Prey designers quit 3DRealms to use Quake engine??!!
Rob Jellinghaus
I just got this from Carmack's finger entry (finger jo...@idsoftware.com).
Surprised this hasn't gotten more play on the net yet. OK, everyone,
let's hear it!
-----
Aug 12:
Apogee's Prey team (and Duke's Levelord) leave 3drealms to work with
Quake technology as Hipnotic Interactive.
:-)
-----
Hmmmm... what was that about how Prey will kick Quake's ass, again?
--
Rob Jellinghaus ro...@unreal.com http://www.best.com/~robj
Rob Jellinghaus
OK, let me be the first to follow up my posting with the results of
finger geo...@3drealms.com:
[3drealms.com]
Login: gbroussard Name: George Broussard
Directory: /usr/gbroussard Shell: /bin/csh
Never logged in.
Mail forwarded to: 72321...@compuserve.com
plan:
>>
John Carmack's Finger info:
Aug 12:
Apogee's Prey team (and Duke's Levelord) leave 3drealms to work with Quake
technology as Hipnotic Interactive.
:-) >>
3D Realms' response:
Correct, but a little misleading. The entire team did not leave. Far from it.
What happened was two programmers left the project, leaving the main engine
programmer, William Scarboro working on the engine. We see little setback,
and will begin interviews immediately for the two open spots. (Tools programmer/Editor
and Net code/general game programmer). We expect this will only be a little
'speed bump' in Prey's development. Nothing to worry about at all.
Richard Gray/Levelord left to join them also, but we will simply bring on a new
mapper from the net as soon as we find someone who builds really promising Duke
maps. We are looking for people with Build experience and a love of gaming.
The REST of the Prey team is still here and will stay. This includes musicians,
several artists and other map designers.
To sum it up: Prey has had a minor setback; new people will be brought on board at once
to fill the new spots; The engine technology is solid and intact; Prey lives and you
can expect it in late 1997, according to original plan, or "when it's done" :)
The only reason for this finger is to avoid the mass amounts of disinformation that
will be filling the net by now. This finger will be updated as new developments occur.
From American McGee @ id Software:
>> Here's what tokay (American McGee) said on #quake earlier today:
Prey is not going to happen. <<
Uh.. Yes it is. :D
--George Broussard, Pres., 3D Realms
SiRuS
Rob Jellinghaus <ro...@best.com> wrote in article
<4uqs9p$l...@shellx.best.com>...
THIS is the ONE main reason why I'd prefer to buy a game from 3drealms over
idsoftware. When the President posts/replies in the newsgroup, it tells
you something about the company - THEY LISTEN to the consumer and care
what's being said about their company.
August Branchesi
You need to check the thread again...He was posting a FINGER of the guy at
3DREALMS. The president at 3DREALSM did NOT post that himself.
SiRuS <si...@aimnet.com> wrote in article
<01bb8971$18667c20$1658...@iway.aimnet.com>...
James V. Kracht
In article <01bb8971$18667c20$1658...@iway.aimnet.com>
"SiRuS" <si...@aimnet.com> wrote:
>
> THIS is the ONE main reason why I'd prefer to buy a game from 3drealms over
> idsoftware. When the President posts/replies in the newsgroup, it tells
> you something about the company - THEY LISTEN to the consumer and care
> what's being said about their company.
It tells you something, sure -- that they're behind -- WAY BEHIND -- in the
3D technology race, and they know it.
THEY LISTEN, oh yes, they listen -- to the sound of doors smacking them
in the chin when their "talent" defects to use technology superior to
anything they're developing.
Carmack made an interesting point in that WIRED article about how hard
it is becoming to be a major contender in the 3D market. He said, basically,
that those who started first will always have the advantage, considering
how much work they've done compared to the new companies. It's hard to
catch up -- and 3D Realm's employees defecting so they can liscense id's
technology only reinforces the apparent truth of Carmack's statements.
Now, I don't know if this is how things actually ARE (not being a working
member of this industry) but it cetainly seems valid to me based on
appearances.
James
"QUAKE Things!" - Original "Lovecraftian" Quake fiction & digital trading cards.
http://www.netzone.com/~jfuture/chapters/quake.html
Ganryu
SiRuS <si...@aimnet.com> wrote in article
<01bb8971$18667c20$1658...@iway.aimnet.com>...
>
>
> Rob Jellinghaus <ro...@best.com> wrote in article
> <4uqs9p$l...@shellx.best.com>...
> > OK, let me be the first to follow up my posting with the results of
> > finger geo...@3drealms.com:
> >
<snip>
> >
> > --George Broussard, Pres., 3D Realms
> >
> >
> > --
> > Rob Jellinghaus ro...@unreal.com http://www.best.com/~robj
>
> THIS is the ONE main reason why I'd prefer to buy a game from 3drealms
over
> idsoftware. When the President posts/replies in the newsgroup, it tells
Uhhh... The post you have read was QUOTED by Rob Jellinghaus from the
president's .plan file over the internet. The president did not post this
in newsgroups.
> you something about the company - THEY LISTEN to the consumer and care
Nope. I guess you're wrong :-D
> what's being said about their company.
>
>
There goes your ONE main reason to buy things from 3drealms. Now.. ever
considered Quake? :-)
B Morphin
>To sum it up: Prey has had a minor setback; new people will be brought
on board at once
>to fill the new spots; The engine technology is solid and intact; Prey
lives and you
>can expect it in late 1997, according to original plan, or "when it's
done" :)
REPLY:
Is Late 1997 a typo? If not who really cares about software over a year
away.
BH
Dave Glue
James V. Kracht <jfu...@netzone.com> wrote in article
<4us2h3$10...@news.goodnet.com>...
> > THIS is the ONE main reason why I'd prefer to buy a game from 3drealms over
> > idsoftware. When the President posts/replies in the newsgroup, it tells
> > you something about the company - THEY LISTEN to the consumer and care
> > what's being said about their company.
>
> It tells you something, sure -- that they're behind -- WAY BEHIND -- in the
> 3D technology race, and they know it.
Yeah. Those idiots and that useless game, Duke, which will probably end up
selling over 500,000 copies and received rave reviews. Liscencing the build
engine out to several developers. Shadow Warrior & Blood coming as well. Boy,
they're hurtin'.
> THEY LISTEN, oh yes, they listen -- to the sound of doors smacking them
> in the chin when their "talent" defects to use technology superior to
> anything they're developing.
>
> Carmack made an interesting point in that WIRED article about how hard
> it is becoming to be a major contender in the 3D market. He said, basically,
> that those who started first will always have the advantage, considering
> how much work they've done compared to the new companies. It's hard to
> catch up -- and 3D Realm's employees defecting so they can liscense id's
> technology only reinforces the apparent truth of Carmack's statements.
Why the animosity? Why the hell would anyone want LESS competition, and LESS
games? What do you possibly have to gain from iD monopolizing the 3D engine
market?
Read the story on Next Gen's site. Who knows who's telling the truth, but it
doesn't sound as if the departing programmers acted in a professional manner,
in fact it sounds as if they were downright rude. I wouldn't have departed
that way from any job, unless I was being beaten severely ever other week.
JEf
August Branchesi wrote:
>
> You need to check the thread again...He was posting a FINGER of the guy at
> 3DREALMS. The president at 3DREALSM did NOT post that himself.
The guy being "fingered" (that sounds really weird) is George Broussard. He is the
president of 3dRealms.
JEf
Edwin Gore
If you ask me (what? You didn't?) this is a great thing, since the
level/game design on Quake is terrible, and it will be nice to actually be
able to play an ENJOYABLE game using the Quake engine. Thank God these
guys from "sucky" 3D Realms have decided to do this. Especially since I am
sure that Prey and 3D Realms will do just fine without them (not meant to
be a slight to the guys leaving, I just think 3D Realms still has a bunch
of good people working for them).
Perhaps this is iD realizing that they are way behind in the game design
race...
: It tells you something, sure -- that they're behind -- WAY BEHIND -- in the
: 3D technology race, and they know it.
: THEY LISTEN, oh yes, they listen -- to the sound of doors smacking them
: in the chin when their "talent" defects to use technology superior to
: anything they're developing.
: Carmack made an interesting point in that WIRED article about how hard
: it is becoming to be a major contender in the 3D market. He said, basically,
: that those who started first will always have the advantage, considering
: how much work they've done compared to the new companies. It's hard to
: catch up -- and 3D Realm's employees defecting so they can liscense id's
: technology only reinforces the apparent truth of Carmack's statements.
: Now, I don't know if this is how things actually ARE (not being a working
Dave Glue
B Morphin <q...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<4usmqm$l...@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>...
> Is Late 1997 a typo? If not who really cares about software over a year
> away.
Cripes, I know huh? We're getting pre-release hype _2 years_ before the
software is finished (Prey was being hyped before the end of '95)?
Wait until you guys see my game. The most incredible engine ever made,
1600*1200 resolution, 24-bit, 60 frames a second on a P90. It will be out
2012.
Patrick Deupree
: It tells you something, sure -- that they're behind -- WAY BEHIND -- in the
: 3D technology race, and they know it.
: THEY LISTEN, oh yes, they listen -- to the sound of doors smacking them
: in the chin when their "talent" defects to use technology superior to
: anything they're developing.
: Carmack made an interesting point in that WIRED article about how hard
: it is becoming to be a major contender in the 3D market. He said, basically,
: that those who started first will always have the advantage, considering
: how much work they've done compared to the new companies. It's hard to
: catch up -- and 3D Realm's employees defecting so they can liscense id's
: technology only reinforces the apparent truth of Carmack's statements.
: Now, I don't know if this is how things actually ARE (not being a working
: member of this industry) but it cetainly seems valid to me based on
: appearances.
A) I could care less who is and who is not ahead in the 3D technology
race. I care about the quality of the game that whoevers technology
produces. The word I've seen on the net says that one of the reasons
that Romero left Id is that his ideas for Quakes gameplay design were
being bypassed in favor of getting the game out the door fast.
So, I just hope that the ex-3DRealms team is not pushed to just "get
something out". Believe me, I know from experience that this sucks.
Quake is a great engine and a great multiplayer game. Lets see if
Richard Grey can make it a great single player game.
B) Just because a company had the edge on the technology doesn't mean
they will win in the end. I know it's not a game company, but take
Micrographix as an example. They were the leaders in 2D graphics editors
for the PC for quite a while, but they got so comfortable with that
success and they worked themselves into a corner where they couldn't adapt.
Heck, lets look at Duke3D for example. This was 3DRealms first 1st
person shooter, yet they provided a languange and interface to level
design that is definatly better than that provided in Doom. I'm sure
that they did a lot of research on Doom to figure out a better way to
build their tools.
C) As I said in point A, I don't care who makes the game, as long as it's
made. So far, the info I see, says that Unreal is the game for me. To
be honest, I don't think Prey was very far along because, other than the
first few mentions in magazines, I havn't seen word 1 about it in quite a
while.
So, I had counted them out already and I'm standing on the sidelines
right now waiting to see who wins the race, Id or Epic.
SiRuS
Ganryu <Like...@wa.ha.ha.com> wrote in article
<01bb89a3$c9923f20$300a40ca@kennethy>...
>
> > what's being said about their company.
> >
> >
>
> There goes your ONE main reason to buy things from 3drealms. Now.. ever
> considered Quake? :-)
>
Oh...you mean DOOM3?
Oskar Sandberg
On 13 Aug 1996 23:36:38 GMT, "SiRuS" <si...@aimnet.com> wrote:
>
>
>Rob Jellinghaus <ro...@best.com> wrote in article
<snip>
>THIS is the ONE main reason why I'd prefer to buy a game from 3drealms over
>idsoftware. When the President posts/replies in the newsgroup, it tells
>you something about the company - THEY LISTEN to the consumer and care
>what's being said about their company.
Idiot, this was not posted in the newsgroup. Rob just copied it from
the finger. Just like people copy John Carmack's finger and post it
here.
Stupid.
Oskar Sandberg
On 13 Aug 1996 13:36:47 -0700, ro...@best.com (Rob Jellinghaus) wrote:
>Hmmmm... what was that about how Prey will kick Quake's ass, again?
I fell sorta bad (not) for the guy ho uses "WaitForPrey" as his
handle.
Russell Webb
In article <dbongardD...@netcom.com>,
Dan Bongard <dbon...@netcom.com> wrote:
>
>BTW... Duke hasn't sold 500k copies yet? Quake sold that many in
>pre-release, I believe.
What's your source for that? People are reporting right now that they
are receiving registered Quake versions with order numbers #22000 through
#24000.
--
Russell Webb
rw...@panix.com
Lawrence
Dan Bongard wrote:
>
> Edwin Gore (edg...@nntp.best.com) wrote:
> : If you ask me (what? You didn't?) this is a great thing, since the
> : level/game design on Quake is terrible, and it will be nice to actually be
> : able to play an ENJOYABLE game using the Quake engine.
>
> : race...
>
> Well, Quake's level design wasn't very original in concept... dark
> rooms, scary stuff hanging from the walls, etc... but I felt it was
> effectively done, particularly in the registered levels. It is also
> great to cruise around with noclipping on and realize just how
> complex the levels really are.
>
> Duke3d, on the other hand, was generally obnoxious and immature... kind
> of like watching a Van Damme or Segal flick. I can't say I see
> 3dRealms as being worth much in terms of game design (though the Duke
> engine was good, if a bit dated). The company that really does well
> in game design, IMO, is Looking Glass...System Shock, Ultima Underworld,
> and TerraNova all had excellent design.
>
> -- Dan
Yeah, Looking Glass has made some killer games. I especially like
TerraNova alot. Now if we can get them to add in multiplayer. I guess
they plan on making a Multiplayer add-on to TN though. That will be
great. I have never played a game that captures Foot Soldier Warfare so
close to what you see in film clips. Explosions going off, projectiles
flying through the air, the feeling of wondering if you'll get waisted
by that stray shot. That one mission where you are assign to flash the
Telescope on that high platform was especially great. Those Turrets
that lob mortors are way cool. It's like I had to charge and fast with
Explosions following on my tail and hit the jump jets at just the right
time to get up on the platform to have a shootout with those bio-genetic
freaks. They've really got the warefare part down(although it's
futuristic, you really feel like you're in a battle). Now imagine If
you and some buddys could team up against other humans and Computer
fodder, but in a Campaign type layout.(mission objectives etc). I hope
the Multiplayer pack will have Campaigns, instead of just shootouts. I
think they made all the right trade offs with that game(technological
limitations).
The more I play that the more I like it. It's got some really cool
intricasies. Looking Glass seems to always have cool little intricate
things that make the game get better as you play it more.
Andreas
Im not sure but i think edg...@nntp.best.com (Edwin Gore) said...
>
>If you ask me (what? You didn't?) this is a great thing, since the
>level/game design on Quake is terrible,
And i suppose you have played the registered version, so that you can judge
the level design? (game design in Quake is doom, nothing special)
>and it will be nice to actually be
>able to play an ENJOYABLE game using the Quake engine. Thank God these
>guys from "sucky" 3D Realms have decided to do this. Especially since I am
>sure that Prey and 3D Realms will do just fine without them (not meant to
>be a slight to the guys leaving, I just think 3D Realms still has a bunch
>of good people working for them).
>
>Perhaps this is iD realizing that they are way behind in the game design
>race...
What the hell has id to with this? The 3drealms guys are leaving for
*HYPNOTIC* design, they will licese the Quake engine. The "defected"
3drealms guys are not joining id software to work on Quake2 or something
like that.
BTW i bet 100 $ that this thread will sooner or later turn into another
Quake vs. Duke3d "battle", sigh.
--
Andreas.
"...two roads diverged in a wood, and i took the one less traveled by,
and that has made all the difference."
-R. Frost.
Oskar Sandberg
On 14 Aug 1996 14:36:54 GMT, "Dave Glue" <dav...@interlog.com> wrote:
>Yeah. Those idiots and that useless game, Duke, which will probably end up
>selling over 500,000 copies and received rave reviews. Liscencing the build
>engine out to several developers. Shadow Warrior & Blood coming as well. Boy,
>they're hurtin'.
>
Doom2 sold 2 million copies and Quake has already had 500,000 orders.
Shadow Warrior and Blood are both based on dated technology and the
customers know it. They feel like all the wolf3d clones did after Doom
came out, crap.
There staff is leaving one after the other, 3 important members of the
design team of there quake clone have quit within 3 days to two
different companies. Last update there answer to quake was due in A
YEAR AND A HALF, but that was before one of the 2 main programmers
quit the project.
>> Carmack made an interesting point in that WIRED article about how hard
>> it is becoming to be a major contender in the 3D market. He said, basically,
>> that those who started first will always have the advantage, considering
>> how much work they've done compared to the new companies. It's hard to
>> catch up -- and 3D Realm's employees defecting so they can liscense id's
>> technology only reinforces the apparent truth of Carmack's statements.
Actually it was Abrash who said that, based on what he had seen of
Carmack and other actors within the industry.
>Why the animosity? Why the hell would anyone want LESS competition, and LESS
>games? What do you possibly have to gain from iD monopolizing the 3D engine
>market?
We don't, we just look at this objectively and see that 3drealms is a
crap company that has never made anything but crap games (with the
exception of when they published for id) and as it looks now are going
to continue making cap games.
>Read the story on Next Gen's site. Who knows who's telling the truth, but it
>doesn't sound as if the departing programmers acted in a professional manner,
>in fact it sounds as if they were downright rude. I wouldn't have departed
>that way from any job, unless I was being beaten severely ever other week.
Well maybe they had good reason to dislike 3d realms and not want to
say goodbye to them.
Take my word for it, something is _rotten_ at apogee.
Oskar Sandberg
On 14 Aug 1996 20:18:07 GMT, andreas....@mailbox.swipnet.se
(Andreas) wrote:
>BTW i bet 100 $ that this thread will sooner or later turn into another
>Quake vs. Duke3d "battle", sigh.
>
It doesn't need to, Duke is 100000000000000000 times better anyways.
PS If I get any email as a response to this post I will dissect my
neighbor.
Andreas
Im not sure but i think dav...@interlog.com (Dave Glue) said...
over
>> > idsoftware. When the President posts/replies in the newsgroup, it
tells
>> > you something about the company - THEY LISTEN to the consumer and care
>> > what's being said about their company.
>>
the
>> 3D technology race, and they know it.
>
>selling over 500,000 copies and received rave reviews. Liscencing the
build
>engine out to several developers. Shadow Warrior & Blood coming as well.
Boy,
>they're hurtin'.
He was talking about *technology*, not game design. If you tell me Build is
brilliant and new technology im gonna laugh.(Quake and Prey however is)
Duke3d was a *design* masterpiece(even if im not really a fan, i see its
qualities), they could have used a souped up Hexen engine and still made
roughly the same game.
>> THEY LISTEN, oh yes, they listen -- to the sound of doors smacking them
>> in the chin when their "talent" defects to use technology superior to
>> anything they're developing.
>>
>> Carmack made an interesting point in that WIRED article about how hard
>> it is becoming to be a major contender in the 3D market. He said,
basically,
>> that those who started first will always have the advantage, considering
>> how much work they've done compared to the new companies. It's hard to
>> catch up -- and 3D Realm's employees defecting so they can liscense id's
>> technology only reinforces the apparent truth of Carmack's statements.
>
>Why the animosity? Why the hell would anyone want LESS competition, and
LESS
>games? What do you possibly have to gain from iD monopolizing the 3D
engine
>market?
What animosity? Carmack is telling the truth, unless other companies start
working even faster(wich most of them are doing), id software will *always*
be ahead in the technology race. I mean slightly enanched versions of the
Quake engine will last easily a year or more(Romero's company, Hipnotic inc,
Raven etc), and by then Carmack will be pretty far with his new engine(read
the Wired article, he is *always* playing with new engines). While the other
the companies are just starting.
(although im quite certain that this will change, Doom -> Duke3d ~2, Quake
-> Prey ~1 year, <Game after Quake> -> <Game after Prey> 6 months, etc)
This is, asuming the "late 1997" is a typo, if it is'nt, who the hell cares
about Prey then? (i for one will be in the army, ohhh-ho the joy of
manditory military service ;-)
>Read the story on Next Gen's site. Who knows who's telling the truth, but
it
>doesn't sound as if the departing programmers acted in a professional
manner,
>in fact it sounds as if they were downright rude. I wouldn't have departed
>that way from any job, unless I was being beaten severely ever other week.
Exactly and there has to be a good reason for this, American McGee's comment
on #quake was, "Prey ain't gonna happen", maybe 3drealms are so far behind
and having so much trouble creating a fast and good engine that they are
basicly leaving a sinking ship?
(i for one hope that Prey comes out by late 1996 and kicks ass, another fun
game to play, why not?)
Oskar Sandberg
On 14 Aug 1996 14:11:34 GMT, q...@ix.netcom.com(B Morphin ) wrote:
>REPLY:
>
>Is Late 1997 a typo? If not who really cares about software over a year
>away.
I started reading quaketalk the winter 94. That would make one and a
half years before release.
Of course, without Tom Hall, they have a another "minor setback."
Raven
dbon...@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) wrote:
>Well, Quake's level design wasn't very original in concept... dark
>rooms, scary stuff hanging from the walls, etc... but I felt it was
>effectively done, particularly in the registered levels. It is also
>great to cruise around with noclipping on and realize just how
>complex the levels really are.
Have you got the pirated version?
If so, tsk tsk.
---------------------------------
This Tagquote is SHAREWARE. To
continue reading, mail me your
credit card numbers..............
---------------------------------
Raven
>> THIS is the ONE main reason why I'd prefer to buy a game from 3drealms
>over
I prefer it because the games are better.
Jamesson
Greg Helton wrote:
>
> mis...@csc.canterbury.ac.nz wrote:
> >Doesn't this strike anyone else as strange? Prey has as much in common with
> >Build as Quake does with Doom (so we are told), so what possible reason could
> >there be for _Build_ experience as the only level making qualification
> >accepted? Why could Build experience indicate how good someone will be with
> >Prey _better_ than say, Dark Forces, or Hexen, or Marathon, or Doom, or....
>
> >The only qualifying aspect I can think of is that Build was no availible until
> >very recently, thus anyone who has released good levels must also be a fairly
> >fast learner and level builder. (But to me, the other edge seems sharper - that
> >really good designers will quite possibly be engauged in more demanding
> >projects, and so not have anything to show ATM...)
>
> >However, if the above is the reason, the Quake levels would be a better measure
> >than Build...
>
> >Perhaps I'm reading too much into this, but he was _very_ specific that it was
> >Duke levels they were after...
>
> >Anyone care to try and cast any light on this?
> >Damn, now my curiosity is aroused... :)
>
> Richard Grey was working on Shadow Warrior in addition to anything else he
> might have been working on. It seems fairly logical that they want someone
> who will be able to work on that-and perhaps Blood-in addition to Prey.
Shadow warrior seems to me like a doom wannabe, however blood I find
rather attractive. Hey, only one thing's for sure - whatever they do,
it'll be better than Duke3d.
--
________________________________________________________
Poof, the money, it interests me not, I am a hacker...
How much?
Jamesson J...@Lvalue.com
________________________________________________________
Jamesson
Mark Kusec wrote:
>
> > "Dave Glue" <dav...@interlog.com> wrote in article
> <01bb8abb$0735bba0$LocalHost@dave-s>...
> >
> > Craig Murch <I...@hate.junk.email> wrote in article
> > <321428...@hate.junk.email>...
> >
> > > version). Dark Forces had everything except multiplayer and high-res
> > > that Duke
> > > had.
> >
> > No sloping floors. Makes a big difference in level design IMO. As
> well, I
> > didn't see many room over room examples in Dark Forces, could you point
> one
> > out?
>
> Go play Dark Forces for 5 minutes and you'll find such examples. One of
> the later levels, if you'll recall, was a 6-storey prison complex. In
> this regard (as well as jumping, crouching, and looking up/down) Dark
> Forces was a big improvement over Doom. Duke making the same
> accomplishments 2 years later did NOT impress me much. In fact, Duke felt
> like the designers wanted to make a multiplayer version of Dark Forces.
> Even the sound of picking up health was the same as it was in Dark
> Forces.
>
> > Duh. The engine in Duke is far more complex than Doom for godsakes.
> Look
> > up/down, sector over sector, sloping floors.
>
> Other engines had accomplished all that except the sloping floors, and
> none were as slow as Doom (although Hexen came close). You keep touting
> Duke's high-res modes but Descent beat everyone to the punch in that
> respect.
>
> I don't disagree that Duke is a fun game, but personally, 1) I found that
> Dukematch became boring fast, and 2) aside from sloping floors I found
> Duke to be nothing more than a collection of ideas from other, existing
> 1st-person games. Duke felt like a nostalgic tribute to Doom and Dark
> Forces. Admittedly Duke got the last word in on 2.5D games, but as far as
> I'm concerned, that chapter of history is now closed.
>
> Regards,
> Mark Kusec
> mku...@direct.ca
> Richmond, BC, Canada
Actually, Duke3d felt to me more of a sexded-up bad doom wannabe. There
is nothing whatsoever in the game (but the multilevels) that is better
than doom. I sent an email to 3drealms saying as much. I haven't gotten
a reply to this day.
Mike Ching
On 14 Aug 1996 23:57:37 GMT, SiRuS <si...@aimnet.com> wrote:
>
>
>Ganryu <Like...@wa.ha.ha.com> wrote in article
><01bb89a3$c9923f20$300a40ca@kennethy>...
>>
>> >
>> >
>>
>> considered Quake? :-)
>>
>
>Oh...you mean DOOM3?
PC Gamer quotes Romero saying "Quake and Doom are pretty much the same.
You go through, you kill stuff, you pick stuff up. Quake just looks and
plays better." It appears that their goal was to make Doom3. And of course
it only plays better if you have a high end system but I still like it on
my Am5x86-133.
Mike Ching
Charlie Wiederhold
>It tells you something, sure -- that they're behind -- WAY BEHIND -- in the
>3D technology race, and they know it.
Personally, I don't care who is first. The person who get's the best,
and loudest word in last is the one everyone will remember. Except for
the case of Doom. That will be the one remembered. But... when people
say, who made the best sprite based 3d game ever? 3D Realms.
>THEY LISTEN, oh yes, they listen -- to the sound of doors smacking them
>in the chin when their "talent" defects to use technology superior to
>anything they're developing.
Hmm... from speaking in person to the guys from 3D Realms at the Rodeo
Shootout, I don't really recall them feeling like doors were smacking
them in the chin. As far as the talent leaving, if they had gone to id
I think there would be problems. But, they went, to attemt to make
their own place in the 3D gaming scene. Trust me, 3D Realms will
survive this minor setback, and move on to continue to forge their
place in the 3D game market.
>Carmack made an interesting point in that WIRED article about how hard
>it is becoming to be a major contender in the 3D market. He said, basically,
>that those who started first will always have the advantage, considering
>how much work they've done compared to the new companies. It's hard to
>catch up -- and 3D Realm's employees defecting so they can liscense id's
>technology only reinforces the apparent truth of Carmack's statements.
Yes! Those who start first WILL have the advantage. BUT!!!! They can't
stand still. With Romero leaving, I don't know where that leaves id.
3D Realms did not lose their major concept people. I think the loss of
Richard Grey was probably the biggest loss for them. Like someone else
said in another post, I can't wait to see what he can do with the
Quake game. Maybe he will be able to make some single player levels
that I actually have fun in, and want to go back to and play again...
like I did in Duke. But, you forget, they still have Allen Blum. They
are going to be jsut fine.
>Now, I don't know if this is how things actually ARE (not being a working
>member of this industry) but it cetainly seems valid to me based on
>appearances.
You also aren't paying attention to what is going on in the industry.
3D realms has licensed out the Build engine for Shadow Warrior, Blood,
blah blah. Quake was first... so what. Wolfenstein 3D was first also.
I have said it before, and I will say it again... I can't wait to see
what will be done with this technology.
The 3D Realms team is going to be just fine, and will continue to work
just as hard if not harder then everyone else.
Charlie Wiederhold - Duke Nukem 3D Rodeo Shootout
We're looking for the best gun slingers in Texas!
http://rampages.onramp.net/~bminer/duke/index.htm
wie...@mail.utexas.edu
Charlie Wiederhold
>REPLY:
>Is Late 1997 a typo? If not who really cares about software over a year
>away.
Hmmm... how long ago was the hype started about Quake? Have you
already forgotten about the years it took to develop Quake, and the
release was rushed! That is why Romero left. They rushed the
production just to get it out, and thus the quality of Quake has not
reached it's potential. A year away is not bad. How many movies do you
see during the summer, that have previews for new movies that say
"Coming Next Summer!". How long do you think it takes to design a game
like that?
mis...@csc.canterbury.ac.nz
>> Richard Gray/Levelord left to join them also, but we will simply bring on
> a new
>> mapper from the net as soon as we find someone who builds really
> promising Duke
>> maps. We are looking for people with Build experience and a love of
> gaming.
Dan Bongard
Dave Glue (dav...@interlog.com) wrote:
: James V. Kracht <jfu...@netzone.com> wrote in article
: <4us2h3$10...@news.goodnet.com>...
:> It tells you something, sure -- that they're behind -- WAY BEHIND -- in the
:> 3D technology race, and they know it.
: Yeah. Those idiots and that useless game, Duke, which will probably end up
: selling over 500,000 copies and received rave reviews. Liscencing the build
: engine out to several developers. Shadow Warrior & Blood coming as well. Boy,
: they're hurtin'.
Um... yes, exactly.
Duke was a Doom-style engine, slightly improved... released about
two years after Doom and only a few months before the next big
jump in 3d-shooter technology... Quake
Prey will be a Quake-style engine, presumably improved, and if the
current schedule is right it will be released about 1.5 years after
Quake. It looks like 3dRealms is catching up, slowly, but there can
be no doubt that they are way, way behind.
BTW... Duke hasn't sold 500k copies yet? Quake sold that many in
pre-release, I believe.
: Read the story on Next Gen's site. Who knows who's telling the truth, but it
: doesn't sound as if the departing programmers acted in a professional manner,
: in fact it sounds as if they were downright rude. I wouldn't have departed
: that way from any job, unless I was being beaten severely ever other week.
Well, software engineers are generally treated like disposable diapers
by management; lord knows I know enough disgruntled programmers -- the
result of this is that loyalty is pretty rare and jumping ship for
the next better offer is quite common. Fortunately I myself like my job. :)
-- Dan
Dan Bongard
Edwin Gore (edg...@nntp.best.com) wrote:
: If you ask me (what? You didn't?) this is a great thing, since the
: level/game design on Quake is terrible, and it will be nice to actually be
: able to play an ENJOYABLE game using the Quake engine.
: Perhaps this is iD realizing that they are way behind in the game design
: race...
Well, Quake's level design wasn't very original in concept... dark
rooms, scary stuff hanging from the walls, etc... but I felt it was
effectively done, particularly in the registered levels. It is also
great to cruise around with noclipping on and realize just how
complex the levels really are.
Duke3d, on the other hand, was generally obnoxious and immature... kind
Greg Helton
SiRuS <si...@aimnet.com> wrote:
>> THIS is the ONE main reason why I'd prefer to buy a game from 3drealms
>> you something about the company - THEY LISTEN to the consumer and care
"August Branchesi" <mu...@visi.net> wrote:
>You need to check the thread again...He was posting a FINGER of the guy at
>3DREALMS. The president at 3DREALSM did NOT post that himself.
So what? It's not like Mr. Broussard hasn't posted before. Then again,
Romero posted on occasion as well.
TJ
"Dave Glue" <dav...@interlog.com> wrote:
>Wait until you guys see my game. The most incredible engine ever made,
>1600*1200 resolution, 24-bit, 60 frames a second on a P90. It will be out
>2012.
REALLY? Hey, can I have a beta version NOW, please????
PLEASE???
TJ
Smoke Crack and Worship Satan
In article <4utrsp$c...@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>, wie...@mail.utexas.edu (Charlie
Wiederhold) wrote:
> >It tells you something, sure -- that they're behind -- WAY BEHIND -- in the
> >3D technology race, and they know it.
>
> and loudest word in last is the one everyone will remember. Except for
> the case of Doom. That will be the one remembered. But... when people
> say, who made the best sprite based 3d game ever? 3D Realms.
Wow, doesn't it just give you the warm fuzzies? Best sprite 3D game ever. What
an honor!
Never mind that Quake is a much more popular networked game. Duke had its
(brief) day in the sun, and it is a good game, but it SUCKS at network play. The
levels are too goddam big, you can't join a game in progress, you can't play
over internet without KALI and even then it's dog slow.
Duke will be remembered as an interesting cul-de-sac. Quake is the beginning of
something much better.
>
> Hmm... from speaking in person to the guys from 3D Realms at the Rodeo
> Shootout, I don't really recall them feeling like doors were smacking
> them in the chin. As far as the talent leaving, if they had gone to id
> I think there would be problems. But, they went, to attemt to make
> their own place in the 3D gaming scene. Trust me, 3D Realms will
> survive this minor setback, and move on to continue to forge their
> place in the 3D game market.
>
Yeah, losing three developers is no big deal. They're screwed, dude! Sure, they
have the Duke3D engine, but in the game business the future is *everything*.
They just set their future back 6-12 months. Unreal will be out, Jedi Knight
will be out, Quake II and Hexen II.. and no Prey in sight.
I'm sure they'll get over it eventually, but it's a major setback.
>
> Yes! Those who start first WILL have the advantage. BUT!!!! They can't
> stand still. With Romero leaving, I don't know where that leaves id.
> 3D Realms did not lose their major concept people. I think the loss of
> Richard Grey was probably the biggest loss for them. Like someone else
> said in another post, I can't wait to see what he can do with the
> Quake game. Maybe he will be able to make some single player levels
> that I actually have fun in, and want to go back to and play again...
> like I did in Duke. But, you forget, they still have Allen Blum. They
> are going to be jsut fine.
>
Romero quit because he wasn't doing jack there. He just designed levels, which
was the problem. He wanted to design whole games. So that doesn't hurt Id,
they're becoming more and more an R&D project-- making game engines that are
extensible, and heck even now there are at least three companies working on
Quake-engine based games: raven, romero, and the old prey guys.
> You also aren't paying attention to what is going on in the industry.
> 3D realms has licensed out the Build engine for Shadow Warrior, Blood,
> blah blah. Quake was first... so what. Wolfenstein 3D was first also.
> I have said it before, and I will say it again... I can't wait to see
> what will be done with this technology.
>
Sectors and sprites are boring, in the same way that 2D scrollers are more
boring than a 3D sector game. The only advantage is that you can put a shitload
more sectors and sprites on the screen since the CPU overhead is lower.
Smoke Crack and Worship Satan
In article <01bb89ee$2e019ce0$dc98d4c7@dave-s>, "Dave Glue" <dav...@interlog.co
m> wrote:
>
> James V. Kracht <jfu...@netzone.com> wrote in article
> <4us2h3$10...@news.goodnet.com>...
>
> over
> > > idsoftware. When the President posts/replies in the newsgroup, it tells
> > > you something about the company - THEY LISTEN to the consumer and care
> > > what's being said about their company.
> >
> > 3D technology race, and they know it.
>
> selling over 500,000 copies and received rave reviews. Liscencing the build
> engine out to several developers. Shadow Warrior & Blood coming as well. Boy,
> they're hurtin'.
>
The games are good, but I worry that their success will encourage other cheesy
sector/sprite games rather than the true 3D games that we're going to need to
have any competition with consoles and their 3D hardware.
In a nutshell, I'd much rather play Prey than Duke, so now that Prey is off the
horizon, 3D Realms just got a lot less interesting to me. It's not their fault,
but as you pointed out, the way the guys left does suggest something was
fundamentally WRONG there. No idea what it was, but that's not normal.
SiRuS
Oskar Sandberg <m-1...@mailbox.swipnet.se> wrote in article
<3211eb4e...@nntpserver.swip.net>...
> On 13 Aug 1996 23:36:38 GMT, "SiRuS" <si...@aimnet.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Rob Jellinghaus <ro...@best.com> wrote in article
>
> <snip>
>
> >THIS is the ONE main reason why I'd prefer to buy a game from 3drealms
over
> >idsoftware. When the President posts/replies in the newsgroup, it tells
> >you something about the company - THEY LISTEN to the consumer and care
> >what's being said about their company.
>
> Idiot, this was not posted in the newsgroup. Rob just copied it from
> the finger. Just like people copy John Carmack's finger and post it
> here.
>
> Stupid.
>
It's amazing what kind of dopefish [you] one can catch [me] just by
purposly posting something incorrectly.
Heh...
Dan Bongard
Dave Glue (dav...@interlog.com) wrote:
: Dan Bongard <dbon...@netcom.com> wrote in article
: <dbongardD...@netcom.com>...
: > Duke was a Doom-style engine, slightly improved... released about
: > two years after Doom and only a few months before the next big
: > jump in 3d-shooter technology... Quake
: Pfft. "Slightly" improved?
: High res modes
I only consider this a slight improvement.
:look up/down
Not "look up/down"; rise up/down. This is one reason why looking
up and down was so nausea-inducing. I consider it a serious
_weakness_ in the engine, not an improvement.
: sector over sector
Well, faked sector-over-sector. A nice frill, but too limited to
be useful. It does provide an extra bit of realism, but frankly
Marathon beat 3dRealms to it by a year or two.
: angled floors
This is another improvement, yes.
: hardly just a "slightly" improved engine.
Compared to the true 3d environment and physics model of Quake,
with QuakeC to rewrite virtually every aspect of the game but
the menus... yeah. Duke's achievments don't add up to much in
comparason, given how recent a game Duke is.
: > Prey will be a Quake-style engine, presumably improved, and if the
: > current schedule is right it will be released about 1.5 years after
: > Quake. It looks like 3dRealms is catching up, slowly, but there can
: > be no doubt that they are way, way behind.
: Who cares? An engine does not make the game, and we'll still be seeing games
: based on the Quake engine then anyways.
I didn't say I cared if they were far behind; I was following up
to someones assertion that Duke3d proved Apogee WASN'T far behind.
-- Dan
Smoke Crack and Worship Satan
In article <4utrsn$c...@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>, wie...@mail.utexas.edu (Charlie
Wiederhold) wrote:
> >REPLY:
>
> >Is Late 1997 a typo? If not who really cares about software over a year
> >away.
>
> Hmmm... how long ago was the hype started about Quake? Have you
> already forgotten about the years it took to develop Quake, and the
> release was rushed! That is why Romero left.
YOUR OPINION. I believe it's because Carmack was controlling the game.
If you read the C|Net interview with Romero in the GameCenter, he says
http://www.cnet.com/Gamecenter/News/August96/081496a.html
I firmly and deeply believe in game design as the be-all and end-all of a game.
My new company's philosophy and structure places the game designer at the top of
the development wedge, where I personally believe they belong.
Well, he wasn't getting that at Id. The game ENGINE was the center of
development, not the DESIGNER.
> They rushed the
> production just to get it out, and thus the quality of Quake has not
> reached it's potential.
Sounds like sour grapes to me; another Duke fan bitter that their love-child,
Prey, isn't going to happen for a looooong time. Quake is a killer game. Could
it have been better? Sure, but then so could Duke. Besides, Quake is next
generation stuff, not a mature sector-based engine. Naturally it's going to take
a Quake II and Hexen II to really strut its stuff. Also helps to have P6
machines and 3D accelerators become mainstream.
> A year away is not bad. How many movies do you
> see during the summer, that have previews for new movies that say
> "Coming Next Summer!". How long do you think it takes to design a game
> like that?
>
More sour grapes.
>
> Charlie Wiederhold - Duke Nukem 3D Rodeo Shootout
> We're looking for the best gun slingers in Texas!
> http://rampages.onramp.net/~bminer/duke/index.htm
> wie...@mail.utexas.edu
>
What a surprise! A Duke Nukem fan!
James Kelly
mis...@csc.canterbury.ac.nz wrote:
>>> Richard Gray/Levelord left to join them also, but we will simply bring on
>> a new
>>> mapper from the net as soon as we find someone who builds really
>> promising Duke
>>> maps. We are looking for people with Build experience and a love of
>> gaming.
>Doesn't this strike anyone else as strange? Prey has as much in common with
>Build as Quake does with Doom (so we are told), so what possible reason could
>there be for _Build_ experience as the only level making qualification
>accepted? Why could Build experience indicate how good someone will be with
>Prey _better_ than say, Dark Forces, or Hexen, or Marathon, or Doom, or....
When I was making Duke levels (practicing my thoughts while awaiting
Quake), I read in a lot of stuff on the net. One of the things I came
across was a response from one of the 3DRealms guys to a mention of a
NEW Build editor he found on the Net. The response stated that the
editor in question was the suped up editor for Prey. He stated that
that version of Build would not be compatable with Duke.
Prey does use the Build editor from what I recall. It just uses a
suped up version. Thus, people with Build experiense should be able
to make the transision faster than others. All other things being
equal (design quality, etc).
JKFram
Dave Glue
Dan Bongard <dbon...@netcom.com> wrote in article
<dbongardD...@netcom.com>...
> Duke was a Doom-style engine, slightly improved... released about
> two years after Doom and only a few months before the next big
> jump in 3d-shooter technology... Quake
Pfft. "Slightly" improved? High res modes, look up/down, sector over sector,
angled floors, hardly just a "slightly" improved engine.
And sure, Quake is more complex. Which is why you need a P133 to get 30fps in
VGA, whereas my DX4-120 can do it with Duke. I love Quake as well, but Apogee
got a lot of fans by making a fun, playable 3D game that blazed on most
hardware currently out there.
> Prey will be a Quake-style engine, presumably improved, and if the
> current schedule is right it will be released about 1.5 years after
> Quake. It looks like 3dRealms is catching up, slowly, but there can
> be no doubt that they are way, way behind.
Who cares? An engine does not make the game, and we'll still be seeing games
based on the Quake engine then anyways.
> BTW... Duke hasn't sold 500k copies yet? Quake sold that many in
> pre-release, I believe.
I have no idea how many Duke has sold, it was a guess. It's probably quite a
bit more by now.
Dave Glue
mis...@csc.canterbury.ac.nz wrote in article <1996Aug15.124516@cantva>...
> Doesn't this strike anyone else as strange? Prey has as much in common with
> Build as Quake does with Doom (so we are told), so what possible reason could
> there be for _Build_ experience as the only level making qualification
> accepted? Why could Build experience indicate how good someone will be with
> Prey _better_ than say, Dark Forces, or Hexen, or Marathon, or Doom, or....
Not really. I would find it strange to have someone that was an excellent Doom
level designer who got completely lost with Duke. Sure, it would take him/her
a while to learn the abilities of the new environment, but basically the skills
carry over- level design, placements of weapons/rejuvenation pills, style and
"theme" of level, etc. Frankly, if someone could design levels with Doom/Build
restrictions, they might just be truly set free with a more advanced engine.
Dave Glue
Mike Ching <mch...@dilbert.ching.org> wrote in article
<4utrsn$t...@viper.inow.com>...
This was _after_ the release, no doubt. Before that, the hype for Quake was
anything but restrained, and iD specifically avoided calling it Doom3. Romero
calls it that now because that's what it ended up, but they certainly weren't
giving that impression before.
That said, I really like it- even on my 486DX4-120 which is getting less than
10fps in combat. Nobody does monsters and atmosphere like iD.
Micheal Keane
In article <01bb8971$18667c20$1658...@iway.aimnet.com>,
SiRuS <si...@aimnet.com> wrote:
>THIS is the ONE main reason why I'd prefer to buy a game from 3drealms over
>idsoftware. When the President posts/replies in the newsgroup, it tells
>you something about the company - THEY LISTEN to the consumer and care
>what's being said about their company.
But the president ISN'T posting to the newsgroup. If you read the message,
you'd see that someone was printing the finger of the president. So,
that's that main reason again? =-)
--
Micheal Keane(ae...@u.washington.edu)
Get the Nowhere Man FAQ at my webpage: http://weber.u.washington.edu/~aexia
Petition Fox and tell them you want a DOCTOR WHO series in the Fall!
Join the Church of Last Thursday of Queen Maeve the Cat and be saved!
David Frost
> Doesn't this strike anyone else as strange? Prey has as much in common with
> Build as Quake does with Doom (so we are told), so what possible reason could
> there be for _Build_ experience as the only level making qualification
> accepted? Why could Build experience indicate how good someone will be with
> Prey _better_ than say, Dark Forces, or Hexen, or Marathon, or Doom, or....
I don't see there's any mystery here at all, to be honest. The simple
fact is that Build is 3DRealm's product, whereas Quake and Doom are
id's. It seems quite sensible that 3D Realms should ask for people with
experience in one of their own products rather than their competitors.
If anything else was the case, they would be admitting that their
products weren't the best!
David Frost
Paul Campbell
<<<<<<
Yeah, Looking Glass has made some killer games. I especially like
TerraNova alot.
>>>>>>>
Shame about the engine though - jerky on 320x200 on my p120 !. It makes
you appreatiate a genuinly efficient engine like Quake.
Paul C.
UK.
Majin
nom...@nomail.com (Smoke Crack and Worship Satan) wrote:
>> Charlie Wiederhold - Duke Nukem 3D Rodeo Shootout
>> We're looking for the best gun slingers in Texas!
>> http://rampages.onramp.net/~bminer/duke/index.htm
>> wie...@mail.utexas.edu
>>
>
>
>What a surprise! A Duke Nukem fan!
You're crossposting to ag.apogee, ag.duke3d, and csip.games.action.
Expect more of them than in rgc.quake.misc.
--KCI
Kent H Lundberg
> You also aren't paying attention to what is going on in the industry.
> 3D realms has licensed out the Build engine for Shadow Warrior, Blood,
> blah blah. Quake was first... so what. Wolfenstein 3D was first also.
Actually, Ultima Underworld was first. What amazes me about Quake is
that, despite all it's amazing 3D technology, it's still a "run around
the dungeon and shoot everything that moves" game. I mean really, it's
Doom 3, and not much more.
Oh, a pixel changed, blam blam blam, oh a bigger gun, BLAM BLAM BLAM.
How many shooter games can you play? In this regard, Quake is still an
evolutionary step. For real first person 3D gameplay, you can't beat
System Shock. For *real* advances in 3D technology, look at Terra Nova.
--> Kent.
Stephen Doss
All the talk seems to center around 3DRealms and id. Makes sense since
it started off talking about Preys desingers leaving. But lets take
this another direction. These two companys are not the only fish in
the pond. Making predictions about the best game is like making
predictions about where computer technology will be by the year 2000.
Dont forget that Lucas Arts and Epic are working on "true" 3D FPP
games and both as far as i know are due out by the end of the year. If
Unreal from Epic lives up to its hype ( I know no game has done that
yet) it looks like the one to beat in the near future, especially the
use of Intels MMX.
As much as I like Quake, by the way there need to be a twelve step
program for breaking the net Quake addiction and Ill be the first to
sign up :-), it still didnt give me the sense of awe i felt when Doom
first came out after playing Wolfenstein for so many hours. Think back
and Im sure you can remember the first time you loaded Doom on your
computer......amazing!!!!!!
Well thats my two cents worth any comments are appreciated.
Stephen Doss ( Darkelf on numerous Quake servers)
Charlie Wiederhold
nom...@nomail.com (Smoke Crack and Worship Satan) wrote:
Again, I don't know why I care what a person with a handle like that
has to say to me. Bah!
>Wow, doesn't it just give you the warm fuzzies? Best sprite 3D game ever. What
>an honor!
Well, whenever we find out who wins in the end with the best true 3D
game, it will be the same type effect. When people talk about old
arcade games, they think of them as classics. Since the sprite based
3d games are still fairly new, we ignore them. People ignored all
those older games because, yes they sucked by current gaming
standards. But, now people have produced CD's with these games in
their exact format from the arcade... to be played on your PC. Why on
earth would we want to play games like Joust, etc? Because A) They are
a classic, and we can remember pumping the quarters into those
machines. B) Because we realize just how much fun they were. Give it
about 10 years. Duke will not be lost in the pile of old 3d shooters,
as Doom will also survive. But, Quake will probably get lost in the
shuffle when the games that actually pull out all the potential in the
true 3D engines. Being first has it's advantages, but in the long run
those who come after tend to be the ones remembered.
>Never mind that Quake is a much more popular networked game. Duke had its
>(brief) day in the sun, and it is a good game, but it SUCKS at network play. The
>levels are too goddam big, you can't join a game in progress, you can't play
>over internet without KALI and even then it's dog slow.
This is Quake's glaring bright spot. The multiplayer capabilities. And
that is fantastic. As for Duke sucking at Network play... when we have
8 player network games going on at The Rodeo Shootout, things seem to
go great, and the players have a blast. Hmm... oh well.
>Duke will be remembered as an interesting cul-de-sac. Quake is the beginning of
>something much better.
Of course it is the beginning. Duke had the last word in an era of 2
1/2D games. We'll see who wins the true 3D gaming scene.
>Yeah, losing three developers is no big deal. They're screwed, dude! Sure, they
>have the Duke3D engine, but in the game business the future is *everything*.
>They just set their future back 6-12 months. Unreal will be out, Jedi Knight
>will be out, Quake II and Hexen II.. and no Prey in sight.
>I'm sure they'll get over it eventually, but it's a major setback.
We all can't really say anything because we have no idea what is going
to happen. We just have to watch and see. Until then, I am going to
sit back and just enjoy what I have to play for now. With those people
leaving, that is just business. It happens in normal business, it
happens in sports... that is just a part of business. How do you think
competitors arise in the gaming scene. If Romero and the guys from 3D
Realms who defected can make a company that beats them all, then that
is great! But, when companies lose people... they recover, and move
on.
>Romero quit because he wasn't doing jack there. He just designed levels, which
>was the problem. He wanted to design whole games. So that doesn't hurt Id,
>they're becoming more and more an R&D project-- making game engines that are
>extensible, and heck even now there are at least three companies working on
>Quake-engine based games: raven, romero, and the old prey guys.
>> You also aren't paying attention to what is going on in the industry.
>> 3D realms has licensed out the Build engine for Shadow Warrior, Blood,
>> blah blah. Quake was first... so what. Wolfenstein 3D was first also.
>> I have said it before, and I will say it again... I can't wait to see
>> what will be done with this technology.
>>
>Sectors and sprites are boring, in the same way that 2D scrollers are more
>boring than a 3D sector game. The only advantage is that you can put a shitload
>more sectors and sprites on the screen since the CPU overhead is lower.
Well, I still have fun blasting my friends in Duke multiplayer. I am
sorry, but just because a game _looks_ great, doesn't make it fun. If
that is what you think of as fun, you are forgetting what the games
are desinged for in the first place.
*************************************************************
Charlie Wiederhold
WiederWeb - RTS Archive: http://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~wieder/ROTT/
wie...@mail.utexas.edu
We're looking for the best gun slingers in Texas!
http://rampages.onramp.net/~bminer/duke/index.htm
University of Texas at Austin - Computer Sciences
UT Longhorn Band
Dave Glue
Craig Murch <I...@hate.junk.email> wrote in article
<321428...@hate.junk.email>...
> WinDoom had high-res modes,
No, it didn't. WinDoom simply scaled 320*200 up with no resolution enhancement
whatsoever. Win95 Final/Ultimate/etc Doom, released just recently however,
does have true 640*480 modes. WinDoom was never released regardless.
> version). Dark Forces had everything except multiplayer and high-res
> that Duke
> had.
No sloping floors. Makes a big difference in level design IMO. As well, I
didn't see many room over room examples in Dark Forces, could you point one
out?
> Why does everyone keep praising Apogee/3DRealms for Duke being so fast?
> It isn't.
> Sorry, but Doom ran perfectly in 320*200 on my (now upgraded) DX2-66.
> Duke SUCKED
> on the same machine in the same resolution.
Duh. The engine in Duke is far more complex than Doom for godsakes. Look
up/down, sector over sector, sloping floors.
> I doubt it. No one I know bought it.
Heck, that's some survey. To think of all the money we've been wasting on
polls, when we just had to ask one person.
Dave Glue
Smoke Crack and Worship Satan <nom...@nomail.com> wrote in article
<4uuer3$g...@nntp.crl.com>...
> The games are good, but I worry that their success will encourage other
cheesy
> sector/sprite games rather than the true 3D games that we're going to need to
> have any competition with consoles and their 3D hardware.
What consoles? Nintendo 64 and it's $100 cartridges, perhaps- but iD has
already stated Quake will not be coming to Saturn/Playstation, they just can't
handle it.
And Apogee releasing modified build-engine games (Shadow Warrior will
apparently have true room-over-room) means that mortal machines can run them
smoothly as well. I'm not ready to dive full into all polygon-based games,
even though I loved Quake.
> but as you pointed out, the way the guys left does suggest something was
> fundamentally WRONG there. No idea what it was, but that's not normal.
Who knows- maybe they're immature pricks, programming intelligence does not
translate into social grace. But it would seem logical that there's more to
the story than what we're hearing.
Dave Glue
Smoke Crack and Worship Satan <nom...@nomail.com> wrote in article
<4uuekq$g...@nntp.crl.com>...
> Never mind that Quake is a much more popular networked game. Duke had its
> (brief) day in the sun, and it is a good game, but it SUCKS at network play.
The
> levels are too goddam big, you can't join a game in progress, you can't play
> over internet without KALI and even then it's dog slow.
Levels? Gee, throw a dart and take your pick from the over 1,000 shareware
levels available.
And slow over the net? What isn't? Cripes, I tried Quake on a local server,
just as unplayable- well, considering the speed of my machine more so- than
Duke was on Ten. The problem is the Net's latency, not Quake/Duke.
> Duke will be remembered as an interesting cul-de-sac. Quake is the beginning
of
> something much better.
True. But it's a fun cul-de-sac.
Dave Glue
Oskar Sandberg <m-1...@mailbox.swipnet.se> wrote in article
<32124737...@nntpserver.swip.net>...
> On 14 Aug 1996 14:36:54 GMT, "Dave Glue" <dav...@interlog.com> wrote:
>
> >Yeah. Those idiots and that useless game, Duke, which will probably end up
> >selling over 500,000 copies and received rave reviews. Liscencing the build
> >engine out to several developers. Shadow Warrior & Blood coming as well.
Boy,
> >they're hurtin'.
> >
>
> Doom2 sold 2 million copies and Quake has already had 500,000 orders.
> Shadow Warrior and Blood are both based on dated technology and the
> customers know it. They feel like all the wolf3d clones did after Doom
> came out, crap.
The 'customers know it'. Doesn't seem to hurt their enjoyment- I saw far more
people dissatisfied with Quake and Duke, likely due to the system requirements.
What are the sales figures for Duke, btw? Anyone?
I'm buying a game, not a graphics engine. Outdated technology? To quote one
of the Letterman staff (when the show was funny): "Who gives a rats ass!"?
Duke is fun, runs fast, plays well.
> >Why the animosity? Why the hell would anyone want LESS competition, and
LESS
> >games? What do you possibly have to gain from iD monopolizing the 3D engine
> >market?
>
> We don't, we just look at this objectively and see that 3drealms is a
> crap company that has never made anything but crap games (with the
> exception of when they published for id) and as it looks now are going
> to continue making cap games.
Yep, that's objective. That's hormonal.
Greg Travis
Craig Murch wrote:
>
> ...
> I always thought Looking Glass sucked, actually. I hated System Shock.
> Too
> dark, too complicated for a 320*200 only game. Actually, I always felt
> that
> ID were the best game designers around.
>
> Craig
Well, I actually went and got the CD version, and it had higher
resolutions. The game was just complicated enough for those
resolutions. And, when you kicked it up to super-hi res, it was really
simple!
I guess things get easier when you spend more money.
Greg Travis
Mark Kusec
> "Dave Glue" <dav...@interlog.com> wrote in article
<01bb8ab9$c803dda0$LocalHost@dave-s>...
>
> Andreas <andreas....@mailbox.swipnet.se> wrote in article
> <4utfm8$g...@mn5.swip.net>...
>
> > If you tell me Build is
> > brilliant and new technology im gonna laugh.
>
> When it was released, it was. It was "brilliant" in that it had one of
the
> best sprite-based engines out at the time- and GASP- IT ACTUALLY RAN
WELL ON
> MOST PEOPLES MACHINES!
Duke3D runs like wet steaming dogshit on my father's 8mb 486/50. I'm
talking 1-2 frames/second when monsters are within sight, and underwater's
even worse. Are you suggesting his computer is worse than "most peoples'
machines"?
Regards,
Mark Kusec
mku...@direct.ca
Richmond, BC, Canada
id...@imap2.asu.edu
Craig Murch (I...@hate.junk.email) wrote:
: Dan Bongard wrote:
: >
: > : If you ask me (what? You didn't?) this is a great thing, since the
: > : level/game design on Quake is terrible, and it will be nice to actually be
: > : able to play an ENJOYABLE game using the Quake engine.
: >
: > : Perhaps this is iD realizing that they are way behind in the game design
: > : race...
: >
: > Well, Quake's level design wasn't very original in concept... dark
: > rooms, scary stuff hanging from the walls, etc... but I felt it was
: > effectively done, particularly in the registered levels. It is also
: > great to cruise around with noclipping on and realize just how
: > complex the levels really are.
: Dark, scary levels are cool. Small, bright deathmatch levels are for
: 3rd party level makers.
:
: > Duke3d, on the other hand, was generally obnoxious and immature... kind
: > of like watching a Van Damme or Segal flick. I can't say I see
: > 3dRealms as being worth much in terms of game design (though the Duke
: > engine was good, if a bit dated). The company that really does well
: > in game design, IMO, is Looking Glass...System Shock, Ultima Underworld,
: > and TerraNova all had excellent design.
: I always thought Looking Glass sucked, actually. I hated System Shock.
: Too
: dark, too complicated for a 320*200 only game. Actually, I always felt
: that
You should have use the gamma correction, and try the enhance version w/
the 640x400 mode. But than again it might be TOO challeging for some people.
Too much thinking involve for today action games.
Actually Looking Glass is one of the best 3D designer out there, ID and
3Drealms said that them self.
Look at the technology of Underworld compare to Wolf3d at the same time,
and the System Shock compare to Doom at the same time. They were ahead of
everybody else.
Except for the recent Terra Nova (an excellent game and engine, I'm just
burn out on the that type of game, powersuit and mechs aren't that much
different), I hope they'll do something else w/ that engine and crank up
the rez a bit. Nobody else even have an outdoor 3d engine not to mention
real physics.
: ID were the best game designers around.
:
: > -- Dan
: Craig
Rob Jellinghaus
In article <01bb8aec.baa1c720$13f9aecc@procyon>,
>> <4utfm8$g...@mn5.swip.net>...
>> > If you tell me Build is
>> > brilliant and new technology im gonna laugh.
>> When it was released, it was. It was "brilliant" in that it had one of
>the
>> best sprite-based engines out at the time- and GASP- IT ACTUALLY RAN
>WELL ON
>> MOST PEOPLES MACHINES!
>
>Duke3D runs like wet steaming dogshit on my father's 8mb 486/50. I'm
>talking 1-2 frames/second when monsters are within sight, and underwater's
>even worse. Are you suggesting his computer is worse than "most peoples'
>machines"?
Yes, it is. Your dad's machine must have a crappy ISA video card or
something. If he's getting 1-2 frames per second, it must be a 486DX2/50
(i.e. a clock-doubled 486/25) with a video card from 1988. His machine
is DEFINITELY worse than most people's machines; I bet it wasn't even
very good at Doom.
--
Rob Jellinghaus ro...@unreal.com http://www.best.com/~robj
Hakjoon
Smoke Crack and Worship Satan (nom...@nomail.com) wrote:
: Romero quit because he wasn't doing jack there. He just designed levels, which
: was the problem. He wanted to design whole games. So that doesn't hurt Id,
: they're becoming more and more an R&D project-- making game engines that are
: extensible, and heck even now there are at least three companies working on
: Quake-engine based games: raven, romero, and the old prey guys.
Make that four. Rogue is working on something also.
--Pat
============================================================================
We hope you can relate to our desire to rock and roll. Punk is dead
-Rocket from the Crypt
============================================================================
CGI Neophyte hak...@mnsinc.com
Greg Helton
andreas....@mailbox.swipnet.se (Andreas) wrote:
>BTW i bet 100 $ that this thread will sooner or later turn into another
>Quake vs. Duke3d "battle", sigh.
And in a couple of messages after yours, you win the money. Sigh.
BTW, that was probably the individual who started this thread's intention.
Read the first message in the thread and judge for yourself.
Gee, this much of a stink wasn't made when Romero quit. Then again, I
guess Quake people felt that was more their business and it wasn't
crossposted to hell like this is.
Jason Carter
dbon...@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) wrote:
>Dave Glue (dav...@interlog.com) wrote:
>
>
>: Dan Bongard <dbon...@netcom.com> wrote in article
>: <dbongardD...@netcom.com>...
>: > Duke was a Doom-style engine, slightly improved... released about
>: > two years after Doom and only a few months before the next big
>: > jump in 3d-shooter technology... Quake
>
>: Pfft. "Slightly" improved?
>
>
>I only consider this a slight improvement.
Then you're an idiot. I suggest you try to code a 3D engine
that can do these "slight improvements".
>:look up/down
>
>Not "look up/down"; rise up/down. This is one reason why looking
>up and down was so nausea-inducing.
What? Nausea-inducing? For a person who's never played a 3D game
maybe, otherwise, this has no foundation.
>I consider it a serious
>_weakness_ in the engine, not an improvement.
That's an idiotic statement if I ever saw one.
>: hardly just a "slightly" improved engine.
>
>Compared to the true 3d environment and physics model of Quake,
>with QuakeC to rewrite virtually every aspect of the game but
>the menus... yeah. Duke's achievments don't add up to much in
>comparason, given how recent a game Duke is.
Compared to the high end SGI machines that are commmonly used in silicon
valley, your computer is shit. But you know what? You still use it,
and you more than likely even enjoy gaming on it. The same goes
for Duke Nukem. It has *excellent* gameplay, even though it's engine
is not true-3d.
-Jason Carter
"Killer3D" on IRC
==========================================================
| Political correctness is for weenies. -- /
=======================================================/
Ed Jankovsky
Smoke Crack and Worship Satan <nom...@nomail.com> wrote:
: > the case of Doom. That will be the one remembered. But... when people
: > say, who made the best sprite based 3d game ever? 3D Realms.
: Wow, doesn't it just give you the warm fuzzies? Best sprite 3D game ever. What
: an honor!
Gee.. until Quake was officially released all the id backers were praising
Doom2 over Duke, so apparently it must matter somewhat..
: Never mind that Quake is a much more popular networked game. Duke had its
: (brief) day in the sun, and it is a good game, but it SUCKS at network play.
: The levels are too goddam big, you can't join a game in progress, you can't
: play over internet without KALI and even then it's dog slow.
And until what.. 2 months ago you could only join a Descent game in
progress. And look at your last statement.. many Quake games are dog slow
as well, be careful in your praise oh id zombie.
: Duke will be remembered as an interesting cul-de-sac. Quake is the
: beginning of something much better.
Exactly.. it's just the beginning..
: Romero quit because he wasn't doing jack there. He just designed levels, which
: was the problem. He wanted to design whole games. So that doesn't hurt Id,
: they're becoming more and more an R&D project-- making game engines that are
: extensible, and heck even now there are at least three companies working on
: Quake-engine based games: raven, romero, and the old prey guys.
So maybe someone will do something interesting with it then.. and we can
avoid Doom 4.
: > You also aren't paying attention to what is going on in the industry.
: > 3D realms has licensed out the Build engine for Shadow Warrior, Blood,
: > blah blah. Quake was first... so what. Wolfenstein 3D was first also.
: > I have said it before, and I will say it again... I can't wait to see
: > what will be done with this technology.
Yep.. just play the games and have some fun (heavens no!)
--
+=- . . .. -=*
| The gene pool could use a little chlorine e...@azfms.com |
. syr...@primenet.com .
| Hard work has a future payoff. Laziness pays off now. .
+=- .. . . -+
Greg Helton
mis...@csc.canterbury.ac.nz wrote:
>Doesn't this strike anyone else as strange? Prey has as much in common with
>Build as Quake does with Doom (so we are told), so what possible reason could
>there be for _Build_ experience as the only level making qualification
>accepted? Why could Build experience indicate how good someone will be with
>Prey _better_ than say, Dark Forces, or Hexen, or Marathon, or Doom, or....
>The only qualifying aspect I can think of is that Build was no availible until
>very recently, thus anyone who has released good levels must also be a fairly
>fast learner and level builder. (But to me, the other edge seems sharper - that
>really good designers will quite possibly be engauged in more demanding
>projects, and so not have anything to show ATM...)
>However, if the above is the reason, the Quake levels would be a better measure
>than Build...
>Perhaps I'm reading too much into this, but he was _very_ specific that it was
>Duke levels they were after...
>Anyone care to try and cast any light on this?
>Damn, now my curiosity is aroused... :)
Richard Grey was working on Shadow Warrior in addition to anything else he
might have been working on. It seems fairly logical that they want someone
who will be able to work on that-and perhaps Blood-in addition to Prey.
Oskar Sandberg
On 14 Aug 1996 23:57:37 GMT, "SiRuS" <si...@aimnet.com> wrote:
>
>Oh...you mean DOOM3?
Yeah, but its called Quake.
And its even better than the first two (fucking excellent.)
Dave Glue
Craig Murch <I...@hate.junk.email> wrote in article
<32142C...@hate.junk.email>...
> Unreal is Win95 only. ONLY. Therefore, I'm not going to buy it no matter
> how good it is. Win95 sucks.
ROTFL! Throw out your PC right now. Virtually all game developers are moving
to Win95. Romero stated months ago that he hopes "Win95 completely takes over
the world". You are going to have one hell of a meager selection in the future
if you stick to DOS.
> Earthsiege II is the only fast Win95 game
> I've seen. The rest sucked.
Virtua Fighter Remix?
Chris Hargrove
>Some people just don't get it. Do you really think windows game is
>going to be faster than dos games? Do you really think win95 is faster
>than wfw3.11? do you really think NT, OS/2 is faster than wfw3.11? I
>am sure, Win00, which will be a 64, or whatever how many bits,
>operating system, would put your system to a craw. All you get with
>these operating system is stability, multitasking, at the expense of
>less cpu time for each program, a terrible thing for games, which
>needs every bit of cpu power that's left.
That was before DirectX. Granted, the DirectX software emulation
isn't exactly wonderful, but the point of it is to be able to program
for a universal API that works under all hardware and software
configurations supported by Windows. This makes programmers' lives a
lot easier, and as more and more accelerated non-standard hardware
becomes available and common, the choice to use Win95 will become more
and more appropriate. Windows may be slower than DOS, but accelerated
Windows is faster than unaccelerated DOS (unaccelerated because the
amount of hardware-specific code required would be impractical).
Just a thought.
--
Chris Hargrove
Technology Programmer, Raven Software Corp.
char...@mail.ravensoft.com
http://www.ravensoft.com/
--
Dave Glue
Andreas <andreas....@mailbox.swipnet.se> wrote in article
<4utfm8$g...@mn5.swip.net>...
> >Yeah. Those idiots and that useless game, Duke, which will probably end up
> >selling over 500,000 copies and received rave reviews. Liscencing the
> build
> >engine out to several developers. Shadow Warrior & Blood coming as well.
> Boy,
> >they're hurtin'.
>
>
> He was talking about *technology*, not game design.
Really. Here's the original quote:
> >> > THIS is the ONE main reason why I'd prefer to buy a game from 3drealms
> over
> >> > idsoftware.
Seems like he's talking about the games as a whole, doesn't it?
> If you tell me Build is
> brilliant and new technology im gonna laugh.
When it was released, it was. It was "brilliant" in that it had one of the
best sprite-based engines out at the time- and GASP- IT ACTUALLY RAN WELL ON
MOST PEOPLES MACHINES!
> Duke3d was a *design* masterpiece(even if im not really a fan, i see its
> qualities), they could have used a souped up Hexen engine and still made
> roughly the same game.
"Roughly" is quite a flexible term- sure, no sector over sector and no sloping
floors. Impossible to recreate most of those levels with the Hexen engine.
Charlie Wiederhold
nom...@nomail.com (Smoke Crack and Worship Satan) wrote:
I can't believe I am actually going to respond to someone who uses
"Smoke Crack and Worship Satan" as his handle. Obviously an id
worshiper. Ugh!
>YOUR OPINION. I believe it's because Carmack was controlling the game.
>If you read the C|Net interview with Romero in the GameCenter, he says
>http://www.cnet.com/Gamecenter/News/August96/081496a.html
>I firmly and deeply believe in game design as the be-all and end-all of a game.
>My new company's philosophy and structure places the game designer at the top of
>the development wedge, where I personally believe they belong.
>Well, he wasn't getting that at Id. The game ENGINE was the center of
>development, not the DESIGNER.
Uhhh..... isn't that what I said? In order to get it out, the got the
engine finished, but the left out the design which would have made it
even better.
>Sounds like sour grapes to me; another Duke fan bitter that their love-child,
>Prey, isn't going to happen for a looooong time. Quake is a killer game. Could
Actually, my love-child would have to be Duke. I anticipate Prey, or
whatever game will take the fantastic abilities of Quake, and turn it
into the fun type game that Duke was. Personally, I would rather have
seen 3D Realms working on a true 3D version of Duke to follow up the
current one we have. But, whoever makes the first game with the
quality of Quake's engine... but the quality of Duke's gameplay and
excitement... that will be where I will be placing my support. If it
happens to NOT be 3D Realms, then that is too bad. But, Quake is not
my idea of a good time. Multiplayer is fun, but that is because
multiplayer is fun ANYWHERE.
>> A year away is not bad. How many movies do you
>> see during the summer, that have previews for new movies that say
>> "Coming Next Summer!". How long do you think it takes to design a game
>> like that?
>>
>More sour grapes.
*sigh* Like another person said, they were reading about Quake stuff
in the summer of 1994. Well, I began to really hear about Prey earlier
this year. Hmmm... seems the development time is about the same. You
could say sour grapes if I had never tried Quake (As the fable story
line goes), but since I have tried Quake, determined Duke was more
fun, you can't make that kind of judgement. I still have both on my
computer, but I tend to go back to Duke if I feel like playing a bit.
>> Charlie Wiederhold - Duke Nukem 3D Rodeo Shootout
>> We're looking for the best gun slingers in Texas!
>> http://rampages.onramp.net/~bminer/duke/index.htm
>What a surprise! A Duke Nukem fan!
Do you even know what that is??? Maybe you should go check out the
page to see what it is all about.
Adam Williamson
In article <4uu2on$o...@news-f.iadfw.net>, Greg Helton
<ghe...@airmail.net> writes
>
>So what? It's not like Mr. Broussard hasn't posted before. Then again,
>Romero posted on occasion as well.
>
Of course, Apogee have made the effort to hire a guy (Joe Siegler) who
mainly deals with the Internet, and posts fairly often on
alt.games.apogee and alt.games.duke3d. Id post once a year and it's a
major occurence - it'd probably get on Stomped's "What's New" page :)
--
Adam Williamson
Adam Williamson
In article <4ut8nm$n...@newnews.metronet.com>, Patrick Deupree
<pdeu...@metronet.com> writes
>Heck, lets look at Duke3D for example. This was 3DRealms first 1st
>person shooter, yet they provided a languange and interface to level
>design that is definatly better than that provided in Doom. I'm sure
>that they did a lot of research on Doom to figure out a better way to
>build their tools.
>
3DR is basically Apogee with a different name, unless you're a lawyer.
So it isn't really the Duke team's first shooter - that was ROtT (say no
more).
--
Adam Williamson
Alexei Novikov
On 15 Aug 1996, Raymond Chi wrote:
> to get the performance of playing DOS game xyz on a x86, a windows95
> version would requires a (x + 1)86. Most of today's pentium can't
> handle a native win95 version of quake at 1024x768, which is the
> resolution most people run windows on (I wouldn't want to change my
> resolution just for playing games)
DirectX games change display mode to whatever they want not
touching desktop settings. So you can easily run a game in 320x200 not
having to change your Windows display resolution. Also, by a TIMEDEMO DEMO2
benchmark Doom2/DOS gets 41fps in 320x200 on my computer, Doom95 - 37fps
in 320x200. 10% degradation of performance? Not bad considering that
a) Doom95 was incomplete when I tried it (hopefully it'll be optimized)
b) My Trident 9440agi DirectX drivers are first early beta (only about
11% faster than DirectX emulation)
So, it's not that bad. You will need more memory to run DirectX games,
that's for sure.
Alex.
Martijn Dekker
q...@ix.netcom.com(B Morphin ) wrote:
:In <4uqs9p$l...@shellx.best.com> ro...@best.com (Rob Jellinghaus) writes:
:
:
:>To sum it up: Prey has had a minor setback; new people will be brought
:on board at once
:>to fill the new spots; The engine technology is solid and intact; Prey
:lives and you
:>can expect it in late 1997, according to original plan, or "when it's
:done" :)
:
:
:REPLY:
:
:Is Late 1997 a typo? If not who really cares about software over a year
:away.
ehrm, did not we all speculate and dream about quake 2 years before
it finally appeared? hell, there were quake newsgroups 1 year ago!
:
:BH
--
Martijn Dekker [ mailto:mde...@fwi.uva.nl ] http://www.fwi.uva.nl/~mdekker/
Math department, University of Amsterdam
PFF [ Linux, X, Games, Java ] http://www.fwi.uva.nl/~mdekker/pff.html
Xcogitate [X11/Java game] http://turing.fwi.uva.nl/~mdekker/xcogitate.html
Adam Williamson
In article <4utfm8$g...@mn5.swip.net>, Andreas <andreas.andersson@mailbox
.swipnet.se> writes
>Exactly and there has to be a good reason for this, American McGee's comment
>on #quake was, "Prey ain't gonna happen", maybe 3drealms are so far behind
>and having so much trouble creating a fast and good engine that they are
>basicly leaving a sinking ship?
>
Let's count the defectors:
Levelord and two Prey programmers to Hipnotic, Inc.
Tom Hall to Dream Design.
Your theory sounds pretty good to me :)
--
Adam Williamson
Adam Williamson
In article <dbongardD...@netcom.com>, Dan Bongard
<dbon...@netcom.com> writes
>Duke was a Doom-style engine, slightly improved... released about
>two years after Doom and only a few months before the next big
>jump in 3d-shooter technology... Quake
>
--
Adam Williamson
Oskar Sandberg
On 15 Aug 1996 06:04:10 GMT, nom...@nomail.com (Smoke Crack and
Worship Satan) wrote:
>Romero quit because he wasn't doing jack there. He just designed levels, which
>was the problem. He wanted to design whole games. So that doesn't hurt Id,
>they're becoming more and more an R&D project-- making game engines that are
>extensible, and heck even now there are at least three companies working on
>Quake-engine based games: raven, romero, and the old prey guys.
Considering all the information the rogue guys have provided on making
models and stuff I would expect they are also licensing it. That's 4.
Gerald Mori
"Dave Glue" <dav...@interlog.com> wrote:
>Craig Murch <I...@hate.junk.email> wrote in article
><32142C...@hate.junk.email>...
>> Unreal is Win95 only. ONLY. Therefore, I'm not going to buy it no matter
>> how good it is. Win95 sucks.
>ROTFL! Throw out your PC right now. Virtually all game developers are moving
>to Win95. Romero stated months ago that he hopes "Win95 completely takes over
>the world". You are going to have one hell of a meager selection in the future
>if you stick to DOS.
Nice attitude Dave. The only thing I see Win95 taking over at this
point is extra floor and shelf sapce at Computer City because nobody's
buying it. NT 4.0 might do well but Win95 is pretty much a dead end.
Jerry
Adam Williamson
In article <1996Aug15.124516@cantva>, mis...@csc.canterbury.ac.nz
writes
>Doesn't this strike anyone else as strange? Prey has as much in common with
>Build as Quake does with Doom (so we are told), so what possible reason could
>there be for _Build_ experience as the only level making qualification
>accepted? Why could Build experience indicate how good someone will be with
>Prey _better_ than say, Dark Forces, or Hexen, or Marathon, or Doom, or....
>
lot of what I learned editing Wolf3D I applied to Doom, and a lot of
what I learnt editing Doom I will apply to Quake. 3DR wouldn't exactly
say "we're looking for someone who's good at making Quake levels", they
want a good editor, so they find the best Duke level editor they can
(try Jennifer Lynn...it'd be a blow for equality as well :>). How do you
suggest they go about it?
--
Adam Williamson
Adam Williamson
In article <32142C...@hate.junk.email>, Craig Murch
<I...@hate.junk.email> writes
>normal ID - look how many patches Doom had.
>
Can I beat Frans to it? I wonder :). Now lemme count...this is a version
count, there's a different amount of patches.
1.0
1.1
1.2
1.4nb
1.5nb
1.6nb
1.666
1.9
Udoom 1.9
So..altogether now...9. Wow. NB is 'net beta.
--
Adam Williamson
Chris Kintz
On Thu, 15 Aug 1996 02:46:02 GMT, tor...@alfa.itea.unit.no (TJ) wrote:
>"Dave Glue" <dav...@interlog.com> wrote:
>>Wait until you guys see my game. The most incredible engine ever made,
>>1600*1200 resolution, 24-bit, 60 frames a second on a P90. It will be out
>>2012.
>REALLY? Hey, can I have a beta version NOW, please????
>
>PLEASE???
Tell ya what. I'll let you have a beta of Battlecruiser 3000, okay?
-Chris
Christopher Kintz (cki...@aloha.com) (http://www.aloha.com/~ckintz)
Orbital Death Ray Strike Coordinates - Lat:21.343N, Lng:157.908W, Hgt:167ft.
ADVERTISEMENT: Use Chris' Email Archiving Service! Any unsolicited
commercial email sent to 'cki...@aloha.com' will be put into storage
on my hard-drive. Fulfill all of your storage needs! A charge of
$200 will be charged for every 5K or portion thereof. I accept VISA,
MASTERCARD, CHECK, and MONEY ORDERS. By sending me commercial email,
you signal understanding and acceptance of these terms.
Raymond Chi
Dave Glue (dav...@interlog.com) wrote:
: ROTFL! Throw out your PC right now. Virtually all game developers are moving
: to Win95. Romero stated months ago that he hopes "Win95 completely takes over
: the world". You are going to have one hell of a meager selection in the future
: if you stick to DOS.
Sure, win95 game is a lot easier to program than DOS games, at least
the programmer doesn't have to worry about some of the low level
details, but consider this:
to get the performance of playing DOS game xyz on a x86, a windows95
version would requires a (x + 1)86. Most of today's pentium can't
handle a native win95 version of quake at 1024x768, which is the
resolution most people run windows on (I wouldn't want to change my
resolution just for playing games), maybe a ppro, so sure, go ahead
and buy a ppro, who cares.
Havn't we learned the lession that when doom came out, a decent 486 is
a very good machine for it, but look at windoom now, can you really
play it on any 486? a decent 486 would run terminal velosity fine, but
can any 486 run the win95 version of fury at the speed of the DOS
version?
Some people just don't get it. Do you really think windows game is
going to be faster than dos games? Do you really think win95 is faster
than wfw3.11? do you really think NT, OS/2 is faster than wfw3.11? I
am sure, Win00, which will be a 64, or whatever how many bits,
operating system, would put your system to a craw. All you get with
these operating system is stability, multitasking, at the expense of
less cpu time for each program, a terrible thing for games, which
needs every bit of cpu power that's left.
--
Raymond Chi
ch...@cory.EECS.Berkeley.EDU
Mark Kusec
>
> Craig Murch <I...@hate.junk.email> wrote in article
>
> > version). Dark Forces had everything except multiplayer and high-res
> > that Duke
> > had.
>
> No sloping floors. Makes a big difference in level design IMO. As
well, I
> didn't see many room over room examples in Dark Forces, could you point
one
> out?
Go play Dark Forces for 5 minutes and you'll find such examples. One of
the later levels, if you'll recall, was a 6-storey prison complex. In
this regard (as well as jumping, crouching, and looking up/down) Dark
Forces was a big improvement over Doom. Duke making the same
accomplishments 2 years later did NOT impress me much. In fact, Duke felt
like the designers wanted to make a multiplayer version of Dark Forces.
Even the sound of picking up health was the same as it was in Dark
Forces.
> Duh. The engine in Duke is far more complex than Doom for godsakes.
Look
> up/down, sector over sector, sloping floors.
Other engines had accomplished all that except the sloping floors, and
none were as slow as Doom (although Hexen came close). You keep touting
Duke's high-res modes but Descent beat everyone to the punch in that
respect.
I don't disagree that Duke is a fun game, but personally, 1) I found that
Dukematch became boring fast, and 2) aside from sloping floors I found
Duke to be nothing more than a collection of ideas from other, existing
1st-person games. Duke felt like a nostalgic tribute to Doom and Dark
Forces. Admittedly Duke got the last word in on 2.5D games, but as far as
I'm concerned, that chapter of history is now closed.
Oskar Sandberg
On 15 Aug 1996 05:08:51 GMT, "SiRuS" <si...@aimnet.com> wrote:
>It's amazing what kind of dopefish [you] one can catch [me] just by
>purposly posting something incorrectly.
>Heh...
Its even more amazing how stupid someone can get before the sky falls
down on top of us.
Tim Behrendsen
Dave Glue <dav...@interlog.com> wrote in article
<01bb8abb$0735bba0$LocalHost@dave-s>...
>
> Craig Murch <I...@hate.junk.email> wrote in article
> <321428...@hate.junk.email>...
>
> > version). Dark Forces had everything except multiplayer and high-res
> > that Duke
> > had.
>
> No sloping floors. Makes a big difference in level design IMO. As well,
I
> didn't see many room over room examples in Dark Forces, could you point
one
> out?
What ??? I don't know what game you're playing, but the subject
is Dark Forces. There are rooms over rooms *everywhere*! 3D
map function that wasn't too horrible, either.
-- Tim Behrendsen (t...@airshields.com)
Ralph Evans
"Dave Glue" <dav...@interlog.com> wrote:
>I'm buying a game, not a graphics engine. Outdated technology? To quote one
>of the Letterman staff (when the show was funny): "Who gives a rats ass!"?
>Duke is fun, runs fast, plays well.
A Hiroshima style bomb is outdated technology but I'd rather not have
one dropped on my neighborhood. Gaming is about fun and Duke and
Quake are neck and neck in that department.
_____
!!--!! /-\ !
__ _ .
! !O" ! _ !/
! ! \ ! !_ !\
(HaT TRick)
Play me at H2H 714-572-D00M (572-3966) or at
Hotel Calif.: 714 995-3966
HTTP://users.aol.com/ralphevans/doom.htm
Hatmax.wad: our Friday Night net group's 30 favorite dmatch levels.
Craig Murch
Patrick Deupree wrote:
>
> : It tells you something, sure -- that they're behind -- WAY BEHIND -- in the
> : 3D technology race, and they know it.
>
> : THEY LISTEN, oh yes, they listen -- to the sound of doors smacking them
> : in the chin when their "talent" defects to use technology superior to
> : anything they're developing.
>
> : Carmack made an interesting point in that WIRED article about how hard
> : it is becoming to be a major contender in the 3D market. He said, basically,
> : that those who started first will always have the advantage, considering
> : how much work they've done compared to the new companies. It's hard to
> : catch up -- and 3D Realm's employees defecting so they can liscense id's
> : technology only reinforces the apparent truth of Carmack's statements.
>
> : Now, I don't know if this is how things actually ARE (not being a working
> : member of this industry) but it cetainly seems valid to me based on
> : appearances.
>
> A) I could care less who is and who is not ahead in the 3D technology
> race. I care about the quality of the game that whoevers technology
> produces. The word I've seen on the net says that one of the reasons
> that Romero left Id is that his ideas for Quakes gameplay design were
> being bypassed in favor of getting the game out the door fast.
No. IMO, Romero left because he got a bit pissed off with Carmack making
game decisions. Still, I think that makes Carmack the sole owner of id
now. Maybe he has the brains to hire some more people.
> So, I just hope that the ex-3DRealms team is not pushed to just "get
> something out". Believe me, I know from experience that this sucks.
Unlikely. But I doubt Quake suffered greatly from this. That's just
normal ID - look how many patches Doom had.
> Quake is a great engine and a great multiplayer game. Lets see if
> Richard Grey can make it a great single player game.
Quake is a cool game. In single player and multiplayer.
> B) Just because a company had the edge on the technology doesn't mean
> they will win in the end. I know it's not a game company, but take
> Micrographix as an example. They were the leaders in 2D graphics editors
> for the PC for quite a while, but they got so comfortable with that
> success and they worked themselves into a corner where they couldn't adapt.
And there are more examples, most of them involving MS - they'll be a
great
example is IE 3.00 is better than Netscape Navigator 3.00...
> Heck, lets look at Duke3D for example. This was 3DRealms first 1st
> person shooter, yet they provided a languange and interface to level
> design that is definatly better than that provided in Doom. I'm sure
> that they did a lot of research on Doom to figure out a better way to
> build their tools.
Yes... But Doom was more than 2 years old by the time Duke came out -
Quake was almost finished. Plus, Quake is even better with the 3rd
party stuff - look at QuakeC.
> C) As I said in point A, I don't care who makes the game, as long as it's
> made. So far, the info I see, says that Unreal is the game for me. To
> be honest, I don't think Prey was very far along because, other than the
> first few mentions in magazines, I havn't seen word 1 about it in quite a
> while.
Unreal is Win95 only. ONLY. Therefore, I'm not going to buy it no matter
how good it is. Win95 sucks. Earthsiege II is the only fast Win95 game
I've seen. The rest sucked. And DirectPlay (think that's what it's
called),
sucks, at least, it sucks if Close Combat used it properly.
> So, I had counted them out already and I'm standing on the sidelines
> right now waiting to see who wins the race, Id or Epic.
Sorry, the race won't be over when Unreal comes out. By that time,
Quake2
should be well on the way, and Raven/Dream Design/Hypnotic Interactive
should have the games they're basing on the Quake engine almost ready.
(Is Raven licensing the Quake engine?)
Craig
Craig Murch
Dan Bongard wrote:
>
> Edwin Gore (edg...@nntp.best.com) wrote:
> : If you ask me (what? You didn't?) this is a great thing, since the
> : level/game design on Quake is terrible, and it will be nice to actually be
> : able to play an ENJOYABLE game using the Quake engine.
>
> : Perhaps this is iD realizing that they are way behind in the game design
> : race...
>
> Well, Quake's level design wasn't very original in concept... dark
> rooms, scary stuff hanging from the walls, etc... but I felt it was
> effectively done, particularly in the registered levels. It is also
> great to cruise around with noclipping on and realize just how
> complex the levels really are.
Dark, scary levels are cool. Small, bright deathmatch levels are for
3rd party level makers.
> Duke3d, on the other hand, was generally obnoxious and immature... kind
> of like watching a Van Damme or Segal flick. I can't say I see
> 3dRealms as being worth much in terms of game design (though the Duke
> engine was good, if a bit dated). The company that really does well
> in game design, IMO, is Looking Glass...System Shock, Ultima Underworld,
> and TerraNova all had excellent design.
I always thought Looking Glass sucked, actually. I hated System Shock.
Too
dark, too complicated for a 320*200 only game. Actually, I always felt
that
ID were the best game designers around.
> -- Dan
Craig
Craig Murch
Dave Glue wrote:
>
> Dan Bongard <dbon...@netcom.com> wrote in article
> <dbongardD...@netcom.com>...
> > Duke was a Doom-style engine, slightly improved... released about
> > two years after Doom and only a few months before the next big
> > jump in 3d-shooter technology... Quake
>
> angled floors, hardly just a "slightly" improved engine.
WinDoom had high-res modes, and I'm pretty sure the Linux X version had
pixel
doubling etc. (never did get that bastard to work - I ended up using the
svgalib
version). Dark Forces had everything except multiplayer and high-res
that Duke
had.
> And sure, Quake is more complex. Which is why you need a P133 to get 30fps in
> VGA, whereas my DX4-120 can do it with Duke. I love Quake as well, but Apogee
> got a lot of fans by making a fun, playable 3D game that blazed on most
> hardware currently out there.
Why does everyone keep praising Apogee/3DRealms for Duke being so fast?
It isn't.
Sorry, but Doom ran perfectly in 320*200 on my (now upgraded) DX2-66.
Duke SUCKED
on the same machine in the same resolution. And since DF worked
perfectly on it,
I don't see why Duke was so damn shit - it's engine was no better (in
320*200)
than DF's apart from multiplayer support.
> > Prey will be a Quake-style engine, presumably improved, and if the
> > current schedule is right it will be released about 1.5 years after
> > Quake. It looks like 3dRealms is catching up, slowly, but there can
> > be no doubt that they are way, way behind.
>
> Who cares? An engine does not make the game, and we'll still be seeing games
> based on the Quake engine then anyways.
Yes, but they will most likely have improved the Quake engine
considerably,
and the Next Generation Technology should be nearly finished by then...
> > BTW... Duke hasn't sold 500k copies yet? Quake sold that many in
> > pre-release, I believe.
>
> I have no idea how many Duke has sold, it was a guess. It's probably quite a
> bit more by now.
I doubt it. No one I know bought it. They're all awaiting their copied
of
Quake reg'd (this is in Australia - they should be here... well,
tomorrow!)
Craig
mis...@csc.canterbury.ac.nz
> Not really. I would find it strange to have someone that was an excellent Doom
> level designer who got completely lost with Duke. Sure, it would take him/her
> a while to learn the abilities of the new environment, but basically the skills
> carry over- level design, placements of weapons/rejuvenation pills, style and
> "theme" of level, etc. Frankly, if someone could design levels with Doom/Build
> restrictions, they might just be truly set free with a more advanced engine.
You missed my point, which was that an excellant Doom designer would _not_ get
lost with Duke, or Prey, and neither would an excellant Duke designer get lost
with Doom or Prey, so why are Doom skills not considered a qualification while
Duke skills are? It's not as if a Doom designer could see the job vacancy and
aplly his skills to Duke in time to get the job, yet his skills will apply to
Prey every bit as much as the skills of a Duke designer. So why then, are
3dRealms _only_ accepting Duke designers? It struck me as a novel form of
shooting yourself in the foot, so I'm presuming there is a hidden reason here,
and I'm curious as to what it is :)
SiRuS
Kent H Lundberg <kl...@mit.edu> wrote in article
<s3fd90s...@eecs-ath-33.mit.edu>...
> > You also aren't paying attention to what is going on in the industry.
> > 3D realms has licensed out the Build engine for Shadow Warrior,
Blood,
> > blah blah. Quake was first... so what. Wolfenstein 3D was first also.
>
> Actually, Ultima Underworld was first. What amazes me about Quake is
> that, despite all it's amazing 3D technology, it's still a "run around
> the dungeon and shoot everything that moves" game. I mean really, it's
> Doom 3, and not much more.
Couldn't agree with you more. I showed Quake to a couple of friends [who'd
never seen it before], and they're first response was - "Hey...this looks
JUST like DOOM".
> Oh, a pixel changed, blam blam blam, oh a bigger gun, BLAM BLAM BLAM.
Well...that's how it usually works. Most companies will release a "new"
product by polishing up their best selling product and giving it a new name
[and adding a few variances]. But, basically, it's STILL the same product.
> How many shooter games can you play? In this regard, Quake is still an
> evolutionary step. For real first person 3D gameplay, you can't beat
> System Shock. For *real* advances in 3D technology, look at Terra Nova.
>
> --> Kent.
People will keep playing "shooter games" until the general public starts to
tire of them. Remember Space Invaders, PacMan, Tetris, etc? How many
games do you see [new] are clones of those? Not many.
Luckily, LucasArts, Epic, Raven, and a few others are working on products
that should be more than just run, shoot, hit switch, run, shoot,
jump...etc..etc..etc. OH...and have a theme as well. ;-]
Lonnie McCullough
cor...@solarcon.compulink.co.uk (Raven) wrote:
>dbon...@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) wrote:
>>Well, Quake's level design wasn't very original in concept... dark
>>rooms, scary stuff hanging from the walls, etc... but I felt it was
>>effectively done, particularly in the registered levels. It is also
>>great to cruise around with noclipping on and realize just how
>>complex the levels really are.
>Have you got the pirated version?
>If so, tsk tsk.
>---------------------------------
>This Tagquote is SHAREWARE. To
>continue reading, mail me your
>credit card numbers..............
>---------------------------------
Why would he have the pirated version???? The registered version has
already been shipped you know. Masybe I'm missing something here but
I don't see the point of this post.
Lonnie McCullough
lon...@nol.net
Micheal Keane
In article <01bb8abb$0735bba0$LocalHost@dave-s>,
Dave Glue <dav...@interlog.com> wrote:
>Duh. The engine in Duke is far more complex than Doom for godsakes. Look
>up/down, sector over sector, sloping floors.
System Shock anyone?
--
Micheal Keane(ae...@u.washington.edu)
Get the Nowhere Man FAQ at my webpage: http://weber.u.washington.edu/~aexia
Petition Fox and tell them you want a DOCTOR WHO series in the Fall!
Join the Church of Last Thursday of Queen Maeve the Cat and be saved!
mis...@csc.canterbury.ac.nz
> I don't see there's any mystery here at all, to be honest. The simple
> fact is that Build is 3DRealm's product, whereas Quake and Doom are
> id's. It seems quite sensible that 3D Realms should ask for people with
> experience in one of their own products rather than their competitors.
> If anything else was the case, they would be admitting that their
> products weren't the best!
Surely 3dRealms are not so arrogant and stubborn as to jepodise the quality of
their level designers for something as simple as having the designer have
worked on their own product when that product bears no more resemblance to Prey
than any other on the market! When LucasArts went looking for level designers
for _their_ Quake killer, they were looking for design experience in _any_
suitable game, not just Dark Forces - restricting the applicants to those with
DF experience only would have been as stupid as 3dRealms restricting to Duke.
However I don't think 3dRealms is as stupid as you indicate - I'd prefer to
think there was a better reason behind the move (maybe a typo :) and I'm just
curious as to what it is/was...
mis...@csc.canterbury.ac.nz
> BTW i bet 100 $ that this thread will sooner or later turn into another
> Quake vs. Duke3d "battle", sigh.
Is it crossposted to places other than the Quake newsgroups yet? (I can't tell
with this editor :(
If it isn't, let's hope it doesn't... :)
mis...@csc.canterbury.ac.nz
> Prey does use the Build editor from what I recall. It just uses a
> suped up version. Thus, people with Build experiense should be able
> to make the transision faster than others. All other things being
> equal (design quality, etc).
Ahh, that sounds like a more likely reason...
(IMHO however... <audience groans> learning how to use an editor properly takes
an almost insignificant amount of time, so I certainly wouldn't use that as a
restriction, but it makes more sense than any of the possibilities I wondered
at... :)
TJ
rw...@panix.com (Russell Webb) wrote:
>What's your source for that? People are reporting right now that they
>are receiving registered Quake versions with order numbers #22000 through
>#24000.
The 500k figure has been around awhile now, I can't remember the first
time I heard of it. Anyway, the ordering # people are talking about
hasn't much to do with the total sale of Quake, that I can say. It's
just one ordering centre's way of numbering orders, for instance I
ordered Final Doom, and the ordering # on that game was in the same
range as the Quake orders, i.e. #17-18000 or so. I believe there's
more than one ordering centre/distribution centre too, so it's hard to
tell based on the published #'s.
TJ
Richard Ward
In article <4v07if$r...@mule2.mindspring.com>,
>>: Dan Bongard <dbon...@netcom.com> wrote in article
>>: <dbongardD...@netcom.com>...
>>: > Duke was a Doom-style engine, slightly improved... released about
>>: > two years after Doom and only a few months before the next big
>>: > jump in 3d-shooter technology... Quake
>>: Pfft. "Slightly" improved?
>>: High res modes
>>
>
>Then you're an idiot. I suggest you try to code a 3D engine
>that can do these "slight improvements".
Getting high-rez modes is not hard (especially if you rely on VESA support),
getting engines simple enough not to bog down under the huge graphics data
load is. I'd rather play 320x200 DOOM than 640x480 Duke 3D.
>>:look up/down
>>Not "look up/down"; rise up/down. This is one reason why looking
>>up and down was so nausea-inducing.
>
>What? Nausea-inducing? For a person who's never played a 3D game
>maybe, otherwise, this has no foundation.
Yes, nausia inducing. Duke uses shearing to acomplish "look up/look down"
(just like Dark Forces, ROtT(en), and all the rest), and it does cause
nausia. It is not an accurate model of how your view changes when you look up
or down. Even DOOM had the ability to do this, though Carmack and company
decided to not use it as it did not add to the game play of DOOM.
Quake's look up/look down rotates the view, just like the look left/look right
function does.
>>I consider it a serious
>>_weakness_ in the engine, not an improvement.
>
>That's an idiotic statement if I ever saw one.
No, it's a valid argument.
>>: hardly just a "slightly" improved engine.
>>
>>Compared to the true 3d environment and physics model of Quake,
>>with QuakeC to rewrite virtually every aspect of the game but
>>the menus... yeah. Duke's achievments don't add up to much in
>>comparason, given how recent a game Duke is.
>
>Compared to the high end SGI machines that are commmonly used in silicon
>valley, your computer is shit. But you know what? You still use it,
>and you more than likely even enjoy gaming on it. The same goes
>for Duke Nukem. It has *excellent* gameplay, even though it's engine
>is not true-3d.
Oh, yes, shooting strippers and toilettes is great fun, for an hour or so. I
bought Duke, I played it. I stopped playing it and went back to DOOM until
Quake came out. Duke _is_ a good game, but considering that it came out
_three_ years after DOOM, it does not shine so brightly as it would have if it
had come out when ROtT(en) came out.
--
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The box...you opened it. We came. It's a means to summon us - Cenobites. |
| Explorers in the further regions of experience. Demons to some, angels to |
| others. ... No tears please. It's a waste of good suffering." - Pinhead |
| rrw...@netcom.com Richard R. Ward |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Richard Ward
In article <U3ByHhAl...@scss.demon.co.uk>,
Adam Williamson <Ad...@scss.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <4uu2on$o...@news-f.iadfw.net>, Greg Helton
><ghe...@airmail.net> writes
>>
>>So what? It's not like Mr. Broussard hasn't posted before. Then again,
>>Romero posted on occasion as well.
>>
>Of course, Apogee have made the effort to hire a guy (Joe Siegler) who
>mainly deals with the Internet, and posts fairly often on
>alt.games.apogee and alt.games.duke3d. Id post once a year and it's a
>major occurence - it'd probably get on Stomped's "What's New" page :)
Only problem is that Siegler has a bad habbit of pissing people off - anyone
else remember his hissy-fit about editing Wolfenstein 3D maps as being illegal
in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action?
Robert Merritt
This spork scribble is by nom...@nomail.com (Smoke Crack and Worship Satan)
>In article <4utrsn$c...@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>, wie...@mail.utexas.edu (Charlie
>Wiederhold) wrote:
>> >REPLY:
>>
>> >Is Late 1997 a typo? If not who really cares about software over a year
>> >away.
>>
>> Hmmm... how long ago was the hype started about Quake? Have you
>> already forgotten about the years it took to develop Quake, and the
>> release was rushed! That is why Romero left.
>YOUR OPINION. I believe it's because Carmack was controlling the game.
>If you read the C|Net interview with Romero in the GameCenter, he says
>http://www.cnet.com/Gamecenter/News/August96/081496a.html
>I firmly and deeply believe in game design as the be-all and end-all of a game.
>My new company's philosophy and structure places the game designer at the top of
>the development wedge, where I personally believe they belong.
>Well, he wasn't getting that at Id. The game ENGINE was the center of
>development, not the DESIGNER.
Duh! We noticed that. Thats our entire point. Well, some whine about Quake
being slow but face it, 486s are dead. Quake was a huge dissapointment in
the game play department.
This may also explain why Tom Hall left ID to join 3Drealms. Remember, when
Tom was the project director for Doom., it was going to have a more
interactive world. I guess Romero finally got fed up with it too.
Now with John Romero, Tom Hall, Mark Dochtermann, and Jim Dose, we'll
finally get a good game out of Quake. Which is fine by me.
>> They rushed the
>> production just to get it out, and thus the quality of Quake has not
>> reached it's potential.
>Sounds like sour grapes to me; another Duke fan bitter that their love-child,
>Prey, isn't going to happen for a looooong time. Quake is a killer game. Could
>it have been better? Sure, but then so could Duke.
Please. Lets not start THAT flame war again. Face facts, even Romero wasn't
happy with Quake. Now that the creative forces of ID and 3Drealms are under
roof, we might see a seriously good game. This is a win win situation for
everyone. You'll get more poly shooters based on the Quake engine, and
we'll get a great game without having to wait for Prey. Can't you be just
happy that the best of all possible things might have just happen?
And Prey my still be Quake, or Unreal may be king. The future has just
gotten brighter. The only real loser is probably 3drealms. With Tom Hall
gone, I believe that hurts even the up comming build projects.
Rob M email: rob...@jagunet.com
Game Reviews @ http://www.jagunet.com/~robertm
"If you think there is a solution, you're part of the problem"- GC
Charlie Wiederhold
Yes, it has been cross posted to every end of USENET. I have not left
alt.games.duke3d once to go look at the Quake newgroup. So, as you can
tell... it is already on it's way to becoming another of those never
ending threads.
Actually, this is the only one I kinda don't mind being cross posted.
Since it isn't _totally_ a Duke vs Quake thread, it gives us the
chance to hear everyone's opinion from other portions of USENET. This
thread actually (so far) has some merit, and is the base for some
pretty good discussions of all games, and what is really going on in
the gaming world. Of course, we have our few geeks who just want to
flame someone, rather than actually thinking for once. Imagine that,
actually posting a reply that doesn't A) consist of almost 50% curse
words B) Just bash the person they are replying to just cause they
disagree C) Have no point whatsoever.
I am enjoying this thread, and hope it continues to work in this
manner. I'll shut up now. ;^)
*************************************************************
Charlie Wiederhold
WiederWeb - RTS Archive: http://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~wieder/ROTT/
wie...@mail.utexas.edu
We're looking for the best gun slingers in Texas!
http://rampages.onramp.net/~bminer/duke/index.htm
University of Texas at Austin - Computer Sciences
UT Longhorn Band
Lonnie McCullough
"Dave Glue" <dav...@interlog.com> wrote:
>No sloping floors. Makes a big difference in level design IMO. As well, I
>didn't see many room over room examples in Dark Forces, could you point one
>out?
I'm not sure what level it's on either first or second, but you walk
through these circular stairs, and there's a guard waiting for you in
a corner as you go up. Well any way the floor you end up on is above
another floor, the floor you just came from. There are other examples
but this was the only one I could think of right now.
Lonnie McCullough
lon...@nol.net