Java vs RPG
peter
Recently i read an article about IBM who is doing a great deal about
implementing Java on the AS400.
Do I have to be afraid, being an RPG programmer that my days of programming
in RPG will soon be over, or do I have another 25 years to go ?
Any input ?
Peter
Bill Brosch
How many million lines of code are there out there in cobol & rpg?
These languages will be around for a while (as in years). On the other
hand, it doesn't hurt to learn new languages, features, and such.
peter wrote in message <71vkbh$nnj$1...@news2.xs4all.nl>...
Richard Payne
most things. However, that hardly means that RPG (or Cobol) is
going anywhere. I'd imagine they will be around for a long time,
if only because of the massive amount of code written. The hard
part in the coming years may be finding people who know the
languages, cause younger people like myself are growing up
on Java and C etc.....not Cobol and RPG.
Just my 0.02.
--
Rich Payne
(Speaking for myself, not my employer)
payner at timken dot com
Looking for Alpha-Linux info?
http://www.alphalinux.org
Thomas Hauber
of us that "IBM has bet the farm". And that there would be no further
updates made to RPG period. At the Common conference in Anaheim, low
and behold, improvements to RPG!!!!
Any reasonable person would assume that IBM is hoping that Java will
take off, but they are also smart enough to know that just maybe
programmers won't follow them. So if you look carefully IBM is hedging
its bet.
danh...@infonet.isl.net
>Hi,
>
>Recently i read an article about IBM who is doing a great deal about
>implementing Java on the AS400.
>Do I have to be afraid, being an RPG programmer that my days of programming
>in RPG will soon be over, or do I have another 25 years to go ?
15
Dan Hicks
Hey!! My advice is free -- take it for what it's worth!
http://www.millcomm.com/~danhicks
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danh...@infonet.isl.net
In <3643621e...@ctnhnews.timken.com-MINC>, "Richard Payne" <payner at timken dot com> writes:
>I think that you'll find that IBM will slowly move towards Java for
>most things. However, that hardly means that RPG (or Cobol) is
>going anywhere. I'd imagine they will be around for a long time,
>if only because of the massive amount of code written. The hard
>part in the coming years may be finding people who know the
>languages, cause younger people like myself are growing up
>on Java and C etc.....not Cobol and RPG.
>
>Just my 0.02.
>
>--
>Rich Payne
>(Speaking for myself, not my employer)
>payner at timken dot com
>
>Looking for Alpha-Linux info?
>http://www.alphalinux.org
>peter wrote in message <71vkbh$nnj$1...@news2.xs4all.nl>...
>>Hi,
>>
>>Recently i read an article about IBM who is doing a great deal about
>>implementing Java on the AS400.
>>Do I have to be afraid, being an RPG programmer that my days of programming
>>in RPG will soon be over, or do I have another 25 years to go ?
>>
>>Any input ?
>>
>>Peter
John Gojnich
> I think that you'll find that IBM will slowly move towards Java for
> most things. However, that hardly means that RPG (or Cobol) is
> going anywhere. <SNIP>
I think RPG programmers would fit right into the Java world.
Take a look at "How To Write Unmaintainable Code"
http://mindprod.com/unmain.html
--
John Gojnich
Intentia Australia
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Luther Ananda Miller
in News/400, I can see that RPG will be around for a while. On the other
hand, the RPG proponents on the AS/400 seem to be missing an important part
of the whole picture-- I say this after reading over and over again Java
comments that talk only about IBM and the AS/400. For example, a guy wrote
in and mentioned after looking through AS/400 job ads and not seeing a
single mention of Java that he was not worried at all. Good point, BUT...
Java is much much bigger than just IBM and the AS/400. There are a whole
slew of companies that working on Java together (even Microsoft)-- and
because it is cross platform, I think in the next couple of years some
traditional AS/400 folks might be caught by surprise- all of a sudden there
will be new software coming from non-AS/400 shops that runs on the AS/400 as
well. A new breed of programmers will be AS/400-enabled, sort of a surpise
attack on the AS/400 market, if you will.
I am probably a perfect example- I couldn't tell RPG from Greek from Cobol,
but I have been programming in C, C++, VB, assembly, (and now Java), on a
variety for UNIX flavours and RDBMSs for years doing client-server projects,
and for the last 2 years I have been doing AS/400 projects. Not a line of
RPG code, yet we have a complete customer service/billing/accounting system
that performs fantastic and has a great GUI .... and we are doing Java
projects now as well. I can only imagine that as the AS/400 becomes more
"open" and friendly to Unix/NT-trained programmers (QShell and Java are good
examples of recent developments) that more and more people like myself will
be programming on the AS/400. I wouldn't drop everything and join the Java
race if I was in your position, but it certainly couldn't hurt to keep the
big picture in mind over the next few years.
My .02 cents...
Luther
boo...@ibm.net
In <71vkbh$nnj$1...@news2.xs4all.nl>, on 11/06/98
at 08:57 PM, "peter" <pe...@prym.nl> said:
>Hi,
>Recently i read an article about IBM who is doing a great deal about
>implementing Java on the AS400.
>Do I have to be afraid, being an RPG programmer that my days of
>programming in RPG will soon be over, or do I have another 25 years to go
>?
>Any input ?
>Peter
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
boo...@ibm.net
Booth Martin
-----------------------------------------------------------
Mark Sharrock
good RPG programmers - just look at the contracting prices and they will
tell you that. There is so much code out there at the moment written in RPG
that we will be kept busy for a long time after the millenium.
What is interesting to note is however, that while the existance of this
large base of RPG code probably does ensure some form of employment until
retirement age - it is allways of benefit to know another language.
Universities are no-longer churing out RPG or Cobol programmers - they have
decided that C++ is the way forward and many students are too short sighted
or perhaps just don't know any better - to look at the large base of
existing applications in the market place that need maintaining. So we
should be asking ourselves how we can keep one step ahead of the crowd.
Java might be the answer - then again it might not - who can tell. Recently
the number of job opertunities in Java has decreased, but over the past two
years it has come from no-where, so a certain amount of fluctuation is bound
to occur.
Personally I have noticed that there are allmost no VB programmers that also
know RPG. This seems a great shame - especially considering the lack of
decent PC pront ends onto existing RPG code. A recent letter appeared in
AS400 News stating that a company based in the States could not find a
single VB programmer who knew about RPG and ODBC.
Whatever other language you learn - make sure it can provide a good front
end onto the existing code base and you will have it made, wether it be VB
or Java....
Mark Sharrock
Director
Piriad Systems Limited
Alex Bunardzic
>Hi,
>Recently i read an article about IBM who is doing a great deal about
>implementing Java on the AS400.
>Do I have to be afraid, being an RPG programmer that my days of programming
>in RPG will soon be over, or do I have another 25 years to go ?
>Any input ?
>Peter
You definitelly need not be afraid that your days of RPG programming
will soon be over. Nothing ever dies out. Why, just last week I saw a
posting in the local newspaper for a job for a DOS developer! DOS
developer? Now, wasn't DOS pronounced dead a while ago?
Same is with RPG. Actually, you'll be able to get a job as a S/36
programmer 25 years from now. So, the problem is not in that.
The real question is: do you want to be doing the maintenance work in
the next 25 years? If the answer is yes, then there's nothing to be
concerned about.
It's already started to happen -- there are no more new projects that
are being started in RPG. This is true even for such highly hyped
languages as C++. Industry analysts predict that C++ will probably
join the ranks of Fortran and Cobol in about 8 years.
There is, however, always a nice niche for specialized experts.
Nowadays, you can make a small fortune developing in FoxPro (anyone
remember that funny beast?) Or, for that matter, in DBase.
Alex
charl...@yahoo.com
>I am probably a perfect example- I couldn't tell RPG from Greek from Cobol,
>but I have been programming in C, C++, VB, assembly, (and now Java), on a
>variety for UNIX flavours and RDBMSs for years doing client-server projects,
>and for the last 2 years I have been doing AS/400 projects. Not a line of
>RPG code, yet we have a complete customer service/billing/accounting system
>that performs fantastic and has a great GUI .... and we are doing Java
>projects now as well.
I'm from the other side of the fence... my background is procedural
languages like RPG and COBOL yet I am making a deliberate effort to
learn Java. The local university has a great Java program taught by
Sun software engineers. It's a long row to hoe, but I'm getting
there. The courses aren't only about Java, but include object
oriented concepts including OOA, OOD, object modelling, and of course
OOP. Old dogs (35+) need to learn new tricks!
Here is a question for you or anyone else that has done Java
Development on the AS400. How is performance? Earlier this year I
heard IBM'ers bragging to the AS400 community about the outstanding
performance of the Java on the OS400 since much of the JVM is below
the TIMI, yet I have yet to see anything anywhere that quantifies
this.
None of the JVM benchmarking results have the AS400 included in their
analysis... RS6000 yes, AS400s no. Believe me, I've looked. Where is
the AS400 in all of this? My mind is beginning to imagine some scary
reasons, like the AS400 can't satisfy the minimum requirements for JVM
benchmarking. Does anyone know how the AS400 stacks up? No marketing
hype, please, just the facts.
- Charles
- - -
"Nothing makes a person more productive than the last minute."
Bradley V. Stone
>Hi,
>
>Recently i read an article about IBM who is doing a great deal about
>implementing Java on the AS400.
>Do I have to be afraid, being an RPG programmer that my days of programming
>in RPG will soon be over, or do I have another 25 years to go ?
>
>Any input ?
>
>Peter
>
>
Reading through some of the posts, I think we're all missing the big
picture. Some talk about schools only teaching C++, and others talk
about keeping Java in mind for the future, etc.
The real picture is this. It doesn't matter what language schools use
to teach. If that's your point of view, your forgetting what you are
in school to learn, and that is to solve problems with computers. The
language used to do this in simply a tool. We are in school to become
_programmers_, not coders of a certain language. During my schooling,
I was taught with C++, Pascal, Modula-II, COBOL, Ada and BASIC. Since
then I have toyed with VB, Java, etc and found little problem
adapting. Again, the language is simply a tool.
If you focus on you programming skills, no matter what language you
use to program in, you should have little problem adapting to the
"tool" that you are asked, or forced, to use.
Bradley V. Stone
http://prairie.lakes.com/~bvstone
"Closing my my mouth before I scream. No one can shake my self-esteem." - YJM
Rob Mongeon
is more programming talent which will have the overall effect of
suddenly flooding the market with *many* new programmers who can
manipulate data residing in AS400 physical files. The law of supply and
demand should dictate what happens next.
Java will also allow the programmer to use distributed component
development (CORBA) techniques which so far have been severly lacking on
the OS400 platform. The closest thing I've seen so far would be the
RPG4's concept of Service Programs which really can be compared to
Windows DLL's in versions as early as 3.11 and UNIX's shared objects.
Although I would agree that RPG4 is a major step forward for OS400
application development I don't believe that there will ever be much
development of RPG4 "components". For instance, If I want to write a
C++ program that performs complex 3D graphic rendering I could either
start writing the entire thing myself or I could buy a set of class
libraries from many competing vendors thus reducing development time and
costs. Because such components can't be purchased for the RPG
environment the programmer usually has to start from square one. With
the AS400 now acting as a Java server I could use any component that is
100% pure java without having to code the entire thing myself. For a
full fledged order entry program I go out looking for a suitable class
library (for instance... San Francisco code) liscence it and use OOP
concepts to override any methods to customize the code for my specific
needs.
If I were IBM and I wanted to keep RPG alive I would develope some
type of mechanism that would allow a programmer to create a portable
object from straight RPG code. That is, one that you could create on
the 400 and could distribute on any platform that has a JVM. This
concept is similar to Microsof's DCOM in that you can create an
component from ANY language but of course it would not be binary
compatible to any particular processor.
But why would they do this when there's Java??
Just my 0.02 and then some.
-Rob
Luther Ananda Miller wrote:
> Java is much much bigger than just IBM and the AS/400. There are a whole
> slew of companies that working on Java together (even Microsoft)-- and
> because it is cross platform, I think in the next couple of years some
> traditional AS/400 folks might be caught by surprise- all of a sudden there
> will be new software coming from non-AS/400 shops that runs on the AS/400 as
> well. A new breed of programmers will be AS/400-enabled, sort of a surpise
> attack on the AS/400 market, if you will.
>
Richard Knechtel
>
<snip>
>
> But why would they do this when there's Java??
Well, Java is still the new guy/girl on the block and such still isn't
really matured yet. RPG has been around the block quite a few times and
is still a good viable language IMO. I think IBM would be crazy not to
keep improving it, but at the same time keep Java on the front burners.
As Java evolves I think it could be a replacement for RPG. But for now
there is more RPG code being written then Java. Especially for everyone
still on non-RISC systems.
Just my thoughts on the subject (from one who is learning Java and
programs RPG for a living). :^)
Regards,
RK.
Alex Bunardzic
>Here is a question for you or anyone else that has done Java
>Development on the AS400. How is performance? Earlier this year I
>heard IBM'ers bragging to the AS400 community about the outstanding
>performance of the Java on the OS400 since much of the JVM is below
>the TIMI, yet I have yet to see anything anywhere that quantifies
>this.
>None of the JVM benchmarking results have the AS400 included in their
>analysis... RS6000 yes, AS400s no. Believe me, I've looked. Where is
>the AS400 in all of this? My mind is beginning to imagine some scary
>reasons, like the AS400 can't satisfy the minimum requirements for JVM
>benchmarking. Does anyone know how the AS400 stacks up? No marketing
>hype, please, just the facts.
Here's the facts: we are on V4R2, and unfortunatelly Java does not
perform on that level yet. We'll be moving to V4R3 soon, and I can't
wait to test Java on it again.
It would appear that the AS/400 (as we know it) is not well suited
for Java. That's why IBM announced the very specialized, stripped-down
AS/400 Java-only server. That makes sense, because today AS/400 is
doing too many things at the same time. It can serve as your database
server, as your web server, as your interactive and batch job server,
you name it. It is a Jack-of-all-trades (and a master of none).
As for some cold hard facts: I have developed a Java report which runs
on a PC (166MHz, 64Mb RAM) from the command line and completes on the
average in 12 to 14 seconds (after repeated runs that I've averaged).
I've copied the same *.class files to the AS/400, ran the CRTJVAPGM
with the maximum optimization (40) on them (this optimization inflates
their size to more than 10 times!), and then ran them on the AS/400 in
batch mode (meaning submitting a job that starts JVM to batch). The
results are dysmal -- the very same report takes from 10 to 14 minutes
(after repeated measurments) to complete!
Rather disheartening, isn't it?
To what can we attribute such lousy results? My hunch is that AS/400
architecture just doesn't supply enough juice for today's real-life
object oriented applications. There's a huge overhead associated with
implementing a correctly designed object oriented piece of code. The
latest batch of your average PCs finally seem to be on par with such
demands (my 300MHz PC makes Java just screamingly fast). The thing is,
my PC is not beating around the bush when it comes to job accounting
etc. It just runs things as God intended. That's why it gets 500 to
600 times better output, even if it does not compile Java bytecodes to
the metal.
Oh, and one more thing for you to mull over: I've just returned from a
5 day course on advanced Java development, where they taught us that
depending on what your Java code is doing, there may be times when
having the code compiled will actually cause the code to run SLOWER
than if you leave it to JVM to optimize it on the fly. So, compiling
it to binary is not necessarily an ideal solution in all cases for OO
code.
Regards,
Alex
tho...@inorbit.com
I'm not fully in agreement that IBM would be crazy not to improve RPG. True,
there are a few things that can be improved for minimal effort; and IBM should
follow through with planned/announced future improvements.
But I'm seeing it as a dying language. Not in the sense that it will
disappear soon... I'm pretty sure it will be viable for years to come. But I
do think it's just about quit evolving. And I don't see the point of much
further effort at evolution.
As it is, ILE RPG (other than the use of RPG IV syntax) is having a tough time
getting off the ground. We all already know RPG/400 has no future (in
evolution). Why should IBM put effort into ILE RPG?
To leverage existing talent? I don't think there's as much ILE RPG talent out
there as there is Java.
Hmmm... okay, let's say IBM comes up with ILE RPG II. The next generation.
Multi-threaded, object manipulation, etc. Somehow I don't foresee a
CVTIRPGSRC command that will take existing ILE RPG and morph it effectively
into anything that could take advantage of such features. You'd essentially
end up learning a new language anyway. And maybe worse, attempting to use old
techniques because that's how you did it in ILE RPG I. Besides, that'd
clearly be a few years away.
I'm not so sure I want IBM spending R&D money to make it happen. I think I'd
prefer them focusing on Java. Perhaps solving the problems of interfacing with
existing applications.
Java exists right now. I'm not willing to say "Java is the future"; but I'm
willing to bet that getting to the future from Java will be much easier than
getting there from RPG.
I think it's time to prepare for a switch and Java's as good a jumping off
point as any I've ever seen. Maybe Java won't ever go anywhere important. But
learning Java is almost certainly a good idea anyway, just because it'll make
the next step easier if nothing else. And if it does become important, we'll
be prepared to take advantage.
Tom Liotta
In article <364C5A...@ftc.gov>,
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
charl...@yahoo.com
model totally optimized for Java.
Is this truth or fiction? Rumor or strategic direction?
Darryl Johns
Pure speculation at this point. I personally think we would never
introduce a machine so narrow in scope.
Regards,
Darryl Johns
IBM AS/400 e-business Specialist
(opinions expressed are mine, not necessarily those of IBM)
Bob Cancilla
I think both sides of the argument are true. I think that JAVA will prevail on
the AS/400 and all other IBM platforms. I also think RPG will be continued to
be supported for a very very long time.
First of all, there are billions of lines of RPG code out there. This will not
go away anytime quickly if ever. Secondly, you can write an effective RPG
program much more quickly and efficiently than ANYONE can write a JAVA program.
JAVA on the plus side however will begin to materialize as the language of
choice for software houses and commercial applications, it makes economic
sense. Software houses can write it once and run it on many platforms. This
expands the reach of the vendor's marketplace.
IF (all CAPS and EXCLAIMATION points IF) IBM and other vendors can fullfill the
promise of IBM's seemingly dismal and disasterous San Francisco project and
provide a much better tool set than currently exists, then maybe the promise of
JAVA Beans and JAVA will become a reality that will prevail throughout the
industry.
Bob C.
Bob Cancilla
Luther Ananda Miller wrote:
> Interesting question- and a hot topic. BUT...
> Java is much much bigger than just IBM and the AS/400. There are a whole
> slew of companies that working on Java together (even Microsoft)-- and
> because it is cross platform, I think in the next couple of years some
> traditional AS/400 folks might be caught by surprise- all of a sudden there
> will be new software coming from non-AS/400 shops that runs on the AS/400 as
> well. A new breed of programmers will be AS/400-enabled, sort of a surpise
> attack on the AS/400 market, if you will.
>
I couldn't agree with Luther, he is right on the mark! See my post entitle
"World's first AS/400 based Search Engine". We found a product developed in
JAVA and put it on an AS/400 using IBM's new WebSphere application server which
is a fancy name for IBM supporting Sun's JAVA Servlet API.
I just found it, loaded it and it runs (after a few tweaks by IBM :-).
Bob C.
danh...@infonet.isl.net
>As for some cold hard facts: I have developed a Java report which runs
>on a PC (166MHz, 64Mb RAM) from the command line and completes on the
>average in 12 to 14 seconds (after repeated runs that I've averaged).
>I've copied the same *.class files to the AS/400, ran the CRTJVAPGM
>with the maximum optimization (40) on them (this optimization inflates
>their size to more than 10 times!), and then ran them on the AS/400 in
>batch mode (meaning submitting a job that starts JVM to batch). The
>results are dysmal -- the very same report takes from 10 to 14 minutes
>(after repeated measurments) to complete!
>
>Rather disheartening, isn't it?
>
>To what can we attribute such lousy results?
Expect moderate improvements with V4R3 and major ones with V4R4. There
will probably always be some benchmark disadvantage, but the scalability
and integration of AS/400 Java will make it have significant advantages
for many applications.
Alex Bunardzic
>First of all, there are billions of lines of RPG code out there. This will not
>go away anytime quickly if ever. Secondly, you can write an effective RPG
>program much more quickly and efficiently than ANYONE can write a JAVA program.
I don't know where did you get your facts from, but there simply isn't
a way for a top-notch expert RPG guru to write an effective RPG
program that could match the output of an average Java developer. In
other words, an average Java guy can probably write the same
functionality in about one tenth of a time it takes an RPG guru to do
it. This is not an exaggeration of the type "my dad can beat up your
dad", it's a fact. Our RPG guys had a chance to testify to the
validity of this fact, and it is only if you've never really developed
a truly object oriented Java app that you'll have serious doubts about
this one.
Besides, your RPG guru can develop only a pathetic subset of
functionality that an average Java guy can implement. So, in a way, we
are comparing apples and oranges.
Also, if you object that, yes, we're faster in Java, but only because
we are re-using the prefabricated classes (and that would be kind of
cheating), please keep in mind that in RPG you are doing the same
thing -- for example, you are using the subfile, which is a
prefabricated component brought to you by the AS/400's display file.
Or, would you like to code the subfile functionality in RPG by
yourself?
With all due respect,
Alex
boo...@ibm.net
But then I got to thinking: Java's been around a couple of years or more now, since mid-1995. If it is all that simple, where's the code? Where are the applications? Why aren't the back pages of the mid-range magazines full of Java applications to buy and plug in for payroll, Accounts Payable, Accounts Receivable, etc.?
Please don't take my remarks wrong; I really do think Java has a place and that it will be very prominant, more prominant than Smalltalk for instance, but that does not mean that the end of the RPG site is just a few New Years away.
In <bf7ce$1010...@srv4.reelwest.bc.ca>, on 11/14/98
at 11:50 PM, bun...@intouch.bc.ca (Alex Bunardzic) said:
>I don't know where did you get your facts from, but there simply isn't a
>way for a top-notch expert RPG guru to write an effective RPG program
>that could match the output of an average Java developer. In other words,
>an average Java guy can probably write the same functionality in about
>one tenth of a time it takes an RPG guru to do it. This is not an
>exaggeration of the type "my dad can beat up your dad", it's a fact.
Bradley V. Stone
>Bob Cancilla <bo...@ignite400.org> wrote:
>
>>First of all, there are billions of lines of RPG code out there. This will not
>>go away anytime quickly if ever. Secondly, you can write an effective RPG
>>program much more quickly and efficiently than ANYONE can write a JAVA program.
>
>I don't know where did you get your facts from, but there simply isn't
>a way for a top-notch expert RPG guru to write an effective RPG
>program that could match the output of an average Java developer.
Find an average Java programmer. I accept the challenge. The
project? A full Accounts receivable package. Mine's already done...
where's yours?
> In
>other words, an average Java guy can probably write the same
>functionality in about one tenth of a time it takes an RPG guru to do
>it. This is not an exaggeration of the type "my dad can beat up your
>dad", it's a fact. Our RPG guys had a chance to testify to the
>validity of this fact, and it is only if you've never really developed
>a truly object oriented Java app that you'll have serious doubts about
>this one.
And our VB, C, FoxPro etc. programmers had their chance.. well, more
than their chance. Still doin RPG for mission critical stuff. And
rewriting the other applications that failed in the "flavor of the
month" into RPG.
>
>Besides, your RPG guru can develop only a pathetic subset of
>functionality that an average Java guy can implement. So, in a way, we
>are comparing apples and oranges.
No we're not. As I have stated before on many occasions, the language
used is only a tool to solve a certain problem. The real key to
programming is effective use of abstraction in the form that it won't
matter what language you use, the application will perform as planned
and expected. So, in your statement above, really what you are
looking for a top notch RPG-coder and an average Java coder, not two
programmers of the same potential with different "tools". Now that's
apple pie to apples, to apples to oranges.
>
>Also, if you object that, yes, we're faster in Java, but only because
>we are re-using the prefabricated classes (and that would be kind of
>cheating), please keep in mind that in RPG you are doing the same
>thing -- for example, you are using the subfile, which is a
>prefabricated component brought to you by the AS/400's display file.
>Or, would you like to code the subfile functionality in RPG by
>yourself?
>
The "36ers" did this using arrays all the time. Then IBM added a nice
little feature to OS/400 making subfile programming much easier
(except in the eyes of the "stubborn" 36 programmer <BG>). You've
mentioned one nicety of OS/400 compared to the many that are provided
with Java, but I can still do a simple input/output (hell, let's even
through in a couple level breaks) in less time and less code than you
could with java.
>With all due respect,
>
>Alex
>
>
Java and RPG both have their place. One will not replace the other.
If you think so, you're simply being ignorant and ignoring another
tool available. The trick is, finding out when you should use a
hammer, and when you should use the cool new .22 guage automatic
nailer.
Cheerio.
pm
Let's get this clear then, for Java development an 'average guy' has the
development tools to create a simple database work-with type program.
He 'paints' all the components, other people can then translate the
screens to 3 european languages.
The distributions (VERY thin client) perform perfectly well over slow
comms lines?
After deployment, meaningfull messages are generated when for instance
the screen has got out of sync with the programs referring to it (some
one may have added another UI component)?
The above is true for an evolved, for-business application development
environment (OS/400 + RPG).
Best regards
Pete M. (Java enthusiast)
Alex Bunardzic wrote:
>
> Bob Cancilla <bo...@ignite400.org> wrote:
>
> >First of all, there are billions of lines of RPG code out there. This will not
> >go away anytime quickly if ever. Secondly, you can write an effective RPG
> >program much more quickly and efficiently than ANYONE can write a JAVA program.
>
> I don't know where did you get your facts from, but there simply isn't
> a way for a top-notch expert RPG guru to write an effective RPG
> program that could match the output of an average Java developer. In
> other words, an average Java guy can probably write the same
> functionality in about one tenth of a time it takes an RPG guru to do
> it. This is not an exaggeration of the type "my dad can beat up your
> dad", it's a fact. Our RPG guys had a chance to testify to the
> validity of this fact, and it is only if you've never really developed
> a truly object oriented Java app that you'll have serious doubts about
> this one.
>
> Besides, your RPG guru can develop only a pathetic subset of
> functionality that an average Java guy can implement. So, in a way, we
> are comparing apples and oranges.
>
> Also, if you object that, yes, we're faster in Java, but only because
> we are re-using the prefabricated classes (and that would be kind of
> cheating), please keep in mind that in RPG you are doing the same
> thing -- for example, you are using the subfile, which is a
> prefabricated component brought to you by the AS/400's display file.
> Or, would you like to code the subfile functionality in RPG by
> yourself?
>
Richard Knechtel
>
<snip>
> I think it's time to prepare for a switch and Java's as good a jumping off
> point as any I've ever seen. Maybe Java won't ever go anywhere important. But
> learning Java is almost certainly a good idea anyway, just because it'll make
> the next step easier if nothing else. And if it does become important, we'll
> be prepared to take advantage.
>
> Tom Liotta
The question is Whos's Java will people use? Suns original version, M$
basterdized version, Etc.. If you use Sun's your pretty much guarenteed
that it will run with future releases of Java from Sun, If you use M$'s
well, It will ONLY run on a windows box, at this point I'd stick with
RPG as it would at least run on an AS/400.
Like I said before I think Java won't be too heavily used in enterprise
wide applications until some of the bugs have been worked out of it. I
think it's a great language don't get me wrong, but It's still the new
kid on the block. And I am sure people remember the whoopla about
SmallTalk being the next be all end all. I think 'C' is a good
alternative to RPG. It's been around for along time.
RK.
Luther Ananda Miller
some of these posts- sure, M$ has bastardized it (I wouldn't use J++ unless
a client demanded it and had good reason), but that doesn't stop anyone who
wants to run cross platform from writing 100% Pure Java code. There are apps
already out there- Tengah's WebLogic for example- even IBM is embracing it
for the AS/400. My point is that I don't think "who's Java will people use"
is a real issue. People want there applets to run in every browser and their
applications to run on all platforms, so they will naturally write their
apps to workaround any implementation-specific problems, where applicable.
I agree there aren't a lot of robust business packages out there in Java-
yet. But they will come. How long will Java last? Good question. I think it
is a vendor's dream to be able to write once and run anywhere, so I
certainly hope it gets all of the support and improvements that it needs.
Luther
--
http://www.lanandam.com
Richard Knechtel wrote in message <36504C...@ftc.gov>...
Paul Allen
Luther Ananda Miller wrote:
> Java is already more stabile and cross platform than one would think from
> some of these posts- sure, M$ has bastardized it (I wouldn't use J++ unless
> a client demanded it and had good reason), but that doesn't stop anyone who
> wants to run cross platform from writing 100% Pure Java code.
Well said, Luther. You need look no further than the AS/400 Toolbox for Java
(http://www.as400.ibm.com/JAVA/tool.htm) to find certified pure Java that will
run unmodified on:
- AIX
- Linux
- your favorite flavor of *nix
- AS/400
- OS/2
- Macintosh
- and even Win32
There have been many posts pooh-poohing (is that a verb?) the "write once, run
everywhere" promise of Java saying that it can't be pulled off. If you refuse
Microsoft's non-compliant JVM, the promise is already delivered.
Agreed, the full line of business apps are not there... yet. Big surprise, the
language has been around all of 3+ years. It will take time for the regular line
of business apps to be developed and mature. But, the benefits of code reuse
across heterogeneous platforms are very compelling from a productivity
standpoint.
BTW, I am not a purist who believes Java *applications* must be deployed in
bytecodes. If compiling down to the metal makes sense for performance, so be it.
Doing so in no way subverts the "write once, run everywhere" benefits:
programming productivity and customer investment protection.
Lastly, this Java vs. RPG debate is nonsense. There will be a place for RPG for
many years to come. There will also be a place for Java for many years to come.
I don't mean this to slam RPG, but I am very happy I am coding in Java instead
of RPG. For that matter, I hope to never code C++ again. But, I am not on the
hook to deliver business applications... ;-)
Karl Hanson
>
<snip>
> I agree there aren't a lot of robust business packages out there in Java-
> yet. But they will come.
See:
Excerpt:
Somers, N. Y., November 16, 1998 -- IBM today announced that its AS/400e
series servers will be the first to run the world's only Enterprise
Resource Planning (ERP) application written entirely in Java.
Intentia, one of the industry's leading providers of enterprise resource
planning solutions, unveiled its new Movex Version 11 software today.
Movex 11 is the first ever totally Java-based ERP software package.
--
Karl Hanson
charl...@yahoo.com
>will probably always be some benchmark disadvantage, but the scalability
>and integration of AS/400 Java will make it have significant advantages
>for many applications.
>
>Dan Hicks
Well, the dysmal performance figures that Alex posted explain why we
haven't seen any benchmark results. If Java on the AS/400 really
sucks performance wise, I don't blame IBM for not posting the results.
I'd be embarrassed too.
Our company sells and supports a multi-platform application written
entirely in a 4GL. There are a few utilities that must run outside of
the 4GL. On the AS/400 these utilities are in RPG, on other platforms
they are Perl or C++. We were about to re-write some of these
utilities in Java so they can be universally applied to all platforms.
Maybe we better hold off a year or two...
danh...@infonet.isl.net
>>Expect moderate improvements with V4R3 and major ones with V4R4. There
>>will probably always be some benchmark disadvantage, but the scalability
>>and integration of AS/400 Java will make it have significant advantages
>>for many applications.
>>
>>Dan Hicks
>
>Well, the dysmal performance figures that Alex posted explain why we
>haven't seen any benchmark results. If Java on the AS/400 really
>sucks performance wise, I don't blame IBM for not posting the results.
>I'd be embarrassed too.
The "dirty little secret" is that an AS/400 CPU that will handle X units
of order entry load is only 1/4 to 1/2 as fast as the CPU that, say, NT
needs to handle the same load. This is because the AS/400 storage
architecture is incredibly efficient in handling disk I/O, in
buffering/caching the disk data, etc. Plus many "big" machines are
actually multi-processor units (something that the AS/400 does better than
most competitors).
But when you're talking Java benchmarks (and C benchmarks) you're usually
talking compute-bound, and then the AS/400 CPUs don't have the fancy
architecture and software to save them. Plus most such benchmarks run
single threaded and hence don't make use of the multiple processors. Net
result is that the AS/400 doesn't do too well when comparing what are
supposedly "equivalent" CPUs.
Where AS/400 Java does shine is in large multi-threaded application
handling a lot of data. The size of the Java "heap" is essentially
unlimited, and the AS/400 storage architecture does a good job of managing
it. Plus the AS/400's tasking model has fewer bottlenecks than many
other systems. There are some performance problems with locks and "new"
in R2 and R3, but these will virtually disappear in R4.
Peter Michel
"average software", no matter how good the tools are. I'm serious for new
technologies because it's a must. But technology is worth nothing without
skill. The skill to use it right and to use the right technology at the
right place.
Greetx
Peter Michel
(Java is fashion :-)
boo...@ibm.net escribió en mensaje
<364f756d$1$obbguz$mr2...@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>...
>I don't know Java at all, and admit to liking RPG so your comment sort of
frazzzled my nerves. Sorry.
>
>But then I got to thinking: Java's been around a couple of years or more
now, since mid-1995. If it is all that simple, where's the code? Where are
the applications? Why aren't the back pages of the mid-range magazines full
of Java applications to buy and plug in for payroll, Accounts Payable,
Accounts Receivable, etc.?
>
>Please don't take my remarks wrong; I really do think Java has a place and
that it will be very prominant, more prominant than Smalltalk for instance,
but that does not mean that the end of the RPG site is just a few New Years
away.
>
>
>In <bf7ce$1010...@srv4.reelwest.bc.ca>, on 11/14/98
> at 11:50 PM, bun...@intouch.bc.ca (Alex Bunardzic) said:
>
>
>>I don't know where did you get your facts from, but there simply isn't a
>>way for a top-notch expert RPG guru to write an effective RPG program
>>that could match the output of an average Java developer. In other words,
>>an average Java guy can probably write the same functionality in about
>>one tenth of a time it takes an RPG guru to do it. This is not an
>>exaggeration of the type "my dad can beat up your dad", it's a fact.
boo...@ibm.net
In <36cccf1c...@news.lakes.com>, on 02/19/99
at 02:43 AM, bvs...@usa.net (Bradley V. Stone) said:
>It's portable - Great... in concept. But if we have an AS/400 where all
>our applications are stored, where do we have to port our code to? And
>it's only portable (for database functions, which IS the main part of our
>business) if the databases are similar.
Bradley V. Stone
>Alex, I would say that "the output of an average developer" will allways be
>"average software", no matter how good the tools are. I'm serious for new
>technologies because it's a must. But technology is worth nothing without
>skill. The skill to use it right and to use the right technology at the
>right place.
>
>Greetx
>Peter Michel
>(Java is fashion :-)
>
>
I also agree with your philosophy. I also think that people are
looking at Java for the wrong reasons.
Let's look at one of the main points and how the apply to your average
shop with an AS/400 and an NT server.
It's portable - Great... in concept. But if we have an AS/400 where
all our applications are stored, where do we have to port our code to?
And it's only portable (for database functions, which IS the main part
of our business) if the databases are similar.
Bradley V. Stone
Luther Ananda Miller
applications? If you are a software developer, you now hav ethe opportunity
to write one version of your application which will run on several
platforms. That means you can write and design a Java app for the AS/400 and
sell it customs who insist on NT, or Unix, or whatever. And from another
angle: If you are an AS/400 customer and looking for a product, you will
have more products to choose from because the developers that decided to use
100% pure java to write for Solaris or whatever are also AS/400 compatible.
There are already many products available for the AS/400 now that never were
before, just because of Java.
Luther
--
http://www.lanandam.com
Bradley V. Stone wrote in message <36cccf1c...@news.lakes.com>...
Dimas Cabré i Chacón
on-line session or batch job? I need it for tracing and debugging
procedures.
---
dimas
Pepe
one you want to work with). One of the options, I don't remember which one
right now, lets you see the files used by QTEMP. Option 14 displays all
files open at the moment.
I hope this helps. Regards.
Dimas Cabré i Chacón wrote in message <36D06762...@ibm.net>...
Peter Michel
of DSPJOB (in turn, you can do DSPJOB on that job with option 5 of
WRKACTJOB). That just lists the files and shows you stuff like opening
options, current record and so on. If you want to look at THE CONTENTS of
the file, the only way (as far as I know) is from within the job itself.
One easy way to accomplish this, if its an INTERACTIVE job, is squeezing
somehow a command line in between the jobs process. One easy method is thru
message queues, say :
1. write a message handling prog which, if given some msg (say 'hello'),
invokes QCMD or QUSCMDLN
2. change your profile message to break on every msg and change it's
message proccessing prog to the prog specified in #1 (this is some parm of
CHGMSQ, I don't remember which, but you'll find it quick. Help on this parm
also shows requisites for msgq handling progs).
3. Invoke the app
4. At any desired point, send the 'hello' msg (for instance,
SysAttention + "5 'hello' tomsgq(myprofile)" + ENTER)
5. Voila, you stepped right into the job with a command line to enjoy.
Now you can easily inspect any qtemp object, as long it isn't locked.
6. Exit qcmd and the job will resume normally (provided you have not
spoiled the qtemp files :-D)
Obviously, if it's an INTERACTIVE job, you can allso interrupt it
(SysAttention + 3 + ENTER) and do a postmortem inspection. Somewhat heavy,
huh?
If it's a BATCH submitted job, or an INTERACTIVE job in another one's
session, there are other more subtle ways to inspect it, but that's kinda
illegal and you surely don't want me to tell :-)
good luck.
Peter
Dimas Cabré i Chacón escribió en mensaje <36D06762...@ibm.net>...
Charles R. Pence
> You can see a list of the files that a job opened from QTEMP with option 14
> of DSPJOB (in turn, you can do DSPJOB on that job with option 5 of
> WRKACTJOB). That just lists the files and shows you stuff like opening
> options, current record and so on. If you want to look at THE CONTENTS of
> the file, the only way (as far as I know) is from within the job itself.
>
> One easy way to accomplish this, if its an INTERACTIVE job, is squeezing
> somehow a command line in between the jobs process. One easy method is thru
> message queues, say :
> 1. write a message handling prog which, if given some msg (say 'hello'),
> invokes QCMD or QUSCMDLN <<SNIP>>
The message queue break handling method is available for batch jobs as well, and
for interactive jobs, often the job is in a DSPW so just an attention program
being set can allow the same -- I just set mine to QCMD <or QUSCMDLN>; no reason
to ask from a separate job to activate if the attention program is previously
set. The SysReq function via exits or otherwise, is also good for an
interactive job; for when the job is active and allowing the function, but not
DSPW.
Regards, Chuck
All comments provided "as is" with no warranties of any kind whatsoever.
Njål Fisketjøn (Njal Fisketjon)
wrote:
> Does anybody know any "easy" way to see the QTEMP files of any
>on-line session or batch job? I need it for tracing and debugging
>procedures.
>
I was inspired to put my RMTCMD & RTVDSP commands on my AS/400 homepage. Visit
for more info.
Njål Fisketjøn, FIGU DATA AS
n...@figu.no
http://www.robin.no/~nfisketj