11th hour lacks game design
ma...@online.tietokone.fi
>game is good or bad - I'm just impressed with the support. Wish every
>company cared this much about their customers.
I agree that Trilobyte's artists, musicians and technical support
personnel are all great. However they GAME DESIGNERS must have been all
alseep while making the game.
I reviewed the game for Pelit-magazine and have to say that I very much
disliked it. The game was all too slow (moving from place to place took
forever even if I interrupted the movement with 2nd mouse button). And
the puzzles were not any better. when moving chess pieces I nearly fell
asleep - the movement animation and sound they had to include slowed
down the action really much. The same slow-speed problem concerns every
puzzle I laid my hands on. Even the library's "swap books" puzzle, chas
register puzzle and was worst in mouse maza puzzle.
Then I have to say something about the puzzles. They are far too
difficult. I honestly spent A WEEK with 11th Hour and was unable to
solve any of the puzzles. The main problem was that there were no clear
explanation for few questions: 1) what is the goal of a puzzle 2) how
does the puzzle work.
The puzzle designers should have tested Sierra's good puzzle game The
Castle of Dr. Brain. It's puzzles were much easier and enjoyable
(mainly because there were good and clear explanations about what to do
and how to accomplish it).
One of the worst things was continous Stauf's voice bugging me. Every
damn time I tried to accomplish something Stauf told me that I was an
idiot. HEAR ME O' TRILOBYTE: I DO NOT WANT TO BE CALLED AS AN IDIOT
WHEN I PLAY ENERTAINMENT SOFTWARE!
At last but not least: the ending was really lame! I managed to get a
save game that allowed me to do "open house" and watched the movie from
beginning to end and was most disappointed with ending. No show on
Stauf getting killed? Just a stupid burning house. Thats all for what I
went trought? Some hero I am...
Thank you for listening Trilobyte. The graphics were nice and I hope
that in the next game you will think about playability too. You can
read the full story in Pelit issue 1/96
Yours
Ossi Mantylahti
ma...@online.tietokone.fi
Larry summers
ma...@online.tietokone.fi says...
Before we burn you at the stake, right after hanging, stabbing, cutting, and
otherwise abusing you, let me say many words.
First of all I am completely amazed that you have a job reviewing games.
Not that you do not know how to string words into a complete sentence.
Obviously you do have command of the English language. But the ability to
be a wordsmith does not judgement make.
I thought the game was great in exactly those areas where you found fault.
Now whose opinion is more valid? Yours because someone prints your
opinions, or mine, because I spend the money to back up what I think?
Notice the number of posts in this group. See the interest. Awaken to the
fact that what you like is not what everybody likes. A review to be valid
should have some organized criteria. What is yours? Now I will try to
answer that rhetorical question.
I suspect you like action games. So, go review Jet Fighter 17 1/2 or some
such. 11th hour is an adventure game, which means puzzles and riddles.
Your mind is not bent to either, apparently.
Please, this is not a flame. But in the face of your inability to solve any
of the puzzles, why are you reviewing adult adventure games? *none* of the
puzzles has taken me over 30 minutes to solve except the jewels, which was a
realy bitch. And I am not a rocket scientest.
A good many of the puzzles are easy, some medium, and some really hard, like
the furniture. This makes for a *great* game design, which by any criteria,
except yours, is exactly what 11th Hour is.
On top of that, the riddles. Ah, the riddles. Oh devious minds that
conjured up those. Arghhh. Gave me fits. But I don't buy a game to play
at the eighth grade level in 45 minutes. 11th Hours has provided me with
hours of playable adventure action, in the true spirit of 7th Guest, Return
to Zork, and Myst.
I like it.
But wait, there is more.
You spoke of the slow play. Ok, in some spots it is slow. The pieces move
on their own at a pace that could be called leisurely. Use that time to
exercise your brain to find a solution. As Stauf would most probably say.
That is what I did. Thinking between and during moves, that is, and it
worked. During play of one of the puzzles, the solution came to me while I
was watching a piece move. This was the train, which has given everyone
fits.
So the somewhat leisurely pace during play of puzzles served a purpose.
See how easy it is to justify a position if you like something!
The graphics were as good as it gets. State of the Art to put it mildly.
The actors in the movie were average except Stauf, who has one of those
absolutely great voices. Especially when serving up one of the great series
of insults.
Some people like Jerry Lewis, some Richard Pryor. To interject humour into a
game, what better humour genre than insults. While neither Lewis or Pryor,
insult humour is something that many people find funny, and in the case of
the 11th hour, somewhat wry, and in complete keeping with the plot. witness
the poll already underway to nominate the best insult. You do read what
people post here, don't you? (Gratuitous insult, sorry, I couldn't help
myself)
Yes, the 11th Hour has a plot. And a very convoluted and multi-dimensional
plot in point of fact. The very best plot associated with an adventure game
it has been my pleasure to play.
Ok, my conclusion is that the game is supurb in almost every respect.
Great Graphics.
Challenging puzzles
Great Riddles
Great Plot
A decent side bar movie that helps tie things together.
In conclusion, this is a great adventure game for adults. It fits the genre
of adventure games by any definition. And as such, much of your critisism
is invalid.
Again, this is not Jet Jockey 23. This is not a kiddie game. This is not a
game to be played in a night. The 11th Hour is a challenging, multi-faceted
adult adventure game with all the rewards, emotional and mental that you
would expect to find in a top rank game, which it is by every count.
I strongly recommend it to anyone who likes this type of game, and I spent
my money to back up my opinion.
I suspect some people are going to tear your head off. Please note that I
have made an effort to just point out that your temperment is obviously not
directed towards making a sound judgement of what is and isn't a good
adventure game.
I am sure that you realise your exposure when you admitted you couldn't
solve any of the puzzles. At least I hope you knew what you were doing.
Happy Holidays.
Larry Summers
---> Arghhh, Stauf is trying to make me say it. Teensy, little, bra.. Oh
no, stop don't make me say it. ;-)
Douglas P Marien
<ma...@online.tietokone.fi> wrote:
>I agree that Trilobyte's artists, musicians and technical support
>personnel are all great. However they GAME DESIGNERS must have been all
>alseep while making the game.
Hmm, that would make programming kinda hard, wouldn't it?
>I reviewed the game for Pelit-magazine and have to say that I very much
>disliked it. The game was all too slow (moving from place to place took
>forever even if I interrupted the movement with 2nd mouse button). And
>the puzzles were not any better. when moving chess pieces I nearly fell
>asleep - the movement animation and sound they had to include slowed
>down the action really much. The same slow-speed problem concerns every
>puzzle I laid my hands on. Even the library's "swap books" puzzle, chas
>register puzzle and was worst in mouse maza puzzle.
I find the speed just fine. It gives me time to think about my next move.
The only time I want it to go faster is when I know I am about to win
and I start yelling, "Move you damn train, MOVE!" :) To move about the
house faster you can open up the Map and click on the room where you wish
to go and then you will just go to that room.
>Then I have to say something about the puzzles. They are far too
>difficult. I honestly spent A WEEK with 11th Hour and was unable to
>solve any of the puzzles. The main problem was that there were no clear
>explanation for few questions: 1) what is the goal of a puzzle 2) how
>does the puzzle work.
I am sorry that you couldn't solve any of the puzzles. There are some
people here who breazed through them finding it too easy, others are
still moving along at a steady pace. If you want to find out the goal
of the puzzle, you can always consult the Help in your Game Book. It
seems that you want a game to be hand fed to you on a silver platter,
with no serious cognitive thought on your part.
>The puzzle designers should have tested Sierra's good puzzle game The
>Castle of Dr. Brain. It's puzzles were much easier and enjoyable
>(mainly because there were good and clear explanations about what to do
>and how to accomplish it).
Sierra makes weak puzzle games, I stopped buying them because of it.
>One of the worst things was continous Stauf's voice bugging me. Every
>damn time I tried to accomplish something Stauf told me that I was an
>idiot. HEAR ME O' TRILOBYTE: I DO NOT WANT TO BE CALLED AS AN IDIOT
>WHEN I PLAY ENERTAINMENT SOFTWARE!
Umm, whatever, go back to your politcally correct Sierra games. Stauf
is supposed to be evil and the house is alive. Do you expect it to
do nothing while you invade it's domain? Come on, grow up.
>At last but not least: the ending was really lame! I managed to get a
>save game that allowed me to do "open house" and watched the movie from
>beginning to end and was most disappointed with ending. No show on
>Stauf getting killed? Just a stupid burning house. Thats all for what I
>went trought? Some hero I am...
Speaking of endings, was Myst's ending any better? "Thank you, blah blah
go and explore blah blah." Gag, that was the most disappointing ending.
You didn't go through anything to get to the end, you grabbed the saved
game and watched the movie. Even though you spent a week on the game
you probably never made it to the second CD worth of puzzles.
So, in the end, I would sum up your review of the game as a superficial look
at The 11th Hour. Your inability to solve the puzzles doesn't mean that
everybody else in the world is as intellectually crippled as you. You
should have at least started your post by saying :
The following is completely MY own opinion.
--
Doug Marien | "[DOS] sucks dead bunnies
sl...@acm.cs.umn.edu | through a bent straw."
http://acm.cs.umn.edu/~slug/ | -Paul Close
Life's Short. Slug Hard. +
Volker Seitz
>>Ossi Mantylahti
>>ma...@online.tietokone.fi
>>
>>
>>
>I like it.
>Happy Holidays.
>Larry Summers
Hey Larry, its me, Volker. Hope my hint helped you solving one
treasure hunt!
I agree in all of your positions. This monkey named Olli is really no
adventure reviewer! Stauf give him the name IDIOT - and so he is.
We all like the 11th hour and don't want to hear such people talk
about OUR GAME. I 'm now on the 3rd CD and it was slow, but amacing!
I have solved all the puzzles up to here and I liked the difficulty of
them.
Back to Olli. Please be fired out of this review-job, because you're
not capable to fill it out!
Merry Christmass afterwards.
Volker Seitz
Richard Sensale
says...
>
>In article <msg2361....@online.tietokone.fi>,
> <ma...@online.tietokone.fi> wrote:
>>I agree that Trilobyte's artists, musicians and technical support
>>personnel are all great. However they GAME DESIGNERS must have
been all
>>alseep while making the game.
>
>Hmm, that would make programming kinda hard, wouldn't it?
Yeh and it shows in the games utter lack of overall quality. Not to
mention it being about as reliable as the post office meaning not very.
From what I saw at a friends house the puzzles are either interminably
stupid and slow, or far too easy depending on how much of gamer you are.
My friend solved it in ONE NIGHT.... Seems you guys have slipped a bit.
7th guest was much better.
>>The puzzle designers should have tested Sierra's good puzzle game The
>>Castle of Dr. Brain. It's puzzles were much easier and enjoyable
>>(mainly because there were good and clear explanations about what to
do
>>and how to accomplish it).
>
>Sierra makes weak puzzle games, I stopped buying them because of it.
>
>>One of the worst things was continous Stauf's voice bugging me. Every
>>damn time I tried to accomplish something Stauf told me that I was an
>>idiot. HEAR ME O' TRILOBYTE: I DO NOT WANT TO BE
CALLED AS AN IDIOT
>>WHEN I PLAY ENERTAINMENT SOFTWARE!
>
>Umm, whatever, go back to your politcally correct Sierra games. Stauf
>is supposed to be evil and the house is alive. Do you expect it to
>do nothing while you invade it's domain? Come on, grow up.
>
Staufs voice is both insult9ing and irritating especially when he says the
same thing over and over and over again....
>>At last but not least: the ending was really lame! I managed to get a
>>save game that allowed me to do "open house" and watched the movie
from
AGREED 100%
>>beginning to end and was most disappointed with ending. No show on
>>Stauf getting killed? Just a stupid burning house. Thats all for what I
>>went trought? Some hero I am...
>
>Speaking of endings, was Myst's ending any better? "Thank you, blah
blah
>go and explore blah blah." Gag, that was the most disappointing ending.
>
>You didn't go through anything to get to the end, you grabbed the saved
>game and watched the movie. Even though you spent a week on the
game
>you probably never made it to the second CD worth of puzzles.
>
>So, in the end, I would sum up your review of the game as a superficial
look
>at The 11th Hour. Your inability to solve the puzzles doesn't mean that
>everybody else in the world is as intellectually crippled as you. You
>should have at least started your post by saying :
>The following is completely MY own opinion.
>
>--
>Doug Marien | "[DOS] sucks dead bunnies
>sl...@acm.cs.umn.edu | through a bent straw."
>http://acm.cs.umn.edu/~slug/ | -Paul Close
>Life's Short. Slug Hard. +
You just gotta work for virgin or trilobyte............
Pete Dubois
knock a game because they can't play it should sell their games and play
Solitaire or Hearts or Minesweeper. Let the rest of us INTELLIGENT adults
play games like The 7th Guest, Myst, Return to Zork, The 11th Hour!
I LOVE The 11th Hour! It's taken me a week to 1.> get the game to work. <I
have a Trident video card. Thanks to the fine staff of Trilobyte, finally got
it to work!>, 2.> Gotten to the end and can't beat the Pente game!
AAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHH!
Applause and kudos the the entire staff of Trilobyte for their EXCELLENT game
and EXCELLENT support! Thanks!
Pete Du Bois
a.k.a. "The SHADOW"
the...@vrb.com
Boise, ID
Richard Ellis
>Then I have to say something about the puzzles. They are far too
>difficult. I honestly spent A WEEK with 11th Hour and was unable to
>solve any of the puzzles. The main problem was that there were no clear
>explanation for few questions: 1) what is the goal of a puzzle 2) how
>does the puzzle work.
>
to figure out the object (or goal). THEN, you have to solve the puzzle!
In The 7th Guest, sometimes the tricky part was figuring out what the
object of the puzzle was, then once you knew that, it wasn't too
difficult. On other puzzles, it was easy to know what to do, yet
difficult to solve.
I think the puzzles are intriquing and challenging. If these type of
"logic puzzles" aren't your type, then fine admit THAT, but don't
criticize the game, just because you couldn't figure it out.
-Richard
btroyi
in your post you come off as a very uptight and frustrated
individual....perhaps my suggestion would allow imagination to function
again.
btroyi
KRF9...@uconnvm.uconn.edu
rel...@conline.com (Richard Ellis) writes:
>That is the whole point! First you have to play around with the puzzle
>to figure out the object (or goal). THEN, you have to solve the puzzle!
> In The 7th Guest, sometimes the tricky part was figuring out what the
>object of the puzzle was, then once you knew that, it wasn't too
>difficult. On other puzzles, it was easy to know what to do, yet
>difficult to solve.
>
>I think the puzzles are intriquing and challenging. If these type of
>"logic puzzles" aren't your type, then fine admit THAT, but don't
>criticize the game, just because you couldn't figure it out.
I thought that the puzzles in T7G (I have not played 11th Hour)
were fine- some were tough, but I like difficult games. I still did
not like T7G, however, for a slightly different reason. The puzzles
were as good as any you could find in GAMES magazine, but that is
really all there was to the game. Interesting gameplay in the form
of storyline, exploration (the game environment was pretty small and
mostly non-interactive, as opposed to games such as Myst, in which
you could pick up or play with just about anything on the screen)
were lacking. The "story" was almost like an afterthought, and if
you took it away, you could still play through and solve the game.
I am not saying that it was a bad game- many people liked it- but
I do not really classify it as an adventure game. "Puzzle game" would
probably be more accurate.
IMHO, while the puzzles were okay, the game itself was not very
interesting. I think that good puzzles are an important part of
a good adventure game, but they should not be the only part...
Regards,
Benjamin E. Sones
krf9...@uconnvm.uconn.edu
Craig Allen Stelter
Richard Sensale (wol...@usa1.com) wrote:
: >I am sorry that you couldn't solve any of the puzzles. There are some
: >people here who breazed through them finding it too easy, others are
: >still moving along at a steady pace. If you want to find out the goal
: >of the puzzle, you can always consult the Help in your Game Book. It
: >seems that you want a game to be hand fed to you on a silver platter,
: >with no serious cognitive thought on your part.
: >
: From what I saw at a friends house the puzzles are either interminably
: stupid and slow, or far too easy depending on how much of gamer you are.
: My friend solved it in ONE NIGHT.... Seems you guys have slipped a bit.
: 7th guest was much better.
Hmm. I think your friend was leading you on a bit, was using the help button
very frequently, or possibly was on a round-the-world plane trip going west.
To me one night means maybe 5pm-3am or *maybe* 10 hours. There were 20 puzzles,
and with the animations required for say the knights (40 moves minimum),
the Train (quite a few moves required), and the furniture I'd say on average
the amount of time required to complete all 20 puzzles is easily 5 hours--
that's an average of 15 minutes per puzzle which is probably conservative even
if you immediately figured out every puzzle instantly. Heck I'd be surprised
if you could even solve the honeycomb puzzle in less than 15 minutes if you
instantly made the right move each and every turn. Anyway, there's 1 hour
of video. That leaves you about 4 hours to solve all of the riddles. Just
walking around the house to every single item assuming you knew what the items
were and where they were ahead of time would probably take around an hour--
even using the right click speedup. That leaves 3 hours to solve all the
word puzzles. I suppose it's possible, but I don't think so.
: >>One of the worst things was continous Stauf's voice bugging me. Every
: >>damn time I tried to accomplish something Stauf told me that I was an
: >>idiot. HEAR ME O' TRILOBYTE: I DO NOT WANT TO BE
: CALLED AS AN IDIOT
: >>WHEN I PLAY ENERTAINMENT SOFTWARE!
: >
: >Umm, whatever, go back to your politcally correct Sierra games. Stauf
: >is supposed to be evil and the house is alive. Do you expect it to
: >do nothing while you invade it's domain? Come on, grow up.
: >
: Staufs voice is both insult9ing and irritating especially when he says the
: same thing over and over and over again....
He only says the same thing over and over if you're blindly clicking about
the house.
: >>At last but not least: the ending was really lame! I managed to get a
: >>save game that allowed me to do "open house" and watched the movie
: from
: AGREED 100%
I thought the ending with Marie was the most entertaining. Carl was a
loser anyway :->
<Irritated mode on (apologies to the net group at large)>
I've read over a number of your recent posts and I must say you have a
tendency to quote material wholly unrelated to your post (like the majority
of the original note I'm replying to, and reams of some guy's config.sys in
another.) You complain about the high cost of software and how the 11th hour
sucks, yet you also seem to know how to solve most of the puzzles and riddles.
You also seem quite excited about how you are going to spend your Christmas
money.
Some words of totally unsolicited advice to you-- sorry couldn't resist.
A. Quote only what is pertinent to what you are posting-- it's polite.
B. Find a store that'll return the software for cash if you can't make
them run well on your system. Buy demo disks first-- they're cheaper.
The fact you're stuck with MS Plus is no one's fault but your own.
C. Try Gabriel Knight 2-- I don't think it's as good as 11th Hour, but
I've been playing it for 2 days now and it's not too bad. Now if Only
They'd used Tbyte's compression software. I really notice 15fps 256
colors after being spoiled on 24bit color 30fps.
D. Try not to be so rude. In one note Graeme Devine (one of the main
programmers of 11H I believe :) was trying to help a guy who was having
color problems. The guy posted his question at 4pm Sun Dec 24. Graeme
posted his note at 8am Tue Dec 26. (At least the guy took a couple
days off for Christmas!) I'd guess that Graeme solved his problems
because later that day he posted saying he'd finished the first 4
puzzles. He appeared to be enjoying the game. You on the other
hand posted to Graeme's response to this guy claiming that the
programming team ought to be shot. I'm sorry, but telling a person
you'd like to see him shot is just rude! Did you ever think to post
about your specific problem? I read lots of notes from you ranting about
how the game didn't work for you, but I never saw you post your
config.sys etc. Perhaps you emailed Graeme directly, but it didn't
appear you even recognized who he was when you flamed him.
<Irritated mode off (Sorry I just had to say that)>
--
Craig Stelter
<My views are *mine* and don't always reflect that of my employer>
d...@iii.net
[MAJOR SNIP]
>Before we burn you at the stake, right after hanging, stabbing, cutting, and
>otherwise abusing you, let me say many words.
Gee, unbiased and fair, aren't we?
>First of all I am completely amazed that you have a job reviewing games.
I'm not, but I can clearly see why YOU don't. He stated his reasons for
disliking the game and told us where we could find the full review. And
he did it without obvious bias, dude.
>Not that you do not know how to string words into a complete sentence.
>Obviously you do have command of the English language. But the ability to
>be a wordsmith does not judgement make.
Oh, we all have the ability to make judgements. The trouble here is that you
disagree with his judgement. Given that he is from Finland, I'd say his
command of English is better than most I see.
>I thought the game was great in exactly those areas where you found fault.
>Now whose opinion is more valid? Yours because someone prints your
>opinions, or mine, because I spend the money to back up what I think?
I value his opinion and obviously do does the magazine he writes for. Given
this response, I place much LESS value on your opinion.
>Notice the number of posts in this group. See the interest. Awaken to the
>fact that what you like is not what everybody likes. A review to be valid
>should have some organized criteria. What is yours? Now I will try to
>answer that rhetorical question.
Did you read his review or only his posting? If you didn't read the review,
then I'd say your just shooting your mouth off.
>I suspect you like action games. So, go review Jet Fighter 17 1/2 or some
>such. 11th hour is an adventure game, which means puzzles and riddles.
>Your mind is not bent to either, apparently.
No, 11th Hour is most definitely NOT an adventure game (judging from both
the demo and The 7th Guest). It is a puzzle game. There is quite a difference.
>Please, this is not a flame. But in the face of your inability to solve any
>of the puzzles, why are you reviewing adult adventure games? *none* of the
>puzzles has taken me over 30 minutes to solve except the jewels, which was a
>realy bitch. And I am not a rocket scientest.
Most "puzzles" in adventure games deal with getting to a goal, often using things
you've picked up along the way. Since I saw no inventory nor ways to manipulate
things in the house (beyond solving puzzles), I'd say again that it's not an
adventure game. Just because you can solve the logic puzzles doesn't mean that
everyone can.
>A good many of the puzzles are easy, some medium, and some really hard, like
>the furniture. This makes for a *great* game design, which by any criteria,
>except yours, is exactly what 11th Hour is.
No, this is not game design, this is puzzle design. Game design deals with the
ENTIRE game, including how you move about, how you interact with the environ-
ment, storyline, etc. The 7th Guest pretty much had NO storyline, just a loosely
connected series of logic puzzles. There was pretty much NO user interaction
with the environment, either.
[snip]
>You spoke of the slow play. Ok, in some spots it is slow. The pieces move
>on their own at a pace that could be called leisurely. Use that time to
>exercise your brain to find a solution. As Stauf would most probably say.
>That is what I did. Thinking between and during moves, that is, and it
>worked. During play of one of the puzzles, the solution came to me while I
>was watching a piece move. This was the train, which has given everyone
>fits.
>
>So the somewhat leisurely pace during play of puzzles served a purpose.
No it didn't. If I want to take time to think, I'll take time to think. I
don't want to be FORCED to wait.
>See how easy it is to justify a position if you like something!
A pretty lame justification, I'd say.
>Some people like Jerry Lewis, some Richard Pryor. To interject humour into a
>game, what better humour genre than insults. While neither Lewis or Pryor,
>insult humour is something that many people find funny, and in the case of
>the 11th hour, somewhat wry, and in complete keeping with the plot. witness
>the poll already underway to nominate the best insult. You do read what
>people post here, don't you? (Gratuitous insult, sorry, I couldn't help
>myself)
I personally find "insult humour" quite offensive, but I agree that Stauf's
comments were appropriate for the game. He is not a nice person, after all.
>Yes, the 11th Hour has a plot. And a very convoluted and multi-dimensional
>plot in point of fact. The very best plot associated with an adventure game
>it has been my pleasure to play.
Again, I haven't played it beyond the demo, but the 7th Guest had no plot.
It had an ending, but no story line that I "uncovered."
>Ok, my conclusion is that the game is supurb in almost every respect.
>
>Great Graphics.
>Challenging puzzles
>Great Riddles
>Great Plot
>A decent side bar movie that helps tie things together.
>
>In conclusion, this is a great adventure game for adults. It fits the genre
>of adventure games by any definition. And as such, much of your critisism
>is invalid.
Really? I'd like to see that canonical definition of adventure game that you
refer to. I'd say it fits the definition of "puzzle game" perfectly, but that
ain't my definition of adventure game. Ultima Underworld fits my definition
of adventure game...As such, much of your flaming is invalid.
[snip]
>I strongly recommend it to anyone who likes this type of game, and I spent
>my money to back up my opinion.
That's fine, as long as you correctly identify "this type of game."
>I suspect some people are going to tear your head off. Please note that I
>have made an effort to just point out that your temperment is obviously not
>directed towards making a sound judgement of what is and isn't a good
>adventure game.
No, you flamed him without noticing his points. And so have most of the
other people who disagreed with his opinion.
>I am sure that you realise your exposure when you admitted you couldn't
>solve any of the puzzles. At least I hope you knew what you were doing.
The fact he couldn't solve the puzzles hardly means he is unqualified to
review the game.
I fully expect to get flamed for this, but since I won't be checking this
group often, please use the Reply-to address in the header if you want
to continue this "discussion."
>Larry Summers
DDA
--
David D'Antonio CNE - dant...@process.com
Some they do and some they don't and some ya just can't tell
Some they will and some they won't and some it's just as well
-SuperTramp
Tim Bednall
>>>beginning to end and was most disappointed with ending. <SPOILERSPOILER
SPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILER> Thats all for what I
>>>went trought? Some hero I am...
Well, thank you very much for ruining the ending for me and all the other
people who read your bitchings about the game. Next time if you are going to
reveal information like that in your messages, title it SPOILER in either the
subject heading or in the message somewhere.
And for the record, I think the 11th Hour is a fantastic game to the point
I've played it to. Congrats to the folks at Trilobyte.
,-._|\ Tim Bednall Limit to about 76 cols->
/ Oz \ Mail Address, Phone, Fax. Member, Melbourne PC User Group.
\_,--.x/ Edit/replace text but don't exceed 4 lines as per netiquette.
v ++++ Fancy borders count as a line ~~~~~~~~~~-----++++++++++
Larry Summers
>David D'Antonio CNE - dant...@process.com
> Some they do and some they don't and some ya just can't tell
> Some they will and some they won't and some it's just as well
> -SuperTramp
>
What the heck, let's snip it all David.
No I'm not going to flame you. You correctly exposed flaws in my logic, and
since you took the time to politely point them out, I will take the time to
thank you, and share a couple of observations.
1. Yes I did read as much of the review as he presented in the posting.
2. You are correct, 11th Hour is not a classic adventure game like "under a
killing moon", or even the original adventure which is what got me into
computers to begin with. But there is a story line, puzzles, and riddles.
And it is selling like hotcakes compared to Jewels or the Oracle, which is a
pure puzzle game. So is this a new genre? Any opinion pro or con is valid.
mine, your's, or whoever's.
3. For whatever reason, I really didn't notice he was from Finland until we
started sending e-mail back and forth. Don't recall if this fact was in the
original post or not. It does explain why he had an adverse reaction to the
insults. I doubt that 11th hour will sell well in Finland, as insults are
not considered humorous in that country, or so I have been told.
4. I am not going to review (painfully) the several areas where you nailed
me. Stuff like "judgement" ok, I left out "sound" judgement, but would
still have been off base. That you value his opinion and not mine, I can
live with.
But I will disagree with your remarks in one area.
If he can't solve any of the puzzles, in my opinion, he **isn't** qualified
to review the game at a professional level. In other words, it was over his
head, and he should have turned the review job over to someone who could
handle it.
He did say he likes Sierra. I do wonder what he thought of Myst?
If I had been really thinking when I originally challenged him, I would
probably have asked him to give me his opinion on Myst. A reviewer's task
is to not only provide insite into the subject, but also to provide some
perspective from what base the review is launched. I can't get much out of
review if I don't know the mindset of the reviewer. Of course he could be a
well known and established writer, whose readers are well acquainted with
his views. Dunno.
That he likes Sierra does establish one reference point. I personally think
that most of the Sierra games which I have played are slightly on the
juvenile side, and the 11th Hour was clearly more adult.
And a bunch more difficult.
David, Happy New Year from Dallas
Larry Summers
BTW, just to pick semantics, I don't consider a challenge a flame. To me
flames are more along the lines of hysterical and gratuitous put downs from
guys like Kowalski. :-)
Larry Summers
>
////snip major parts/////
>
>From what I saw at a friends house the puzzles are either interminably
>stupid and slow, or far too easy depending on how much of gamer you are.
>My friend solved it in ONE NIGHT.... Seems you guys have slipped a bit.
> 7th guest was much better.
I don't believe that someone can play the 11th Hour from opening the box in
one night, even if you count the night as 12 hours. I think your friend was
putting you on.
/////snip more stuff/////
>
>Staufs voice is both insult9ing and irritating especially when he says the
>same thing over and over and over again....
He only says stuff over and over if you restart a game, or click on the
wrong object when searching for the answer to a clue. This further confirms
my doubt that your friend played it in one night.
Fortunately for Trilobyte, at least as represented in this news group, your
negative opinion of the game is decidely in the minority.
Rob Landeros
A friend of mine, Peter Oliphant, who is the original designer and main
programmer of Interplay's STONEKEEP, wrote to me with these insights:
"You guys are bigger targets with T11H because you have a higher level of
DEFINED expectation, since it is a sequel to T7G. And you have people that for
some reason carry a grudge against T7G, and are back for round two with T11H."
"I think the problem is that most people fail to realize is that T7G and T11H
are not primarily "games" per se, but forms of "entertainment." You know the
drill on this thought, so I won't detail it. What is important is that T11H
and T7G are both VERY successful at being forms of entartainment, as evidenced
by their massive sales (I may be jumping ahead here about T11H, but I doubt it
<g>)."
d...@iii.net
>11th Hour. Is it a puzzle game or an adventure?
From what I've seen, it's a puzzle game.
>A friend of mine, Peter Oliphant, who is the original designer and main
>programmer of Interplay's STONEKEEP, wrote to me with these insights:
>
>"You guys are bigger targets with T11H because you have a higher level of
>DEFINED expectation, since it is a sequel to T7G. And you have people that for
>some reason carry a grudge against T7G, and are back for round two with T11H."
No, you guys are "targets" because the game is (was in the case of T7G)
billed as an adventure game, when it is nothing of the sort (I'm judging T11H
by the demo and comments I've seen here. I played T7G so I'm judging that
based on experience). Some of the "grudge" people have is based on this
confusion.
>"I think the problem is that most people fail to realize is that T7G and T11H
>are not primarily "games" per se, but forms of "entertainment." You know the
>drill on this thought, so I won't detail it. What is important is that T11H
>and T7G are both VERY successful at being forms of entartainment, as evidenced
>by their massive sales (I may be jumping ahead here about T11H, but I doubt it
><g>)."
No, T7G and T11H ARE games, which are, in turn, forms of "entertainment." A
television program is also such a form, (although its usually a poor form, but hey :-).
I don't think that anyone really believes that T7G or T11H are anything BUT games;
the only dispute is over what type of game and if they are any good. I say they are
puzzle games and I've seen nothing to change that opinion.
I know I was disappointed with T7G because I thought I could just wander around this
cool house and play with things I found there. Instead I was locked into a track and
only got to "interact" with the puzzles. Once I accepted that, I could appreciate the
way the puzzles were animated and such.
Rob Landeros
>In <4c1lm1$s...@marvin.tbyte.com>, r...@tbyte.com (Rob Landeros) writes:
>No, you guys are "targets" because the game is (was in the case of T7G)
>billed as an adventure game, when it is nothing of the sort (I'm judging T11H
>by the demo and comments I've seen here. I played T7G so I'm judging that
>based on experience). Some of the "grudge" people have is based on this
>confusion.
I'm not sure who exactly "billed" us as an adventure game. I know we never
did. It is not widely realized, but Virgin never ran any advertisements for
T7G at all. (Well, an ad appeared in two non-trade magazines one month.
But I defy anyone to look at their old pc games magazines for that time period
and find an ad for it.)
In many cases, people had a preconceived notion about what type of game T7G
was to be, as you state was your own case, and it turned out to be like
nothing they had seen or expected because there had not been many, if any,
games like T7G when it first appeared on the scene. But retailers and
magazines and others must label titles to fit neatly within their
existing category system, and most found it convenient to put it into the
adventure slot.
Rob
W C Newell Jr
>In article <4c4jl2$q...@news.iii.net>, d...@iii.net wrote:
>>
>>No, you guys are "targets" because the game is (was in the case of T7G)
>>billed as an adventure game, when it is nothing of the sort (I'm judging T11H
>>by the demo and comments I've seen here. I played T7G so I'm judging that
>>based on experience). Some of the "grudge" people have is based on this
>>confusion.
>
>I'm not sure who exactly "billed" us as an adventure game. I know we never
>did. It is not widely realized, but Virgin never ran any advertisements for
>T7G at all. (Well, an ad appeared in two non-trade magazines one month.
>But I defy anyone to look at their old pc games magazines for that time period
>and find an ad for it.)
First off, let's get some facts straight. Virgin promoted T7G quite heavily
prior to release, using (a) display advertising in several trades (I remember
seeing them in CGW; dare me and I'll go to the library and look up the dates),
(b) press releases and trade show demos, resulting in preview articles and
promos appearing all over the place, esp. in the multimedia literature (c.f.
"New Media", "Multimedia World", etc), (c) extensive distribution of a 30+ min.
looping demo CD at least three months prior to release; my local Egghead store
ran this virtually non-stop as their premier multimedia demo, and (d) selective
distribution of playable beta CDs to software distributors, retail chains, and
multimedia outlets as an incentive to pre-order. Shortly after release, Virgin
signed deals to bundle T7G with several popular multimedia hardware kits; not
surprisingly, those deals vanished when retail sales climbed.
The big marketing hooks for T7G in the trade literature were "biggest adventure
game ever" (2 CDs!), and "the first true multimedia gaming experience"
(emphasizing the use of 3DS as the rendering tool and a professional music
score). In fairness, I can't recall Virgin ever using the word "adventure" in
any of its PRs, and the media didn't need any encouragement to hype the size,
but on the other hand, references to the "puzzle" elements of the game were
interspersed throughout. Early reviews of T7G in the trades and on the
net consistently lauded its presentation and style but frankly conceded that
the puzzles were on the whole quite simple and were not thematically related to
the story. CGW has categorized T7G as an adventure game and has listed it as
such on its ratings chart for the past 2.5 years without any word of dissent
from the publisher.
My own first impressions of T7G were quite mixed. As a 3DS user, I was duly
impressed with the graphic design, and I studied some of the backgrounds quite
carefully; however, as an avid adventurer and puzzle solver, it was a major
disappointment. Almost nothing to it. And maybe that's why it's been so
successful. I like my adventures >hard<, and I'll embrace a pure
puzzle-solving non-adventure game, of which there have been precious few.
The reason I was so looking forward to 11H was based on expectations that here
at last would be a real puzzle-solver's game. And the big complaint is not
that it failed as a game, as did T7G, but rather that because it appears to
deliver in that respect, it's so frustrating to be held back by performance
issues caused solely by your pushing the presentation envelope. I'm buying a
new machine soon anyway, but I'd think twice, maybe three times about spending
$3K just to look at some impressive graphics, when what I'm really looking for
as a consumer is a mental challenge. My current system should be quite
sufficient for the purpose.
I won't comment on the possibility that others who play 11H and see the whole
presentation are expecting a "walkthrough" adventure like so many other titles
with impressive graphics, and who might be put off by the difficulty of the
puzzles.
>In many cases, people had a preconceived notion about what type of game T7G
>was to be, [...] and it turned out to be like
>nothing they had seen or expected because there had not been many, if any,
>games like T7G when it first appeared on the scene. But retailers and
>magazines and others must label titles to fit neatly within their
>existing category system, and most found it convenient to put it into the
>adventure slot.
Ten years ago, the "adventure" and "puzzle" genres were synonymous, because the
presentation was either text-only or low-res graphics, and the puzzle-solving
was the principal entertainment element and thus the focus of the game design.
Multimedia and FMV presentations have caused the two categories to diverge.
I wouldn't be so quick to hold the media responsible for the perpetuation of
the old association or any consumer confusion related thereto. Marketers are
fully capable of exploiting the inherent ambiguity in the nomenclature in an
attempt to broaden a product's appeal and so increase sales. If we separate
the "adventure" category according to what's coming to market, we'd probably
end up with "interactives" (analagous to "books" and "movies") and "puzzlers".
It will be slow going to get the industry to recognize this distinction, much
less the general public.
(One of these days, some publisher is going to get the bright idea of doing a
"Dell Logic Puzzles" CD, or equivalent thereof, and we'll see what the demand
for that genre really is.)
11H may be unique at this moment in its ability to combine these two new genres
and work effectively as entertainment in either one. The real question that
must be asked is whether the typical consumer is interested in both genres or
if he/she will insist that an entertainment product be one or the other and
will only purchase according to his/her preference. In conclusion: what is
your intended audience? If you have to choose, do you want 11H to be seen as
an "interactive" or a "puzzler"??
--
Bill Newell
w...@biostat.washington.edu
"4,691 irradiated haggis." Arnold Rimmer, 'Red Dwarf'
d...@iii.net
>In article <4c4jl2$q...@news.iii.net>, d...@iii.net wrote:
>>billed as an adventure game, when it is nothing of the sort (I'm judging T11H
>>by the demo and comments I've seen here. I played T7G so I'm judging that
>>based on experience). Some of the "grudge" people have is based on this
>>confusion.
>
>I'm not sure who exactly "billed" us as an adventure game. I know we never
>did. It is not widely realized, but Virgin never ran any advertisements for
>T7G at all. (Well, an ad appeared in two non-trade magazines one month.
>But I defy anyone to look at their old pc games magazines for that time period
>and find an ad for it.)
Well, one might assume that 11H is an adventure game, given that it's being
discussed in ...pc.games.ADVENTURE...I don't recall how I found about about
T7G, but I believe it was due to ads of some sort. Perhaps it was just through
the net (a potent form of advertising in itself :-).
>In many cases, people had a preconceived notion about what type of game T7G
>was to be, as you state was your own case, and it turned out to be like
>nothing they had seen or expected because there had not been many, if any,
>games like T7G when it first appeared on the scene. But retailers and
>magazines and others must label titles to fit neatly within their
>existing category system, and most found it convenient to put it into the
>adventure slot.
Another reason folks might assume it is an adventure game, if they found it
next to games like Ultima Underworld. It was billed (as I recall) as a ground-
breaking game in which you explore a haunted mansion and uncover clues to
what really happened, yadda yadda yadda. Well, to me, that sure sounds like
an adventure game. Looking back, I see that it can be construed as the truth,
but I certainly thought it misleading at the time.
Since I haven't played 11H (except for the demo) and won't until the GUS
support is fixed, I can't say if things have changed. Of course, now I know
what to expect and will "judge" it accordingly.
Please note that I am NOT saying that 11H (or T7G) isn't a FUN game. There
are enough folks posting about their enjoyment that it would be foolish to
say otherwise. I'm saying that it is a (multimedia) puzzle game rather than
an adventure game and certainly that category is well established now. BTW,
I am also impressed with the dedication of you and Graeme in helping folks
out here. I am a bit dismayed that such help is necessary, but hey...:-)
>Rob
Rob Landeros
[delete]
>Please note that I am NOT saying that 11H (or T7G) isn't a FUN game. There
>are enough folks posting about their enjoyment that it would be foolish to
>say otherwise. I'm saying that it is a (multimedia) puzzle game rather than
>an adventure game and certainly that category is well established now. BTW,
I certainly would not argue that "multimedia puzzle game" might better
describe it. I agree that the category is well-established and should be more
widely adopted. My point is that we're just the developers and how it is
classified and perceived once it is on the market is out of our control.
>I am also impressed with the dedication of you and Graeme in helping folks
>out here. I am a bit dismayed that such help is necessary, but hey...:-)
>
That makes at least two of us, pal. :-)
Rob