Realism in an FPS. What I'd like to see-
Royston Ng
much of it. After all, it is a game, and people do want to be the heroes. In
my opinion, if people played infantrymen and died within the first two
minutes of contact, the game wouldn't sell too well.
Real infantry FIBUA (fighting in built up area) combat is a lot of teamwork,
planning and luck. Even then, there are often casualties. Until game AI can
develop to the point where the computer friendlies can support you properly,
or the timing is done right, it will be hard to simulate "real" combat. The
closest perhaps are the R6 type shooters; even then, the enemy is pretty
dumb. If the enemy were as smart as their real life counterparts, I think R6
would be too difficult!
After all, imagine booby traps, grenades and heavy weapons stacked up
against your team! That would necessitate the military's requirement of a
5:1 advantage before assaulting a building in order to suppress and
overwhelm the defenders. Of course, the US Ranger's field manual does state
that "the preferred method of entering a building is to use a main gun tank
round, direct fire artillery round, or TOW, Dragon, or Hellfire missile to
clear the first room". Maybe multiplayer, but then who wants to play the
defenders?
That's not to say that the games can't do with more realism of course. Your
suggestions are feasible and probably would add much to a game. Perhaps
enemies who fall to the ground should require gamers to pump some more lead
into them to "make sure". Perhaps enemy AI could be improved a little and
accuracy degraded. But you'll know when a game becomes too real you die not
because you're incompetent or not good enough, but just because your
number's up, like in the real world.
Royston
David Lumley
seeya
Stephen Lumley
Peter Frazier <pfra...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:37116dd5...@news.ozemail.com.au...
> It is heartening to note that some FPS are adding bigger slices of
> reality in their game physics. The arrival of one-shot/one-kill
> weapons, crouch/prone options and realistic weapon loadouts (as seen
> in Rainbow 6 and -to an extent- Delta Force) are moving the genre to
> where I'd like to see it. I'm tired of being a space marine who can
> take a shotgun blast to the head and only suffer an X% reduction to my
> health. Don't even mention the various acrobatic skills available in
> some games...
> But I'm still not happy with what is available. Rainbow 6 is the most
> realistic game out but there are still a few options to hope for. I'd
> like to hear what other people are waiting to see in an FPS. I'll
> start the ball rolling with (in no particular order)...
> i) Realistic damage modelling. I'd like to see light flesh wounds that
> impair your performance. i.e. leg wounds knocking you down and
> disabling your movement or arm wounds causing unsteadiness in your
> aim.
> ii) Aiming. I have no combat experience, and little shooting
> experience. (A few painful paintball sessions is about it). However I
> feel that aiming is too swift and smooth with a mouse. Maybe if some
> inertia was added to your gun movements it would stop people from
> spinning around and accurately hitting people with items that are
> fundamentally weighty. Or even a bit of random motion to the rifle to
> simulate the fact that it is hard to hold anything still. R6 did a
> good job of spraying your bullets everywhere if you fired whilst
> moving.
> iii) Postures. It would be nice to have a
> hide-behind-whatever-is-in-front command (aka 'cower'). For those
> moments when high explosives are flying around I would like a command
> which basically said 'hide and don't let much of my body show'. Hell,
> it should probably be a default when people drop prone. Add to this a
> 'peek up or around a corner' key and I'll stop whingeing. I just think
> it strange that seeking cover in an FPS usually also prevents you from
> shooting at the other guys. It would be nice to peek, pop up a little,
> snap off a few shots and drop down.
> iv) Actions. Maybe a command that lets me do things like climb walls
> or help team mates to climb a wall. I tend to get annoyed with FPS
> that can't allow a supposedly fit man to climb a 5' fence. Even if it
> took time to throw my kit over, I reckon I could do it.
> v) Fatigue. Hey, I know you're meant to be fit in these games, but I'm
> pretty certain that no-one can run at such a manic speed for such a
> length of time in these games and still be up to a firefight. I think
> it would add to the tension to run around behind a bunker, have to
> catch your breath for a few seconds and then burst through the door.
> Anything to stop people running around in circles all the time....
>
> Now I'm certain that there are plenty more options that could enhance
> the immersion factor of these games. I'm interested in seeing a game
> that really gives you a realistic perspective of what an infantryman
> would encounter. It would make it less of a constant action game and
> more one where a genuine concern for your safety and utilization of
> proper tactics would be paramount. Anyone care to add there features
> to this wish list or tell me how unreasonable I am for wanting these?
> Cheers
> Peter
>
>
ttammi
>ii) Aiming. I have no combat experience, and little shooting
>experience. (A few painful paintball sessions is about it). However I
>feel that aiming is too swift and smooth with a mouse. Maybe if some
>inertia was added to your gun movements it would stop people from
>spinning around and accurately hitting people with items that are
>fundamentally weighty. Or even a bit of random motion to the rifle to
I have pretty nice amount of combat/shooting experience with both
assault rifles and hand guns, mainly from army, and the computer game
that IMHO got the aiming part closest to the real thing was (and I am
sure many of you will be shocked when you hear this):
Trespasser!
That's right. In most FPS games aiming is far too easy, just like you
said. Your hand is 100% rock solid, your bullets travel in a perfectly
straight line which means you can shoot someone's ear off no matter if
he is two meters or 200 meters from you in the game, you can
effortlessly run in circles and shoot someone in the eye at the same
time etc.
I remember the first few tries in real life when I tried to shoot a
human sized board with a handgun that was like 10-15 meters away.
I couldn't believe that even if I thought I was aiming at the middle
of the board, sometimes I missed the whole board. From 10-15 meters
for christ sake! It seemed that if you moved your gun just a few
millimeters, you would miss the board by several meters.
Trespasser is about the only FPS game where I get the same feeling
that I really have to take my time aiming if I want to be sure it hits
the target, and also that it is pretty much useless trying to shoot an
animal from 100 meters with a handgun, but better take e.g. a rifle
instead. And moving and aiming at the same time is hard too.
Maybe Trespasser didn't get that many things right, but IMHO it has
probably the most realistic aiming compared to other FPS games.
>iii) Postures. It would be nice to have a
>hide-behind-whatever-is-in-front command (aka 'cower'). For those
>moments when high explosives are flying around I would like a command
>which basically said 'hide and don't let much of my body show'. Hell,
>it should probably be a default when people drop prone. Add to this a
>'peek up or around a corner' key and I'll stop whingeing. I just think
>it strange that seeking cover in an FPS usually also prevents you from
>shooting at the other guys. It would be nice to peek, pop up a little,
>snap off a few shots and drop down.
Well, I remember I did lots of that in Outlaws. Hiding behind a box
and popping up only to get one or two shots in the enemy.
>v) Fatigue. Hey, I know you're meant to be fit in these games, but I'm
>pretty certain that no-one can run at such a manic speed for such a
>length of time in these games and still be up to a firefight. I think
Again, Outlaws had something a bit like this (you got breathless if
you ran all the time), but the fatigue wore off pretty fast in it if
you walked or stayed still.
Another thing I would add is that you shouldn't be able to run
backwards as fast as forward. Jedi Knight had implemented this.
In fact, if you insist RUNNING backwards, I would like that you would
risk tripping that way (which costs you time). So if you want to go
backwards while shooting, you must walk, OR if you really want to run
away, you shouldn't be able to shoot accurately at your pursuing
enemies.
>it would add to the tension to run around behind a bunker, have to
>catch your breath for a few seconds and then burst through the door.
>Anything to stop people running around in circles all the time....
Yep. It is interesting that while Outlaws has done it, why haven't
other games, even from LucasArts, implemented as well?
ttammi
>Realism is all well and good, but I suspect people don't want to see too
>much of it. After all, it is a game, and people do want to be the heroes. In
>my opinion, if people played infantrymen and died within the first two
>minutes of contact, the game wouldn't sell too well.
That is true, but I think what we are after is adding elements from
reality that we can consider to be nice touches when we play the game.
Not necessarily trying to make a perfectly 100% realistic shooter.
If we take this to other games, if you remember the first 3D driving
games like Pole Position and Pitstop, they were all fine and all, but
later when they started to implement some more realistic touches in
driving games (like that you might slide out of the track if you drive
too fast in a corner, or if you lock your brakes in a turn), and
people felt those were great touches that made the whole gaming
experience more believable and overall better.
But as with driving games, I think there is a market for both
unrealistic shooters (for example Half-life, Unreal etc.) and more
"realistic" shooters.
Jesse LeFort
environment. Example. Im in a room with a bunch of people, i plant a
satchel charge on a beam holding the roof, charge explodes shatters the
beam, roof collapes and crushes anyone who gets caught underneath. Or im in
an office, someone hides behind a wooden desk. Now if i were playing any
other games, this desk would act as if it were Titanium and stop all my
shots and then spontaneously shatter, I would like for my bullets to
realistically puncture the desk killing the hiding person.
Jesse
Peter Frazier <pfra...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:37116dd5...@news.ozemail.com.au...
> It is heartening to note that some FPS are adding bigger slices of
> reality in their game physics. The arrival of one-shot/one-kill
> weapons, crouch/prone options and realistic weapon loadouts (as seen
> in Rainbow 6 and -to an extent- Delta Force) are moving the genre to
> where I'd like to see it. I'm tired of being a space marine who can
> take a shotgun blast to the head and only suffer an X% reduction to my
> health. Don't even mention the various acrobatic skills available in
> some games...
> But I'm still not happy with what is available. Rainbow 6 is the most
> realistic game out but there are still a few options to hope for. I'd
> like to hear what other people are waiting to see in an FPS. I'll
> start the ball rolling with (in no particular order)...
> i) Realistic damage modelling. I'd like to see light flesh wounds that
> impair your performance. i.e. leg wounds knocking you down and
> disabling your movement or arm wounds causing unsteadiness in your
> aim.
> ii) Aiming. I have no combat experience, and little shooting
> experience. (A few painful paintball sessions is about it). However I
> feel that aiming is too swift and smooth with a mouse. Maybe if some
> inertia was added to your gun movements it would stop people from
> spinning around and accurately hitting people with items that are
> fundamentally weighty. Or even a bit of random motion to the rifle to
> simulate the fact that it is hard to hold anything still. R6 did a
> good job of spraying your bullets everywhere if you fired whilst
> moving.
> iii) Postures. It would be nice to have a
> hide-behind-whatever-is-in-front command (aka 'cower'). For those
> moments when high explosives are flying around I would like a command
> which basically said 'hide and don't let much of my body show'. Hell,
> it should probably be a default when people drop prone. Add to this a
> 'peek up or around a corner' key and I'll stop whingeing. I just think
> it strange that seeking cover in an FPS usually also prevents you from
> shooting at the other guys. It would be nice to peek, pop up a little,
> snap off a few shots and drop down.
> iv) Actions. Maybe a command that lets me do things like climb walls
> or help team mates to climb a wall. I tend to get annoyed with FPS
> that can't allow a supposedly fit man to climb a 5' fence. Even if it
> took time to throw my kit over, I reckon I could do it.
> v) Fatigue. Hey, I know you're meant to be fit in these games, but I'm
> pretty certain that no-one can run at such a manic speed for such a
> length of time in these games and still be up to a firefight. I think
> it would add to the tension to run around behind a bunker, have to
> catch your breath for a few seconds and then burst through the door.
> Anything to stop people running around in circles all the time....
>
Rygar1
>pfra...@ozemail.com.au (Peter Frazier) wrote:
>
>I have pretty nice amount of combat/shooting experience with both
>assault rifles and hand guns, mainly from army, and the computer game
>that IMHO got the aiming part closest to the real thing was (and I am
>sure many of you will be shocked when you hear this):
>
>Trespasser!
The next natural question is was it intentional, or just lousy
programming? :)
Rygar1
Frazier) wrote:
>i) Realistic damage modelling. I'd like to see light flesh wounds that
>impair your performance. i.e. leg wounds knocking you down and
>disabling your movement or arm wounds causing unsteadiness in your
>aim.
This will come in time, let the technology catch up a bit more first.
>ii) I feel that aiming is too swift and smooth with a mouse. Maybe if some
>inertia was added to your gun movements it would stop people from
>spinning around and accurately hitting people with items that are
>fundamentally weighty.
It's a game though... I know if I turn around and aim at something,
I'm going to be *pissed* if the game arbitrarily decides to make me
miss :)
>iii) Postures.
Yeah, the standard kneel and prone firing stances would be nice.
Being able to brace your weapon on a short wall or something for added
aiming stability would be nice too.
>iv) Actions.
Yup, they should take some cues from Lara Croft :)
>v) Fatigue.
Well, if the guy is carrying 10 weapons like the Quake dude, this is a
bit hard to model :) It is a game after all... a military simulation
should see this, but Quake wouldn't be Quake with it.
>Now I'm certain that there are plenty more options that could enhance
>the immersion factor of these games.
There is a fine line between "immersion" and "realism", and the more
you approach the latter, the closer it gets to "simulation". It's a
fine line to cross, but granted, more can be done without taking any
fun out of the genre.
Peter Frazier
reality in their game physics. The arrival of one-shot/one-kill
weapons, crouch/prone options and realistic weapon loadouts (as seen
in Rainbow 6 and -to an extent- Delta Force) are moving the genre to
where I'd like to see it. I'm tired of being a space marine who can
take a shotgun blast to the head and only suffer an X% reduction to my
health. Don't even mention the various acrobatic skills available in
some games...
But I'm still not happy with what is available. Rainbow 6 is the most
realistic game out but there are still a few options to hope for. I'd
like to hear what other people are waiting to see in an FPS. I'll
start the ball rolling with (in no particular order)...
impair your performance. i.e. leg wounds knocking you down and
disabling your movement or arm wounds causing unsteadiness in your
aim.
feel that aiming is too swift and smooth with a mouse. Maybe if some
inertia was added to your gun movements it would stop people from
spinning around and accurately hitting people with items that are
simulate the fact that it is hard to hold anything still. R6 did a
good job of spraying your bullets everywhere if you fired whilst
moving.
iii) Postures. It would be nice to have a
hide-behind-whatever-is-in-front command (aka 'cower'). For those
moments when high explosives are flying around I would like a command
which basically said 'hide and don't let much of my body show'. Hell,
it should probably be a default when people drop prone. Add to this a
'peek up or around a corner' key and I'll stop whingeing. I just think
it strange that seeking cover in an FPS usually also prevents you from
shooting at the other guys. It would be nice to peek, pop up a little,
snap off a few shots and drop down.
iv) Actions. Maybe a command that lets me do things like climb walls
or help team mates to climb a wall. I tend to get annoyed with FPS
that can't allow a supposedly fit man to climb a 5' fence. Even if it
took time to throw my kit over, I reckon I could do it.
v) Fatigue. Hey, I know you're meant to be fit in these games, but I'm
pretty certain that no-one can run at such a manic speed for such a
length of time in these games and still be up to a firefight. I think
it would add to the tension to run around behind a bunker, have to
catch your breath for a few seconds and then burst through the door.
Anything to stop people running around in circles all the time....
Now I'm certain that there are plenty more options that could enhance
axys
GuildBoss
download the Action Quake2 modification. Fairly simple to set up. If
you need help, ask me.
>i) Realistic damage modelling. I'd like to see light flesh wounds that
>impair your performance. i.e. leg wounds knocking you down and
>disabling your movement or arm wounds causing unsteadiness in your
>aim.
AQ2 has a bit of this. Get hit in the legs and you stumble around. No
jumping, no running, no crouching. Until you Bandage... :-)
Take one bullet in the head and you DIE! Period. AQ2 Supports
locational damage such that a chest and head shots do most damage, leg
shots make you walk funny, head shots kill instantly, arms and stomach
hurt. *g*
Also, there are no healing power-ups in this game, either--when you
get shot you bleed. Sometimes slowly, sometimes quickly--depends on
where you get hit. You continue to bleed until you Bandage. Bandaging
takes 6 seconds and during this time you cannot fire a weapon. You may
move but that's about it...
>ii) Aiming.Or even a bit of random motion to the rifle to
>simulate the fact that it is hard to hold anything still. R6 did a
>good job of spraying your bullets everywhere if you fired whilst
>moving.
In AQ2 the more you move the farther off the mark your bullets will
fly. Run and your bullets go *everywhere*! Stay still and crouch and
your bullets land onand just a bit off the cursor. Of course, if you
have the Laser Sight this increases accuracy even when moving...
>iii) Postures. It would be nice to have a
>hide-behind-whatever-is-in-front command (aka 'cower'). For those
>moments when high explosives are flying around I would like a command
>which basically said 'hide and don't let much of my body show'. Hell,
>it should probably be a default when people drop prone.
In AQ2 when you crouch you take much less damage from grenades.
> Add to this a
>'peek up or around a corner' key and I'll stop whingeing. I just think
>it strange that seeking cover in an FPS usually also prevents you from
>shooting at the other guys. It would be nice to peek, pop up a little,
>snap off a few shots and drop down.
You can pop-up and fire in any game that has crouching. Peeking around
a corner has yet to be done.
>iv) Actions. Maybe a command that lets me do things like climb walls
>or help team mates to climb a wall. I tend to get annoyed with FPS
>that can't allow a supposedly fit man to climb a 5' fence. Even if it
>took time to throw my kit over, I reckon I could do it.
Would be nice. Good level designers always include a logical means of
getting over small obstructions. :-)
>v) Fatigue. Hey, I know you're meant to be fit in these games, but I'm
>pretty certain that no-one can run at such a manic speed for such a
>length of time in these games and still be up to a firefight. I think
>it would add to the tension to run around behind a bunker, have to
>catch your breath for a few seconds and then burst through the door.
>Anything to stop people running around in circles all the time....
This would be great. AQ2 does have the loational damage thing which
slows people down with leg wounds but no fatigue as of yet.
I agree with you. I really like more mundane, realistic FPS's with
real-world weapons and levels and tactics. AQ2 has some great weapons
too, all real-world stuff, MP/5, M4, sniper rifle, assault shotgun,
45 caliber pistols, etc.. An believe me, a shot from any one of these
does MAJOR damage!
Add to that unique items such as kevlar vest, laser sight, bandolier,
silencer, silent slippers, etc and this game is a real hoot. :-) Also,
you can only carry ONE special weapon and ONE special item at any
given time. You *cannot* carry a rocket launcer, grenade launcher,
railgun, machine gun, chaingun, and shotgun at the same time in AQ2!!
Oh, and you can play teamplay matches rather than just deathmatch. You
can send radio messages (.WAV files) to your team and/or partner, like
"I'm hit! Cover me!"..very much fun.
Give it a try--I think you'll like it.
To Reply via email, replace *nospam* with *guildboss*
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul H. Soares, Jr.
GuildBoss - Guild and Clan Management Utility for Win 9x/NT
http://www.guildboss.com
joelm...@geocities.com
pa...@nospam.com wrote:
> You can pop-up and fire in any game that has crouching. Peeking around
> a corner has yet to be done.
It was in 1994 in System Shock. More recently it was done in Thief. It's
just yet another innovation that Looking Glass has added to FPS games that
doesn't catch on for years much like those whole "walls at angles other than
90-degrees" and "various levels of elevation for the floor and ceiling"
things.
Joel Mathis
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
David Morton
> a corner has yet to be done.
What about Thief, and System Shock, eh?
Novanus
>It was in 1994 in System Shock. More recently it was done in Thief. It's
>just yet another innovation that Looking Glass has added to FPS games that
>doesn't catch on for years much like those whole "walls at angles other than
>90-degrees" and "various levels of elevation for the floor and ceiling"
>things.
>
>Joel Mathis
This baffles me. The lean NEEDS to be in all of these games from now
on. I can't understand why it hasn't been picked up after all this
time...
---
Novanus
Saam Tariverdi
You sinner!
Seriously though, Looking Glass has really contributed to numerous
'inventions' into the gaming industry. Let's take a look:
1) System Shock - Leaning around corners, having a first-person perspective
game with a nasty villain (Shodan), believeable charachers + plot, and on
heckuva atmosphere that completely immerses you into the environment like no
other game has done before.
2) Ultima Underworld - the first *true* smooth-scrolling game in the first
person perspective (came out about a month before Wolfenstein did), included
things like sloped hills, looking up and down and swimming; *years* before
it was implemented in the first FPS I can remember that contained looking
up/down, Heretic. Was the first game to completely give you the "you are
all alone in a huge environment" feeling, in the Stygian Abyss. The second
game to do this, (besides UW2), was System Shock and the reknowned Citadel
Space Station. :)
3) Thief - A completely new twist to the "shooter" genre- no shooting
involved (well except for arrows), but stealth and trickery makes this game
stand out above others. As much as Half-Life was great single-player play,
I felt Thief bought more to the FPS genre than Half Life did.
4) Terra Nova - the game that could have been one of the all-time greats,
were it not for a poor marketing/advertising campaign. Mission-based squad
combat where you actually *had* to use your squad members, the outdoor
engine was definitely before it's time, in my opinion. Reason? Simple- most
'outdoor' games were merely flight sims; Terra Nova actually had you ON the
terrain, running/jumping through rolling valleys, mountains, and lakes.
Talk about immersion. :)
Enough ranting now, let's hear what you all think of this.
--
Cheers,
Saam Tariverdi
------------------------------------------------------------
Webmaster,
Through the Looking Glass -> http://www.ttlg.com
<joelm...@geocities.com> wrote in message
news:7etd60$3t3$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com...
> In article <37121d82...@nntp.a001.sprintmail.com>,
> pa...@nospam.com wrote:
> > You can pop-up and fire in any game that has crouching. Peeking around
> > a corner has yet to be done.
>
> It was in 1994 in System Shock. More recently it was done in Thief. It's
> just yet another innovation that Looking Glass has added to FPS games that
> doesn't catch on for years much like those whole "walls at angles other
than
> 90-degrees" and "various levels of elevation for the floor and ceiling"
> things.
>
> Joel Mathis
>
Saam Tariverdi
Novanus <nov...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3713722a...@news.mw.mediaone.net...
It's
> >just yet another innovation that Looking Glass has added to FPS games
that
> >doesn't catch on for years much like those whole "walls at angles other
than
> >90-degrees" and "various levels of elevation for the floor and ceiling"
> >things.
> >
> >Joel Mathis
>
> on. I can't understand why it hasn't been picked up after all this
> time...
>
> ---
> Novanus
I think it's because most companies making first-person perspective games
tend to put more detail into the 'major' things, like Internet play (or
multiplayer as a whole), trying to even come up with a half-decent plot, and
what weapons to implement. Perhaps they all aren't talented enough like the
Looking Glass folks who actually focus more on the 'immersive' detail rather
than on the 'shall we add this feature to make it look better on magazine
ads?' details.
Saam Tariverdi
You sinner!
--
Cheers,
Saam Tariverdi
------------------------------------------------------------
Webmaster,
Through the Looking Glass -> http://www.ttlg.com
<joelm...@geocities.com> wrote in message
news:7etd60$3t3$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com...
> In article <37121d82...@nntp.a001.sprintmail.com>,
> pa...@nospam.com wrote:
> > You can pop-up and fire in any game that has crouching. Peeking around
> > a corner has yet to be done.
>
> It was in 1994 in System Shock. More recently it was done in Thief. It's
> just yet another innovation that Looking Glass has added to FPS games that
> doesn't catch on for years much like those whole "walls at angles other
than
> 90-degrees" and "various levels of elevation for the floor and ceiling"
> things.
>
> Joel Mathis
>
Saam Tariverdi
Novanus <nov...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3713722a...@news.mw.mediaone.net...
> On Mon, 12 Apr 1999 18:14:32 GMT, joelm...@geocities.com wrote:
>
It's
> >just yet another innovation that Looking Glass has added to FPS games
that
> >doesn't catch on for years much like those whole "walls at angles other
than
> >90-degrees" and "various levels of elevation for the floor and ceiling"
> >things.
> >
> >Joel Mathis
>
> on. I can't understand why it hasn't been picked up after all this
> time...
>
> ---
> Novanus
I think it's because most companies making first-person perspective games
tend to put more detail into the 'major' things, like Internet play (or
multiplayer as a whole), trying to even come up with a half-decent plot, and
what weapons to implement. Perhaps they all aren't talented enough like the
Looking Glass folks who actually focus more on the 'immersive' detail rather
than on the 'shall we add this feature to make it look better on magazine
ads?' details.
--
joelm...@geocities.com
"Saam Tariverdi" <sa...@icode.com> wrote:
> Hey hey Joel, you're calling System Shock an FPS now? :)
>
> You sinner!
Remember, I'm the "It's a great action/adventure, not an RPG" guy.
> Seriously though, Looking Glass has really contributed to numerous
> 'inventions' into the gaming industry. Let's take a look:
> 2) Ultima Underworld - the first *true* smooth-scrolling game in the first
> person perspective (came out about a month before Wolfenstein did), included
> things like sloped hills, looking up and down and swimming; *years* before
> it was implemented in the first FPS I can remember that contained looking
> up/down, Heretic. Was the first game to completely give you the "you are
> all alone in a huge environment" feeling, in the Stygian Abyss. The second
> game to do this, (besides UW2), was System Shock and the reknowned Citadel
> Space Station. :)
It even had jumping was something that didn't get into FPS for a while.
I think a good portion of the innovations in FPS can be traced back to their
games (which can be traced back to Dungeon Master which can be traced back to
Bard's Tale which can be traced back to Wizardry...)
spaceboy
>
> Hey hey Joel, you're calling System Shock an FPS now? :)
>
> You sinner!
>
> 'inventions' into the gaming industry. Let's take a look:
>
>
> 3) Thief - A completely new twist to the "shooter" genre- no shooting
> involved (well except for arrows), but stealth and trickery makes this game
> stand out above others. As much as Half-Life was great single-player play,
> I felt Thief bought more to the FPS genre than Half Life did.
Don't forget the use of sound either. Thief showed us that the sound in
a game *could* be just as crucial to any immersion factor as its
graphics.
I still can't believe that Half-Life beat Thief to almost every mag's
Best Use of Sound award last year.
spaceboy
GuildBoss
>> a corner has yet to be done.
>
I stand corrected--haven't played either of these games. Damn, and I
thought I owned 'em all!! :-O
Paul
Dan Schmidt
| Seriously though, Looking Glass has really contributed to numerous
| 'inventions' into the gaming industry. Let's take a look:
|
| 2) Ultima Underworld - the first *true* smooth-scrolling game in the
| first person perspective (came out about a month before Wolfenstein
| did), included things like sloped hills, looking up and down and
| swimming; *years* before it was implemented in the first FPS I can
| remember that contained looking up/down, Heretic. Was the first
| game to completely give you the "you are all alone in a huge
| environment" feeling, in the Stygian Abyss. The second game to do
| this, (besides UW2), was System Shock and the reknowned Citadel
| Space Station. :)
I actually think that the feature that took the longest for other
games to catch up with was realistic physics.
--
Dan Schmidt -> df...@harmonixmusic.com, df...@alum.mit.edu
Honest Bob & the http://www2.thecia.net/users/dfan/
Factory-to-Dealer Incentives -> http://www2.thecia.net/users/dfan/hbob/
Gamelan Galak Tika -> http://web.mit.edu/galak-tika/www/
spaceboy
>
> Hey hey Joel, you're calling System Shock an FPS now? :)
>
> You sinner!
>
> 'inventions' into the gaming industry. Let's take a look:
>
joelm...@geocities.com
"Saam Tariverdi" <sa...@icode.com> wrote:
> Hey hey Joel, you're calling System Shock an FPS now? :)
>
> You sinner!
Remember, I'm the "It's a great action/adventure, not an RPG" guy.
> Seriously though, Looking Glass has really contributed to numerous
> 'inventions' into the gaming industry. Let's take a look:
> 2) Ultima Underworld - the first *true* smooth-scrolling game in the first
> person perspective (came out about a month before Wolfenstein did), included
> things like sloped hills, looking up and down and swimming; *years* before
> it was implemented in the first FPS I can remember that contained looking
> up/down, Heretic. Was the first game to completely give you the "you are
> all alone in a huge environment" feeling, in the Stygian Abyss. The second
> game to do this, (besides UW2), was System Shock and the reknowned Citadel
> Space Station. :)
It even had jumping was something that didn't get into FPS for a while.
GuildBoss
ttammi
>In article <37121d82...@nntp.a001.sprintmail.com>,
> pa...@nospam.com wrote:
>> You can pop-up and fire in any game that has crouching. Peeking around
>> a corner has yet to be done.
>
>It was in 1994 in System Shock. More recently it was done in Thief. It's
>just yet another innovation that Looking Glass has added to FPS games that
>doesn't catch on for years much like those whole "walls at angles other than
>90-degrees" and "various levels of elevation for the floor and ceiling"
>things.
Yes, but is something like that really necessary in a first person
_shooter_? I don't see System Shock and especially Thief as shooters
anyway. In both you are sneaking around a lot, so you also have time
to master extra buttons for e.g. peeking around corners.
ttammi
>2) Ultima Underworld - the first *true* smooth-scrolling game in the first
>person perspective (came out about a month before Wolfenstein did), included
Just nitpicking a bit here: UUW was not even near the first smooth
scrolling first person adventure/RPG game. One game I remember from
the past was Mercenary and its sequels (or was Mercenary the name of
the sequel, I don't remember anymore). I think it appeared at least
for Commodore 64, Amiga and Atari ST.
It was an adventure game with vector graphics, there were even some
flight sections in it. In its time it really was a phenomenal
adventure game. Probably the first game ever to fit my idea of a truly
immersive virtual reality game (Dungeon Master, UUW and System Shock
were also such games).
>things like sloped hills, looking up and down and swimming; *years* before
>it was implemented in the first FPS I can remember that contained looking
>up/down, Heretic. Was the first game to completely give you the "you are
Yep. It has amazed also me how advanced the UUW 3D engine really was,
considering it came out around the same time as the predecessor of
Doom.
>4) Terra Nova - the game that could have been one of the all-time greats,
>were it not for a poor marketing/advertising campaign. Mission-based squad
>combat where you actually *had* to use your squad members, the outdoor
>engine was definitely before it's time, in my opinion. Reason? Simple- most
>'outdoor' games were merely flight sims; Terra Nova actually had you ON the
>terrain, running/jumping through rolling valleys, mountains, and lakes.
>Talk about immersion. :)
It also seemed like you could see miles away in Terra Nova. That was
very nice especially in that one mission where I shot long range
grenades to the enemy fortress from a hill far away, and watched with
my binoculars how the helpless enemy soldiers were running around not
understanding what was hitting them. ;-)
ttammi
>>I have pretty nice amount of combat/shooting experience with both
>>assault rifles and hand guns, mainly from army, and the computer game
>>that IMHO got the aiming part closest to the real thing was (and I am
>>sure many of you will be shocked when you hear this):
>>
>>Trespasser!
>
>The next natural question is was it intentional, or just lousy
>programming? :)
Good point, but who cares? ;-) Well at least one part in it was
intentional: you don't have a freely floating crosshair that lets you
do some real sharp shooting, you had to use the guns' own sights.
ttammi
>beam, roof collapes and crushes anyone who gets caught underneath. Or im in
>an office, someone hides behind a wooden desk. Now if i were playing any
>other games, this desk would act as if it were Titanium and stop all my
>shots and then spontaneously shatter, I would like for my bullets to
>realistically puncture the desk killing the hiding person.
Yeah, that's true. Like in SpecOps if the enemy has even one leaf in
front of him, you can't shoot him because those trees and their leafs
seem to be made of kevlar.
If I remember right Delta Force had a similar problem, your bullets or
grenade fragments wouldn't go through a tent , sheesh...
Never tried it myself if it was true, but I was told in the army that
a bullet from e.g. a standard assault rifle goes easily through a
brick wall or a pretty thick tree.
ttammi
>On Mon, 12 Apr 1999 04:35:55 GMT, pfra...@ozemail.com.au (Peter
>Frazier) wrote:
>
>>i) Realistic damage modelling. I'd like to see light flesh wounds that
>>impair your performance. i.e. leg wounds knocking you down and
>>disabling your movement or arm wounds causing unsteadiness in your
>>aim.
>
>This will come in time, let the technology catch up a bit more first.
Why would this be an issue of technology? I think something like this
would be easy to implement, and it was partly implemented in TF sniper
mod for Quake (you shot someone in the leg, he would run slower).
>>v) Fatigue.
>
>Well, if the guy is carrying 10 weapons like the Quake dude, this is a
>bit hard to model :) It is a game after all... a military simulation
>should see this, but Quake wouldn't be Quake with it.
Outlaws had fatigue, and it didn't destroy the gameplay.
ttammi
>This baffles me. The lean NEEDS to be in all of these games from now
>on. I can't understand why it hasn't been picked up after all this
>time...
Because I don't think it is that important in faster first person
shooters. Thief and System Shock aren't really shooters.
Ryan J Franklin
ttammi <tta...@netlife.fi> wrote:
>ryg...@home.ca (Rygar1) wrote:
>
>>>v) Fatigue.
>>
>>Well, if the guy is carrying 10 weapons like the Quake dude, this is a
>>bit hard to model :) It is a game after all... a military simulation
>>should see this, but Quake wouldn't be Quake with it.
>
>Outlaws had fatigue, and it didn't destroy the gameplay.
I seem to remember that the marshal seemed fairly out of shape (unable to
run for minutes at a time). And one of the minor reasons why I never
really enjoyed System Shock that much (I thought it was a fine game marred
by a horrible, slow, awkward user interface) was how quickly fatigue set
in. It seems like the current implementations of fatigue have been done
to make the game more difficult, and not out of any attempt to make the
game more "real"; either that, or game designers have been inordinately
fond of modeling the running endurance of asthmatic couch potatoes for
their first-person-shooter heroes.
Still, at the very least they could make fatigue an option on a menu; that
way both camps of players could be satisfied. People who love fast
action-movie-style play can turn off the fatigue and run around
constantly, and people who prefer "realism" can turn it on and enjoy the
extra challenge. It seems like a fairly trivial problem.
--
not sure if i'd ever bother to turn it on, but i might
fran...@u.arizona.edu
TragedyTrousers
>Try Action Quake2. Essentially, you need Quake2 and then you need to
>download the Action Quake2 modification. Fairly simple to set up. If
>you need help, ask me.
Seconded. AQ2 is the *perfect* mix of realism and playability, IMO.
I've played no other online games at all since I got it.
>In AQ2 when you crouch you take much less damage from grenades.
Your aim is also improved while crouching, to fit the 'sniping' pose.
>>v) Fatigue. Hey, I know you're meant to be fit in these games, but I'm
>
>This would be great. AQ2 does have the loational damage thing which
>slows people down with leg wounds but no fatigue as of yet.
Depends on the sort of game we're talking about. It could work in a SP
game, but would probably be a pain in the arse in a multiplayer game.
Realism is fine up to a point, but how the game plays should still be
the overriding priority.
>Oh, and you can play teamplay matches rather than just deathmatch. You
>can send radio messages (.WAV files) to your team and/or partner, like
>"I'm hit! Cover me!"..very much fun.
One 'realistic' touch in teamplay is that when you die, you stay dead
until one team has wiped out the other.
The dead cannot talk to the living, so the only way to tell who's still
alive is to communicate with your team (or count the dead bodies :).
Control methods were mentioned in the original post.
Most FPS support a variety of control methods, including analogue
joysticks. There's no way in the world that I would use anything other
than the mouse though, as it most closely represents the rapid aiming of
a handgun, as you can practice on a typical arcade gun game (its not
real life I know, but you get the idea :).
Admittedly, 360 degree turns in an instant are a bit over the top, but
I'd still rather use a mouse than, say, an N64 style arrangement.
--
TragedyTrousers.
TragedyTrousers
>Just nitpicking a bit here: UUW was not even near the first smooth
>scrolling first person adventure/RPG game. One game I remember from
>the past was Mercenary and its sequels (or was Mercenary the name of
>the sequel, I don't remember anymore). I think it appeared at least
>for Commodore 64, Amiga and Atari ST.
You remember correctly. :)
Damocles was the sequel to Mercenary, both by Paul Woakes of NovaGen (no
idea why I can remember that).
I think the C64 version of Mercenary was the first out, followed by a
ZXSpectrum version (and others). Mercenary was an *amazing* game,
especially considering memory restrictions. Damocles was probably even
more impressive, having an entire solar system, explorable in what
seemed like a 1:1 scale.
Can't remember what Mercenary3 was called...
Pah! All these FPS games of today are all shamlessly stealing from ZX81
3D monster maze.
--
TragedyTrousers.
Rocker
>
> In article <7eu1dn$mec$1...@solaris.cc.vt.edu>,
> "Saam Tariverdi" <sa...@icode.com> wrote:
> > Hey hey Joel, you're calling System Shock an FPS now? :)
> >
> > You sinner!
>
> Remember, I'm the "It's a great action/adventure, not an RPG" guy.
>
> > Seriously though, Looking Glass has really contributed to numerous
> > 'inventions' into the gaming industry. Let's take a look:
>
> > person perspective (came out about a month before Wolfenstein did), included
> > it was implemented in the first FPS I can remember that contained looking
> > up/down, Heretic. Was the first game to completely give you the "you are
> > game to do this, (besides UW2), was System Shock and the reknowned Citadel
> > Space Station. :)
>
> It even had jumping was something that didn't get into FPS for a while.
>
> I think a good portion of the innovations in FPS can be traced back to their
> games (which can be traced back to Dungeon Master which can be traced back to
> Bard's Tale which can be traced back to Wizardry...)
>
Balanco
>It is heartening to note that some FPS are adding bigger slices of
>reality in their game physics. The arrival of one-shot/one-kill
>weapons, crouch/prone options and realistic weapon loadouts (as seen
I want to see more realistic vheicles in games, such as a
train, that actuaLt seems like a real train, rather
than an electric train set. I want it to feel like you
are traveling through the real world (for example, it takes
about 10 minutes to go to the next station). And, I'd like
to see constant scenery and enviroments rather than going
to one level to the next. Scince games are becomming
more sophisticated,larger
worlds can be created. Even if the engines
can't quite do a constant 40 mile wide
land scape, tricks can be used to get around
this such as layring parts of the level
on top eachother, and using visual tricks that
make the level seem larger, and be able to see into and
seemly "teleport" objects into the various layres.
Just like in some Doom add ons, they can also put in
"false" senery at the points where the player
changes levels.
_____________________________________________________________
Remove all of the junk in my address and change Q to C
to reply via e-mail
TragedyTrousers
dedicated to Mercenary. Cult following can pop up anywhere, I guess. :)
Here's a link to a good one, if anyone's interested:
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/7150/merce.htm
--
TragedyTrousers.
Simon
I was about to answer you tha Mercenary 3 was called "The Dion Crisis",
but I just saw you posted the URL of my site !
Oh, well, seems I answered anyway ! :)
How good Mercenary was...
Simon.
TragedyTrousers
> I was about to answer you tha Mercenary 3 was called "The Dion Crisis",
>but I just saw you posted the URL of my site !
> Oh, well, seems I answered anyway ! :)
> How good Mercenary was...
Yep, a one-off original like Mercenary probably wouldn't get a green
light in todays market - its not a car racer, FPS or RTS. Where's the
market in that? :)
I loved all the screenshots on your site, brought back a lot of old
memories. Damocles was fantastic too, although I was too thick to work
out what half of the puzzles were and spent a lot of the game wandering
about.
Was Mercenary a global thing, or did it only really become popular in
the UK?
--
TragedyTrousers.
Simon
> Yep, a one-off original like Mercenary probably wouldn't get a green
> light in todays market - its not a car racer, FPS or RTS. Where's the
> market in that? :)
It's a shame that Psygnosis did not release the PC version of Damocles !
What a waste.
> Was Mercenary a global thing, or did it only really become popular in
> the UK?
I'm French, so one can say it was popular in France, too :) In fact,
IMO, Mercenary has been a worldwide hit, and Damocles certainly was, too
(I have many mails from German people, and from everywhere else - New
Zeland, Canada, etc !).
I'm afraid Mercenary 3 had distribution problems (I had to buy my copy
in the UK), that's why many people never heared of it.
I do hope to see a game like Mercenary again on my computer. I thought
Half-Life was on this way, but after a few hours of play, it's really as
any other Quake game (IMHO of course !!!).
Simon.
TragedyTrousers
>> Was Mercenary a global thing, or did it only really become popular in
>> the UK?
>
> I'm French, so one can say it was popular in France, too :) In fact,
>IMO, Mercenary has been a worldwide hit, and Damocles certainly was, too
>(I have many mails from German people, and from everywhere else - New
>Zeland, Canada, etc !).
I suppose with so many popular games coming from the US and Japan
nowadays, when a great game appears from Britain, we have a tendency to
think of it as 'our secret', when its not always the case.
> I'm afraid Mercenary 3 had distribution problems (I had to buy my copy
>in the UK), that's why many people never heared of it.
I never saw it on sale here, although I was only looking half-heartedly.
I can't remember why now, as I can't believe any amount of negative
reviews would have put me off completely after Merc & Damocles.
> I do hope to see a game like Mercenary again on my computer. I thought
>Half-Life was on this way, but after a few hours of play, it's really as
>any other Quake game (IMHO of course !!!).
I just love games that maintain the illusion of an artificial world that
you can explore at your leisure.
Turbo Esprit on the spectrum was another one of my favorites from the
time, as the illusion of driving around a living city was so well
realised. Even if the gameplay itself had little depth to speak of, the
'world' in itself was convincing.
I am currently suffering from an addiction to ActionQuakeII though, so
just watch it, OK? :)))
--
TragedyTrousers.