AS400:MYTHS OR FACTS?
boo...@ibm.net
In <dajhe.113...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu>, on 06/26/98
at 12:18 AM, da...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (Dajiang He) said:
>RPG is an easy language;
true. You can write decent code early in the learning curve.
>as/400 is not very chellanging.
False. It'll make you crazy/
workign on AS/400 is relatively boring compared with other types of
>computer work;
yuppers. The darn thing is predictable, reliable, and always up. No
fun there, is there?
>people in as/400 generally have less formal education in computer science
The older ones, true. the younger ones, false. (When I got my formal
education there was no such thing as Computer Science. That doesn't mean
I am less intelligent.)
>and less talented;
Just as a thought... You know who _did_ make the computers don't you?
It wasn't Computer Science graduates.)
>;as400, like mainframe, is generally declining, maybe slowly,
>eventaually.
Both comments are false. Neither are generally declining, certainly not
the AS/400. Rumor has it that fourth quarter 1997 IBM was air shipping 25
trailer loads a day of AS/400 gear. That is not a dying product.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
boo...@ibm.net
Booth Martin
-----------------------------------------------------------
Dajiang He
These are some remarks I heard from some people who are working or will work
as computer professionals:
RPG is an easy language;
as/400 is not very chellanging.
workign on AS/400 is relatively boring compared with other types of computer
work;
people in as/400 generally have less formal education in computer science and
less talented;
;as400, like mainframe, is generally declining, maybe slowly,
eventaually.
some people even dont know what is as/400.
Are these myths, or facts?
AzucarNYC
>some people even dont know what is as/400
Above is the last line of your post. This should have been the 1st line and it
should have been preceeded by "What (last line) are saying".
Can I ask you in which NT newsgroup did you hear these comments?
William Batista-Lopez
"Hatred is the worst move"
Pete
Dajiang He wrote:
I've heard these remarks about Unix
C is the simplest language but has no functionality and is one of the easiest to
make unmaintainable.
Unix in all variations is extremely challenging.
Only mildly interesting projects (bar academia), such as data-warehousing,
cad-cam, and internet hosting hold developers' attention.
Many Unix guys are extremely talented, devoted zealots, and the most vociferous
are students who aren't earning.
The AS/400, like the mainframe, helps us all keep bank accounts and credit
cards, and lower-cost consumer goods, including PCs.
Most people have never heard of the AS/400.
I believe them to be relatively true
Greg Leister
"some people even dont know what is as/400."
It is obvious that the people making the remarks ARE the people who don't
know what the AS/400 or RPG is.
Dajiang He <da...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu> wrote in article
<dajhe.113...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu>...
Richard Knechtel
Dajiang He wrote:
>
> These are some remarks I heard from some people who are working or will work
> as computer professionals:
>
> RPG is an easy language;
> as/400 is not very chellanging.
> workign on AS/400 is relatively boring compared with other types of computer
> work;
> people in as/400 generally have less formal education in computer science and
> less talented;
Actually people working in M$ products have this problem, why else would
they stay with an unstable, unsecure all around garbage OS.
> ;as400, like mainframe, is generally declining, maybe slowly,
> eventaually.
>
> some people even dont know what is as/400.
>
> Are these myths, or facts?
These comments OBVIOUSLY came from assimilated M$ people.
These were obviously made to start a hostile discussion.
Regards,
--
Richard Knechtel
richard .dot knechtel @at eds .dot com
EDS
(Systems Engineer/System Administrator)
(Aspiring AS/400 GURU)
(Aspiring Linux GURU)
(Aspiring Visual Basic Programmer)
The contents of this message express only MY opinion.
This message does not necessarily reflect the policy or views of
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made in this posting resides solely and completely with the
ME.
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See US Code Title 47, Sec.227(a)(2)(B), Sec.227(b)(1)(C)
and Sec.227(b)(3)(C).
Dave Shaw
My statements are personal opinions, treat them as such.
Dajiang He wrote in message ...
>These are some remarks I heard from some people who are working or will
work
>as computer professionals:
>
>RPG is an easy language;
If one understands the paradigm, it is pretty easy to learn enough about RPG
to do useful work quickly. In its entirety, though, RPG is not an
especially easy language, particularly when compared to "teaching" languages
such as Pascal and Modula-2.
>as/400 is not very chellanging.
That is entirely dependent on the shop one works in, and has nothing to do
with the computer itself. The /400 makes it easier to operate a
non-challenging shop, perhaps that's why so many of them have AS/400's, but
the AS/400 is as challenging - or not - as the people managing it make it.
>workign on AS/400 is relatively boring compared with other types of
computer
>work;
Again, that's an environment issue, not an AS/400-specific issue, although
the reliability of the /400 does take out some of the "system is down
crisis" excitement.
>people in as/400 generally have less formal education in computer science
and
>less talented;
Less formal education in computer science - true. Less formal education -
false. Less talent - false. AS/400 programmers are mostly BUSINESS
programmers - they don't know, and don't need to know, how to write a
compiler, but they can make a General Ledger, Payroll, Accounts Payable or
Receivable, Warehousing, Purchasing, and/or Material Planning system sing.
>;as400, like mainframe, is generally declining, maybe slowly,
>eventaually.
The sales figures and the shortage of programmers for the /400 don't seem to
bear that out at this time. Even the Gartner Group continues to say that
the /400 is viable for at least another 5 years - they've been rolling that
forecast another year every year since the /400 was introduced. Most of the
people who make this claim are either in the Unix camp or the NT everywhere
camp. The AS/400 is the traditional threat to Unix (some say the Unix
market is where it is because the AS/400 killed off or marginalized the
proprietary minis of the '80's, like DG's MV series, DEC VAX, Prime, Wang,
and HP 3000), so naturally its proponents claim weakness in the /400. The
NT everywhere people are just so convinced of MicroSoft's market clout that
they believe that NT will take over the world no matter what else is out
there - not likely in my opinion until MicroSoft makes NT implementations
less "exciting" (I don't like the scars that I'm getting from the two that
we're doing).
>some people even dont know what is as/400.
Yep. Many, many people don't recognize the name. Of those who do, many
believe all sorts of ridiculous garbage about it, often worse than what
you've asked about. To quote many others wiser than I, "It's the marketing,
IBM!".
>Are these myths, or facts?
If you've read this far, you know from my answers that I believe that they
are a mix of both.
--
Dave Shaw, General Nutrition, Greenville, SC (just down the road from BMW -
Bubba Makes Wheels :)
The opinions expressed may not be my employer's unless I'm sufficiently
persuasive...
Richard Renshaw
In article <dajhe.113...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
da...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu says...
> These are some remarks I heard from some people who are working or will work
> as computer professionals:
>
> RPG is an easy language;
And C++/Powerbuilder/Java etc. aren't?
> as/400 is not very chellanging.
Perhaps - but if you like spending your time figuring out work-arounds
for OS bugs, HW/SW incompatibilities, etc.., then M$ is looking for
you...
> workign on AS/400 is relatively boring compared with other types of computer
> work;
If you consider fundamental flaws in a sub-standard OS, _regular_ SW
crashes, HW failures and generally poor support exciting, you're right.
> people in as/400 generally have less formal education in computer science and
> less talented;
Less talented/educated than who? My plumber has a PHD in psychology (no
joke...) I miss the relevance.
> ;as400, like mainframe, is generally declining, maybe slowly,
> eventaually.
Actually, mainframes (a large AS/400 may even be considered a mainframe)
are on the rise again. You've never tried to manage 450 NT/95/3.1
workstations. You can manage 10 times that number of dumb terminals with
one tenth the effort (and _cost_).
> some people even dont know what is as/400.
>
> Are these myths, or facts?
>
If their grammar and spelling are half as atrocious as yours (Ohio
State?), then that should tell you something about their opinions.
As for the last statement, people usually end up on an AS/400 for
purely business reasons - It's (arguably) the best platform to do
business on.
Don't forget: the primary purpose of education is to learn how to
learn...
Regards,
Richard
Neil Wood
Dajiang He wrote in message ...
work
>as computer professionals:
>
>RPG is an easy language;
Yeah RPG is easy. Syntax of most languages are easy. It's the application
of the language and syntax which is challenging. That's true in every
environment. I would like to know what language/system these "some people"
find challenging because of the system itself.
>workign on AS/400 is relatively boring compared with other types of
computer
>work;
Well, if boring means things are stable and you don't have the troubles that
other environments have, then well yes it is. I guess it depends on what you
find exciting or boring. I personally enjoy providing solutions to business
needs of others and love it when a user says "their job is way easier now",
and "I can't see how we got along with out this application". This is no
matter what environment I am programming in. Systems themselves aren't
"boring", it's your personal attitude.
I suppose developing for someone like ID software and working on Quake III
may be a little more exciting, fun testing anyway. :)
>people in as/400 generally have less formal education in computer science
and
>less talented;
Less talented than who? Although I have no figures for the formal
education, I wouldn't say AS/400 programmers are any less talented, just
different problems to be solved. Those working on NASA fail safe real time
systems focus on that problem. Those working on coordinating the
transportation/logistics of a multi-million dollar distribution business are
focusing on that problem.
>;as400, like mainframe, is generally declining, maybe slowly,
>eventually.
Don't see it. It's a great server, and is way ahead of the game when it
comes to scalability.
>some people even dont know what is as/400.
This is the only fact you list. Some people even within IBM don't know what
an AS/400 is. It's related to poor marketing and poor application in the
educational channels. It's a business server. It's meant to crank out
business functions day in and day out. Year in and year out.
--
Neil Wood
Programmer Analyst
IBM Certified Specialist
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John Dobson
Dave, thanks for some excellent statements. Your statements about out
business perspective really hit home. I think people forget that IBM's
middle name is Business, and that the AS/400 is a machine designed to let
developers focus on solving business problems, not technical ones. Having
worked with Novell, NT, UNIX and the AS/400, I think the 400 does this best
of the four.
And as for us - I think people with experience in the 400 world are in a
unique business position. We are lucky enough to work in cross-functional
areas of medium to large business where we learn a lot about technical AND
business stuff. Micro-/networking people typically work for small
businesses or in a single functional area of a large company. Mainframe
developers usually work in a single functional area of a huge business. So,
yes, we may not have the sheer techno-guru skills as our peers who work with
other platforms. But we are the people who are trusted with running the
business. Who do you think will be around for the long haul?
John Dobson
Dave Shaw wrote in message ...
>My statements are personal opinions, treat them as such.
>
>Dajiang He wrote in message ...
>>These are some remarks I heard from some people who are working or will
>work
>>as computer professionals:
>>
>>RPG is an easy language;
>
>If one understands the paradigm, it is pretty easy to learn enough about
RPG
>to do useful work quickly. In its entirety, though, RPG is not an
>especially easy language, particularly when compared to "teaching"
languages
>such as Pascal and Modula-2.
>
>>as/400 is not very chellanging.
>
>That is entirely dependent on the shop one works in, and has nothing to do
>with the computer itself. The /400 makes it easier to operate a
>non-challenging shop, perhaps that's why so many of them have AS/400's, but
>the AS/400 is as challenging - or not - as the people managing it make it.
>
>>workign on AS/400 is relatively boring compared with other types of
>computer
>>work;
>
>Again, that's an environment issue, not an AS/400-specific issue, although
>the reliability of the /400 does take out some of the "system is down
>crisis" excitement.
>
>>people in as/400 generally have less formal education in computer science
>and
>>less talented;
>
>Less formal education in computer science - true. Less formal education -
>false. Less talent - false. AS/400 programmers are mostly BUSINESS
>programmers - they don't know, and don't need to know, how to write a
>compiler, but they can make a General Ledger, Payroll, Accounts Payable or
>Receivable, Warehousing, Purchasing, and/or Material Planning system sing.
>
>>;as400, like mainframe, is generally declining, maybe slowly,
>>eventaually.
>
>The sales figures and the shortage of programmers for the /400 don't seem
to
>bear that out at this time. Even the Gartner Group continues to say that
>the /400 is viable for at least another 5 years - they've been rolling that
>forecast another year every year since the /400 was introduced. Most of
the
>people who make this claim are either in the Unix camp or the NT everywhere
>camp. The AS/400 is the traditional threat to Unix (some say the Unix
>market is where it is because the AS/400 killed off or marginalized the
>proprietary minis of the '80's, like DG's MV series, DEC VAX, Prime, Wang,
>and HP 3000), so naturally its proponents claim weakness in the /400. The
>NT everywhere people are just so convinced of MicroSoft's market clout that
>they believe that NT will take over the world no matter what else is out
>there - not likely in my opinion until MicroSoft makes NT implementations
>less "exciting" (I don't like the scars that I'm getting from the two that
>we're doing).
>
>>some people even dont know what is as/400.
>
>Yep. Many, many people don't recognize the name. Of those who do, many
>believe all sorts of ridiculous garbage about it, often worse than what
>you've asked about. To quote many others wiser than I, "It's the
marketing,
>IBM!".
>
>>Are these myths, or facts?
>
Jim Welsh
nina jones wrote:
> > >RPG is an easy language;
> > true. You can write decent code early in the learning curve.
>
> what's easy? i like it because it does provide some organization, and it
> isn't has wordy as cobol. i have worked some with basic programs that gave a
> whole new meaning to the term spaghetti code.
>
> > >as/400 is not very chellanging.
> > False. It'll make you crazy/
>
> well, it is reliable. you don't spend all your time putting out fires - at
> least from the system itself! but there is so much to it. i can spend hours
> just browsing thru the verb commands!
>
> > workign on AS/400 is relatively boring compared with other types of
> > >computer work;
> > yuppers. The darn thing is predictable, reliable, and always up. No
> > fun there, is there?
>
> we have a client in california that got part of their business on a p/c
> network. it seems that every time i talk to them, the contract programmer
> that babys the network is always there. and i'm 1500 miles away, in oklahoma,
> and the as/400 runs like a champ. that's the kind of boring i can take.
>
> > >people in as/400 generally have less formal education in computer science
> > The older ones, true. the younger ones, false. (When I got my formal
> > education there was no such thing as Computer Science. That doesn't mean
> > I am less intelligent.)
>
> are you sure?? (joke)
>
> when i graduated, in 1975, the college i went to was the only one in oklahoma
> that had a graduate degree in computer science.
>
> > >and less talented;
> > Just as a thought... You know who _did_ make the computers don't you?
> > It wasn't Computer Science graduates.)
>
> i would debate that. we need skills on the as/400, and also skills on the
> p/c.
>
> > >;as400, like mainframe, is generally declining, maybe slowly,
> > >eventaually.
> > Both comments are false. Neither are generally declining, certainly not
> > the AS/400. Rumor has it that fourth quarter 1997 IBM was air shipping 25
> > trailer loads a day of AS/400 gear. That is not a dying product.
>
> about 10 years ago, i heard a speech from the head of a major manufacturer of
> accounting software (MSA i think) about the 'death of the minicomputer' he
> was laughing about a funeral they had for it, complete with casket and
> everything. they've been saying that for years, and the as/400 is even
> stronger than it's predecessor, the system 36!
>
> ps - did you get the cd? it got mailed earlier this week.
>
> nj
the sytem/36 is a complete BOAT ANCHOR...
"even sronger than it's predecssor"
I certainly hope so!
besides...
System/38 is where CPF came from...and that system is a boat anchor too!
I'm pulling for the 400...
Interesting times indeed...
--
Jim W
http://www.netcom.com/~jimwelsh/welcome/welcome.html
mailto:jimw...@ix.netcom.com
Chris
... yada yada yada
There are more AS/400's in use today than multi-user versions of UNIX
There are more lines of code written in RPG than any other language
except possibly COBOL.
More people sign on to an AS/400 than any other platform (in business).
If Rochester broke of from IBM, it would be the second largest computer
company in the world, second only to IBM itself.
Statitics gathered from Gartner Group and IBM press.
nina jones
Bradley V. Stone
da...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (Dajiang He) wrote:
>These are some remarks I heard from some people who are working or will work
>as computer professionals:
>
>RPG is an easy language;
Easier than most, depending on you point of view. That's because it
does all the stuff that takes 100 lines of code in another language
(I'm exaggerating and speaking of DB operations) for you behind the
scences. The database arcitechture blows almost everything else away,
which is one reason RPG (made to work with DB/400) is easy.
>as/400 is not very chellanging.
Ha! They just didn't know where to look! Most people that have only
a clue about the AS/400 believe they can just know one this and get
by. This one thing is F4. that's like saying I can manuver on UNIX
without knowing anything about it by knowing HELP or something
similar.
>workign on AS/400 is relatively boring compared with other types of computer
>work;
Again, they didn't know were to look. Or maybe it's because the
AS/400 is so stable, they were amazed that they weren't putting out
fires all day. I find working on the AS/400 very satisfying,
especially now with the improvements in the RPG language that are
being made. I constantly updating programs to work with these types
of features where they apply.
>people in as/400 generally have less formal education in computer science and
>less talented;
Well, this MIGHT be true, but I'd have to see numbers. This does in
no way mean they don't know what they are doing. You can't be taught
logic. Either you have the nack, or you don't. Either you're a
programmer, or a coder. Either your worth 40k or 100k. :)
Things that might influence this are the quantity of jobs, and people
getting offered jobs before school is out. Then they learn on the
job, which is FAR more valuable that any school could provide. I
value my 11 week internship during school more than ALL of my
schooling put together.
I was pulled out of school 9 weeks early to work. My instructors saw
no problem with this (they told me, "That's what we're training you
for!") and actually classified my first 9 weeks of working "On the Job
Training" for which I received credits and a grade. The employer
filled out a survey every so often on my progress.
>;as400, like mainframe, is generally declining, maybe slowly,
>eventaually.
Bah! People read TIME and Newsweek too much. I wonder what type of
computers Time/Life uses..... I'd guess they have an AS/400 or ES9000
or something similar in place... and there's little chance NT servers
could take up that type of slack. (Notice I said servers)
>
>some people even dont know what is as/400.
Some people also don't know what UNIX is. My mom doesn't..heheh, but
she does know AS/400! And my dad uses one at work! Although he does
know UNIX and CRAY as well, since his brother worked with them.
Some people also don't know that Deja News exits.. that doesn't make
it any worse than it is. It's one of the most valuable tools for
receiving information on the web. (Whether that information is good
or not, is another story. But it sure does do a good job finding it!)
>
>Are these myths, or facts?
Some myths, some facts. It is a fact that not everyone knows what an
AS/400 is. It is a myth that RPG is an easy language. To someone
that's done FORTRAN or Pascal, it would be hard, for a while a least.
Then again, a programmer can learn any language because all they need
to learn in the Syntax.
Anyways, I bit. Was this a diliberate attempt at trolling? Oh well.
Bradley V. Stone
http://prairie.lakes.com/~bvstone
"I wouldn't take that road in a mini-van."
nina jones
> the sytem/36 is a complete BOAT ANCHOR...
>
> "even sronger than it's predecssor"
>
> I certainly hope so!
>
> besides...
>
> System/38 is where CPF came from...and that system is a boat anchor too!
>
> I'm pulling for the 400...
>
> Interesting times indeed...
well, every dog has it's day. maybe 'popular' would be a better word than stronger.
nj
tho...@inorbit.com
Dajiang He:
Yes and no.
In article <dajhe.113...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
da...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (Dajiang He) wrote:
>
> These are some remarks I heard from some people who are working or will work
> as computer professionals:
>
> RPG is an easy language;
Fortunately, RPG is long gone into history, although you can still write RPG
programs using current compilers. RPG was very easy. RPG II was more complex,
and RPG III added a lot more. Nowadays, good ILE RPG (in RPG IV syntax) can be
just about as "easy" as C.
> as/400 is not very chellanging.
Depends on what you're writing. We're working on a project with a business
partner who uses UNIX systems. The project is to allow their customers to
enter orders through them into our AS/400. Communications are socket oriented
and have some pretty strict performance standards. They've implemented the
procedures a few times with other vendors and provided us with all of their
specs and requirements. No one in our shop has done any sockets programming
before. We were ready to go live two weeks ago (and actually believed that
was the project completion date); they still haven't finished.
I guess they still have a few "challenges" to overcome.
> workign on AS/400 is relatively boring compared with other types of computer
> work;
"...other types of computer work"? Which means...? Non-business programming?
or other platforms? And again, it depends on what you're writing. I'm
normally not an applications programmer, more of a systems programmer. So, I
sometimes think my job is a bit less "boring". But the applications guys were
sure excited when we finished our side of that previous project and the UNIX
people 'weren't ready'. _WE_ got a few days off.
> people in as/400 generally have less formal education in computer science and
> less talented;
Part one (computer science) is probably true overall. It just doesn't apply
as much for AS/400 applications. With integrated database, communications and
security, you don't need a BS in CS. That doesn't mean a solid education in
relational database design, for example, has no place; it just means you can
get by without it. And quite well.
The second part, though, I'm not so sure. If it's narrowed to a talent in
computer science specifically, maybe so. But a talent for applying computer
technology to business problems is more valuable for us anyway. Just because
two talents may be different doesn't mean one is more or less than the other.
I often think that computer science grads have no talent for AS/400s.
> ;as400, like mainframe, is generally declining, maybe slowly,
> eventaually.
Too general. AS/400 numbers are still growing. But as an overall percentage
when compared to, say, NT installations, probably true. Not that that's a
meaningful statistic. The ratio of AS/400s to Windows 3.1 machines dropped
drastically while Win3.1 was growing; I suspect the reverse is true today.
The AS/400 to Win95 ratio is still dropping, but that'll reverse as Win98
comes along.
In other words, the total number of computer systems is constantly going up.
New forms come along and increase their percentages, then decline. I expect
AS/400 technology to hold its own for years to come. And as its UNIX
abilities continue to expand,... well, how should an AS/400 be counted when
it can be legally branded "UNIX Inside"? It's pretty close today. Would the
UNIX numbers then increase by half a million systems?
>
> some people even dont know what is as/400.
Unfortunately, I keep running into AS/400 programmers that the same thing can
be said about. "Stream file? What's that?" or "What do you mean 'directory'?"
If one in a hundred knew what a 'user-written file system' or 'user-defined
communications' was, I'd be surprised.
On the other hand, "some people don't know what Windows 95 is". _SOME_ think
it's a 32-bit operating system. _SOME_ think that Windows NT doesn't require
DOS. So, what's the point?
>
> Are these myths, or facts?
In short, yes and no.
>
Tom Liotta
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J. Scott McPhee
On Fri, 26 Jun 1998 02:18:00, boo...@ibm.net wrote:
> workign on AS/400 is relatively boring compared with other types of
> >computer work;
> yuppers. The darn thing is predictable, reliable, and always up. No
> fun there, is there?
>
Our AS/400 just crash for the first time in four years of continuous
running
and that was probably due to a bug in V4R3 of the OS.
Regards
J. Scott McPhee
Francis Lapeyre
Dajiang He wrote in message ...
>These are some remarks I heard from some people who are working or will
work
>as computer professionals:
>
>RPG is an easy language;
I've been using RPG (RPG II, RPG/400, and RPG IV) since 1992. What's wrong
with "easy", anyway? I get paid all this money to do something I love. To
me, it's easy.
RPG with the AS/400 is designed to do the low-level database I/O without the
programmer having to know all of the details (unlike C on a UNIX box). You
call it "easy". I call it "a solid, standardized, and robust design that the
programmer can't screw up".
>as/400 is not very chellanging [sic].
I'm presented with new challenges every single day. The difference is, I'm
not wasting time figuring out what obtuse UNIX-like commands do. Instead,
I'm challenged by solving my company's problems. Not my OS's.
>workign on AS/400 is relatively boring compared with other types of
computer
>work;
I work from 7:30 to 4:00 Monday through Friday. If you consider anything
less than a 12-hour workday "boring", fine. I plead guilty. (I do have a
50-minute commute each way, though. Happy now?)
>people in as/400 generally have less formal education in computer science
and
>less talented;
My employer begs to disagree about the "less talented" part. I have 3 years
of college, and 9 months of technical school training in the AS/400 and
SYNON/2E.
>;as400, like mainframe, is generally declining, maybe slowly,
>eventaually.
AS/400 is not declining. There are 500,000 systems out there. My company has
5 of them.
>some people even dont know what is as/400.
Apparently, that includes yourself. I knew what an AS/400 was from Day One.
boo...@ibm.net
We had three crashes from our new black box in the first few months. The
last word we got back, and no further troubles either, was that the CD-ROM
drive had the PC habit of needing a little bit of memory to check to see
if there was anything in the drawer, and then not releasing all of the
memory. Not a bad solution if you shut off your PC I suppose, but since
the AS/400 stays up, the memory eventually gets wasted and the machine
falls over. The work-around was to put a CD-ROM in the drive and leave it
there, then the drive wouldn't have to check.
In <pPedx42OWm3D-p...@ingw129-37-124-19.ca.us.ibm.net>, on
06/27/98
at 01:01 PM, mcp...@spamkilller.ibm.net (J. Scott McPhee) said:
>On Fri, 26 Jun 1998 02:18:00, boo...@ibm.net wrote:
>> workign on AS/400 is relatively boring compared with other types of
>> >computer work;
>> yuppers. The darn thing is predictable, reliable, and always up. No
>> fun there, is there?
>>
>Our AS/400 just crash for the first time in four years of continuous
>running
>and that was probably due to a bug in V4R3 of the OS.
>Regards
>J. Scott McPhee
boo...@ibm.net
Man, I hate religious wars. Mostly because they make me batty.
Write programs that run a business, pay payroll, and keep track of
Accounts Recievable, plus inventory, all with a 3k limitation on your
compiled program size, then talk to me about RPG. RPG got the job done
and was very sophisticated. RPG II and III added little function that
wasn't there already excepting maybe Call and damned pointers with Parms.
RPG IV with its new Eval looks like a concession to those that prefer the
confusion of C, but hey, that's progress I guess.
What I find most upsetting is that too many people Computer Science
graduates learn a little RPG and then decide it isn't very good nor
sophisticated. If they'd learn the language and could speak it without a
C accent they'd change their minds imho.
In <6n1mqq$7b$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, on 06/27/98
at 02:53 AM, tho...@inorbit.com said:
>>
>> RPG is an easy language;
>Fortunately, RPG is long gone into history, although you can still write
>RPG programs using current compilers. RPG was very easy. RPG II was more
>complex, and RPG III added a lot more. Nowadays, good ILE RPG (in RPG IV
>syntax) can be just about as "easy" as C.
Ad van Dongen
J. Scott McPhee wrote:
>
> On Fri, 26 Jun 1998 02:18:00, boo...@ibm.net wrote:
>
> > workign on AS/400 is relatively boring compared with other types of
> > >computer work;
> > yuppers. The darn thing is predictable, reliable, and always up. No
> > fun there, is there?
> >
> Our AS/400 just crash for the first time in four years of continuous
> running
> and that was probably due to a bug in V4R3 of the OS.
>
> Regards
> J. Scott McPhee
V4R3 ???????????
AFAIK V4R3 is due 3Q-98 we still live 2Q-98.
Ad.
Chris
V4R3 beta has been released (i've had it for 2 months). If your V4R3
system crashed, its due to untested beta code. It comes with the
territory. The discussion about reliability is not about beta code, so
your crash doesn't count.
Jim Welsh
RPG II and III added little function ?
to what ? RPG I ??? You gotta be kidding me...
RPG II and OCL compared to III and CL is like night and day
I'd rather write Cobol than I would RPG II...
If it were not for RPG III and external files, structured opcodes...IF ,
DO...etc..
RPG would be dead as a doornail...
except for those of course that enjoy working with boat anchors...
LOL
boo...@ibm.net wrote:
--
David Dunfield
.Duh, ever hear of the OS/400 beta program?
boo...@ibm.net
I didn't say that. I said "function". What grand new function does RPG
III have that wasn't in RPG? CALL/PARM, yes. But so near as I can tell,
most of the rest of the enhancements were a few new opcodes, including
IF-ELSE-END, READE & READPE, and CHECKR type stuff.
I forgot about subfiles... where did they come in?
In <359583E9...@ix.netcom.com>, on 06/27/98
at 07:44 PM, Jim Welsh <jimw...@ix.netcom.com> said:
>RPG II and III added little function ?
>to what ? RPG I ??? You gotta be kidding me...
>RPG II and OCL compared to III and CL is like night and day
Jim Welsh
boo...@ibm.net wrote:
Subfiles came with the 38...
When I took programming in college it was Cobol and RPG II, at that time I
thought Cobol was
pretty cool and that i'd probably become a Cobol programmer.
The way you had to use indicators in RPG on the System/34 I found to be
bearing on the
"ridiculous"...
Well I ended up in the right place at the right time and fortunately never
did have to do much
RPG II...because I was on the 38 with III. I got so good at III lucky me I
was once given the job
of converting an extremely poorly written RPG II, OCL Trade Allowances
application to III and CL...I enjoyed that project...but it really let me see
just how much the functionality had improved...
When you talk RPG vs III...don't forget to include OCL vs CL...
#GSORT vs OPNQRYF....ancient arhcaic history vs state of the art database
processing
Now that I think of it...it wasn't as much the improvement in the language
itself as it was the platform it ran on...Only a shop with no other choice
would run 36 mode on an AS400...or even 38 if that were possible...
There was no RPG III before there was System/38
There was no Library List and multiple libraries before there was system/38
No externally described files...logical files...
Hell before the 38 there wern't alot of things...
Anyway, what was it we were debating ? : )
GUI apps is what we all hope to see on the 400...I'd love to see the 400 run
GUI apps with NO MS WINDOWS or OS/2 attached...just a state of the art...IBM,
Network Station...
To my understanding that is what's coming...whether it's RPG/JAVA/LAVA or
even COBOL...
I don't care at this point....I don't even care if I'll be one those lucky
ones that will be creating all those cool apps on the 400....I just want to
see it happen, more than anything...
MS OFFICE, the product...is pretty darn good, MS the Company...is something
else entirely...
I've watched how MS has screwed IBM, Netscape...tried to screw Java....and
utimately when it comes down to it...has screwed me, a consumer and IBM ONLY
platform programmer...
Why IBM ONLY ? Cause they are the company that makes the AS/400
Why would I want to program on anything else when I could program on an
AS/400 ?
I could sit my 15 year old son in front of an AS/400 ( if i had one ) and in
two weeks he could
probably code CL better than 50% of the CL code i've come across...
I don't know why that is...but there are an awful lot of sloppy coders out
there...even in the AS/400 camp...
Course the 400 makes it so easy....they let just about anybody do it : ) lol
Anyway, I don't know where I got all this Blue Blood...( they never gave ME a
job with them ;> )
but I would love to see the day they really give MS a huge dose of their own
medicine...
I guess you could call me an IBM AS/400 bigot... : )
Wouldn't it be great to work in a shop that had nothing but the best ?
Nothing but IBM ?
AS/400's...THINKPAD's....NETWORK STATIONS...ALL BLACK...ALL COOL...ALL THE
TIME ?
Course we'll have to have a new os for those ThinkPad's...ThinkPad/400 there
ya go...
Later Booth
Pleasant Dreams
Ed Smith
Booth,
You stirred up quite a hornets nest with that list of "myths".
The AS/400 is the least understood machine on the market and
most people who don't work with the AS/400 pass around what they've
heard about it. You could say it's the Rodney Dangerfield of the
computer industry, only without the famous name.
Its operating system (OS/400) is unlike anything else and for some
people
that's too much to handle. Actually, it's a very interesting OS.
I don't know of any AS/400 shops that view themselves as being on a dead
end road. IBM has been introducing enhancement release every 6 six
months
and will continue to do so. That's not how dead OSes are treated.
The AS/400 is a rock solid business system for adults and
the alternatives require too much luck and magic.
Unfortunately, IBM's martketing efforts are too wimpy to get the message
across. They're making too money on NT services to see clearly.
boo...@ibm.net wrote:
>
> In <dajhe.113...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu>, on 06/26/98
> at 12:18 AM, da...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (Dajiang He) said:
>
> >RPG is an easy language;
> true. You can write decent code early in the learning curve.
>
> >as/400 is not very chellanging.
> False. It'll make you crazy/
>
> workign on AS/400 is relatively boring compared with other types of
> >computer work;
> yuppers. The darn thing is predictable, reliable, and always up. No
> fun there, is there?
>
> >people in as/400 generally have less formal education in computer science
> The older ones, true. the younger ones, false. (When I got my formal
> education there was no such thing as Computer Science. That doesn't mean
> I am less intelligent.)
>
> >and less talented;
> Just as a thought... You know who _did_ make the computers don't you?
> It wasn't Computer Science graduates.)
>
> >;as400, like mainframe, is generally declining, maybe slowly,
> >eventaually.
> Both comments are false. Neither are generally declining, certainly not
> the AS/400. Rumor has it that fourth quarter 1997 IBM was air shipping 25
> trailer loads a day of AS/400 gear. That is not a dying product.
>
> --
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> boo...@ibm.net
> Booth Martin
> -----------------------------------------------------------
--
Edward R.Smith http://www.scvnet.com/~ersmith/
ATS Project Leader http://www.ibmuser.com
SMUG Webmaster http://www.ibmuser.com/smug
Tip for bulk e-mailers: Get a real job.
Bradley V. Stone
boo...@ibm.net wrote:
>I didn't say that. I said "function". What grand new function does RPG
>III have that wasn't in RPG? CALL/PARM, yes. But so near as I can tell,
>most of the rest of the enhancements were a few new opcodes, including
>IF-ELSE-END, READE & READPE, and CHECKR type stuff.
>
>I forgot about subfiles... where did they come in?
>
>
snip....
I think they came in with RPGIII, but can't be for sure. I just work
with one guy that every time I whip up a subfile in 10 minutes goes
something like "I remember when we had to code those as arrays and it
took forever." Hehehe... I'm SO glad I didn't have to deal with much
36 stuff. But then again, in 10 years the young kids I work with will
hear from me that it took 10 minutes for a subfile....
Bradley V. Stone
http://prairie.lakes.com/~bvstone
"Closing my my mouth before I scream. No one can shake my self-esteem." - YJM
Rob Dixon
Dajiang
The reason IT staff are employed is to solve user problems and the AS/400
is a better tool for this than most (if not all) platforms. This means that
you can be more productive and undertake more challenging tasks as you
spend much less time sorting out failings of OS, DBMS, comms, etc. than
with other systems.
The AS/400 is remarkably stable. I was called to look at a small AS/400
the other day which kept stopping with the attention light on. The user
could not read the display and report the error code so just kept
restarting it. I found that the reason was that the disk was 99.8% full !
I cleared space, re-IPLed the machine and all is well. I was very
impressed by the recovery - it would have been an unnecessary challenge to
have sorted out the mess that I assumed would result.
The best programming language is the one you know best. But if you are not
a programmer, then RPG is a good place to start. I have used it to create
a neural database for the AS/400 using AI techniques. This has been
challenging but was possible as I found no limitations with language.
Getting jobs completed on the AS/400 more quickly gives job satisfaction
and helps to ensure that your salary gets paid.
Formal education can blinker your approach to IT. After all you are taught
that RDBMS's can solve all your problems which they cannot. I don't think
that AS/400 uses less talented people, but as Apple, Microsoft, Sony, etc.,
and 90+% of Fortune 500 companies use AS/400, they are presumably happy
with the results.
But your last point is correct - the AS/400 is IBM's best kept secret. I
have never understood why!
If you and your (mis)informants are not convinced by all the responses that
you have had, then tell them that they can run NT on the AS/00. If they
don't like NT, then they could try Unix on the AS/400. But why bother with
either when there is OS/400?
Rob
Dajiang He <da...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu> wrote in article
<dajhe.113...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu>...
> These are some remarks I heard from some people who are working or will
work
> as computer professionals:
>
> RPG is an easy language;
> as/400 is not very chellanging.
> workign on AS/400 is relatively boring compared with other types of
computer
> work;
> people in as/400 generally have less formal education in computer science
and
> less talented;
> ;as400, like mainframe, is generally declining, maybe slowly,
> eventaually.
>
> some people even dont know what is as/400.
>
J. Scott McPhee
On Sat, 27 Jun 1998 15:59:10, Ad van Dongen <ad.van...@wxs.nl>
wrote:
> Dear J. Scott McPhee,
> V4R3 ???????????
> AFAIK V4R3 is due 3Q-98 we still live 2Q-98.
> Ad.
Sorry, it was a typo. Its V4R2.
Regards
J. Scott McPhee
David C. Anderson
*** the below is my no talented, uneducated, no imagination, not a real
programmer opinion and should be treated as such. ****
the unix/nt questions soon will not apply to the as400 for it will able
to run both in the future(this is my opinion based on what i have seen
from ibm). in 14 years, mainframe/system 3/system38/as400/unix(risc)/pc,
i have never seen a better machine or language for doing business. yes i
have done basic, pascal, cobol, fox pro, rpg(from rpg I to ile).
Dave Shaw wrote:
>
> My statements are personal opinions, treat them as such.
>
> Dajiang He wrote in message ...
> >These are some remarks I heard from some people who are working or will
> work
> >as computer professionals:
> >
> >RPG is an easy language;
>
> If one understands the paradigm, it is pretty easy to learn enough about RPG
> to do useful work quickly. In its entirety, though, RPG is not an
> especially easy language, particularly when compared to "teaching" languages
> such as Pascal and Modula-2.
>
> >as/400 is not very chellanging.
>
> That is entirely dependent on the shop one works in, and has nothing to do
> with the computer itself. The /400 makes it easier to operate a
> non-challenging shop, perhaps that's why so many of them have AS/400's, but
> the AS/400 is as challenging - or not - as the people managing it make it.
>
> >workign on AS/400 is relatively boring compared with other types of
> computer
> >work;
>
> Again, that's an environment issue, not an AS/400-specific issue, although
> the reliability of the /400 does take out some of the "system is down
> crisis" excitement.
>
> >people in as/400 generally have less formal education in computer science
> and
> >less talented;
>
> Less formal education in computer science - true. Less formal education -
> false. Less talent - false. AS/400 programmers are mostly BUSINESS
> programmers - they don't know, and don't need to know, how to write a
> compiler, but they can make a General Ledger, Payroll, Accounts Payable or
> Receivable, Warehousing, Purchasing, and/or Material Planning system sing.
>
> >;as400, like mainframe, is generally declining, maybe slowly,
> >eventaually.
>
> The sales figures and the shortage of programmers for the /400 don't seem to
> bear that out at this time. Even the Gartner Group continues to say that
> the /400 is viable for at least another 5 years - they've been rolling that
> forecast another year every year since the /400 was introduced. Most of the
> people who make this claim are either in the Unix camp or the NT everywhere
> camp. The AS/400 is the traditional threat to Unix (some say the Unix
> market is where it is because the AS/400 killed off or marginalized the
> proprietary minis of the '80's, like DG's MV series, DEC VAX, Prime, Wang,
> and HP 3000), so naturally its proponents claim weakness in the /400. The
> NT everywhere people are just so convinced of MicroSoft's market clout that
> they believe that NT will take over the world no matter what else is out
> there - not likely in my opinion until MicroSoft makes NT implementations
> less "exciting" (I don't like the scars that I'm getting from the two that
> we're doing).
>
> >some people even dont know what is as/400.
>
> Yep. Many, many people don't recognize the name. Of those who do, many
> believe all sorts of ridiculous garbage about it, often worse than what
> you've asked about. To quote many others wiser than I, "It's the marketing,
> IBM!".
>
> >Are these myths, or facts?
>
> If you've read this far, you know from my answers that I believe that they
> are a mix of both.
>
> --
> Dave Shaw, General Nutrition, Greenville, SC (just down the road from BMW -
> Bubba Makes Wheels :)
> The opinions expressed may not be my employer's unless I'm sufficiently
> persuasive...
--
David C. Anderson
http://home.att.net/~dc.anderson
** if you think they are out to get you, you are probably right. **
*** it is not are you paranoid, but are you paranoid enough.**
tec...@my-dejanews.com
you know what? STABLE!. You do not have those problems that
PCS have 'MEMORY CRASHES'. (well maybe once every six months).
You memory crashes in Pcs because so many memory allocated
when you don't need it, but guess what? the AS/400 does this
in the background, and you don't have to worry about this.
For those who don't like this is due to their preferences for
"icon" and little graphics in a GUI environment, but guess what?
this is one of the reasons PCS crash. In my line of work
(Imaging processing) we use Cobol/400 and ILE cobol/400 in
in order to perform very sophisticated communications programs
and also execute 'ADVANCE FUNCTION PRINTING' which allow us to
process IMAGES, BARCODE AND other "herbs", and guess what we are
contantly hiring AS/400 people, so for those who don't like
the 'GREEN SCREEN' guess what? we have now VISUAL BASIC, JAVA
and C++ to communicate with the AS/400 and to present to the
user those funny "icons", "push buttons" etc...Guess what? the
AS/400 REALLY WORKS! IT REALLY DOES THE WORK.......
Sincerely,
Isan Martinez (Image Systems Solutions, Inc. - Canada)
Alis...@my-dejanews.com
Ad van Dongen <ad.van...@wxs.nl> wrote:
> Dear J. Scott McPhee,
> V4R3 ???????????
> AFAIK V4R3 is due 3Q-98 we still live 2Q-98.
> Ad.
We have V4R3 on one of our machines, it's a beta.
--
/\ |\/|
/--\LISTAIR | |OIR.
tho...@inorbit.com
But you're not allowed to use ILE RPG??? Weird.
Tom Liotta
In article <6oj6pb$16o$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,