"Borderlands not "cel shaded"
Mr Rob
According to a post on the "Borderlands" forum the game is not
cel-shaded because "Cel-shaded animation is a type of
non-photorealistic rendering designed to make computer graphics appear
to be hand-drawn".
They can stick their semantics where the sun doesn't shine. That's
another game that I was looking forward to that I now won't be
bothering with.
If I wanted to take part in an interactive cartoon I'd subscribe to
"Tom and Jerry Online". How anybody can find this kind of rendering in
the least bit immersive is absolutely beyond me. I absolutely detest
this type of graphics.
http://borderlandsguide.com/category/image-galleries/preview-screenshots-april-2009
http://borderlandsguide.com/category/image-galleries/preview-screenshots-april-2009
http://borderlandsguide.com/forum/has-borderlands-gone-cell-shaded-graphics
--
Rob
Toby Newman
I can find the most abstract retro arcade graphics to be immersive if
the gameplay's there. A little black-lining does nothing to offend me.
--
-Toby
Add the word afiduluminag to the subject to circumvent my email filters.
Mr Rob
wrote:
>I can find the most abstract retro arcade graphics to be immersive if
>the gameplay's there. A little black-lining does nothing to offend me.
I can tolerate less that modern graphics, and frequently do so when
plumbing the depths of the world of the craptastic FPS. However, there
is something intrinsically wrong with line drawn graphics in a FPS,
especially one that is meant to be set in a post apocalyptic "Mad Max"
world.
I want to immerse myself in the world as well as enjoy the gameplay
rather than spend all my time thinking "fuck me, this reminds me of
"The Bash Street Kids" from "Whizzer and Chips". I simply cannot play
XIII for that very reason. I couldn't play "The Merchants of Brooklyn"
recently either.
The pleasure that I derive from gaming is divided into several
aspects, graphics is not the most important, but a believable world in
keeping with the gameplay is extremely important. If I tried to play
Borderlands I just know that I'd expect a flag exclaiming "BANG" to
pop out of every gun fired.
I much preferred the earlier look Borderlands. I just cannot imagine
what Gearbox is thinking with this change. Reading the gamers
reactions in several forums and then reading the response from Gearbox
leads me to imagine the Gearbox devs sitting with their fingers in
their saying "laalaalaa we can't hear you".
They want to do something different with their game that distinguishes
it from any other shooter out there apparently. So go and make a great
game with innovative gameplay ideas and thrill your fans instead of
making a derivative shooter that is only different because it wouldn't
look out of place in a Saturday afternoon Walt Disney cinema matinee.
This is how they should have left the game looking:
http://borderlandsguide.com/category/image-galleries/preview-screenshots-october
--
Rob
Mr Rob
<noemail...@jsjsaiiowppw.com> wrote:
>This is how they should have left the game looking:
>
>http://borderlandsguide.com/category/image-galleries/preview-screenshots-october
Having now seen the cover of the June issue of PC Gamer I feel even
more pissed off. Gearbox might as well rename this game "Paper Mario
vs the 2D Monsters from Koopa Land" and be done with it.
Twats.
http://uk.gamespot.com/images/0/viewer/1?blog=1&path=2009/105/borderlands_ss1_full986_screen.jpg
--
Rob
Tim O
First thing I thought was "comic book" not cell shading, so I think
they succeeded in what they were going for. It also looks like a
relatively minor effect, like something that isn't built into the
character/vehicle models and could be toggled off (if they were
smart).
I find the skinny twink looking bodies on many of the characters more
visually wrong than the black outlining.
Spalls Hurgenson
<noemail...@jsjsaiiowppw.com> wrote:
>
>According to a post on the "Borderlands" forum the game is not
>cel-shaded because "Cel-shaded animation is a type of
>non-photorealistic rendering designed to make computer graphics appear
>to be hand-drawn".
>
>They can stick their semantics where the sun doesn't shine. That's
>another game that I was looking forward to that I now won't be
>bothering with.
>
>If I wanted to take part in an interactive cartoon I'd subscribe to
>"Tom and Jerry Online". How anybody can find this kind of rendering in
>the least bit immersive is absolutely beyond me. I absolutely detest
>this type of graphics.
>
Well, I'm not quite so upset about the change in graphics as others
seem to be, but I'm interested to see that I'm not alone in not
appreciating the new artistic direction. I'll hold off my opinion of
the game until its actually released but, yeah, if how the game looks
were the sole criterion then Borderlands would be a flop. Whatever. I
still had rather they stuck with the original graphics, even if it did
mean it would look like every other game out there. There's probably a
reason for that...
I did get a laugh out of their insistence it wasn't "cel-shaded", it
was "concept-art" style.
JAB
Well I thought a similar thing when the documentary "cartoon" Waltz with
Bashir was released but it's surprising immersive and if I was Barry
Norman I'd be able to tell you why!
Mr Rob
wrote:
>First thing I thought was "comic book" not cell shading, so I think
>they succeeded in what they were going for. It also looks like a
>relatively minor effect, like something that isn't built into the
>character/vehicle models and could be toggled off (if they were
>smart).
It's a gimmick and one that adds nothing to the game, quite the
opposite for a lot of people it seems.
In the months leading up to this it was quite clear that some people
would buy this game regardless of whether it is any good, simply based
on the Lore behind it. Other people were willing to try it out because
it is an Action FPS that looks good and has some appeal to fans of the
genre.
The former group of people will still likely buy it, a proportion of
the latter are going to be put off by the choice of rendering style
and won't now make a purchase. It is highly unlikely that people that
weren't already interested in the game or the genre will suddenly
decide to buy the game purely based on the new rendering choice. It
seems bizarre to deliberately alienate potential customers in this
way.
One could be forgiven for thinking that the Gearbox development team
has succumbed to an artistic desire that has resulted in the somewhat
delusional idea that it makes the game somehow better. It wouldn't be
the first time that a dev team has implemented "things that we as
gamers wanted to see in the game" only to find themselves completely
out of touch with their target audience.
>I find the skinny twink looking bodies on many of the characters more
>visually wrong than the black outlining.
That doesn't help, but I personally find that this style of rendering
accentuates the scrawny look. Borderlands looks like some kind of
bastard son of an Anime game now.
--
Rob
Andrew
<noemail...@jsjsaiiowppw.com> wrote:
>If I wanted to take part in an interactive cartoon I'd subscribe to
>"Tom and Jerry Online". How anybody can find this kind of rendering in
>the least bit immersive is absolutely beyond me. I absolutely detest
>this type of graphics.
Personally it doesn't bother me at all, I have played and enjoyed
several cel-shaded/comic games. As we are still a massive way from
photo realistic graphics and physics, every gaming experience is about
suspending disbelief. I can get just as caught up in a comic style
world as I can with Crysis with its pseudo realism that is jarringly
far from real.
--
Andrew, contact via http://interpleb.googlepages.com
Help make Usenet a better place: English is read downwards,
please don't top post. Trim replies to quote only relevant text.
Check groups.google.com before asking an obvious question.
CJM
I think this type of graphics is great...for certain types of games. TF2
is fantastic, and the cel-shading is in keeping with the stylised humour
fo the game. I think it would be appropriate for many
comic/superhero/manga-derived games or many games with humour.
However, a 'Mad-Max' type game, where the mood is meant to be more
serious even if the hardly realistic, I would hope to see 'serious'
graphics.
The reason the Clone Wars cartoon series uses the animation techniques
that it does is because it would be too expensive to render
'photo-realistic' graphics and even more expensive to film live actors
on sets (+ CGI). Fair enough - the end result is engaging and immersive.
For a game like this? It seems like they couldn't or didn't want to be
compared to the better looking games of the present day. They've opted
out of the quest for quality and opted for 'style'. A kop-out especially
as the style seems contrary to the mood of the game - it is almost an
invitation not to take the game seriously.
I've got no particular emotional investment in this game, but I'll
remain open minded. Upon release, I'll see what the punter reviews and
watch a few clips before deciding.
Walter Mitty
Mr Rob <noemail...@jsjsaiiowppw.com> writes:
XIII was excellent.
--
I want to keep fighting because it is the only thing that keeps me out
of the hamburger joints. If I don't fight, I'll eat this planet.
-- George Foreman
Tim O
<cjmu...@gmail.removethis.com> wrote:
>I've got no particular emotional investment in this game, but I'll
>remain open minded. Upon release, I'll see what the punter reviews and
>watch a few clips before deciding.
Same here... Though I've seen it mentioned, I haven't been following
it at all. Just looking at the screenshots, I wonder if they did this
to visually seperate it from Fallout 3.
Flo 'Irian' Schaetz
> XIII was excellent.
I liked XIII, but it should be really forbidden to make a game
open-ended if you never actually release a sequel.
Flo
Andrew
<cjmu...@gmail.removethis.com> wrote:
>However, a 'Mad-Max' type game, where the mood is meant to be more
>serious even if the hardly realistic, I would hope to see 'serious'
>graphics.
I don't see why. With the likes of Manga and Alan Moore comics, it
shows you can have a very gritty and hard edge world portrayed with
less "serious" graphics.
noman
> On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 14:50:43 +0100, CJM
> <cjmu...@gmail.removethis.com> wrote:
>
> > However, a 'Mad-Max' type game, where the mood is meant to be more
> > serious even if the hardly realistic, I would hope to see 'serious'
> > graphics.
>
> I don't see why. With the likes of Manga and Alan Moore comics, it
> shows you can have a very gritty and hard edge world portrayed with
> less "serious" graphics.
Full Throttle was great and it wasn't based on realistic digitized
images (the in-thing for adventure games at the time)
I think Borderlands screenshots look fine.
--
Noman
noman
> Having now seen the cover of the June issue of PC Gamer I feel even
> more pissed off. Gearbox might as well rename this game "Paper Mario
> vs the 2D Monsters from Koopa Land" and be done with it.
>
> Twats.
>
> http://uk.gamespot.com/images/0/viewer/1?blog=1&path=2009/105/borderla
> nds_ss1_full986_screen.jpg
Looks good to me.
--
Noman
Spalls Hurgenson
>On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 16:12:24 +0200, Walter Mitty <mitt...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>
>>XIII was excellent.
>
> I agree..was a game to be remembered and had great FPS action and
>weapons. Good story line also..think I'll dig it out and try it
>again..brings back good memories.
I remember XIII less fondly. Not because of its story or graphics -I
wasn't overwhelmed by those, but they weren't without merit- but
because of the mandatory stealth levels, where detection usually meant
"mission failed".
And I think it had jumping puzzles too.
Still, I should give it a second chance; I haven't played it since it
first came out. I did try to replay it a year ago, but I never could
get it running on XP... :-(
Anssi Saari
> If I wanted to take part in an interactive cartoon I'd subscribe to
> "Tom and Jerry Online". How anybody can find this kind of rendering in
> the least bit immersive is absolutely beyond me. I absolutely detest
> this type of graphics.
You detest cel shading? You who likes weird and usually bad FPS games?
What if they use it in a bad FPS game, would it be OK then?
Mr Rob
>You detest cel shading? You who likes weird and usually bad FPS games?
>What if they use it in a bad FPS game, would it be OK then?
I would set fire to the disks with a 7kg hammer if a perfectly good
craptastic shooter was ruined by cel shading / line drawing /concept
arty farty look or whatever BS excuse they came up with for using
cheap graphics.
--
Rob
Mr Rob
> Apperently you never played Xlll..realy good shooter.
Apparently I did and I apparently didn't like it.
I appear to have said that in an earlier post in this thread.
Saving Private Ryan was a great film. I don't think I could have
watched it and enjoyed it if it was a cartoon.
Cel-shading doesn't make a game great, it's just a cheap way to render
it under the shallow guise of "being different". XIII would have been
just as good if it had used the Source Engine. For some people it
would have actually been a game that they would have bought.
I highly doubt that XIII got a sales boost because it was cel shaded.
However much we might like to kid ourselves, graphics do actually
matter. There is an entire industry based around the fact that people
will willingly spend money on upgrades for better and better rendering
engines.
Cel shading will never be more than a gimmick because mainstream
gamers are not interested in that kind of presentation.
--
Rob
Scatter
> plumbing the depths of the world of the craptastic FPS. However, there
> is something intrinsically wrong with line drawn graphics in a FPS,
> especially one that is meant to be set in a post apocalyptic "Mad Max"
> world.
It's an art style and as such will have people divided. The recent
gritty console game "Mad World" uses a pencil line comic book art
style. Team Fortress 2 looks very cartoonish.
Personally I'm glad that not every game has the same 3D engine look. I
find it kind of refreshing - of course gameplay is much more important.
Toby Newman
> On Thu, 04 Jun 2009 00:08:19 -0400, Legion <Leg...@Invalid.com> wrote:
>
>> Apperently you never played Xlll..realy good shooter.
>
> Apparently I did and I apparently didn't like it.
>
> I appear to have said that in an earlier post in this thread.
>
> Saving Private Ryan was a great film. I don't think I could have
> watched it and enjoyed it if it was a cartoon.
I think that's a personal thing. I'm able to adapt to stuff like that
very quickly and would have had no problem with SPR if it was
animated.
Tim O
wrote:
>> Saving Private Ryan was a great film. I don't think I could have
>> watched it and enjoyed it if it was a cartoon.
>
>I think that's a personal thing. I'm able to adapt to stuff like that
>very quickly and would have had no problem with SPR if it was
>animated.
Most people don't adapt, which explains why the Star Wars Clone Wars
movie/cartoon (stupidest idea ever) was out of theaters in a couple of
weeks. It made money because it was such a low budget movie, but is
considered the first ever Star Wars movie flop.
CJM
>
> Most people don't adapt, which explains why the Star Wars Clone Wars
> movie/cartoon (stupidest idea ever) was out of theaters in a couple of
> weeks. It made money because it was such a low budget movie, but is
> considered the first ever Star Wars movie flop.
I'm watching the Clone Wars TV series (same as the film or an
extension?) with my daughter, and I'm actually enjoying it. The Star
Wars films are hardly high-brow, but I see the cartoon series as being
child-centric; it's certainly more sanitised. And accordingly, I don't
mind that it is a cartoon. However, if they made an adult-centric movie
in the same way, I could never take it seriously.
Maybe it says more about me, but I suspect I'm not alone.
Toby Newman
You guys need to watch "The Grave of the Fireflies" some time.
Shawk
..or the 'Plague Dogs', a great animated version of a Richard Adams book.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ostgqhDjIo
Still, that said, I'm with Rob. I don't mind if the graphics in my
games aren't cutting edge but they must be good enough to convey the
mood and atmosphere of the world I'm supposed to be in (I'm thinking of
Stalker as an example). I don't see cartoon-style graphics doing that
very successfully unless the game is meant to be light-hearted like TF2.