You know what Thief is..
Destroy
- got that off the rpg newsgroup, I thought it fit perfectly. May seem
obvious after the fact but I certainly didn't tag it as such until I
read it.
Kevin Nguyen
Rob > wrote in message <3669f...@newsread3.dircon.co.uk>...
>Isn't every game a something simulator? Doom is a space marine sim, HL a
>scientist-with-a-gun sim, Outlaws a western sim, etc etc? Games try to
>simulate, it's kind of the whole point.
>
>Or am I being stupid and missing a bigger issue? (It's late, so could be)
>
>Rob
>
>Destroy wrote in message <74cj51$7...@newsops.execpc.com>...
Rob "Xemu" Fermier
then.... :-)
I find it very ... interesting ... that the folks in the RPG newsgroup are
having a big discussion (dare I say, flame) about how Thief shouldn't be
there since it's not an RPG, and to a lesser extent, a similar conversation
here about how Thief shouldn't be here since it isn't an action game...
Flashbacks to System Shock's usenet discussions...
-- Rob "Xemu" Fermier
Lead Programmer, System Shock 2
Irrational Games, Inc.
www.irrational-games.com
NO @spamdircon.co.uk Rob
scientist-with-a-gun sim, Outlaws a western sim, etc etc? Games try to
simulate, it's kind of the whole point.
Or am I being stupid and missing a bigger issue? (It's late, so could be)
Rob
Destroy wrote in message <74cj51$7...@newsops.execpc.com>...
Jeff Jones
yeah, it's simulating real space-marines .... hmmm
Wayne Peterson
> its simply a thief simulator, medieval one.
>
> - got that off the rpg newsgroup, I thought it fit perfectly. May seem
> obvious after the fact but I certainly didn't tag it as such until I
> read it.
>
>
Dee
everything is in slow motion. :) :)
>
>I find it very ... interesting ... that the folks in the RPG newsgroup are
>having a big discussion (dare I say, flame) about how Thief shouldn't be
>there since it's not an RPG, and to a lesser extent, a similar conversation
>here about how Thief shouldn't be here since it isn't an action game...
-----
I don't get email so don't send it.
ttammi
>Isn't every game a something simulator? Doom is a space marine sim, HL a
>scientist-with-a-gun sim, Outlaws a western sim, etc etc? Games try to
>simulate, it's kind of the whole point.
No. I think simulation is always trying to be somewhat realistic in
what you can do and what you cannot.
Like in Doom for example, you are carryin, what, 50 rockets and 200
shotgun shells with you without any difficulty, running all the time?
And for some reason the enemy soldiers go down from a few shotgun
shots, while you can take lots of shots like it was nothing?
Thief seems to be much more realistic in what you can or cannot do and
it has lots of nice touches like not being able to aim with the bow
forever, but calling it a simulator is still stretching it. But nice
idea anyway.
Christopher A Tew
Yeah, yeah...now who came here to see me?
My impression from the demo was that it was a sim of pissing onto a
coed while completely blitzed at a frat party.
-Cat
--
"I'm a wanderer. I'm a rebel. I'm ballz out, dudes. Heh heh."
-Chester, from The Sifl and Olly Show
_____________________________________________________________
News
Also still like to bring up as most overlook this. Theif's player is
actually a human in statutre and not a midget.
Playing HL your character only is half as tall as a door which dials him in
around 3'6" (or slightly over two Quake steps tall) like all Quake games.
Midgets in a giants world. It's nice being 6" again....
They have a little more work ahead of them if they really want to call it a
sim, like others have stated there are things t nitpick if you are looking
for a perfect real thief game. But I can easily live with what they
delivered, Thief 2 is already on the must buy list, actually I'll I'd be
looking for would be a little more realisitc behavior as many have brought
up with co-op mode. They can keep the same graphics engine imo to speed up
the delivery of such a product.
BH
News
Dee wrote in message <366a1fa7...@news.pcisys.net>...
>But it IS an action game. Think of it as a John Woo action game and
>everything is in slow motion. :) :)
R:
Which brings up my biggest gripe with HL, it is way way way to fast, which
makes it loose a lot of suspense as you can just turn arond a haul ass
erasing your mind of the situation. The speed needs to defualt to the walk
speed and have a penalty of exhaustion when using the run to much. That is
why I firmly belive games like Thief and Resident Evil have more atmosphere
is becuase they slow you down getting you into the game more by
concentrating and thinking more as you move around and when hell breaks
loose you can't run off a breakneck speed.
On thte Thief action bit, if you were really there I'd bet that would be all
the action you would ever want. Quake throws a ton of monsters on the screen
with mega weapons and a over supply of health. If they did that in Thief as
you know you'd be toast. So they both have relative amounts of action based
on your abilities.
BH
Tom Leonard
>
> But it IS an action game. Think of it as a John Woo action game and
> everything is in slow motion. :) :)
me.
-Tom
Rygar1
>But it IS an action game. Think of it as a John Woo action game and
>everything is in slow motion. :) :)
But then you'd be using two bows, one in each hand :)
Sean Tudor
>its simply a thief simulator, medieval one.
>- got that off the rpg newsgroup, I thought it fit perfectly. May seem
>obvious after the fact but I certainly didn't tag it as such until I
>read it.
And without stating the obvious - your point ?
------------------------
Sean Tudor
Sydney, Australia
------------------------
This is my cannon, this is my gun
One is for bandits, and one is for fun
------------------------
vicious at magna dot com dot au
Christopher A Tew
yeah...now who came here to see me?
Naw. Two full-automatic crossbows without ammo limitations.
MAHK
>>scientist-with-a-gun sim, Outlaws a western sim, etc etc? Games try to
>>simulate, it's kind of the whole point.
>
>No. I think simulation is always trying to be somewhat realistic in
>what you can do and what you cannot.
>
*** Warning: possibly pedantic rant ahead ***
There's no such thing as a "pure" simulation game. All games are a mixture
of "simulation" and "emulation."
"Simulation" is used to describe systems, usually analog, that are rich
models of object behavior. The physics system in Thief (and most FPS games)
is a simulation, the way the Thief AI sees and hears objects is a
simulation. Simulation really has little to do with "realism;" You can
simulate unrealistic concepts like Superman or a fire-breathing dragon.
"Emulation" describes special-cased or rules-based behavior. A button that
opens a door is an "emulated" behavior in most games; there's no simulation
of the physics of the button depressing on a spring and making an electrical
contact, or of the electrical signal travelling along a wire to the door
actuators. (I can't speak for Trespasser :)
Simulation is good because it provides open-endedness; simulations are
likely to have interesting emergent behaviors and interactions. When it
works, it's a powerful tool for creating immersion. Emulation is good
because it provides predictability; once the player learns the rules, he can
reason within them.
I really think the difference between these two extremes is well represented
in the difference between Thief and Metal Gear Solid.
Thief is much more simulation-y: The player drops a vase and makes a noise,
the sound propagates through the level. If it's still loud enough when it
reaches a nearby guard, the guard takes note and starts searching in the
general area.
In Metal Gear Solid, only a few specific events make noise (hitting the
"make a noise button", walking through a puddle, etc). A nearby guard will
immediately beeline to the source of the noise. Simple and rules-based.
Both are valid strategies for designing a game, and both are good games
IMHO. But I think that Thief feels more immersive, and MGS feels more like
a video game. And to a certain degee, Thief's immersiveness is it's biggest
weakness.
Look back at the gameplay criticisms that Thief gets on this and other
newsgroups. "I can't destroy a lantern with my sword," "Guards don't pay
enough attention when X happens," etc. Why doesn't Metal Gear Solid get
similar complaints? "I can't blow up a security camera with my gun," "I
can't use my cigarrettes to blow smoke in a guard's face and stun him," etc.
Because Thief is a "simulation" and MGS is a "game," Thief begs the
questions, and MGS doesn't.
At their hearts, both games are trying to be *fun games*, not accurate
simulations.
- MAHK
spaceboy
once stoop to slagging a game off and appear able to appreciate what
makes various games distinctive and enjoyable. Sorry, MAHK, you won't
last long around here!
spaceboy
Andrew See
>its simply a thief simulator, medieval one.
>
>- got that off the rpg newsgroup, I thought it fit perfectly. May seem
>obvious after the fact but I certainly didn't tag it as such until I
>read it.
Profound statement that one...
Josh Boardman
> *** Warning: possibly pedantic rant ahead ***
>
> There's no such thing as a "pure" simulation game. All games are a mixture
> of "simulation" and "emulation."
<snip>
> At their hearts, both games are trying to be *fun games*, not accurate
> simulations.
Nice post. Maybe a wee bit on the logical side. I think you need to work on
your "mouth frothing" technique a little...
;-P
jk
Old Wolf
Christopher A Tew
yeah...now who came here to see me?
God, I have to change that intro.
>Both are valid strategies for designing a game, and both are good games
>IMHO. But I think that Thief feels more immersive, and MGS feels more like
>a video game. And to a certain degee, Thief's immersiveness is it's biggest
>weakness.
That's a good point. Whenever something is as slowly immersive as
Thief is, one little flaw in the game logic is very important because
that immersiveness is broken, and the nitpicking begins. Slowly
immersive? Okay, that's my kludge to describe how Thief is immersive.
A game like Carmageddon 2 or Quake 2 is immersive in a faster fashion,
you're always on the move, conflict is always right around the next
corner, and so forth. You're immersed because to play the game your
sensory inputs and reactions count much more than actual thinking and
so forth. Those games are like the described effects of crack. A
rush that's over quickly and leaves you wanting much more.
But in a game like Thief, the immersiveness is much more complete, and
it takes place at the speed of thought (I'm seperating concious
thought from nerve signals, here). But since you're taking more time
to ingest the surroundings and game logic, little inconsistancies are
dwelt upon much more and ultimately become more annoying.
That's my almost incomprehensible rant...
One of the things that excites me about Thief2 is that simulatons are
evolutionary. I imagine that Thief2 will have the same basic gameplay
as Theif, but the inconsitancies in logic (such as not being able to
put out a torch with a bucket of water) will be addressed.
-Cat, who has decided to buy Thief even though he's still bothered by
the blotchy/banded textures.
Kidrobo
Word! I think you have to play THIEF a bunch before you understand this
statement, though.
EXAMPLE:
I had been playing the Bafford mission for months, doing my usual routine.
There is one guard early on (the one near the metal floor in the celler) who I
always just blackjacked, and kept going...
One day I decided to try to play it completely different, and see what would
happen. I went into the room near the guard, snooped around, and found some
metal containers on the wall. I decided to throw one in the guard's room, but
far away from him.
He started to turn around. "Who made that noise???"
I sat silent, then realized that if he came my way, he would see me, so I put
out the torch in my room.
"I know you are there."
I grabbed another container, and threw it in the room next to mine. He started
towards the sound, and as he passed into my room , I slowly passed into his, so
he never saw me. I took off down the hallway with him still fumbling around in
the dark...
"Must of been rats..."
I turned to my officemate, ( the producer for our Flight Simulator line,) and
said "Damn! THIS IS LIKE A MIDEIVAL THIEF SIMULATOR!"
I'm glad somebody else thinks so too!
I love this game.
-ROBOTKID
Producer
THIEF: The Dark Project
LGS
Destroy
my decision to wait for Thief 2 or a better clone.
Jeff Townsend
>I had been playing the Bafford mission for months, doing my usual routine.
>There is one guard early on (the one near the metal floor in the celler)
who I
>always just blackjacked, and kept going...
>
>One day I decided to try to play it completely different,
So in essence the replayability of this game relies on the player making
things more difficult for him-herself since it's easy enough to just hit the
guy over the head and be on your way...
js...@sterrett.demon.co.uk
For the demo, yes.
For the full game, increasing the difficulty level of the game changes things
a fair amount by adding extra goals and restricting your actions (most
notably by limiting whom you may kill.)
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