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Apogee Reaction to Jazz Jackrabbit

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sl...@cc.usu.edu

unread,
Aug 22, 1994, 3:19:44 PM8/22/94
to
Subject: Apogee reaction to Jazz codes
To: ALL

Hmph... this is getting old, but hey, here's an interesting message and its
follow-up. Go figure.

Joshua Jensen

---------------------------------------
From the Apogee board on America Online.

Subj: Re:Epic Insults
Date: 94-08-19 20:05:49 EDT
From: Apogee1

(Name Deleted),

In the first place, we didn't BAN Epic from Software Creations. That would be
like censorship and we hate it! What we did was remove their "free" file
section, because it's the Apogee board. Epic's file can still be on there in
the general games section.

By the way, Software Crwations was voted the best BBS in the country the
second year in a row a few days ago. It beat out Exec PC (Epic's Home BBS).

As far as the Jazz codes go, it was simply immature of them to do that, but it
shows you how the company is run. We won't sink to that level either and
retaliate. We'd rather focus on making better games, than bashing someone
else's company.

George Broussard
Apogee

--------------------------------
--------------------------------
--- Tim Sweeney's Reply --------
--------------------------------
--------------------------------
Sb: #Apogee Reaction / Codes
Fm: Tim Sweeney SYSOP 72662,1725

>> In the first place, we didn't BAN Epic from Software Creations. That would
be like censorship and we hate it! What we did was remove their "free" file
section, because it's the Apogee board. Epic's file can still be on there in
the general games section. <<

Software Creations is deleting *all* messages that contain the words "Epic" or
"Jazz Jackrabbit". This is their official censorship policy, which sysop Dan
Linton explained to me (Tim Sweeney) in writing. Don't believe it? Send me
your fax number in email (72662...@compuserve.com) and I'll fax it to you so
you can read all about your BBS's censorship policy yourself. :-)

>> By the way, Software Crwations was voted the best BBS in the country the
second year in a row a few days ago. It beat out Exec PC (Epic's Home BBS).
<<

Exec-PC was voted "Best Overall BBS" and won a John Dvorak award at ONE
BBSCON, the BBS comminity's primary event, in Atlanta last week. Software
Creations won a Dvorak award last year.

Exec-PC remains the world's largest BBS, with over 280 lines, making Exec-PC
several times larger than Software Creations.

At the Summer Shareware Seminar in Atlanta, Georgia, at the PC Magazine
shareware awards, Id Software won four awards for Doom, Epic won one award for
Epic Pinball, MVP Software won one award for MVP Bridge, and Apogee won no
awards (but Raptor was nominated for an award).

>> As far as the Jazz codes go, it was simply immature of them to do that, but
it shows you how the company is run. We won't sink to that level either and
retaliate. We'd rather focus on making better games, than bashing someone
else's company. <<

That's a great plan, so why is George Broussard bashing Epic MegaGames right
here in his very own message? :-)

-Tim

Eric Hsiao

unread,
Aug 23, 1994, 9:14:27 AM8/23/94
to
Not to add fuel to the fire or anything, but one of Epic's other games,
"Dare to Dream", bad mouthed ID in one section of the game. In the section
where you are exploring the sewers under the city, you'll see writing that
says "XUSDI" which is ID SUX backwards...what ever happened to good old
professional courtesy?
--
--------------+ From the creators of GIF News, comes >>> GFX News <<<
Eric Hsiao | The FREE magazine for those in the fast lane on the information
> GIF News < | highway! WWW and .GIF site going up this September. Watch for
> GFX News < | site announcement soon! Subscribe to email list: hsi...@rpi.edu

Robert C. Merritt <rcmerrit>

unread,
Aug 23, 1994, 9:55:20 AM8/23/94
to
In article <33csnj$j...@bmerha64.bnr.ca> hsi...@bnr.ca (Eric Hsiao) writes:
>Not to add fuel to the fire or anything, but one of Epic's other games,
>"Dare to Dream", bad mouthed ID in one section of the game. In the section
>where you are exploring the sewers under the city, you'll see writing that
>says "XUSDI" which is ID SUX backwards...what ever happened to good old
>professional courtesy?

"professional courtesy"? Never existed. This type of name calling went on
back in the early 80's. Naming the evil villan the slightly altered name of
your compentors was quite common. I wish I could remember some examples.
I'll have to dig through my Atari 800 stuff.

Robert Merritt
-* Disclaimer: Opinions posted here are mine and not of my employer
-*"There is always death and taxes. However death doesn't get worse every year"

Nelson Fernandez Jr

unread,
Aug 23, 1994, 6:36:37 PM8/23/94
to
George Broussard (george.b...@swcbbs.com) wrote:
> I hardly see my message I left in an Apogee forum as Epic bashing. Tim
> admitted that the Apogee code in Jazz was for beta testing only and
> accidently slipped out. We dropped it after that. Stuff happens :)

Another example of Apogee's "We never do anything wrong" attitude.

> Tim, you can't deny that this whole code thing has made Apogee look bad
> while Epic looks good. We can't win either way. If we say anything
> about it people say "Quit picking on poor little Epic" and if we do
> nothing then everyone has a good laugh at our expense. Our only option
> is to be quite and get slammed over and over, retaliate (we won't) or
> mention it to Epic which we did. We thought things were settled in a
> grown up mature way and the matter was dropped. Guess not, yet again.

Apogee makes Apogee look bad. Actually Joe Seigler makes you look REAL
BAD. You wouldn't be so angry if the 'joke' of Apology mode wasn't mostly
true!

Let your software speak for itself. If you get poked fun at for making a
million and one clones of a platform game using a similar engine, SO
WHAT!? It's the truth that you guys milked everything you could out of
the 'keen' engine. When Harry was released your press release said
something about it being (paraphrased} "ground-breaking technology
featuring 256c VGA and Digital soundtrack". Puhleeze!

I think you treat the public as children. You don't realize that even
before COSMO, the public was saying when will Apogee do something in VGA
and digital sound? Then when you finally do realease something like that
you tout it as 'groundbreaking' making it seem to the less informed that
you created 256c VGA/Digital games! (Yes, I know you didnt outright say
this)

Why not let you new software validate your status as a great company?

> Tim, should I post the many rude and flaming tpye messages posted by
> Mark Rein (Epic's VP) in an Apogee Intelec conference? There's lots of
> ammo where he says stuff like "Epic's gonna kick Apogee's big fat
> complacent butt's". Could mention that stuff but why bother :)

Well, I for one remember Joe also poking jibes at Epic. And it seemed to
be in the spirit of friendly rivalry than mean-spirited attacks.

Also I mustt include that I have personally been *banned* from all
Intelec conferences after a disagreement with Joe Siegler on a number of
your policies (on which you have since changed). It seems that Intelec is
another 'net' that like to control opinions so you and swcbbs should feel
at home with it.

> Fact is we've never done anything to Epic and in fact Scott Miller,
> Apogee's president, helped Tim countless times with advice how to start
> in shareware and how to market things when Tim was doing ZZT. Guess
> those days are long gone and forgotten. Epic has done very well and
> should be proud of themselves.

And Apogee has done well also, and should not let a little jibe make you
feel so picked on. Face it, you (Apogee) are among the big boys on the
block and it makes you look bad to cry foul over such a small issue.

--

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nelson Fernandez nel...@netcom.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dave Barney

unread,
Aug 23, 1994, 7:26:19 PM8/23/94
to
Eric Hsiao (hsi...@bnr.ca) wrote:
> Not to add fuel to the fire or anything, but one of Epic's other games,
> "Dare to Dream", bad mouthed ID in one section of the game. In the section
> where you are exploring the sewers under the city, you'll see writing that
> says "XUSDI" which is ID SUX backwards...what ever happened to good old
> professional courtesy?
******************************************************************************

YEA, and JUST WAIT till ya see what happens when you play One Must Fall 2097
BACKWARDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<G>

hee hee shux let em fight it out :):) it's something to talk about while
we wait for more good games to come out right????

Don't y'all think that Apogee should get the award for sense of humor of
the year??????

How bout a vote on who is the best shareware game company of the year to
date??? Doom is #1 but then again that's all they have to date (well
there is wolf but that's old news...
Apogee has put out the most games, but it isn't always easy to
distunguish them from one another, (but they do a hell of a job on those
previews don't they????)
Epic well naaaa I can't say it <G>Josh would yell at me :):):) I'm a
bit bias toward Epic so My vote wouldn't count really :):)

Well enough rambeling......CYA.............Dave


--
Gam...@aol.com
Daa...@eskimo.com JAZZ JACKRABBIT
cis address on request SONIC WITH AN ATTITUDE!!!!!!
cerebrial rectumitus sufferer

Vladimir Elberg

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Aug 24, 1994, 7:12:51 AM8/24/94
to
I do think Apogee is behind in the games department. I mean EGA 16 color and
platform ONLY games is what they are known for. I wanted Monster Bash VGA with
256 colors and I got a lame EGA version that had 16 colors. If Apogee wants to
remain competitive with other SHAREWARE companies, they must upgrade thier
engines by 100 percent. Why not offer stuff that others do not, Super VGA
(640x480) and (800x600) modes with 32,768 colors/16.7 million colors/Network
support/Modem support, animation like flc files and digitized graphics and
animation, phong or gaurad (spelling) shading, offer more to do then just
simple run and jump, be creative and have stuff that you can interact with
stuff and stuff can interact with you, multiple paralaxing screen layers, math
coprocessor support, sound support with 16-bit digital samples supporting
soundcards like the AWE32, GUS and of course everything else, 16-bit stereo
music, panning from left to right and right to left in the speakers, different
perspectives like viewing from different angles, Full motion video, digitized
speech, QSOUND (in some games), allow for NS16550A chips FIFO buffer for serial
support, instead of chatting via text, allow microphone to be added so that
people can talk via microphone, realistic environment, 3-D games would be true
3-D (looking up/down, jumping, ducking, shoot up, shoot down, climb up/down,
forward flip/backword flip, crawl, run and jump, fall on your back/stomach,
hang on objects, bending down to pick up objects, etc....) and they must
deliver on time with no delays, when they say its going to be out in October,
it better be out in October!

This is the way Apogee should be (see above), many people view Apogee as a
lame shareware company that makes platform games only and makes EGA 16 color
games for 1994 with no playablility or value and it makes Apogee look like
their programmers are 12 year olds that dont know how to program anything but
EGA 16 color mode. Apogee MUST change to be competitive and the above is the
way to do that. The Above makes Apogee look like a PROFESSIONAL SOFTWARE HOUSE
and like they are so professional that they are the true leaders of shareware,
even better than Commercial companies! Their games would be better than the
ones you normally buy at the store. Quality guy, quality!


Jay Iscariot

unread,
Aug 24, 1994, 3:05:38 AM8/24/94
to
Personally, I think Apogee is a just a bunch of whining little babies, with
all the original thinking of a boiled cabbage. After all, there's only so
many time you can play the same (only the names have been changed) platform
game with sixteen colors and ding-ding PC-speaker sounds before you climb
the wall and start to hate the company. But what do I know?

Jay Iscariot

Scott Miller

unread,
Aug 23, 1994, 10:57:00 PM8/23/94
to
Nelson,

The fact is, Tim Sweeney of Epic said that he didn't mean to have the
Apology mode in Jazz. It was only there for the amusement of the beta
testers. He said when he found that it was in the released version he
requested it removed.

Apogee did not cry foul! Frankly, I couldn't care if he left the mode
in there!

Maybe on our next game, we'll include a joke about Epic, then take it
out in version 1.1. That way everyone like you will think Epic is a
cry baby.

Crazy logic, huh? Sad but true, though!

Scott

Joe Siegler

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Aug 23, 1994, 10:55:00 PM8/23/94
to
NM>Also I mustt include that I have personally been *banned* from all
NM>Intelec conferences after a disagreement with Joe Siegler on a number of
NM>your policies (on which you have since changed). It seems that Intelec is

Understand that Apogee does not ban ANYONE from anywhere. While I
don't remember the circumstances of what you speak, it would be the
BBS Network doing this, not Apogee Software, nor myself or anyone
here.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Joe Siegler - Apogee Software | _|\_ |
| Online Support Manager | \ / \ Pisces Swimeatus |
| | |>< |> OO The Dopefish |
| joe.s...@swcbbs.com | / \___/UU |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
anon Apogee ftp site at ftp.uml.edu in msdos/Games/Apogee
Send me E-Mail and ask about the Apogee Mailing List!
Next Game Due Out --> Wacky Wheels (Sept 1994)
---
* 1st v2.0b/TLX v4 * IncludeDopeFish = TRUE ;reserved variable for J. Siegler

Cliff Bleszinski

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Aug 23, 1994, 4:11:00 PM8/23/94
to
>>Not to add fuel to the fire or anything, but one of Epic's other games,
>>"Dare to Dream", bad mouthed ID in one section of the game. In the section
>>where you are exploring the sewers under the city, you'll see writing that
>>says "XUSDI" which is ID SUX backwards...what ever happened to good old
>>professional courtesy?

Id, obviously, does NOT suck! I did that (fairly lame) game Dare a while
back, and it was just stupid at the time.

The Jazz codes are a bit more creative; Arjan knows what he's doing!

Cliff - Designer of Jazz Jackrabbit
---
* SLMR 2.1a *

A.R. Brussee

unread,
Aug 24, 1994, 3:40:48 PM8/24/94
to
In article <33f9vj$3...@bigfoot.wustl.edu> v...@motel6.wustl.edu (Vladimir Elberg) writes:

this is NOT about Apogee's reaction, but just about some things you stated.

You should remember that Shareware has some great limitations in file size.
When you're going to do a game in Hi-res, with big animations etcetera you
will make the game so big that no-one can ever download it. Then, you must
make your game so that you give a reasonable part away, which also limits
the styles of the games. Sure, everyone wants to make these so-called Hi-
Quality superVGA games, but sometimes there's just no way.
It would be interesting to see how Shareware develops with the rest of the
gaming market going to CD-ROM faaast.

arjan brussee - programmer of JJ

Howard Wilson

unread,
Aug 24, 1994, 10:13:30 PM8/24/94
to
Vladimir Elberg (v...@motel6.wustl.edu) wrote:
: stuff and stuff can interact with you, multiple paralaxing screen layers, math

: coprocessor support, sound support with 16-bit digital samples supporting
: soundcards like the AWE32, GUS and of course everything else, 16-bit stereo
: music, panning from left to right and right to left in the speakers, different
: perspectives like viewing from different angles, Full motion video, digitized
: speech, QSOUND (in some games), allow for NS16550A chips FIFO buffer for serial
: support, instead of chatting via text, allow microphone to be added so that
: people can talk via microphone, realistic environment, 3-D games would be true
: 3-D (looking up/down, jumping, ducking, shoot up, shoot down, climb up/down,
: deliver on time with no delays, when they say its going to be out in October,

: it better be out in October!

Hmmm..only was able to delete a couple lines...might as well have left 'em
in. In defense of Apogee, I would like to address a couple of your points.

16 bit sound support/samples/stereo music/qsound is COSTLY, in both time and
disk space. Sierra got the "include it all" bug, and now can only ship
games on CDROM. Jazz supports the 16 bit Soundblaster, so other games
could, but that would take time. Time well spent, yes, but still time.
The best (only) way to handle this would be "sound modules", the game
could be played without them...but if you DO have a SB16ASP and free disk
space, the game could use them. As far as 3D...they are working on that. I
think it will be slightly better 3D than Blake Stone/Wolf. (BTW...Since
when did "first person" equal "3d").

As far as delivering on time...no. Will never happen. Even "the big
boys" have delays in shipping. A smaller shareware outfit will have even
worse delays. Just get used to them.

Howard


--
st...@okcforum.osrhe.edu | "Remember, the truth that once was spoken:
I speak for no one but myself, | to love another person is to see the face
and no one else speaks for me. | of God." - Les Miserables fnord
Commence strategic maneuvers at audio command signal. 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, begin.

The Rink

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Aug 24, 1994, 10:51:24 PM8/24/94
to

This upsets me. An Apogee-bashing cheat code that "accidentally" slipped
out is one thing -- I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that it was
indeed accidental -- but continued bashing ("XUSDI", flame letters, etc)
is a little ridiculous. I had a rather high opinion of Epic. Now I'm
wondering if I shouldn't boycott it until when and if I find any evidence
that suggests this has been blown out of proportion.

ARE YOU LISTENING, EPIC?

--
"Hi cutie, yeef." -- clc to jlw3 =====================================
================================== From the Terminal of the Rink =
= There is a growing trend = s...@kepler.unh.edu ri...@unh.edu =
= in America to consume foods =====================================
= that are less that are less ===== No Jesus, No Peace; =
= likely to kill you. I think ===== Know Jesus, Know Peace. =
= this is counterproductive. clc ===================================
==================================== Paul Sand coolly...oh never mind.

Seth Cohn

unread,
Aug 25, 1994, 12:22:05 AM8/25/94
to
In article <b7.27078.1...@swcbbs.com>,

Scott Miller <scott....@swcbbs.com> wrote:
>The fact is, Tim Sweeney of Epic said that he didn't mean to have the
>Apology mode in Jazz. It was only there for the amusement of the beta
>testers. He said when he found that it was in the released version he
>requested it removed.
>
>Apogee did not cry foul! Frankly, I couldn't care if he left the mode
>in there!
>
>Maybe on our next game, we'll include a joke about Epic, then take it
>out in version 1.1. That way everyone like you will think Epic is a
>cry baby.

or translated for those with lesser experience with Scott:

"Nah, Nah! We can be that way too. And we're better then you are,
and we're not complaining, even though it was wrong for you to do,
and besides which, we can do it too, see if we don't. We'll teach you
to make fun of US!"

>
>Crazy logic, huh? Sad but true, though!

Indeed, Sad but True. Man makes MILLIONS on shareware, and he still
comes across like this. Worse yet, he hires Joe S. to do it for him.

Seth
[Don't bother flaming me, Apogee... I long lost respect for you folks
and your warped opinions.]


sl...@cc.usu.edu

unread,
Aug 25, 1994, 12:48:59 AM8/25/94
to
> This upsets me. An Apogee-bashing cheat code that "accidentally" slipped
> out is one thing -- I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that it was
> indeed accidental -- but continued bashing ("XUSDI", flame letters, etc)
> is a little ridiculous. I had a rather high opinion of Epic. Now I'm
> wondering if I shouldn't boycott it until when and if I find any evidence
> that suggests this has been blown out of proportion.
>
> ARE YOU LISTENING, EPIC?

Yep... Epic is listening.

How do you figure that Epic is continuing bashing? "XUSDI" was described by
Cliff Bleszinski in another message. Look for it. Flame letters? Where? The
only thing that could be traced back to Epic that has been posted on here was
posted by me... and it wasn't even anything I said. Quote me a message that
you find offensive that Epic themselves stated, and I'll know what you are
talking about.

Joshua Jensen

William Turner

unread,
Aug 25, 1994, 5:30:11 AM8/25/94
to
Well, I've been reading this thread with complete
and utter amazement...

How can both Apogee and Epic be _so_ childish?

Who cares if they have references to each other
in their games? Does it change the gameplay? NO
Does it reduce the value of the game? NO
Does it harm the other company's sales? NO
Does it give people a harmless chuckle? YES
Are harmless chuckles killing off software
companies? NO

So, what's the problem?

You didn't see everyone get all het up about the
SPISPOPD code in Doom....

Anyway, to be mentioned in a rival companies
product is an honour, it shows they regard you as
true competition...

William
----------------------------------------------------------------
|\ _,,,---,,_ Software Engineer,
ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ Acorn Computers Ltd,
|,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Cambridge, England.
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Email: wtu...@acorn.co.uk

Vladimir Elberg

unread,
Aug 25, 1994, 8:23:36 AM8/25/94
to
: this is NOT about Apogee's reaction, but just about some things you stated.

: You should remember that Shareware has some great limitations in file size.
: When you're going to do a game in Hi-res, with big animations etcetera you
: will make the game so big that no-one can ever download it. Then, you must
: make your game so that you give a reasonable part away, which also limits
: the styles of the games. Sure, everyone wants to make these so-called Hi-
: Quality superVGA games, but sometimes there's just no way.
: It would be interesting to see how Shareware develops with the rest of the
: gaming market going to CD-ROM faaast.

: arjan brussee - programmer of JJ

Like I said, I dont mind having a shareware game of 8 disks and 15 disks for
the registered or CD-ROM. I forgot to put CD-ROM in my last message.


Vladimir Elberg

unread,
Aug 25, 1994, 8:21:01 AM8/25/94
to
: this is NOT about Apogee's reaction, but just about some things you stated.

: You should remember that Shareware has some great limitations in file size.
: When you're going to do a game in Hi-res, with big animations etcetera you
: will make the game so big that no-one can ever download it. Then, you must
: make your game so that you give a reasonable part away, which also limits
: the styles of the games. Sure, everyone wants to make these so-called Hi-
: Quality superVGA games, but sometimes there's just no way.
: It would be interesting to see how Shareware develops with the rest of the
: gaming market going to CD-ROM faaast.

: arjan brussee - programmer of JJ

Where there is a will there is a way. I have a 14.4k modem and I am upgrading
to 28.8k and I dont think that it would be a problem at all if you had a
shareware game that was 6-8 sides or disks! If Quality equals disk space,
more power to Apogee! I would be willing to pay for good quality software,
even if its 15 disks!


Animesh Karna

unread,
Aug 25, 1994, 9:44:08 AM8/25/94
to
Okay, I haven't played Jazz Jackrabbit yet, but I'm curious . . .
What does the APOGEE "cheat" code do?

Thomas M Buccelli

unread,
Aug 25, 1994, 12:11:33 PM8/25/94
to
Vladimir Elberg (v...@motel6.wustl.edu) wrote:
[... snip snip snip ...]

> Where there is a will there is a way. I have a 14.4k modem and I am upgrading
> to 28.8k and I dont think that it would be a problem at all if you had a
> shareware game that was 6-8 sides or disks! If Quality equals disk space,
> more power to Apogee! I would be willing to pay for good quality software,
> even if its 15 disks!

And I can just pull things off the net, so I don't even need a modem.
The thing is, there are MANY people out there who still have 14.4 modems,
and I dare say quite a few 9600s (maybe even 2400) out there. When people
buy a new computer, they don't come with the latest and greatest 28.8
modem, they usually come with a 14.4 faxmodem. After someone has spent
around $2,000 on a new computer, they won't want to spend another $300
or so to get a new modem, especially since one just came with their new
computer, they will want to use what they have. At least the shareware
people haven't taken Origin's attitude yet.

Tom


--

Thomas M. Buccelli (t...@idm.com)

#include <std_disclaimer.h>

The Rink

unread,
Aug 25, 1994, 9:59:11 PM8/25/94
to

Especially when their last ten or so games have had SB/Adlib sounds and
VGA graphics. The last 3 or 4 have had native support for 8+ sound cards.
In the last five games, only two were platformers, one of which (Hocus)
was admittedly bad, the other of which (Duke II) was quite good.

Save for Jazz Jackrabbit (by far the best shareware platformer ever), Epic's
track record isn't that hot either. Epic Pinball was good, but they're
still trying to fix all the bugs that make it crash on every other person's
system. Xargon can't hold a candle to half the Apogee platformers. And
the Epic Puzzle Pack was pretty but poor. Traffic Department reeked. What
about Epic Baseball and One Must Fall 2097? Greater delays in release
dates Apogee has never dared. And last, but not least, Kroz is way cooler
than ZZT.

The Rink

unread,
Aug 25, 1994, 10:11:03 PM8/25/94
to
> I do think Apogee is behind in the games department. I mean EGA 16 color and
>platform ONLY games is what they are known for. I wanted Monster Bash VGA with

Geez. Like I mentioned before, Apogee's last TEN games were VGA. Yet what
they get for doing so from folks like you is "Graphics and sound to not a
game make."

And incidentally, a VGA version of Monster Bash is scheduled to be released
soon.

>Why not offer stuff that others do not, Super VGA
>(640x480) and (800x600) modes with 32,768 colors/16.7 million colors/Network
>support/Modem support, animation like flc files and digitized graphics and
>animation, phong or gaurad (spelling) shading, offer more to do then just
>simple run and jump, be creative and have stuff that you can interact with
>stuff and stuff can interact with you, multiple paralaxing screen layers, math

Actually, some of Apogee's old EGA platformers are much more creative in
this respect than Epic's Jazz Jackrabbit. Not that I have anything against
Jazz -- I love it, myself. Still, it has flaws, such as enemies that do
nothing but move around.

>deliver on time with no delays, when they say its going to be out in October,
>it better be out in October!

Apogee's last delay was Raptor, which was delayed a month. Id's last delay
is a working version of Doom, due for several months and still not out.
Epic's last delays were Jazz Jackrabbit, due last February; Epic Baseball,
also due last February; and One Must Fall, due last summer.

Apogee's latest track record has been near perfect with regard to meeting
release dates.

Jay Iscariot

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Aug 26, 1994, 3:16:01 AM8/26/94
to
The Rink <s...@kepler.unh.edu> writes:

>Especially when their last ten or so games have had SB/Adlib sounds and
>VGA graphics. The last 3 or 4 have had native support for 8+ sound cards.
>In the last five games, only two were platformers, one of which (Hocus)
>was admittedly bad, the other of which (Duke II) was quite good.

Which is again besides the point. Notice that the last ten games were all
(with a few exceptions) PLATFORM games, from the "Commander Keen was cool
so maybe it will work another eighty times) school of thought. And Apogee
does make fun games (mostly), don't get me wrong. But they have that "been
there, done that" kinda quality to them now. Wolf3D was basically a bolt from
the
blue, which immediately spawned dozens of ripoffs and improvements (the Street
Fighter 2 syndrome). Apogee should publish more completely new games. Or at
least, if treading familiar waters, please make the game so unique that it
blows all the others in the genre away (the Doom phenomena). But then, as I've
already stated, what do I know?
--
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>========================================}
> JAY ISCARIOT > "They say 'Knowledge is Power.' }
< (n...@delphi.com) < I used to think so." }
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< }
{ - Lord Byron }
{__________________________________________}

Mark A. Rein

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Aug 26, 1994, 5:10:05 AM8/26/94
to
>Well, I for one remember Joe also poking jibes at Epic. And it seemed to
>be in the spirit of friendly rivalry than mean-spirited attacks.

My "we're gonna kick your butt" comment was never meant in a mean-spirited
way. It was friendly taunting and nothing more. Unfortunately I think
I forget a grin or two. I learned my lesson about making statements
that way on the net. If you're joking about something make it terribly
obvious!

>Also I mustt include that I have personally been *banned* from all
>Intelec conferences after a disagreement with Joe Siegler on a number of
>your policies (on which you have since changed). It seems that Intelec is
>another 'net' that like to control opinions so you and swcbbs should feel
>at home with it.

I don't think that's Joe's fault. The Intellec moderators seem like
a pretty wound-up bunch. They need to relax a little more. If you sneeze
in the wrong direction they'll kick you off Intellec. It's really
stupid.


Mark Rein, Epic MegaGames.

Mark A. Rein

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Aug 26, 1994, 5:13:38 AM8/26/94
to
What are you talking about? Apogee is cool. They've got some awesome
games in the works. Games that I'm sure you're going to love playing.

I hate this rivalry baloney because it forgets the important thing and
that's COOL GAMES. We've got some - they've got some. We've got a few
in the works, they've got a bundle in the works. 1995 is going to be
a good year for shareware game fans!


Mark Rein, Epic MegaGames.

Jack Roberts

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Aug 26, 1994, 10:47:21 AM8/26/94
to
s...@kepler.unh.edu (The Rink) writes:
> dates Apogee has never dared. And last, but not least, Kroz is way cooler
> than ZZT.

no way! ZZT is much better than Kroz.

Greg Spath

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Aug 26, 1994, 7:41:48 AM8/26/94
to
In article <33dh0j$3...@bmerha64.bnr.ca>, hsi...@bnr.ca (Eric Hsiao) says:
>
>
>ID SUX is simple name-calling by the graphics person who did Dare to Dream,
>while other companies tend to be more creative in their bashing of
>competitors. For example, Origin in Ultima VII in creating the three evil
>shapes representing the Electronic Arts symbols that must be destroyed.
>The Apogee (Apology) key in Jazz was pretty creative. Accolade's Les Manley:
>In Search for the King often printed out a message like, "This isn't one of
>those half-domed adventure games...blah blah", in reference to the mountain
>in Sierra's logo. Or Sierra's Space Quest III calling the bad guys SCUMSOFT,
>in reference to LucasArts' SCUMM game engine used in Maniac Mansion, Zak
>McCraken, etc. So in summary, one can be pretty creative in competitor
>bashing or just use straight forward name-calling... if any bashing should
>occur, I definitely prefer the former method over the latter.

Don't forget about id making fun of "jill of the jungle" in Commander
Keen -- In the instructions, something about kicking jill's but if
he ever sees her again :)

Bruce Rice

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Aug 25, 1994, 11:39:46 AM8/25/94
to
<snip-snip>

>I hardly see my message I left in an Apogee forum as Epic bashing. Tim
>admitted that the Apogee code in Jazz was for beta testing only and
>accidently slipped out. We dropped it after that. Stuff happens :)
>George Broussard
>Apogee

Explanation ACCEPTED! Now, back to work. (Crack! <whip>)
Actually, I like the little hidden remarks in the games. They are a cute part
of games that make players feel the programmers have a sense of humor.
I can't help but think the company who is the butt of the joke even enjoys it
a little bit too, it's always nice to get a little FREE advertising.

Pssst.... Can we move on now gang, and drop this garbage? There are Doom wads
to review and we're wasting time!

C-Ya'
Bruce R.

Jay Iscariot

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Aug 26, 1994, 8:24:58 PM8/26/94
to
William Turner <wtu...@acorn.co.uk> writes:

>You didn't see everyone get all het up about the
>SPISPOPD code in Doom....

Because IDSPISPOPD doesn't turn Doom into a two dimensional game on a par
with Hanman. It in no way insults SPISPOPD, or Jamul Software. (See below)


>Anyway, to be mentioned in a rival companies
>product is an honour, it shows they regard you as
>true competition...

Or else true losers. Take your pick. :)

P.S. I am in no way attempting to insult SPISPOPD, Jamul Software, Hangman, or
Wayne Newton. Please do not feed steel wool to my pet llamas. Thanks! :)
--
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>========================================}
> JAY > "And many cattle." }
: "Evil Bouapha" : - the Book of Spoons, }
: ISCARIOT : (another testament of the word of }
< (n...@delphi.com) < God) The Book of Heretics, (3:5) }
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<{----------------------------------------}

John E. Nickerson

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Aug 27, 1994, 5:30:16 PM8/27/94
to
In article <94238.074...@psuvm.psu.edu>,

Don't forget the Jill bashing in Monster Bash.(If it's that jungle
Jill girl down the street I'll...)
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just Pretend that the wittiest signature you've ever seen is in this space
Ni...@Ra.MsState.Edu (James)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lawrence Smith

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Aug 28, 1994, 3:11:49 AM8/28/94
to
So whose fault was all this, Epic or Apogee, It's Seems that apogee has a
lot things wrong or such that a lot of people dislke, does this mean
anything, instead of trying to cover everything up(It seems it is already
to late for that) it should attempt to figure out why so many people are
pi$$ed. I liked those stupid 16 color games, but sure they DID get very
old, At least Epic kept up and put out good if not great VGa games(Jazz)...

I've said my 2 cents...

Lawrence Smith
===============
"Ender's Game, The Greatest Game in the universe!"

Lawrence Smith

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Aug 28, 1994, 3:41:40 AM8/28/94
to
I have To also wonder how a couple of posts could get really out off hand..
Can't we all just get along? -Riped from tv show.... =)

Lawrence

Joe Siegler

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Aug 28, 1994, 2:31:00 AM8/28/94
to
NU>>Don't forget about id making fun of "jill of the jungle" in Commander
NU>>Keen -- In the instructions, something about kicking jill's but if
NU>>he ever sees her again :)

NU> Don't forget the Jill bashing in Monster Bash.(If it's that jungle
NU>Jill girl down the street I'll...)

Just to set the record straight here, this "kicking butt" comment was
in Monster Bash. There was no such comment in any Commander Keen
episode.

Joe Siegler - Apogee Software

---
* 1st v2.0b/TLX v4 * Hocus Pocus * Blink and you may miss something!

Shawn Green

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Aug 28, 1994, 4:34:02 PM8/28/94
to
:Don't forget about id making fun of "jill of the jungle" in

:Commander Keen -- In the instructions, something about kicking

:jill's but if he ever sees her again :)

The comment you are referring to was made in the game Monster
Bash fm Apogee, not id.

---
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Shawn Green (sha...@idsoftware.com) id Software |
| Send questions about id software to he...@idsoftware.com |
| FTP.UWP.EDU[131.210.1.4] id "Official" anonymous FTP site |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+


Dave Barney

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Aug 28, 1994, 8:33:24 PM8/28/94
to
Shawn Green (sha...@idcube.idsoftware.com) wrote:

> The comment you are referring to was made in the game Monster
> Bash fm Apogee, not id.

> ---
> +-------------------------------------------------------------------+
> | Shawn Green (sha...@idsoftware.com) id Software |
> | Send questions about id software to he...@idsoftware.com |
> | FTP.UWP.EDU[131.210.1.4] id "Official" anonymous FTP site |
> +-------------------------------------------------------------------+

*****************************************************************************

Shawn, how did you guy's manage to stay out of this flame war anyway <G>

I heard something about the ID guy's whooping it up with the Epic guy's
at that awards thing a couple a weeks ago :):):)

any left over water baloons????

ID gets my vote for sense of humor of the year :):):):)

Dave

Cliff Bleszinski

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Aug 26, 1994, 8:25:00 PM8/26/94
to
SS>>platform ONLY games is what they are known for. I wanted Monster Bash VGA
SS>with
SS>Geez. Like I mentioned before, Apogee's last TEN games were VGA. Yet what
SS>they get for doing so from folks like you is "Graphics and sound to not a
SS>game make."

They don't. I'll take Duke Nukem 2 over a game like Hocus Pocus any day
of the week.

SS>Actually, some of Apogee's old EGA platformers are much more creative in
SS>this respect than Epic's Jazz Jackrabbit. Not that I have anything against

What, in the fact that they copied more groovy ideas from console games
than Jazz? That they had more of those glorious "find the
key/animal/treasure before you can exit the level" puzzles? Jazz is like
Doom- it has enough cool stuff in it and it knew when to stop. Sure,
everyone says "Jazz could have had *this* in it... and this..." but what
makes the game so good is the simplicity.

If we didn't stop adding neat things, you wouldn't be playing the game
now. It'd still be in development.

SS>Epic's last delays were Jazz Jackrabbit, due last February; Epic Baseball,

We never set a public release date for Jazz Jackrabbit other than August
1st which was met. The other dates given were guesses and speculations.

Cliff Bleszinski- Designer of Jazz
---
* SLMR 2.1a *

Rylan Hilman

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Aug 30, 1994, 12:44:22 AM8/30/94
to