3 pissed off questions about Riven (SPOILER)
Dave Ludwig
totally unrelated to the game, but them being totally impossible to
solve really sucks. Good thing the Internet was there to help me
along. I have a few questions:
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
1.) How was I supposed to discern what the numbers 11-25 looked like
when the puzzle in the school only goes up to 10? Gehn's code numbers
can go up to 25. I read on the Net that Rivenese number system is based
on 25, how else would I have known that?
2.) How is it feasible to expect the gamer to figure out where to place
the marbles in the Marble puzzle? I know you are supposed to use the
topographical map on Plateau Island, but that is insane! I couldn't
even see where the spinning domes where on the map, let alone pick a
spot on the grid to match it! Or even which way to turn the grid.
3.) This question is unrelated to puzzles. But is it realistic to
expect Gehn to fall for the "one-man prison" book just because you went
before him? He knew Atrus sent you with the book, who would be that
stupid?
4.) Atrus said at the beginning of the game that at the end he would
help you get back to where you came from. But at the end he just leaves
you either to die with the Riven age, or fall into the star fissure.
The least he could have done is let you come back to Dunne. What a weak
ending!
5.) Puzzles that still make you do work after the puzzle is solved suck
as well. Case in point, the Rotating room puzzle. Once you figure out
how to get all of the doors open, THEY SHOULD ALL STAY OPEN!!!! I don't
want to have to waste 30 sec. rotating the room every time I want to go
through a different passage.
OK - I'm done. Still waiting for Grim to show up. (and my free
t-shirt!)
--
/------------------------------------------/
Dave Ludwig
http://www.megsinet.com/davel
E-Mail: da...@megsinet.net
/------------------------------------------/
Greg Sumner
Dave Ludwig wrote in message <363DD32E...@megsinet.net>...
>Well, I finished Riven with some help. I knew that Riven's puzzles were
>totally unrelated to the game, but them being totally impossible to
>solve really sucks. Good thing the Internet was there to help me
>along. I have a few questions:
>S
>P
>O
>I
>L
>E
>R
>
>
>
>1.) How was I supposed to discern what the numbers 11-25 looked like
>when the puzzle in the school only goes up to 10? Gehn's code numbers
>can go up to 25. I read on the Net that Rivenese number system is based
>on 25, how else would I have known that?
I figured this out, it wasn't that tough. Once you run out of numbers you
start repeating or combining them, just like base-10.
>2.) How is it feasible to expect the gamer to figure out where to place
>the marbles in the Marble puzzle? I know you are supposed to use the
>topographical map on Plateau Island, but that is insane! I couldn't
>even see where the spinning domes where on the map, let alone pick a
>spot on the grid to match it! Or even which way to turn the grid.
That was very tough and obscure, I agree. I think it was solvable though.
I figured it, but I had a position wrong on one of the domes. I wasn't
about to go back and re-map all of them, so I used the walkthrough. I felt
vindicated that I had done it correctly though.
>3.) This question is unrelated to puzzles. But is it realistic to
>expect Gehn to fall for the "one-man prison" book just because you went
>before him? He knew Atrus sent you with the book, who would be that
>stupid?
Hmm, I think Atrus figured it out by accident didn't he? At any rate, at
the beginning Atrus tells you Gehn will suspect the book is an exit from the
Island and he'll try to get it. They could have made this better. There
could have been a better lure than getting you to go into the book.
>4.) Atrus said at the beginning of the game that at the end he would
>help you get back to where you came from. But at the end he just leaves
>you either to die with the Riven age, or fall into the star fissure.
>The least he could have done is let you come back to Dunne. What a weak
>ending!
That was lame.
>5.) Puzzles that still make you do work after the puzzle is solved suck
>as well. Case in point, the Rotating room puzzle. Once you figure out
>how to get all of the doors open, THEY SHOULD ALL STAY OPEN!!!! I don't
>want to have to waste 30 sec. rotating the room every time I want to go
>through a different passage.
Lame as well. It got tiring spinning that room around, but once you were
done you didn't need to go back there too often.
Overall Riven is in my top 10 games, but it's certainly not perfect.
~ Greg
Andrew Ingle
> 1.) How was I supposed to discern what the numbers 11-25 looked like
> when the puzzle in the school only goes up to 10? Gehn's code numbers
> can go up to 25. I read on the Net that Rivenese number system is based
> on 25, how else would I have known that?
It depends on you spotting that 6 to 9 are just shapes 1 to 4 combined with
the 5. Then you notice 10 is like 2 but rotated 90 degrees
anti-clockwise. The same applies to 5 which is really shape 1 with the
same rotation. Thus the combination of the five basic patterns and their
rotated versions gives a set of numbers 0 to 24
>
> 2.) How is it feasible to expect the gamer to figure out where to place
> the marbles in the Marble puzzle? I know you are supposed to use the
> topographical map on Plateau Island, but that is insane! I couldn't
> even see where the spinning domes where on the map, let alone pick a
> spot on the grid to match it! Or even which way to turn the grid.
This was a tough one, but once you've decided you're supposed to find the
location of the domes they do show up (faintly) on the maps. Then you have
to do a little guesswork with the colours since there's more colours than
domes and one of the underwater lamps doesn't work.
> 3.) This question is unrelated to puzzles. But is it realistic to
> expect Gehn to fall for the "one-man prison" book just because you went
> before him? He knew Atrus sent you with the book, who would be that
> stupid?
I don't think Gehn knows that "prison books" exist. His worry is that the
book will take him somewhere nasty so he make you go first.
> 4.) Atrus said at the beginning of the game that at the end he would
> help you get back to where you came from. But at the end he just leaves
> you either to die with the Riven age, or fall into the star fissure.
> The least he could have done is let you come back to Dunne. What a weak
> ending!
Bit nasty, that. But in the beginning of Myst you're stuck on that Island,
so in a sense there is no home to return to.
> 5.) Puzzles that still make you do work after the puzzle is solved suck
> as well. Case in point, the Rotating room puzzle. Once you figure out
> how to get all of the doors open, THEY SHOULD ALL STAY OPEN!!!! I don't
> want to have to waste 30 sec. rotating the room every time I want to go
> through a different passage.
This is just a slight inconvenience. The real puzzle is discovering there
are actually 5 exits from the rotating room, not just the 3 you can see,
and then getting the locked doors open. Once you've got enough done you
can leave the room facing the way you originally found it and just march
through.
--
Andrew Ingle
E-mail: and...@ranworth.org
Stu
>Well, I finished Riven with some help. I knew that Riven's puzzles were
>totally unrelated to the game, but them being totally impossible to
>solve really sucks. Good thing the Internet was there to help me
>along. I have a few questions:
Really? TOTALLY unreleated? As much as 7th guest, and to a lesser
extent, Myst?
I think the puzzles in Riven were really well inegrated into the game.
How could you say that the number puzzle wasn't integrated? You
learned it by playing with a toy the village's children used.
>1.) How was I supposed to discern what the numbers 11-25 looked like
>when the puzzle in the school only goes up to 10? Gehn's code numbers
>can go up to 25. I read on the Net that Rivenese number system is based
>on 25, how else would I have known that?
Easy. I figured it out. You just had to find the trick.
I can't remember the number system off the top of my head, I played
the game a year go, but I think it was something along the lines of if
you look at 1 and 5, one was rotated 90 degrees to the other
clockwise. That means multiply by 5. I think you got #10 so that
you'd have a symbol to make #20 with, by rotating it, and you could
make the numbers from 10 to 19 by rotating the ones before them. I
think.
The number system is based on 5, just like everything else on the
island. It just has 25 numbers they can display with only one symbol.
Saying that the system is based on 25 because they can display higher
numbers than 5 with one sysmbol would be like saying the roman numeral
system is based on 1000, or whatever the max displayable number on one
numeral they had was.
>2.) How is it feasible to expect the gamer to figure out where to place
>the marbles in the Marble puzzle? I know you are supposed to use the
>topographical map on Plateau Island, but that is insane! I couldn't
>even see where the spinning domes where on the map, let alone pick a
>spot on the grid to match it! Or even which way to turn the grid.
The marble puzzle was the worst puzzle in the game.
To find the domes on the grid, you have to find the little round lumps
on the grid. It's as simple as that. They're hard to spot. It's a
bad puzzle. There is one underground dome though. You simply have to
look at the map very carefully, figure out which of the four quadrants
it's in, and then figure out approximately where it is and make some
guesses as to where to put the marble.
And there's one extra marble. But there's no way to know what the
color of one of the domes is, so you simply have to guess at that too.
That final puzzle WAS really poorly done.
>3.) This question is unrelated to puzzles. But is it realistic to
>expect Gehn to fall for the "one-man prison" book just because you went
>before him? He knew Atrus sent you with the book, who would be that
>stupid?
Well, one would expect that you wouldn't be willing to trap yourself
forever, and he doesn't know that the trapped person is displaced by
the next person that enters.
He just thinks it's your way to get out of Riven once you've rescued
Catherine. But he's not stupid, he knows it could be a trap, which is
why he uses that test. Unfortunately, his son was cleverer than he
was.
>4.) Atrus said at the beginning of the game that at the end he would
>help you get back to where you came from. But at the end he just leaves
>you either to die with the Riven age, or fall into the star fissure.
>The least he could have done is let you come back to Dunne. What a weak
>ending!
I think the star fissure IS the way back home. After all, it is how
the Myst book came into your hands in the first place... because Atrus
dropped it in there.
>5.) Puzzles that still make you do work after the puzzle is solved suck
>as well. Case in point, the Rotating room puzzle. Once you figure out
>how to get all of the doors open, THEY SHOULD ALL STAY OPEN!!!! I don't
>want to have to waste 30 sec. rotating the room every time I want to go
>through a different passage.
They do stay open. But there's only two doorways. If they didn't
have only two doorways, then you wouldn't have to figure out that
puzzle.
But I suppose they could have made 5 doorways, and had 3 of them be
blocked until you got all the doors opened. I agree that it was
annoying to rotate it constantly.
But you have to remember, it took them 4 years to make this game. By
the time they discovered a flaw like that, it was probably too late to
change.
JeffC 1474
people
>who would rather have a pissed off and lame attitude about an adventure -
>it's
>a waste of time.
Yet you did respond. A paradox.
JeffC 1474
like it.
I bought the walkthrough, just so I could see the whole game, since it was so
popular
and I wanted to be able to discuss it at cocktail parties, dontcha know. I
thought Myst
was pretty, but other than that a pretty lame game because some of the puzzles
seemed
so arbitrary to me. I have a very low tolerance for that. If I were to finish
the game
without the walkthru, I would have found it extremely tedious. So, I had no
inclination
whatsoever to play Riven after that. I don't think Myst is a horrible game - I
just don't
think it's for everyone. What I don't understand is that it sold like it *was*
for
everyone! There are a lot of better games out there, IMO.
Talicca
> Well, I finished Riven with some help. I knew that Riven's puzzles were
> totally unrelated to the game, but them being totally impossible to
> solve really sucks. Good thing the Internet was there to help me
> along. I have a few questions:
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
>
> 1.) How was I supposed to discern what the numbers 11-25 looked like
> when the puzzle in the school only goes up to 10? Gehn's code numbers
> can go up to 25. I read on the Net that Rivenese number system is based
> on 25, how else would I have known that?
That's easy. It's called "pattern recognition". It's something they're
supposed to teach kids in primary school, but sometimes never get around to
it.
> 2.) How is it feasible to expect the gamer to figure out where to place
> the marbles in the Marble puzzle? I know you are supposed to use the
> topographical map on Plateau Island, but that is insane! I couldn't
> even see where the spinning domes where on the map, let alone pick a
> spot on the grid to match it! Or even which way to turn the grid.
I actually found that really easy. There's all this rocky-looking terrain,
then there's these weird.... bumps. I noticed a couple of landmarks (like
that the lump on Temple island was on top of a big spire of rock, just like
the dome on Temple island) and it just clicked straight away. I didn't get
the Boiler island one tho, until I figured out that the Boiler island dome
is underground, so it wouldn't be a lumb, but a depression.
> 3.) This question is unrelated to puzzles. But is it realistic to
> expect Gehn to fall for the "one-man prison" book just because you went
> before him? He knew Atrus sent you with the book, who would be that
> stupid?
At the beginning, Atrus tells you he's sending you with a book that is a
"one-man prison", and he can't send you with a way to get out. Of course,
Gehn promptly assumes that the book is a linking book out of Riven, because
he thinks Atrus would have sent you with one (that's how the D'ni usually do
it apparently) Obviously, he's wary of a trap, but he doesn't know about
prison books, so he sends you through first. If you'd played Myst before
Riven, then you would probably know that if you touch a prison book when
there's someone inside it, the person in decide gets displaced to let you
in. Therefore, no worries about going before Gehn.
> 4.) Atrus said at the beginning of the game that at the end he would
> help you get back to where you came from. But at the end he just leaves
> you either to die with the Riven age, or fall into the star fissure.
> The least he could have done is let you come back to Dunne. What a weak
> ending!
If he'd taken you back to D'ni with him and Catherine, there's probably no
chance you would ever get home. The star fissure is the only way Atrus knows
of that you can get home. If Riven is destroyed, they don't know where else
they can find the star fissure, so really, the time to use it is now.
> 5.) Puzzles that still make you do work after the puzzle is solved suck
> as well. Case in point, the Rotating room puzzle. Once you figure out
> how to get all of the doors open, THEY SHOULD ALL STAY OPEN!!!! I don't
> want to have to waste 30 sec. rotating the room every time I want to go
> through a different passage.
I agree with that, but luckily you don't have to go through there very
often, unless you make a mistake.
Dave Ludwig
I probably didn't study the numbers enough to figure out the numbering
system. The bottom line is, though, that when I need a walkthrough to help
me get to the end of the game, it makes me feel like I'm not having fun. I
good example of a game I enjoyed a lot was Monkey Island 3. No need for
walkthroughs in that game. Same with Journeyman Project 3.
Stu - you were correct about the number puzzle, which helped to figure out
the number system. I stand corrected. But things like the marble puzzle
seemed a little outlandish to me. Why would Gehn use such a rediculous
puzzle to give power to the Fire Marbles? With all the advanced technology
he had available, why not have a keycode or something that he could input in
his lab, instead of marbles on top of the dome? I think maybe that was the
only puzzle I really felt was out of the storyline ... but that was the most
critical puzzle of the game!
Also - the necessity of getting in that chair on jungle island and rising 30
feet in the air just to close the floor of the cone-shaped cage in the
water... WHAT?! Isn't it more realistic to have a control lever near the
cage?
I could list a bunch of these, but there's no reason to argue why these
things are the way they are. The truth is, they put them in there just so
they could show you some more pretty pictures, and lengthen the gameplay.
Stu
>Stu - you were correct about the number puzzle, which helped to figure out
>the number system. I stand corrected. But things like the marble puzzle
>seemed a little outlandish to me. Why would Gehn use such a rediculous
>puzzle to give power to the Fire Marbles? With all the advanced technology
>he had available, why not have a keycode or something that he could input in
>his lab, instead of marbles on top of the dome? I think maybe that was the
>only puzzle I really felt was out of the storyline ... but that was the most
>critical puzzle of the game!
I agree.
I had a problem with one of the other puzzles though. The spheres
that made noise puzzle. I never saw an underwater animation I needed
to to see the right fish to use, and I managed to click everywhere
around that giant knife but on the walkway, which I couldn't tell was
a walkway, so I couldn't find that sphere without cheating.
>Also - the necessity of getting in that chair on jungle island and rising 30
>feet in the air just to close the floor of the cone-shaped cage in the
>water... WHAT?! Isn't it more realistic to have a control lever near the
>cage?
Well if you recall, Ghen made himself look like a god to the
islanders. I imagine that he tried to keep himself as distant from
them as possible, and that chair was his way of being able to watch
the scrifices, or command that there be one, from his godlike position
way up in the sky.
It took me a long time to get to that point because I had to go
through the map island to get there. The dumb beetle that you have to
pull the thing on wasn't nearly obvious enough, so I wasn't able to
open the beetle mouth with the elevator from that island.
Sean Daida
all points well ) that it is true Riven is not for everyone. I felt
that all the puzzles were solvable. I thought that the spinning domes
stuck out like sore thumbs on the topo maps.
Lastly, I think the puzzle integration was as good or better than
any other game I have ever played. Seriously! How can you say that
they weren't well integrated? I mean, you do have a right to any
opinion you may have. I am not trying to deny you that right. I just
don't understand the foundation of that opinion.
Evan Hammerman
camera, the dome puzzle was a no brainer.
Of course, I spent two months trying to get to the dome and Gehn's lab
on Boiler Island because I didn't click exactly where I needed to to get to
the walkway to the lab or the dome behind the closed doors. Also, it took me
a while to figure out that the tree elevator goes down as well as up. Also,
it took me a while to solve the stones puzzle because I forgot that bugs
have six legs vice four. But then again I just intuited that the first stone
was a fish, just from the dried fish hanging from the mud houses, and the
underwater wooden ball that I got a glimpse of when I rotated the sub at its
first position.
The point is that everyone's thought processes work differently. Riven
was a great game that was fun to look at while I was wandering around
looking for wooden rotating sound effect balls and spinning domes (hmmm lots
of rotating spheres). The whole atmosphere of the Moiety Age was worth the
price of admission IMHO. Agreed, it's not for everyone, but that is why
there are first-person shooters and epic RPGs out there too.
Evan! who is currently struggling through the technical challenges of
getting Grim Fandango to run correctly, and is anxiously awaiting November
22 to see if Half-Life *finally* ships