Looking Glass Studios shuts down
The All Powerful and All Knowing Oz!
indeed.
http://www.avault.com/news/displaynews.asp?story=5242000-161711
Thurein
: Avault is reporting that LGS will close down tomorrow. Tis a sad day,
: indeed.
: http://www.avault.com/news/displaynews.asp?story=5242000-161711
Dammit! Nooo!!
This truly IS a sad day. :(
-Thurein
Harvester
Oz!" <jonathanclement@_nospam_mindspring.com> wrote:
>Avault is reporting that LGS will close down tomorrow. Tis a sad day,
>indeed.
>
>http://www.avault.com/news/displaynews.asp?story=5242000-161711
crap, this sucks..
Christopher D. Johnson
The All Powerful and All Knowing Oz!
news:8ghk5d$f13$1...@slb0.atl.mindspring.net...
> Avault is reporting that LGS will close down tomorrow. Tis a sad day,
> indeed.
>
> http://www.avault.com/news/displaynews.asp?story=5242000-161711
>
>
I never thought I'd say this, but I may be giving up computer gaming as a
hobby in the not too distant future. I've been a hardcore gamer for 14
years, but what a year it has been. My love have been games that require
real thinking - be it simulations, wargames, or good action games with depth
like Thief or System Shock.
Just this year - Microprose is gutted by Hasbro and the entire Falcon 4.0
team laid off. Then they release that piece of crap Gunship! and cancel
Tank Platoon. Talonsoft exits the wargame arena and turns to 3-D RTS with
titles like "War Monkeys." Then the maker of the deepest FPS ever seen,
Looking Glass Studios, closes its doors afterEidos blows $26 million on
Daikatania.
The irony is that I've played some of the best games ever over the past year
(Planescape:Torment, Unreal Tournament, Thief II, Rogue Spear, MiG Alley),
but now I'm rather depressed about the future of this hobby.
Does anyone else find it a bad omen that Looking Glass Studios dies the same
day that Panty Raider is released? Doesn't anyone care about rich,
challenging games that require an IQ higher than an icecube?
Chris Johnson
Evil Avatar
>On Wed, 24 May 2000 15:12:07 -0700, "The All Powerful and All Knowing
>Oz!" <jonathanclement@_nospam_mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>>Avault is reporting that LGS will close down tomorrow. Tis a sad day,
>>indeed.
>>
>>http://www.avault.com/news/displaynews.asp?story=5242000-161711
>
Blame John Romero for wasting some $26 Million of Eidos Interactive's money on
his Daikatana abortion.
-=Evil=-
---
Evil Avatar
Daily Gaming News with Attitude
http://www.evilavatar.com
Daily News, Reviews, Screenshots and more.
Cutting Edge Gaming News and Opinion.
David Long
Evil Avatar <evila...@evilavatar.com> wrote in message
news:sioo5q...@corp.supernews.com...
> Blame John Romero for wasting some $26 Million of Eidos Interactive's
money on
> his Daikatana abortion.
This has nothing to do with John Romero. Just because Eidos can't pay
Looking Glass' bills doesn't mean Daikatana and John Romero are to blame.
The semi-hit game has come too late to save them.
Everyone ignored Looking Glass games for years until Thief and their sales
always were marginal at best. They've never gotten the commercial hit they
should have and it's a sad day to hear them closing. However, Romero is no
more to blame than Eidos for a wholly owned development house shutting down.
Who knows, maybe they didn't have anyone doing a good job managing their
money?
Blame the consumers who ignored their games for so many years. They're the
real culprits.
--
Dave Long
o...@gamestats.com
One Gamer's Voice
Industry Opinions and Game Impressions
http://ogv.gamestats.com/
Jay-J.
> indeed.
Jesus...
Who the hell's closing down next, for God's sake !?!
--
****
"They say I'm lazy
but it takes all my time."
-- Joe Walsh
JMR
"The All Powerful and All Knowing Oz!"
<jonathanclement@_nospam_mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:8ghk5d$f13$1...@slb0.atl.mindspring.net...
> Avault is reporting that LGS will close down tomorrow. Tis a sad day,
> indeed.
>
> http://www.avault.com/news/displaynews.asp?story=5242000-161711
>
>
The All Powerful and All Knowing Oz!
games like Panty Raider and the oncoming console systems. Why? Because
seemingly out of nowhere a small, dedicated team can still make an
innovative computer game. Witness Front Office Football- a one man
operation. Incidentally I had stopped playing it since the football season
until today I fired it up on a whim and two hours later I looked at the
clock. Remember Doom blew up the industry way back when. I think another
game will rock our worlds like that in the future.
You know what they say...It is darkest before the dawn. Or something like
that.
Christopher D. Johnson <joh...@attglobal.net> wrote in message
news:392c6...@news1.prserv.net...
Martin Keene (LIS)
it. And I had just started playing Shock2 again because the other
recent games just didn't do it for me. I don't think that LG will
ever be surpassed. The "intelligent" shooter genre has just died.
Jeff Jones
> hobby in the not too distant future. I've been a hardcore gamer for 14
> years, but what a year it has been. My love have been games that require
> real thinking - be it simulations, wargames, or good action games with
depth
> like Thief or System Shock.
>
> Just this year - Microprose is gutted by Hasbro and the entire Falcon 4.0
> team laid off. Then they release that piece of crap Gunship! and cancel
> Tank Platoon. Talonsoft exits the wargame arena and turns to 3-D RTS with
> titles like "War Monkeys." Then the maker of the deepest FPS ever seen,
> Looking Glass Studios, closes its doors afterEidos blows $26 million on
> Daikatania.
>
> The irony is that I've played some of the best games ever over the past
year
> (Planescape:Torment, Unreal Tournament, Thief II, Rogue Spear, MiG Alley),
> but now I'm rather depressed about the future of this hobby.
>
> Does anyone else find it a bad omen that Looking Glass Studios dies the
same
> day that Panty Raider is released? Doesn't anyone care about rich,
> challenging games that require an IQ higher than an icecube?
Man, this is depressing indeed. Add to it that 3DFX's incompetancy has
delayed the release of the Voodoo 5 boards .. AGAIN. One of PC gaming's top
designers Peter Molyneux calls it quits (for PC's) and will only make
console titles in the future.
Looking at the Eidos/Looking Glass situation, I can't help but be sickened
by it. Ion Storm lives, and LG dies. What's wrong with this picture?
PC Gaming may be starting down to drift off into the sunset. It's definitely
changing before our eyes, and it doesn't appear to be for the better. Even
the traffic in these groups is dieing off.
At least I've got a pile of unplayed games that I can dig into and finish.
<sigh>
sjconro
http://www.shugashack.com/reply.y?id=197218
Ion Storm didn't force Eidos to bail them out at gunpoint, right? It
was their own stupidity. If Daikatana sells well, they are vindicated,
in a business sense. If this truly is a cause and effect thing, Romero
may really deserve to be despised in this industry.
Harvester wrote:
On Wed, 24 May 2000 15:12:07 -0700, "The All Powerful and All Knowing
Oz!" <jonathanclement@_nospam_mindspring.com> wrote:
>Avault is reporting that LGS will close down tomorrow. Tis a sad day,
>indeed.
>
>http://www.avault.com/news/displaynews.asp?story=5242000-161711
crap, this sucks..
--
-----------------------------------------------------
Click here for Free Video!!
http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/
sjconro
Tim Sweeney
Developer
posted 5/24/00 7:06:45 PM
This isn't a sad day, it's an economically
realistic day. Looking Glass spent lots of money making innovative games
that never sold
well.
A really cool guy I know who used to work at
Looking Glass had some insight into this: the company slogan may well
have been "By
MIT Grads, For MIT Grads". Think about that.
Most of the stuff they did was way out of the realm of what most
mainstream gamers
wanted.
Being a niche company and making good,
unusual styles of games is cool, but you have to be lean-and-mean in
order to do that
successfully. Pop Top (Railroad Tycoon) is a
great example of success in a small genre.
But you can't be a niche company and have the
kind of huge overhead and expenses that Looking Glass had.
Right now, an ugly shakeout has begun in the
industry. Look at the stock market crash in shares of Activision,
EA--that's Electronic
Arts not Evil Avatar :), Activision, Acclaim,
GT, and Eidos. These guys no longer have the resources to fund the
financial losers.
Projects and teams that are not producing
profitable games are being axed. Origin's projects (minus UO) and
Looking Glass are only
the beginning. Some of the companies and
teams that will take the axe damn well deserve it, and others are
unfortuntely made up of
really good guys who just haven't had the
good fortune of producing hits.
This is the bit where the comet hits the
earth and the dinosaurs die, but the way is cleared for cooler life
forms to evolve.
-Tim
Can anybody recommend a good book about stamp collecting?
Paul Angstrom
<8ghk5d$f13$1...@slb0.atl.mindspring.net>:
>Avault is reporting that LGS will close down tomorrow. Tis a sad day,
>indeed.
>
>http://www.avault.com/news/displaynews.asp?story=5242000-161711
Argh! That means the likelihood of there ever being a System Shock 3 or
a Thief 3 is very slim indeed.
Furthermore, even if someone were to buy the rights and make a sequel,
it would probably be warped by "the suits" and dumbed-down into some
Tomb Raider styled garbage to appeal to the masses.
Look at what Activision did to Interstate '82 with their decision to
make the game more accessible to the masses. They dumbed-down the
driving model and took away all the customizable complexity that made
Interstate '76 such a joy.
I fear we are entering the twilight of the intelligent FPS.
Destroy
Ryan Franklin
>> indeed.
What I'm most curious about is who gets (or keeps) the rights to Thief.
I mean, Looking Glass had already signed on with Eidos to do Thief 2 Gold
and Thief 3, right? Presumably that agreement wasdissolved along with
LGS--but _damn_, it seems like _someone_ should be able to get these
talented people together again in the future and keep it going.
(Hey, does Irrational Games have rights to do System Shock 3?)
--
origin died before they killed it; looking glass was snuffed in its prime
ry...@cobweb.scarymonsters.net
Christopher D. Johnson
> skyrocketing..and while not all games need to spend 4 years in production
> and cost 26 million dollars, even the average "innovative" game requires a
> hefty budget. Sadly, only about 10% of games ever make a profit, so if
you
> aren't able to appeal to the masses with cheap, brand-name items (Who
Wants
> to Be a Millionaire, Deer Hunter), you run the risk of losing money, and
> ultimately losing your business.
>
> I have a feeling though that this is about to change. As the Internet
> becomes more integral to daily life, more and more people are buying
> PC's...this will not change when the PS2 or the X-Box comes out, despite
> what Sony wants you to think. In the last 4 years, the gaming industry
has
> been growing exponentially. This is not a coincidence. And the more
people
> buy PCs, the more they will buy PC games. And while consoles provide a
> great quick and fun experience, more and more people are beginning to
> discover the deep gameplay of truly innovative PC games...an experience
that
> consoles don't provide now and will not likely provide for some time.
I hope that you're right. I'm just confused right now. As I said earlier,
the actual * gameplay* of titles over the past year has simply been
outstanding. Yes we all remember the good old days of Civilization, DOOM,
Wing Commander (OK, I thought it wasn't all that great even back then),
X-Wing, Jedi Knight. But the truth is that there hasn't been this many good
games at one time as far back as I can remember. I still have yet to tackle
SWAT 3, Freespace II, Grim Fandango or Homeworld -- all games on my "to-do"
list at some point. So things look great for right now.
But I look off in the future, and I've never seen the combination of storm
clouds we're seeing right now. Any one piece of news can be shrugged off.
It's the combination that's got me worried --> the sim industry effectively
dying as a mainstream hobby, the E3 where many PC designers were lamenting
that's its simply not cost-effective to develop for the PC anymore, the
death of Looking Glass, Mattel's attempts to jettison SSI, Hasbro butchering
Microprose, Peter Molyneaux leaving PCs, Brian Reynolds stating that he just
can't make something as sophisticated as Alpha Centauri anymore for the PC
market.
I too am willing to believe that we're seeing one of those "console cycles"
that will shake out in a year or two. But the underlying PC industry
doesn't look very healthy for when the console tide recedes. The fact that
consumers out there are still snapping up Deer Hunter X and Who Wants to be
a Millionaire, while Panty Raider makes national news ... as someone else
said, I just hope that this is the dark before the dawn.
Chris Johnson
Jungleland
>
> indeed.
>
Ahhh, what a goddamn shame. Looking Glass has produced the games that
are in my top 10. Hell, System Shock is my favorite game of all time.
Thief and Thief 2, System Shock 2, all personal favorites. And don't
forget Terra Nova, another fine example of a thinking man's game. I
mean, holy shit, they did Ultima Underworld 1 and 2, masterpieces both
of them, years ahead of their time.
I will never forget the legacy of code these master designers have
left us. Their work is a shining example of what can be achieved with
imagination and the guts to
try something original. Thank you Looking Glass, for some of the most
enjoyable
moments in my gaming life.
Good luck in all your ventures guys, you've earned it...:)
Sincerely,
Richard "Dickie" Payne
VFX Supervisor,
Station X Entertainment
Avid gamer for 20 years, and I have the Carpal Tunnel to prove it...;)
--
~Et in Arcadia ego..tonight in Jungleland~
Martin Keene (LIS)
Ultima Underworld, and Thief. Now at Ion Storm. Scary, isn't it?
On 25 May 2000, Tom Paris wrote:
> Far from it. Don't forget "Deus Ex".
>
> In article <Pine.GSO.4.21.000524...@luna.cas.usf.edu>,
> mke...@luna.cas.usf.edu says...
> >
> > I guess that people just don't know a good thing until they lose
> > it. And I had just started playing Shock2 again because the other
> > recent games just didn't do it for me. I don't think that LG will
> > ever be surpassed. The "intelligent" shooter genre has just died.
> >
Matthew Hall
> Avault is reporting that LGS will close down tomorrow. Tis a sad day,
> indeed.
>
> http://www.avault.com/news/displaynews.asp?story=5242000-161711
AHHHHHH NOOOOOO!!!
Now I won't be able to play Thief III!!
Who "owns" the current Thief codebase? Could it theoretically be
resurrected by some company/team in the future?
This is awful. System Shock 2 and Thief II were top-notch
games.
>Tim Sweeney
>Developer
> posted 5/24/00 7:06:45 PM
>
>This isn't a sad day, it's an economically realistic day. Looking Glass spent
>lots of money making innovative games that never sold well.
>
>A really cool guy I know who used to work at Looking Glass had some insight
>into this: the company slogan may well have been "By MIT Grads, For MIT Grads".
>Think about that. Most of the stuff they did was way out of the realm of what
>most mainstream gamers wanted.
Hey Tim. Bite me. Go make your carbon-copy games that appeal to the
least
common denominator. March in step with all the other FPS drones, and
follow
the cutting edge that game houses like Looking Glass pave for you.
Sheesh.
Slash
<joh...@attglobal.net> scribbled:
>I hope that you're right. I'm just confused right now. As I said earlier,
>the actual * gameplay* of titles over the past year has simply been
>outstanding. Yes we all remember the good old days of Civilization, DOOM,
>Wing Commander (OK, I thought it wasn't all that great even back then),
>X-Wing, Jedi Knight. But the truth is that there hasn't been this many good
>games at one time as far back as I can remember. I still have yet to tackle
>SWAT 3, Freespace II, Grim Fandango or Homeworld -- all games on my "to-do"
>list at some point. So things look great for right now.
>
>But I look off in the future, and I've never seen the combination of storm
>clouds we're seeing right now. Any one piece of news can be shrugged off.
>It's the combination that's got me worried --> the sim industry effectively
>dying as a mainstream hobby, the E3 where many PC designers were lamenting
>that's its simply not cost-effective to develop for the PC anymore, the
>death of Looking Glass, Mattel's attempts to jettison SSI, Hasbro butchering
>Microprose, Peter Molyneaux leaving PCs, Brian Reynolds stating that he just
>can't make something as sophisticated as Alpha Centauri anymore for the PC
>market.
Well, at least there's renewed hope from the Peter Molyneaux side. A
clarification reportedly stated that there will be future PC titles,
but they'll be released (and possibly developed for) console systems
first.
>I too am willing to believe that we're seeing one of those "console cycles"
>that will shake out in a year or two. But the underlying PC industry
>doesn't look very healthy for when the console tide recedes. The fact that
>consumers out there are still snapping up Deer Hunter X and Who Wants to be
>a Millionaire, while Panty Raider makes national news ... as someone else
>said, I just hope that this is the dark before the dawn.
>
>Chris Johnson
-Slash
"The people on the internet know more about what I am doing than I do.
Like, they will say that I am going to be in this mall on this day and
sure enough I am there."
- Tori Amos, Dew Drop Inn Tour, 17-June-1996
Slash
<mke...@luna.cas.usf.edu> scribbled:
> I guess that people just don't know a good thing until they lose
> it. And I had just started playing Shock2 again because the other
> recent games just didn't do it for me. I don't think that LG will
> ever be surpassed. The "intelligent" shooter genre has just died.
Here's to hoping that Deus Ex ends up being playable...
Novanus
Oz!" <jonathanclement@_nospam_mindspring.com> wrote:
>Avault is reporting that LGS will close down tomorrow. Tis a sad day,
>indeed.
>
>http://www.avault.com/news/displaynews.asp?story=5242000-161711
Unbelievable. Why isn't the date April 1st? <sigh>
---
Novanus
Starkenfast
E3, I can testify to the truth of this), and despite the fact that "Top Ten"
selling game lists often don't reflect what many hardcore gamers would like
to see, PC gaming is still alive and well.
Yes, the fact that a company like Looking Glass has died IS a tragedy.
Often times you hear all these game review sites say things like, "It's nice
to see a company like LGS 'take chances' and 'go against the grain'." We've
heard things like this for so long that we forget that this isn't
meaningless praise...it's a realistic danger.
As games continue to get more complex, production values are
skyrocketing..and while not all games need to spend 4 years in production
and cost 26 million dollars, even the average "innovative" game requires a
hefty budget. Sadly, only about 10% of games ever make a profit, so if you
aren't able to appeal to the masses with cheap, brand-name items (Who Wants
to Be a Millionaire, Deer Hunter), you run the risk of losing money, and
ultimately losing your business.
I have a feeling though that this is about to change. As the Internet
becomes more integral to daily life, more and more people are buying
PC's...this will not change when the PS2 or the X-Box comes out, despite
what Sony wants you to think. In the last 4 years, the gaming industry has
been growing exponentially. This is not a coincidence. And the more people
buy PCs, the more they will buy PC games. And while consoles provide a
great quick and fun experience, more and more people are beginning to
discover the deep gameplay of truly innovative PC games...an experience that
consoles don't provide now and will not likely provide for some time.
Remember too, for each LGS that dies, another 5 PC developing studios rise
in their place. And yes, some will produce budgetware crap, but others will
prove to be just as innovative and energetic. Small new studios of today
like Cyberlore and WXP, that many have not even heard of, may well turn out
to be the Bungies and Blizzards of tomorrow.
Another point...LGS was not bombed. The creators of these fine products are
not dead. Those talented employees will quickly be snatched up by companies
who aren't having financial problems, and will plant new seeds of creativity
where they might be desperately needed.
All I'm saying is, yes...this industry is going to experience some
changes...and because it's so volatile...things like LGS closing will happen
unexpectedly. But as long as PCs remain the leaders in multimedia
technology (the XBox to be released in a year will feature a processor
weaker than the best available now for PC), the innovative developers, who's
visions can only be realized on the cutting edge, will stay.
J
Christopher D. Johnson wrote in message <392c6...@news1.prserv.net>...
>
>The All Powerful and All Knowing Oz!
><jonathanclement@_nospam_mindspring.com> wrote in message
>news:8ghk5d$f13$1...@slb0.atl.mindspring.net...
>> Avault is reporting that LGS will close down tomorrow. Tis a sad day,
>> indeed.
>>
>> http://www.avault.com/news/displaynews.asp?story=5242000-161711
>>
>>
>
>I never thought I'd say this, but I may be giving up computer gaming as a
>hobby in the not too distant future. I've been a hardcore gamer for 14
>years, but what a year it has been. My love have been games that require
>real thinking - be it simulations, wargames, or good action games with
depth
>like Thief or System Shock.
>
>Just this year - Microprose is gutted by Hasbro and the entire Falcon 4.0
>team laid off. Then they release that piece of crap Gunship! and cancel
>Tank Platoon. Talonsoft exits the wargame arena and turns to 3-D RTS with
>titles like "War Monkeys." Then the maker of the deepest FPS ever seen,
>Looking Glass Studios, closes its doors afterEidos blows $26 million on
>Daikatania.
>
>The irony is that I've played some of the best games ever over the past
year
>(Planescape:Torment, Unreal Tournament, Thief II, Rogue Spear, MiG Alley),
>but now I'm rather depressed about the future of this hobby.
>
>Does anyone else find it a bad omen that Looking Glass Studios dies the
same
>day that Panty Raider is released? Doesn't anyone care about rich,
>challenging games that require an IQ higher than an icecube?
>
>Chris Johnson
>
>
>
Evil Avatar
Might as well embrace it, I think that is where we are headed anyway.
-=Evil=-
In article <392C7761...@velocityhsi.com>, sjconro
<sjc...@velocityhsi.com> wrote:
>And now this reality check from Tim Sweeny:
>
>
>
> Tim Sweeney
> Developer
> posted 5/24/00 7:06:45 PM
>
> This isn't a sad day, it's an economically
>realistic day. Looking Glass spent lots of money making innovative games
>that never sold
> well.
>
> A really cool guy I know who used to work at
>Looking Glass had some insight into this: the company slogan may well
>have been "By
> MIT Grads, For MIT Grads". Think about that.
>Most of the stuff they did was way out of the realm of what most
>mainstream gamers
> wanted.
>
>>> On Wed, 24 May 2000 15:12:07 -0700, "The All Powerful and All
>>> Knowing
>>> Oz!" <jonathanclement@_nospam_mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> >Avault is reporting that LGS will close down tomorrow. Tis a sad
>>> day,
>>> >indeed.
>>> >
>>> >http://www.avault.com/news/displaynews.asp?story=5242000-161711
>>>
>>> crap, this sucks
Secret Squirrel
>Man oh man! Why couldn't it have been Ion Storm? :{
It could very well BE Ion Storm next.
A little bird told me that LG was going to be sold to Eidos, but Eidos
backed out of the deal at the last minute because they felt they
didn't have enough money to do the deal.
If that's true, then Ion Storm might be the next to shut down because
Eidos could make some cutbacks if they are that strapped for cash that
they couldn't buy a company like LG which is full of talented people
and which has proven themselves capable of making good games.
Yi Jin-Hoh [Albert]
inscribed:
>On Wed, 24 May 2000 15:12:07 -0700, "The All Powerful and All Knowing
>Oz!" <jonathanclement@_nospam_mindspring.com> wrote in message
><8ghk5d$f13$1...@slb0.atl.mindspring.net>:
>
>>Avault is reporting that LGS will close down tomorrow. Tis a sad day,
>>indeed.
>>
>>http://www.avault.com/news/displaynews.asp?story=5242000-161711
>
>Argh! That means the likelihood of there ever being a System Shock 3 or
>a Thief 3 is very slim indeed.
Well, doesn't stop other companies from making "clones". I know Picassio,
which is a stealth\theft game like Thief, is nearing completion. Valve is
still alive, and Bungie is posed to shake the community with Halo and Oni.
--
Yi Jin-Hoh (Albert)
"Why isn't the skeptic skeptical of his own skepticism?"
-- Self
Trent
>
> http://dreamcast.ign.com
>
> Might as well embrace it, I think that is where we are headed anyway.
>
> -=Evil=-
Maybe we should be. There are some damn good games coming out for the
consoles. Tony Hawk Pro Skater (Dreamcast), Perfect Dark (N64), Vagrant
Story (PSX), ExciteBike64 (N64)...all triple AAA titles and those were
all released within the last 2 WEEKS. (OK, granted they are across 3
different systems, but still..). I never ceases to amaze me how much
system bias blinds some people (I'm not accusing you, EA, I'm just
speaking generally). I think Eidos should have ported Thief and Thief 2
over the the Dreamcast. It would have done great on that system.
Tom Paris
jonathanclement@_nospam_mindspring.com says...
>
>Avault is reporting that LGS will close down tomorrow. Tis a sad day,
>indeed.
>
>http://www.avault.com/news/displaynews.asp?story=5242000-161711
>
>
And those morons buying "Deer Hunter" will not shed a tear.
Tom Paris
In article <Pine.GSO.4.21.000524...@luna.cas.usf.edu>,
mke...@luna.cas.usf.edu says...
>
> I guess that people just don't know a good thing until they lose
> it. And I had just started playing Shock2 again because the other
> recent games just didn't do it for me. I don't think that LG will
> ever be surpassed. The "intelligent" shooter genre has just died.
>
M. de Mare
> > As games continue to get more complex, production values are
> > skyrocketing..and while not all games need to spend 4 years in
production
> > and cost 26 million dollars, even the average "innovative" game requires
a
> > hefty budget. Sadly, only about 10% of games ever make a profit, so if
> you
> > aren't able to appeal to the masses with cheap, brand-name items (Who
> Wants
> > to Be a Millionaire, Deer Hunter), you run the risk of losing money, and
> > ultimately losing your business.
> >
> > I have a feeling though that this is about to change. As the Internet
> > becomes more integral to daily life, more and more people are buying
> > PC's...this will not change when the PS2 or the X-Box comes out, despite
> > what Sony wants you to think. In the last 4 years, the gaming industry
> has
> > been growing exponentially. This is not a coincidence. And the more
> people
> > buy PCs, the more they will buy PC games. And while consoles provide a
> > great quick and fun experience, more and more people are beginning to
> > discover the deep gameplay of truly innovative PC games...an experience
> that
> > consoles don't provide now and will not likely provide for some time.
>
earlier,
> the actual * gameplay* of titles over the past year has simply been
> outstanding. Yes we all remember the good old days of Civilization, DOOM,
> Wing Commander (OK, I thought it wasn't all that great even back then),
> X-Wing, Jedi Knight. But the truth is that there hasn't been this many
good
> games at one time as far back as I can remember. I still have yet to
tackle
> SWAT 3, Freespace II, Grim Fandango or Homeworld -- all games on my
"to-do"
> list at some point. So things look great for right now.
>
> But I look off in the future, and I've never seen the combination of storm
> clouds we're seeing right now. Any one piece of news can be shrugged off.
> It's the combination that's got me worried --> the sim industry
effectively
> dying as a mainstream hobby, the E3 where many PC designers were lamenting
> that's its simply not cost-effective to develop for the PC anymore, the
> death of Looking Glass, Mattel's attempts to jettison SSI, Hasbro
butchering
> Microprose, Peter Molyneaux leaving PCs, Brian Reynolds stating that he
just
> can't make something as sophisticated as Alpha Centauri anymore for the PC
> market.
Do you have a link to where Brian Reynolds said that, or wasn't it an online
interview?
Grunion
Evil Avatar wrote in message ...
Nah, were heading towards the Counterstrike/Quake mod/WWIIonline model,
where you buy and register only your base software for online play.
Platform hardware will always be niche kiddy stuff because of it's
inflexibility.
-G
LordHaHa
wrote:
>> I never thought I'd say this, but I may be giving up computer gaming as a
>> hobby in the not too distant future. I've been a hardcore gamer for 14
>> years, but what a year it has been. My love have been games that require
>> real thinking - be it simulations, wargames, or good action games with
>depth
>> like Thief or System Shock.
>>
>> Just this year - Microprose is gutted by Hasbro and the entire Falcon 4.0
>> team laid off. Then they release that piece of crap Gunship! and cancel
>> Tank Platoon. Talonsoft exits the wargame arena and turns to 3-D RTS with
>> titles like "War Monkeys." Then the maker of the deepest FPS ever seen,
>> Looking Glass Studios, closes its doors afterEidos blows $26 million on
>> Daikatania.
>>
>> The irony is that I've played some of the best games ever over the past
>year
>> (Planescape:Torment, Unreal Tournament, Thief II, Rogue Spear, MiG Alley),
>> but now I'm rather depressed about the future of this hobby.
>>
>> Does anyone else find it a bad omen that Looking Glass Studios dies the
>same
>> day that Panty Raider is released? Doesn't anyone care about rich,
>> challenging games that require an IQ higher than an icecube?
>
>Man, this is depressing indeed. Add to it that 3DFX's incompetancy has
>delayed the release of the Voodoo 5 boards .. AGAIN. One of PC gaming's top
>designers Peter Molyneux calls it quits (for PC's) and will only make
>console titles in the future.
Not quite so....
http://pc.ign.com/news/19925.html
Old line, but thank heavens for small maricles (spelling?)....
Jeremy "LordHaHa" Johnson thinks the storm is gathering. Brace
yourselfs...we will have rocky times ahead....
Evil Avatar
>Evil Avatar wrote:
>>
>> http://dreamcast.ign.com
>>
>> Might as well embrace it, I think that is where we are headed anyway.
>>
>
>Maybe we should be. There are some damn good games coming out for the
>consoles. Tony Hawk Pro Skater (Dreamcast), Perfect Dark (N64), Vagrant
>Story (PSX), ExciteBike64 (N64)...all triple AAA titles and those were
>all released within the last 2 WEEKS. (OK, granted they are across 3
>different systems, but still..). I never ceases to amaze me how much
>system bias blinds some people (I'm not accusing you, EA, I'm just
>speaking generally). I think Eidos should have ported Thief and Thief 2
>over the the Dreamcast. It would have done great on that system.
I couldn't agree with that more. I own a Dreamcast and I just love it, often
opting to spend time on my "excellent" Dreamcast games instead of the
"average" PC games that I often play so I can comment on them on my website.
There is just a fantastic amount of really quality stuff being made for all
the console systems. Pick up an issue of Gamefan (http://www.gamefan.com) and
you will just be drooling over some of the stuff you find in there.
Pick up an issue of PC gamer and often times I find myself going, "Ho Hum...
more of the same."
I really wish that Eidos could have found a way to keep Looking Glass afloat,
that was one hell of a high quality operation.
-=Evil=-
Evil Avatar
>
>Evil Avatar wrote in message ...
>>
>>Might as well embrace it, I think that is where we are headed anyway.
>>
>
>
>where you buy and register only your base software for online play.
>Platform hardware will always be niche kiddy stuff because of it's
>inflexibility.
>
>-G
>
>
saturate the market to the point where no one can make any money in online
only gaming (I'm thinking of the EQ, Asheron's Call style games, not the free
Q3A style games).
For example... right now I pay for 2 Everquest accounts, one for me and one
for my Wife. Just recently I was also paying for a Gamestorm account so I
could play Air Warrior III Online and I still had my old Ultima Online
account.
That is $40 a month in online game fees.
Because I'm a Pseudo member of the press, I also have a free Asheron's Call
account and a Free Fighter Ace II account.
What did I get in the mail from Microsoft the other day? Allegiance. If I
pick that one up... we are talking another $10 a month.
You can see where I'm going with this... I was at the point where if I went
ahead and signed up for Allegiance I would be paying $50 a month (the price of
a full single player game) just in online fees.
Now, I would get a lot of gaming out of that $50, but do you really think the
average joe is going to pay $50 a month just so he can have more than one game
to play?
I don't. And I didn't. I ended up cutting out my UO account and my Gamestorm
account so that I had enough money to keep playing Everquest, to allow my Wife
to join in on the EQ fun and go ahead and sign up for Allegiance (something I
still have yet to do).
We just recently posted a rumor (from a really excellent source, BTW) on my
page that even id Software is considering creating an Online Only pay-to-play
game.
I just seems like we are sure going to see this market hit the saturation
point very quickly.
Evil Avatar
>Not quite so....
>
>http://pc.ign.com/news/19925.html
>
>Old line, but thank heavens for small maricles (spelling?)....
>
>Jeremy "LordHaHa" Johnson thinks the storm is gathering. Brace
>yourselfs...we will have rocky times ahead....
I think he just said that because someone put him on the spot. I have serious
doubts that he will return to PC gaming after the release of both the
Playstation 2 and the X-Box.
There is just too much money to be made across the four console systems,
Dreamcast
Dolphin
Playstation 2
X-Box
For lots of developers to stick with the PC Platform. I know there are still
going to be lots of companies developing PC games... what I don't understand
is _WHY_?
I know that if I was running a game development company I would want to stay
as far away as possible from any platform that has the potential for great
games to bomb as badly as they sometimes do.
Even shitty console games tend to sell more than good PC games.
Evil Avatar
Eidos already owns Ion Storm; Lock, Stock & Barrel. I suspect they won't be
closing them down any time soon just because they now own so much of the
company.
We might see some staffing changes after the Daikatana disaster, but I don't
think they will close down a company that they have a controlling interest in.
Christopher D. Johnson
> > clouds we're seeing right now. Any one piece of news can be shrugged
off.
> > It's the combination that's got me worried --> the sim industry
> effectively
> > dying as a mainstream hobby, the E3 where many PC designers were
lamenting
> > that's its simply not cost-effective to develop for the PC anymore, the
> > death of Looking Glass, Mattel's attempts to jettison SSI, Hasbro
> butchering
> > Microprose, Peter Molyneaux leaving PCs, Brian Reynolds stating that he
> just
> > can't make something as sophisticated as Alpha Centauri anymore for the
PC
> > market.
>
> Do you have a link to where Brian Reynolds said that, or wasn't it an
online
> interview?
>
Sorry M., I don't have the exact link for you. I'm pretty sure I read it
in the latest Computers Games Magazine (which I then threw away as I'm
moving on Tuesday). I hate to contribute to irresponsible USENET rumours,
so take this as a good faith expression that I'm not making this up, and I
read it recently in one of the print magazines. The gist of the interview
was Brian Reynolds stating that he went too far out into philosophy and hard
science fiction with Alpha Centauri, and apparently lost alot of people with
the depth of the concepts, so he would be returning to more familiar and
simplistic terrain for their RTS games. Personally, I was disappointed,
since while I thought the PRESENTATION could have better of the concepts,
the underlying ideas were fascinating (I loved "Ethical Calculus", and had a
2 hour discussion with my fiancee about how possible such a concept really
is).
Chris Johnson
Christopher D. Johnson
Chris Johnson
Jungleland <art...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:392C9A24...@mindspring.com...
> "The All Powerful and All Knowing Oz!" wrote:
> >
> > Avault is reporting that LGS will close down tomorrow. Tis a sad day,
> > indeed.
> >
> > http://www.avault.com/news/displaynews.asp?story=5242000-161711
>
M. de Mare
Thanks for the summary! Yeah, I agree with you completely. To me, Digital
Sentience is a lot more exciting than Chemistry, especially with the
excellent quotes that all the techs had. I enjoyed SMAC a lot more than
either of the Civs (and that's saying a lot!)
Johan List
>
> Avault is reporting that LGS will close down tomorrow. Tis a sad day,
> indeed.
>
> http://www.avault.com/news/displaynews.asp?story=5242000-161711
Wow.
This is very sad. They are in fact the only gamesdev company that I
would buy a game from, without having seen any review. Because you just
would know their game would live and breathe quality all over.
I can't believe it. Everybody at LG, thank you for all the glorious,
fun, exciting gaming moments I experienced playing your games. You've
made magic.
Cheers,
Johan
Johan List
>
> And now this reality check from Tim Sweeny:
[snip]
>
> This is the bit where the comet hits the
> earth and the dinosaurs die, but the way is cleared for cooler life
> forms to evolve.
Cooler life forms eh...
Translation: Cooler life forms = the producers/publishers of endless
lines of 3D FPS clones with no innovative gameplay whatsoever, worthless
RTS games and Tomb Raider-like crap all over.
Now that sounds great.
NOT.
Cheers,
Johan
Led Mirage
<o...@NOSPAMgamestats.com> wrote:
>This has nothing to do with John Romero. Just because Eidos can't pay
>Looking Glass' bills doesn't mean Daikatana and John Romero are to blame.
>The semi-hit game has come too late to save them.
You're right. I think that they probably felt if they were going to
let Eidos to run their company, they might as well shut down.
>Everyone ignored Looking Glass games for years until Thief and their sales
>always were marginal at best. They've never gotten the commercial hit they
>should have and it's a sad day to hear them closing. However, Romero is no
>more to blame than Eidos for a wholly owned development house shutting down.
>Who knows, maybe they didn't have anyone doing a good job managing their
>money?
No, their games simply didn't sell. And all I can say at this point is
that this is complete bullshit. Not at the news or anything, but I
truely felt the loss of LG. I'd played all their non sim games and
they were all excellent games. LG stood for what is great about PC
games: innovative, deep, solid and above all fun. It's a shame many
bullshit developers are still around while LG folds. PC gamers really
need to look at themselves.
>Blame the consumers who ignored their games for so many years. They're the
>real culprits.
Led Mirage
wrote:
> This is the bit where the comet hits the
>earth and the dinosaurs die, but the way is cleared for cooler life
>forms to evolve.
>
> -Tim
Well, one thing for sure, the roaches didn't die with the dinosaurs.
So I guess it's better to be a roach. Wiping out everything
irrespective isn't my idea of cool.
Led Mirage
<joh...@attglobal.net> wrote:
>The irony is that I've played some of the best games ever over the past year
>(Planescape:Torment, Unreal Tournament, Thief II, Rogue Spear, MiG Alley),
>but now I'm rather depressed about the future of this hobby.
And if BIS games (Fallout series, Planescape) aren't selling, they may
die as well.
>
Led Mirage
wrote:
>Looking at the Eidos/Looking Glass situation, I can't help but be sickened
>by it. Ion Storm lives, and LG dies. What's wrong with this picture?
The exact reason why people would buy amazon.com stocks (never made a
cent in its entire existence) and dumped other proven winners. Ion
Storm operates on promises, while LG proved that their games don't
make money, however good they are.
>At least I've got a pile of unplayed games that I can dig into and finish.
At least BIS is still around and Troika is still making Arcanum.
Werner Spahl
> >> Avault is reporting that LGS will close down tomorrow. Tis a sad day,
> >> indeed.
>
> What I'm most curious about is who gets (or keeps) the rights to Thief.
> I mean, Looking Glass had already signed on with Eidos to do Thief 2 Gold
Can't they ever do a game without releasing a Gold version, so you have to
get it twice :(? What a cheap way to make more money compared to the games
where additional levels are free to download...
--
Werner Spahl (ui2...@mail.lrz-muenchen.de) Q3A:[Blut]er Freedom for
"The meaning of my life is to make me crazy!" Wesp[dagh-l] Vorlonships
Werner Spahl
> recent games just didn't do it for me. I don't think that LG will
> ever be surpassed. The "intelligent" shooter genre has just died.
No, Valve is still alive and IMHO surpassed LG with Half-Life already :)!
Maybe one of Looking Glass's troubles was, that they didn't really produce
"intelligent" shooters, but games that were somewhat between genres. SS2
was too much RPG for me and possible too much shooter for RPG fans. Thief
was brilliant, but Thief 2 much too similar and both tended to get boring,
because the levels take so long to finish. IMHO the better road is to add
improvements to existing genres, like Half-Life did, instead of changing
them too much into special combinations, that less people will play...
I hope we have Thief leaning, taking and alert systems in Half-Life 2 ;)!
Werner
>
> This is the bit where the comet hits the
>earth and the dinosaurs die, but the way is cleared for cooler life
>forms to evolve.
That word from a man who did nothing else than produce the next
pointless 3d shooter.
Werner
-----
Memory Dragon
we...@my-dejanews.com
L.J. Wischik
>Thanks for the summary! Yeah, I agree with you completely. To me, Digital
>Sentience is a lot more exciting than Chemistry, especially with the
>excellent quotes that all the techs had. I enjoyed SMAC a lot more than
I too liked SMAC much more than the CIVs. But I think that computer games
are too complicated at the moment. Compare them with books or movies.
Computer games are technically complex to understand. And most (apart from
PS:T and Thief!) don't give much deep or emotional or meaningful reward.
Books and movies are so simple that anyone can get into them, without
trouble. And many do give deep and emotional and meaningful reward.
It should be possible for computer games to become easier to use, and
deeper.
--
Lucian Wischik, Queens' College, Cambridge CB3 9ET. www.wischik.com/lu
Secret Squirrel
>On Wed, 24 May 2000 19:38:27 -0400, "David Long"
><o...@NOSPAMgamestats.com> wrote:
>
>
>>This has nothing to do with John Romero. Just because Eidos can't pay
>>Looking Glass' bills doesn't mean Daikatana and John Romero are to blame.
>>The semi-hit game has come too late to save them.
>
>You're right. I think that they probably felt if they were going to
>let Eidos to run their company, they might as well shut down.
From what I heard from a source close to LG, that is completely wrong.
They shut down BECAUSE they couldn't sell the company to Eidos.
They were in financial trouble for a while, probably because their
design philosphy of "emergent gameplay" caused Thief to take something
like four years to develop, and they were desperately trying to sell
the company so they could keep it in business.
When their last hope, Eidos backed out of the deal at the last minute,
I think they decided they had little other choice than to shut down.
>No, their games simply didn't sell.
Which wouldn't have neccessarily killed them they weren't such a big
company with so many expenses and their games didn't take so long to
make.
But when you take like four years or something (I'm just guessing, I
know it took a long time) to make a game like Thief, and then it
doesn't sell well, well of course you're gonna have problems.
But that's a management issue, and a design issue, and it's not
because the people prividing the content at Looking Glass didn't do a
great job at it.
If I'm not mistaken, Thief took so long because of the way LG designed
their games. They didn't even know they were making a title based
around a Thief when they started. They embraced a philosophy of
"emergent gameplay" which seems pretty close to what the Trespasser
developers were doing. They designed a rendering engine, a physics
system, and systems for hearing and vision which were unparralelled,
and then tried to design a game around it. This, in my opinion, is a
quite inefficient way of designing a game, and there's no reason
someone else couldn't have come up with Thief with a more focused
design strategy. It wasn't the fault of the content creators, it was
more of an issue of the system being inefficient. Inefficency = death
if all your games aren't huge mega hits.
Of course, I expect some of the programmers at LG would disagree with
me, because they have often stated how great the "emergent gameplay"
design philosphy is, but this is clearly the end result of that, and
the same thing caused the failure of Trespasser.
>And all I can say at this point is
>that this is complete bullshit. Not at the news or anything, but I
>truely felt the loss of LG. I'd played all their non sim games and
>they were all excellent games. LG stood for what is great about PC
>games: innovative, deep, solid and above all fun. It's a shame many
>bullshit developers are still around while LG folds. PC gamers really
>need to look at themselves.
I'm sure something good will eventually arise form the ashes of LG.
paleo...@my-deja.com
"Starkenfast" <justi...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> As games continue to get more complex, production values are
> skyrocketing..and while not all games need to spend 4 years in
production
> and cost 26 million dollars, even the average "innovative" game
requires a
> hefty budget.
It strikes me, though, that much of this development time goes into the
presentation, rather than the overall concept. Like someone in another
thread intimated, the Thief series wasn't as successful as it could
have been because the "graphics sucked". We constantly see complaints
that graphics should never replace gameplay, yet that's exactly what
has happened. Check out the latest console games - they will bring your
jaw to the floor with their effects and fluidity, but underneath
they're still just the same basic game that was being released 15 years
ago and longer. Parallels to the movie industry, perhaps.
Don't take any of this seriously, because it's probably bullshit, but
perhaps this is why we won't see a return to form for the PC - unless
millions are spent on graphics and sound, the underlying excellent
gameplay won't be enough to sell any title. Therefore, the PC is
destined to die because graphics are more important than gameplay,
which is where the consoles will reign supreme. Most consumers look at
Soul Calibur on the DC and start drooling - who cares how it plays when
you see that in the shop?
But who knows - those are just a few random thoughts. I am bitterly
disappointed to see LG fold, because they were one of the few reasons I
still play games on my PC (started back in the early 80s). Perhaps the
PC will return to the shareware and enthusiast scene that started it,
once all those looking for flashier graphics have gone to other systems
(look at the Amiga scene for example).
On the other side of the coin, though, given the popularity of personal
computers in the home, it's hard to believe that it could disappear as
a viable gaming platform. Look at the amount of hardware that is
dependent upon the PC.
Who knows...
Paleo
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Kevin Nguyen
Tom Paris <tom....@voyager.ssh> wrote in message
news:8gi562$ruj$1...@news.ycc.yale.edu...
> In article <8ghk5d$f13$1...@slb0.atl.mindspring.net>,
> jonathanclement@_nospam_mindspring.com says...
> >
> >indeed.
> >
> >
> >
>
> And those morons buying "Deer Hunter" will not shed a tear.
Hahaha
Krud
news:sioo5q...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> Blame John Romero for wasting some $26 Million of Eidos Interactive's money
on
> his Daikatana abortion.
Be patient, Ion Storm may be next.
-Krud
Piotr Wanat
> That word from a man who did nothing else than produce the next
> pointless 3d shooter.
>
Yup. That's sad. That's very sad we won't see any more ultra-immersive
games from the most innovative company ever. No System Shock 3....
sniff!
Neuro
Joel Mathis
>sjconro wrote:
>>
>> And now this reality check from Tim Sweeny:
>
>[snip]
>
>>
>> This is the bit where the comet hits the
>> earth and the dinosaurs die, but the way is cleared for cooler life
>> forms to evolve.
>
>Cooler life forms eh...
>
>Translation: Cooler life forms = the producers/publishers of endless
>lines of 3D FPS clones with no innovative gameplay whatsoever, worthless
>RTS games and Tomb Raider-like crap all over.
>
>Now that sounds great.
>
>NOT.
Those are the companies that are falling out right now. Give it time.
Joel Mathis
See the Hot Sheet at Gone Gold for my take on the day's news
http://www.gonegold.com/hot
mr bernard langham
> realistic day. Looking Glass spent lots of money making innovative games
> that never sold well.
Great, an economic rationalist. Just what we needed.
>
> A really cool guy I know who used to work at
> Looking Glass had some insight into this: the company slogan may well
> have been "By MIT Grads, For MIT Grads". Think about that.
> Most of the stuff they did was way out of the realm of what most
> mainstream gamers wanted.
It's a fitting slogan, which explains why Looking Glass sits firmly at the
top of my most admired and respected developers list. And, as Derrida said,
"Fuck the mainstream."
> This is the bit where the comet hits the
> earth and the dinosaurs die, but the way is cleared for cooler life
> forms to evolve.
Right, these "cooler life forms" you're referring to would be the lean, fit
and economically competitive "Deer Hunter" product range, I take it? The
cockroaches which survive the apocalypse. Great. So much for Social
Darwinism.
>^..^<
Bernard
--
mr bernard langham . blueboy@(diespamdie)ii.net . perth, western ashtraylia
cassetteNET/DIY lo-fi punkarama/indie vs major FAQ http://ii.net/~blueboy
--
"I won't be made to show films which leave people stunned and rigid with
stupidity and which kill the lust for life inside them and destroy their
feeling for themselves and the world." (Wim Wenders, "Kings of the Road")
Walter Mitty
wanker who souldn't have a web site puporting to represent the gamer.
Oh, and your reviews suck.
"Evil Avatar" <evila...@evilavatar.com> wrote in message
news:sioo5q...@corp.supernews.com...
> In article <ommois8q7iugieaqs...@4ax.com>, Harvester
<unk...@crypt.com> wrote:
> >On Wed, 24 May 2000 15:12:07 -0700, "The All Powerful and All Knowing
> >Oz!" <jonathanclement@_nospam_mindspring.com> wrote:
> >
> >>Avault is reporting that LGS will close down tomorrow. Tis a sad day,
> >>indeed.
> >>
> >>http://www.avault.com/news/displaynews.asp?story=5242000-161711
> >
> >crap, this sucks..
>
> Blame John Romero for wasting some $26 Million of Eidos Interactive's
money on
> his Daikatana abortion.
>
Stormrider
Squirrel) wrote:
>lmi...@yahoo.com (Led Mirage) wrote:
>>On Wed, 24 May 2000 19:38:27 -0400, "David Long"
>><o...@NOSPAMgamestats.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>This has nothing to do with John Romero. Just because Eidos can't pay
>>>Looking Glass' bills doesn't mean Daikatana and John Romero are to blame.
>>>The semi-hit game has come too late to save them.
>>
>>You're right. I think that they probably felt if they were going to
>>let Eidos to run their company, they might as well shut down.
>
>From what I heard from a source close to LG, that is completely wrong.
>
>They shut down BECAUSE they couldn't sell the company to Eidos.
>
>They were in financial trouble for a while, probably because their
>design philosphy of "emergent gameplay" caused Thief to take something
>like four years to develop, and they were desperately trying to sell
>the company so they could keep it in business.
>
>When their last hope, Eidos backed out of the deal at the last minute,
>I think they decided they had little other choice than to shut down.
But they end up buying Ion Storm after they blew the 26 mil they were
given. Does this make sense at all? 3 years ago Eidos gives over 26
million dollars to Ion Storm which was nothing more than a startup
company. They even blow all that money (I hear the rent for their
fancy penthouse office alone is $900,000) but at the time they have
had yet to release a product (unless you count Dominion which they
didn't even make). They were in financial trouble so Eidos bought
them out. Now recently LGS had their own financial troubles, Eidos
had a chance to give LGS the same deal they gave Ion...and backed out!
Does this make any sense at all? They blow all that money on a start
up company that just now releases a game, but they give a company like
LGS who has a proven track record the shaft.
Dr Yassam
> > <snip>...
> >Jeremy "LordHaHa" Johnson thinks the storm is gathering. Brace
> >yourselfs...we will have rocky times ahead....
>
> I think he just said that because someone put him on the spot.
No, because it's SO easy to be mis-quoted or see your comments
mis-interpreted by others, and therefore it had to be clarified.
> I have serious doubts that he will return to PC gaming after the
> release of both the Playstation 2 and the X-Box.
Why not, the PC is still a great gaming platform and will exceed the
specs of the XBox shortly after it is released.
Lionhead have said B&W will *not* be their last PC title, but further
titles will lead on the next-gen consoles with a PC version to follow
(instead of the reverse)!
> There is just too much money to be made across the four console
> systems,
>
> Dreamcast
> Dolphin
> Playstation 2
> X-Box
Correct. But this is no different than back when the console list was;
Playstation
Saturn
N64
or even when it was;
SNES
MegaDrive
During all these periods I read the *same* comments you've made, and yet
the PC games market is still here and it's still growing!
> For lots of developers to stick with the PC Platform. I know there
> are still going to be lots of companies developing PC games... what I
> don't understand is _WHY_?
That's the key, unless you understand why, you will always take a false
view of the gaming market overall. But believe it or not, for the
developers and programmers themselves, it's not ALL about money and
NOTHING else!!!
> I know that if I was running a game development company I would want
> to stay as far away as possible from any platform that has the
> potential for great games to bomb as badly as they sometimes do.
>
> Even shitty console games tend to sell more than good PC games.
Each week I read about new games in developement, and for almost every
multi-format game announced, the PC is one of those formats. Whether it
is DC+PC, PS2+PC, DC+PS2+PC etc, the PC is included. You only usually
see multi-format console-only games in console dominated genres, such as
3D beat-em-ups.
For new multi-format games, you can ask the question;
'Why bother with the PC version at all when the console versions will be
more profitable'.
Think about it! Developers are not stupid, they know what they're doing,
why spend the time, money and effort on the PC?
I can think of a number of reasons. Can you? :)
Dr Yassam
Joel Mathis
>But they end up buying Ion Storm after they blew the 26 mil they were
>given. Does this make sense at all? 3 years ago Eidos gives over 26
>million dollars to Ion Storm which was nothing more than a startup
>company. They even blow all that money (I hear the rent for their
>fancy penthouse office alone is $900,000) but at the time they have
>had yet to release a product (unless you count Dominion which they
>didn't even make). They were in financial trouble so Eidos bought
>them out. Now recently LGS had their own financial troubles, Eidos
>had a chance to give LGS the same deal they gave Ion...and backed out!
>
>Does this make any sense at all? They blow all that money on a start
>up company that just now releases a game, but they give a company like
>LGS who has a proven track record the shaft.
Actually that does make sense. The bad choices Eidos made earlier
mean no money for Looking Glass now. Eidos is dying, it's just a
question on when we hold the funeral.
Joel Mathis
>> There is just too much money to be made across the four console
>> systems,
>>
>> Dreamcast
>> Dolphin
>> Playstation 2
>> X-Box
>
>Correct. But this is no different than back when the console list was;
>
>Playstation
>Saturn
>N64
>
>or even when it was;
>
>SNES
>MegaDrive
You're forgetting TurboGraphx-16 (aka PC Engine), 3do, Neo Geo, and
Phillips CD-i which all hit at about the same time.
Lantz
> Man oh man! Why couldn't it have been Ion Storm? :{
>
Good God, don't close down Ion Storm NOW!
After the give us Diak, but before the real gems come out,
that's like eating your nasty vegetables, and seeing the strawberry
cheesecake get dumped in the trash.
nospam
>> Ahhh, what a goddamn shame.
OH !..... a Believer in God ??
>> Looking Glass has produced the games that
>> are in my top 10. Hell,
Well.... you do believe in hell, that's a good start !
>>System Shock is my favorite game of all time.
>> Thief and Thief 2, System Shock 2, all personal favorites. And don't
>> forget Terra Nova, another fine example of a thinking man's game. I
>> mean, holy shit,
We know that shit is NOT holy, but apparantly, you must believe in
holiness, that's another good start !
>> they did Ultima Underworld 1 and 2, masterpieces both
>> of them, years ahead of their time.
>>
>> I will never forget the legacy of code these master designers have
>> left us. Their work is a shining example of what can be achieved with
>> imagination and the guts to
>> try something original. Thank you Looking Glass, for some of the most
>> enjoyable
>> moments in my gaming life.
>>
>> Good luck in all your ventures guys, you've earned it...:)
You have the ability to appreciate, that's a good quality.
Now Direct that appreciation toward the Living Holy God.. The Lord
Jesus Christ who died for your sins and is waiting for YOU to call
upon him.
Rom. 10:13 Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved
Rev. 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write;
These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the
beginning of the creation of God;
FS
>On Thu, 25 May 2000 16:51:08 -0700, dduma(nospam)@freei.net wrote:
*snip*
>>>
>>> I will never forget the legacy of code these master designers have
>>> left us. Their work is a shining example of what can be achieved with
>>> imagination and the guts to
>>> try something original. Thank you Looking Glass, for some of the most
>>> enjoyable
>>> moments in my gaming life.
>>>
>>> Good luck in all your ventures guys, you've earned it...:)
>
>You have the ability to appreciate, that's a good quality.
>
>Now Direct that appreciation toward the Living Holy God.. The Lord
>Jesus Christ who died for your sins and is waiting for YOU to call
>upon him.
>
>Rom. 10:13 Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved
>
>Rev. 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write;
>These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the
>beginning of the creation of God;
Um, what?
Rev. Pedro Colman-Arrellaga
Shhh, let him be. He's the usenet version of those guys on streetcorners
holding a sign that says "Repent! Jesus is Coming Soon!!," yammering
about sin, all the while being ignored by the passersby.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Rev. Pedro Colman-Arréllaga | Believing is easier than thinking. Hence
hiss...@cris.com | so many more believers than thinkers.
hiss...@concentric.net | - Bruce Calvert
----------------------------|
| Do I contradict myself?
"The Typhoid Mary of | Very well then, I contradict myself,
the shipping business" | (I am large, I contain multitudes).
| - Walt Whitman
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Law
> The All Powerful and All Knowing Oz! <jonathanclement@_nospam_mindspring.com> wrote:
> : Avault is reporting that LGS will close down tomorrow. Tis a sad day,
> : indeed.
>
> : http://www.avault.com/news/displaynews.asp?story=5242000-161711
>
> Dammit! Nooo!!
>
> This truly IS a sad day. :(
damn the world sure is not fair
company put out GREAT/Inventive game end up go out of business.
crap game company know nothing other than clone the same old same old games again &
again only get bigger and bigger.
Goodbye
Underworld
System Shock
Thief..........
:'-(
Law
"Martin Keene (LIS)" wrote:
> ever be surpassed. The "intelligent" shooter genre has just died.
Sigh....... what a shame only LG do this know of 3D games....
Mark Stevens
<Drumm...@aol.SPAMSPAMSPAMcom> wrote:
>Maybe we should be. There are some damn good games coming out for the
>consoles.
There already *are* some damn good games available for the consoles.
I've never limited myself to one platform/system. I go through phases
where one dominates, but the way I see it, there's just too many good
games out there for one platform alone.
Jet Force Gemini (N64) was one of the best games I played in 1999. It
looks good, sounds good and plays like a dream. There's nothing like
it on the PC. Other N64 goodies include Zelda: Ocarina of Time and
Donkey Kong 64. Then there's the PSX, with the likes of Metal Gear
Solid, Dino Crisis, FF8, Wip3out, etc.
--
Mark Stevens
Douglas Ratcliff
>
[snip]
>
> simplistic terrain for their RTS games. Personally, I was disappointed,
> since while I thought the PRESENTATION could have better of the concepts,
> the underlying ideas were fascinating (I loved "Ethical Calculus", and had a
> 2 hour discussion with my fiancee about how possible such a concept really
> is).
>
I loved the techs in SMAC. This was one of the few games where I actually felt
I was learning something while I played it. Or, at least discovering
something.
Led Mirage
<storm...@nospam.antisocial.com> wrote:
>Does this make any sense at all? They blow all that money on a start
>up company that just now releases a game, but they give a company like
>LGS who has a proven track record the shaft.
LGS' track record is that their games don't sell. It's proven. As good
as SS2 and Thief 1&2 are, they are moderate sellers at best. Thief
would be considered their "breakthrough" game. And It wasn't even any
kind of hit.
Led Mirage
<ui2...@mail.lrz-muenchen.de> wrote:
>Can't they ever do a game without releasing a Gold version, so you have to
>get it twice :(? What a cheap way to make more money compared to the games
>where additional levels are free to download...
That seems to be Eidos' policy. Not of LGS'. I guess they think that
if it's good enough for a sequel, then it's good enough for a "Gold".
L.J. Wischik
>LGS' track record is that their games don't sell. It's proven. As good
>as SS2 and Thief 1&2 are, they are moderate sellers at best. Thief
>would be considered their "breakthrough" game. And It wasn't even any
>kind of hit.
Thief1/Gold was an *ENORMOUS* hit. Still selling at high price point 9
months after release. Made a fortune for the company. SS2 also made a
healthy profit.
Dr Yassam
>
>You're forgetting TurboGraphx-16 (aka PC Engine), 3do, Neo Geo,
>and Phillips CD-i which all hit at about the same time.
Thanks, I knew there was more, but my brain was hurting. :)
Dr Yassam
Krud
news:teeris8kcfd9cj46e...@4ax.com...
>
> >> I will never forget the legacy of code these master designers have
> >> left us. Their work is a shining example of what can be achieved with
> >> imagination and the guts to
> >> try something original. Thank you Looking Glass, for some of the most
> >> enjoyable
> >> moments in my gaming life.
>
>
> Now Direct that appreciation toward the Living Holy God.. The Lord
> Jesus Christ who died for your sins and is waiting for YOU to call
> upon him.
What, is he forming a new game company or something? I hate to tell you this
(not really) but Jesus went out of business a long time ago (blame it on the
Romans) and people are still upset about it. And talk about delays? It's
been 2000 years and the sequel still hasn't come out. What a maroon...
-Krud
Krud
> http://dreamcast.ign.com
>
> Might as well embrace it, I think that is where we are headed anyway.
Check this out......
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tokyo, May 26 (Bloomberg) -- Sega Enterprises Ltd. said President Shoichiro
Irimajiri will step aside in June as the world's No. 3 maker of home
video-game consoles seeks to remake itself following a third straight year of
losses after domestic sales of its Dreamcast game box and software titles fell
short of targets.
The Tokyo-based company said Chairman Isao Ohkawa, 74, will be given the dual
responsibility of president, replacing 60-year- old Irimajiri, who will become
Sega's vice chairman. The management changes will be effective from June 1.
Irimajiri's departure comes after Sega reported a group net loss of 42.9
billion yen ($340 million), or 390.57 yen a share, in the year ended March 31.
In the year-ago period, Sega also posted a loss of 42.9 billion yen, which
amounted to 425.27 yen a share. Sega in late February forecast a net loss of
44.9 billion yen. Still, sales rose 27 percent to 339 billion yen, reflecting
a boost in revenue after the Dreamcast's introduction to U.S. and European
markets.
Sega was counting on the Dreamcast console, which has sold 5.8 million units
worldwide since its November 1998 debut, to return the money-losing company to
profit. Weaker-than-expected sales in Japan have widened losses at the
gamemaker, which has fallen behind rivals Sony Corp. and Nintendo Co., the
world's No. 1 and No. 2 home-use video game machine makers.
``Domestic sales of (Sega's) hardware and software at the end of the year were
way below our targets,'' said Shoichi Yamazaki, Sega's general manager of the
finance and accounting division.
For the year ending March 31, Sega sees a return to profit, forecasting net
income of 1.5 billion yen on sales of 336 billion yen. Sega is basing its
forecasts on optimism worldwide sales of the Dreamcast will top 10 million
units and on savings from efforts to reduce costs.
Dreamcast
The Japanese creator of Sonic the Hedgehog has been fighting an uphill battle
against Sony, the maker of the PlayStation 2 video-game console, which is
successor to the best-selling PlayStation.
Shipments of Sony's five-year-old PlayStation, which debuted in December 1994,
reached 73 million units by the year ended March 31. The Tokyo-based company
sold 1.41 million PlayStation 2 machines in the first month of release in
March. Sony aims to sell an additional 8 million PlayStation units and 10
million PlayStation 2 units in the year ending March 31.
Sega last year sold 4.65 million Dreamcast units worldwide, falling short of
its 4.9 million unit target announced in November. In Japan, Sega sold 950,000
Dreamcast units last year, missing its target of 1.1 million units.
Abroad, Dreamcast sales totaled 2.5 million in the U.S., 1.0 million in
Europe, and an additional 160,000 units in Asia excluding Japan.
For the year to March 2001, the company expects to sell an additional 2.5
million units in the U.S. as it moves to introduce the modem-equipped machine
to game enthusiasts looking to face off against opponents on line.
``We are confident of meeting the targets in the U.S., as we will have a
variety of game software lined up,'' said Shunichi Nakamura, corporate
executive vice president.
Challenges
Even so, that's no guarantee of success. Sony will introduce the long-awaited
PlayStation 2 console on October 26 in the U.S. where it will be sold with a
port through which customers will eventually be able to install a hard disk
drive and cable modem. The disk drive and modem won't be immediately
available.
Earlier this month, Sega cut the 128-bit Dreamcast's retail price in the U.S.
by $50 to $149. Sega also announced it will offer a free one-month
subscription to SegaNet services, an Internet access provider.
Sega widened its loss forecast in late February for the year ended March
because of slow console and software sales. The shares have lost 60 percent of
their value since the revision.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
-Krud
Tim J Stellmach
Led Mirage <lmi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>LGS' track record is that their games don't sell. It's proven. As good
>as SS2 and Thief 1&2 are, they are moderate sellers at best. Thief
>would be considered their "breakthrough" game. And It wasn't even any
>kind of hit.
This is pure mythology. Thief made money. Shock 2 was pretty close to
break-even last I heard, and will almost certainly make money over its
lifetime. Thief II is coming out of the gate _much_ stronger than Thief,
and will also almost certainly make money (for LG's creditors, now).
Thief Gold started showing a profit a while ago. Both Underworld games
and System Shock 1 were clear money-makers. In an industry where the vast
majority of titles lose money, these are all "hits." And to say that
Thief wasn't any kind of hit is just laughable: it's sold several hundred
thousand units, which very few titles do.
You can't run a company out of business by making profitable games,
no matter how "moderate" their sales are (compared to, I don't know
what, but I'd guess unreasonable benchmarks like Half-Life). The games
that everyone tends to cite did not run LG out of business: they helped
keep us in business in an industry where most companies fold quickly.
LGS lost money on a number of projects over its lifetime, and if it had
had a major, top-selling hit (of the kind that constitutes perhaps the
top 0.5% of all titles) it might have been able to afford those losses
better. But saying that LG's titles, as a generalization, didn't sell
or didn't make money just flies in the face of facts. I know that many
people think they should have sold _better_, and that's flattering, but
that's no reason to perpetuate the myth that they didn't sell well.
Slash
[snip]
>Don't take any of this seriously, because it's probably bullshit, but
>perhaps this is why we won't see a return to form for the PC - unless
>millions are spent on graphics and sound, the underlying excellent
>gameplay won't be enough to sell any title. Therefore, the PC is
>destined to die because graphics are more important than gameplay,
>which is where the consoles will reign supreme. Most consumers look at
>Soul Calibur on the DC and start drooling - who cares how it plays when
>you see that in the shop?
Bad example - Soul Calibur is a genuinely excellent game. :)
>But who knows - those are just a few random thoughts. I am bitterly
>disappointed to see LG fold, because they were one of the few reasons I
>still play games on my PC (started back in the early 80s). Perhaps the
>PC will return to the shareware and enthusiast scene that started it,
>once all those looking for flashier graphics have gone to other systems
>(look at the Amiga scene for example).
Sure does leave a rather large hole in the gaming industry, doesn't
it? Could be an opportunity for another hotshot development house to
make their mark.
>On the other side of the coin, though, given the popularity of personal
>computers in the home, it's hard to believe that it could disappear as
>a viable gaming platform. Look at the amount of hardware that is
>dependent upon the PC.
>
>Who knows...
>
>Paleo
-Slash
"The people on the internet know more about what I am doing than I do.
Like, they will say that I am going to be in this mall on this day and
sure enough I am there."
- Tori Amos, Dew Drop Inn Tour, 17-June-1996
Andreas Baus
It's just a pity they are taking LG (and who knows who else before it's
over) down with them ... :(
--
----
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
[Insert joke here.] ----
--
an...@studcs.uni-sb.de (Andreas Baus)
Andreas Baus
> On Wed, 24 May 2000 23:48:31 GMT, "Jeff Jones" <jeff....@home.com>
> wrote:
>>At least I've got a pile of unplayed games that I can dig into and finish.
> At least BIS is still around and Troika is still making Arcanum.
And there still are gems coming out every once in a while... latest example
for me would be "Flying Heroes" - a typical sleeper (like most LG games,
BTW :). No hype, almost no publicity, but a cute and very entertaining game
nonetheless.
M. de Mare
"Krud" <au...@home.com> wrote in message
news:cHsX4.100651$E85.1...@news1.rdc1.md.home.com...
You're wrong actually. The sequel has just arrived. It should be in stores
soon. And its maker has been crucified very recently...
Joel Mathis
>In article <392e0971...@news.netvigator.com>,
>Led Mirage <lmi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>LGS' track record is that their games don't sell. It's proven. As good
>>as SS2 and Thief 1&2 are, they are moderate sellers at best. Thief
>>would be considered their "breakthrough" game. And It wasn't even any
>>kind of hit.
>
>This is pure mythology. Thief made money. Shock 2 was pretty close to
>break-even last I heard, and will almost certainly make money over its
>lifetime. Thief II is coming out of the gate _much_ stronger than Thief,
>and will also almost certainly make money (for LG's creditors, now).
>Thief Gold started showing a profit a while ago. Both Underworld games
>and System Shock 1 were clear money-makers. In an industry where the vast
>majority of titles lose money, these are all "hits." And to say that
>Thief wasn't any kind of hit is just laughable: it's sold several hundred
>thousand units, which very few titles do.
You forgot John Madden '93 which was EA's best selling game ever when
it was released, so Looking Glass even had one mega-hit.
Led Mirage
Stellmach) wrote:
>LGS lost money on a number of projects over its lifetime, and if it had
>had a major, top-selling hit (of the kind that constitutes perhaps the
>top 0.5% of all titles) it might have been able to afford those losses
>better. But saying that LG's titles, as a generalization, didn't sell
>or didn't make money just flies in the face of facts. I know that many
>people think they should have sold _better_, and that's flattering, but
>that's no reason to perpetuate the myth that they didn't sell well.
>
I take back what I said about Thief. I understand that the post TN
games (except BOG) were all profittable. But surely they weren't
spectacular. I guess I'm just mistaken by PC Data.
Jarno Kaarinen
>Even shitty console games tend to sell more than good PC games.
Even shitty console games tend to sell more than good console games.
Jarno Kaarinen
>Eidos already owns Ion Storm; Lock, Stock & Barrel. I suspect they won't be
>closing them down any time soon just because they now own so much of the
>company.
I actually heard Ion Storm is working on Thief 3: The Tide of Frogs.
Jarno Kaarinen
>LGS' track record is that their games don't sell. It's proven. As good
>as SS2 and Thief 1&2 are, they are moderate sellers at best. Thief
>would be considered their "breakthrough" game. And It wasn't even any
>kind of hit.
I always felt Eidos was marketing Tomb Raider 2 (or was it Tomb Raider
3?) more than Thief that Christmas. And also Half-life hype ate lots
of the steam from Thief release (same Christmas).
Jarno Kaarinen
>http://dreamcast.ign.com
>
>Might as well embrace it, I think that is where we are headed anyway.
Really? Didn't you hear PS2 and X-Box will blow Dreamcast away?
Jarno Kaarinen
>Evil Avatar wrote:
>>
>> http://dreamcast.ign.com
>>
>> Might as well embrace it, I think that is where we are headed anyway.
>>
>> -=Evil=-
>
>Maybe we should be. There are some damn good games coming out for the
The funny thing, though, is that the site where Evil Avatar points to,
says in the main page: "Sega announces losses in Japan".
So was his point that all gaming is now dying one by one? ;^)
>different systems, but still..). I never ceases to amaze me how much
>system bias blinds some people (I'm not accusing you, EA, I'm just
>speaking generally). I think Eidos should have ported Thief and Thief 2
>over the the Dreamcast. It would have done great on that system.
About the same as Rainbow 6 on Dreamcast. Has it also been a great hit
on it?
Anyway, when you think about it, it is interesting that Eidos,
Activision and Electronic Arts seem to be financial troubles too (or
what were those stock crashes anyway?), even though they release many
big name console titles too. Tomb Raider anyone? Or Tenchu?
Maybe even the console market is not such a heaven for developers and
publishers like some of you make it to be. In fact even console
developers have voiced their opinion that it is becoming too expensive
to make games nowadays, you need Hollywood budgets to make those
FMV-parts that "cultivated" gamers nowadays require.
Just need to look how well a FMV-"game" like Final Fantasy 8 sells...
Jarno Kaarinen
>the console systems. Pick up an issue of Gamefan (http://www.gamefan.com) and
>you will just be drooling over some of the stuff you find in there.
>
>Pick up an issue of PC gamer and often times I find myself going, "Ho Hum...
>more of the same."
Really? I have seen exactly the opposite, console gamers drooling on
"more-of the same" games like Ridge Racer 5, Soul Calibur, Tekken Tag
Tournament, Pro Skater, Grazy Taxi, another new soccer games etc. I
know people drooled over MGS2 on E3, but then that is the rare
Thief/Rogue Spear level of gem that I see on consoles.
>I really wish that Eidos could have found a way to keep Looking Glass afloat,
>that was one hell of a high quality operation.
I agree, and also one of the exact reasons why I always felt PC games
had more innovation than console games (at least those console games
released outside Japan). Just too many generic fighting games, racing
games and sports games on consoles.
Jarno Kaarinen
>I kind of think Online gaming is a fad. It won't take long before they
>saturate the market to the point where no one can make any money in online
>only gaming (I'm thinking of the EQ, Asheron's Call style games, not the free
>Q3A style games).
>
>For example... right now I pay for 2 Everquest accounts, one for me and one
>for my Wife. Just recently I was also paying for a Gamestorm account so I
>could play Air Warrior III Online and I still had my old Ultima Online
>account.
>
>That is $40 a month in online game fees.
That is why I think these online gaming services don't offer only one
game, but several. So instead of paying $10 to play on single online
game, you pay $10 (or $20 or whatever) and you have a selection of
games you can play online. And that selection is of course updated
every now and then with new games to keep online gamers happy.
>Now, I would get a lot of gaming out of that $50, but do you really think the
>average joe is going to pay $50 a month just so he can have more than one game
>to play?
Maybe he pays $50 to play any online game from a selection of 100
games, which is updated with new games regularly?
>I just seems like we are sure going to see this market hit the saturation
>point very quickly.
Or then it changes to my model, unless it has already.
Jarno Kaarinen
>>Don't take any of this seriously, because it's probably bullshit, but
>>perhaps this is why we won't see a return to form for the PC - unless
>>millions are spent on graphics and sound, the underlying excellent
>>gameplay won't be enough to sell any title. Therefore, the PC is
>>destined to die because graphics are more important than gameplay,
>>which is where the consoles will reign supreme. Most consumers look at
>>Soul Calibur on the DC and start drooling - who cares how it plays when
>>you see that in the shop?
>
>Bad example - Soul Calibur is a genuinely excellent game. :)
Maybe an "excellent game" in a same way like Quake 3 or the thousandth
soccer game, but not an innovative one. It is yet another arena
fighting game, really, even if it has different new moves.
Slash
scribbled:
It excels quite well within the gameplay niche it occupies. It's a
very well balanced game that is a joy to play, despite it being a
'generic' fighting game. That being said, I do see how you were just
using it as an example in your statement, and I'm not trying to
inflate this thread in any way. :)
-Slash
"The people on the internet know more about what I am doing than I do.
mr bernard langham
"Led Mirage" <lmi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:392f0a40...@news.netvigator.com...
> On Thu, 25 May 2000 11:15:54 +0200, Werner Spahl
> <ui2...@mail.lrz-muenchen.de> wrote:
>
>
> >Can't they ever do a game without releasing a Gold version, so you have
to
> >get it twice :(? What a cheap way to make more money compared to the
games
> >where additional levels are free to download...
In retrospect, it's a shame this dubious procedure didn't make *more* money.
Which is something I never thought I'd say.
>^..^<
Bernard
--
mr bernard langham . blueboy@(diespamdie)ii.net . perth, western ashtraylia
cassetteNET/DIY lo-fi punkarama/indie vs major FAQ http://ii.net/~blueboy
--
"Feel free to cite, sample, steal, sell, reference, borrow or plagiarize
anything that I have created, thought or said. Information wants to be free
and intellectual property is both anachronistic and wrong" -- Meme #96
mr bernard langham
"sh" <sh...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:lflris4kuo1ddccp8...@4ax.com...
> Trent <Drumm...@aol.SPAMSPAMSPAMcom> wrote:
>
> >
> >Maybe we should be. There are some damn good games coming out for the
I bought a cheap PS recently and am *hugely* enjoying Vandal Hearts -- a
near perfect recreation of classic old-skool Amiga strategy/RPG gameplay. It
seems they *do* make 'em like this any more.
> You know the games may be great, but oh, the graphics are awful. I saw
> Vagrant Story today at an EB. It looks like a good game, but the
> resolution was so low that there were aliasing effects everywhere.
Oh look, really, this "da grafix suxxors" line as a valid criticism of a
particular title has just got to stop. From what I can see, Vagrant Story is
presented in a very clever, boundary-pushing, dead arty fashion -- the whole
game is just a brilliantly innovative new way of presenting and telling a
story. I've never seen in-engine cutscenes used so well or so stylishly --
it's like watching a (moving) graphic novel. Who cares if the graphics are
aliased?
So, embrace pixellation as Postmodern retro-chic or remain a diehard
Modernist -- the choice is yours. :)