Just finished GK3..........
Grimfarrow
.............
I'm thinking.
*spoiler*
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
What's up with that Indy Jones-type stuff at the end? That's SO un-GK.
Also, this is the worst ending out of the three.
Hmmmm.......
And I thought it was gonna be in my top 3 best graphical adventures of
all time.
But I must think.
Grimfarrow
Grimfarrow
Charybdis wrote:
> Grimfarrow <rpha...@calpoly.edu> wrote in message
> news:38693D99...@calpoly.edu...
> > .............
> > .............
> >
> > I'm thinking.
> >
> > *spoiler*
> > .
> > .
> > .
> > .
> > .
> > .
> > .
> > .
>
> >
> > What's up with that Indy Jones-type stuff at the end? That's SO un-GK.
>
> As ranted about earlier.
I wasn't following the thread, because, well, I wasn't about to read
spoilers,
since I just finished the game!
> > Also, this is the worst ending out of the three.
>
> Nah - I think GK1 had the worst ending, although I like them.
UGH!!!
I think GK1 had the BEST ending. Reason?
1. The thing about the enemy was that the enemy was a *complex*
character. Malia was never just a "bad" guy. She had depth, and
does not represent pure evil (nor does Tetelo). However, such depth
does not exist in GK3. Montreaux is bad. period. Also, we really don't
know much about him, unlike in GK1 & 2, in which we get to know the
characters quite well, and being to empathize with them. As such, GK3
boils down to the boring, simple good vs. evil battle that I so despise.
2. The ending was an emotional epiphany. It was exciting, tragic, and
yet uplifting. Plus, it wasn't cornball with GK3, with really bad FMV and
horrible polygonal characters trying to act (like the whole Jesus and Gabe's
ancestor scene-terrible!).
In terms of story, character, and ending, GK2 probably was the best.
Unfortunately, GK2 was also not much of a "game". The really dull
point & click and the endless FMV really detracted from much gameplay.
Grimfarrow
> - Richard
Grimfarrow
Amit Shah wrote:
> The last few puzzles were reminiscent of Indiana Jones, but it's not unlike
> GK1 and GK2 where timing puzzles were also included.
I didn't complain about the inclusion of action scenes. I'm complaining about
the fact that some scene are 1) way cliched 2) too Indy Jones-ish.
> GK1 had a scene which
> would remind you of Indiana Jones- remember those golems that came alive
> after you solved the puzzle of the wheel-within-wheel? You had to actually
> avoid them by clicking on various spots on the ground, zigzagging all the
> way to a door.
Exactly. You AVOID them, and then you grab the vine to avoid them
yet again. No super-human grabbing-the pendulum-and-landing perfectly
crap. I was laughing at how ridiculous it was to turn GK into an action
hero.
> In GK2, you had to time your move perfectly with the Black
> Wolf's jump so that you can catch him midair and hurl him into the furnace.
> So these puzzles are typical at the end for any GK game.
Ye, but see, that is *possible*. It can be done by mere mortals. The
Pendulum thing, on the other hand, is nigh impossible and ridiculous.
> Personally, I
> thought this had the best ending out of the three. It actually revealed
> Gabriel's schattenjager origins, and he finally understood his true destiny.
Some comments
1) The FMV was absolutely cheesy. It was grainy, and the "Acting" by the
polygons were absolutely laughable. Especially the scene with Jesus and GK's
ancestor. It may have revealed GK's origin, but it did it in the worst possible
way.
2) *WHAT* true destiny? I mean, I hope it's not the dull babble that Emilio
was ranting about. I hated the whole explanation scene with Grace and
Emilio. Sometimes, there's something called "telling the audience TOO much."
It was perfectly logical that Emilio was the Wandering Jew ( I knew that since
Day 2). However, although a bit of eplanation is good, the great length of the
tale actually detracted from the story. I did *NOT* like the fact that he also
drank the blood from the cross. To me, he's just another vampire. What's
the diferentiation between him and the vampires? Pure-heart? Surely not,
otherwise Ali wouldn't have been in league with the Blood Cult in the beginning.
It makes Emilio's credibility and likability drop way down.
3) How the hell DID Emilio get down there so fast? He says, "It's over", then
gets
there in seconds. Ridiculous.
4) Exactly WHY does Emilio get to carry the body of Christ to heaven? What
makes
HIM deserving to be the priviledged one, especially after doing something so
unlawful as drinking the blood of Christ without Jesus's permission? That
really didn't sit
well with me.
5) I thought that in one of the paintings, Christ was supposed to be reawakened
after
three days (also in the Bible). Although it is never clear that this was a
spiritual awakening
or a real resurrection, the game also never talked about it. The fact that
Emilio carried the
body of Christ sure suggested no such resurrection. I would have preferred if
the tomb
did *not* have Christ in it. Not because I was offended (it takes a LOT to
offend me),
but because it was just poorly done.
> Of course, this doesn't mean that GK3 is the last GK. Jane Jensen does have
> an idea for GK4 as long as Sierra is willing to make one. If not, she could
> always just write a GK4 novel if Sierra grants her permission.
Hmmm. I dunno if I really WANT another one after this. I'll have to think
about it.
I liked the game a lot until probably Day 3 6-9PM, when it started sinking like
Titanic.
Grimfarrow
Charybdis
Grimfarrow <rpha...@calpoly.edu> wrote in message
news:38693D99...@calpoly.edu...
> .............
> .............
>
> I'm thinking.
>
> *spoiler*
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
>
> What's up with that Indy Jones-type stuff at the end? That's SO un-GK.
As ranted about earlier.
> Also, this is the worst ending out of the three.
Nah - I think GK1 had the worst ending, although I like them.
- Richard
Amit Shah
would remind you of Indiana Jones- remember those golems that came alive
after you solved the puzzle of the wheel-within-wheel? You had to actually
avoid them by clicking on various spots on the ground, zigzagging all the
Wolf's jump so that you can catch him midair and hurl him into the furnace.
thought this had the best ending out of the three. It actually revealed
Gabriel's schattenjager origins, and he finally understood his true destiny.
an idea for GK4 as long as Sierra is willing to make one. If not, she could
always just write a GK4 novel if Sierra grants her permission.
>.............
>.............
>
>I'm thinking.
>
>*spoiler*
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>
>What's up with that Indy Jones-type stuff at the end? That's SO un-GK.
>
Amit Shah
about
>the fact that some scene are 1) way cliched 2) too Indy Jones-ish.
I liked the chessboard puzzle. The only 2 that were seemingly out of place
were the pendulum and disappearing bridge puzzles.
>Exactly. You AVOID them, and then you grab the vine to avoid them
>yet again. No super-human grabbing-the pendulum-and-landing perfectly
>crap. I was laughing at how ridiculous it was to turn GK into an action
>hero.
The pendulum thing always relied on timing. It's not that hard if you can
time it properly. And Gabriel is some kind of an action hero. Not a pure
one, but he has to do something action-oriented at the end. It's the
breaking point of the tension. At least it never becomes a Tomb Raider
game. And it's easy enough anyway, relying on one of two things: strategy
and timing. Not out of place in an adventure if you ask me.
Ye, but see, that is *possible*. It can be done by mere mortals. The
>Pendulum thing, on the other hand, is nigh impossible and ridiculous.
>
>Some comments
>1) The FMV was absolutely cheesy. It was grainy, and the "Acting" by the
>polygons were absolutely laughable. Especially the scene with Jesus and
GK's
>ancestor. It may have revealed GK's origin, but it did it in the worst
possible
The FMV was in low resolution. Probably because they needed to conserve
space. They may release a DVD version with high quality FMV though I
wouldn't count on it. As for the acting, I didn't find it too bad. Some of
the scenes in GK2 were really awkward at best, but you're able to look past
that. It just sounds to me like you're unable to see past 3d models and
their expressions. Maybe you just didn't like the actual scene, but I don't
think it would have been more appealing even if it was live-action.
>way.
>2) *WHAT* true destiny? I mean, I hope it's not the dull babble that
Emilio
>was ranting about. I hated the whole explanation scene with Grace and
>Emilio. Sometimes, there's something called "telling the audience TOO
much."
>It was perfectly logical that Emilio was the Wandering Jew ( I knew that
since
>Day 2). However, although a bit of eplanation is good, the great length of
the
>tale actually detracted from the story. I did *NOT* like the fact that he
also
>drank the blood from the cross. To me, he's just another vampire. What's
>the diferentiation between him and the vampires? Pure-heart? Surely not,
>otherwise Ali wouldn't have been in league with the Blood Cult in the
beginning.
And sometimes there's such a thing as telling the audience too little. I
think it was adequately explained. I don't see how you could have suspected
Emilio was the Wandering Jew. There wasn't much indication that the
Wandering Jew was involved in the case at all. As for Emilio drinking
blood, I think you're having a black-and-white view of what's good and
what's bad. Emilio made his mistakes like any ordinary human. He loved
Jesus, but the vampires never really felt that way. All they were after was
the power that Jesus had. Even though Emilio drank Jesus's blood, he paid
for it the rest of his life. He gained immortality but he swore he would
never use the power he had no matter what. Even if he didn't drink Jesus's
blood, would he have sought out the bloodline descendants to steal their
blood? I don't think so. But the vampires would, because they ARE
vampires. Emilio isn't a vampire. Nobody reveres him, but the blood in him
is revered since it's the blood of Jesus.
>It makes Emilio's credibility and likability drop way down.
>3) How the hell DID Emilio get down there so fast? He says, "It's over",
then
>gets
>there in seconds. Ridiculous.
Just like in any movie, time elapses between scenes. Sometimes without any
indication that it has, leaving the audience to assume that time's elapsed.
There definitely was enough time for Grace to pack her bags, write a note,
and leave town.
>4) Exactly WHY does Emilio get to carry the body of Christ to heaven?
What
>makes
>HIM deserving to be the priviledged one, especially after doing something
so
>unlawful as drinking the blood of Christ without Jesus's permission? That
>really didn't sit
>well with me.
I don't think he carried Christ's body to heaven. I don't know where you
get this notion, but I'm pretty sure Emilio took Jesus's body somewhere else
because the temple's location has been discovered. As for what makes him so
special, I guess it's Jesus's blood that he's carrying. That's what makes
him so special. The Brotherhood does not revere Emilio. They never did.
But they have to recognize that Jesus's blood is in Emilio, so they have to
revere that.
>5) I thought that in one of the paintings, Christ was supposed to be
reawakened
>after
>three days (also in the Bible). Although it is never clear that this was a
>spiritual awakening
>or a real resurrection, the game also never talked about it. The fact that
>Emilio carried the
>body of Christ sure suggested no such resurrection. I would have
preferred if
>the tomb
>did *not* have Christ in it. Not because I was offended (it takes a LOT
to
>offend me),
>but because it was just poorly done.
I'm not Christian so I wouldn't know about this. Are you talking about one
of the paintings in the church?
>Hmmm. I dunno if I really WANT another one after this. I'll have to think
>about it.
>I liked the game a lot until probably Day 3 6-9PM, when it started sinking
like
>Titanic.
>
That disappointed huh? If you type "GK4" in Sidney, you get a clue as to
what the next game is going to be about.
>Grimfarrow
>
Marta Interiano
> I didn't complain about the inclusion of action scenes. I'm complaining about
> the fact that some scene are 1) way cliched 2) too Indy Jones-ish.
>
This is the only part in the game with which I was not very happy.
> Exactly. You AVOID them, and then you grab the vine to avoid them
> yet again. No super-human grabbing-the pendulum-and-landing perfectly
> crap. I was laughing at how ridiculous it was to turn GK into an action
> hero.
I don't think it turned him into an action figure since 9 out of 10 times,
GK either got sliced in half or plummeted to the ground. Anyway, any
temple containing something ( or someone ) of great value would have
some fiendish traps.. I just wish that they could have been more
cerebral.
> Ye, but see, that is *possible*. It can be done by mere mortals. The
> Pendulum thing, on the other hand, is nigh impossible and ridiculous.
Uhm, the pushing of Von Glower into the furnace was NOT done
by a mere mortal. It was done by GK as as a werewolf. Pit a human
without a wapon against a regular wolf and he might have a chance of
killing, but not without himself receiving mortal wounds. Pit a human
against a werewolf, and he becomes dinner.
> Some comments
> 1) The FMV was absolutely cheesy. It was grainy, and the "Acting" by the
> polygons were absolutely laughable. Especially the scene with Jesus and GK's
> ancestor. It may have revealed GK's origin, but it did it in the worst possible
>
Well, that's your opinion. I didn't think that they were worthy of an Oscar,
but they were okay.
> 2) *WHAT* true destiny?
Didn't you pay attention?
> I mean, I hope it's not the dull babble that Emilio
> was ranting about. I hated the whole explanation scene with Grace and
> Emilio. Sometimes, there's something called "telling the audience TOO much."
> It was perfectly logical that Emilio was the Wandering Jew ( I knew that since
> Day 2).
Well after a couple failed attempts at recovering Emilio's finger
prints, I was under the impression that he was either a vampire,
or something not human.
> However, although a bit of eplanation is good, the great length of the
> tale actually detracted from the story. I did *NOT* like the fact that he also
> drank the blood from the cross. To me, he's just another vampire. What's
> the diferentiation between him and the vampires? Pure-heart? Surely not,
> otherwise Ali wouldn't have been in league with the Blood Cult in the beginning.
>
If you had spent your entire life labouring for a goal greater than
yourself, and then at the last hour, that goal falls apart, desperation
will compel you act in a very rash manner. Emilio probably drank
the blood of Christ because he could not bear to see all that hard work
and planning to die on that cross, but also maybe because he wanted
to prevent less than vituous parties from attaining it. Though Emilio was
at that moment weak and rash to have stolen that precious liquid of
life and power, he later gained the wisdom to understand that he
could never profit from it nor could he ever interfere in the affairs of
men. Never would he have an active role in the world, yea, a
passive one. This to me made him a wonderfully complex character.
Emilio was NOT a vampire. He may have stolen the blood out
of desperation, but he never again did he covet or have the
yearning to drink. Those of the Blood Cult on the other hand
willfully and knowingly stole of the sacred liquid, and thus
were condemned with the hunger for it. After centuries, they
changed physically, and in turn *became* vampires. Emilio
never claimed to be of pure heart, but he was of pure
mind later on. As for why he was in league with the
Blood cult? Well, why do most impressionable youngsters
go with the wrong crowd?
> 3) How the hell DID Emilio get down there so fast? He says, "It's over", then
> gets there in seconds. Ridiculous.
I assumed that time had elapsed.
>
> 4) Exactly WHY does Emilio get to carry the body of Christ to heaven? What
> makes HIM deserving to be the priviledged one, especially after doing something so
>
> unlawful as drinking the blood of Christ without Jesus's permission? That
> really didn't sit well with me.
Well, it is never established if it is heaven. Remmeber, Emilio
said that Jesus was the open portal between man and the
infinite, so maybe he took Him there. As for Emilio was deserving?
Though he may have commited sin by stealing the blood, he
later repented and was wise enough to never use the power,
as it was not his to begin with. Regadless, he was now damned
for eternity, to never die.. oh sure, at first you might think it's
swell, but just imagine it. Seeing every single memeber of your
family and friends grow older and die..Wandering the earth,
and seeing how humanity commits the same mistakes over
and over again. It would be truly a disheartening thing.
Now Emilio had a choice: either spend the rest of eternity
blaiming himself and living in utter pesimmism, or accept
his fate and search for a way to redeem himself in the
eyes of God. He decided to serve the Greater Good, though
not actively. He knew that someday, the cosmic events
which occured at the time of his transgressions would
return to facilitate the creation of a new Lord, and that
He would come to take the throne which Emilio held
for Him. He knew that at that time, independent forces,
sent into motion centuries before, would act to come to
the aid of his cause.
> 5) I thought that in one of the paintings, Christ was supposed to be reawakened
> after three days (also in the Bible). Although it is never clear that this was a
> spiritual awakening or a real resurrection, the game also never talked about it.
> The fact that
> Emilio carried the
> body of Christ sure suggested no such resurrection. I would have preferred if
> the tomb
> did *not* have Christ in it. Not because I was offended (it takes a LOT to
> offend me),
> but because it was just poorly done.
You're talking about the Resurrection. Well, according to the
game's story, this never occurred, or it occurred in a way which
we do not understand. Ever wondered how Sauniere got to
be so rich? Well, he discovered the temple and the tomb
and probably blackmailed the Church. Imagine if you will
if it were suddenly revealed that Christ never resurrected nor
ascended into heaven? It would completely undermine the
power of the Church. Now here is my best guess as to what
occurred:
1.) After the death of Christ, His body was removed from the cross,
placed in a hidden tomb until such a time when the portal
between the earth and the Heavens would reopen and the
dead yet living body of Jesus would be taken there.
2.) Mary Magdalen, either pregnant or with child, travelled
to the region now known as France and lived there for the
rest of her life. The bloodcult soon there after, followed
searching for the heirs of Jesus.
3.) More than one thousand years later, the descendants
of Christ formed at plan to locate and recuperate His
body, thus the Crusades were born. The Church, wishing
that it's followers continue believing in the Gospel as it
is written in the Bible probably agreed to the Crusader's
plans only if the body was given to it [ the Church ].
4.) Once the body was located, the Crusaders opted
to keep the body for themselves, and brought with them
all the riches of the region they were looting.
5.) They built the Temple beneath valley of Renne de le
Chateau and deposited the Body there. The Church
obviously not happy with this, maybe gave them an
ultimatum. Upon not giving in, the Church labeled them
as heretics and began to torture and kill them. The
secret location of the tomb went with them.
6.) Somewhere around this time, the Freemasons
divided and the splinter group became the
Priory. Both sides each claiming to have rightful heirs to
the throne. However, since the knowledge of where
the temple was was lost with their purged ancestors,
neither knew where it was.
7.) During this time, the Order had been desperate to
recuperate the Body which was stolen from their
safekeeping. For the next thousand years, they and
the Church have also been desperate to find the
temple.
8.) About 700 years later, Sauiere discovered the
lost temple and its contents. He blackmailed the
Church. This begs the question, why not just kill
Sauniere? Well, it's probable that he had left clues
about the whereabouts of the temple just in case
he died abruptly i.e. Le Serpent Rouge, St.
Magdalen's Church.
9.) 100 years later, the the cosmic events returned
and the Stewarts brought forth a true heir and the
events of the game begin.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
Tesiae
toon...@my-deja.com
>
> I think GK1 had the BEST ending. Reason?
> 1. The thing about the enemy was that the enemy was a *complex*
> character. Malia was never just a "bad" guy. She had depth, and
> does not represent pure evil (nor does Tetelo). However, such depth
> does not exist in GK3. Montreaux is bad. period. Also, we really
don't
> know much about him, unlike in GK1 & 2, in which we get to know the
> characters quite well, and being to empathize with them. As such, GK3
> boils down to the boring, simple good vs. evil battle that I so
despise.
> 2. The ending was an emotional epiphany. It was exciting, tragic,
and
> yet uplifting. Plus, it wasn't cornball with GK3, with really bad
FMV and
> horrible polygonal characters trying to act (like the whole Jesus and
Gabe's
> ancestor scene-terrible!).
>
> In terms of story, character, and ending, GK2 probably was the best.
> Unfortunately, GK2 was also not much of a "game". The really dull
> point & click and the endless FMV really detracted from much gameplay.
I think GK3 had the best ending out all the Gabriel Knight's. I really
didn't like how Grace and Gabriel talked on the bridge about their life
in the end of GK1 and GK2. Those game endings weren't all that
interesting. Malia and Von Glower were very complex villians. I wonder
if Von Glower really was evil. He didn't do anything bad. It was his
father that was evil. It's a role reversial of Sins of the father. His
father had the sin that he couldn't redeemed. From the Lycanthrope
books, he isn't damned unless he tastes of Human blood.
Malia was a complex villian too. She wasn't a villian in the real
sense. She's more of an Anti-villian and Gabriel an Anti-hero. GK2 was
a really good game storywise. GK3 had a very shallow villian and the
characters didn't care about anyone. They were very shallow. I think
the voice acting in GK3 was really bad. I compared the voice acting of
The Last Express. Those actors in TLE did a much better job than the
famous voice actors of GK3. It proves that you don't have to be famous
to do a good job. GK2 really suffered gameplay wise. Their was no game.
It was just an interactive movie. GK3 is better in that department.
It's saddens me that GK3 plot isn't as good as the GK1 and GK2.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
PhantomWombat
<snip>
>
> 9.) 100 years later, the the cosmic events returned
> and the Stewarts brought forth a true heir and the
> events of the game begin.
I'm not so sure that the Stewart child was the true heir. Emilio does tell Grace that
she MUST take extra-special care of herself, just after she and Gabriel had sex while
the Window of Orion was still open...
toon...@my-deja.com
> Ye, but see, that is *possible*. It can be done by mere mortals. The
> Pendulum thing, on the other hand, is nigh impossible and ridiculous.
That puzzle was horrible. I wanted to scream at Jane for putting that
puzzle in there. I finally did do it. I save the game right away.
> Some comments
> 1) The FMV was absolutely cheesy. It was grainy, and the "Acting"
by the
> polygons were absolutely laughable. Especially the scene with Jesus
and GK's
> ancestor. It may have revealed GK's origin, but it did it in the
worst possible
The FMV was very grainy. I didn't mind the acting per se. Gabriel
Knight isn't related to Jesus. Jesus just gave the first Schattenjager
the power to fight evil. This one reason why I prefer The Last Express
over Gabriel 1, 2, and 3. TLE is more beliveable than any GK game.
> way.
> 2) *WHAT* true destiny? I mean, I hope it's not the dull babble that
Emilio
> was ranting about. I hated the whole explanation scene with Grace and
> Emilio. Sometimes, there's something called "telling the audience
TOO much."
> It was perfectly logical that Emilio was the Wandering Jew ( I knew
that since
> Day 2). However, although a bit of eplanation is good, the great
length of the
> tale actually detracted from the story. I did *NOT* like the fact
that he also
> drank the blood from the cross. To me, he's just another vampire.
What's
> the diferentiation between him and the vampires? Pure-heart? Surely
not,
> otherwise Ali wouldn't have been in league with the Blood Cult in the
beginning.
That's true, that would ruin the game.
> It makes Emilio's credibility and likability drop way down.
> 3) How the hell DID Emilio get down there so fast? He says, "It's
over", then
> gets
> there in seconds. Ridiculous.
> 4) Exactly WHY does Emilio get to carry the body of Christ to
heaven? What
> makes
> HIM deserving to be the priviledged one, especially after doing
something so
> unlawful as drinking the blood of Christ without Jesus's permission?
That
> really didn't sit
> well with me.
> 5) I thought that in one of the paintings, Christ was supposed to be
reawakened
> after
> three days (also in the Bible). Although it is never clear that this
was a
> spiritual awakening
> or a real resurrection, the game also never talked about it. The
fact that
> Emilio carried the
> body of Christ sure suggested no such resurrection. I would have
preferred if
> the tomb
> did *not* have Christ in it. Not because I was offended (it takes a
LOT to
> offend me),
> but because it was just poorly done.
I was hoping that Attilla the Hun would be buried in that tomb or the
Ark of the Covenent.
> > Of course, this doesn't mean that GK3 is the last GK. Jane Jensen
does have
> > an idea for GK4 as long as Sierra is willing to make one. If not,
she could
> > always just write a GK4 novel if Sierra grants her permission.
>
> Hmmm. I dunno if I really WANT another one after this. I'll have to
think
> about it.
> I liked the game a lot until probably Day 3 6-9PM, when it started
sinking like
> Titanic.
I think GK3 has really put a black mark on the series. I think it would
be interesting to see a GK4. I rather not see another Gabriel Knight.
Gabriel goes find Grace in Tibet. I really wish GK3 didn't take place
in Europe. I rather have Turkey, Iran or something other Mystery that
Gabriel and Grace would solve.
toon...@my-deja.com
GK3. You too can never agree on anything. You do now with Gabriel
Knight 3.
Charybdis
Including the robot bird? But in any case, they aren't really comparable
storywise.
> I think GK3 has really put a black mark on the series. I think it would
> be interesting to see a GK4. I rather not see another Gabriel Knight.
> Gabriel goes find Grace in Tibet. I really wish GK3 didn't take place
> in Europe. I rather have Turkey, Iran or something other Mystery that
> Gabriel and Grace would solve.
I don't care where it is - but I want to read it as a novel, not play it as
a game. I didn't think I'd need to say that, but unfortunately it's the
case.
- Richard
Charybdis
> if Von Glower really was evil. He didn't do anything bad. It was his
> father that was evil. It's a role reversial of Sins of the father. His
> father had the sin that he couldn't redeemed. From the Lycanthrope
> books, he isn't damned unless he tastes of Human blood.
Er....
Von Glower drove Ludwig to madness
He turned von Zell into a werewolf and originally intended to take the
others too
He killed as a wolf
He planned to turn Gabriel
However, he wasn't really a villain in the true sense either - I liked the
guy.
- Richard
Grimfarrow
Marta Interiano wrote:
> >
> > I didn't complain about the inclusion of action scenes. I'm complaining about
> > the fact that some scene are 1) way cliched 2) too Indy Jones-ish.
> >
>
> This is the only part in the game with which I was not very happy.
Yup.
> > Exactly. You AVOID them, and then you grab the vine to avoid them
> > yet again. No super-human grabbing-the pendulum-and-landing perfectly
> > crap. I was laughing at how ridiculous it was to turn GK into an action
> > hero.
>
> I don't think it turned him into an action figure since 9 out of 10 times,
> GK either got sliced in half or plummeted to the ground. Anyway, any
> temple containing something ( or someone ) of great value would have
> some fiendish traps.. I just wish that they could have been more
> cerebral.
Hello, considering that 9 out of 10 times he gets sliced, doesn't this mean
that it's nigh impossible for him to do it???? "Action heroes" do the same thing-
leap across buildings, kill a hundred people, etc. Completely ludicrous.
Some is the pendulum thing in GK3.
> > Ye, but see, that is *possible*. It can be done by mere mortals. The
> > Pendulum thing, on the other hand, is nigh impossible and ridiculous.
>
> Uhm, the pushing of Von Glower into the furnace was NOT done
> by a mere mortal. It was done by GK as as a werewolf. Pit a human
> without a wapon against a regular wolf and he might have a chance of
> killing, but not without himself receiving mortal wounds. Pit a human
> against a werewolf, and he becomes dinner.
Well, duh. You mistook what I mean. I'm talking about the plausibility
of the plotline. Everything in GK1 could have happened (within the
boundaries). It didn't require something supernatural out of GK.
GK2 as well. Sure, he was a werewolf, but everything seemed *logical*
He didn't climb a 100 story building or crushed a building. He merely
shoved Von Glower in. That is plausible (given the scenario). But GK3,
as a human, can NOT do all the things with the pendulum.
> > Some comments
> > 1) The FMV was absolutely cheesy. It was grainy, and the "Acting" by the
> > polygons were absolutely laughable. Especially the scene with Jesus and GK's
> > ancestor. It may have revealed GK's origin, but it did it in the worst possible
>
> Well, that's your opinion. I didn't think that they were worthy of an Oscar,
> but they were okay.
Who said that it had to be worthy of an Oscar? Not a single acting job in
ANY game is Oscar worthy! It had to be genuine. If I laugh at the scene
(which I did with the whole Jesus/GK's ancestor scene), that means I
feel it was ridiculous.
Problem is, I have NO clue why they didn't just use the G-Engine instead
of FMV. Hell, all the scenes in the FMV WERE made with the G-Engine!
It would have looked about 100% better.
> > 2) *WHAT* true destiny?
>
> Didn't you pay attention?
Of course I did. But his destiny is over. There is no more. The three
trials are over. Yet GK still didn't have that kind of *change* like in
GK1 & GK2 as a person. At least, the change didn't happen at the end.
I wish he would have been more affected, especially since he just saw Jesus's
body.
> > I mean, I hope it's not the dull babble that Emilio
> > was ranting about. I hated the whole explanation scene with Grace and
> > Emilio. Sometimes, there's something called "telling the audience TOO much."
> > It was perfectly logical that Emilio was the Wandering Jew ( I knew that since
> > Day 2).
>
> Well after a couple failed attempts at recovering Emilio's finger
> prints, I was under the impression that he was either a vampire,
> or something not human.
Exactly. And remember the book in Montreaux's castle? The one that said
Gods Among Us? One of the entry was the Wandering Jew. And then,
the next page had a timeline of a person being sighted for over2000 years.
That's when I got a clue about why Emilio may actually be one of those.
The reason why I didn't suspect him of being a vampire is because
1) Grace said he seemed harmless several times
2) He got ill at the vineyard. That means something wasn't agreeing
with him. Obviously, since we knew by day 2 that the castle was
kinda evil, Emilio must be the opposite to feel ill (ie, he's good).
Yoiu said he later gained wisdom that he could never profit from it.
So why didn't the rest of the vampires also have such thoughts?
They both acted he same way, IMO- rash, yearning to save
the blood for either themselves or for the Brotherhood (which is
neutral). Point is, there is a very thin line between good and evil.
Emilio made it seem like there is a whole gap between them, even
when they did the same things.
> > 3) How the hell DID Emilio get down there so fast? He says, "It's over", then
> > gets there in seconds. Ridiculous.
>
> I assumed that time had elapsed.
Ummmm......
Considering that it took GK
1) crossing the chessboard
2) grab the pendulum
3) chose the crap (stone, glove, etc.)
4) over the bridge
It took Emilio a short time to get there?
Say, it takes thirty minutes to get across.
After GK defeats Montreaux, we see clearly what GK &
friends did afterwards, right? That scene did NOT take
30 minutes or more.
It just wasn't right.
And how the hell did the vampires get there? Flew?
Then how the hell did they choose the objects (glove,etc)?
> > 4) Exactly WHY does Emilio get to carry the body of Christ to heaven? What
> > makes HIM deserving to be the priviledged one, especially after doing something so
> >
> > unlawful as drinking the blood of Christ without Jesus's permission? That
> > really didn't sit well with me.
>
> Well, it is never established if it is heaven. Remmeber, Emilio
> said that Jesus was the open portal between man and the
> infinite, so maybe he took Him there. As for Emilio was deserving?
> Though he may have commited sin by stealing the blood, he
> later repented and was wise enough to never use the power,
> as it was not his to begin with. Regadless, he was now damned
> for eternity, to never die.. oh sure, at first you might think it's
> swell, but just imagine it. Seeing every single memeber of your
> family and friends grow older and die..Wandering the earth,
> and seeing how humanity commits the same mistakes over
> and over again. It would be truly a disheartening thing.
I never said that it was a blessing to be immortal (I wouldn't want it)
I just disagreed that he should have been the guy who carried the
body. There are many who are purer than he is.
> Now Emilio had a choice: either spend the rest of eternity
> blaiming himself and living in utter pesimmism, or accept
> his fate and search for a way to redeem himself in the
> eyes of God. He decided to serve the Greater Good, though
> not actively. He knew that someday, the cosmic events
> which occured at the time of his transgressions would
> return to facilitate the creation of a new Lord, and that
> He would come to take the throne which Emilio held
> for Him. He knew that at that time, independent forces,
> sent into motion centuries before, would act to come to
> the aid of his cause.
Then why not see all of this through? Be the new messiah's
guardian and ask directly for *his* forgiveness?
> > 5) I thought that in one of the paintings, Christ was supposed to be reawakened
>
> > after three days (also in the Bible). Although it is never clear that this was a
> > spiritual awakening or a real resurrection, the game also never talked about it.
> > The fact that
> > Emilio carried the
> > body of Christ sure suggested no such resurrection. I would have preferred if
> > the tomb
> > did *not* have Christ in it. Not because I was offended (it takes a LOT to
> > offend me),
> > but because it was just poorly done.
>
> You're talking about the Resurrection. Well, according to the
> game's story, this never occurred, or it occurred in a way which
> we do not understand. Ever wondered how Sauniere got to
> be so rich? Well, he discovered the temple and the tomb
> and probably blackmailed the Church. Imagine if you will
> if it were suddenly revealed that Christ never resurrected nor
> ascended into heaven? It would completely undermine the
> power of the Church. Now here is my best guess as to what
> occurred:
>
> 1.) After the death of Christ, His body was removed from the cross,
> placed in a hidden tomb until such a time when the portal
> between the earth and the Heavens would reopen and the
> dead yet living body of Jesus would be taken there.
Okay.
> 2.) Mary Magdalen, either pregnant or with child, travelled
> to the region now known as France and lived there for the
> rest of her life. The bloodcult soon there after, followed
> searching for the heirs of Jesus.
okay.
But we don't know if he IS the true heir or not. That's
the catch. In fact, I don't think he is.
Grimfarrow
Grimfarrow
Amit Shah wrote:
> >I didn't complain about the inclusion of action scenes. I'm complaining
> about
> >the fact that some scene are 1) way cliched 2) too Indy Jones-ish.
>
> I liked the chessboard puzzle. The only 2 that were seemingly out of place
> were the pendulum and disappearing bridge puzzles.
Agreed.
>Exactly. You AVOID them, and then you grab the vine to avoid them
> >yet again. No super-human grabbing-the pendulum-and-landing perfectly
> >crap. I was laughing at how ridiculous it was to turn GK into an action
> >hero.
>
> The pendulum thing always relied on timing. It's not that hard if you can
> time it properly. And Gabriel is some kind of an action hero. Not a pure
> one, but he has to do something action-oriented at the end. It's the
> breaking point of the tension. At least it never becomes a Tomb Raider
> game. And it's easy enough anyway, relying on one of two things: strategy
> and timing. Not out of place in an adventure if you ask me.
Please. Nothing ever said that GK NEEDs to be an action hero.
That's Jane Jensen's decision. It was a poor decision, IMO. In every GK,
he has used his wits to help him, not superhuman strength. I didn't say it was
out of place in an adventure game. I said it was out of place in GK game!
If this was Twinsen's Odyssey or Manhunter : NEw York, then I'd say ok.
But it isn't.
Mor epuzzles liek the chessboard would have been much better.
> Ye, but see, that is *possible*. It can be done by mere mortals. The
> >Pendulum thing, on the other hand, is nigh impossible and ridiculous.
> >
> >Some comments
> >1) The FMV was absolutely cheesy. It was grainy, and the "Acting" by the
> >polygons were absolutely laughable. Especially the scene with Jesus and
> GK's
> >ancestor. It may have revealed GK's origin, but it did it in the worst
> possible
>
> The FMV was in low resolution. Probably because they needed to conserve
> space. They may release a DVD version with high quality FMV though I
> wouldn't count on it. As for the acting, I didn't find it too bad. Some of
> the scenes in GK2 were really awkward at best, but you're able to look past
> that. It just sounds to me like you're unable to see past 3d models and
> their expressions. Maybe you just didn't like the actual scene, but I don't
> think it would have been more appealing even if it was live-action.
No, even the most awkward GK2 moment was better than that scene
with Jesus and GK's ancestor. The problem withthe FMV is that they're
all rendered from the in-game engine. Then WHY didn't they just USE the
in-game engine to protray it instead?!?!?!?! It would have looked so much
better. I love the in-game graphics anyhow. But putting it as grainy FMV
instead of 800x600 graphics (I ran GK3 in this resolution) is just horrible.
The problem is, the polygon models were fine in acting until that scene.
Considering that it IS the most important scene, botching it up is the worst
thing that could be done to this game.
Grimfarrow
Grimfarrow
toon...@my-deja.com wrote:
No we don't. He complained about stuff I don't care about, like
real-time, the ability to miss clues and still continue, and the interface.
I liked all three of these. What I hated was the *ending*.
He said he couldn't bring himself to try to finish the game, so obviously
it's not the same argument.
Grimfarrow
Grimfarrow
toon...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > Ye, but see, that is *possible*. It can be done by mere mortals. The
> > Pendulum thing, on the other hand, is nigh impossible and ridiculous.
>
> That puzzle was horrible. I wanted to scream at Jane for putting that
> puzzle in there. I finally did do it. I save the game right away.
Agreed.
> > Some comments
> > 1) The FMV was absolutely cheesy. It was grainy, and the "Acting"
> by the
> > polygons were absolutely laughable. Especially the scene with Jesus
> and GK's
> > ancestor. It may have revealed GK's origin, but it did it in the
> worst possible
>
> The FMV was very grainy. I didn't mind the acting per se. Gabriel
> Knight isn't related to Jesus. Jesus just gave the first Schattenjager
> the power to fight evil. This one reason why I prefer The Last Express
> over Gabriel 1, 2, and 3. TLE is more beliveable than any GK game.
No, Jesus said that he needed one of the Roman guy's bloodline to
help him. Gabriel Knight was the one chosen (and is the Roman guy's
bloodline).
<snip>
> > > Of course, this doesn't mean that GK3 is the last GK. Jane Jensen
> does have
> > > an idea for GK4 as long as Sierra is willing to make one. If not,
> she could
> > > always just write a GK4 novel if Sierra grants her permission.
> >
> > Hmmm. I dunno if I really WANT another one after this. I'll have to
> think
> > about it.
> > I liked the game a lot until probably Day 3 6-9PM, when it started
> sinking like
> > Titanic.
>
> I think GK3 has really put a black mark on the series. I think it would
> be interesting to see a GK4. I rather not see another Gabriel Knight.
> Gabriel goes find Grace in Tibet. I really wish GK3 didn't take place
> in Europe. I rather have Turkey, Iran or something other Mystery that
> Gabriel and Grace would solve.
I didn't think GK3 was *that* bad. I was about to put it in the top 3
best adventure games until the end. I REALLY liked the Le Serpent
Rouge puzzles. Also, I liked the graphics (except the FMV) and the
atmosphere. After some thought, I'd give GK3 a 7/10. I *do*
still want another GK after all, partly because I want to see how the
usage of 3-D can evolve. Using S3TC, T&L, Environmental
Bump-Mapping, and a greater amount of polygons, I'm sure that
the characters will look much more life-like. GK3 was constrained by
the amount of polygons they could use on-screen. But with better
graphics card, that won't be an issue.
The question, no on knows where Grace is. People are wondering
if she is pregnant. Who knows? Maybe she won't even be involved!
Remember, Grace was supposed to aid GK in the "three trials."
GK3 is the last of the trials. Grace is freed from her destiny, and so
is GK. It's his decision to continue or end it.
Grimfarrow
Grimfarrow
toon...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> > I think GK1 had the BEST ending. Reason?
> > 1. The thing about the enemy was that the enemy was a *complex*
> > character. Malia was never just a "bad" guy. She had depth, and
> > does not represent pure evil (nor does Tetelo). However, such depth
> > does not exist in GK3. Montreaux is bad. period. Also, we really
> don't
> > know much about him, unlike in GK1 & 2, in which we get to know the
> > characters quite well, and being to empathize with them. As such, GK3
> > boils down to the boring, simple good vs. evil battle that I so
> despise.
> > 2. The ending was an emotional epiphany. It was exciting, tragic,
> and
> > yet uplifting. Plus, it wasn't cornball with GK3, with really bad
> FMV and
> > horrible polygonal characters trying to act (like the whole Jesus and
> Gabe's
> > ancestor scene-terrible!).
> >
> > In terms of story, character, and ending, GK2 probably was the best.
> > Unfortunately, GK2 was also not much of a "game". The really dull
> > point & click and the endless FMV really detracted from much gameplay.
>
> I think GK3 had the best ending out all the Gabriel Knight's. I really
> didn't like how Grace and Gabriel talked on the bridge about their life
> in the end of GK1 and GK2
I think it was great. It was a time for them to reflect about the change
that have
transpired in both of them as characters. GK1 and 2 was about catharsis
and the evolution of the flawed character. GK3, however, was about....
something.
> Those game endings weren't all that
> interesting. Malia and Von Glower were very complex villians. I wonder
> if Von Glower really was evil. He didn't do anything bad. It was his
> father that was evil. It's a role reversial of Sins of the father. His
> father had the sin that he couldn't redeemed. From the Lycanthrope
> books, he isn't damned unless he tastes of Human blood.
>
> Malia was a complex villian too. She wasn't a villian in the real
> sense. She's more of an Anti-villian and Gabriel an Anti-hero. GK2 was
> a really good game storywise. GK3 had a very shallow villian and the
> characters didn't care about anyone. They were very shallow. I think
> the voice acting in GK3 was really bad. I compared the voice acting of
> The Last Express. Those actors in TLE did a much better job than the
> famous voice actors of GK3. It proves that you don't have to be famous
> to do a good job. GK2 really suffered gameplay wise. Their was no game.
> It was just an interactive movie. GK3 is better in that department.
> It's saddens me that GK3 plot isn't as good as the GK1 and GK2.
I agree with all of the above. TLE does have better voice than GK3.
Grimfarrow
Nathan wrote:
> Why didnt the church jump on GK3????
>
> If this was a movie they would have been all over it like the Popes robes.
>
> GK3 had a great storline let down by a dated engine, and frustrating bugs.
>
I completely disagree.
GK3 had a disappointing storyline with a good engine. Plus, it only crashed
on me about three times (after palying for a while too).
Grimfarrow
Tesiae
>
> Of course I did. But his destiny is over. There is no more. The three
> trials are over. Yet GK still didn't have that kind of *change* like in
> GK1 & GK2 as a person. At least, the change didn't happen at the end.
> I wish he would have been more affected, especially since he just saw Jesus's
> body.
The recuperation of the body was only PART of the destiny of his ancestors..
now comes the fulfillment of HIS OWN destiny. To serve the light. There
are still many ills in the world. I understand that GK was pretty much a heel
for the entire game.. but receiving the vision of who he is.. and finally seeing
the body of the Lord, did change him.. For the first time in his life.. he
felt utter hummilty before something greater than himself. Afterwards,
he realized that he truly wanted to be with Grace.. his "other half."
Rest of the vampires? Emilio is not a vampire. Anyway.. Emilio
was fundamentally good natured though he may have gone
astray by being with the Blood Cult, at first.. The cultists
maliciously and willfully stole the blood for their own selfish,
nay, greedy purposes. Emilion did no such thing.. he only took
the blood which had already been spilled.. out of pure panic
and desperation.. Emilio drank the blood only that one time..
The cultists, who later became vampires, on the other hand,
continued for centuries to steal the blood from living beings
against their will. Come om, you have to see the difference
there?
> > I assumed that time had elapsed.
>
> Ummmm......
> Considering that it took GK
> 1) crossing the chessboard
> 2) grab the pendulum
> 3) chose the crap (stone, glove, etc.)
> 4) over the bridge
> It took Emilio a short time to get there?
>
> Say, it takes thirty minutes to get across.
> After GK defeats Montreaux, we see clearly what GK &
> friends did afterwards, right? That scene did NOT take
> 30 minutes or more.
>
You know.. there is such a thing as being too anal retentive..
Those are small insignificant details.. and if you can't get past
that, then I'm sorry...
> It just wasn't right.
> And how the hell did the vampires get there? Flew?
> Then how the hell did they choose the objects (glove,etc)?
Okay, this seems a bit iffy to me too.. I can assume that the vampires
have some degree of levitation... like Jesus did.. As for how
hey bypassed the other traps.. well I can assure you that they
knew what the hell they were doing.. unlike Gabriel.
Now here's something that does bother me: How the hell
were Mesmi and Mosely able to hold off three vampires?
I mean those bloody bastards easily took care of Stewart's
men? And they are are trained bodyguards, and freemasons
to boot! Mesmi might know of a few tricks.. but Mosely?!
It's still a mystery to me how the vampires were defeated...
> I never said that it was a blessing to be immortal (I wouldn't want it)
> I just disagreed that he should have been the guy who carried the
> body. There are many who are purer than he is.
Emilio was far more pure than any other person around.
He was the only one to have within him the holy blood of the
Lord.. the key to the great infinite. No on else could. I don't
know why you're seeing Emilio as an antagonist.. He has
suffered and sacrificed much.. and in the eyes of God,
there is no greater purity..
> > Now Emilio had a choice: either spend the rest of eternity
> > blaiming himself and living in utter pesimmism, or accept
> > his fate and search for a way to redeem himself in the
> > eyes of God. He decided to serve the Greater Good, though
> > not actively. He knew that someday, the cosmic events
> > which occured at the time of his transgressions would
> > return to facilitate the creation of a new Lord, and that
> > He would come to take the throne which Emilio held
> > for Him. He knew that at that time, independent forces,
> > sent into motion centuries before, would act to come to
> > the aid of his cause.
>
> Then why not see all of this through? Be the new messiah's
> guardian and ask directly for *his* forgiveness?
I think Emilio made the decision long ago that when the time
came, he would be forgiven for his transgression and he himself
would some day know finality. The body of Christ simply
could not be left on earth.. to be stolen again and again?
To cause tumult and confusion? The body of Christ must
given its proper respect...
There is no need for Emilio to ask forgiveness.. for through
his suffering, he was redeemed.. and was given the blessing
of reaching the infinite.
>
> > 9.) 100 years later, the the cosmic events returned
> > and the Stewarts brought forth a true heir and the
> > events of the game begin.
>
> But we don't know if he IS the true heir or not. That's
> the catch. In fact, I don't think he is.
I think that he is. Look at the movie where Emilio
carries the body out. As he passes by Mesmi holding
the baby, you'll note the luminescent body passes part
of its shine unto the child. The child has now received
the blessing of his ancestor...
Tesiae
PhantomWombat wrote:
> Marta Interiano wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> >
> > 9.) 100 years later, the the cosmic events returned
> > and the Stewarts brought forth a true heir and the
> > events of the game begin.
>
> I'm not so sure that the Stewart child was the true heir. Emilio does tell Grace that
> she MUST take extra-special care of herself, just after she and Gabriel had sex while
> the Window of Orion was still open...
>
Although the above is interesting.. I think the Stewart baby is
the true heir.. look at the end movie.. as Emilio passes
by Mesmi holding the child, the body's luminescence
passes on to the child.. sort of a blessing...
Grimfarrow
Charybdis wrote:
> Here's another question - why all the heir nonsense? If Emilio can take the
> power of the Kenosh Kenia by drinking Christ's blood, and his body is
> underground just underneath Montreux's feet - why all the messing around?
> Nip down there with a cup and the world is yours!
Problem is, there's no blood in a dead corpse.
> In addition, why would
> the vampires know how to get by the traps - they were cast out of the order
> and would therefore have had no more knowledge than the Brotherhood (since
> the Temple was a Templar construction, quasi-ironically). Yet Mesmi and
> Baza know nothing about the specific puzzles.
Exactly. I was puzzled by both Mosely (ESPECIALLY Mosely) and Mesmi
catching up, and the fact that the vampires were already there. A bit too
"convenient", I'd say.
Grimfarrow
>
> - Richard
Grimfarrow
Tesiae wrote:
> > > Didn't you pay attention?
> >
> > Of course I did. But his destiny is over. There is no more. The three
> > trials are over. Yet GK still didn't have that kind of *change* like in
> > GK1 & GK2 as a person. At least, the change didn't happen at the end.
> > I wish he would have been more affected, especially since he just saw Jesus's
> > body.
>
> The recuperation of the body was only PART of the destiny of his ancestors..
Do you remember the Dragon telling him that he has to undergo "three trials"?
He has now passed them. This was his destiny. He is done with the destiny
that was foretold since GK1, and is again reiterated by Jesus in GK3. Jesus
said he would need help from the Roman guy's descendant one day. GK
is the descendant, he had fulfilled his part by helping Jesus. It is done. Whatever
next is now purely GK's choosing.
> now comes the fulfillment of HIS OWN destiny. To serve the light. There
> are still many ills in the world.
This is an oversimplification of the very complex world of GK. You should know
already from GK1 and GK2 that "good" and "evil" is very relative. There was a
very thin line between the light and the dark. Is Von Glower to blame
for his cursed birth into the world as a werewolf? Is Malia or Tetelo to be blamed
for the racism and the bigotry of the south?
However, in GK3 everthing did boil down to good and evil. The bad guy is just
simply evil. No complexity in terms of emotions or feelings involved. In some
way, GK3 is the "deadest" of the three games, despite the whole Gabe/Grace thing.
I think after GK3, Gabe now has the choice in his life- the continue the tradition
of the Schattenjager, or pursue something else.
> I understand that GK was pretty much a heel
> for the entire game.. but receiving the vision of who he is.. and finally seeing
> the body of the Lord, did change him.. For the first time in his life.. he
> felt utter hummilty before something greater than himself. Afterwards,
> he realized that he truly wanted to be with Grace.. his "other half."
Ummm....I think he realized that after he slept with her. I mean, otherwise,
why would he keep on consulting Mosely? Also, there was an option
in Day 3, 3-6PM to talk to Grace about the future between them. However,
Gabe says that he wants to finish the case first. This implies that he already
had some ideas about what to tell Grace. The tomb scene wasn't the catalyst
that made him realize he wanted to be w/ Grace.
And the whole thing about humility...how would you know? Please give me
some evidence, or is that just something you *think* Gabe went through?
> > Yoiu said he later gained wisdom that he could never profit from it.
> > So why didn't the rest of the vampires also have such thoughts?
> > They both acted he same way, IMO- rash, yearning to save
> > the blood for either themselves or for the Brotherhood (which is
> > neutral). Point is, there is a very thin line between good and evil.
> > Emilio made it seem like there is a whole gap between them, even
> > when they did the same things.
> >
>
> Rest of the vampires? Emilio is not a vampire.
I know. I said the rest of the vampires as in.....the rest of the vampires
(ie, whomever that were around).
> Anyway.. Emilio
> was fundamentally good natured though he may have gone
> astray by being with the Blood Cult, at first.. The cultists
> maliciously and willfully stole the blood for their own selfish,
> nay, greedy purposes. Emilion did no such thing.. he only took
> the blood which had already been spilled.
Or so he says.
> and desperation.. Emilio drank the blood only that one time..
> The cultists, who later became vampires, on the other hand,
> continued for centuries to steal the blood from living beings
> against their will. Come om, you have to see the difference
> there?
One way or another, I just did not care for Emilio's elaborations.
The main reason is this: he drank the blood, out of desparation, right?
What if he actually decided that he DID crave the power? He could
have easily used it. In other words, the power was already HIS, no
matter if he used it for good or evil. I applaud him for not succumbing
to the temptation of using it, but what I fundamentally disagree with is the
fact that he was given it when he hadn't been proven to be good. Perhaps
it's the reason within me rebelling. I believe that a good thing deserves
another. However, he obtained the power of Kenosh Kenia not from
being good, but due to desperation. What he did with it is a different
question, but the thing is, I just don't think it's right.
> > > I assumed that time had elapsed.
> >
> > Ummmm......
> > Considering that it took GK
> > 1) crossing the chessboard
> > 2) grab the pendulum
> > 3) chose the crap (stone, glove, etc.)
> > 4) over the bridge
> > It took Emilio a short time to get there?
> >
> > Say, it takes thirty minutes to get across.
> > After GK defeats Montreaux, we see clearly what GK &
> > friends did afterwards, right? That scene did NOT take
> > 30 minutes or more.
>
> You know.. there is such a thing as being too anal retentive..
> Those are small insignificant details.. and if you can't get past
> that, then I'm sorry...
You know..there is such a thing as logic. If it doesn't work, the
believability (and my vested interest in the storyline) lessens.
And sorry, but to me, people need to adhere to the 4 dimensions.
This is not Star Trek. People don't just pop in and out within
seconds.
> > It just wasn't right.
> > And how the hell did the vampires get there? Flew?
> > Then how the hell did they choose the objects (glove,etc)?
>
> Okay, this seems a bit iffy to me too.. I can assume that the vampires
> have some degree of levitation... like Jesus did.. As for how
> hey bypassed the other traps.. well I can assure you that they
> knew what the hell they were doing.. unlike Gabriel.
> Now here's something that does bother me: How the hell
> were Mesmi and Mosely able to hold off three vampires?
> I mean those bloody bastards easily took care of Stewart's
> men? And they are are trained bodyguards, and freemasons
> to boot! Mesmi might know of a few tricks.. but Mosely?!
> It's still a mystery to me how the vampires were defeated...
I completely agree. Another hole.
> Emilio was far more pure than any other person around.
> He was the only one to have within him the holy blood of the
> Lord.. the key to the great infinite. No on else could. I don't
> know why you're seeing Emilio as an antagonist.. He has
> suffered and sacrificed much.. and in the eyes of God,
> there is no greater purity..
Okay, I buy that bit about him having the blood...except that blood
doesn't go to your bloodstream when ingest.....KIDDING!
Okay, now I AM being anal retentive ;) Although this IS true....
I just don't think he deserved the power of the Kenosh Kenia
when he drank it. That was my problem. Good thing he turned out
to be good, but what would happen if it was the other way...?
> > Then why not see all of this through? Be the new messiah's
> > guardian and ask directly for *his* forgiveness?
>
> I think Emilio made the decision long ago that when the time
> came, he would be forgiven for his transgression and he himself
> would some day know finality. The body of Christ simply
> could not be left on earth.. to be stolen again and again?
> To cause tumult and confusion? The body of Christ must
> given its proper respect...
Okay, I buy this.
> There is no need for Emilio to ask forgiveness.. for through
> his suffering, he was redeemed.. and was given the blessing
> of reaching the infinite.
His suffering came by his choice. I agree to that. But see above.
> > > 9.) 100 years later, the the cosmic events returned
> > > and the Stewarts brought forth a true heir and the
> > > events of the game begin.
> >
> > But we don't know if he IS the true heir or not. That's
> > the catch. In fact, I don't think he is.
>
> I think that he is. Look at the movie where Emilio
> carries the body out. As he passes by Mesmi holding
> the baby, you'll note the luminescent body passes part
> of its shine unto the child. The child has now received
> the blessing of his ancestor...
Hmmm....I watched it again, and I see what you mean here
You know, I can prolly name as many holes in GK1 and 2
plotlines, but the fact that I didn't suggests that somehow the
story just isn't as convincing and as solid as the other two.
Grimfarrow
Tesiae
Charybdis wrote:
> > Problem is, there's no blood in a dead corpse.
>
> Yet if he has the regenerative properties alluded to in the game, there
> would be living flesh - why not blood?
>
> - Richard
Because Christ chose to spill all the blood.. he willfully died
even though his body would remain intact.. It's not really
alive.. but it hasn't decayed.. I believe it's called
beatification...
Nathan
If this was a movie they would have been all over it like the Popes robes.
GK3 had a great storline let down by a dated engine, and frustrating bugs.
Grimfarrow <rpha...@calpoly.edu> wrote in message
news:3869A662...@calpoly.edu...
>
>
> Charybdis wrote:
>
> > Grimfarrow <rpha...@calpoly.edu> wrote in message
> > news:38693D99...@calpoly.edu...
> > > .............
> > > .............
> > >
> > > I'm thinking.
> > >
> > > *spoiler*
> > > .
> > > .
> > > .
> > > .
> > > .
> > > .
> > > .
> > > .
> >
> > >
> > > What's up with that Indy Jones-type stuff at the end? That's SO
un-GK.
> >
> > As ranted about earlier.
>
> I wasn't following the thread, because, well, I wasn't about to read
> spoilers,
> since I just finished the game!
>
> > > Also, this is the worst ending out of the three.
> >
> > Nah - I think GK1 had the worst ending, although I like them.
>
> UGH!!!
>
> I think GK1 had the BEST ending. Reason?
> 1. The thing about the enemy was that the enemy was a *complex*
> character. Malia was never just a "bad" guy. She had depth, and
> does not represent pure evil (nor does Tetelo). However, such depth
> does not exist in GK3. Montreaux is bad. period. Also, we really don't
> know much about him, unlike in GK1 & 2, in which we get to know the
> characters quite well, and being to empathize with them. As such, GK3
> boils down to the boring, simple good vs. evil battle that I so despise.
> 2. The ending was an emotional epiphany. It was exciting, tragic, and
> yet uplifting. Plus, it wasn't cornball with GK3, with really bad FMV and
> horrible polygonal characters trying to act (like the whole Jesus and
Gabe's
> ancestor scene-terrible!).
>
> In terms of story, character, and ending, GK2 probably was the best.
> Unfortunately, GK2 was also not much of a "game". The really dull
> point & click and the endless FMV really detracted from much gameplay.
>
> Grimfarrow
>
> > - Richard
>
Charybdis
> felt utter hummilty before something greater than himself. Afterwards,
> he realized that he truly wanted to be with Grace.. his "other half."
Yes, but to get to that point he had to become a total jerk for no apparent
reason!
> Okay, this seems a bit iffy to me too.. I can assume that the vampires
> have some degree of levitation... like Jesus did.. As for how
They can. You see them floating both in Gabriel's room and outside the last
room.
> hey bypassed the other traps.. well I can assure you that they
> knew what the hell they were doing.. unlike Gabriel.
> Now here's something that does bother me: How the hell
> were Mesmi and Mosely able to hold off three vampires?
> I mean those bloody bastards easily took care of Stewart's
> men? And they are are trained bodyguards, and freemasons
> to boot! Mesmi might know of a few tricks.. but Mosely?!
> It's still a mystery to me how the vampires were defeated...
Here's another question - why all the heir nonsense? If Emilio can take the
power of the Kenosh Kenia by drinking Christ's blood, and his body is
underground just underneath Montreux's feet - why all the messing around?
Nip down there with a cup and the world is yours! In addition, why would
the vampires know how to get by the traps - they were cast out of the order
and would therefore have had no more knowledge than the Brotherhood (since
the Temple was a Templar construction, quasi-ironically). Yet Mesmi and
Baza know nothing about the specific puzzles.
- Richard
Charybdis
Charybdis
> even though his body would remain intact.. It's not really
> alive.. but it hasn't decayed.. I believe it's called
> beatification...
When did he decide this? I know that he chose not to use his regenerative
powers to bring himself back from the dead...but that's not really the same
thing as spilling his blood.
- Richard
Charybdis
> tied up in Torment.
I'm not an AD&D fan, but this one looks good.
> I should probably play more Outcast too.
Great game.
- Richard
Marta Interiano
Charybdis wrote:
Jesus decided to sacrifice himself early in His life.. In order for
the body to regenerate, it needs blood... The sacred blood is the
power of the K'nosh K'naya (sp?).. remove it, and He would
be powerless.. Read up on all the articles in Sidney.. you'll find
an extensive database on blood cults.. and meaning behind
them.
Laurent Pichler
The following is a spoiler! I didn't want to read this! You just took
away a surprise for s.o. who hasn't played GK3 already. Why can't you
just use the Spoiler Character ^L ?!?
>
> And sometimes there's such a thing as telling the audience too little. I
> think it was adequately explained. I don't see how you could have suspected
> Emilio was the Wandering Jew. There wasn't much indication that the
> Wandering Jew was involved in the case at all. As for Emilio drinking
> blood, I think you're having a black-and-white view of what's good and
> what's bad. Emilio made his mistakes like any ordinary human. He loved
> Jesus, but the vampires never really felt that way. All they were after was
> the power that Jesus had. Even though Emilio drank Jesus's blood, he paid
> for it the rest of his life. He gained immortality but he swore he would
> never use the power he had no matter what. Even if he didn't drink Jesus's
> blood, would he have sought out the bloodline descendants to steal their
> blood? I don't think so. But the vampires would, because they ARE
> vampires. Emilio isn't a vampire. Nobody reveres him, but the blood in him
> is revered since it's the blood of Jesus.
--
Hidden DOS secret: add BUGS=OFF to your CONFIG.SYS
Marta Interiano
> Do you remember the Dragon telling him that he has to undergo "three trials"?
> He has now passed them. This was his destiny. He is done with the destiny
> that was foretold since GK1, and is again reiterated by Jesus in GK3. Jesus
> said he would need help from the Roman guy's descendant one day. GK
> is the descendant, he had fulfilled his part by helping Jesus. It is done. Whatever
> next is now purely GK's choosing.
I will no disagree with this.. I will only say that Gabriel has fulfilled the
Shattejagger's primal task given unto them... Now, that fate has seen to
it that the body has been returned to its rightful place... Gabriel has now
been given free will to make his own choices. Hmm, I wonder...
What if the body was originally intended to depart for the infinire i.e. the
Resurrection, but it was intercepted before it could be taken.. and then
hidden away..
> > now comes the fulfillment of HIS OWN destiny. To serve the light. There
> > are still many ills in the world.
>
> This is an oversimplification of the very complex world of GK. You should know
> already from GK1 and GK2 that "good" and "evil" is very relative. There was a
> very thin line between the light and the dark. Is Von Glower to blame
> for his cursed birth into the world as a werewolf? Is Malia or Tetelo to be blamed
> for the racism and the bigotry of the south?
Okay.. I can agree with this.. but let me ask you this: Why are you so
unwilling to forgive Emilio?
> However, in GK3 everthing did boil down to good and evil. The bad guy is just
> simply evil. No complexity in terms of emotions or feelings involved. In some
> way, GK3 is the "deadest" of the three games, despite the whole Gabe/Grace thing.
Okay.. I will agree that the antagonists' pasts, motivations, and
respective raison d'etre were not explored. Maybe Jane just
plain ran out of time... However, I do not believe that all things
coexist in both realms of good and evil.. most things do.. but there
are somethings in this world.. that are just plain evil... and no
apology could or ever should be made for them.
> I think after GK3, Gabe now has the choice in his life- the continue the tradition
> of the Schattenjager, or pursue something else.
We'll see...
> Ummm....I think he realized that after he slept with her. I mean, otherwise,
> why would he keep on consulting Mosely? Also, there was an option
> in Day 3, 3-6PM to talk to Grace about the future between them. However,
> Gabe says that he wants to finish the case first. This implies that he already
> had some ideas about what to tell Grace. The tomb scene wasn't the catalyst
> that made him realize he wanted to be w/ Grace.
>
> And the whole thing about humility...how would you know? Please give me
> some evidence, or is that just something you *think* Gabe went through?
Look at the end movie.. as Emilio is carrying the body of Jesus out..
Gabriel is bowing down.. and as Emilio enters the portal into the
infinite, Mosely asks "Was that...?" Gabe interrupts him and
says, "Dont say it..," covers his face and ends with, "....Oh God.."
I think that this extraordinary event, combined with the vision of
his distant past, made Gabriel realize that there are some things
that are so beautiful and so sacred, that in his own flawed
and arrogant self, he can feel naught but utter humility.
Just listen to the tone of his voice..
> I know. I said the rest of the vampires as in.....the rest of the vampires
> (ie, whomever that were around).
Forgive me for being anally retentive too.. but the word "rest"
in that context indicates that Emilio was part of their group
or like them... sorry... anal mode: OFF
> > Anyway.. Emilio
> > was fundamentally good natured though he may have gone
> > astray by being with the Blood Cult, at first.. The cultists
> > maliciously and willfully stole the blood for their own selfish,
> > nay, greedy purposes. Emilion did no such thing.. he only took
> > the blood which had already been spilled.
>
> Or so he says.
Oh come on! Now you're saying that he's lying? If he were
so impure as you claim he is, why would God, the Infinite,
or Whatever let him take the body with him?
> One way or another, I just did not care for Emilio's elaborations.
> The main reason is this: he drank the blood, out of desparation, right?
> What if he actually decided that he DID crave the power? He could
> have easily used it. In other words, the power was already HIS, no
> matter if he used it for good or evil. I applaud him for not succumbing
> to the temptation of using it, but what I fundamentally disagree with is the
> fact that he was given it when he hadn't been proven to be good.
He was not GIVEN the power.. he stole it.. But my view is, that
it was best that Emilio ( then Ali ) stole it rather than the Cult.
God know what they wold have done with it. We live in a world
which continually compromises for the lesser evil.
> Perhaps
> it's the reason within me rebelling. I believe that a good thing deserves
> another. However, he obtained the power of Kenosh Kenia not from
> being good, but due to desperation. What he did with it is a different
> question, but the thing is, I just don't think it's right.
>
Shakespeare was right: "The evil that men do lives after them/
the good is oft interred with their bones." No matter how much
good a man does, people will still remember his one sinful act
in his past.
> You know..there is such a thing as logic. If it doesn't work, the
> believability (and my vested interest in the storyline) lessens.
> And sorry, but to me, people need to adhere to the 4 dimensions.
> This is not Star Trek. People don't just pop in and out within
> seconds.
Logic also dicates that people cannot levitate under their own
power, even if they are vampires.. and that a human being
cannot live for 2000 years.. and that a corpse will begin to
decay a couple of hours after death. Just attribute Emilio's
fast migration to the mysterious ways of God. ;-)
> I completely agree. Another hole.
Yeah.. but those dreaful temple sequences were pasable
in lieu of such wonderful ending movies.
> Okay, I buy that bit about him having the blood...except that blood
> doesn't go to your bloodstream when ingest.....KIDDING!
> Okay, now I AM being anal retentive ;) Although this IS true....
No, no.. it's magic blood..
> I just don't think he deserved the power of the Kenosh Kenia
> when he drank it. That was my problem. Good thing he turned out
> to be good, but what would happen if it was the other way...?
Alot of people don't deserve what they get... but sometimes..
they turn out to be okay..
> Okay, I buy this.
>
> > There is no need for Emilio to ask forgiveness.. for through
> > his suffering, he was redeemed.. and was given the blessing
> > of reaching the infinite.
>
> His suffering came by his choice. I agree to that. But see above.
>
> > > > 9.) 100 years later, the the cosmic events returned
> > > > and the Stewarts brought forth a true heir and the
> > > > events of the game begin.
> > >
> > > But we don't know if he IS the true heir or not. That's
> > > the catch. In fact, I don't think he is.
> >
> > I think that he is. Look at the movie where Emilio
> > carries the body out. As he passes by Mesmi holding
> > the baby, you'll note the luminescent body passes part
> > of its shine unto the child. The child has now received
> > the blessing of his ancestor...
>
> Hmmm....I watched it again, and I see what you mean here
>
> You know, I can prolly name as many holes in GK1 and 2
> plotlines, but the fact that I didn't suggests that somehow the
> story just isn't as convincing and as solid as the other two.
>
> Grimfarrow
That's fine. Your opinion is justas valid as mine and I happen
to agree with some things.. That's the beauty of being
individuals!
Knight37
>Sometime around Thu, 30 Dec 1999 13:19:32 -0000, "Charybdis"
><ric...@softorange.com> ran into the UN Assembly room and shouted
>passionately:
>
>>> Damn, I need to get off my ass and play this game then. I've been
>>> too tied up in Torment.
>>
>>I'm not an AD&D fan, but this one looks good.
>
>If it weren't for the combat (which is turn-based, so actually, I
>don't see any real room for complaint),
Planescape has the Infinity Engine real-time combat system (same engine
used in Baldur's Gate). You can pause it, though, and you can set it to
autopause at end of turn if you want it to behave sort of like a turn-
based game. You can also autopause on a lot of other events.
>I'd heartily recommend it
>for the Adventure group, since Planescape has some of the most
>well-written dialogue out of any game this year. I'm going to sound
>like a damn ad, but a lot of Planescape is philosophical debate
>between you and the other NPCs (if anything, the overarching theme
>is Western versus Eastern belief systems). Hell, even though there
>is combat, just about every quest can be solved through dialogue
>choices.
I'll second this. Planescape Torment has the best dialogue I've ever
read in ANY game, adventure or RPG. It's hands down the RPG of the
year. The setting is very fresh, the NPC's are very cool. All in all,
this is a great game. People who hate combat may not like it, but if
you don't mind a little, you'll love this game.
--
Knight37
"This is your life.
Good to the last drop.
Doesn't get any better than this.
This is your life,
and it's ending one minute at a time." -- Tyler Durden
Charybdis
> read in ANY game, adventure or RPG. It's hands down the RPG of the
> year. The setting is very fresh, the NPC's are very cool. All in all,
> this is a great game. People who hate combat may not like it, but if
> you don't mind a little, you'll love this game.
I enjoyed the gameplay of BG but the story bored me senseless - is
Planescape more interesting? The basic theme sounds excellent.
- Richard
Charybdis
> the body to regenerate, it needs blood... The sacred blood is the
> power of the K'nosh K'naya (sp?).. remove it, and He would
> be powerless.. Read up on all the articles in Sidney.. you'll find
> an extensive database on blood cults.. and meaning behind
> them.
He didn't decide to give up the power though - at least it isn't specified
that he did - just not to use it to
regenerate himself. Note that he can still act while on the cross -
blessing the Roman soldier's sword, and Emilio drinks after his death.
- Richard
Charybdis
> away a surprise for s.o. who hasn't played GK3 already. Why can't you
> just use the Spoiler Character ^L ?!?
The header is "just finished GK3" In a product like this, spoilers are
pretty much unavoidable when discussing the plot and gameplay.
- Richard
Amit Shah
herself. She goes to India so that the monk Chadrel can train her. I don't
think she's pregnant though. As for the Roman soldier, he was the first
Schattenjager. Gabriel finally accepts his destiny and realizes what his
life is meant for. I do know that Jane Jensen does intend for another GK
game. So I would assume Gabriel does keep fighting evil. But this time I
think he's going to do it without Grace. Kind of like in GK1. The 4th GK
game is rumored to be about ghosts in Scotland or England. If there is no
GK game, she may write a GK novel. As for the ending, I guess it depends
upon a person's taste. I thought it was pretty evident that GK3 would be a
very ambitious game from the start and it would be like an epic. Which it
was to me. Gabriel still didn't understand why he HAD to continue fighting
evil, but at the end there's a realization he has about his true destiny.
That vision was meant only for him in order to guide him in what he needs to
do. After that, you notice he's changed. He brushes off Madeline and
finally wants to tell Grace how he feels about her.
Grimfarrow wrote in message <386A90FB...@calpoly.edu>...
Charybdis
Cool. Must look out for it.
- Richard
Knight37
>Amit Shah <as...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>The following is a spoiler! I didn't want to read this! You just
>took away a surprise for s.o. who hasn't played GK3 already. Why
>can't you just use the Spoiler Character ^L ?!?
Get a grip. The message subject is "Just finished GK3"...
what did you expect this topic to be about, religious debate or
something?! ;P
Knight37
>I enjoyed the gameplay of BG but the story bored me senseless - is
>Planescape more interesting? The basic theme sounds excellent.
PS:T's story is IMMENSELY more interesting than BG's. Most people in
the RPG group are comparing it to the Fallout series, which is
generally thought of as one of the best RPG series. As I play PS:T, I
can't help but think, "Finally! A game written by a REAL WRITER and not
some gamer 'hack'!"
Grimfarrow
Thierry Nguyen wrote:
> Wait, you said you got this game for Xmas, and you finished it three
> days later?
Yup, I have days off ;) As a result, I devoted my time exclusively to
GK3.
> ...
>
> Damn, I need to get off my ass and play this game then. I've been too
> tied up in Torment. I should probably play more Outcast too.
You might find the ending to be a bit weak, just like I did. However, the
rest of the game was very enthralling.
As for Torment, I'll wait for the price to come down a bit. I still have many
games I want to play (but have no time). Actually, I still need to purchase
Jagged Alliance II.
Grimfarrow
>
> ...
>
> Ugh.
>
> --
> Thierry Nguyen
> "Journalism is just a gun. It's only got one bullet in it, but if you aim right,
> that's all you need. Aim it right, and you can blow a kneecap off the world."
> -Spider Jersualem in Warren Ellis' "Transmetropolitan" #3
Grimfarrow
Amit Shah wrote:
> Grace is free from Gabriel. But she leaves to become a schattenjager
> herself. She goes to India so that the monk Chadrel can train her.
This is pure speculation. It was obvious she had some kind of revelation,
just like Gabe did at the tomb (you know, the whole Jesus/Roman soldier
bit). Perhaps, like Gabriel, she has a revelation about her own ancestry?
> I don't
> think she's pregnant though. As for the Roman soldier, he was the first
> Schattenjager.
Of course.
> Gabriel finally accepts his destiny and realizes what his
> life is meant for.
I think he accepted his destiny since GK1. He has known what his life
is meant for a while ago.
> I do know that Jane Jensen does intend for another GK
> game. So I would assume Gabriel does keep fighting evil.
OR quasi-evil, like GK1 & 2. GK3 is the most simplistic of the three.
Malia and Von Glower are not "evil".
> But this time I
> think he's going to do it without Grace. Kind of like in GK1.
HUH???? He *needed* Grace for GK1 as much as the others.
She did all the research, and rescued him from the marsh.
> The 4th GK
> game is rumored to be about ghosts in Scotland or England. If there is no
> GK game, she may write a GK novel.
Wishful thinking. Sierra owns the right to GK. If they don't want another
novel, they just say to Jane that she can't do one.
> As for the ending, I guess it depends
> upon a person's taste. I thought it was pretty evident that GK3 would be a
> very ambitious game from the start and it would be like an epic.
I *was* very ambitious.......except for the stereotyping of Montreaux and
the Indy-like ending. those are the very antithesis of ambitious.
> Which it
> was to me. Gabriel still didn't understand why he HAD to continue fighting
> evil, but at the end there's a realization he has about his true destiny.
It's called "responsibility to one's heritage"?
> That vision was meant only for him in order to guide him in what he needs to
> do. After that, you notice he's changed. He brushes off Madeline and
> finally wants to tell Grace how he feels about her.
He changed after he slept with Grace, not from that vision. Otherwise, why
does he says, "Mosely's right, she IS a babe" about Grace during the last
day????
Grimfarrow
Grimfarrow
Marta Interiano wrote:
> >
> > Do you remember the Dragon telling him that he has to undergo "three trials"?
> > He has now passed them. This was his destiny. He is done with the destiny
> > that was foretold since GK1, and is again reiterated by Jesus in GK3. Jesus
> > said he would need help from the Roman guy's descendant one day. GK
> > is the descendant, he had fulfilled his part by helping Jesus. It is done. Whatever
> > next is now purely GK's choosing.
>
> I will no disagree with this..
???
Does this mean you agree or you don't? Double negatives are confusing to
me :0
> I will only say that Gabriel has fulfilled the
> Shattejagger's primal task given unto them... Now, that fate has seen to
> it that the body has been returned to its rightful place... Gabriel has now
> been given free will to make his own choices.
Exactly what I said above.
> Hmm, I wonder...
> What if the body was originally intended to depart for the infinire i.e. the
> Resurrection, but it was intercepted before it could be taken.. and then
> hidden away.
I think that's exactly what happened.
> > > now comes the fulfillment of HIS OWN destiny. To serve the light. There
> > > are still many ills in the world.
> >
> > This is an oversimplification of the very complex world of GK. You should know
> > already from GK1 and GK2 that "good" and "evil" is very relative. There was a
> > very thin line between the light and the dark. Is Von Glower to blame
> > for his cursed birth into the world as a werewolf? Is Malia or Tetelo to be blamed
> > for the racism and the bigotry of the south?
>
> Okay.. I can agree with this.. but let me ask you this: Why are you so
> unwilling to forgive Emilio?
I dunno. I guess I have a need for someone who is not very clear-cut as to whether he is
evil/good.
> > However, in GK3 everthing did boil down to good and evil. The bad guy is just
> > simply evil. No complexity in terms of emotions or feelings involved. In some
> > way, GK3 is the "deadest" of the three games, despite the whole Gabe/Grace thing.
>
> Okay.. I will agree that the antagonists' pasts, motivations, and
> respective raison d'etre were not explored. Maybe Jane just
> plain ran out of time... However, I do not believe that all things
> coexist in both realms of good and evil.. most things do.. but there
> are somethings in this world.. that are just plain evil... and no
> apology could or ever should be made for them.
I completely disagee. I don't believe in absolutes, whether it be absolutely
good or absolutely evil. Even the most horrible of man has their redeeming
points. Take, for example, Hitler. If it wasn't for the war and the Holocaust,
he'd be known as Germany's greatest leader. He was charismatic, a great
orator, and a shrewd man. However, he was also insane and a mass
murderer.
> > I think after GK3, Gabe now has the choice in his life- the continue the tradition
> > of the Schattenjager, or pursue something else.
>
> We'll see...
>
> > Ummm....I think he realized that after he slept with her. I mean, otherwise,
> > why would he keep on consulting Mosely? Also, there was an option
> > in Day 3, 3-6PM to talk to Grace about the future between them. However,
> > Gabe says that he wants to finish the case first. This implies that he already
> > had some ideas about what to tell Grace. The tomb scene wasn't the catalyst
> > that made him realize he wanted to be w/ Grace.
> >
> > And the whole thing about humility...how would you know? Please give me
> > some evidence, or is that just something you *think* Gabe went through?
>
> Look at the end movie.. as Emilio is carrying the body of Jesus out..
> Gabriel is bowing down.. and as Emilio enters the portal into the
> infinite, Mosely asks "Was that...?" Gabe interrupts him and
> says, "Dont say it..," covers his face and ends with, "....Oh God.."
> I think that this extraordinary event, combined with the vision of
> his distant past, made Gabriel realize that there are some things
> that are so beautiful and so sacred, that in his own flawed
> and arrogant self, he can feel naught but utter humility.
> Just listen to the tone of his voice..
Yes, but this whole "realization" bit, I don't buy it. I listened to the tone
of his voice, and it told me nothing much. I agreed with you about that
Emilip part, but not this one.
> > I know. I said the rest of the vampires as in.....the rest of the vampires
> > (ie, whomever that were around).
>
> Forgive me for being anally retentive too.. but the word "rest"
> in that context indicates that Emilio was part of their group
> or like them... sorry... anal mode: OFF
Okie doke!
> > > Anyway.. Emilio
> > > was fundamentally good natured though he may have gone
> > > astray by being with the Blood Cult, at first.. The cultists
> > > maliciously and willfully stole the blood for their own selfish,
> > > nay, greedy purposes. Emilion did no such thing.. he only took
> > > the blood which had already been spilled.
> >
> > Or so he says.
>
> Oh come on! Now you're saying that he's lying? If he were
> so impure as you claim he is, why would God, the Infinite,
> or Whatever let him take the body with him?
Exactly my point. Why? I still think someone else, like Mother
Teresa (if she was alive) should do it instead.
> > One way or another, I just did not care for Emilio's elaborations.
> > The main reason is this: he drank the blood, out of desparation, right?
> > What if he actually decided that he DID crave the power? He could
> > have easily used it. In other words, the power was already HIS, no
> > matter if he used it for good or evil. I applaud him for not succumbing
> > to the temptation of using it, but what I fundamentally disagree with is the
> > fact that he was given it when he hadn't been proven to be good.
>
> He was not GIVEN the power.. he stole it..
Exactly. Thus my contempt.
> But my view is, that
> it was best that Emilio ( then Ali ) stole it rather than the Cult.
> God know what they wold have done with it. We live in a world
> which continually compromises for the lesser evil.
I agree...except for the last sentence. Evil and good is a term only
applicable to humans. We don't *live* in a world of good and evil,
but we *make* it to be so. Nature is amoral.
> > Perhaps
> > it's the reason within me rebelling. I believe that a good thing deserves
> > another. However, he obtained the power of Kenosh Kenia not from
> > being good, but due to desperation. What he did with it is a different
> > question, but the thing is, I just don't think it's right.
> >
>
> Shakespeare was right: "The evil that men do lives after them/
> the good is oft interred with their bones." No matter how much
> good a man does, people will still remember his one sinful act
> in his past.
True.
> > You know..there is such a thing as logic. If it doesn't work, the
> > believability (and my vested interest in the storyline) lessens.
> > And sorry, but to me, people need to adhere to the 4 dimensions.
> > This is not Star Trek. People don't just pop in and out within
> > seconds.
>
> Logic also dicates that people cannot levitate under their own
> power, even if they are vampires.. and that a human being
> cannot live for 2000 years.. and that a corpse will begin to
> decay a couple of hours after death. Just attribute Emilio's
> fast migration to the mysterious ways of God. ;-)
YEs, but all these points (except the last) made *sense* in the context
of the game. Unless Emilio broke his will about using his powers....
Another whole debate would ensue!
> > I completely agree. Another hole.
>
> Yeah.. but those dreaful temple sequences were pasable
> in lieu of such wonderful ending movies.
To me, they disappointed me greatly. It was too reminiscent of Indy.
> > Okay, I buy that bit about him having the blood...except that blood
> > doesn't go to your bloodstream when ingest.....KIDDING!
> > Okay, now I AM being anal retentive ;) Although this IS true....
>
> No, no.. it's magic blood..
Yes, but does magic blood act the same way in a human in terms of ingestion?
Now THAT's a question ;)
>
> > I just don't think he deserved the power of the Kenosh Kenia
> > when he drank it. That was my problem. Good thing he turned out
> > to be good, but what would happen if it was the other way...?
>
> Alot of people don't deserve what they get... but sometimes..
> they turn out to be okay..
Yes. But it seems to be more luck than anything else.
> > Hmmm....I watched it again, and I see what you mean here
> >
> > You know, I can prolly name as many holes in GK1 and 2
> > plotlines, but the fact that I didn't suggests that somehow the
> > story just isn't as convincing and as solid as the other two.
> >
> > Grimfarrow
>
> That's fine. Your opinion is justas valid as mine and I happen
> to agree with some things.. That's the beauty of being
> individuals!
Agreed! :)
Grimfarrow
toon...@my-deja.com
> No, even the most awkward GK2 moment was better than that scene
> with Jesus and GK's ancestor. The problem withthe FMV is that they're
> all rendered from the in-game engine. Then WHY didn't they just USE
the
> in-game engine to protray it instead?!?!?!?! It would have looked so
much
> better. I love the in-game graphics anyhow. But putting it as
grainy FMV
> instead of 800x600 graphics (I ran GK3 in this resolution) is just
horrible.
I know. The FMV suck and I really think everything should have been in
done in the game engine in GK3. The Last Express rendered everything in
the game engine. It turn out wonderful. I am a little sadden that the
story of GK3 didn't turn out that great. FMV is too grainy and it sucks
and needs to be scrap and needs to be forgetten. This game could of
have fit on four CD's. Most Avi sequences that I have made are 50
megabytes with Microsoft Video. I compression them with MPEG and the
file is around 12 megabytes. Many of the AVI files I saw were around 5
to 24 megabytes. The largest was 24 megabytes. That's is probaly why it
is grainy.
I am sure these FMV files uncompressed are 4 gigs. They had to be
compressed in order for the game to run on average computers. The FMV
files would be so slow uncompressed. I think a 545 megabyte file that I
had compressed to around 71 megabytes. The codec compression that GK3
uses is bink.
GK3 is really boring on the first CD. I wish that part wasn't even done
at all. I think the Chapter system worked perfectly fine from Gabriel
Knight 2. I think I missed huge chunks of the story. I got 808 points
out of 945 ponts. I think Jane's idea is if ain't broke, break it, so
that you can fix it.
GK3 is a good game. The story isn't as good as GK1 and GK2. While the
Graphics are better than the two combined. They is a whole lot more
gameplay in this game. I really think the 3D engine wasn't use to it
full use. It would have been nice to go underneath a bed and find a
note.
toon...@my-deja.com
> I didn't think GK3 was *that* bad. I was about to put it in the top 3
> best adventure games until the end. I REALLY liked the Le Serpent
> Rouge puzzles. Also, I liked the graphics (except the FMV) and the
> atmosphere. After some thought, I'd give GK3 a 7/10. I *do*
> still want another GK after all, partly because I want to see how the
> usage of 3-D can evolve. Using S3TC, T&L, Environmental
> Bump-Mapping, and a greater amount of polygons, I'm sure that
> the characters will look much more life-like. GK3 was constrained by
> the amount of polygons they could use on-screen. But with better
> graphics card, that won't be an issue.
I agree. I felt like it's put some scratches on a nice clean surface.
> The question, no on knows where Grace is. People are wondering
> if she is pregnant. Who knows? Maybe she won't even be involved!
> Remember, Grace was supposed to aid GK in the "three trials."
> GK3 is the last of the trials. Grace is freed from her destiny, and
so
> is GK. It's his decision to continue or end it.
I remember the rumors of what GK3 is going to be. I think I remember a
title saying Someone's Pregnant? I think another title was Ancient
Chinese Ghosts. I really would like Jane Jensen started a series with
Grace Nakimura. She's a great character. She's the best female
protaganist ever. She's complex and very clever. I think I would like
the next GK to be set in Tibet or China. I think Grace is going where
Chadrel Gyatso is. I rather would see Jane Jensen design a new game
series rather than a Gabriel Knight 4. All we have seen of her is
designing Gabriel Knight games.
I pretty sure Gabe's diehard fans will persuade him to never give up
being a Schattenjager.
toon...@my-deja.com
"Amit Shah" <as...@optonline.net> wrote:
> Grace is free from Gabriel. But she leaves to become a schattenjager
> herself. She goes to India so that the monk Chadrel can train her.
> think she's pregnant though. As for the Roman soldier, he was the
first
his
> life is meant for. I do know that Jane Jensen does intend for
another GK
> game. So I would assume Gabriel does keep fighting evil. But this
time I
> think he's going to do it without Grace. Kind of like in GK1. The
4th GK
> game is rumored to be about ghosts in Scotland or England. If there
is no
depends
> upon a person's taste. I thought it was pretty evident that GK3 would
be a
> very ambitious game from the start and it would be like an epic.
> was to me. Gabriel still didn't understand why he HAD to continue
fighting
> evil, but at the end there's a realization he has about his true
destiny.
needs to
> do. After that, you notice he's changed. He brushes off Madeline and
> finally wants to tell Grace how he feels about her.
Well, If she is pregnant. The entire Gabriel Knight series is a soap
opera. I forgot about the three trials. Grimfarrow is right. Gabriel
Knight had help with Grace from the first GK. She was just a NPC. She
became a character to play with until GK2. I keep thinking Gabriel
Knight will go to India/China/Tibet (I can't make my mind up) to find
Grace. It's hard to know what will happened.
toon...@my-deja.com
> No we don't. He complained about stuff I don't care about, like
> real-time, the ability to miss clues and still continue, and the
interface.
I agree with some of your opinions. I love real-time. I don't mind
missing clues per se. The interface of GK3 is really good. I liked it
better than that of Grim Fandango.
> I liked all three of these. What I hated was the *ending*.
>
> He said he couldn't bring himself to try to finish the game, so
obviously
> it's not the same argument.
Charybdis
> series rather than a Gabriel Knight 4. All we have seen of her is
> designing Gabriel Knight games.
She co-designed King's Quest VI.
- Richard
Amit Shah
spoil the game for anyone. I just assumed that only people who've finished
the game would actually read the posts under this topic
Laurent Pichler wrote in message
<1e3mqlp.3s...@ppp09352.01019freenet.de>...
>Amit Shah <as...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>The following is a spoiler! I didn't want to read this! You just took
>away a surprise for s.o. who hasn't played GK3 already. Why can't you
>just use the Spoiler Character ^L ?!?
>
>>
Grimfarrow
toon...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > I didn't think GK3 was *that* bad. I was about to put it in the top 3
> > best adventure games until the end. I REALLY liked the Le Serpent
> > Rouge puzzles. Also, I liked the graphics (except the FMV) and the
> > atmosphere. After some thought, I'd give GK3 a 7/10. I *do*
> > still want another GK after all, partly because I want to see how the
> > usage of 3-D can evolve. Using S3TC, T&L, Environmental
> > Bump-Mapping, and a greater amount of polygons, I'm sure that
> > the characters will look much more life-like. GK3 was constrained by
> > the amount of polygons they could use on-screen. But with better
> > graphics card, that won't be an issue.
>
> I agree. I felt like it's put some scratches on a nice clean surface.
Actually, after replaying parts of it, I notch the score up to 8/10. I
really
liked the correlation between viticulture and vampires. Perhaps Hitler's
attempt at creating the Uebermensch also had some roots into secret
cults?
> I remember the rumors of what GK3 is going to be. I think I remember a
> title saying Someone's Pregnant? I think another title was Ancient
> Chinese Ghosts. I really would like Jane Jensen started a series with
> Grace Nakimura. She's a great character. She's the best female
> protaganist ever. She's complex and very clever. I think I would like
> the next GK to be set in Tibet or China. I think Grace is going where
> Chadrel Gyatso is. I rather would see Jane Jensen design a new game
> series rather than a Gabriel Knight 4. All we have seen of her is
> designing Gabriel Knight games.
I think it *would* be cool, but I don't think that will happen. I've heard
the
next one will take place in Scotland.
As for her only designing GK games, you're wrong. She also helped in
Police Quest 3, Eco Quest, King's Quest 6, etc.
> I pretty sure Gabe's diehard fans will persuade him to never give up
> being a Schattenjager.
I won't ;)
Grimfarrow
Grimfarrow
toon...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Well, If she is pregnant. The entire Gabriel Knight series is a soap
> opera. I forgot about the three trials. Grimfarrow is right. Gabriel
> Knight had help with Grace from the first GK. She was just a NPC. She
> became a character to play with until GK2. I keep thinking Gabriel
> Knight will go to India/China/Tibet (I can't make my mind up) to find
> Grace. It's hard to know what will happened.
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
Who knows? One thing's for sure, the Schattenjaegers
also need an heir to pass the bloodline ;)
Grimfarrow
Grimfarrow
Charybdis wrote:
> > I rather would see Jane Jensen design a new game
> > series rather than a Gabriel Knight 4. All we have seen of her is
> > designing Gabriel Knight games.
>
> She co-designed King's Quest VI.
>
> - Richard
And Eco Quest. And helped in Police Quest 3
Grimfarrow
Grimfarrow
toon...@my-deja.com wrote:
> I know. The FMV suck and I really think everything should have been in
> done in the game engine in GK3. The Last Express rendered everything in
> the game engine. It turn out wonderful. I am a little sadden that the
> story of GK3 didn't turn out that great. FMV is too grainy and it sucks
> and needs to be scrap and needs to be forgetten. This game could of
> have fit on four CD's. Most Avi sequences that I have made are 50
> megabytes with Microsoft Video. I compression them with MPEG and the
> file is around 12 megabytes. Many of the AVI files I saw were around 5
> to 24 megabytes. The largest was 24 megabytereceived. That's is probaly
> why it
> is grainy.
Actually, I just received my Creative Labs Annihilator Pro (the Geforce
card
w/ DDR-RAM). After installing it, I immediately proceeded to play GK3, this
time in 1024x768. The FMV looks better now....but only because it isn't
full-screen anymore (it's damn small). Hence, it's not pixelated.
However, the in-game graphics looks quite a bit better. I could swear that
everything just looks sharper and more defined, especially signs w/ words.
Even the grasses look greener (heh).
I do wish that they actually didn't degrade the FMV quality so much. Come
on, one extra CD wouldn't hurt!
> I am sure these FMV files uncompressed are 4 gigs. They had to be
> compressed in order for the game to run on average computers. The FMV
> files would be so slow uncompressed. I think a 545 megabyte file that I
> had compressed to around 71 megabytes. The codec compression that GK3
> uses is bink.
It obviously needs to be compressed, but what it *didn't* need was the
deterioration in quality. They should have made the FMVs like the ones
in the Final Fantasy 8 demo. Those look *great*.
> GK3 is really boring on the first CD. I wish that part wasn't even done
> at all. I think the Chapter system worked perfectly fine from Gabriel
> Knight 2. I think I missed huge chunks of the story. I got 808 points
> out of 945 ponts. I think Jane's idea is if ain't broke, break it, so
> that you can fix it.
I liked the first CD, especially near sundown. I agree that the first
timeblock
was dull, but the pace quickened. I never found it boring. I also find the
time blocks to be perfectly ok.
You did miss a lot of the story if you finished with only 808! I had
935/965 (not 945) at the end. Fact is, this game really depends a lot more
on the player's vigilance than any others. I like this, actually. One of
the
biggest complaints about adventure games is that once you're stuck, if you
can't solve it, people sometimes give up. Especially for those who don't
play adventure games, they have very low tolerance to being "Stuck".
As such, GK3 is perfect for them, because you can't really get "stuck"
(unless you missed something major) as easily. There are things
you can omit.
> GK3 is a good game. The story isn't as good as GK1 and GK2. While the
> Graphics are better than the two combined. They is a whole lot more
> gameplay in this game. I really think the 3D engine wasn't use to it
> full use. It would have been nice to go underneath a bed and find a
> note.
*SPOILER*
Well, it did a good job in several scenes, like in Montreaux's castle
(the secret button, the drawer, and the hidden painting in the eye).
Another is in Mosely's room. There may be others too, but I do
agree that they should have used it more. But they've definitely got
the right idea.
And I'd agree with the story too. GK3's too cut-and-dried for me.
But it is also the most epic of the three, and in THAT sense it succeeded
(Except for the end).
Grimfarrow
Amit Shah
>This is pure speculation. It was obvious she had some kind of revelation,
>just like Gabe did at the tomb (you know, the whole Jesus/Roman soldier
>bit). Perhaps, like Gabriel, she has a revelation about her own ancestry?
I don't think so. She was talking about going to the monk the whole time in
the game, and she looks at the picture. And there's no indication of her
ancestral roots being involved in the game.
>> I don't
>> think she's pregnant though. As for the Roman soldier, he was the first
>> Schattenjager.
>
>Of course.
>
>> Gabriel finally accepts his destiny and realizes what his
>> life is meant for.
Not quite. He still resents it, though he goes along with it. He doesn't
exactly know why he has to do what he does until that vision at the end
which gives him some insight as to how important the Schattenjager role
really is.
>is meant for a while ago.
>
>> I do know that Jane Jensen does intend for another GK
>> game. So I would assume Gabriel does keep fighting evil.
>
>OR quasi-evil, like GK1 & 2. GK3 is the most simplistic of the three.
>Malia and Von Glower are not "evil".
You know, having every villain as "quasi-evil" just becomes cliched and
boring after a while. You can't believe that there aren't any purely good
and evil forces out in the world. As for vampires, the whole reason they
did transform was because of their greed and corruption. So their evil
makes them who they are, unlike Von Glower and Malia. And the group was the
important factor in GK3, not Montreaux specifically. He just happened to be
the head of the vampires at the time. And there was still a danger that the
other vampires would turn on him for the blood as their kind are not known
for their loyalty.
>
>> But this time I
>> think he's going to do it without Grace. Kind of like in GK1.
>
>HUH???? He *needed* Grace for GK1 as much as the others.
>She did all the research, and rescued him from the marsh.
Actually, he didn't rely on Grace as much as he does in GK2 and GK3. He had
other people research for him too. He used Grace to get phone numbers,
addresses, and old newspaper clippings of previous murders. And while she
saved him, he also saved her at the end.
>> The 4th GK
>> game is rumored to be about ghosts in Scotland or England. If there is
no
>> GK game, she may write a GK novel.
>
>Wishful thinking. Sierra owns the right to GK. If they don't want another
>novel, they just say to Jane that she can't do one.
I know, but fans can only hope.
>> As for the ending, I guess it depends
>> upon a person's taste. I thought it was pretty evident that GK3 would be
a
>> very ambitious game from the start and it would be like an epic.
>
>I *was* very ambitious.......except for the stereotyping of Montreaux and
>the Indy-like ending. those are the very antithesis of ambitious.
I'm not talking about ambitious in difficulty. I'm talking about it in
terms of the scope of the story. And Montreaux was supposed to be a
stereotype simply because his group is stereotypically evil. It's what made
them transform from ordinary humans into more powerful beings. Their greed
and corruption changed them. They would have to be evil anyway to seek out
the blood of the descendants and steal it like that.
>> Which it
>> was to me. Gabriel still didn't understand why he HAD to continue
fighting
>> evil, but at the end there's a realization he has about his true destiny.
>
>It's called "responsibility to one's heritage"?
>
Which he does fulfill, but he still doesn't understand WHY it's so
important. He takes it seriously, but with that vision at the end, he
realizes that the Schattenjagers were ordained by God to fight evil. That's
when he fully accepts his destiny. That's also when he accepts full
responsibility. After he sees that vision, he's intent on telling Grace his
feelings for her. He never decided until then.
>> That vision was meant only for him in order to guide him in what he needs
to
>> do. After that, you notice he's changed. He brushes off Madeline and
>> finally wants to tell Grace how he feels about her.
>
>He changed after he slept with Grace, not from that vision. Otherwise, why
>does he says, "Mosely's right, she IS a babe" about Grace during the last
>day????
He's still unsure as I said above. He doesn't know what to do with Grace.
It complicated their relationship, but he never even tried to really talk to
Grace about his feelings for her. Because he was afraid to accept a
responsibility like that. Until the vision at the end, he was unclear about
a lot of things.
>Grimfarrow
>
toon...@my-deja.com
>
> Actually, I just received my Creative Labs Annihilator Pro (the
Geforce
> card
> w/ DDR-RAM). After installing it, I immediately proceeded to play
GK3, this
>
> time in 1024x768. The FMV looks better now....but only because it
isn't
> full-screen anymore (it's damn small). Hence, it's not pixelated.
> However, the in-game graphics looks quite a bit better. I could
swear that
> everything just looks sharper and more defined, especially signs w/
words.
> Even the grasses look greener (heh).
I tried playing the FMV sequences outside of the game using Bink. The
codec used to make Gabriel Knight 3's FMV sequences. The FMV was really
small. It look better.
> I do wish that they actually didn't degrade the FMV quality so much.
Come
> on, one extra CD wouldn't hurt!
It wouldn't of have hurt since their is extra space for a CD. I used
that extra space for the music of Gabriel Knight 1 and 2. I love the
music of the Gabriel Knight series. It's so good.
> It obviously needs to be compressed, but what it *didn't* need was the
> deterioration in quality. They should have made the FMVs like the
ones
> in the Final Fantasy 8 demo. Those look *great*.
MPEG can compress files into a small file size and still looks great
depending what you can do with the compression settings.
> I liked the first CD, especially near sundown. I agree that the first
> timeblock
> was dull, but the pace quickened. I never found it boring. I also
find the
>
> time blocks to be perfectly ok.
The first time block was a little dull. The other ones were pretty good.
> You did miss a lot of the story if you finished with only 808! I had
> 935/965 (not 945) at the end. Fact is, this game really depends a
lot more
> on the player's vigilance than any others. I like this, actually.
One of
> the
> biggest complaints about adventure games is that once you're stuck,
if you
> can't solve it, people sometimes give up. Especially for those who
don't
> play adventure games, they have very low tolerance to being "Stuck".
> As such, GK3 is perfect for them, because you can't really get "stuck"
> (unless you missed something major) as easily. There are things
> you can omit.
I am one of those people. I can't stand it when I get stuck on a
puzzle. I hate it when the entire game goes to halt. GK3 is better than
some games in some aspects in puzzle design. I really like RPG's and I
would like to play more of them. I really am enjoying Fallout. It's a
great game. I can see why you like RPG's Grimfarrow.
> *SPOILER*
> Well, it did a good job in several scenes, like in Montreaux's castle
> (the secret button, the drawer, and the hidden painting in the eye).
> Another is in Mosely's room. There may be others too, but I do
> agree that they should have used it more. But they've definitely got
> the right idea.
> And I'd agree with the story too. GK3's too cut-and-dried for me.
> But it is also the most epic of the three, and in THAT sense it
succeeded
> (Except for the end).
The ending was a little lame. I thought the ending was to much to be
contuined. I really just wish they just finish the story and series. I
really thought Von Glower was the most interesting villian ever. He
isn't a villian in the usual sense. Gabriel Knight 3's 3D engine proves
that 3D is the future for the genre. Still, I would love to see more 3D
adventure games. It allows for so much freedom. The best character in
GK3 was Grace Nakimura. She really stoled the show in that game. I
think Jane Jensen should start a series off with Grace.
TragedyTrousers
>I'll second this. Planescape Torment has the best dialogue I've ever
>read in ANY game, adventure or RPG. It's hands down the RPG of the
>year. The setting is very fresh, the NPC's are very cool. All in all,
>this is a great game. People who hate combat may not like it, but if
>you don't mind a little, you'll love this game.
What are the various possible install sizes for the game?
I'm running a bit low on hard disk space, so I might hold off getting
PS:T until I finish a few games and clear some room.
--
TragedyTrousers.
So is Myst any good, then?
Grimfarrow
toon...@my-deja.com wrote:
> It wouldn't of have hurt since their is extra space for a CD. I used
> that extra space for the music of Gabriel Knight 1 and 2. I love the
> music of the Gabriel Knight series. It's so good.
I love the music too!
> > It obviously needs to be compressed, but what it *didn't* need was the
> > deterioration in quality. They should have made the FMVs like the
> ones
> > in the Final Fantasy 8 demo. Those look *great*.
>
> MPEG can compress files into a small file size and still looks great
> depending what you can do with the compression settings.
Of course. However, those Final Fantasy FMVs aren't MPEG.
MPEG is really too limited.
> > You did miss a lot of the story if you finished with only 808! I had
> > 935/965 (not 945) at the end. Fact is, this game really depends a
> lot more
> > on the player's vigilance than any others. I like this, actually.
> One of
> > the
> > biggest complaints about adventure games is that once you're stuck,
> if you
> > can't solve it, people sometimes give up. Especially for those who
> don't
> > play adventure games, they have very low tolerance to being "Stuck".
> > As such, GK3 is perfect for them, because you can't really get "stuck"
> > (unless you missed something major) as easily. There are things
> > you can omit.
>
> I am one of those people. I can't stand it when I get stuck on a
> puzzle. I hate it when the entire game goes to halt. GK3 is better than
> some games in some aspects in puzzle design. I really like RPG's and I
> would like to play more of them. I really am enjoying Fallout. It's a
> great game. I can see why you like RPG's Grimfarrow.
Yes, especially the Wizardry series :)
> > *SPOILER*
> > Well, it did a good job in several scenes, like in Montreaux's castle
> > (the secret button, the drawer, and the hidden painting in the eye).
> > Another is in Mosely's room. There may be others too, but I do
> > agree that they should have used it more. But they've definitely got
> > the right idea.
> > And I'd agree with the story too. GK3's too cut-and-dried for me.
> > But it is also the most epic of the three, and in THAT sense it
> succeeded
> > (Except for the end).
>
> The ending was a little lame. I thought the ending was to much to be
> contuined. I really just wish they just finish the story and series. I
> really thought Von Glower was the most interesting villian ever. He
> isn't a villian in the usual sense. Gabriel Knight 3's 3D engine proves
> that 3D is the future for the genre. Still, I would love to see more 3D
> adventure games. It allows for so much freedom. The best character in
> GK3 was Grace Nakimura. She really stoled the show in that game. I
> think Jane Jensen should start a series off with Grace.
HEhe, we'll see.
Grimfarrow
Grimfarrow
Amit Shah wrote:
> >This is pure speculation. It was obvious she had some kind of revelation,
> >just like Gabe did at the tomb (you know, the whole Jesus/Roman soldier
> >bit). Perhaps, like Gabriel, she has a revelation about her own ancestry?
>
> I don't think so. She was talking about going to the monk the whole time in
> the game, and she looks at the picture. And there's no indication of her
> ancestral roots being involved in the game.
Yes, there is. Watch the FMV again. Recall that there's a flash on GK's
forehead before he saw the whole Jesus/soldier scene. When Grace picked
up the pastcard (with the Lama or whatever), she also had a similar "flash".
If Gabriel saw his ancestry during that flash, then it's only reasonable to
assume that Grace's flash is also about her ancestry.
> Not quite. He still resents it, though he goes along with it. He doesn't
> exactly know why he has to do what he does until that vision at the end
> which gives him some insight as to how important the Schattenjager role
> really is.
He knew that the Schattenjager role is important a while ago. I mean, his
UNCLE sacrificed his life for it. I don't think it escapes GK at all as to
the importance of his role.
> >OR quasi-evil, like GK1 & 2. GK3 is the most simplistic of the three.
> >Malia and Von Glower are not "evil".
>
> You know, having every villain as "quasi-evil" just becomes cliched and
> boring after a while.
No it's not. The reason why GK1 & 2 are so good is because you become
attached to even the bad guys. They had just as much depth and personality,
and you feel that there's a lot more to the story. In fact, the tension between
Malia/Gabe and Von Glower/Gabe gives the game a lot of emotional content.
However, GK3 seems to be very "Dead" in terms of emotion (except for
Grace/Gabe). There are no other characters that you truly relate to. And,
just like in movies, if you don't care about the characters, it doesn't work.
> You can't believe that there aren't any purely good
> and evil forces out in the world.
Of course I do not. Remember, morality and labels such as "good" and "evil"
is a term that humans used. Nature is amoral, and to it, good and bad don't
exist. Nor do they exist for the universe. They only exist for humans because
we choose to accept its meaning.
Also, I do not believe in "absolute" In math, we all know nothing can be 100%
It's more like 99.99999999999999999......% You can never be exact. With
the same theory, you also cannot be absolute. Even the most evil person has
his/her redeeming quality. Look at Hitler: brilliant orator and strategist, but
also
insane and a mass murderer.
To say that there's absolute good/evil is an oversimplification of a highly
complex world.
> As for vampires, the whole reason they
> did transform was because of their greed and corruption. So their evil
> makes them who they are, unlike Von Glower and Malia. And the group was the
> important factor in GK3, not Montreaux specifically. He just happened to be
> the head of the vampires at the time. And there was still a danger that the
> other vampires would turn on him for the blood as their kind are not known
> for their loyalty.
But they are too intangible. A good villain is a villain that you recognize.
> >> But this time I
> >> think he's going to do it without Grace. Kind of like in GK1.
> >
> >HUH???? He *needed* Grace for GK1 as much as the others.
> >She did all the research, and rescued him from the marsh.
>
> Actually, he didn't rely on Grace as much as he does in GK2 and GK3. He had
> other people research for him too. He used Grace to get phone numbers,
> addresses, and old newspaper clippings of previous murders. And while she
> saved him, he also saved her at the end.
Yes, but the relationship between Grace and Gabe is the most important in
the game, even moreso than Malia/Gabe.
> >I *was* very ambitious.......except for the stereotyping of Montreaux and
> >the Indy-like ending. those are the very antithesis of ambitious.
>
> I'm not talking about ambitious in difficulty. I'm talking about it in
> terms of the scope of the story. And Montreaux was supposed to be a
> stereotype simply because his group is stereotypically evil. It's what made
> them transform from ordinary humans into more powerful beings. Their greed
> and corruption changed them. They would have to be evil anyway to seek out
> the blood of the descendants and steal it like that.
The game was never difficult.
The most evil of man still has a thorn of goodness.
> >It's called "responsibility to one's heritage"?
> >
>
> Which he does fulfill, but he still doesn't understand WHY it's so
> important.
I think he already saw from the previous two games that a person like
him is needed in this world. Otherwise, voodoo murders would go on,
and werewolves would still eat people.
> He takes it seriously, but with that vision at the end, he
> realizes that the Schattenjagers were ordained by God to fight evil. That's
> when he fully accepts his destiny. That's also when he accepts full
> responsibility. After he sees that vision, he's intent on telling Grace his
> feelings for her. He never decided until then.
No, Schattenjaegers were ordained by Jesus to help Jesus on one fateful day.
That day was done.
At least, that's the distinct impression from the FMV.
As for telling Grace, to me, it was apparent that he would have told Grace
after that case anyway, regardless of the whole "revelation". He said so
himself
during the course of the game. If you click on Grace to talk to her, one of his
response was that he wanted to finish the case first before talking to her about
their future.
> >He changed after he slept with Grace, not from that vision. Otherwise, why
> >does he says, "Mosely's right, she IS a babe" about Grace during the last
> >day????
>
> He's still unsure as I said above. He doesn't know what to do with Grace.
> It complicated their relationship, but he never even tried to really talk to
> Grace about his feelings for her. Because he was afraid to accept a
> responsibility like that. Until the vision at the end, he was unclear about
> a lot of things.
See above.
Grimfarrow
Charybdis
>
> I love the music too!
Agreed. Holmes is an excellent composer - I especially like the title
tracks for the three games.
- Richard
Laurent Pichler
> >The whole topic is full of spoilers. I'm sorry, though. I didn't mean to
> >spoil the game for anyone. I just assumed that only people who've finished
> >the game would actually read the posts under this topic
>
>
>
> Don't worry about it. If people don't understand that just by down
> loading this group, *something* might get spoiled, then they need to
> consider a new group. It happens. A person needs to learn to protect
> themselves.
Yes, but Spoilers should be Marked to make it easier.
But it wasn't that bad. Maybe my posting was too rude..
Laurent
Grimfarrow
Amit Shah wrote:
> >Yes, there is. Watch the FMV again. Recall that there's a flash on GK's
> >forehead before he saw the whole Jesus/soldier scene. When Grace picked
> >up the pastcard (with the Lama or whatever), she also had a similar
> "flash".
> >If Gabriel saw his ancestry during that flash, then it's only reasonable to
> >assume that Grace's flash is also about her ancestry.
>
> I think you and I have different interpretations of the ending then. Yes, I
> saw the same flash, but that flash could mean different things. No, it's
> not very reasonable to assume it involved Grace's ancestry. She's not of
> supernatural descent. She never was.
How do you know!?!?!?! Perhaps there IS something about her ancestry that
Jane never revealed.
> that picture wasn't supernatural in
> any way either. She didn't have a vision but some kind of understanding.
> She understood what she had to do. Which was to leave without Gabriel and
> train on her own. That's what I believe the flash meant. Also, I think the
> flash used is a technique for changing scenes and elapsed time as well.
No, it wasn't used for time lapse. Watch the ending again.
I agree that we have different opinions on this, but you can't just discount
possibilities out. The truth is, we don't know!
> >He knew that the Schattenjager role is important a while ago. I mean, his
> >UNCLE sacrificed his life for it. I don't think it escapes GK at all as to
> >the importance of his role.
>
> No, not really. In GK2, he had reservations of taking up the mantle of the
> schattenjager as well. He was pretty much pressured into taking the
> werewolf case. If you watch that scene, he looks uncomfortable with them
> asking him to take the case.
Of course he would be!
1) It's his first "real" case (ie, nothing to do with his past)
2) It's not like people don't get nervous about werewolves, if they exist!
3) The description fo the dead girl's family would make ME squirm too!
> He did take responsibility for the voodoo
> case, but not anything else. He still doesn't exactly believe in the
> schattenjager destiny although he pretty much goes wherever it leads him, so
> to speak. But at the end, you see that glint of revelation in his eye. He
> starts taking things a lot more seriously at the end.
See above. I think he was pretty serious a while ago.
> >No it's not. The reason why GK1 & 2 are so good is because you become
> >attached to even the bad guys. They had just as much depth and
> personality,
> >and you feel that there's a lot more to the story. In fact, the tension
> between
> >Malia/Gabe and Von Glower/Gabe gives the game a lot of emotional content.
> >However, GK3 seems to be very "Dead" in terms of emotion (except for
> >Grace/Gabe). There are no other characters that you truly relate to.
>
> Emilio is one. Only at the end of course, but he is still someone you feel
> sorry for. Maybe not you, but I felt sorry for him. And for the first
> time, the villain was not a certain individual exactly, but a group.
Ummm....What exactly is Dr. John and the rest of the hounfour?
> That's
> what was really different about this game. And the Gabriel/Grace
> relationship was emphasized in this game which compensated for the supposed
> lack of emotional involvement.
I think the relationship between them was actually more expressive in the
first one. In GK3, they didn't NEARLY communicate enough with each other,
except about the case. For most of it, they just go do their own thing:
Grace w/ Le Serpent Rouge, and Gabe on his baby hunt. In GK1, on ther other
hand, he asks her about her yoga and martial arts lesson. He asks her about
her faimly, and why she's in New Orleans. Etc.
So scratch that one out of the bag. Aside, from Gabe/Grace, which isn't
done as well as in GK1, what do we have in terms of involvement?
Nothing!
> Emotional involvement doesn't have to come
> always from the same place. It doesn't in GK3 which I think is a good
> thing. Also, the thing about a mystery is that you generally don't have
> anyone you can particularly relate to except for possibly the main
> characters. the rest of the characters are people who you briefly know and
> you're supposed to be able to intimately aquaint yourself with them.
This is true for a mystery game, but considering that this IS a Gabriel Knight
game,
the lack of it still is inexcusable.
> >Of course I do not. Remember, morality and labels such as "good" and
> "evil"
> >is a term that humans used. Nature is amoral, and to it, good and bad
> don't
> >exist. Nor do they exist for the universe. They only exist for humans
> because
> >we choose to accept its meaning.
> >Also, I do not believe in "absolute" In math, we all know nothing can be
> 100%
> >It's more like 99.99999999999999999......% You can never be exact. With
> >the same theory, you also cannot be absolute. Even the most evil person
> has
> >his/her redeeming quality. Look at Hitler: brilliant orator and
> strategist, but
> >also
> >insane and a mass murderer.
> >
> >To say that there's absolute good/evil is an oversimplification of a highly
> >complex world.
>
> Hitler may have been a brilliant orater and strategist, but that hardly
> counts for a redeeming quality in him.
Oh? Wouldn't YOU want to have those qualities? I do! It doesn't
"redeem" him, but you can't say he's complete evil! He single-handedly
lifted the whole of Germany from the depths of the Great Depression!
Why do you think his people loved him so much?
> He only used it for purpose of
> murdering Jews and conquering other lands. It depends on what those
> qualities are used for in my opinion.
If you think that's the only thing Hitler did, you have to really consult
the history books again. Granted, it's the most infamous thing he did,
and it is inexcusable, but he did much more than just kill people.
Prior to Hitler's ascension, Germany was broke, and had debts in the
millions. Inflation was incredible, with bread costing upwards of
100,000,000DM. Also, much of Germany was still destroyed from
WWI. From this, Hitler rebuilt the whole country to make it one of
the strongest countries in the world. It was so strong that it took an alliance
of countries like Russia, England and USA to beat it!
If that's not incredible, I dont' know what is!
It is truly sad that he of course dragged his country back to its condition
after WWI (actually it was WORSE than after WWI). Also, his people
suffered most dearly because of him. But he still isn't evil incarnate.
>
> >But they are too intangible. A good villain is a villain that you
> recognize.
>
> As I've said before, it's a different concept from the previous games. For
> me, I recognized that it wasn't an individual that was the bad guy in this
> game but a group.
See my comments about GK1.
> It was tangible to me, because I was able to accept that
> fact. It's a matter of different perspectives. there may not have been a
> history to the individual, but there was a history to the group. The
> individual was not immortal unlike Tetelo and Von Glower. He was not
> "cursed." He followed what his family taught him. If you didn't know he was
> a vampire, you might say he was a good guy. From the outside, it would look
> that way.
Where did you come up with that? It was pretty clear even at the beginning that
something is wrong with him. A lot of what you say is assumed. It was never
explicitly stated. And, as we both know, assumptions can be wrong.
Perhaps it would have been interesting if GRACE got involved with the villain
instead. I'd like to see that!
> But once you look in his house, you know he's obsessed with
> immortality just as his father was.
You didn't meet him AFTER you've been inside his house.
> >Yes, but the relationship between Grace and Gabe is the most important in
> >the game, even moreso than Malia/Gabe.
>
> In GK1? I don't think so. It was the relationship between Malia and Gabriel
> that was most important.
Well, of course, there would be no story w/o Malia. But what I'm saying is that
the relationship which the GAME presents to us the most clearly was Gabe/
Grace. That's what I was saying. Sorry if I was a bit misleading.
> >I think he already saw from the previous two games that a person like
> >him is needed in this world. Otherwise, voodoo murders would go on,
> >and werewolves would still eat people.
>
> there are other people that do the same thing he does. As for why his
> family is important and why his family was chosen is a question that would
> have been in his mind. Have you ever clicked the look icon on the Lost and
> Found box in the museum? Although not quite crucial to the game, it gives
> insight into his thoughts. He's resentful of what his life has become.
I thought he was just being a lazy prick ;)
> Why
> do you think that is, unless he doesn't fully understand why he's so special
> and why he has to continue fighting evil?
But the problem is, we DON'T know that he has to continue fighting evil.
Like I said, the scene w/ Jesus is clearly to me what the Schattenjaegers
were ordaiend to do: one of the bloodline (Gk, in this case), is to help Jesus.
Now, GK is done. He DOESN'T have to go on fighting. It's his choice
as to whether he still wants to do it or not.
I think this is the main point we're not agreeing on.
> >No, Schattenjaegers were ordained by Jesus to help Jesus on one fateful
> day.
> >That day was done.
> >At least, that's the distinct impression from the FMV.
>
> That's the impression you may have gotten, but that's not the impression I
> got. He's not done. He may now want to fight evil. Before, it was
> necessity that made him fight evil. It also was a time when he would try to
> shirk his responsibilities towards Grace and the Schattenjager role.
> Further proof would be that Jane Jensen still plans for a GK4. I hope one
> is made or it comes out in novel form, which is much more likely to happen
> than a game. But we'll see.
I completely disagree. But, as I have said, this is the main argument between
us.
> >As for telling Grace, to me, it was apparent that he would have told Grace
> >after that case anyway, regardless of the whole "revelation". He said so
> >himself
> >during the course of the game. If you click on Grace to talk to her, one
> of his
> >response was that he wanted to finish the case first before talking to her
> about
> >
> >their future.
>
> True, but do you honestly think he would have rushed to the hotel to tell
> her like he did?
Of course. He's been thinking about it for a long time! All the bar scenes w/
Mosely, even conversations with Mosely has Grace mentioned all the time!
It's, to me, clear that Grace is definitely very much on his mind.
> or that he would brush off Madeline?
See above.
> That vision helped
> clear things up for him about the way he feels and about what should be
> done.
I still don't agree. we just see it differently. I don't think the ending
provides
enough clues to reach this assumption.
> I don't doubt that he was going to confront her anyway, but the fact
> he brushes off Madeline and wants to talk to her immediately indicated that
> the vision helped him understand things that he was confused with. He never
> made up his mind until he saw that vision. I'm pretty sure of that.
Again, see above.
Grimfarrow
Amit Shah
>forehead before he saw the whole Jesus/soldier scene. When Grace picked
>up the pastcard (with the Lama or whatever), she also had a similar
"flash".
>If Gabriel saw his ancestry during that flash, then it's only reasonable to
>assume that Grace's flash is also about her ancestry.
I think you and I have different interpretations of the ending then. Yes, I
saw the same flash, but that flash could mean different things. No, it's
not very reasonable to assume it involved Grace's ancestry. She's not of
supernatural descent. She never was. that picture wasn't supernatural in
any way either. She didn't have a vision but some kind of understanding.
She understood what she had to do. Which was to leave without Gabriel and
train on her own. That's what I believe the flash meant. Also, I think the
flash used is a technique for changing scenes and elapsed time as well.
>He knew that the Schattenjager role is important a while ago. I mean, his
>UNCLE sacrificed his life for it. I don't think it escapes GK at all as to
>the importance of his role.
No, not really. In GK2, he had reservations of taking up the mantle of the
schattenjager as well. He was pretty much pressured into taking the
werewolf case. If you watch that scene, he looks uncomfortable with them
asking him to take the case. He did take responsibility for the voodoo
case, but not anything else. He still doesn't exactly believe in the
schattenjager destiny although he pretty much goes wherever it leads him, so
to speak. But at the end, you see that glint of revelation in his eye. He
starts taking things a lot more seriously at the end.
>> >OR quasi-evil, like GK1 & 2. GK3 is the most simplistic of the three.
>> >Malia and Von Glower are not "evil".
>>
>> You know, having every villain as "quasi-evil" just becomes cliched and
>> boring after a while.
>
>No it's not. The reason why GK1 & 2 are so good is because you become
>attached to even the bad guys. They had just as much depth and
personality,
>and you feel that there's a lot more to the story. In fact, the tension
between
>
>Malia/Gabe and Von Glower/Gabe gives the game a lot of emotional content.
>However, GK3 seems to be very "Dead" in terms of emotion (except for
>Grace/Gabe). There are no other characters that you truly relate to.
Emilio is one. Only at the end of course, but he is still someone you feel
sorry for. Maybe not you, but I felt sorry for him. And for the first
time, the villain was not a certain individual exactly, but a group. That's
what was really different about this game. And the Gabriel/Grace
relationship was emphasized in this game which compensated for the supposed
lack of emotional involvement. Emotional involvement doesn't have to come
always from the same place. It doesn't in GK3 which I think is a good
thing. Also, the thing about a mystery is that you generally don't have
anyone you can particularly relate to except for possibly the main
characters. the rest of the characters are people who you briefly know and
you're supposed to be able to intimately aquaint yourself with them.
And,
>just like in movies, if you don't care about the characters, it doesn't
work.
>
>> You can't believe that there aren't any purely good
>> and evil forces out in the world.
>
>Of course I do not. Remember, morality and labels such as "good" and
"evil"
>is a term that humans used. Nature is amoral, and to it, good and bad
don't
>exist. Nor do they exist for the universe. They only exist for humans
because
>we choose to accept its meaning.
>Also, I do not believe in "absolute" In math, we all know nothing can be
100%
>It's more like 99.99999999999999999......% You can never be exact. With
>the same theory, you also cannot be absolute. Even the most evil person
has
>his/her redeeming quality. Look at Hitler: brilliant orator and
strategist, but
>also
>insane and a mass murderer.
>
>To say that there's absolute good/evil is an oversimplification of a highly
>complex world.
Hitler may have been a brilliant orater and strategist, but that hardly
counts for a redeeming quality in him. He only used it for purpose of
murdering Jews and conquering other lands. It depends on what those
qualities are used for in my opinion.
>> As for vampires, the whole reason they
>> did transform was because of their greed and corruption. So their evil
>> makes them who they are, unlike Von Glower and Malia. And the group was
the
>> important factor in GK3, not Montreaux specifically. He just happened to
be
>> the head of the vampires at the time. And there was still a danger that
the
>> other vampires would turn on him for the blood as their kind are not
known
>> for their loyalty.
>
>But they are too intangible. A good villain is a villain that you
recognize.
As I've said before, it's a different concept from the previous games. For
me, I recognized that it wasn't an individual that was the bad guy in this
game but a group. It was tangible to me, because I was able to accept that
fact. It's a matter of different perspectives. there may not have been a
history to the individual, but there was a history to the group. The
individual was not immortal unlike Tetelo and Von Glower. He was not
"cursed." He followed what his family taught him. If you didn't know he was
a vampire, you might say he was a good guy. From the outside, it would look
that way. But once you look in his house, you know he's obsessed with
immortality just as his father was.
>
>> >> But this time I
>> >> think he's going to do it without Grace. Kind of like in GK1.
>> >
>> >HUH???? He *needed* Grace for GK1 as much as the others.
>> >She did all the research, and rescued him from the marsh.
>>
>> Actually, he didn't rely on Grace as much as he does in GK2 and GK3. He
had
>> other people research for him too. He used Grace to get phone numbers,
>> addresses, and old newspaper clippings of previous murders. And while
she
>> saved him, he also saved her at the end.
>
>Yes, but the relationship between Grace and Gabe is the most important in
>the game, even moreso than Malia/Gabe.
In GK1? I don't think so. It was the relationship between Malia and Gabriel
that was most important.
>
>> >I *was* very ambitious.......except for the stereotyping of Montreaux
and
>> >the Indy-like ending. those are the very antithesis of ambitious.
>>
>> I'm not talking about ambitious in difficulty. I'm talking about it in
>> terms of the scope of the story. And Montreaux was supposed to be a
>> stereotype simply because his group is stereotypically evil. It's what
made
>> them transform from ordinary humans into more powerful beings. Their
greed
>> and corruption changed them. They would have to be evil anyway to seek
out
>> the blood of the descendants and steal it like that.
>
>The game was never difficult.
>The most evil of man still has a thorn of goodness.
>
>> >It's called "responsibility to one's heritage"?
>> >
>>
>> Which he does fulfill, but he still doesn't understand WHY it's so
>> important.
>
>I think he already saw from the previous two games that a person like
>him is needed in this world. Otherwise, voodoo murders would go on,
>and werewolves would still eat people.
there are other people that do the same thing he does. As for why his
family is important and why his family was chosen is a question that would
have been in his mind. Have you ever clicked the look icon on the Lost and
Found box in the museum? Although not quite crucial to the game, it gives
insight into his thoughts. He's resentful of what his life has become. Why
do you think that is, unless he doesn't fully understand why he's so special
and why he has to continue fighting evil?
>> He takes it seriously, but with that vision at the end, he
>> realizes that the Schattenjagers were ordained by God to fight evil.
That's
>> when he fully accepts his destiny. That's also when he accepts full
>> responsibility. After he sees that vision, he's intent on telling Grace
his
>> feelings for her. He never decided until then.
>
>No, Schattenjaegers were ordained by Jesus to help Jesus on one fateful
day.
>That day was done.
>At least, that's the distinct impression from the FMV.
That's the impression you may have gotten, but that's not the impression I
got. He's not done. He may now want to fight evil. Before, it was
necessity that made him fight evil. It also was a time when he would try to
shirk his responsibilities towards Grace and the Schattenjager role.
Further proof would be that Jane Jensen still plans for a GK4. I hope one
is made or it comes out in novel form, which is much more likely to happen
than a game. But we'll see.
>
>As for telling Grace, to me, it was apparent that he would have told Grace
>after that case anyway, regardless of the whole "revelation". He said so
>himself
>during the course of the game. If you click on Grace to talk to her, one
of his
>
>response was that he wanted to finish the case first before talking to her
about
>
>their future.
True, but do you honestly think he would have rushed to the hotel to tell
her like he did? or that he would brush off Madeline? That vision helped
clear things up for him about the way he feels and about what should be
done. I don't doubt that he was going to confront her anyway, but the fact
he brushes off Madeline and wants to talk to her immediately indicated that
the vision helped him understand things that he was confused with. He never
made up his mind until he saw that vision. I'm pretty sure of that.
>> >He changed after he slept with Grace, not from that vision. Otherwise,
Ilia 'Berserker Bushi'
> > Hitler may have been a brilliant orater and strategist, but that hardly
> > counts for a redeeming quality in him.
>
> Oh? Wouldn't YOU want to have those qualities? I do! It doesn't
> "redeem" him, but you can't say he's complete evil! He single-handedly
> lifted the whole of Germany from the depths of the Great Depression!
> Why do you think his people loved him so much?
Just because "People" loved him it doesn't make him such a great man. Ingorance and
lies always have been used to influence people. Observe Stalin and what he did to
his own country, and yet *everybody* loved HIM. And i mean everybody. And even
though he created a strong country with unmatched power and did many other
beneficial things, this is not why he was loved. And niether becuase he was a great
general or something like that. It was fear that was driving people. And after what
he did to his counry which is safe to say is more then what Hitler did, (regardless
of the final result right now) still if the people had option i'm sure that they
would rather stayed ignorant without the price to pay for Stalin's ruling.
Ilia
Grimfarrow
Ilia 'Berserker Bushi' wrote:
> Just because "People" loved him it doesn't make him such a great man. Ingorance and
> lies always have been used to influence people. Observe Stalin and what he did to
> his own country, and yet *everybody* loved HIM. And i mean everybody.
Of course, if you don't, you die ;) Same with Hitler. It's called unconditional love,
because there are no other conditions except to love them!
> And even
> though he created a strong country with unmatched power and did many other
> beneficial things, this is not why he was loved.
This is true, but I'm sure people *did* like in though for helping to turn around.
Of course, his brilliant propagada helped too.
> And niether becuase he was a great
> general or something like that. It was fear that was driving people
Not only fear though. Fear may be a part of it, but it really isn't the ONLY
driving factor. People really *did* love him, from a combination of both
propaganda and also his achievements in bringing Germany back to its feet.
> . And after what
> he did to his counry which is safe to say is more then what Hitler did, (regardless
> of the final result right now) still if the people had option i'm sure that they
> would rather stayed ignorant without the price to pay for Stalin's ruling.
Ummm...Sorry, but I have no clue what you are saying here in this last statement.
It's too run-on and confusing.
Grimfarrow
>
> Ilia
Amit Shah
insight into the characters and stuff. I really think you're reaching with
Grace's ancestry. She's not supernatural and she never was. She wants to
be a Schattenjager though. But she can't. In GK2, you even get that notion
that she considers herself a Schattenjager. When the Smiths come to Schloss
Ritter and Grace answers "We are..... er, I mean he is?" (something like
that) you get that feeling she wants to be like Gabriel. But she isn't.
The only way for her to do that is to follow her own destiny which is to be
trained by the monk.
>How do you know!?!?!?! Perhaps there IS something about her ancestry that
>Jane never revealed.
>
>> that picture wasn't supernatural in
>> any way either. She didn't have a vision but some kind of understanding.
>> She understood what she had to do. Which was to leave without Gabriel
and
>> train on her own. That's what I believe the flash meant. Also, I think
the
>> flash used is a technique for changing scenes and elapsed time as well.
>No, it wasn't used for time lapse. Watch the ending again.
It was used as a way to change the scene though. Not to mention as an
indicator for revelation by the character in question. It wasn't used
strictly to show a vision. That much I'm pretty sure of.
>I agree that we have different opinions on this, but you can't just
discount
>possibilities out. The truth is, we don't know!
Sure, there are different possibilities. But what you're suggesting is a
little farfetched from the storyline. Go play GK1, GK2, and GK3 all over
again. I really think you need to. Grace is not supernatural in any way,
but she can be psychically in tune with the spirits probably if she trains
with Chadrel. Although there are different interpretations, what you're
suggesting doesn't take into account any and all the facts you learn in the
game.
>> >He knew that the Schattenjager role is important a while ago. I mean,
his
>> >UNCLE sacrificed his life for it. I don't think it escapes GK at all as
to
>> >the importance of his role.
>>
>> No, not really. In GK2, he had reservations of taking up the mantle of
the
>> schattenjager as well. He was pretty much pressured into taking the
>> werewolf case. If you watch that scene, he looks uncomfortable with them
>> asking him to take the case.
>Of course he would be!
>1) It's his first "real" case (ie, nothing to do with his past)
>2) It's not like people don't get nervous about werewolves, if they exist!
>3) The description fo the dead girl's family would make ME squirm too!
Yeah, it did make him squirm. But he didn't BELIEVE they were real
werewolves. Just zoo wolves. Until later, that is. So he didn't feel
obligated to take the case except when they confronted him. That question:
"Are you the schattenjager, or are you not?" was the one thing that drove
him to say he'll take the case. And you see him uncomfortably saying "I
am." He doesn't want to take the case, but all those people looking at him
as well as Gerde pretty much forced him to accept the case.
>> He did take responsibility for the voodoo
>> case, but not anything else. He still doesn't exactly believe in the
>> schattenjager destiny although he pretty much goes wherever it leads him,
so
>> to speak. But at the end, you see that glint of revelation in his eye.
He
>> starts taking things a lot more seriously at the end.
>
>See above. I think he was pretty serious a while ago.
Same argument as above. Yes, he was serious about the CASES he takes, but
he doesn't take the Schattenjager role as something other than an
obligation. That vision helps him to clear up the conflicting emotions in
himself. Why else do you think he had that vision? It wasn't just because
it was his destiny to rescue the Kenosh Kania. It was because he NEEDED
that vision as a way of understanding his place and role in the world.
>
>> >No it's not. The reason why GK1 & 2 are so good is because you become
>> >attached to even the bad guys. They had just as much depth and
>> personality,
>> >and you feel that there's a lot more to the story. In fact, the tension
>> between
>> >Malia/Gabe and Von Glower/Gabe gives the game a lot of emotional
content.
>> >However, GK3 seems to be very "Dead" in terms of emotion (except for
>> >Grace/Gabe). There are no other characters that you truly relate to.
>>
>> Emilio is one. Only at the end of course, but he is still someone you
feel
>> sorry for. Maybe not you, but I felt sorry for him. And for the first
>> time, the villain was not a certain individual exactly, but a group.
>
>Ummm....What exactly is Dr. John and the rest of the hounfour?
Yeah, that was a group. Dr. John and the rest of the hounfour were mortal
by the way. The only immortal being was Tetelo the spirit. The vampires in
GK3 were all mortal. They didn't have much of a history. Their group did.
In GK1, the only being that mattered was Tetelo. In GK3, the whole blood
cult mattered. Montreaux just happened to be the one over Charlie, ready to
stab him.
>
>> That's
>> what was really different about this game. And the Gabriel/Grace
>> relationship was emphasized in this game which compensated for the
supposed
>> lack of emotional involvement.
>
>I think the relationship between them was actually more expressive in the
>first one. In GK3, they didn't NEARLY communicate enough with each other,
>except about the case. For most of it, they just go do their own thing:
>Grace w/ Le Serpent Rouge, and Gabe on his baby hunt. In GK1, on ther
other
>hand, he asks her about her yoga and martial arts lesson. He asks her
about
>her faimly, and why she's in New Orleans. Etc.
Those were extraneous details which weren't necessary to advance the plot in
any way. It only served to give an insight into the characters. Again, I
think you're really reaching with this one. They didn't take each other
seriously back then. In GK3 they do. They're partners in GK3. They
weren't in GK1. Grace was just Gabriel's storekeeper.
>So scratch that one out of the bag. Aside, from Gabe/Grace, which isn't
>done as well as in GK1, what do we have in terms of involvement?
>Nothing!
Again, in GK3 it's the Gabriel and Grace connection that was most important.
Aside from feeling sorry for Emilio, there is no other person you're
supposed to feel sorry for. We're not going to agree on this, but I really
think you're disregarding a lot of what happened in the first two games in
an effort to make your point with the third. In GK1, it was the Gabriel and
Malia connection that was emphasized. In GK2, it was Gabriel and Von
Glower.
>
>> Emotional involvement doesn't have to come
>> always from the same place. It doesn't in GK3 which I think is a good
>> thing. Also, the thing about a mystery is that you generally don't have
>> anyone you can particularly relate to except for possibly the main
>> characters. the rest of the characters are people who you briefly know
and
>> you're supposed to be able to intimately aquaint yourself with them.
>This is true for a mystery game, but considering that this IS a Gabriel
Knight
>game,
>the lack of it still is inexcusable.
GK3 IS a mystery game. It's more, but you're disregarding the whole
emotional connection between the protagonists which isn't common in most
mystery games.
Sorry, I disregarded a lot of Hitler's accomplishments in order to make a
point. However, Montreaux's intentions are evil. Is it really necessary to
show his good side? Outside of his house, he is just an ordinary man.
Polite and charming. That's the impression Gabriel gets from talking to
him. So it would only be natural to assume that he is the same with
everyone else. We know that it's a facade though. His intentions are
purely evil. For the purpose of gaining power and immortality, he'd do
anything. No matter how evil it may be. Does that make him completely
evil? There are people who resort to murder to fulfill their goals. How is
Montreaux any different? He's a man who happens to be a vampire and he wants
to take over the world and live forever. That's a vampire's goal. That's
really the only difference between him and any ordinary man.
>>
>> >But they are too intangible. A good villain is a villain that you
>> recognize.
>>
>> As I've said before, it's a different concept from the previous games.
For
>> me, I recognized that it wasn't an individual that was the bad guy in
this
>> game but a group.
>
>See my comments about GK1.
>
>> It was tangible to me, because I was able to accept that
>> fact. It's a matter of different perspectives. there may not have been
a
>> history to the individual, but there was a history to the group. The
>> individual was not immortal unlike Tetelo and Von Glower. He was not
>> "cursed." He followed what his family taught him. If you didn't know he
was
>> a vampire, you might say he was a good guy. From the outside, it would
look
>> that way.
>
>Where did you come up with that? It was pretty clear even at the beginning
that
>
>something is wrong with him. A lot of what you say is assumed. It was
never
>explicitly stated. And, as we both know, assumptions can be wrong.
You're assuming Grace's ancestry is involved even though there is no such
indication. However, I get all my assumptions from what is actually implied
in the game. Really, just play the game again and pay attention to what the
characters say. A lot of what I'm saying here is implied in the game. They
aren't groundless assumptions.
>Perhaps it would have been interesting if GRACE got involved with the
villain
>instead. I'd like to see that!
>
>> But once you look in his house, you know he's obsessed with
>> immortality just as his father was.
>
>You didn't meet him AFTER you've been inside his house.
What do you mean? Grace hides in the closet with Montreaux's cult robes.
Montreaux comes up the stairs and is about to open the closet, then is
diverted by Madeline's voice. Then he goes out. Grace comes out of the
closet, looks at everything, goes down, and sees that painting. There's a
picture of Montreaux with a picture of the holy grail and a man in his eye.
He has a book where the blood cult was tracking the Wandering Jew's every
move. He has books on immortality and wine. All these indicate he's
seeking immortality. Gabriel talks to him later on. And you find out
everything that Montreaux knows about wine comes from his father. But they
associate wine with blood which they want to gain immortality.
>
>> >Yes, but the relationship between Grace and Gabe is the most important
in
>> >the game, even moreso than Malia/Gabe.
>>
>> In GK1? I don't think so. It was the relationship between Malia and
Gabriel
>> that was most important.
>Well, of course, there would be no story w/o Malia. But what I'm saying is
that
>
>the relationship which the GAME presents to us the most clearly was Gabe/
>Grace. That's what I was saying. Sorry if I was a bit misleading.
Sorry, but the game doesn't present a relationship between Gabriel and Grace
other than the employer/employee relationship and maybe friend to friend
relationship. I don't think you should regard the fact that you see more of
Gabriel with Grace than Gabriel with Malia as an indication that there is an
actual relationship between Gabriel and Grace that is key to the game in any
way.
>I thought he was just being a lazy prick ;)
That's only part of it. He didn't want the responsibility, and he has
conflicted feelings toward taking over the Schattenjager role. It
completely destroyed his social life. He's secluded in a castle with 2
women for a whole year. Don't you think he would resent the way his life
turned out? And wouldn't he question why he had to be there?
>> Why
>> do you think that is, unless he doesn't fully understand why he's so
special
>> and why he has to continue fighting evil?
>
>But the problem is, we DON'T know that he has to continue fighting evil.
>Like I said, the scene w/ Jesus is clearly to me what the Schattenjaegers
>were ordaiend to do: one of the bloodline (Gk, in this case), is to help
Jesus.
>Now, GK is done. He DOESN'T have to go on fighting. It's his choice
>as to whether he still wants to do it or not.
That's only one thing he was destined to do. I don't think Jesus meant
until you rescue a descendant of mine, you should continue fighting evil.
In any case, I don't think he has to fight evil. But I think he does want
to now. He wants to be a Schattenjager. I do know that Jane Jensen doesn't
intend for the series to end here, so Gabriel is going to continue fighting
evil.
>
>I think this is the main point we're not agreeing on.
>
>> >No, Schattenjaegers were ordained by Jesus to help Jesus on one fateful
>> day.
>> >That day was done.
>> >At least, that's the distinct impression from the FMV.
>>
>> That's the impression you may have gotten, but that's not the impression
I
>> got. He's not done. He may now want to fight evil. Before, it was
>> necessity that made him fight evil. It also was a time when he would try
to
>> shirk his responsibilities towards Grace and the Schattenjager role.
>> Further proof would be that Jane Jensen still plans for a GK4. I hope
one
>> is made or it comes out in novel form, which is much more likely to
happen
>> than a game. But we'll see.
>I completely disagree. But, as I have said, this is the main argument
between
>us.
I think you should read my statement again. I'm saying he may be done with
one destiny, now he has an opportunity to choose his path. To still fight
evil, or to lead a normal life. But since Jane Jensen has plans for a GK4,
I'd say he chooses to still fight evil.
>> >As for telling Grace, to me, it was apparent that he would have told
Grace
>> >after that case anyway, regardless of the whole "revelation". He said
so
>> >himself
>> >during the course of the game. If you click on Grace to talk to her,
one
>> of his
>> >response was that he wanted to finish the case first before talking to
her
>> about
>> >
>> >their future.
>>
>> True, but do you honestly think he would have rushed to the hotel to tell
>> her like he did?
>
>Of course. He's been thinking about it for a long time! All the bar scenes
w/
>Mosely, even conversations with Mosely has Grace mentioned all the time!
>It's, to me, clear that Grace is definitely very much on his mind.
There's no doubt that it's on his mind. But that doesn't mean he knows
what he wants. He's conflicted. that vision helps him clear things up.
Again, this is an assumption that I think is pretty safe to make. As for my
reasons, I've discussed it earlier in this post.
>
>> or that he would brush off Madeline?
>
>See above.
>
>> That vision helped
>> clear things up for him about the way he feels and about what should be
>> done.
>
>I still don't agree. we just see it differently. I don't think the ending
>provides
>enough clues to reach this assumption.
>
>> I don't doubt that he was going to confront her anyway, but the fact
>> he brushes off Madeline and wants to talk to her immediately indicated
that
>> the vision helped him understand things that he was confused with. He
never
>> made up his mind until he saw that vision. I'm pretty sure of that.
>
>Again, see above.
Likewise
>
>Grimfarrow
>
Charybdis
> come up with it, or was she "hired" to write the story and given a
> theme? Can Jane market a game or novel and advertise, "In the style of
> GK."? How far would Sierra's rights inhibit her? Lastly, if there was
> money to be made by *all* parties, wouldn't it be foolish to not allow
> another game to be made?
Bluntly, Sierra owns the right to the series - therefore nobody else can
write a Gabriel Knight game. It's no different to LucasArts owning the
rights to Monkey Island and therefore being able to write Curse without
Gilbert's involvement. However IIRC she has the rights to use the
characters for novels.
- Richard
Laurent Pichler
> Of course he would be!
> 1) It's his first "real" case (ie, nothing to do with his past)
> 2) It's not like people don't get nervous about werewolves, if they exist!
> 3) The description fo the dead girl's family would make ME squirm too!
(...)
Just btw:
There was a logical error in the beginning scene of GK2. First, the man
says "I saw his eyes! He know what he was doing!", but then he says that
the wolf had already left when he found the dead girl.
> Ummm....What exactly is Dr. John and the rest of the hounfour?
The hounfour was destroyed.
Laurent
--
Erst wenn der letzte nicht-Aoler lobotomisiert wurde, werdet Ihr
feststellen, das niemand mehr die Videorecorder bedienen kann.
--Dietz Proepper in <7esqc1$j4c$23....@rotfl.franken.de>
Laurent Pichler
> I remember the rumors of what GK3 is going to be. I think I remember a
> title saying Someone's Pregnant? I think another title was Ancient
> Chinese Ghosts. I really would like Jane Jensen started a series with
> Grace Nakimura. She's a great character. She's the best female
> protaganist ever. She's complex and very clever. I think I would like
> the next GK to be set in Tibet or China. I think Grace is going where
> Chadrel Gyatso is. I rather would see Jane Jensen design a new game
> series rather than a Gabriel Knight 4. All we have seen of her is
> designing Gabriel Knight games.
Scotland would be IMO very good for the "ghost" theme! Imagine an old
castle with ghosts, spiderwebs and a secret area in the cellar...
The next game should take place in Scotland!
--
NT = Neanderthal Technology
Laurent Pichler
> > No we don't. He complained about stuff I don't care about, like
> > real-time, the ability to miss clues and still continue, and the
> interface.
>
> I agree with some of your opinions. I love real-time. I don't mind
> missing clues per se. The interface of GK3 is really good. I liked it
> better than that of Grim Fandango.
Actually, the thing why I don't like the Last Express is the real time.
It's not even RT, but it's faster (Lock at the clock in the game) !
If you don't exactly do what the game desginers want you to, and if you
miss too much, you cannot continue the game. (In GK you can always
explore as much as you like, and don't need to haste through the things.
Of course you also have to do what the game designers want you to do,
but you can, for example, read a document to the end with whatever
speed you want).
Of course it's also quite fascinating to be able to _wait_ for a
specific thing, more like in Real Life.
I think a good solution would be to be able to slow down and even stop
the time in the game.
bye,
Laurent
Btw.. I *love* Usenet!
--
Boycott Microsoft - NOW!
Knight37
I don't remember how big the normal install was.
You use disk 1 as an install disk and then never need it again. So whatever
fits on that. Maybe around 500 mb?
After install I then copied ALL of CD's 2, 3, and 4 to the HD and then edited
the .ini file so it looks on the HD for all data. The only CD I need is disc 2
for copy prot check (and if I find a crack for that I'll get rid of that
annoyance too). I'm currently using about 2.5 gb of space for PST.
My opinion is that the game plays a lot better with all the stuff installed.
Less waiting on loads between going to different areas. You have to jump around
to different areas a lot, and every little bit of speed helps when you're
spending many hours on a game anyway. :) It was certainly playable without it,
but I prefer to have the quicker loads, since overall it's going to save me a
lot of precious game time.
PST is the first game I've done this for, since usually I don't like a game
well enough to devote that much space to optimize it, but in PST's case, it's
so good that I want to play it almost exclusively and didn't mind uninstalling
a lot of other games to get the free space. Pretty much the only other game I'm
playing now is Q3 for that deathmatch rush. :)
--
Knight37
"This is your life.
Good to the last drop.
Doesn't get any better than this.
This is your life,
and it's ending one minute at a time." -- Tyler Durden
Grimfarrow
Laurent Pichler wrote:
> > Ummm....What exactly is Dr. John and the rest of the hounfour?
>
> The hounfour was destroyed.
Umm... The was my point; that they are a group.
> Laurent
>
> --
> Erst wenn der letzte nicht-Aoler lobotomisiert wurde, werdet Ihr
> feststellen, das niemand mehr die Videorecorder bedienen kann.
> --Dietz Proepper in <7esqc1$j4c$23....@rotfl.franken.de>
Lol!
Grimfarrow
Grimfarrow
J & J wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Dec 1999 15:43:44 -0800, Grimfarrow <rpha...@calpoly.edu>
> wrote:
>
> <snippage>
> >Wishful thinking. Sierra owns the right to GK. If they don't want another
> >novel, they just say to Jane that she can't do one.
> >
> Exactly how does all that work? Whose idea was GK originally?
Jane's
> Did Jane come up with it, or was she "hired" to write the story and given a
> theme?
No, it was Jane's all along, the characters, plot, etc.
> Can Jane market a game or novel and advertise, "In the style of
> GK."
> ?
Yes, if Sierra gives the permission to Jane to use the name GK (even
if Jane metions the name only in passing).
> how far would Sierra's rights inhibit her?
Very far, at least in terms of anything GK related.
> Lastly, if there was
> money to be made by *all* parties, wouldn't it be foolish to not allow
> another game to be made?
Well, adventure games are supposedly "dead". To Sierra, there's no
money to be made.
> I just can't get all these copyright laws straight in my head. I hate
> that Jane's ideas aren't her own, if you get my drift.
But they are. They've always been hers. But it's Sierra who
owns the copyrights.
Grimfarrow
>
> Julia
> --"This wasn't in the brochure."--Billy Crystal
Laurent Pichler
> > > Ummm....What exactly is Dr. John and the rest of the hounfour?
> >
> > The hounfour was destroyed.
>
> Umm... The was my point; that they are a group.
Uh... where do you know that from? They didn't reappear in GK2, and the
destruction of the hounfour was at the very end.. Are they still a
danger ? <g>
--
(*) 'Windows 95,' 'Microsoft Network,' and 'Bill Gates' are registered
trademarks of Microsoft Inc.
--Infoocon in alt.religion.kibology
toon...@my-deja.com
Amit, How do you know, Grace isn't of Supernatural descent? In fact
Gabriel Knight isn't of supernatural descent and so is Grace. Gabriel
was chosen by Jesus to be a saviour of the light. I thought the Rennes
Le Chateau mystery would have made Gabriel Knight related to Jesus.
Then that would have prove that GK is supernatural.
toon...@my-deja.com
"Amit Shah" <as...@optonline.net> wrote:
> Go play GK2 again. The Tarot reading is something that gives a lot of
> insight into the characters and stuff. I really think you're
reaching with
> Grace's ancestry. She's not supernatural and she never was. She
wants to
> be a Schattenjager though. But she can't. In GK2, you even get that
notion
> that she considers herself a Schattenjager. When the Smiths come to
Schloss
> Ritter and Grace answers "We are..... er, I mean he is?" (something
like
> that) you get that feeling she wants to be like Gabriel. But she
isn't.
Grace is Japanese-American. So Don't forget that she's Buddist. Her
Ethnicity and Ancesery are very important to Grace. I really don't
think either Gabriel and Grace are of supernautral descent. Don't forge
that before Jesus told Gabriel's ancestor that you are the servant of
the light. Before that ancestor, none of Gabriel's ancestors were
supernatural.
If you believe the tarot reading. Grace in GK2 was exploring her male
side. That is why she got agressive at Gerde because she was being
territorial over Gabriel. Gabriel was appealing to his spiritual side.
Note that the Hebrew word, rumah is sprit. It has a feminine gender.
That means that woman are closer to theire spiritual side. Gabriel was
exploring is female side and Grace her male side. GK2 was a very
interesting game. The character in both GK1 and GK2 were very
interesting. You cared about them. I didn't pretty much care for any of
the characters of GK3 except Grace and Gabriel. The same works for The
Last Express. If you care about the characters, the game works very
well. If you don't, it falls. That is probaly why I never liked Myst
and games that have no characters with the exception of Buried in Time.
Also, I don't remember the entire tarot reading.
toon...@my-deja.com
Why do all Adventure game series have to take place in Europe? I would
mind an Adventure game done in Russia. If I ever design one, I would
lean more towards the Middle East, Asian, Africa, and South America.
toon...@my-deja.com
>
> Actually, the thing why I don't like the Last Express is the real
time.
> It's not even RT, but it's faster (Lock at the clock in the game) !
Sorry about that error. I meant semi real-time. If TLE was in real-
time. The game would be so boring. This game has some boring bits and
pieces. I would love to see another game trying real-time again.
> If you don't exactly do what the game desginers want you to, and if
you
> miss too much, you cannot continue the game. (In GK you can always
> explore as much as you like, and don't need to haste through the
things.
> Of course you also have to do what the game designers want you to do,
> but you can, for example, read a document to the end with whatever
> speed you want).
The problem with TLE is that the game won't let you go further after a
certain point. It probaly would be best to keep the game going no
matter what the player did. TLE is quite a complex game. It must of
have been very hard to make considering all the programing and
character logic. It isn't an Adventure game in the usual sense.
> Of course it's also quite fascinating to be able to _wait_ for a
> specific thing, more like in Real Life.
> I think a good solution would be to be able to slow down and even stop
> the time in the game.
Probaly so like in an RPG. Good idea, Laurent.
Charybdis
> mind an Adventure game done in Russia. If I ever design one, I would
> lean more towards the Middle East, Asian, Africa, and South America.
What about KGB/Conspiracy? Spycraft (to some extent), Big Red
Adventure....there aren't many but there are a few. And there have been
others in China and Japan. The main problem is that the Russian computer
industry has always been extremely backward (not technically - because of
the culture. Alexei Patijinov (and I'm sure that's misspelled) commented on
Tetris that if a game actually got submitted to publishers was based mostly
on whether or not the mailmen liked it - although that's not quite the
situation ATM and there are a few Russian developers currently working on
games - mostly flight sims though).
- Richard
ocean
<toon...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:850n11$orq$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> >
> > The next game should take place in Scotland!
>
There are two adventure games that take place in Russia.
O.
Josh Mandel
wrote:
There was also "The Third Courier" from Accolade, some years back.
--Josh
Laurent Pichler
> > Of course it's also quite fascinating to be able to _wait_ for a
> > specific thing, more like in Real Life.
> > I think a good solution would be to be able to slow down and even stop
> > the time in the game.
>
> Probaly so like in an RPG. Good idea, Laurent.
If that had been implemented in TLE, I would have (probably) been able
to play it w/o a walkthrough :-(
But besides from that, TLE was fascinating... I think I'll play it
again.
--
H. B. aus Newmarket, Ontario, Kanada meint:
Ich bin ein regelmaessiger und fleissiger Leser (und Anschauer) Ihrer
Web-Seite. Obwohl ich vor 45 Jahren nach Kanada auswanderte, finde ich
das "Bild On-Line" mir einen guten Kontakt mit der alten Heimat
darstellt. Natuerlich lasse ich keine Woche gehen, ohne die Traumfrau zu
waehlen.