,
Mar 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/2/98
to

On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Raymond Pat wrote:

> thya...@sol.com.br wrote:
>
> > How could such a bad game designer become famous?
> > Let's face it: the woman hasn't got one single good game in her curriculum!
>

> That's YOUR opinion. The Colonel's Bequest is own of the best games ever, in fact
> I daresay it's better than ANY of the Monkey Island series. I was never so
> frightened and so enthralled at the little nuances in the game...from stublimg
> into bodies, finding crime scenes, spying on people, finding new secret passages.
> It was SO thrilling. The only gripe is that it's too hard.

The Colonel's Bequest?!? Too hard? You've GOT to be kidding!

> King's Quest III was
> also only of my favorite. In fact, any KQ with Alexader as the main character is
> very good. (there were only 2).

Um... Okay... If you think King's Quest VI was very good, that's
your problem, not anyone else's...

> > First, the dreadful King's Quest game: KQ6 was the most infuriating gaming
> > experience ever. In that stupid game you could screw things up just by not
> > entering the right screen at the right time !! I remember getting very close
> > to the ending and not being able to finish the thing because I had not talked
> > to this guy in the very begining of the game. And I only discovered that
> > because I got a walkthrough - if it depended on William's awful design, I'd be
> > wondering what to do forever !! If I had gotten my hands on the woman when I
>
> Isn't that more of your own incompetency? I finished KQ6 without any problems,
> without even looking at a walkthrough.

Then you have a much less analytical mind than most people. Most
of the people I know who played the game were frustrated because most of
the puzzles didn't actually make very much sense. If you were able to
make it past the fact that logic wasn't required for too many of the
puzzles, more power to you. (The original poster is right, though--the
lamp puzzle was >very< unfair.)

> I personally really liked the game. Of
> course, it isn't very original, but it played great, has a good sense of humor,
> good NPC, derivative but enjoyable story, and TRULY EXCELLENT music (except for
> the cheesy duet at the end). I had no problems with it, and I wouldnt fault
> Roberta on THAT.

Of course not. Everyone knows Roberta hasn't really had anything
to do with the King's Quest series for years.

> > found out I'd have to restart, we'd have been spared from Phantasmagoria.
> > Phantasmagoria was mildly entertaining, but not a game at all. Besides being
> > ridiculously easy, the woman robbed all puzzles from previous games - like the
> > get-key-with-nail-and-newspaper... it was an original puzzle... IN ALONE IN
> > THE DARK 2 !!!
>

> > For God's sake, Sierra, get rid of the imbecile - the design in her games
> > are the ultimate proof of what you can achieve with a careful combination of
> > laziness and complete lack of any visible talents.

> > I'm sure I'm not alone here. What do you guys think\?


>
> This is stupid. I'm SURE you haven't playedeven HALf os Roberta Williams' games,
> and here you are dissing her as if she was your whore. WTF?You described only 2
> games of hers you had gripes with. Sure, Phantasmagoria was a big step down (so
> was KQ7), but not everyone does something great all the time....

Believe us, we >know< that! Mrs. Williams is an excellent example
of someone like that!

> ahem, Lord British
> (UO and U8 are complete disasters). Have you played ANY of her earlier works?

Yes.

> Have you tried Time Zone?

Yes.

> It came out in 1981, and it was TOUGH. Very
> challenging IMHO. She really did a good job there, and I think that game is on
> par with any of Infocom's best.

Compared to most of On-Line Systems' games of the period, there is
more to it (it's certainly a lot bigger, and at the time, it cost a lot
more--$99.95!), but harder? No, not really. Because it was bigger, there
was necessarily more to do. But the game wasn't really >harder<. The
puzzles were typical On-Line Systems fare for the time. They might have
seemed harder to you >then<, but they weren't really that much different
from most of their other games around then.
As for being on par with Infocom's best... Um, last time I
checked, Infocom never had a line in a game that read: You are in a
field. There is a time machine here. ;) Say what you will about
Infocom's games, but they were mature from the very beginning, and having
to be restricted to two word commands is something that Infocom was never
saddled with. As for Time Zone, it certainly didn't have too much of a
story, and it really wasn't that hard. Have you ever played Suspended?
Now >that< is a hard game.

> You might not be alone, but the opinion you arrive
> with is so uninformed and unresearched that it does not give weight to your
> argument.

The problem is that right now, the burden of proof is on you, and
you're not even trying! You aren't able to defend anything about the
games. That says more about you than it does about the original poster.

> Sure I think her works are getting worse, but dismissing her like this
> is very insulting, to her AND to readers who enjoyed her past works.

He's not dismissing her at all. Come on, at least try to >read<
the message you're responding to. (Although, if you're a fan of more
recent Sierra games, I can see how your reading skill might have fallen
off a little bit.)

Steve Young

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Mar 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/2/98
to

thya...@sol.com.br wrote in article <6db79d$gks$1...@nnrp2.dejanews.com>...
> How could such a bad game designer become famous?
> Let's face it: the woman hasn't got one single good game in her
curriculum!
> First, the dreadful King's Quest game: KQ6 was the most infuriating
gaming
> experience ever. In that stupid game you could screw things up just by
not
> entering the right screen at the right time !! I remember getting very
close
> to the ending and not being able to finish the thing because I had not
talked
> to this guy in the very begining of the game. And I only discovered that
> because I got a walkthrough - if it depended on William's awful design,
I'd be
> wondering what to do forever !! If I had gotten my hands on the woman
when I
> found out I'd have to restart, we'd have been spared from Phantasmagoria.
Don't be utterly ridiculous. Roberta Williams has been around since the
early days of computer games and has programmed many games in this time,
many of which were ground breaking in there own way. Sure she has made many
games that were not top notch, but then you expect that when someone is as
prolific as her.


> Phantasmagoria was mildly entertaining, but not a game at all. Besides
being
> ridiculously easy, I agree with all you say about Phantasmagoria, and
like you found it great fun, but hardly what you call a game. Yes it was
amazingly easy, but then is this not true about so many games these days,
especially ones involving real life action and actors. When games like
Gabriel Knight 2( which I really enjoyed) are described by a magazine like
CGW as the hardest adventure ever, you know something is not quite right.

> the woman robbed all puzzles from previous games - like the

get-key-with-nail-and-> newspaper... it was an original puzzle... IN ALONE


IN THE DARK 2 !!!

This is a silly statement. What game hasn't borrowed ideas and puzzles from
other games. With the finite number of things to do, it is hardly
surprising that the same puzzles crop up, particurlaly if you are a
experienced adventurer. No doubt al the puzzles from Alone in the Dark
appeared first in one Spectrum game or other. Anyway this game is hardly an
adventure, more a hybrid like those so Arcade Adventures.

> For God's sake, Sierra, get rid of the imbecile - the design in her
games
> are the ultimate proof of what you can achieve with a careful combination
of
> laziness and complete lack of any visible talents.

> I'm sure I'm not alone here. What do you guys think?
Well this imbecile as you call her is a sucessful businesswoman who with
her husband Ken, have built Sierra up into one of the biggest software
companies today. Without her there probably wouldn't be a Sierra, though
that would probably be good news to people like you.
To sum up. I have played and owned many Sierra games over the years, which
have been good, bad and indifferent, but on the whole have worked fairly
well and the software support has been good, though some would disagree.
Compare this to some of the bugridden products released such as the recent
Overseer game by Access which to all intents and purposes has been a
shambles(not my opinion), but from the many people writing to this
newsgroup writing about their difficulties with this game. I am not talking
about the game itself, which everyone playing it has described as very
good, but the setup and visual effects in the game. So next time you make a
wild statement at least get your facts right first.

steve...@eclipse.co.uk

Dolf Schuurman

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Mar 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/2/98
to


thya...@sol.com.br schreef in artikel <6db79d$gks$1...@nnrp2.dejanews.com>...


>
>
> How could such a bad game designer become famous?
> Let's face it: the woman hasn't got one single good game in her
curriculum!

Then why is everybody playing them? I think that you are right though. I
played 2 KQ gamest (4 and 5 i believe) and the two Phantasmagoria games. I
didn't like the K.Q-games, but that had more to do with the fact i din't
like the genre. But Phantasmagoria 1 and 2 are at least "not good value for
money". Phantas 1 is awfull in every way: thin characters, an even thinner
plotline, a lot of area's and very little people to talk with... The main
character is a joke. She has no past, no family, no friends... Williams
improved on that in Phantasmagoria 2, a shame that she needed a bunch of
aliens to wrap up the story.
The puzzels aren't always up to standards. Apart from the fact that their
not very original, is the way she squeezes them into the story. In
Phantasmagoria 1 and 2 the quests are not always blended into the story
like they should have. Day one in phantasmagoria 2 is awfull. All those
little stupid tasks you have to do untill you can finish at work...

But Roberta Williams is no fraud and certainly not an imbecile. Sierra is
one of the oldest softwarehouses that still exists and Roberta Williams has
played an important role in it's history. I like her philosophy about games
and her currage to create games that appeals women or children. She also
very good in recognizing talented people like Jane Jensen.
In her own games she always fails to convert good ideas into good products.
Maybe she should use her ideas to inspire others and let them create the
games.

Just my two cents,

Dolf

> First, the dreadful King's Quest game: KQ6 was the most infuriating
gaming
> experience ever. In that stupid game you could screw things up just by
not
> entering the right screen at the right time !! I remember getting very
close
> to the ending and not being able to finish the thing because I had not
talked
> to this guy in the very begining of the game. And I only discovered that
> because I got a walkthrough - if it depended on William's awful design,
I'd be
> wondering what to do forever !! If I had gotten my hands on the woman
when I
> found out I'd have to restart, we'd have been spared from Phantasmagoria.

> Phantasmagoria was mildly entertaining, but not a game at all. Besides
being

> ridiculously easy, the woman robbed all puzzles from previous games -
like the
> get-key-with-nail-and-newspaper... it was an original puzzle... IN ALONE


IN
> THE DARK 2 !!!

> For God's sake, Sierra, get rid of the imbecile - the design in her
games
> are the ultimate proof of what you can achieve with a careful combination
of
> laziness and complete lack of any visible talents.
> I'm sure I'm not alone here. What do you guys think?
>

Francis Li

unread,
Mar 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/2/98
to

Remember that "Phantasmagoria 2" was NOT written by Roberta Williams, but by
Lorelei Shannon (sp?) who co-wrote King's Quest 7 with her. Also, remember
that everybody's favorite Jane Jensen co-wrote King's Quest 6.

I think I remember reading somewhere that Roberta Williams admitted that the
horror genre was not for her- and that she was going to "pull all the stops"
to bring the King's Quest series back on track. For her sake and the sake
of the company, I hope Mask of Eternity will be a great game. However, the
one year delay worries me- their 3D engine looks horribly dated. It seems
to suffer from low polygon counts that leave the characters AND environments
looking blocky and less detailed than even the first Tomb Raider. However,
if they can get the story, puzzles, and interaction right, then it shouldn't
matter.

Francis

Kevin Grey

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Mar 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/2/98
to

Roberta Williams had nothing to do with Phantasmagoria 2.

Kevin Grey

Steve Young

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Mar 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/2/98
to


Thomas Perrett or Robert Perrett <tip9...@pacbell.net> wrote in article
<34F9FD2A...@pacbell.net>...


>I get this feeling SHE IS GOING TO KILL THE ADVENTURE GAME with "Her so
>called adventure game" (King's Quest 8) That's the reason I never like
King's Quest.

????????????????? What's that got to do with it.


> I get this
> feeling King's Quest 8 is going to FLOP and Sierra is going to STOP
making
> Adventure games.

I agree with you there. I have just seen a short preview of it in Ultimate
PC, and it looks more like a Lara Croft game than an adventure. There are
RPG and adventure elements in it as well, but it looks mostly action
orientated. It looks like my worst fears about it are coming true.



> But I never knew they better games out there besides sierra. Maybe they
changed
> after all there adventure game become 3D. What would happen if the
industry stiop
> being techology driven and people like US demand a good story. Would she
be able to
> adapt or not. I can't believe she las this long. What does everyone think
of this?
>

I think you need to improve your spelling and grammar.

Elizabeth Yang

unread,
Mar 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/2/98
to

I guess I'm also one of the minority here. I like
the KQ series. I don't like KQ7 as much, but I
like the others.

I think one thing people need to realize is: KQ
is a fairy tale. It is based on fairy tales. Many
of the puzzles are from German folktales and some
Middle East and Eastern Europe stories. For example,
in KQ6, where the lady needed to be given the white
rose, that was based on the original Beauty and the
Beast, where Beauty asked her fathr to bring her
the very first flower he saw on his way home, and
the white rose was it.

While the logic of the puzzles are not very 'down
to earth,' they are, nontheless, logical. You just
need to know your childhood stories.

Personally, I've been able to finish all KQ series
so far w/o any walkthrus.

- Liz

thya...@sol.com.br

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Mar 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/2/98
to

In article <01bd45b9$180e5260$LocalHost@default>,

> Well this imbecile as you call her is a sucessful businesswoman who with
> her husband Ken, have built Sierra up into one of the biggest software
> companies today. Without her there probably wouldn't be a Sierra, though
> that would probably be good news to people like you.
> To sum up. I have played and owned many Sierra games over the years, which
> have been good, bad and indifferent, but on the whole have worked fairly
> well and the software support has been good, though some would disagree.
> Compare this to some of the bugridden products released such as the recent
> Overseer game by Access which to all intents and purposes has been a
> shambles(not my opinion), but from the many people writing to this
> newsgroup writing about their difficulties with this game. I am not talking
> about the game itself, which everyone playing it has described as very
> good, but the setup and visual effects in the game. So next time you make a
> wild statement at least get your facts right first.


>>>>>>>> Which facts? People complaining about Overseer? I can't see why that
would make KQ6 a better game and I clearly said why I don't approve her work.
And I don't care how much money Sierra makes - if selling big meant talent,
the Spice Girls would only find jobs as janitors. I haven't played Overseer
yet, but Mrs. Williams could learn a lot about game designing from Under a
Killing Moon and Pandora Directive. You say I'd be happy if Sierra didn't
exist... wrong. I'd be happy if Sierra published better games. I play games,
for God's sake, and if they were making fantastic software, I'd gladly make
the Williams a bit richer. I didn't say what I did because I thought it was
funny. In a recent issue of the British PC Gamer, I read Sierra had "wisely
chosen" not to emphasise the fact that Mask of Eternity was a King's Quest
sequel. Why? "Best avoid prejudices, as this comes from the mind of Roberta
'Phantasmagoria' Williams." Now, if Sierra itself is afraid of gamers
connecting their new release to King's Quest, something must be wrong.

Ernest Petti

unread,
Mar 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/2/98
to

thya...@sol.com.br wrote:
>
> Let's face it: the woman hasn't got one single good game in her curriculum!
> First, the dreadful King's Quest game: KQ6 was the most infuriating gaming
> experience ever. In that stupid game you could screw things up just by not
> entering the right screen at the right time !! I remember getting very close
> to the ending and not being able to finish the thing because I had not talked
> to this guy in the very begining of the game. And I only discovered that
> because I got a walkthrough - if it depended on William's awful design, I'd be
> wondering what to do forever !! If I had gotten my hands on the woman when I
> found out I'd have to restart, we'd have been spared from Phantasmagoria.
> Phantasmagoria was mildly entertaining, but not a game at all. Besides being
> ridiculously easy, the woman robbed all puzzles from previous games - like the
> get-key-with-nail-and-newspaper... it was an original puzzle... IN ALONE IN
> THE DARK 2 !!!
> For God's sake, Sierra, get rid of the imbecile - the design in her games
> are the ultimate proof of what you can achieve with a careful combination of
> laziness and complete lack of any visible talents.
> I'm sure I'm not alone here. What do you guys think?

Well, I don't completely agree here. I agree that her latest games have been
pretty bad, including King's Quest VII and Phantasmagoria. Just as a side note,
that "get-key-with-nail-and-newspaper" puzzle was not original in Alone in the
Dark 2. It is a very old puzzle. I remember it in Zork 2, which goes way back,
and I am betting that it was a well known trick well before any computer games
were out. Anyway, that is mostly beside the point. All the games in particular
that you mentioned were rather new. I agree that she has been diminishing in
game quality. I did love the old ones, though. The first 3 King's Quests,
especially I and II were great. In general, the King's Quest series has been
one of my favorites series' of all time. I was extremely disappointed with VII
and thought VI relied a little too much on copy protection puzzles, but other
than that I have very few complaints about them. I guess outside that series I
didn't like any of the games she made. It's probably all just a matter of
taste, though. Of course, I didn't run into that same end game problem in
King's Quest VI as you did. Those puzzles are always aweful and can ruin an
otherwise good game. I did have that problem in Return to Zork, which is a game
that I loved other than the bonding plant puzzle. This kind of poor design is
not unique to Roberta Williams.

talk2ul8r

Ernie

Noman

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Mar 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/2/98
to

Matthew Murray wrote:
>
> On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Noman wrote:
> > [snip]

> > I agree that Sierra adventures have gone down... and I'll
> > think a 100 times before buying GK3 or QG5. I found GK2, an
> > extremely pointless game, and QG4 was so-so.
>
> > --
> > Noman, who thinks that KQ6 was the best Kings' Quest by a
> > BIG margin...
>
> Hooboy... Sorry, that statement invalidates the rest of your
> message. ;)
>

Yes, kind of ... heh.. But I didn't like KQ5 at all. (KQ4 was
good).. I think the post-90 Sierra games went through a
downward path.. But for some reason, I liked Kq6, SQ5
(yes, I don't know why, but I found SQ5 very entertaining)...
and PQ3 (only 'cuz of Jan Hammer's soundtrack).

And of course Gabriel Knight, is one of the best adventures,
I have ever played.
--
Noman

Noman

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Mar 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/2/98
to

Raymond Pat wrote:
>
> thya...@sol.com.br wrote:
>
> > How could such a bad game designer become famous?
> > Let's face it: the woman hasn't got one single good game in her curriculum!
>
> That's YOUR opinion. The Colonel's Bequest is own of the best games ever, in fact
> I daresay it's better than ANY of the Monkey Island series. I was never so
> frightened and so enthralled at the little nuances in the game...from stublimg
> into bodies, finding crime scenes, spying on people, finding new secret passages.
> It was SO thrilling. The only gripe is that it's too hard.

Hard ? I won't say that it was even, 'Easy'.... There were no
puzzles in that game. You were just scrambling around the
mansion, and you had to find one body after another. Kind of
like "The Last Express" but not in real time, and with no
puzzles.

Hated that game (if it was a game)

Btw, Roberta Williams and most of the game designers of that
time had a big problem with designing puzzles that could
result in you getting stuck at a dead end, *much* later in the game
from the point you made that mistake. (and in most cases
that mistake involved a pretty moronic puzzle)

It was a good thing that Ron Gilbert came up with a game
in which you could not get stuck at a dead end, even
if you tried your darn best. Sierra picked that design
mentality finally. Kings Quest 6 was its first game
with a change. Gabriel Knight 1 followed soon.
--
Noman

Matthew Murray

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Mar 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/2/98
to

On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Noman wrote:

> downward path.. But for some reason, I liked Kq6, SQ5
> (yes, I don't know why, but I found SQ5 very entertaining)...

Space Quest V was decent. >Not< as good as Space Quest III, but a
heck of a lot better than the crap that preceded and followed it.

> and PQ3 (only 'cuz of Jan Hammer's soundtrack).

A bad game, but miles better than Police Quest IV.

Raymond Pat

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Mar 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/2/98
to


Matthew Murray wrote:

> On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Raymond Pat wrote

Oh, so you were able to answer ALL the questions at the end of the game? Bravo!
Genius!! Gee, you must be a true visionary.

> The Colonel's Bequest?!? Too hard? You've GOT to be kidding!
>
>

> Um... Okay... If you think King's Quest VI was very good, that's
> your problem, not anyone else's...

And who are YOU to say that KQ6 isn't good? I liked it. Are you going to fault me on
this?

>
>
> > Isn't that more of your own incompetency? I finished KQ6 without any problems,
> > without even looking at a walkthrough.
>
> Then you have a much less analytical mind than most people. Most
> of the people I know who played the game were frustrated because most of
> the puzzles didn't actually make very much sense. If you were able to
> make it past the fact that logic wasn't required for too many of the
> puzzles, more power to you. (The original poster is right, though--the
> lamp puzzle was >very< unfair.)

I though the game was actually too easy. I finished it without needing any help. My
friends also did not have much problems with it. What was so illogical about the
puzzles? The lamp puzzle, as in when you had to pick up the right lamp? c'mon! If
anyone was even playing attention to all the scenes with Alhazred and the genie, one
should remember hhow it looked like! I didn't pay much attention to it, and I got it
right w/o problems. Or do you mean Rollo the clown? You can finish it w/o ever talking
to him, if you disguise yourself in Beauty's costume. So I don't see the problem.

> Of course not. Everyone knows Roberta hasn't really had anything
> to do with the King's Quest series for years.

OK, admittedly on eof the reasions why I liked KQ6 so much is because Jane Jensen
co-wrote it. So there. If you hated KQ6, blame half it on her too!

> > This is stupid. I'm SURE you haven't playedeven HALf os Roberta Williams' games,
> > and here you are dissing her as if she was your whore. WTF?You described only 2
> > games of hers you had gripes with. Sure, Phantasmagoria was a big step down (so
> > was KQ7), but not everyone does something great all the time....
>
> Believe us, we >know< that! Mrs. Williams is an excellent example
> of someone like that!

Yes. But to say that she is an imbecile, has no talent, etc,etc, etc is VERY
demeaning. Surely you have enjoyed at least ONe of her games? I mean, what has Roberta
done to that guy to accept all this slamming?

> > ahem, Lord British
> > (UO and U8 are complete disasters). Have you played ANY of her earlier works?
>
> Yes.
>
> > Have you tried Time Zone?
>
> Yes.
>
> > It came out in 1981, and it was TOUGH. Very
> > challenging IMHO. She really did a good job there, and I think that game is on
> > par with any of Infocom's best.
>
> Compared to most of On-Line Systems' games of the period, there is
> more to it (it's certainly a lot bigger, and at the time, it cost a lot
> more--$99.95!), but harder? No, not really. Because it was bigger, there
> was necessarily more to do. But the game wasn't really >harder<. The
> puzzles were typical On-Line Systems fare for the time. They might have
> seemed harder to you >then<, but they weren't really that much different
> from most of their other games around then.

Yes, Suspended WAS hard, and so was Bureaucracy. They were probably the hardest games
on thge Adventure market. I found Time Zone to very very hard, but not completelyy
impossible like the two aforementioned games. Never was able to finish Suspended.
Passsedd Bureacracy with hint guide. Geez. I think that when games are THAT
difficult, it becomes tedious rather than enjoyable (although I actually liked both
games a lot because of their originality).

> As for being on par with Infocom's best... Um, last time I
> checked, Infocom never had a line in a game that read: You are in a
> field. There is a time machine here. ;) Say what you will about
> Infocom's games, but they were mature from the very beginning, and having
> to be restricted to two word commands is something that Infocom was never
> saddled with. As for Time Zone, it certainly didn't have too much of a
> story, and it really wasn't that hard. Have you ever played Suspended?
> Now >that< is a hard game.

Ugh. Zork.... The white house? Gee. That sounds pretty simple too. Or how about
Hitchiker's Guide to the galaxy? Everything is pitch black. Dang. But both games were
excellent. So what Is your point? That the game has to have more than two sentences
with flowery description beyond words? That isn't great writing to me.

> > You might not be alone, but the opinion you arrive
> > with is so uninformed and unresearched that it does not give weight to your
> > argument.
>
> The problem is that right now, the burden of proof is on you, and
> you're not even trying! You aren't able to defend anything about the
> games. That says more about you than it does about the original poster.

Huh? I'm trying to defend Roberta Williams' position by sayying that she DOES have
games worth playing. I'm sure YOU have to agree with that. You'll REALLY be in the
minority if you said you have NEVER enjoyed any of her games. So what does that say
about me? I'm not the one being hypocritical, trying to protect a guy who obviously
just wants to bad-mouth a person when the defendant has done nothing to him. I find
THAT despicable. He may not like her games, but millions have played them, and enjoyed
them.

> > Sure I think her works are getting worse, but dismissing her like this
> > is very insulting, to her AND to readers who enjoyed her past works.
>
> He's not dismissing her at all. Come on, at least try to >read<
> the message you're responding to. (Although, if you're a fan of more
> recent Sierra games, I can see how your reading skill might have fallen
> off a little bit.)

I DID read it. To quote him, he said, "get rid of the imbecile - the design in her


games> > are the ultimate proof of what you can achieve with a careful combination of

> > laziness and complete lack of any visible talents. the woman hasn't got one single


good game in her curriculum!"

1. calling her an imbecile. Oh. He REALLY isn't dismissing her at all! WTF? Did you
READ his post? And you think I read it wrong. Get a head check.
2. The woman hasn't got one single good game in her curriculum
Millions have played and liked her games. Saying that her games suck implies that we
all have no taste in gaming. What an insult.

These are just TWO of the original post's quotations. Now refute me that he ISN'T
bashing her.

Raymond

Raymond Pat

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Mar 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/2/98
to Noman


Noman wrote:

> I fail to see what was good about >writing< in earlier Sierra
> games.. Games like Quest for Glory 2 or Space Quest 3 or
> Police Quest 2 were good because they were interesting games
> with better puzzles... Writing was not their strength...

In some ways, I agree. I think Sq3 was just very clever though, from the Astro
Chicken mini-game (boy, do I miss that!), the outer-space McDonald's (I forgot
what it was called...it's been a LONG time), etc. That was the best SQ. Too
bad everything after was junk.

I like the QFG series as a whole, but too many bugs, from QFG2 (fire elemental
bug), QFG3 bugs (too many to list) toQFG4 disaster (ugh) hamper the whole
series. I still think QFG 1 was the best.

> I don't think all of the Sierra adentures (and all of the Zork
> games, text or graphics) combined, can match Gabriel
> Knight 1, in plot, writing and story.... In gameplay,

> believe it or not, GK1 gave me >more< freedom to try things
> out than any text parser ever did, IMHO...

I agree. I think ANY games compared to GK1 is irrelevant. It is the
high-water mark for gaming, as a whole.
Well, I think two other really high-standard Sierra games were Gold Rush! and
The Colonel's Bequest. Truly great games ignored by time.


> I agree that Sierra adventures have gone down... and I'll
> think a 100 times before buying GK3 or QG5. I found GK2, an
> extremely pointless game, and QG4 was so-so.

Really? I very much enjoyed GK2, although I did have gripes about it. I'm
excited about QFG5 because it looks like the game is returning to its roots.
Same as GK3. I hope the recent fiascos at Sierra (ie., Lords of Magic, Red
Baron II, Sierra Pro Pilot, Football Pro '98, ad nauseum) won't affect the
quality of those games (but I somehow think it's wishful thinking). It's really
too bad that Sierra is now like a chicken without its head. It tries to be in
too many places at the same time.

> --
> Noman, who thinks that KQ6 was the best Kings' Quest by a
> BIG margin...

I agree......marginally. I also really liked KQ3.


Ed Polanco

unread,
Mar 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/2/98
to

thya...@sol.com.br wrote:

> >>>>> My incompetence? I think not. If I failed to choose the right lamp in a
> totally random puzzle, than it means I wasn't very lucky. If you got the right
> one the first time you played, than congratulations, chances of that happening
> are of 20%, since there are ABSOLUTELY NO CLUES to what lamp you should be
> needing by the end of the game. RW's lousy game design denotes her
> incompetence, not mine. When you get stuck in a Lucas Arts or Jane Jensen
> game, it's because you can't figure out what to do, not because the game let
> you screw things up by, say, letting you procceed without a required item.

I enjoyed playing King's Quest VI. It's not my favorite adventure
game, but it was entertaining. I was able to finish the game without a
walkthrough. I did use a walkthrough later, but that was just to see
the different endings.
It's been a while since I've played it, but I never had a problem with
the logic involved in solving the puzzles. If I remember correctly, the
lamp choice is not random. Before you choose a lamp, there is a
cutscene in which you see the lamp that the genie uses. So I just
picked it's duplicate. I thought it might come in handy later. I don't
think you need the lamp to win the game. I think one of the endings
accounts for this, but I could be wrong about that.
KQ V was a totally different story. I thought that game was bad. The
worst being the damn throw the pie in the face of the yeti puzzle.

> And I found the whole game very sub-par, starting with the childish
> save-the-princess story.

It's a King's Quest game. What did you expect? It's based on fairy
tales, and the save the princess story is pretty much a standard. Why
did you even buy the game if you knew before you played it that you were
not going to like the story?
--
Ed Polanco (esp...@psu.edu)

Rob Merritt

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Mar 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/3/98
to

thya...@sol.com.br wrote:
> Maybe Sierra should send William's home and give Jane Jensen some extra
>budget... :) oh, and they could kiss Al Lowe goodbye too. Has anyone found a
>good joke in LSL7? And the puns...


I really enjoyed LSL7. Its my favorite LSL game under the first one.
The puns made the game.

Rob Merritt
My Might and Magic page:http://www.jagunet.com/~robertm/homm.html
My Toy page starring Micronauts and LegoBlocks:http://www.jagunet.com/~robertm/micro.html


Mark Taylor

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Mar 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/3/98
to

thya...@sol.com.br wrote:

> My incompetence? I think not. If I failed to choose the right lamp in a
>totally random puzzle, than it means I wasn't very lucky. If you got the right
>one the first time you played, than congratulations, chances of that happening
>are of 20%, since there are ABSOLUTELY NO CLUES to what lamp you should be
>needing by the end of the game.

ROFL!

You have picked one of the MOST LOGICAL puzzles in the game to knock!
There is at least one cut scene between the vizier and the genie where
the lamp is in foreground on the desk. 'Course, if you weren't paying
attention.....

FWIW, I have enjoyed the more recent KQs even though they have flaws.
What game doesn't? But if you MUST denigrate the game, at least choose
a valid excuse!

Mark

Mark Taylor Ma...@samadhi.demon.co.uk
Gamesplayer, idler & apprentice couch-potato

Rosemary Bocska

unread,
Mar 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/3/98
to

A little off-topic, but what is this "get-key-with-nail-and-newspaper"
solution that I keep reading about? I've never played either game,
but I'm curious as to what the puzzle, and what the solution was.

Regards,
Rosemary

Matthew Murray

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Mar 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/3/98
to

On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Mark Taylor wrote:

> thya...@sol.com.br wrote:
>
> > My incompetence? I think not. If I failed to choose the right lamp in a
> >totally random puzzle, than it means I wasn't very lucky. If you got the right
> >one the first time you played, than congratulations, chances of that happening
> >are of 20%, since there are ABSOLUTELY NO CLUES to what lamp you should be
> >needing by the end of the game.
>
> ROFL!
>
> You have picked one of the MOST LOGICAL puzzles in the game to knock!
> There is at least one cut scene between the vizier and the genie where
> the lamp is in foreground on the desk. 'Course, if you weren't paying
> attention.....

Now, you see, that is one of the big problems I had with the game.
Yes, it is possible to see the lamp there and thus know which one you are
supposed to pick, but there is >no< way for ALEXANDER to know which lamp
to pick. It is only because the player sees the cut scene that they are
able to instruct Alexander which lamp is the correct one. From
Alexander's point of view, he does not >see< the cut scene, so >any< lamp
he picks is just a guess. That really >does< bug me, so it still makes
the puzzle a poor one in my opinion. Is there a way to figure out the
correct lamp? Yes. Is there a way for >Alexander< to figure out the
correct lamp? No.

> FWIW, I have enjoyed the more recent KQs even though they have flaws.
> What game doesn't? But if you MUST denigrate the game, at least choose
> a valid excuse!

I think it >is< valid, just not the way he explained it.

thya...@sol.com.br

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Mar 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/3/98
to


> >But Roberta Williams is no fraud and certainly not an imbecile. Sierra is
> >one of the oldest softwarehouses that still exists and Roberta Williams has
> >played an important role in it's history. I like her philosophy about games
> >and her currage to create games that appeals women or children. She also
> >very good in recognizing talented people like Jane Jensen.
> >In her own games she always fails to convert good ideas into good products.
> >Maybe she should use her ideas to inspire others and let them create the
> >games.
> >
> >Just my two cents,
> >
> >Dolf

Hmmm... good point. We do have a lot to thank Williams and Sierra for, but
surely not for things like Outpost or KQ6. If, in any way, she's responsible
for Jensen's work, then God bless her. But please, no more Phantasmagoria.

thya...@sol.com.br

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Mar 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/3/98
to


OK, admittedly on eof the reasions why I liked KQ6 so much is because Jane
Jensen co-wrote it. So there. If you hated KQ6, blame half it on her too!

>>>>>>>> Hmmm... ok. Jensen, lousy job you did there. Gabriel Knight, though,
heh? Nice way to make up for that.


Yes. But to say that she is an imbecile, has no talent, etc,etc, etc is
VERY demeaning. Surely you have enjoyed at least ONe of her games? I mean,
what has Roberta done to that guy to accept all this slamming?

>>>>>>>> Yup, you're half-right there. I'm sorry I used the word I did, but
that doesn't invalidate my point. What did she do? You mean, apart from making
me waste money? After Phantasmagoria, I learned to buy from stores with return
policy - and I should thank her for that, or I'd be stuck with Battle Cruiser
3000AD until today.


Huh? I'm trying to defend Roberta Williams' position by sayying that she
DOES have games worth playing. I'm sure YOU have to agree with that.


>>>>>>>>> No, I don't have to, and nobody else has to. As much as not everyone
has to agree with my original post. If you like the woman's work, fine, just
say so. I won't agree, but I'll respect that.

thya...@sol.com.br

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Mar 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/3/98
to


So what does that say about me? I'm not the one being hypocritical, trying
to protect a guy who obviously just wants to bad-mouth a person when the
defendant has done nothing to him. I find THAT despicable. He may not like
her games, but millions have played them, and enjoyed them.

>>>>>>> Bad-mouth? Ok, I've never played any of those games, I just didn't
like her face and thought I could have fun by making up things about
Phantasmagoria and KQ. And, guess what, the design faults I made up for KQ6
actually exist! Gee, what a coincidence.

Saying that her games suck implies that we all have no taste in gaming.
What an insult.

>>>>>>>> It doesn't imply anything. It clearly says I don't like her work.
Period. "We all" surely doesn't fit - I'm not alone here. And if you come out
and say that Civilzation or Le Chuck's Revenge were lousy games, I won't be
insulted at all. I'll just have to disagree.

Syed Noman Ahmad

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Mar 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/3/98
to

In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.98030...@titan.cc.wwu.edu>,

Matthew Murray <mmu...@cc.wwu.edu> wrote:
>On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Noman wrote:
>
>> downward path.. But for some reason, I liked Kq6, SQ5
>> (yes, I don't know why, but I found SQ5 very entertaining)...
>
> Space Quest V was decent. >Not< as good as Space Quest III, but a
>heck of a lot better than the crap that preceded and followed it.
>

I agree.. 100%


>> and PQ3 (only 'cuz of Jan Hammer's soundtrack).
>
> A bad game, but miles better than Police Quest IV.
>

I know it was bad, but the soundtrack was great :-) I bought
a Soundblaster V2.0 just before buying PQ3..

And Police Quest 4 had some of the most dull and uninteresting
characters I have seen. The central guy, had as much personality
as a brick wall (one that doesn't have any graffiti)
--
Noman

Steve Young

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Mar 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/3/98
to

Raymond Pat <rpha...@polymail.calpoly.edu> wrote in article
<34FA7F09...@polymail.calpoly.edu>...

> thya...@sol.com.br wrote:
>
> > How could such a bad game designer become famous?
> > Let's face it: the woman hasn't got one single good game in her
curriculum!
>
> That's YOUR opinion. The Colonel's Bequest is own of the best games
ever, in fact
> I daresay it's better than ANY of the Monkey Island series. I was never
so
> frightened and so enthralled at the little nuances in the game...from
stublimg
> into bodies, finding crime scenes, spying on people, finding new secret
passages.
> It was SO thrilling. The only gripe is that it's too hard.
This sounds good, I will have to look for this one.


> > First, the dreadful King's Quest game: KQ6 was the most infuriating
gaming
> > experience ever. In that stupid game you could screw things up just by
not
> > entering the right screen at the right time !!
> Isn't that more of your own incompetency?
> > For God's sake, Sierra, get rid of the imbecile - the design in her

games
> > are the ultimate proof of what you can achieve with a careful
combination of
> > laziness and complete lack of any visible talents.
>
> This is stupid. I'm SURE you haven't playedeven HALf os Roberta
Williams' games,
> and here you are dissing her as if she was your whore. WTF?You described
only 2
> games of hers you had gripes with. Sure, Phantasmagoria was a big step
down (so
> was KQ7), but not everyone does something great all the time....ahem,

Lord British
> (UO and U8 are complete disasters). Have you played ANY of her earlier
works?
> Have you tried Time Zone? It came out in 1981, and it was TOUGH. Very

> challenging IMHO. She really did a good job there, and I think that game
is on
> par with any of Infocom's best.You might not be alone, but the opinion

you arrive
> with is so uninformed and unresearched that it does not give weight to
your
> argument. Sure I think her works are getting worse, but dismissing her

like this
> is very insulting, to her AND to readers who enjoyed her past works.

I agree with you totally. Sierra and Roberta Williams games may have gone
downhill in recent years, but she/they have given much enjoyment over the
years and have advanced adventures in general. I have heard all about Time
Zone when it came, and it is supposed to be huge. Do you know what it was
released (was it just Apple2) on and where you might be able to get a copy.
Sorry about cutting out parts of your message.

steve...@eclipse.co.uk


thya...@sol.com.br

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Mar 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/3/98
to


>
> > And I found the whole game very sub-par, starting with the childish
> > save-the-princess story.
>
> It's a King's Quest game. What did you expect? It's based on fairy
> tales, and the save the princess story is pretty much a standard. Why
> did you even buy the game if you knew before you played it that you were
> not going to like the story?
> --
> Ed Polanco (esp...@psu.edu)
>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I didn't know I wouldn't like the story, Ed. Just because it's
based on fairy tales, it doesn't mean it must be so clichè-riddled. And you
can have a great story even when you start with a concept that isn't new or
original - ultimately, it depends on how you develop it.

athol-brose

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Mar 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/3/98
to

In article <34fc24d6...@news.istar.ca>,

Rosemary Bocska <rbo...@butterworths.ca> wrote:
>A little off-topic, but what is this "get-key-with-nail-and-newspaper"
>solution that I keep reading about? I've never played either game,
>but I'm curious as to what the puzzle, and what the solution was.

Uh, a key is in a keyhole -- on the other side of a locked door. You slide
a newspaper under the door, poke something (nail, knife, whatever) into
your side of the keyhole, and then retrieve the newspaper and you have the
key.

>>> ridiculously easy, the woman robbed all puzzles from previous games - like the
>>> get-key-with-nail-and-newspaper... it was an original puzzle... IN ALONE IN

It wasn't even an original puzzle when it appeared in Zork 2, and that
far predated "Alone in the Dark".
--
r. n. dominick -- cinn...@one.net

My news server lost all messages recently; please excuse me if I have
missed anything.

Dolf Schuurman

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Mar 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/3/98
to


Francis Li <f...@uclink4.berkeley.edu> schreef in artikel
<6df8i4$l94$1...@agate.berkeley.edu>...


> Remember that "Phantasmagoria 2" was NOT written by Roberta Williams, but
by
> Lorelei Shannon (sp?) who co-wrote King's Quest 7 with her. Also,
remember
> that everybody's favorite Jane Jensen co-wrote King's Quest 6.

Sorry about that. Today i have read an interview with R.W. Phantasmagoria 2
was also mentioned. She sayed that the game was "pretty good" and "rather
enjoyed" playing it. I never played KQ 6, so i can't comment on that.

Nick Jong

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Mar 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/3/98
to

Raymond Pat <rpha...@polymail.calpoly.edu> wrote:

>Really? I very much enjoyed GK2, although I did have gripes about it. I'm
>excited about QFG5 because it looks like the game is returning to its roots.
>Same as GK3. I hope the recent fiascos at Sierra (ie., Lords of Magic, Red
>Baron II, Sierra Pro Pilot, Football Pro '98, ad nauseum) won't affect the
>quality of those games (but I somehow think it's wishful thinking). It's really
>too bad that Sierra is now like a chicken without its head. It tries to be in
>too many places at the same time.

I'm also excited about QG5, being a faithful follower of the series
since the beginning and all. But frankly, I'm worried. Multiplayer QfG?!
What were they thinking?


--
"It's a magical world, Hobbes, 'ol buddy... Let's go exploring!"
-Calvin, "Calvin and Hobbes"

Rocker

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Mar 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/3/98
to

> For God's sake, Sierra, get rid of the imbecile -
>
They can't she and her husband own the company. To do that he would have
to divorce her and even then she still owns 1/2 the company.

Raymond Phathanavirangoon

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Mar 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/3/98
to


On Tue, 3 Mar 1998 thya...@sol.com.br wrote:

> OK, admittedly on eof the reasions why I liked KQ6 so much is because Jane
> Jensen co-wrote it. So there. If you hated KQ6, blame half it on her too!

Well, if you didn't like it, that's fine by me.

> >>>>>>>> Hmmm... ok. Jensen, lousy job you did there. Gabriel Knight, though,
> heh? Nice way to make up for that.
>
>

> Yes. But to say that she is an imbecile, has no talent, etc,etc, etc is
> VERY demeaning. Surely you have enjoyed at least ONe of her games? I mean,
> what has Roberta done to that guy to accept all this slamming?
>

> >>>>>>>> Yup, you're half-right there. I'm sorry I used the word I did, but
> that doesn't invalidate my point. What did she do? You mean, apart from making
> me waste money? After Phantasmagoria, I learned to buy from stores with return
> policy - and I should thank her for that, or I'd be stuck with Battle Cruiser
> 3000AD until today.

No, I didn't disagree with your point, but I found the TONE of it very
offending. I started getting into adventue games right after finishing
KQ1 in 1986. I was so trilled I wanted to get more KQs. She invariably
had a huge impact on my life, otherwise I wouldn't be trying to work in
the computer gaming industry now! :) Of course, I've played text games
before KQ, but the graphics blew me away.

If you didn't like Phantas, you could always return it. Sierra's had a
30-day money-back gaurantee for a long time. If you didn't use that
option, it's your loss.

>
> Huh? I'm trying to defend Roberta Williams' position by sayying that she
> DOES have games worth playing. I'm sure YOU have to agree with that.

> >>>>>>>>> No, I don't have to, and nobody else has to. As much as not everyone


> has to agree with my original post. If you like the woman's work, fine, just
> say so. I won't agree, but I'll respect that.

No, I meant Matthew Murray, not you. It's obvious you don't like ANY of
her works :). I guess everyone has different tastes. But I personally
did not like KQ7, KQ5 now Phantas either.

Raymond Phathanavirangoon

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Mar 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/3/98
to


On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Ed Polanco wrote:

>