where is my virtual reality?!!!!!!
Very3
pad thingy so I can actually walk into a new world and look around 360 degrees?
I mean I have heard and seen pictures of the 3d helmet but serously dont you
think they should be getting close to perfecting it? I only mention this
because I had a dream last night where I bought one, went into a game where it
plopped me into a huge city with cars and poeple walking around, and I had to
hide in this huge detailed city as police were driving around looking for me
and the object of the game was not to get caught.
I just hope it was a dream. anyways I am gettiong tired of the monitor in the
dark room thing.
The T Stands for Smooth
"Very3" <ve...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000302171341...@ng-fb1.aol.com...
Knight37
>They tried a few years ago - no one was particularly interested.
Wrong. It was prohibitively expensive and not widely supported by the
game developers. Let Microsoft or someone with big pockets refine this
technology, and it'll go over. Like Force Feedback and other unlikely
gimicks, VR is a dream that many gamers share, but no one has "done it
right" yet.
--
Knight37
"Living in the limelight, the universal dream,
for those who wish to seem.
Those who wish to be must put aside the alienation,
get on with the fascination, the realization,
the underlying theme." -- Rush "Limelight"
Worker Working
I, too, would like to see VR take off but I would guess that it won't
happen anytime soon. While it may be considerably cheaper nowadays to
make it I think most companies wouldn't bother even trying because of
how big a failure it was last time.
The last time it was considered I think 3 or 4 companies announced
products but only one came to market. Even that one was considerably
down-featured from its original specs and was still prohibitively
expensive. Nobody supported it with software.
I don't doubt that someone will try again, but I wouldn't hold my
breath.
Eep²
Worker Working wrote:
--
http://tnlc.com/eep/ - Active Worlds, Tomb Raider, 3D game comparison
Enable line/word wrap if text not wrapping!
Martin Keene (LIS)
VR headsets. I forget which one, though.
Destroy
main problems.
How much are you willing to spend for one of these things anyway? $2000 or $200?
The $2000 one may be possible but a $200 one is a LONG way away.
Joel Mathis
>smo...@home.com (The T Stands for Smooth) wrote:
>
>>They tried a few years ago - no one was particularly interested.
>
>Wrong. It was prohibitively expensive and not widely supported by the
>game developers. Let Microsoft or someone with big pockets refine this
>technology, and it'll go over. Like Force Feedback and other unlikely
>gimicks, VR is a dream that many gamers share, but no one has "done it
>right" yet.
Now wait a second. The big head tracking, surround sound models were
expensive, but there were sets of glasses for as little as $70
available and they still didn't sell or get developer support.
There's a few basic problems with the concept of VR. First and
foremost is eyestrain. You're in for a world of hurt if you use one
for any extended period of time. Somehow I don't think gamers want to
play for fifteen minutes and then take a break. Also, the effect
doesn't work for some people (myself being one of them). There's a
signifigant portion of the population who are going to just see double
images instead of the seemless 3D effect (if you're one of those
people who can't see stereograms then you won't be able to see the VR
effect). Finally, having something completely impare your vision
while playing a game even if you're a touch typist is not a good
thing.
Joel Mathis
See the Hot Sheet at Gone Gold for my take on the day's news
http://www.gonegold.com/hot
Knight37
>Rumor has it that knig...@gamespotmail.com (Knight37) wrote:
>
>>smo...@home.com (The T Stands for Smooth) wrote:
>>
>>>They tried a few years ago - no one was particularly interested.
>>
>>Wrong. It was prohibitively expensive and not widely supported by
>>the game developers. Let Microsoft or someone with big pockets
>>refine this technology, and it'll go over. Like Force Feedback and
>>other unlikely gimicks, VR is a dream that many gamers share, but
>>no one has "done it right" yet.
>
>Now wait a second. The big head tracking, surround sound models
>were expensive, but there were sets of glasses for as little as $70
>available and they still didn't sell or get developer support.
Cost isn't the only factor. If I recall, most of the reviewers said
that the cheaper glasses just didn't really provide a good experience,
and the more expensive techniques were just not economical.
>There's a few basic problems with the concept of VR. First and
>foremost is eyestrain. You're in for a world of hurt if you use one
>for any extended period of time. Somehow I don't think gamers want
>to play for fifteen minutes and then take a break. Also, the effect
>doesn't work for some people (myself being one of them). There's a
>signifigant portion of the population who are going to just see
>double images instead of the seemless 3D effect (if you're one of
>those people who can't see stereograms then you won't be able to see
>the VR effect). Finally, having something completely impare your
>vision while playing a game even if you're a touch typist is not a
>good thing.
All of these are problems (and many others you didn't list) that have
to be resolved before VR can be considered "done right." My point is
that VR is an ultimate goal for a lot of gamers. Sort of a Holy Grail
of Gaming. Just because it hasn't been done right yet, does not mean
gamers are not interested in the concept.
Haven't you read Neuromancer?
--
Knight37
"...and still he'd see the matrix in his sleep, bright lattices of
logic unfolding across that colorless void...."
-- William Gibson's _Neuromancer_
Knight37
>The holodeck is the next step. Granted, forcefield and transporter
>tech don't exist yet but simple hologram projections do. However,
>what needs to happen first is for a true 3D level editor to be
>created which allows seamless, integrated object
>creation/editing/manipulation. This will allow "computer PC 3D
>holodecks" (http://tnlc.com/eep/aw/ for more info) and will allow
>for much more creative gaming and immersive experiences not limited
>to "professional" programmers, artists, and game developers. Current
>level editors are just too clunky and unintuitive for most people to
>use.
I think you're skipping a lot of steps.
(VR-suit -> ??? -> Holodeck)
Me, I'm just waiting for direct neural interface to be invented.
Yeah. Cool.
--
Knight37
"Case sat in the loft with the dermatrodes strapped across his
forehead, watching motes dance in the diluted sunlight that filtered
through the grid overhead."
Mahmood
Knight37 <knig...@gamespotmail.com> wrote
> I think you're skipping a lot of steps.
Personally I think he just needs to turn on some word wrap, heh.
>
> (VR-suit -> ??? -> Holodeck)
>
> Me, I'm just waiting for direct neural interface to be invented.
> Yeah. Cool.
Well, there'll at least be one great thing when we all have direct T3 drops
to the backs of our heads: if anyone complains about lag then, he'll just
be admitting that he can't think fast enough ; )
Mark Stevens
wrote:
>Cost isn't the only factor.
You're right. Another factor to consider is that anyone who wears such
a device looks a complete spanner.
>My point is that VR is an ultimate goal for a lot of gamers.
Personally, I'd put "more innovative games" at the top of my list. A
virtual reality helmet is way down near the bottom.
--
Mark Stevens
Joel Mathis
>All of these are problems (and many others you didn't list) that have
>to be resolved before VR can be considered "done right."
Yeah, I was thinking of the medical issues mainly. The stuff they
can't correct.
> My point is
>that VR is an ultimate goal for a lot of gamers. Sort of a Holy Grail
>of Gaming. Just because it hasn't been done right yet, does not mean
>gamers are not interested in the concept.
>
>Haven't you read Neuromancer?
Yep. That book convinced me to use a text interface for everything.
;-)
The T Stands for Smooth
"Knight37" <knig...@gamespotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8EEBB38CFknigh...@209.30.0.14...
> smo...@home.com (The T Stands for Smooth) wrote:
>
> >They tried a few years ago - no one was particularly interested.
>
> Wrong. It was prohibitively expensive and not widely supported by the
> game developers.
Hence - no one was particularly interested.
John Hartridge
that consisted of a large sphere supported on rollers. Images were
projected
onto the outside of the sphere which was made of a translucent material.
The
user stood inside the sphere. When you walked, the sphere rotated because
of the rollers, which felt like (almost) normal walking, and it also
provided
the input to the image generating computer change the view to simulate
moving around. Looked quite impressive, but probably still required a
massive
leap in processing power to truly look realistic.
--
John Hartridge
john.ha...@ffei.co.uk
Very3 wrote in message <20000302171341...@ng-fb1.aol.com>...
>what is taking so long for them to design and market a 3d helmet and
walking
>pad thingy so I can actually walk into a new world and look around 360
degrees?
Andreas Dieling
> They tried a few years ago - no one was particularly interested.
Because it was to expensive and the resolution was too low...
--
Hi, i'm a signature virus! Copy me into your ~/.signature to help me spread!
D. Booth
ve...@aol.com (Very3) writes:
> what is taking so long for them to design and market a 3d helmet and walking
> pad thingy so I can actually walk into a new world and look around 360 degrees?
> I mean I have heard and seen pictures of the 3d helmet but serously dont you
> think they should be getting close to perfecting it? I only mention this
> plopped me into a huge city with cars and poeple walking around, and I had to
> hide in this huge detailed city as police were driving around looking for me
> and the object of the game was not to get caught.
> I just hope it was a dream. anyways I am gettiong tired of the monitor in the
> dark room thing.
I think the real reason VR has never been properly pushed is that the potential
manufacturers feared the possible law-suits arising out of the damage that VR
sets could cause. There have been lots of well documented studies showing that
VR sets caused nausea,eye strain, diziness and disorientation in users even over
short periods (not to mention epilepsy etc.) None of the big corporations like
Sony, Sega or Microsoft would want to risk the possible lawsuits and bad publicity
that would lead from making users ill.
Myabe one day this will happen, but for now this is still one for the movies and
William Gibson...
--
Dan B. - http://public.connect.org.uk/~dan/
\\\///
o o
mr bernard langham
>
> Yep. That book convinced me to use a text interface for everything.
> ;-)
>
Heh.
>^..^<
Bernard
--
mr bernard langham . blu...@ii.net . perth, western ashtraylia
cassetteNET/DIY lo-fi punkarama/indie vs major FAQ http://ii.net/~blueboy
spiral scratch independent label show/RTRfm public radio http://rtr.fm.net
--
"Feel free to cite, sample, steal, sell, reference, borrow or plagiarize
anything that I have created, thought or said. Information wants to be free
and intellectual property is both anachronistic and wrong" -- Meme #96
bottled water
ultimate Quake game then go to your local Laser Tag or organize a paintball
group. Finding players for paintball is tough though. I wish they have a
center, like how servers work for Quake, where people just stand there
waiting for a game to open up. You want VR sex? Go to a brothel or
something. VR driving? We have that right now! It's called a "testdrive".
Go "testdrive" that latest BMW you want.
One thing I want a VR for is to play RPGs. There's no monsters to hack in
real life and if they do have one, chances are it's against the law to hack
them to death.
Very3 wrote in message <20000302171341...@ng-fb1.aol.com>...
mche...@my-deja.com
ve...@aol.com (Very3) wrote:
> what is taking so long for them to design and market a 3d helmet and
walking
> pad thingy so I can actually walk into a new world and look around
360 degrees?
> I mean I have heard and seen pictures of the 3d helmet but serously
dont you
> think they should be getting close to perfecting it? I only mention
this
> because I had a dream last night where I bought one, went into a game
where it
> plopped me into a huge city with cars and poeple walking around, and
I had to
> hide in this huge detailed city as police were driving around looking
for me
> and the object of the game was not to get caught.
> I just hope it was a dream. anyways I am gettiong tired of the
monitor in the
> dark room thing.
>
I tend to agree with you. VR interfaces are a technology whose time has
just about come, I think. We now have the ability to make compact, high
resolution headsets with good motion tracking and we have PCs which can
handle complex geometry environments at high framerates.
One problem, which several people have pointed out, however, is that
consumer VR has a highly checkered past already. The reason for that is
fairly simple, though. Manufacturers tried to deploy the technology
several years before it was mature enough to deliver a compelling
experience and the results were pretty disappointing. The biggest
issues were that the displays of the time were low resolution
(~320x200) and the PCs couldn't push enough polys for you to look
around an environment without really serious stuttering. We've passed
that point now, but the people who were burned the first time around
are understandably wary about trying the whole thing again.
The technology is there, though. We have the ability to build 800x600+
screens the size of a postage stamp. We have high end 3d accellerators
that can deliver compelling content at 60 frames per second. The trick
now is to convince hardware manufacturers that it's worth the effort to
deliver the new technology and more importantly, we must convince
software developers that they can rely on this new technology to show
off their creations in a more favorable light than last time.
The software developers are the lynch-pin to this whole discussion and
as another poster pointed out, it's going to take a heavy-weight like
Microsoft to really drive the effort. But imagine what they could do
with this technology. I have a fantasy about a 3D virtual windowed
environment where my applications hang in the air around me. Simply
reach up and pull down your word processor or your web browser and get
to work. Forget about bitmaps of your favorite sportscar or piece of
artwork for a background. Do your work while sitting in the middle of a
gothic cathedral or at the race track. Obviously, if you have support
at the OS level, you make it very attractive to developers to write to
that interface.
I realize that this is very pie-in-the-sky kind of conjecture, but
there is little, technologically speaking, preventing us from taking
our systems to this next level. The problem, of course, is momentum. As
quickly as everyone seems to believe that the computer industry moves,
we're just as slow to adopt new technology as many other industries.
Only now are we reaching the point where the computer hardware industry
is beginning to make a concerted effort to abandon legacy architecture
like ISA, parallel and serial interfaces, and IDE in favor of more
modern technologies like USB, Firewire, and so on. That's only taken
almost 20 years (PCI notwithstanding, but you get the point). VR, while
technologically and economically feasable, faces the considerable
momentum of analog monitors and people's attachment to what they
already know. It's hard to teach an old dog new tricks and it's going
to require a killer app to compel users to want to switch to new
technology.
Now, some mention has been made of the possible medical issues involved
in VR. This is certainly worth mentioning, but I don't believe the
problem is so pronounced that it would seriously inhibit the adoption
of such an interface. There is talk of dizziness/nausea/epilepsy and so
on, but these are issues that many users suffer with existing
technology. Every Playstation game in existance has an epilepsy
disclaimer somewhere in the manual, and I still frequently see users in
newsgroups complaining that this first person shooter or that makes
them nauseous after 15 minutes of play. Will this be more common with
VR interfaces? Possibly. But people are resilient and adaptive and I
think the benefits of the interface are substantial enough that people
would likely acclimate to it over time. It's not like everything would
switch to VR over night. And I expect that VR would never completely
supplant conventional displays as there are many environments,
especially in the business world, where VR would not be appropriate.
Customer service operations where individuals must interact directly
with clients is the first that leaps to mind. Obviously there would be
a great many others.
Sadly, because of history and momentum, it will probably take quite a
while for VR to take off in the consumer realm. While this is
disappointing for many of us who understand how close we are to being
able to utilize this technology, we can rest assured that our dreams
will be realized eventually once people of vision in the
hardware/software industries realize that the time has come and that
history is unlikely to repeat itself. In the mean time, I am content to
interface with my computer with the technology on hand which, all
things considered, is completely adequate for the work and play we
currently engage in. I'm hopeful, however, that those individuals
driving the advancements in technology will begin to see the advantages
of taking display technology to the next level and will be brave enough
to lead the rest of us into an exciting new world.
-MikeC
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Knight37
>Well, there'll at least be one great thing when we all have direct
>T3 drops to the backs of our heads: if anyone complains about lag
>then, he'll just be admitting that he can't think fast enough ; )
Those weak minds will be culled from the genepool. ;p
--
Knight37
"A planet of playthings
We dance on the strings
Of powers we cannot perceive
'The stars aren't aligned ---
Or the gods are malign'
Blame is better to give than receive" -- Rush "Free Will"
Knight37
>On Fri, 03 Mar 2000 01:35:09 GMT, knig...@gamespotmail.com (Knight37)
>wrote:
>
>>Cost isn't the only factor.
>
>You're right. Another factor to consider is that anyone who wears such
>a device looks a complete spanner.
>
>>My point is that VR is an ultimate goal for a lot of gamers.
>
>Personally, I'd put "more innovative games" at the top of my list. A
>virtual reality helmet is way down near the bottom.
I am NOT talking about a lame VR helmet gadget.
I am talking about VIRTUAL REALITY. You are *IN* the game.
You see it. You hear it. You feel it. Smell it. Taste it.
You live it. That's what I'm talking about.
Knight37
>Some of the concepts of VR just doesn't make any sense. If you want
>the ultimate Quake game then go to your local Laser Tag or organize
>a paintball group. Finding players for paintball is tough though.
>I wish they have a center, like how servers work for Quake, where
>people just stand there waiting for a game to open up. You want VR
>sex? Go to a brothel or something. VR driving? We have that right
>now! It's called a "testdrive". Go "testdrive" that latest BMW you
>want.
You're missing the point of VR.
The point of VR is to allow you to BE someone you aren't, in PLACES
that do not exist, doing things that you CAN NOT do already. What about
a VR Star Wars? Fly an XWING. Really feel like you ARE Luke Skywalker.
You're there, blowing up the Death Star, choppin' daddy's hand off, and
all that. You can't do this in real life. In VR, you could.
>One thing I want a VR for is to play RPGs. There's no monsters to
>hack in real life and if they do have one, chances are it's against
>the law to hack them to death.
EXACLTLY! Now you're getting it! VR is for the ultimate RPG
experience.
--
Knight37
"There are two kinds of people in this world, my friend.
Those with loaded guns, and those who dig. You dig."
-- Blonde, from "The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly"
Very3
instead of looking into one.
you guys are messed in the head. crying about eyestrain and lawsuits developers
would get because virtual reality helmets would cause nausea and hurt eys.
cripes, poeple haved had epileptic siezures and all those things playing
freakin sega and pc games anyways, stuff like that happening in a minority of
poeple never stopped them from making pc and sega games.
they didnt do it in my opinion because the technology just isnt here yet. it is
clumsy and awkward.
Eep²
> Knight37 <knig...@gamespotmail.com> wrote
> > I think you're skipping a lot of steps.
>
> Personally I think he just needs to turn on some word wrap, heh.
Note my sig. Read it this time, eh?
Eep²
> Some of the concepts of VR just doesn't make any sense. If you want the
> ultimate Quake game then go to your local Laser Tag or organize a paintball
> group. Finding players for paintball is tough though. I wish they have a
> center, like how servers work for Quake, where people just stand there
> waiting for a game to open up. You want VR sex? Go to a brothel or
> something. VR driving? We have that right now! It's called a "testdrive".
> Go "testdrive" that latest BMW you want.
The whole POINT about 3D games and VR is about doing things people wouldn't/couldn't normally do in real life. Games like Test Drive allow you to test drive (duh) cars you would probably never normally EVER get the chance to drive. Games are an escape, and just because they may be VERY realistic doesn't mean they still don't offer some kind of escape. Realism and escapism are relative.
> One thing I want a VR for is to play RPGs. There's no monsters to hack in
> real life and if they do have one, chances are it's against the law to hack
> them to death.
> Very3 wrote in message <20000302171341...@ng-fb1.aol.com>...
> >what is taking so long for them to design and market a 3d helmet and
> walking
> >pad thingy so I can actually walk into a new world and look around 360
> degrees?
> >I mean I have heard and seen pictures of the 3d helmet but serously dont
> you
> >think they should be getting close to perfecting it? I only mention this
> >because I had a dream last night where I bought one, went into a game where
> it
> >plopped me into a huge city with cars and poeple walking around, and I had
> to
> >hide in this huge detailed city as police were driving around looking for
> me
> >and the object of the game was not to get caught.
> >I just hope it was a dream. anyways I am gettiong tired of the monitor in
> the
> >dark room thing.
The above is why longer line lengths are better: no text breakup when quoting!
The same quote fixed:
Very3 wrote in message <20000302171341...@ng-fb1.aol.com>...
>what is taking so long for them to design and market a 3d helmet and walking
>pad thingy so I can actually walk into a new world and look around 360 degrees?
>I mean I have heard and seen pictures of the 3d helmet but serously dont you
>think they should be getting close to perfecting it? I only mention this
>because I had a dream last night where I bought one, went into a game where it
>plopped me into a huge city with cars and poeple walking around, and I had to
>hide in this huge detailed city as police were driving around looking for me
>and the object of the game was not to get caught.
>I just hope it was a dream. anyways I am gettiong tired of the monitor in the
>dark room thing.
Much better, eh?
Eep²
mr bernard langham wrote:
> > The software developers are the lynch-pin to this whole discussion and
> > as another poster pointed out, it's going to take a heavy-weight like
> > Microsoft to really drive the effort.
>
> This is not so far-fetched as it might seem. Much as we (and I) love to hate
> Microsoft, I have to admit they've come out with some interesting,
> innovative "human interface" (ack, terrible term) devices recently, and have
> the clout to make them catch on and become industry standards. I'm talking
> about mice with wheels (M$ first, now the industry standard), their new
> optical mouse (probably soon to be the industry standard), their gamepad
> which handles the pitch/yaw axis by using motion detection, and so forth. So
> maybe one day they'll surprise us with a little pair of VR glasses (with
> proprietary hardware support thru DirectX, of course).
A.
> VR sets caused nausea,eye strain, diziness and disorientation in users even over
> short periods (not to mention epilepsy etc.) None of the big corporations like
> Sony, Sega or Microsoft would want to risk the possible lawsuits and bad publicity
> that would lead from making users ill.
>
> Myabe one day this will happen, but for now this is still one for the movies and
> William Gibson...
Yeah, but think of the money drug companies could make off us. I just
hope there's a way to plug my brain into a virtual-reality world when
I'm like 80. By then my hands will be riddled with arthritis/carpel
tunnel syndrome, I won't remember my own name from alzheimer disease,
but I'll have a big 'ol grin on my face walking into a virtual strip
club in Duke Nukem 2050.
bottled water
research. The porn industry (de)generates more money than the computer
industry. They have always been the first to take advantage of new
technology such as DVDs, multi-angle DVDs, Virtual Valery, livecam websites,
those interesting toys, and of course, vibrating rubber vaginas.
Remember Nintendo's powerglove? The magic they could do with that, but I
don't think those bastards at Nintendo would put a seal of approval on those
titles.
mr bernard langham
> as another poster pointed out, it's going to take a heavy-weight like
> Microsoft to really drive the effort.
This is not so far-fetched as it might seem. Much as we (and I) love to hate
Microsoft, I have to admit they've come out with some interesting,
innovative "human interface" (ack, terrible term) devices recently, and have
the clout to make them catch on and become industry standards. I'm talking
about mice with wheels (M$ first, now the industry standard), their new
optical mouse (probably soon to be the industry standard), their gamepad
which handles the pitch/yaw axis by using motion detection, and so forth. So
maybe one day they'll surprise us with a little pair of VR glasses (with
proprietary hardware support thru DirectX, of course).
Mark Rave
> > >what is taking so long for them to design and market a 3d helmet and
> > walking
> > >pad thingy so I can actually walk into a new world and look around 360
> > degrees?
> > >I mean I have heard and seen pictures of the 3d helmet but serously dont
> > you
> > >think they should be getting close to perfecting it? I only mention this
> > >because I had a dream last night where I bought one, went into a game where
> > it
> > >plopped me into a huge city with cars and poeple walking around, and I had
> > to
> > >hide in this huge detailed city as police were driving around looking for
> > me
> > >and the object of the game was not to get caught.
> > >I just hope it was a dream. anyways I am gettiong tired of the monitor in
> > the
> > >dark room thing.
>
>
> The same quote fixed:
>
> >what is taking so long for them to design and market a 3d helmet and walking
> >pad thingy so I can actually walk into a new world and look around 360 degrees?
> >I mean I have heard and seen pictures of the 3d helmet but serously dont you
> >think they should be getting close to perfecting it? I only mention this
> >because I had a dream last night where I bought one, went into a game where it
> >plopped me into a huge city with cars and poeple walking around, and I had to
> >hide in this huge detailed city as police were driving around looking for me
> >and the object of the game was not to get caught.
> >I just hope it was a dream. anyways I am gettiong tired of the monitor in the
> >dark room thing.
>
> --
>
Amen brother, praise the mighty word wrap. Drag us into the light of your knowledge !
Mark Rave
Conform man !!
Eep² wrote:
> Mahmood wrote:
>
> > Knight37 <knig...@gamespotmail.com> wrote
> > > I think you're skipping a lot of steps.
> >
> > Personally I think he just needs to turn on some word wrap, heh.
>
> Note my sig. Read it this time, eh?
D. Booth
Duke Nukem 2050? Nah, we'll still be waiting for Duke Nukem Forever
and bitchin' about when Daikatana is going to be released :)
Brian Siano
Very3 wrote:
> what is taking so long for them to design and market a 3d helmet and walking
> pad thingy so I can actually walk into a new world and look around 360 degrees?
You can buy one at the same Vend-O-Mat where you can buy
baby boys or girls. You can take the monorail, your personal helicopter,
or just jet-pack on over to the Technology Supermarket just north of the
Ministry of Love, across the street from the Soma Factory and
the Euthanasia Clinic. It's the big geodesic dome with the ads
for Soylent Green around the base.
--
Brian Siano - bsi...@cceb.med.upenn.edu
Center for Clinical Epidemiology and Biostatistics
722 Blockley Hall, 423 Guardian Drive
Philadelphia, PA 19104
Phone: 215-898-0901 Fax: 215-573-5325
Knight37
>> >monitor in
>> the
>> >dark room thing.
>
>The above is why longer line lengths are better: no text breakup
>when quoting!
If you had a decent news reader that autoformats for you, you wouldn't
get that problem. ;P
--
Knight37
"All these moments will fade away,
like tears in the rain."
-- Roy Batty, "Blade Runner"