3DFX VooDoo Tomb Raider - INCREDIBLE
von...@accessone.com
I just downloaded the BETA 3DFX VooDoo Tomb Raider patch (from the
www.tombraider.com) and its a totally new game!! It was playable but
a little jerky without the patch, but silky smooth to play and
beautiful to look at with the patch. There are a few inconsitencies
in the mip-mapping (mentioned in the readme file) but they should be
worked out prior to release of the production patch. Now if only the
VooDoo version of Mech II would ship.
3DFX VooDoo... There is no substitute.
Later days,
vonbecker
von...@accessone.com
------------------------------
nil illegitimus sic carborudum
Don M. Bizub
How fast is your Pentium?
--
Don Biz
don...@ix.netcom.com
von...@accessone.com wrote in article <57dr12$r...@kanga.accessone.com>...
PM RYAN
von...@accessone.com wrote:
>
> I just downloaded the BETA 3DFX VooDoo Tomb Raider patch (from the
> www.tombraider.com) and its a totally new game!! It was playable but
> a little jerky without the patch, but silky smooth to play and
> beautiful to look at with the patch. There are a few inconsitencies
> in the mip-mapping (mentioned in the readme file) but they should be
> worked out prior to release of the production patch. Now if only the
> VooDoo version of Mech II would ship.
> 3DFX VooDoo... There is no substitute.
> Later days,
> vonbecker
> von...@accessone.com
> ------------------------------
> nil illegitimus sic carborudum
That's what I've been trying to tell people. The PC version ultimately
kicks the PSX version's hiney! The level of detail you can get with the
voodoo chip is amazing. It looks like the whole game is rendered! What
I don't understand is why the voodoo support had to come up in a patch.
I saw a version of it running at the E3 show in May, and it looked good
then. What was the hold up?
PM RYAN
--The sweetest revenge is to live a good life.
enzo
PM RYAN wrote:
> That's what I've been trying to tell people. The PC version ultimately
> kicks the PSX version's hiney! The level of detail you can get with the
> voodoo chip is amazing. It looks like the whole game is rendered! What
> I don't understand is why the voodoo support had to come up in a patch.
> I saw a version of it running at the E3 show in May, and it looked good
> then. What was the hold up?
Who cares? We got it in about a week, as promised, and it works very
well.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Neil Mouneimne | "We are not afraid of the Russians.
en...@outwest.com | We are afraid of their helicopters."
| - Muhajeddin soldier
---CS-Anime-Bab5-SegaAM-Mtn_Bikes-RPGs-Newton-Ducatis-Hk-Glock-Rally-
Jeremy
von...@accessone.com wrote:
>I just downloaded the BETA 3DFX VooDoo Tomb Raider patch (from the
>www.tombraider.com) and its a totally new game!! It was playable but
>a little jerky without the patch, but silky smooth to play and
>beautiful to look at with the patch. There are a few inconsitencies
>in the mip-mapping (mentioned in the readme file) but they should be
>worked out prior to release of the production patch. Now if only the
>VooDoo version of Mech II would ship.
>3DFX VooDoo... There is no substitute.
>Later days,
>vonbecker
>von...@accessone.com
>------------------------------
>nil illegitimus sic carborudum
>
I have to agree it looks and plays like a new game. But if you want
to really see the difference try going back to unaccelerated Tomb
Raider - yeuch !! Did I really play it when it looked that bad !!
Just rename the 3dfx version of the tomb.exe file to tomb3dfx.exe or
something similar and copy the tomb.exe file from your CD. Then you
can setup shortcuts to both and run them one after the other to really
see how 3dfx Voodoo version shines.
Sorry, must get back to Tomb Raider - I'm stuck on level 4.
Jeremy
BTW I'm running a P133, 32Mb EDO, ASUS Triton 1 (FX) motherboard.
Jeremy
WARNING: MY E-MAIL ADDRESS HAS BEEN ALTERED TO PREVENT UNWANTED MAIL!
REMOVE ASTERK FROM BEGINNING AND END OF ADDRESS TO REPLY BY E-MAIL.
ALX
In article <329b6857...@news.demon.co.uk>, *jez...@frimley.demon.co.uk*
(Jeremy) wrote:
> I have to agree it looks and plays like a new game. But if you
> want to really see the difference try going back to unaccelerated
> Tomb Raider - yeuch !! Did I really play it when it looked that
> bad !!
Yep, bought the game today. The detail is incredible. I can't
wait for the final, non-beta 3DFX patch.
The first few levels seem a bit bland, but the latter levels
become far more interesting. The large area with the Raptors and
T-Rex is a hoot. So is the following level, with the Indiana
Jones inspired boulder.
BTW, with the extreme smoothness (not a single drop in frame rate),
I just wish they would've added a bit more complexity.
->ALX<-
von...@accessone.com
"Don M. Bizub" <don...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>How fast is your Pentium?
Its a P-90 with 40 megs of RAM.
>--
>Don Biz
>don...@ix.netcom.com
>von...@accessone.com wrote in article <57dr12$r...@kanga.accessone.com>...
Rich Heimlich
*jez...@frimley.demon.co.uk* (Jeremy) wrote:
>I have to agree it looks and plays like a new game. But if you want
>to really see the difference try going back to unaccelerated Tomb
>Raider - yeuch !! Did I really play it when it looked that bad !!
Looks and plays like a new game? I've run both (I run a
Rendition-based card alongside a Righteous 3D for the best of both
worlds). I'd hardly say it plays like a new game or even looks like
one. Water looks improved. Several other items look "improved" but
it's hardly night and day. In fact, it actually took a little bit to
get used to as it appeared a bit out-of-focus at first and dull
(graphically speaking).
I've gone back and compared and I too would prefer the 3Dfx version
but I wouldn't go anyway near as far as some here are going.
*** RTH ***
Rich Heimlich
Publisher/Executive Editor
Escapade
(www.escapade.com)
Kaj Laaksonen
>Looks and plays like a new game? I've run both (I run a
>Rendition-based card alongside a Righteous 3D for the best of both
>worlds). I'd hardly say it plays like a new game or even looks like
>one. Water looks improved. Several other items look "improved" but
>it's hardly night and day. In fact, it actually took a little bit to
>get used to as it appeared a bit out-of-focus at first and dull
>(graphically speaking).
Matter of taste really, isn't it? I didn't like the original SVGA palette
at all. Too bright and not very convincing, while IMHO Voodoo TR palette is
just right. Very subdued colour, which are quite powerful coupled with the
lighting effects. Some might see it as dull, but for me the better palette
and smooth animation were big improvements. Running SVGA and Voodoo
versions on P100 is something I would call night and day.
-Kaizu-
John F. Lee
In article <329B1E...@erols.com>, PM RYAN <pmr...@erols.com> wrote:
>von...@accessone.com wrote:
>
>That's what I've been trying to tell people. The PC version ultimately
>kicks the PSX version's hiney!
I don't know. The accelerated version is much better, to be sure, but,
then, a 3D card costs roughly the same as a new playstation. It depends
on what floats your boat, I suppose.
>The level of detail you can get with the
>voodoo chip is amazing. It looks like the whole game is rendered! What
>I don't understand is why the voodoo support had to come up in a patch.
Because they wanted to get it out on time. It's tougher to integrate a
feature in the regular version than in a patch.
>I saw a version of it running at the E3 show in May, and it looked good
>then. What was the hold up?
Testing. Although, I've been told, they weren't very thorough in testing
ccontrol with a steering wheel. :)
--
John F. Lee / jfl...@u.washington.edu
The Game List - http://weber.u.washington.edu/d38/jfl666/games.html
Rich Heimlich
bea...@mindspring.com (beavis1) wrote:
>>I've gone back and compared and I too would prefer the 3Dfx version
>>but I wouldn't go anyway near as far as some here are going.
>
>You obviously have a fast CPU. On my P100 I couldn't even
>play it in SVGA - I was getting maybe 5-10 fps. But with the
>3dfx it is very smooth. So, obviously, for some, it *is*
>a night-and-day difference.
Excellent point. From that perspective I would have to agree with you.
Don't get me wrong. Even on a fast system the SVGA version is still a
step behind the speed of the 3Dfx but it was VERY playable to the
point where virtually no one said anything about it. Now it's just
smooooooth. <g>
BTW, working with both the R3D and Rendition under Windows 95/DOS is
working out great. I just don't have the R3D drivers under 95 for the
time being as Rendition excels under DirectX and I don't want that to
get goofed up. When Direct3D really takes hold I'll have to reconsider
that but for now, nice to have the options.
Rich Heimlich
ka...@pelit.fi (Kaj Laaksonen) wrote:
>Matter of taste really, isn't it? I didn't like the original SVGA palette
Agreed. It is a matter of taste on much of it but that's part of the
point. People need to be aware of that and not jump to such extremes
as saying, "night and day" when refering to only the look of the
graphics (not the speed issue).
>at all. Too bright and not very convincing, while IMHO Voodoo TR palette is
>just right. Very subdued colour, which are quite powerful coupled with the
>lighting effects. Some might see it as dull, but for me the better palette
Like I said, it took a moment to adjust. It appears dull after
spending 10 levels the other way around. SVGA also looks "sharper" as,
in ways, it is but that's not really complimentary to be so, if you
follow me.
>and smooth animation were big improvements. Running SVGA and Voodoo
>versions on P100 is something I would call night and day.
Performance. Different issue. No argument there what-so-ever.
Dene Wilby
Tomb Raider is totally amazing with the 3dfx but i'll just say one
thing....
How good will the eventual TR2 be? Will it blow our minds???
-Dene
Erick Cid
In article <329fd7ab...@news.erols.com>, ric...@erols.com says...
>I've gone back and compared and I too would prefer the 3Dfx version
>but I wouldn't go anyway near as far as some here are going.
>
Certainly it is a good increase in framerate and smooth gameplay. Graphically,
it is clearly better, but not necessarily as great a change as many may have
liked. Nonetheless I for one am more then satisfied.
Erick
--
----------------------------------------------------
Erick Cid
http://www.allgames.com/
http://www.interport.net/~elcid
----------------------------------------------------
ttammi
PM RYAN <pmr...@erols.com> wrote:
>ultimately kicks the PSX version's hiney! The level of detail you can
>get with the voodoo chip is amazing. It looks like the whole game is
>rendered!
Err, I think the game _is_ "rendered" in real time. ;-) Maybe you meant
to say "raytraced" or something like that.
ttammi
ric...@erols.com (Rich Heimlich) wrote:
>Looks and plays like a new game? I've run both (I run a
>Rendition-based card alongside a Righteous 3D for the best of both
>worlds). I'd hardly say it plays like a new game or even looks like
>one.
I guess the same can be said about VQuake and Verite-ICR2.
>I've gone back and compared and I too would prefer the 3Dfx version
>but I wouldn't go anyway near as far as some here are going.
Hmm, what do you think about VQuake then? Which shows better
improvement, Quake -> VQuake or Tomb Raider -> Tomb Raider Voodoo?
Or are both just minor improvements?
Jeremy
unk...@account.com (ALX) wrote:
>
>
>Yep, bought the game today. The detail is incredible. I can't
>wait for the final, non-beta 3DFX patch.
>
will be better optimised and so take less time than with the beta
version. I can't imagine them improving the graphics any !!
>The first few levels seem a bit bland, but the latter levels
>become far more interesting. The large area with the Raptors and
>T-Rex is a hoot. So is the following level, with the Indiana
>Jones inspired boulder.
Ditto. I just keep playing the area with the T-Rex over and over to
see if I can escape him (or is it her) by stealth. Actually a neat
trick is to hide in the cave below the broken bridge and take pot
shots at the T-Rex as it stomps by :)
Yeah the boulder level is neat also, but I have noticed something odd.
When I've opened the 3 doors and entered the large hall with the
artifact in it, Lara points her weapons at the inanimate skeletons on
one side of the room as if they are some kind of enemy. They don't
make any move at all - what's going on ?
>
>BTW, with the extreme smoothness (not a single drop in frame rate),
>I just wish they would've added a bit more complexity.
>
>->ALX<-
>
Yes, looks as though it could've taken more complexity. Then again
maybe lower end pentiums would have run out of steam trying to
transform a more detailed world.
Gerald Leung
Jeremy <*jez...@frimley.demon.co.uk*> wrote:
>one side of the room as if they are some kind of enemy. They don't
>make any move at all - what's going on ?
Oops.. deleted one too many lines...
Policy my friends and I have is to shoot first, ask questions later,
particularly in new rooms.
Dunno what that mummy thing is, but if you move around, you'll see that
it's head follows you. If Lara can point her gun at something, it can
be shot at.
Gerald Leung Phase IV
ger...@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
Kaj Laaksonen
ttammi <tta...@spider.compart.fi> wrote in article
<VA.0000014...@me.compart.fi>...
>
> Hmm, what do you think about VQuake then? Which shows better
> improvement, Quake -> VQuake or Tomb Raider -> Tomb Raider Voodoo?
> Or are both just minor improvements?
I've played both and IMHO Tomb Raider Voodoo shows bigger improvement.
Notice though that they are both patched to 3D and they both could use even
more 3D features. Alpha blending pops into mind first. Tomb Raider has
those nasty looking waves on water and some 2D bitmaps which are kinda out
of place. VQuake doesn't use any transparency or fogging effects either.
I'm sure we will see much much better games using Voodoo and Verite when
games are being designed from the scratch with these cards in mind.
-Kaizu-
Smoke Crack and Worship Satan
In article <329fd7ab...@news.erols.com>, ric...@erols.com (Rich Heimlich)
wrote:
>
> *jez...@frimley.demon.co.uk* (Jeremy) wrote:
>
> >I have to agree it looks and plays like a new game. But if you want
> >to really see the difference try going back to unaccelerated Tomb
> >Raider - yeuch !! Did I really play it when it looked that bad !!
>
> Rendition-based card alongside a Righteous 3D for the best of both
> worlds). I'd hardly say it plays like a new game or even looks like
> it's hardly night and day. In fact, it actually took a little bit to
> get used to as it appeared a bit out-of-focus at first and dull
> (graphically speaking).
>
Are you on DOPE? Those are 256 color textures versus 16-bit textures.
It's SO MUCH better it's not even funny. They are literally worlds
apart.
As for speed, unless you have a Pentium Pro, you're going to see about 5-15
fps in 640x480 versus a consistent 30+ on a 3dfx card. I'd say a 100%
performance improvement (at worst! Possibly 200%-300% in some cases!)
is easily worth it, not to mention the bilinear filtering, additional
colors, etc.
Quake, with its 256 color textures, looks merely better on a Rendition
card. Tomb Raider is like a whole different game on a 3dfx!
> I've gone back and compared and I too would prefer the 3Dfx version
> but I wouldn't go anyway near as far as some here are going.
>
I would-- it's a killer app. It was designed around 16-bit color from
the start, because of its Saturn/PSX/PC heritage, and damn does that
make a huge difference! I suggest you try playing Lara's home in the
old TOMB.EXE and then try it again with the 3dfx TOMB.EXE.
jcapr...@aol.com
>at all. Too bright and not very convincing, while IMHO Voodoo TR palette
is
>just right. Very subdued colour, which are quite powerful coupled with
the
>lighting effects. Some might see it as dull, but for me the better
palette
I'm pretty sure that the reson why the pallette seems more subdued is
because of the bi-linear filtering which blends adjoining colors so they
do not pixellate when you move close to them. This blending kind of makes
two colors look "muddy" and less crisp than if they were not blended. By
the way, I have a p200 and so does a friend of mine and we both think the
voodoo version blows the others away. Does anyone with this game notice
that when they go back and play older levels that there is often more
wolves in some areas in the voodoo version? If there is I think it may be
because the voodoo can actually handle all of them without any slowup.
I've had four of them circling me-smooth as silk! This is great!
-J.Capra
Smoke Crack and Worship Satan
In article <VA.0000014...@me.compart.fi>, ttammi <tta...@spider.compart.f
>
> ric...@erols.com (Rich Heimlich) wrote:
>
> >Looks and plays like a new game? I've run both (I run a
> >Rendition-based card alongside a Righteous 3D for the best of both
> >worlds). I'd hardly say it plays like a new game or even looks like
> >one.
>
>
ICR2 ran pretty damn fast at 640x480 on my P5-133 with all textures on except road! That is
not the mark of a processor intensive game. And Verite CANNOT push Quake at 640x480 at 30fps
like 3dfx Tomb Raider is.
> >I've gone back and compared and I too would prefer the 3Dfx version
> >but I wouldn't go anyway near as far as some here are going.
>
> Hmm, what do you think about VQuake then? Which shows better
> improvement, Quake -> VQuake or Tomb Raider -> Tomb Raider Voodoo?
> Or are both just minor improvements?
>
Quake -> VQuake = solid improvement.
TR -> TR Voodoo = INCREDIBLE, BLOW THE DOORS OFF improvement. Mainly due to 16-bit textures
that are totally lacking in Quake. Quake is a 256 color game, period.
Benedict Walmisley
unk...@account.com (ALX) wrote:
>Yep, bought the game today. The detail is incredible. I can't
>wait for the final, non-beta 3DFX patch.
>The first few levels seem a bit bland, but the latter levels
>become far more interesting. The large area with the Raptors and
>T-Rex is a hoot
I was killing myself when I was being pursued down that bloody valley
with a TRex on my heels - incredible. There are a few glitches - the
'2d' sprite objects arent filtered and the water problem. What
surprised the hell out of me was the way you can see into the water
but what you see is distorted.
> So is the following level, with the Indiana
>Jones inspired boulder.
Its nice to have nicely animated 'real' creatures as enemies and not
just the unending supply of Demons and stuff.
>BTW, with the extreme smoothness (not a single drop in frame rate),
>I just wish they would've added a bit more complexity.
Yes, I agree entirely. Although they have to keep the detail low
enough so that its playable on non accelerated machines.
OTOH The critters are probally taking up 50% of the polygons within an
area.
--
Benedict Walmisley - Reality is Insanity
Unsolicited spam email will be proofread at $100 per hour, min charge $100
Email: BWalm...@wolf.demon.co.uk
Steve Minor
Smoke Crack and Worship Satan <nom...@nospammers.com> wrote in article
<57j0fl$j...@nexp.crl.com>...
> In article <329fd7ab...@news.erols.com>, ric...@erols.com (Rich
Heimlich)
> wrote:
> >
> > *jez...@frimley.demon.co.uk* (Jeremy) wrote:
> >
> > >I have to agree it looks and plays like a new game. But if you want
> > >to really see the difference try going back to unaccelerated Tomb
> > >Raider - yeuch !! Did I really play it when it looked that bad !!
> >
> > Looks and plays like a new game? I've run both (I run a
> > Rendition-based card alongside a Righteous 3D for the best of both
> > worlds). I'd hardly say it plays like a new game or even looks like
> > one. Water looks improved. Several other items look "improved" but
> > it's hardly night and day. In fact, it actually took a little bit to
> > get used to as it appeared a bit out-of-focus at first and dull
> > (graphically speaking).
> >
>
> Are you on DOPE? Those are 256 color textures versus 16-bit textures.
> It's SO MUCH better it's not even funny. They are literally worlds
> apart.
>
That is for sure. It is worlds better--no question about it.
Let's look at the facts. On my P166:
Millenium Vs 3Dfx
-------------- ----------------------
10-15fps 30fps+
256 color 65000 colors
pixellated bilinear filtering, etc. (ie: no pixellation)
And the Millenium is a good 2D board too! The bottom line is that this
"patch" gives a bigger boost then most sequels do! You can't ask for much
more than that! If this isn't a "night and day" improvement, then WHAT IS?
Think about it.
Some people have agendas, keep that in mind. For those people, if they
have choosen to support brand "X", they'll never say anything positive
about brand "Y". The good thing is that the comments these people make are
so obviously out of touch that they are easy to dismiss--as you noticed.
P.S.: I look forward to the Rendition version to come out. First, I'm sure
it will be great too! Second, for the 3Dfx bashers out there, it may keep
them occupied. Of course, if they own a Mystique they are still out of
luck. :)
Namae
On 28 Nov 1996 03:21:25 GMT, nom...@nospammers.com (Smoke Crack and
Worship Satan) wrote:
>As for speed, unless you have a Pentium Pro, you're going to see about 5-15
>fps in 640x480 versus a consistent 30+ on a 3dfx card. I'd say a 100%
>performance improvement (at worst! Possibly 200%-300% in some cases!)
>is easily worth it, not to mention the bilinear filtering, additional
>colors, etc.
Only problem is that the sprites are not filtered. I wonder if Eidos
can fix that in their final patch. And the small rectangles on water
surface...they got to remove those.
Skip Ledford
Just out of curiosity, how much does the playstation TR cost? The PC Tomb
Raider I saw cost $40, and I sure don't remember seeing *any* of the newer
generation consoles selling games for $40! Sure you can get a console for
the cost of a 3D card, but then look at how much you more you pay for the
games.
John F. Lee <jfl...@u.washington.edu> wrote in article
<57h5pe$r...@nntp1.u.washington.edu>...
Jeremy
ric...@erols.com (Rich Heimlich) wrote:
>*jez...@frimley.demon.co.uk* (Jeremy) wrote:
>
>>I have to agree it looks and plays like a new game. But if you want
>>to really see the difference try going back to unaccelerated Tomb
>>Raider - yeuch !! Did I really play it when it looked that bad !!
>
>Looks and plays like a new game? I've run both (I run a
>Rendition-based card alongside a Righteous 3D for the best of both
>worlds). I'd hardly say it plays like a new game or even looks like
>one. Water looks improved. Several other items look "improved" but
>it's hardly night and day. In fact, it actually took a little bit to
>get used to as it appeared a bit out-of-focus at first and dull
>(graphically speaking).
>
Well, I stand by my original comments. The difference for me was a
large increase in frame rate, a lack of pixellisation and a beautiful
high colour palette. That *is* a huge difference and one which could
not even be achieved by upgrading my P133 to a PPro 200 (at a very
substantial cost).
>I've gone back and compared and I too would prefer the 3Dfx version
>but I wouldn't go anyway near as far as some here are going.
>
>
>*** RTH ***
>Rich Heimlich
>Publisher/Executive Editor
>Escapade
>(www.escapade.com)
You're welcome to your opinions, but I stand by mine.
Jeremy
Jeremy
ric...@erols.com (Rich Heimlich) wrote:
>*jez...@frimley.demon.co.uk* (Jeremy) wrote:
>
>>I have to agree it looks and plays like a new game. But if you want
>>to really see the difference try going back to unaccelerated Tomb
>>Raider - yeuch !! Did I really play it when it looked that bad !!
>
>Looks and plays like a new game? I've run both (I run a
>Rendition-based card alongside a Righteous 3D for the best of both
>worlds). I'd hardly say it plays like a new game or even looks like
>one. Water looks improved. Several other items look "improved" but
>it's hardly night and day. In fact, it actually took a little bit to
>get used to as it appeared a bit out-of-focus at first and dull
>(graphically speaking).
>
>I've gone back and compared and I too would prefer the 3Dfx version
>but I wouldn't go anyway near as far as some here are going.
>
>
>*** RTH ***
>Rich Heimlich
>Publisher/Executive Editor
>Escapade
>(www.escapade.com)
Of course I don't mean it's a different game (it wouldn't be Tomb
Raider otherwise ;-)
For me the added features of the 3dfx version make it a much better
game not just slighty better. The main factors improved over
non-accelerated version are :
* Frame rate (a huge leap - sorry can't give figures but much faster
on 3dfx)
* High colour depth - check the shading on non-accelerated vs 3dfx
* Image clarity - very pixellated on non-accelerated version vs
clarity even for distant objects on 3dfx version
Of course this is just IMHO, but others seem to agree also. I guess
some people are much harder to impress (no offence meant).
The fact is that no single hardware upgrade has made such a huge
improvement to games on my system over the years than the OR3D for
less than 200 uk pounds. I have actually put off buying a PPro 200 now
as I won't need one any more (and saved myself a lot of money).
ALX
In article <01bbdd59$c7c19100$7d79aac7@hal9000>, "Skip Ledford"
<skip...@america.net> wrote:
> Just out of curiosity, how much does the playstation TR cost? The
> PC Tomb Raider I saw cost $40, and I sure don't remember seeing
> *any* of the newer generation consoles selling games for $40!
I haven't been in the console market as of late, but one of the
huge PS titles, Tekken2, did retail for under $40 upon its debut
(Best Buy and Target - something in the range of $36-$38).
->ALX<-
Rich Heimlich
>> Looks and plays like a new game? I've run both (I run a
>> Rendition-based card alongside a Righteous 3D for the best of both
>> worlds). I'd hardly say it plays like a new game or even looks like
>> one. Water looks improved. Several other items look "improved" but
>> it's hardly night and day. In fact, it actually took a little bit to
>> get used to as it appeared a bit out-of-focus at first and dull
>> (graphically speaking).
>>
>Are you on DOPE? Those are 256 color textures versus 16-bit textures.
>It's SO MUCH better it's not even funny. They are literally worlds
>apart.
You're talking about technical differences. I would guarantee that if
you asked unbiased participants to look at both and put a percentage
increase of the benefits of the 3Dfx version over the other version
that the difference would be likely found to average out around .....
40%. That's not even close to "worlds apart."
>As for speed, unless you have a Pentium Pro, you're going to see about 5-15
I'm not talking about speed improvements. I'm talking about cosmetic
improvement.
>Quake, with its 256 color textures, looks merely better on a Rendition
>card. Tomb Raider is like a whole different game on a 3dfx!
Sorry. Can't agree with you. Nothing wrong with that but if you want
to make an issue of it, so be it.
>make a huge difference! I suggest you try playing Lara's home in the
>old TOMB.EXE and then try it again with the 3dfx TOMB.EXE.
Not that people play most of the game there but sure, I'll give that a
look too.
*** RTH ***
Rich Heimlich
Publisher/Executive Editor
Escapade
Rich Heimlich
"Steve Minor" <steve...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>That is for sure. It is worlds better--no question about it.
>
>Let's look at the facts. On my P166:
Your facts included speed improvements. I'm not talking about speed
improvement at all. That's obvious and goes without saying. No
argument there.
>Some people have agendas, keep that in mind. For those people, if they
>have choosen to support brand "X", they'll never say anything positive
>about brand "Y". The good thing is that the comments these people make are
>so obviously out of touch that they are easy to dismiss--as you noticed.
Excuse me? Apparently you didn't see my post. I own (in addition to
virtually any PC hardware on the market due to my vocation) a
Righteous 3D and several Rendition cards. I have no ulterior motive to
make such comments. Whatever turns out to be best I have the option of
using so it doesn't matter to me. While I will easily say that the
3Dfx version of Tomb Raider is superior to the non-3D version, I would
say that it's a very nice improvement. Cosmetically I feel that it's a
nice improvement but to suggest that it's like PLAYING A DIFFERENT
GAME?! Ludicrous. That's stretching the phrase to the breaking point.
Rich Heimlich
*jez...@frimley.demon.co.uk* (Jeremy) wrote:
>Of course I don't mean it's a different game (it wouldn't be Tomb
>Raider otherwise ;-)
<grin> That's part of what I'm trying to say. Some people throw heavy
phrasing around like it's nothing without realizing how much weight
others, who don't have first-hand experience, put behind them.
>* Frame rate (a huge leap - sorry can't give figures but much faster
>on 3dfx)
Agreed.
>* High colour depth - check the shading on non-accelerated vs 3dfx
Agreed.
>* Image clarity - very pixellated on non-accelerated version vs
>clarity even for distant objects on 3dfx version
Basically agreed.
I also said that there was the current situation of the bugs in the
current version to deal with (like the video noise at virtually every
vertical seam of the walls). I also don't really care much to argue
about what informed buyers see. I put most of my emphasis on the
uninformed buyer. If you took a screen shot of both versions and
showed one (doesn't matter) to him on day one and the other to him on
day two, virtually no one would refer to one over the other as "like
night and day." Most wouldn't even know you changed shots. That's my
point. Hey, without looking, what version was used for the box shots?
People raved about them so which one was it?
>Of course this is just IMHO, but others seem to agree also. I guess
>some people are much harder to impress (no offence meant).
None taken. Remember that I always think it terms of average
consumers, not people who know better. Heck, I upgrade my system all
the time to get another 1% performance boost, etc. But I also know
this isn't reflective of the norm. Most consumers aren't very picky.
Really, HONESTLY, think about what I said about the screenshots.
Picture showing them to say, an uninformed neighbor and then tell me
that you honestly believe that he or she would say, "WOW, I can't
believe this one looks so much better." That's the kind of question
I'm getting from TYPICAL consumers every day. They want to know that
if they spend $300 on a 3Dfx (or anything) how OBVIOUS the difference
is going to be for them. If you say "night and day" they take that
LITERALLY and then you're setting them up for disappointment and thus,
you're (not you per say but 3Dfx fans) working against your own desire
to see this think go over like gang-busters.
Rich Heimlich
jcapr...@aol.com wrote:
>I'm pretty sure that the reson why the pallette seems more subdued is
>because of the bi-linear filtering which blends adjoining colors so they
>do not pixellate when you move close to them. This blending kind of makes
>two colors look "muddy" and less crisp than if they were not blended. By
That's exactly what I was attempting to get across. What's most
immediately obvious to the casual observer is that suddenly, things
appear less crisp. Look at the Save Game book for example. It
definitely looks "foggy" compared to the non-3D version. Doesn't
matter if one is better or not. That's not the issue here.
>wolves in some areas in the voodoo version? If there is I think it may be
>because the voodoo can actually handle all of them without any slowup.
>I've had four of them circling me-smooth as silk! This is great!
The performance improvement should cause no argument with anyone. It's
blantantly obvious in virtually all cases.
Keith Young
Rich Heimlich <ric...@erols.com> wrote in article
<32a88102...@news.erols.com>...
>
> I also said that there was the current situation of the bugs in the
> current version to deal with (like the video noise at virtually every
> vertical seam of the walls). I also don't really care much to argue
No argument here, but I think the seams are in both versions...
> about what informed buyers see. I put most of my emphasis on the
> uninformed buyer. If you took a screen shot of both versions and
> showed one (doesn't matter) to him on day one and the other to him on
> day two, virtually no one would refer to one over the other as "like
> night and day." Most wouldn't even know you changed shots. That's my
> point. Hey, without looking, what version was used for the box shots?
> People raved about them so which one was it?
>
> >Of course this is just IMHO, but others seem to agree also. I guess
> >some people are much harder to impress (no offence meant).
>
> None taken. Remember that I always think it terms of average
> consumers, not people who know better. Heck, I upgrade my system all
> the time to get another 1% performance boost, etc. But I also know
<sigh>, sad, isn't it? :)
> this isn't reflective of the norm. Most consumers aren't very picky.
> Really, HONESTLY, think about what I said about the screenshots.
> Picture showing them to say, an uninformed neighbor and then tell me
> that you honestly believe that he or she would say, "WOW, I can't
> believe this one looks so much better." That's the kind of question
> I'm getting from TYPICAL consumers every day. They want to know that
> if they spend $300 on a 3Dfx (or anything) how OBVIOUS the difference
> is going to be for them. If you say "night and day" they take that
> LITERALLY and then you're setting them up for disappointment and thus,
> you're (not you per say but 3Dfx fans) working against your own desire
> to see this think go over like gang-busters.
>
[sorry to leave so much quoted material in, but I couldn't decide what to
trim without changing the context...]
Rich, I agree with your example as stated... I doubt most people would
remember the difference from the previous day, looking at the new
'screen-shot'. But when people are inquiring about 'what spending $300
will do for them' (ok, I re-worded you a bit there <g>), then screen-shots
don't tell the whole picture (pun intended).
I think you might agree that if the example was changed from screen-shots
to having them sit down and play the game, there would be a much more
obvious difference.
Of course the user's current CPU would have a huge bearing on the percieved
difference... the game runs acceptably smooth (?) on high end systems
non-accelerated, but it might well be a 'night and day' experiance for
someone with a P90 (smooth 640x480 with 16bit bi-linear filtered graphics
vs smooth 320x200 with big 256 color pixels)... and that's relevent to the
question.
If someone is pretty heavy into this type of game (3D games in general),
had a P90/P100 and was trying to decide whether to spend $300 on a 3D card
vs ~$550 on a 200mhz CPU (and possibly another $~150-200 for a new mboard
to support it), then the added performance issue becomes that much more
relevent.
[for the record, I'd normally suggest going with the CPU for the 'overall'
(ie. not just 3D games) performance boost, but with the MMX chips around
the corner, and assuming a strong 3D game bias, upgrading your 3D might be
a good option to extend the life of your '3D game machine' until new
(and/or cheaper) CPUs come out]
I guess my point is that people need to play/experiance it for themselves
(if possible), because the performance boost may be just as important, if
not more-so, than the graphics boost.
I don't think I'm disagreeing with you much here (?)... I'm just trying to
highlight the performance issue relative to purchasing decisions.
----
Keith
Keith Young
Keith Young <kyo...@cstone.net> wrote in article
<01bbddce$d6bf8de0$b266c5cd@kosh>...
>
> [a bunch of stuff about performance issues with non-accelerated Tomb
Raider vs the > 3Dfx version in a reply to Rich H...]
>
Rich,
I see from your other posts in this thread that you were mainly addressing
the 'night and day' term being applied to the graphic differences (which of
course is somewhat subjective, and is always more promenant (sp) with
side-by-side comparisons, but...) and that the performance issue 'goes
without saying'...
So I guess my previous post was off-base except in that I felt it ought not
'go without saying' <g>.
Cheers,
----
Keith
Terrence Yee
Rich Heimlich wrote:
<SNIP>
> If you took a screen shot of both versions and
> showed one (doesn't matter) to him on day one and the other to him on
> day two, virtually no one would refer to one over the other as "like
> night and day." Most wouldn't even know you changed shots. That's my
> point. Hey, without looking, what version was used for the box shots?
> People raved about them so which one was it?
Hmm well they might say the same thing about Vquake and Quake (I liked
the Vquake pics myself) but would they (average consumers per you) say
the same when they saw the game in action? Still pics are one thing,
but a moving game is quite a different story, as Vquake owners will
surely testify to.
> HONESTLY, think about what I said about the screenshots.
> Picture showing them to say, an uninformed neighbor and then tell me
> that you honestly believe that he or she would say, "WOW, I can't
> believe this one looks so much better." That's the kind of question
> I'm getting from TYPICAL consumers every day. They want to know that
> if they spend $300 on a 3Dfx (or anything) how OBVIOUS the difference
> is going to be for them. If you say "night and day" they take that
> LITERALLY and then you're setting them up for disappointment and thus,
> you're (not you per say but 3Dfx fans) working against your own desire
> to see this think go over like gang-busters.
Again, games aren't played from stills, unless you have a real slow PC.
:)
Ty
Al Crawford
And lo, ric...@erols.com (Rich Heimlich) spake unto the masses saying:
>
> You're talking about technical differences. I would guarantee that if
> you asked unbiased participants to look at both and put a percentage
> increase of the benefits of the 3Dfx version over the other version
> that the difference would be likely found to average out around .....
> 40%. That's not even close to "worlds apart."
Guarantee, Rich? While you're about it, can we perhaps have error bars on
that percentage improvement? After all, if you think you can estimate this
sort of thing numerically, we should at least be given some idea of the
accuracy of your measurement. Details of your unbiased participants, what
age groups, what systems, etC? Oh, and what's the precise numeric
definition of "worlds apart"? 73.4%, +-0.75%?
The point I'm trying to make here is that when you're talking about
something like "how much a game is improved by being accelerated", claiming
to know how much people will claim it's improved, and attaching a *number*
to that is, oh, I dunno, either misguided, clueless or arrogant in the
extreme.
"Improvement" is a completely subjective thing. You *can't* have an
unbiased observer. What criteria do you think these people will be
measuring? Frame rate? I've seen everything from 8fps to 40fps claimed as
the "base level" for smooth. So, depending on the individual's perception
of smooth, any increase in that department can vary drastically. Then
there's the number of colours - how many people will notice 16-bit vs 8-bit
colour without having it pointed out? How many will just say that the
picture "looks smoother"? How many will pick up on clipping anomalies, how
many will demand that the character wear more clothes and completely ignore
the technical aspects, how many will X, how many will Y?
If you personally don't think it's the difference between night and day,
fine. That's roughly my view of it too - greatly improved, but it's a
better-looking game, not a new game. To extend this to "guarantee" tha
unbiased observers will claim an average improvement of 40% though, that's
a pretty huge leap, and one that you can't back up in any way. At the end
of the day, you've got your own opinion and, perhaps in your case, a *feel*
for what the public'll think. To extend that to an absolute guarantee with
numeric bounds though, that's nuts.
Al
--
Al Crawford - aw...@access.digex.net
http://www.access.digex.net/~awrc
"Art/Empire/Industry"
Namae
On Fri, 29 Nov 1996 06:21:42 GMT, ric...@erols.com (Rich Heimlich)
wrote:
>"Steve Minor" <steve...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>>That is for sure. It is worlds better--no question about it.
>>
>>Let's look at the facts. On my P166:
>
>Your facts included speed improvements. I'm not talking about speed
>improvement at all. That's obvious and goes without saying. No
>argument there.
Now I got it. You see Rich, most of us were playing TombRaider at
~10fps before the 3DFX patch came out. You say it goes without
saying, but this is one of the significant improvement.
Rich Heimlich
tt...@columbia.edu (Namae) wrote:
>>Your facts included speed improvements. I'm not talking about speed
>>improvement at all. That's obvious and goes without saying. No
>>argument there.
>
>Now I got it. You see Rich, most of us were playing TombRaider at
>~10fps before the 3DFX patch came out. You say it goes without
>saying, but this is one of the significant improvement.
As I said, agreed. It seems to be faster on EVERY system. I think we
all expect that, including the average consumer. What's harder to know
is now "obvious" (very variable word) the difference in look is.
Rich Heimlich
aw...@access5.digex.net (Al Crawford) wrote:
>Guarantee, Rich? While you're about it, can we perhaps have error bars on
Yes. My QA company spends an inordinate amount of time hanging out in
malls with clipboards in hand harrassing unsuspecting consumers (how's
that for honesty? <g>). I can "guarantee" it because the rough
percentage I picked is much higher than I know the responses would be.
>The point I'm trying to make here is that when you're talking about
>something like "how much a game is improved by being accelerated", claiming
>to know how much people will claim it's improved, and attaching a *number*
>to that is, oh, I dunno, either misguided, clueless or arrogant in the
>extreme.
I would call it informed. We just disagree on that. I don't think I
have a clue as to where exactly that number would end up. We're
talking hypothetical situations here. I am confident that the number
would not end up in any realm that anyone else would define as "worlds
apart." That's my point.
>"Improvement" is a completely subjective thing. You *can't* have an
>unbiased observer. What criteria do you think these people will be
>measuring? Frame rate? I've seen everything from 8fps to 40fps claimed as
No. Nothing so technical as frame rate. They can look at game A and
then game B running on the same system. Then, they'd write down a
number representing their interpretation of the improvement in item B
over item A.
>there's the number of colours - how many people will notice 16-bit vs 8-bit
>colour without having it pointed out? How many will just say that the
EXACTLY! Now you're catching on to my point. I KNOW, from lots of time
working with average consumers, that 95% of them wouldn't even notice.
>If you personally don't think it's the difference between night and day,
>fine. That's roughly my view of it too - greatly improved, but it's a
>better-looking game, not a new game.
We agree there. I went further by saying that we're in the vast
majority.
>unbiased observers will claim an average improvement of 40% though, that's
I actually said under 40% and picked that number because it was much
higher than what I'm certain the number would actually end up at.
Follow me for a second. What I "guaranteed" is obvious. It's like
saying, "I can guarantee that most people would say they like ice
cream."
>for what the public'll think. To extend that to an absolute guarantee with
>numeric bounds though, that's nuts.
I stand by it. So I'm nuts. <g>
Rich Heimlich
f...@nilenet.com (SG) wrote:
>Is there any way to save a screenshot?
>
>If so could someone do a screenshot at normal SVGA and then the same
>shot enhanced with the Voodoo??
Someone just posted a set here the other day.
Rich Heimlich
"Keith Young" <kyo...@cstone.net> wrote:
>No argument here, but I think the seams are in both versions...
I just looked. I don't see them here in the SVGA version. Maybe
they're just more obvious in the current 3Dfx beta.
>> consumers, not people who know better. Heck, I upgrade my system all
>> the time to get another 1% performance boost, etc. But I also know
>
><sigh>, sad, isn't it? :)
And likely to be expensive too. <g>
>Rich, I agree with your example as stated... I doubt most people would
>remember the difference from the previous day, looking at the new
>'screen-shot'. But when people are inquiring about 'what spending $300
>will do for them' (ok, I re-worded you a bit there <g>), then screen-shots
>don't tell the whole picture (pun intended).
Okay. I'd have to agree with that but speed is basic and can be
explained easily. I also share that fact with those who e-mail us all
the questions. It's easy to say, "In most cases the 3D-enhanced
version allows for everything to be turned on and still play at full
speed on even average systems." Consumers get this. Explaining the
graphical difference is the problem. Using phrases like, "night and
day," "worlds apart," etc., is a bad idea from the start.
>I think you might agree that if the example was changed from screen-shots
>to having them sit down and play the game, there would be a much more
>obvious difference.
Yes, because it would include performance too. As I said, I'm taking
NO issue with that what-so-ever. I just took issue with people using
the above phrases to describe the visual improvement.
>If someone is pretty heavy into this type of game (3D games in general),
>had a P90/P100 and was trying to decide whether to spend $300 on a 3D card
>vs ~$550 on a 200mhz CPU (and possibly another $~150-200 for a new mboard
>to support it), then the added performance issue becomes that much more
>relevent.
The bigger question is in how many people are likely to spend $300 on
a video upgrade card when they apparently didn't spend the same money
on their core system. I am left to wonder how many 3Dfx owners have
"basic" systems. I suspect it's a non-representively low number.
>I guess my point is that people need to play/experiance it for themselves
>(if possible), because the performance boost may be just as important, if
>not more-so, than the graphics boost.
Agreed.
>I don't think I'm disagreeing with you much here (?)... I'm just trying to
>highlight the performance issue relative to purchasing decisions.
Then we're not disagreeing at all. <g>
Rich Heimlich
"Keith Young" <kyo...@cstone.net> wrote:
>So I guess my previous post was off-base except in that I felt it ought not
>'go without saying' <g>.
I suspect I could have avoided some confusion by "saying" it. <g>
Rich Heimlich
Terrence Yee <ty...@aloha.com> wrote:
>Hmm well they might say the same thing about Vquake and Quake (I liked
Makes for an interesting discussion doesn't it?
>the Vquake pics myself) but would they (average consumers per you) say
>the same when they saw the game in action? Still pics are one thing,
>but a moving game is quite a different story, as Vquake owners will
>surely testify to.
Good example. Most people we showed this to (I don't have my test
notes in front of me as I'm home for the holiday, but I believe we had
more than 40 people look at Quake versus VQuake for impact testing for
our cover story) didn't initially notice the difference AT ALL. Then,
after playing both, virtually everyone noted that they preferred the
VQuake version. The most accurate phrase we saw on the reports used
the phrase, "subliminal difference." I'd say that sums it up fairly
well. You wouldn't want to play the Quake version anymore but VQuake
couldn't be fairly described, by the masses, as "night and day,"
"worlds apart" or "like playing a whole new game" over the SVGA
version.
Don M. Bizub
> a video upgrade card when they apparently didn't spend the same money
> on their core system. I am left to wonder how many 3Dfx owners have
> "basic" systems. I suspect it's a non-representively low number.
Exactly. For a lot of us people with p90s, adding a 3DFX also means adding
a 2D card, thus making the total expenditure compete with the cost of a
chip upgrade.
Those that have maxed out there system think nothing of another $300.
Those of us who haven't must weigh the cost of one upgrade vs. another.
Do I get a bigger hard drive this month, more memory next month, upgrade
the video next, then buy a MMX chip? What about a tape backup system, a
zip/jaz drive or a larger monitor?
Most of us face multiple upgrade decisions, there is nothing wrong with
debating which ones are worth the money and which ones are not.
Don Biz
Terrence Yee
Rich Heimlich wrote:
>
> Cosmetically I feel that it's a
> nice improvement but to suggest that it's like PLAYING A DIFFERENT
> GAME?! Ludicrous. That's stretching the phrase to the breaking point.
What do you think of Vquake vs Quake?
Ty
Smoke Crack and Worship Satan
In article <32a12546...@news.erols.com>, ric...@erols.com (Rich Heimlich)
wrote:
>
>
> >>Your facts included speed improvements. I'm not talking about speed
> >>improvement at all. That's obvious and goes without saying. No
> >>argument there.
> >
> >Now I got it. You see Rich, most of us were playing TombRaider at
> >~10fps before the 3DFX patch came out. You say it goes without
> >saying, but this is one of the significant improvement.
>
> As I said, agreed. It seems to be faster on EVERY system. I think we
> all expect that, including the average consumer. What's harder to know
> is now "obvious" (very variable word) the difference in look is.
>
>
Well, there's a heck of a lot more "3DFX TOMB RAIDER IS INCREDIBLE!!!" posts in this
newsgroup than there were "VQUAKE IS INCREDIBLE!!!" posts. So I think it's pretty obvious...
Remember that VQUAKE is limited to 256 colors and therefore looks quite similar in 16-bit or
256 color modes, a huge achilles heel IMO.
Grant McKenzie
>
>Good example. Most people we showed this to (I don't have my test
>notes in front of me as I'm home for the holiday, but I believe we had
>more than 40 people look at Quake versus VQuake for impact testing for
>our cover story) didn't initially notice the difference AT ALL. Then,
>after playing both, virtually everyone noted that they preferred the
>VQuake version.
A big difference in Quake vs vQuake for me, Rich, was that before I
installed the Reactor 3D, I couldn't play Quake in SVGA. So, simply because
I had a lousy, generic videocard before, I really noticed a huge difference
in vQuake. Now that I've seen unaccelerated Quake running in SVGA on a
Mystique, the difference doesn't seem to be as great as I initially
thought.
Cheers, Grant
Andrew Ariens
On 29 Nov 1996 19:47:47 GMT, "Don M. Bizub" <don...@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
>Exactly. For a lot of us people with p90s, adding a 3DFX also means adding
>a 2D card
Um, are there a lot of "you people" out there with p90s that don't
have 2D cards? How the hell do you get a screen displayed then?!
Sheez.
--
Andrew Ariens
ari...@aiinc.com
http://www.trailerpark.com/phase1/ariens/index.html
Robert Crim
ari...@aiinc.com (Andrew Ariens) wrote:
Yeah, I'm a little sick of seeing this one myself. If you have such a
crappy 2d card in your computer now, then you must not have cared
about the slower performance from your computer that you've been
getting before the 3d cards.That is probably why you're content with
the slower performance of the verite card for 3d. Most game lovers
already had a good 2d card before the 3d cards because they cared
about things like smoothness and frame rate. These are the people that
are now getting the Righteous 3d because they know that card has
better performance then the Verite cards. I would be willing to bet
that 90 percent of people that are getting the voodoo cards already
have a fast 2d card. We don't need to run out and buy new a one. If I
were used to using a crappy 2d card and then bought the verite cards,
of course I'd be impressed. If you needed a new 2d card because the
one you were using sucked, and you wanted a good 3d card then I'm sure
you'll be very happy with the Verite. But for people who feel it's
worth it to them to pay a little extra and get the best performance
they can, are interested in the voodoo cards, and they already have a
good 2d card! Assuming you have a good 2d card and you want great 3d
performance, why would you want to get a verite card? You'd take a
(big) drop in regular vga performance and have less speed on 3d
acceleration the voodoo owners. To me both of those examples are worth
150.00.
Don M. Bizub
Andrew Ariens <ari...@aiinc.com> wrote in article
> Um, are there a lot of "you people" out there with p90s that don't
> have 2D cards? How the hell do you get a screen displayed then?!
> Sheez.
Not all of us rushed out to buy et6000 cards.
:)
Don Biz
Led Mirage
In article <32a88102...@news.erols.com>,
Rich Heimlich <ric...@erols.com> wrote:
>
>I also said that there was the current situation of the bugs in the
>current version to deal with (like the video noise at virtually every
>vertical seam of the walls). I also don't really care much to argue
>showed one (doesn't matter) to him on day one and the other to him on
>day two, virtually no one would refer to one over the other as "like
>night and day." Most wouldn't even know you changed shots. That's my
>point. Hey, without looking, what version was used for the box shots?
>People raved about them so which one was it?
That's easy, the box shows the non-accelerated version. Just one look is
all you need. There IS that much difference. Before I saw the Voodoo
version, I never really realised how large the pixels were. Now, I simply
CANNOT go back to the non-accelerated version. So yeah, I think the
difference IS day and night.
Led Mirage
In article <32a77ff1...@news.erols.com>,
Rich Heimlich <ric...@erols.com> wrote:
>
>Excuse me? Apparently you didn't see my post. I own (in addition to
>virtually any PC hardware on the market due to my vocation) a
>Righteous 3D and several Rendition cards. I have no ulterior motive to
>make such comments. Whatever turns out to be best I have the option of
>using so it doesn't matter to me. While I will easily say that the
>3Dfx version of Tomb Raider is superior to the non-3D version, I would
>nice improvement but to suggest that it's like PLAYING A DIFFERENT
>GAME?! Ludicrous. That's stretching the phrase to the breaking point.
How far have you gone in TR? The first few levels don't show a lot of
improvments, but in later levels (like Midas Palace), the difference *IS*
day and night! As a matter of fact, the accelerated version makes the
normal version (at svga) looks sick. And thats no mean feat. Considered
that TR looks very good already at svga.
Led Mirage
In article <01bbde4e$60a286a0$48491ecc@Netcom>,
But there were sure enough people rush out to buy Matrox products. There
seems to be always some complain about a Millenium not working with some
game or another. And yet its DOS performance is not as good as a ET6000.
Go figure (And the price difference is not that much either)
Led Mirage
In article <01bbde5a$81631d80$48491ecc@Netcom>,>maybe you can help me out on this upgrade question. I have 24 meg of 60ns
>DRAM. I want to upgrade to 32 or 40 meg. Do I add to my DRAM or start
>over and buy EDO?
I don't think EDO makes THAT much of a difference. But I think a good
vidoe card does (as compared to an el-cheapo card). Might as well save
the money for a good 3D card and a good 2D card.
Terrence Yee
Don M. Bizub wrote:
>
> Most of us face multiple upgrade decisions, there is nothing wrong with
> debating which ones are worth the money and which ones are not.
Couldn't agree with you more! <EGADS! :)> It's just your denigrating
approach is hardly conducive to healthy debate.
Ty
Keith Young
Don M. Bizub <don...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<01bbde2d$cd03e620$b9491ecc@Netcom>...
> Rich Heimlich <ric...@erols.com> wrote in article
>
> > The bigger question is in how many people are likely to spend $300 on
> > a video upgrade card when they apparently didn't spend the same money
> > on their core system. I am left to wonder how many 3Dfx owners have
> > "basic" systems. I suspect it's a non-representively low number.
>
I suspect the same (as evidenced by some of the more out-spoken around
here)...
> Exactly. For a lot of us people with p90s, adding a 3DFX also means
adding
> a 2D card, thus making the total expenditure compete with the cost of a
> chip upgrade.
>
...speaking of which, Hi Don <grin>... Don, the two are not causeually (?)
related. ie. buying a stand-alone 3D card does NOT cause you to need to buy
a 2D card as well (this is what you are 'implying', unless I
misunderstood...).
I will agree with you that 'some' people with p90s 'also' (regardless of
3D) need/want to upgrade thier 2D. That was obviously the case with you
and many others, but the two are not directly related.
Some people are perfectly content with (and/or just got through spending a
lot of money for) thier current 2D card. Do you dispute this?
> Those that have maxed out there system think nothing of another $300.
> Those of us who haven't must weigh the cost of one upgrade vs. another.
>
With my above qualification, I agree with you on this.
> Do I get a bigger hard drive this month, more memory next month, upgrade
> the video next, then buy a MMX chip? What about a tape backup system, a
> zip/jaz drive or a larger monitor?
>
Yup.. same questions apply to people with maxed out systems.. there's
always something better/faster/etc around the corner.
> Most of us face multiple upgrade decisions, there is nothing wrong with
> debating which ones are worth the money and which ones are not.
>
But what you've been doing is _not_ debating, it's sarcasm, jabs about
t-shirts/coupons, silly quips and comparisons to consoles machines... this
is not debating, it's mid-day talk-show hosting.
Don, the problem people are having with your "_debating_ which ones are
_worth_ the money and which ones are _not_" is... It's entirely subjective.
For you (and a lot of other people), the decision you made fits *your*
situation, value system and currently budgeted funds.
There's nothing at all wrong with this (no need to defend it), and I don't
think you'd get any (much) argument if you weren't constantly trying to
force *your* value system on everyone else (bashing fine products and
companies while you are at it). You seem to be bent on getting everyone to
agree with you... which they won't.
You are happy with your decision (?)... let others be happy with thiers.
There's no need to be bashing companies/cards for no good reason here.
----
Keith
Jon Graehl
>>No argument here, but I think the seams are in both versions...
>
>I just looked. I don't see them here in the SVGA version. Maybe
>they're just more obvious in the current 3Dfx beta.
The seams were in the old, non-accelerated demo. Then a newer version came
out, which melded the seams together, but suffered from a very disconcerting
texture-jumping effect (where the alignment changes)
Before you point out that most people wouldn't notice this, my little brother
who is not in any way technical, found it to be very annoying
This problem still exists in the retail version
The seams are far less noticeable than in the low-res unaccelerated demo which
had them
And I agree that "night and day" is not appropriate in describing the
stil-frame improvement in SVGA, it certainly is when describing the overall
experience, for those computers that cannot drive the SVGA version at a
reasonable speed (this includes my P133/32 meg ram)
But perhaps I overestimate the perceptiveness of the middle-aged businessmen
who do not even play games themselves and whose reactions are scarcely fast
enough to demand smooth gameplay
Don M. Bizub
Keith Young <kyo...@cstone.net> wrote in article
> ...speaking of which, Hi Don <grin>... Don, the two are not causeually
(?)
> related. ie. buying a stand-alone 3D card does NOT cause you to need to
buy
> a 2D card as well (this is what you are 'implying', unless I
> misunderstood...).
You are correct, but I am sure that more consumers will walk into Best Buy
looking to replace there video card vs. looking to ad 3D only.
> I will agree with you that 'some' people with p90s 'also' (regardless of
> 3D) need/want to upgrade thier 2D. That was obviously the case with you
> and many others, but the two are not directly related.
My original posts to this group was to ask about the best way to upgrade
from my 2meg ATI card. I was sick of the problems with display doctor and
GP2 was lacking.
Most of the response was "get a voodoo card" or buy a $200 2D only card
then save up for a voodoo card.
> Some people are perfectly content with (and/or just got through spending
a
> lot of money for) thier current 2D card. Do you dispute this?
I think those that just got through spending a lot of money on their 2D
card are the most defensive. The thought of a $150 3D card as fast as an
et6000 in SVGA would tick me off too if I just blew a few hundred on 2D
only.
> > Those that have maxed out there system think nothing of another $300.
> > Those of us who haven't must weigh the cost of one upgrade vs. another.
> >
>
> With my above qualification, I agree with you on this.
>
> > Do I get a bigger hard drive this month, more memory next month,
upgrade
> > the video next, then buy a MMX chip? What about a tape backup system, a
> > zip/jaz drive or a larger monitor?
>
> Yup.. same questions apply to people with maxed out systems.. there's
> always something better/faster/etc around the corner.
maybe you can help me out on this upgrade question. I have 24 meg of 60ns
DRAM. I want to upgrade to 32 or 40 meg. Do I add to my DRAM or start
over and buy EDO?
> But what you've been doing is _not_ debating, it's sarcasm, jabs about
> t-shirts/coupons, silly quips and comparisons to consoles machines...
this
> is not debating, it's mid-day talk-show hosting.
I am not the only one making these arguments. To be fair though,
Intergraph just sent me a T-shirt so I guess we are even on that issue.
I find it strange that the only outrage you see is in the Verite camp.
There are plenty of jabs (most of them R rated) from voodoo owners. I see
little outrage over that.
Don Biz
Namae
On 29 Nov 1996 19:47:47 GMT, "Don M. Bizub" <don...@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
>Rich Heimlich <ric...@erols.com> wrote in article
>
>> The bigger question is in how many people are likely to spend $300 on
>> a video upgrade card when they apparently didn't spend the same money
>> on their core system. I am left to wonder how many 3Dfx owners have
>> "basic" systems. I suspect it's a non-representively low number.
>
>Exactly. For a lot of us people with p90s, adding a 3DFX also means adding
>a 2D card, thus making the total expenditure compete with the cost of a
>chip upgrade.
??? You do not need good 2D card to use 3DFX. When you run 3DFX
accelerated softwares, Righteous3D takes over your existing 2D video
card so it doesn't matter what type of 2D video card you got.
This is different from PowerVR whose performance is dependent on your
2D video card.
Scott Pedersen
Rich Heimlich wrote:
> You wouldn't want to play the Quake version anymore but VQuake
> couldn't be fairly described, by the masses, as "night and day,"
> "worlds apart" or "like playing a whole new game" over the SVGA
> version.
Actually, though ill no doubt get flamed for this, id say the biggest
'visual' improvement of any game so far (if just taken on a 'stills'
basis) would have to be Whiplash on the Voodoo, versus the normal
version..
Scott Pedersen
Richard Ward
In article <32a16b5c...@nntp.aiinc.com>,
Andrew Ariens <ari...@aiinc.com> wrote:
>On 29 Nov 1996 19:47:47 GMT, "Don M. Bizub" <don...@ix.netcom.com>
>wrote:
>
>>a 2D card
>
>have 2D cards? How the hell do you get a screen displayed then?!
>Sheez.
No, what Don "My Brother is an Only Child" Bizub is saying is that when he
bought his P90 he bought it with a piece of crap video card and he would feel
lame putting a $300.00 3D card in his system and still have to live with
crappy 2D performance. He seems to think that it is Orchid's fault that he
had a crappy 2D card. He cannot understand that some of us bought good video
cards (instead of a pile of soon to be abandoned game consoles) and do not
need to upgrade.
--
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The box...you opened it. We came. It's a means to summon us - Cenobites. |
| Explorers in the further regions of experience. Demons to some, angels to |
| others. ... No tears please. It's a waste of good suffering." - Pinhead |
| rrw...@netcom.com Richard R. Ward |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Scott Pedersen
Rich Heimlich wrote:
>
> "Keith Young" <kyo...@cstone.net> wrote:
>
> >No argument here, but I think the seams are in both versions...
>
> I just looked. I don't see them here in the SVGA version. Maybe
> they're just more obvious in the current 3Dfx beta.
Rich, did you note in the 3dfx version, that also totally gone though
are the massive level of 'texture warps'?.... This for me, (coupled
with the speed, and general look IMO) was a quite significant
difference.....
Scott Pedersen
Don M. Bizub
Richard Ward <rrw...@netcom.com> wrote in article
> No, what Don "My Brother is an Only Child" Bizub is saying is that when
he
> bought his P90 he bought it with a piece of cra$$# video card and he
would feel
> lame putting a $300.00 3D card in his system and still have to live with
> cra$$# 2D performance. He seems to think that it is Orchid's fault that
he
> had a cra$$# 2D card.
Actually Richard, the video card I had when I first upgraded from a 486DX50
to a P90 was an Orchid Fahrenheit. So I guess I can blame Orchid. :)
Don Biz
btw. I bought the Orchid based on a review in PC Magazine. I then moved on
to an ATI Graphic Expression (also favorably reviewed in its day). I
almost bought a et6000 card but someone told me to wait for a 3D card. All
it took was Microsoft, ID, Sierra and Intergraph's endorsement to convince
me to get a Reactor. Imagine how pleased I was when PC Magazine choose it
as the top 3D card! :)
Namae
On 30 Nov 1996 05:04:19 GMT, "Don M. Bizub" <don...@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
>btw. I bought the Orchid based on a review in PC Magazine. I then moved on
>to an ATI Graphic Expression (also favorably reviewed in its day). I
>almost bought a et6000 card but someone told me to wait for a 3D card. All
>it took was Microsoft, ID, Sierra and Intergraph's endorsement to convince
>me to get a Reactor. Imagine how pleased I was when PC Magazine choose it
>as the top 3D card! :)
Tell me about it. PC Mag didn't even review 3DFX Voodoo. Too
powerful?
:)
Don M. Bizub
Led Mirage <lmi...@interlog.com> wrote in article
> But there were sure enough people rush out to buy Matrox products. There
> seems to be always some complain about a Millenium not working with some
> game or another. And yet its DOS performance is not as good as a ET6000.
> Go figure (And the price difference is not that much either)
What is it about Matrox that causes this situation? People either love um
or hate um, there is no in between.
I would be willing to bet that the Verite is faster in windows 2D than the
Matrox was with it's version 1 drivers. Most of the "Verite is slow in Win
2D" comments are from people without the color cursor fix. I can tell you
that even with version 1 drivers, Verite is faster than ATI Mach64.
Don Biz
Namae
On 30 Nov 1996 01:08:03 GMT, "Don M. Bizub" <don...@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
>maybe you can help me out on this upgrade question. I have 24 meg of 60ns
>DRAM. I want to upgrade to 32 or 40 meg. Do I add to my DRAM or start
>over and buy EDO?
You RAM is fast (60ns) and you got more than enough (24MB) for PC
gaming. Get a good 3D accelerator card instead :)
Don M. Bizub
Namae <tt...@columbia.edu> wrote in article
> Tell me about it. PC Mag didn't even review 3DFX Voodoo. Too
> powerful?
> :)
Maybe? It is supposable 30% faster than the Verite. I just saw another
interesting review on C-Net .
http://www.gamecenter.com/Xperts/Gamegirl/112796/
Don Biz
marvin
On 29 Nov 1996 05:46:15 GMT, unk...@account.com (ALX) wrote:
>In article <01bbdd59$c7c19100$7d79aac7@hal9000>, "Skip Ledford"
><skip...@america.net> wrote:
>
>> Just out of curiosity, how much does the playstation TR cost? The
>> PC Tomb Raider I saw cost $40, and I sure don't remember seeing
>> *any* of the newer generation consoles selling games for $40!
>
>I haven't been in the console market as of late, but one of the
>huge PS titles, Tekken2, did retail for under $40 upon its debut
>(Best Buy and Target - something in the range of $36-$38).
>
>->ALX<-
>
FRY's Electronics in San Jose has Tomb Raider for $29.00
Smoke Crack and Worship Satan
In article <01bbde54$8b4cb5a0$a066c5cd@kosh>, "Keith Young" <kyo...@cstone.net>
wrote:
> Don M. Bizub <don...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
> <01bbde2d$cd03e620$b9491ecc@Netcom>...
> > Most of us face multiple upgrade decisions, there is nothing wrong with
> > debating which ones are worth the money and which ones are not.
> >
>
> t-shirts/coupons, silly quips and comparisons to consoles machines... this
> is not debating, it's mid-day talk-show hosting.
>
> _worth_ the money and which ones are _not_" is... It's entirely subjective.
> For you (and a lot of other people), the decision you made fits *your*
> situation, value system and currently budgeted funds.
>
> There's nothing at all wrong with this (no need to defend it), and I don't
> think you'd get any (much) argument if you weren't constantly trying to
> force *your* value system on everyone else (bashing fine products and
> companies while you are at it). You seem to be bent on getting everyone to
> agree with you... which they won't.
Am I reading this right? Are you attempting to reason with Don? Don cannot be reasoned with!
Don is evil and must be destroyed!
>
> You are happy with your decision (?)... let others be happy with thiers.
> There's no need to be bashing companies/cards for no good reason here.
>
Don knows this. He's just an asshole who enjoys irritating other people for some godforsaken
reason. Maybe he wants attention.
Terrence Yee
Don M. Bizub wrote:
>
> Maybe? It is supposable 30% faster than the Verite. I just saw another
> interesting review on C-Net .
> http://www.gamecenter.com/Xperts/Gamegirl/112796/
Nice easy reading article. It's unfortunate she got a few things wrong,
namely mentioning the Verite got the first native ports of Hyperblade
(Direct3d for crying out loud), Descent2 (Virge was actually the
first-neither the Verite nor the Voodoo have complete D2 patches out),
and Tomb Raider (which we all know, the 3Dfx is the first, and so far
only card that accelerates this incredible game).
Ty
Opher Aloni
> btw. I bought the Orchid based on a review in PC Magazine. I then moved on
> to an ATI Graphic Expression (also favorably reviewed in its day). I
> almost bought a et6000 card but someone told me to wait for a 3D card. All
> it took was Microsoft, ID, Sierra and Intergraph's endorsement to convince
> me to get a Reactor. Imagine how pleased I was when PC Magazine choose it
> as the top 3D card! :)
The roundup in PC Magazine did not include the 3DFX based cards. but if
you take a look at another 3D card roundup made by CGW (also part of ZD
magazines) u will find they conclude as follows:
"Despite their so-so 2D performance, we were very impressed with the
3D performance of the Rendition-based boards, especially
considering their $200 price-point in a 4 MB configuration."
"The absolute best combination, however, would be to meld the
2D performance of a Matrox Mystique, Diamond Stealth or
Lightspeed 128 with the
Righteous 3D. Then you’d have the hottest graphics setup for gaming
around—not
to mention one of the priciest—at least for a while."
l8r,
Opher.
Robbie Diehl
Rich Heimlich wrote:
>
> "Steve Minor" <steve...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> >That is for sure. It is worlds better--no question about it.
> >
> >Let's look at the facts. On my P166:
>
> Your facts included speed improvements. I'm not talking about speed
> improvement at all. That's obvious and goes without saying. No
> argument there.
>
> >Some people have agendas, keep that in mind. For those people, if they
> >have choosen to support brand "X", they'll never say anything positive
> >about brand "Y". The good thing is that the comments these people make are
> >so obviously out of touch that they are easy to dismiss--as you noticed.
>
> Excuse me? Apparently you didn't see my post. I own (in addition to
> virtually any PC hardware on the market due to my vocation) a
> Righteous 3D and several Rendition cards. I have no ulterior motive to
> make such comments. Whatever turns out to be best I have the option of
> using so it doesn't matter to me. While I will easily say that the
> 3Dfx version of Tomb Raider is superior to the non-3D version, I would
> say that it's a very nice improvement. Cosmetically I feel that it's a
> nice improvement but to suggest that it's like PLAYING A DIFFERENT
> GAME?! Ludicrous. That's stretching the phrase to the breaking point.
For some reason you neglect to realise that much of "visual
improvement" lies in the area of how fluidly a game animates on the
screen. No matter how good a game looks, if it runs at a slideshow, its
not going to look good to me. For that reason, I believe the 3dfx
version is much much better than the PC version.. If you try and run at
320x200 to even attempt to make the game as smooth as the 3dfx version,
then load the 3dfx version which is much smoother and much more detailed
as well, it looks like dog food compared to the 3dfx version (and
probably the verite version too, once it comes out).
So, I think you need to equate the two visually by including its
fluidity with the overall improved graphics because most of the beauty
of its visuals lie in the fluid movement.
I had been playing the regular Tomb Raider on my PC for about two weeks
before I got the patch, with about 10 people seeing the game, and not
really saying anything regarding how amazing it was. When I got the
accelerated patch, after about 4 days, every single person who has
seenthe game playing have been in awe watching the graphics and how
smooth/lifelike the movement is. The feel is different, you can see
things much more clearly, its just a more enjoyable game now. I am not
saying it is a new game because of the patch, but it has much improved
gameplay as a result.
pur...@primenet.com
>Led Mirage <lmi...@interlog.com> wrote in article
>> But there were sure enough people rush out to buy Matrox products. There
>> seems to be always some complain about a Millenium not working with some
>> game or another. And yet its DOS performance is not as good as a ET6000.
>> Go figure (And the price difference is not that much either)
>What is it about Matrox that causes this situation? People either love um
>or hate um, there is no in between.
Resolution. There are few cards out there that can give you the resolutions
and color depths the Matrox cards can give you and still have good Dos
performance. The only new card I have found that tries is the STB Velocity,
but it doesn't do Vesa 2.0.
>I would be willing to bet that the Verite is faster in windows 2D than the
>Matrox was with it's version 1 drivers. Most of the "Verite is slow in Win
>2D" comments are from people without the color cursor fix. I can tell you
>that even with version 1 drivers, Verite is faster than ATI Mach64.
The Verite may be faster at lower color depths, but 1280x1024+ at 65K and
higher is another story. Course these cards weren't designed with that kind of
use in mind (much to my dismay).
Don M. Bizub
Terrence Yee <ty...@aloha.com> wrote in article <32A029...@aloha.com>...
I think she was referring to the first "deal" cut to produce those games,
not the first release. It was in context to how the entire industry has
lined up behind Rendition.
Don Biz
btw. doesn't Intel own a big part of C-Net?
Andrew Ariens
On 30 Nov 1996 19:27:51 GMT, "Don M. Bizub" <don...@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
Hyperblade is Direct3D, no "deal" was cut with ANY hardware company.
The first "deal" for Tomb Raider was cut with 3Dfx.
--
Andrew Ariens
ari...@aiinc.com
http://www.trailerpark.com/phase1/ariens/index.html
Doyoon Kim
Ok, I have a 3dfx card and before I say how incredible this game is with
it, let me say that I thought this game was INCREDIBLE when I first
played it for a week without the 3dfx.
I say that because I really love this game because of the puzzles,
story, and gameplay involved in it. I don't really think the higher
frame rate improved the gameplay on my p133 because 80% of the game is
exploring and looking around. Occasionally, I will run into a pack of
wolves or other ferocious animals but this game is not like Quake where
80% of Quake is killing everything. In other words, if Quake ran at
10fps then it wouldn't be playable for me. But TR at 10fps in svga with
its auto aiming was very playable for me in my opinion.
Now that I'm playing it with the 3dfx patch, I just find it to be an
extra enhancement to this wonderful game already.
---
Doyoon
Rich Heimlich
mcke...@cadvision.com (Grant McKenzie) wrote:
>A big difference in Quake vs vQuake for me, Rich, was that before I
>installed the Reactor 3D, I couldn't play Quake in SVGA. So, simply because
>I had a lousy, generic videocard before, I really noticed a huge difference
>in vQuake. Now that I've seen unaccelerated Quake running in SVGA on a
>Mystique, the difference doesn't seem to be as great as I initially
Exactly. It's as if people somehow mute their perspective of the older
version in face of the new version. I can't do that and get away with
it.
*** RTH ***
Rich Heimlich
Publisher/Executive Editor
Escapade
(http://www.escapade.com)
Rich Heimlich
> So, I think you need to equate the two visually by including its
>fluidity with the overall improved graphics because most of the beauty
>of its visuals lie in the fluid movement.
There's certainly some wisdom in that statement. But of course that's
going to depend on the platforms and speeds in question, thus, a
moving target.
>smooth/lifelike the movement is. The feel is different, you can see
>things much more clearly, its just a more enjoyable game now. I am not
>saying it is a new game because of the patch, but it has much improved
>gameplay as a result.
Read the above once again. It's perfect. If that's what people
generally said about the difference I'd have never posted a contrary
comment. That didn't happen.
Rich Heimlich
>Yeah, I'm a little sick of seeing this one myself. If you have such a
>crappy 2d card in your computer now, then you must not have cared
>about the slower performance from your computer that you've been
>getting before the 3d cards.That is probably why you're content with
>the slower performance of the verite card for 3d. Most game lovers
Face it, most consumers, in virtually every area of life, are
satisfied with solutions that aren't optimal. TV, VCR's, phones,
computers, sneakers, clothes, food. People are quite happy without
having to reach out for "the best." Always have been and likely always
will be.
Nus
>Actually, though ill no doubt get flamed for this, id say the biggest
>'visual' improvement of any game so far (if just taken on a 'stills'
>basis) would have to be Whiplash on the Voodoo, versus the normal
>version..
>Scott Pedersen
I personally would say Mechwarrior 2 3DFX accelerated (just got it
today)... Talk about a *big* visual difference... heh...
--Nus
Nus
>I think those that just got through spending a lot of money on their 2D
>card are the most defensive. The thought of a $150 3D card as fast as an
>et6000 in SVGA would tick me off too if I just blew a few hundred on 2D
>only.
The whole point is that it's not AS fast... It's almost as fast. Let
me put it this way, Don--if my Reactor was as fast as my Lightspeed
128 in both VESA 2.0 and Windows performance, then I would be running
the Reactor in my main system, as opposed to my secondary system. But
as it stands, in a game like Mech2: Mercenaries, the speed difference
is rather apparent (more options have to be shut off to retain
performance). I know saying it's just a few frames faster is
nitpicky, but there are those of us who aim for maximum performance.
There's no doubt which is the better price value--that distinction
goes soley to the Intergraph Reactor. But some of us are willing to
pay for performance, and the payback is usually worth it.
>maybe you can help me out on this upgrade question. I have 24 meg of 60ns
>DRAM. I want to upgrade to 32 or 40 meg. Do I add to my DRAM or start
>over and buy EDO?
If your on a budget, upgrade your current memory. If you want more
performance, and are willing to pay for it, go with the EDO. That's
what I did.
--Nus
Don M. Bizub
Nus <*n...@vegas.infi.net*> wrote in article <57qp3o$n...@nw101.infi.net>...
> If your on a budget, upgrade your current memory. If you want more
> performance, and are willing to pay for it, go with the EDO. That's
> what I did.
I checked my motherboard instructions and it says I can mix and match. It
also says that I can add SIMMs in any size in any slot. I don't really
believe this, I thought SIMMs had to be paired. Anyone have info on this.
btw, I overclocked my p90 to a p100 today after reading how to do it in
this group. Everything went ok and I now have a p100! How cool is that!
Don Biz
Anthony Q. Martin
Nus,
You must be trying to drive us mad. I keep seeing the one line burbs from
you but no meat.
GIVE US SOME MEAT, MAN. I (and many others) didn't get our copy an will
have to wait til
next week.
Please!
Anthony
--
mailto:anthony...@ces.clemson.edu
Nus <*n...@vegas.infi.net*> wrote in article <57qmn9$c...@nw101.infi.net>...
jcapr...@aol.com
Rich Heimlich Wrote:
>Face it, most consumers, in virtually every area of life, are
>satisfied with solutions that aren't optimal. TV, VCR's, phones,
>computers, sneakers, clothes, food. People are quite happy without
>having to reach out for "the best." Always have been and likely always
>will be.
I have to disagree with you here. We are in a unique situation with the 3d
advent of computer gaming. WHen I make the following comparisons I am
referring to the topic of 3dfx only, not all aspects of the "Ultimate
Gaming Rig." Here is the situation, someone who has a p100 with a 32-bit
1MB video card or a p200 with a hercules 128, will both get the same tomb
raider with a 3dfx card, its somewhat of an equalizer in terms of 3d
performance. Everyone has a 2d card now, so why not spend the extrea
hundred bucks and get the top of the line! The marginal cost for the best
is not as high here as in many other areas of consumer electronics. For
example, I have a $325 VCR from sony, cool. It has hifi stereo, vcr+
(which I don't use), a cool remote, and it sets its own clock. Nice
machine, right? Well this is a middle of the road VCR as far as sony is
concerned, their high-end model goes into s-vhs, and other stuff which i
can't rmember right now. I need a different television to use svhs and
the price of this VCR is around $700. To buy an s-video televsion is
another $1000. All of these high-end items have complimentary high-end
items that you almost have to purchase. So these upgrades breed more
upgrades, most people could afford the $700 VCR if they really really
wanted to, but the couldn't afford all the other equipment to utilize that
upgrade which then makes the added options of the $700 VCR superfluous.
It works vice versa with the televsion. Buy a 40" television then you
have to upgrade to home theatre! Most people would even have to upgrade
their home! $125 sneakers take a lot of hard work and exercise to
utilize the extra support that they offer. With voodoo if you spend the
extra $100 bucks, that's it you've got the best, with no other upgrades
necessary.(Though you may want to upgrade that monitor to enjoy all those
pretty pictures :) ) Hey I'm a fanatic too and I'll do a lot to keep
pace, but this is for the casual user. There's so few opportunities we
have to ever have the best of anything, and most all of us deserve it (at
one time or another). Even if its only for a little while. This just
happens to be one of those times where when you buy the best, and the soft
"click" of the voodoo chipset relay kicks-in, you can sit back and know
that you are experiencing the best of whatever game it is you are playing,
in this case Tomb Raider. That's easily worth a hundred bucks to me,
maybe I'm alone, but my bet is that anyone who is reading this would
probably agree.
-J.Capra
Namae
On Sun, 01 Dec 1996 01:17:38 GMT, *n...@vegas.infi.net* (Nus) wrote:
>
>>Actually, though ill no doubt get flamed for this, id say the biggest
>>'visual' improvement of any game so far (if just taken on a 'stills'
>>basis) would have to be Whiplash on the Voodoo, versus the normal
>>version..
>
>>Scott Pedersen
>
>I personally would say Mechwarrior 2 3DFX accelerated (just got it
>today)... Talk about a *big* visual difference... heh...
!!!!!!!!!
AND!? AND WHAT!?!?!?!?
Give us more details please!
Terrence Yee
Don M. Bizub wrote:
>
> I think those that just got through spending a lot of money on their 2D
> card are the most defensive. The thought of a $150 3D card as fast as an
> et6000 in SVGA would tick me off too if I just blew a few hundred on 2D
> only.
Well I'm happy with my ET6000 (spent about $179 retail) but what really
influenced my decision was what I simply heard from developers at the
time.
Btw, people get DEFENSIVE (your word) when you get OFFENSIVE. Which is
the way you've come across. Don't you ever ask yourself why so many
people have been quite beligerant with you as opposed to others? Sorry
to say, it's you man, just you and the way you come off.
> maybe you can help me out on this upgrade question. I have 24 meg of 60ns
> DRAM. I want to upgrade to 32 or 40 meg. Do I add to my DRAM or start
> over and buy EDO?
Don't bother at this point. Save up for a MMX pent that should
hopefully fit your Mobo.
> > But what you've been doing is _not_ debating, it's sarcasm, jabs about
> > t-shirts/coupons, silly quips and comparisons to consoles machines...
> this
> > is not debating, it's mid-day talk-show hosting.
>
> I am not the only one making these arguments. To be fair though,
> Intergraph just sent me a T-shirt so I guess we are even on that issue.
You were, AFAIK, the first to make the bizarre console comparison and
quips re: the t-shirt vs your Vquake.
> I find it strange that the only outrage you see is in the Verite camp.
> There are plenty of jabs (most of them R rated) from voodoo owners. I see
> little outrage over that.
I may not be getting all of the messages here but imo (and perhaps this
is only true for me) some of your posts, be they comparisons or
allegations, are really ludicrious and as was mentioned before by
someone else (a verite owner no less), needlessly inflammatory.
Ty
Nus
ric...@erols.com (Rich Heimlich) wrote:
>>Yeah, I'm a little sick of seeing this one myself. If you have such a
>>crappy 2d card in your computer now, then you must not have cared
>>about the slower performance from your computer that you've been
>>getting before the 3d cards.That is probably why you're content with
>>the slower performance of the verite card for 3d. Most game lovers
>Face it, most consumers, in virtually every area of life, are
>satisfied with solutions that aren't optimal. TV, VCR's, phones,
>computers, sneakers, clothes, food. People are quite happy without
>having to reach out for "the best." Always have been and likely always
>will be.
I agree with Rich here. I mean, why are Packard Bells the top-selling
PCs? Surely not for quality. Why do people buy Stealth 3Ds?
Quality is once again something that does not come to mind.
Consumers tend to buy with their pocket books; it is left to those of
us who are informed buyers to locate the *real* powerhouse products.
--Nus
Sal
>I may not be getting all of the messages here but imo (and perhaps this
>is only true for me) some of your posts, be they comparisons or
>allegations, are really ludicrious and as was mentioned before by
>someone else (a verite owner no less), needlessly inflammatory.
>
>Ty
What are you, the fucking moderator??? I am getting sick of you
taking Don's every post and dissecting it like some school teacher.
Really, if you have nothing to contribute other than trying to point
out what an asshole Don is, why don't you take a closer look at
yourself???
Nus
"Anthony Q. Martin" <anthony...@ces.clemson.edu> wrote:
>Nus,
>You must be trying to drive us mad. I keep seeing the one line burbs from
>you but no meat.
>GIVE US SOME MEAT, MAN. I (and many others) didn't get our copy an will
>have to wait til
>next week.
>Please!
>Anthony
>--
>mailto:anthony...@ces.clemson.edu
Hehehe... sorry about that... Okay, here's the scoop on it--
(I live in Nevada, whereas Micronics is in California, so I imagine
that might be the reason why I got it so soon)
Almost everything is texture mapped (similer to in Mercenaries, but
obviously much smoother looking, but the mech paint is simpler--no
tiger stripes, etc. Buildings that I've seen are shaded, but I
haven't seen texture mapped ones yet). Runs smooth on my P166 in
Win95 (it's a windows version), has an option to go up to 800x600,
which gave me a noticeable drop in fps, although it was still quite
playable. Terrains look amazing (especially check out the TRIAL cadet
mission--snow-capped mountains!!), as do the mechs. The explosions
were very good, looking at least as nice if not better than the ones
in D3D Hellbender on the Voodoo. One problem I could clearly see
though was the fact that the textures on the ground didn't line up
properly when you used the external camera to look down on them.
Another problem was that it had the same bug that the Win95 version
had--In the enclosed arena, the mechs start out under the ground.
Other than those, the game runs quite well. I just wish it were the
DOS version instead, but we can't have everything...
Hope this helps a bit. :)
--Nus
Nus
>> If your on a budget, upgrade your current memory. If you want more
>> performance, and are willing to pay for it, go with the EDO. That's
>> what I did.
>I checked my motherboard instructions and it says I can mix and match. It
>also says that I can add SIMMs in any size in any slot. I don't really
>believe this, I thought SIMMs had to be paired. Anyone have info on this.
>btw, I overclocked my p90 to a p100 today after reading how to do it in
>this group. Everything went ok and I now have a p100! How cool is that!
>Don Biz
Really? Hey, congratulations! As to your above statement, it sounds
a little strange that it would say that you could mix and match any
SIMM in any slot. As far as I know, they have to be the same type of
SIMM from SIMM Bank to SIMM Bank (a SIMM bank being two slots to pair
SIMMS into). If you put EDO SIMMS in one bank and regulars in
another, I would imagine it would slow all your SIMMS down to the
speed of the regulars. That's just my understanding.
If you run your processor at 100 as opposed to 90, EDO simms would
give you an extra speed boost, because the processor at 100mhz (the
66mhz bus) will run a bit too fast for regular SIMMS, and wait states
will be inserted into the cycles. Once again, I could be a bit off
here, but this is my understanding. Either way, when I changed my
P100's SIMMS from 70ns standard to 60ns EDO, there was a noticeable
speed increase. Killing off the wait states, to be sure. (I've never
tried using the P166 with the regular SIMMS, and I'm not quite sure if
I would want to either).
--Nus
ttammi
"Don M. Bizub" <don...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>almost bought a et6000 card but someone told me to wait for a 3D card.
>All it took was Microsoft, ID, Sierra and Intergraph's endorsement to
>convince me to get a Reactor. Imagine how pleased I was when PC
>Magazine choose it as the top 3D card! :)
Yes, it compared very favorably against the slow and cheapo Virge cards
in that review. ;-) Fortunate to you no Voodoo cards were present in
that review, phew.
ttammi
"Don M. Bizub" <don...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>the Matrox was with it's version 1 drivers. Most of the "Verite is
>slow in Win 2D" comments are from people without the color cursor
>fix. I can tell you that even with version 1 drivers, Verite is
>faster than ATI Mach64.
That is not saying much, since my old, cheapo Genoa Phantom64 2MB DRAM
card is faster in Windows than an ATI Mach64 2MB VRAM card.
ttammi
"Don M. Bizub" <don...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>I think she was referring to the first "deal" cut to produce those
>games, not the first release. It was in context to how the entire
>industry has lined up behind Rendition.
Apparently it hasn't, seeing how you're still playing VQuake.
Grant McKenzie
In article <57qmn9$c...@nw101.infi.net>,
*n...@vegas.infi.net* (Nus) wrote:
>>Actually, though ill no doubt get flamed for this, id say the biggest
>>'visual' improvement of any game so far (if just taken on a 'stills'
>>basis) would have to be Whiplash on the Voodoo, versus the normal
>>version..
>
>>Scott Pedersen
>
>I personally would say Mechwarrior 2 3DFX accelerated (just got it
>today)... Talk about a *big* visual difference... heh...
>
>--Nus
>
Agreed. MechWarrior 2 3dfx is incredible. I've played quite a few different
versions of this one (original, Mystique version and Voodoo) and the Voodoo
is by far the most realistic looking. You actually feel like you've landed
on an alien planet. For MechWarrior fans this will be the title that will
sell them on a Voodoo card.
Cheers, Grant
Mark
On 29 Nov 1996 23:41:00 GMT, "Don M. Bizub" <don...@ix.netcom.com>
blah blahed:
>Andrew Ariens <ari...@aiinc.com> wrote in article
>
>> Um, are there a lot of "you people" out there with p90s that don't
>> have 2D cards? How the hell do you get a screen displayed then?!
>> Sheez.
>
>Not all of us rushed out to buy et6000 cards.
>
>:)
>
>Don Biz
Yup me neither, what's your point ?
--
Mark
aka QUTA:DANGERMAN
"aaaaah... GIB GIB GIB"
Mark
On 27 Nov 1996 22:40:22 GMT, "Kaj Laaksonen" <ka...@pelit.fi> blah
blahed:
>
>
>I've played both and IMHO Tomb Raider Voodoo shows bigger improvement.
>Notice though that they are both patched to 3D and they both could use even
>more 3D features. Alpha blending pops into mind first. Tomb Raider has
>those nasty looking waves on water and some 2D bitmaps which are kinda out
>of place. VQuake doesn't use any transparency or fogging effects either.
>I'm sure we will see much much better games using Voodoo and Verite when
>games are being designed from the scratch with these cards in mind.
>
>-Kaizu-
>
It is worth keeping in mind this is a beta patch.
Mark
On 30 Nov 1996 05:04:19 GMT, "Don M. Bizub" <don...@ix.netcom.com>
blah blahed:
>me to get a Reactor. Imagine how pleased I was when PC Magazine choose it
>as the top 3D card! :)
>
Voodoo was not in the review. The Voodoo is the top performing 3D
card.
--
Mark
* Why do women never leave the toilet seat up?
* NOTE!!: If sending me email then remove the * at the end
of my email address! (trying to stop the junk email)
Mark
On Sun, 01 Dec 1996 14:30:11 GMT, *n...@vegas.infi.net* (Nus) blah
blahed:
>
>mission--snow-capped mountains!!), as do the mechs. The explosions
>were very good, looking at least as nice if not better than the ones
>in D3D Hellbender on the Voodoo.
>
>
Nus you did email Don didn't you, I am sure he would be pleased to
know he can't use his coupon jibe anymore :)
Michael Byrne
On Sun, 01 Dec 1996 00:54:06 GMT, ric...@erols.com (Rich Heimlich)
wrote:
>>Yeah, I'm a little sick of seeing this one myself. If you have such a
>>crappy 2d card in your computer now, then you must not have cared
>>about the slower performance from your computer that you've been
>>getting before the 3d cards.That is probably why you're content with
>>the slower performance of the verite card for 3d. Most game lovers
>
>Face it, most consumers, in virtually every area of life, are
>satisfied with solutions that aren't optimal. TV, VCR's, phones,
>computers, sneakers, clothes, food. People are quite happy without
>having to reach out for "the best." Always have been and likely always
>will be.
>
Maybe they just don't have the money to spend on "the best" or feel
their money is best spent on other more important things like say
bills. Anyway its not like a fast 2d board makes a bit of difference
on a game like quake. Quake performance seems to depend most upon the
speed of your CPU not the quality of your 2d board.
Mike Byrne