The new HP Prime

[Mario Lohajner]

Hello all,
The new HP Prime looks very nice, *very powerfull*, very good apps, but also
*waaay* of the classic "48 line"
From 48s(x) all the way trough 50G blue, thanks to emulator and high level
of compatibility
despite of new (even when tometimes trashy) keyboard and much better biger
display there was always some "common ground".
A *lot* of people, even today, prefere non ARM (Real Saturn) models 48s(x)
and g(x), somewhat less 49g models.

With *powerfull* HP Prime, but *so* different it's obviously not intended
for "oldtimers"
we're too much hooked up with RPN, RPL, Saturn, ARM and "the good stuff"
With all this in mind Prime is a model not to keep up, but to take lead on
this *new* market.
Since Ti and Casio and Sharp and... who not... already have similar
color-touch-wonder-almost not a calculator at all-models.

No doubt about it i'm probably going to buy one... eventualy, but first
I'm runing to store to buy a couple of "good-old" 50Gs to have them handy
when they will be all gone :-)

True we all whine for a color display, touch screen and all that, but now
that we got it...
it seams like it's too much and too far away from "the original".

I belive there will be Saturn emulator (even better and faster than before)
as soon as Jean-Yves Avenard finally gets one running :-)
(it's a lot of work, if you want to take the advantage of the new hardware,
display, keyboard, touchscreen and so on...)

-just some thoughts i wanted to share here...
More thoughts on this ?

manjo
http://fly.srk.fer.hr/~manjo

[DavidM]

Yes, it's very different. But shouldn't it be? With new capabilities comes new ways of operating and new possibilities for applications that would not have been feasible previously.

HP is at least trying to continue to have a presence in the "calculator" market (I'm not sure that is a good word to use now). With the Prime, they're actually trying to push it forward a bit, which is great to see. But it's inevitable that the only segment of the market large enough to support the R&D costs of a new product in this space is the educational one. I believe that defines the focus and feature set we will see for this type of device moving forward.

I will confess that I've been a bit disappointed in certain aspects of the Prime, and it's caused me to reflect on why that might be. It made me realize that, for the most part, I stopped needing a *math* appliance when I finished my degree so many years ago. I really don't need a CAS -- most of what I do could be done with a limited set of numerical functions. But I gravitate toward these devices because of their programmability (and things like dedicated keys for doing calculations :-) ). So my view of a new device in this space is heavily weighted by my perception of how easily I will be able to development applications for it.

There's a big question mark in that area regarding the Prime, as we've yet to hear anything about developing for it other than the built-in pascal-like language. What I'm more interested in, however, is the ability to take advantage of the new app model and things like the touch screen. While something like a Saturnator would be nice (and open up the possibility for porting lots of legacy code), it would seem to me to be better to skip the emulation layer altogether and go straight to native app development. But that's just me, and I realize I'm not a member of any of the target markets for the Prime.

I hope this new endeavor for HP is successful enough to allow them to grow the product line to include devices that aren't constrained to the same feature set required by the educational community. But I also recognize that the market is so small (once you leave education) that it would be unlikely. The 12c has shown the world that there's a place for a dedicated financial tool, but would that market support a Prime-like financial tool? I can certainly imagine a rich set of tools that finance folks would love on that platform. But I don't know if they'd see the value in it. That's why marketing people get paid the big bucks.

[Teketron357]

Absolutely right.
After trying the PRIME emulator, I was hoping to see more from the RPN mode. But, not so much, it has nothing in comparison to the HP48/HP49/HP50G.

Nonetheless, remember that there is an HP48 Emulator for Android.
Android OS is no PRIME OS, but, if the tools are provided by HP or at least a full feature-rich documentation (not the user manual for PRIME), then, maybe the HP50G EMULATOR APP to run under the PRIME will be possible!!!

Or maybe HP itself could build this HP50G EMULATOR APP and sell it for a profit.


But, again, this is still unknown.
Emulation is not the best, but it is convenient.
Running the HP50G emulation under the 400 MHz processor that the PRIME has, I personally think it would be cool!

-Steve.

[Erwin Ried]

I tested the emulator too and for me it is much like the TI CAS CX system, it's a shame but with any change everyone will complain about something.

What I am not sure if hp is going full throttle with these changes because I feel like the "love for RPN and classic 48's" is what keeps alive the hp graphic calculators right now, in the other hand TI is constantly doing workshops and giving away calculators (I saw a lot of these in my university and in the Titanium times I was able to piss the speaker with the hp features :D)

[TW]

> After trying the PRIME emulator, I was hoping to see more from the RPN mode. But, not so much, it has nothing in comparison to the HP48/HP49/HP50G.

More detail please?

TW

[Mario Lohajner]

More thoughts on the subject

-Prime is also based on ARM processor similar to "ARM based" line 48GII,
49G+ up to 50G
-it would be great if MCU was configured the same way as it was on the 50G
-emulator should run in "privileged" or "kernel" mode or whatever it's
called on that paricular OS to be able to access the hardware directly
-the goal would be to have Saturnator copatible even at ARM level, it would
be totaly cool although not a "must"

Such "saturnator" may be compatible even at ARM level to a high degree
(ofcourse with new keyboard, larger color display and a couple of new
devices available)

75 MHz compared to 400+ MHz (about 5x) speed up would be *amazing* there
should be a checkbox+flag
native speed - mind blowing speed :-)
roughly 5X speedup shifts the limits and gives many new possibilities not to
mention the *wast* ammount of memory

With all this unloaded i would love to see a couple of things in the future
for hp calculators:
-lower the price of HP50G but make them still available
-instead of having multiple models, make dedicated ROM versions
-it's better economy to maintain a couple of ROM versions (software) than
making 5-6 different models (in hardware)

In short,
-reduce the entire current calculator line to just 2 hardware platforms:
-HP50G
-HP Prime (the new flagship with all the new functions and hardware)
-the main effort to make customized ROMs for these two
-maybe even linux for Prime (android would totaly kick ass)

Everything is right,
the time is right the specs. of hardware is right,
just re-route the efforts and energy (and money) to software, and ofcourse
marketing :-)

manjo
http://fly.srk.fer.hr/~manjo

[DavidM]

On Thursday, July 25, 2013 8:01:00 AM UTC-4, Mario Lohajner wrote:

Re: Saturnator/emulation

Manjo, what would be your goal with having an emulation layer? Is it to port preexisting apps to the newer platform, or to make the Prime more like a 48/49 in operation? Or is it something else? Just curious.

When I was first experimenting with Saturn code on the 49g+/50g, it struck me that there could be a nice benefit to developing a modernized version of a specialized emulated processor in software which would then be used to develop a new device platform. It could be designed to have special features for number crunching (ala the Saturn), but still taking advantage of a more modern architecture (wider bus, multi-core, etc.). Keeping it as an emulated layer would make it easier to maintain a product line as CPUs come and go. I'm not saying it would be easy, but it seems to me that it would be easier to update the "Saturnator" part of the system than to port the whole codebase every time a vendor decides to stop making a given CPU. I'm sure I'm over-simplifying this, but hopefully you get the point.

[Mario Lohajner]

>Manjo, what would be your goal with having an emulation layer? Is it to
>port preexisting apps to the newer platform, or to make the Prime more like
>a 48/49 in operation? Or is it >something else? Just curious.

>When I was first experimenting with Saturn code on the 49g+/50g, it struck
>me that there could be a nice benefit to developing a modernized version of
>a specialized emulated
>processor in software which would then be used to develop a new device
>platform. It could be designed to have special features for number
>crunching (ala the Saturn), but still taking
>advantage of a more modern architecture (wider bus, multi-core, etc.).
>Keeping it as an emulated layer would make it easier to maintain a product
>line as CPUs come and go. I'm not
>saying it would be easy, but it seems to me that it would be easier to
>update the "Saturnator" part of the system than to port the whole codebase
>every time a vendor decides to stop
>making a given CPU. I'm sure I'm over-simplifying this, but hopefully you
>get the point.

What "Saturn(+)" does is:
-using ROM functions and stack/pointer based language/operation gives the
code very high density
-20bits per mid-high level command compared to thumb mode 16bits per low
level ARM instruction.
-on the other hand with 64MB of memory onboard the code density is not an
issue anymore :-(

The "Saturnator" on 50G does a very good job.
Although there is room for improovement, as well as there are a things which
would make it even more accurate
(some insructions don't behave 1:1 as with real saturn -this should be
fixed)
"Saturn" is the essence, the beauty of HP calculators all the way, HP
calculator is not the same without it.

Saturn emulation would give the *ability to run most if not all the existing
code*, by doing this it would *look/feel more like 48/49/50*
for all of us who need this :-)

ARM on the other hand:
is a mature architecture and here to stay.
It will not vanish in a forseeable future, from that point we don't need
virtual machine or CPU emulation to make
a compatibility layer for the future.
ARM is "the same" from first cellphone up to now, it's just bigger, better,
more configurable, faster, muti-core and so on...
It is in fact time for Saturn to make room for ARM as native hardware
platfrom.

I'm sure JYA is refining his "Saturnator" for Prime as i write my crap here,
in fact Prime could run JYA's TI emulator and
would be even faster than a real TI, but that's another story and it would
not be "fair play" to fellow TI developers and users :-)

manjo
http://fly.srk.fer.hr/~manjo

[bruc...@gmail.com]

One significant difference: you cannot do RPN symbolic expressions on the Prime. For example, on the HP48+ series, you can:
'X' SIN 4 / but you cannot get a symbolic formula result on the Prime doing this. Nothing is symbolic with RPN.

Also frustrating for me: no variables in matrices, only numerics.

[TW]

> 'X' SIN 4 / but you cannot get a symbolic formula result on the Prime doing this. Nothing is symbolic with RPN.

Yes, this works fine. Your early emulator had 1 bug around the evaluation of quoted items that caused it not to behave as you'd liked. Works just as the 50g now.

> Also frustrating for me: no variables in matrices, only numerics.

Indeed. However, in only home this is true. In CAS, no. There, everything can be symbolic.


To resolve that in home, we'll need to get the equivalent of a 'symbolic' matrix type which does not exist at this moment.

TW

[Thomas Walter]

TW said

>
> > 'X' SIN 4 / but you cannot get a symbolic formula result on the Prime doing this. Nothing is symbolic with RPN.
>
> Yes, this works fine. Your early emulator had 1 bug around the evaluation of quoted items that caused it not to behave as you'd liked. Works just as the 50g now.

Where can you get a more recent version of the emulator? I only found
the old one which still has this bug.

Thanks,
Thomas

[TW]

> Where can you get a more recent version of the emulator? I only found
> the old one which still has this bug.

On the CD when you buy it, or on an official HP website when/if it is placed there for download.

TW

[Erwin Ried]

OK, I was testing a bit more the emulator and it feels really enjoyable. The geometry editor is stunning, and the device largely feels like a solid product. Almost all is in there, debugger, long help text, split screen, etc.

The only downside I can see now, besides the absence of the charming (and ancient) RPN/Stack methods, is the Spanish language.

It is so inconsistent and abbreviated! Envision if your device had menus like "Sav." "Rest." "D. Scree.: D. Plo.", nice eh? :( At the end you will have to use English :/

If there is a math bug, I can live with it because I know for sure it will be eventually fixed. However poor translations go beyond new generations forever (http://goo.gl/HWxcMJ <- these MS Office errors are present since ancient versions of Office, and in 2013 version they are massive due the new functions, but just nobody cares and all Spanish speaking people learn to live with wrongly named functions).

The translator should test endlessly how it looks and feels in English vs. Spanish until the translation is not only word-based but it really makes sense! Moreover, challenge them to use the calculator with math tasks! (To see if they can stand the translated version!, the idea is to provide a real localized product right? Not just to add one entry to the “supported languages” on the calculator box)

[bruc...@gmail.com]

Great! This is good to hear. One more question since you seem to be "in the know": in RPN how do you do a swap and how do you do an "undo" of the last operation?

[TW]

> Great! This is good to hear. One more question since you seem to be "in the know": in RPN how do you do a swap and how do you do an "undo" of the last operation?

Should be "in the know" since I wrote the RPN code. :-)

SWAP is mapped to the [ , ] button. When you don't have a command line open, that performs a swap. That is what the symbol there means.

There is no "undo" on prime at the moment. However, the is a lastarg functionality throught "Ans" variable, but I suspect it still had issues in the leaked version circulating around.

TW

[Mario Lohajner]

>Should be "in the know" since I wrote the RPN code. :-)
>SWAP is mapped to the [ , ] button. When you don't have a command line
>open, that performs a swap. That is what the symbol there means.
>There is no "undo" on prime at the moment. However, the is a lastarg
>functionality throught "Ans" variable, but I suspect it still had issues in
>the leaked version circulating around.

Wouldn't it be nice if SWAP was mapped to "cursor right" like it was on
whole "48 line"
-in fact it would be very nice (for me at least) if all directional keys
were mapped as they were before Prime

i figure... you may get in to trouble... here's why:
-it seams like you decided to "break away" from "old paradigm" in calulator
development,
changing the language to "pascal like" on the other hand commands like B->R
still exist (some do some dont) and
that's what I belive is wrong.

The solution i thik is to:
-break away from "the past" with native Prime apps, stack and all, make it
all new and "pascal like" B:=3; BEGIN END and all that crap :)
-if you asked me i would put in a powerull LOGO interpreter much like
MSWLOGO to be able to target even younger market
-in fact i would consider offering a couple of "shells" which would run
automatically when you power-on

I think nice would be:
1. Prime (that's the place where all the new crap would be)
2. Saturnator (that's for old folks hooked up to 48'ts "as they used to be")
3. Web browser (for browsing documentation and help all available within the
product itself, maybe even web)
4. Logo (that's the thingy for pupils and younger generation learning *the
machine way*)
5. Python (that's for power users/developers)
6. PHP (same as above)
NOTE:
The environments listed above can be used as *shell application* as well sa
programming environment

-environments could run at the same time either concurently or one at the
time

Finaly:
-it would make HP Prime not only a Caluclator, Math learning tool, but a
*powerfull* developer tool as well,
-facebook would be the first to buy a couple of thousands of these, then
google next :-)

manjo
http://fly.srk.fer.hr/~manjo

[TW]

> Wouldn't it be nice if SWAP was mapped to "cursor right" like it was on
> whole "48 line"

Then you couldn't use it to scroll results that don't fit on the screen.

And since this isn't part of the 48 line, nor is indended to replace it...

TW

[pleased...@isp.com]

Hi, manjo
Good to see you with fresh ideas after all these years.
How about we ask HP for an SDK instead, and do the Saturnator ourselves? We can do it the way we like it.
HP will not put man-hours of work to turn the Prime into the 50G, cannibalizing their own sales of the 50G.
All we need to ask for is an SDK, or at least some leaked info on how to run our own native applications on the new OS, and we can add functionality to the Prime to suit our tastes.
In the past, one post in this forum (from Cyrille) with an ARM program example caused a chain reaction that completely opened the 50G to native ARM programs.
We've done it before, we can do it again.
All we need is a starting point...

Claudio

[pleased...@isp.com]

On Tuesday, July 30, 2013 1:39:47 AM UTC-4, TW wrote:

> Should be "in the know" since I wrote the RPN code. :-)
>

Great, since you have access to the source code... all we need is a way of running arbitrary ARM code... can you sneak an easter egg in there?
You can even block it in "exam mode" if that's a requirement.

Cheers,
Claudio

[Thomas Walter]

TW said

> Should be "in the know" since I wrote the RPN code. :-)

I'm really thrilled about the Prime and more than happy to see that RPN
reappears finally on a technical up to date platform.

Tim: Are you allowed to share how the Prime was developed? Which team
is behind it, which part of HP is involved?

Thanks,
Thomas

[TW]

> I'm really thrilled about the Prime and more than happy to see that RPN
> reappears finally on a technical up to date platform.

Has been a long time, but yeah - as somone who really started with the 48, then a 49g in junior high school - it is nice to be a part of that.

> Tim: Are you allowed to share how the Prime was developed? Which team
> is behind it, which part of HP is involved?

I'll be talking about this at HHC among other things (http://hhuc.us/2013/). Maybe I should try to actually write a paper as opposed to just a presentation with talking notes.

TW

[Mario Lohajner]

Hello Claudio,
-2 words for what you wrote: *ALL TRUE* :-)

-i didn't give up on calculators, just... it all became very slow and got
bored waiting for ... something ...
-kinpo OS was designed to run the Saturnator although even more capable than
that... but the available memory is limiting factor there
-with even more processing power and memory now available + nice touchscreen
display as a bonus it gives me so manny ideas...
-this time it will depend heavily on OS and how much support (tools, SDK and
so on...) we'll be able to get for it

I would *realy, REALY* love to see a Prime to run Python and/or PHP that
would be killer for all other calculator type machines out there
Prime would absolutely lead the way on that market segment.

Switching it to android may be the way to go, with a bit more memory we
could do something similar to 50G :-)
from what i gathered 32MB of RAM is the bottomline for linux.

Let's first see what will Prime feel like when it's "done" with more info we
will see what can be done to make it work our way :-)

nice to see you again Claudio,
manjo

[pleased...@isp.com]

On Tuesday, July 30, 2013 7:18:44 PM UTC-4, Mario Lohajner wrote:

> -kinpo OS was designed to run the Saturnator although even more capable than
>
> that... but the available memory is limiting factor there
>
> -with even more processing power and memory now available + nice touchscreen
>
> display as a bonus it gives me so manny ideas...
>
> -this time it will depend heavily on OS and how much support (tools, SDK and
>
> so on...) we'll be able to get for it

Agree. Memory was the worst limiting factor, and that restriction seems to be gone on the Prime.

>
> I would *realy, REALY* love to see a Prime to run Python and/or PHP that
>
> would be killer for all other calculator type machines out there
>
> Prime would absolutely lead the way on that market segment.
>

For performance, perhaps something more in the line of LuaJIT would be adequate (easy language, near-C performance, small footprint). It would need a lot of supporting libraries, though, which are already available in python, not sure to what extent we should reinvent the wheel.

> Switching it to android may be the way to go, with a bit more memory we
>
> could do something similar to 50G :-)
>
> from what i gathered 32MB of RAM is the bottomline for linux.

For what we know, the Prime might already be running a stripped down Linux kernel, or perhaps something lighter like eCos, FreeRTOS or one of the L4 kernels. The Zipit Z2 was running Linux on an XScale at 400 MHz, so it wouldn't surprise me if the Prime has Linux.
But Android is too heavy (CPU intensive), I don't think it would work on a 400 MHz ARM9.
We could create a math workbench for Android (for phones and tablets) if you want, but I doubt the Prime would be able to run it at all.

> Let's first see what will Prime feel like when it's "done" with more info we
>
> will see what can be done to make it work our way :-)

We'll have to wait and see.
Keep in touch.
Claudio

[bruc...@gmail.com]

On Monday, July 29, 2013 10:39:47 PM UTC-7, TW wrote:
> > Great! This is good to hear. One more question since you seem to be "in the know": in RPN how do you do a swap and how do you do an "undo" of the last operation?
>
>
>
> Should be "in the know" since I wrote the RPN code. :-)
>
>
>
> SWAP is mapped to the [ , ] button. When you don't have a command line open, that performs a swap. That is what the symbol there means.
>
>

Duh, works fine, thanks.

>
> There is no "undo" on prime at the moment. However, the is a lastarg functionality throught "Ans" variable, but I suspect it still had issues in the leaked version circulating around.
>
>
>

Just tried it, and works fine too. If I 1 ENTER 2 + and then do Ans, it returns 1 and 2 to the stack. Nice!

BTW, I have no problem with the pseudo-Pascal programming. In my opinion it's still one of the more clear languages.

> TW

[bruc...@gmail.com]

On Monday, July 29, 2013 10:39:47 PM UTC-7, TW wrote:

In CAS mode, try EIGENVAL( [4 x][r p]] ) where the 4 x r p is a 2D matrix. It hangs the emulator on my PC. But the determinant works....

[Dan]

Good to hear that the Prime is not intended to replace the 48 line...I enjoy programming in SysRPL on the 50g, it allows you to customise the machine to your needs. Hope this line continues for years to come.

[g1c...@gmail.com]

For me, the best would be java/javascript, opening up tbe calculator to apps that I now have to use on a phone instead. And a pdf reader for documentation, which again has to be on the phone (unless you have a volunteer to retype it all in Prime format).

Or if you can't be that modern, a proper version of BASIC...
Complete with GOTO labels so I can type in those all those old listings.

[g1c...@gmail.com]

A few people on the newsgroup have suggested changes to the hp prime.
I thought I'd add my thoughts...I'm curious to know if they'd be feasible, but will have to wait and see.

HARDWARE

My first reaction on hearing about the Prime was that it was great to have a colour screen and a BASIC-like language. But really didnt like the loss of AA batteries. Proprietary rechargeables impact the long-term availability adversely. I just bought an old TI 83 and you can still get the batteries and it still works. That will not be happening with the Prime.
And that colour screen? Its smaller than an old BBC microcomputer! Not even VGA, which every phone can handle.

The main reason for the change in battery was to improve CPU and screen.

Could a solution be to drop the colour screen?
Would an AA battery be ok with the processor and no screen?
With a cable or bluetooth to a phone, which everyone already has, you might be able to regain the AA battery , and also improve the display...
From a lower resolution than a 1980s BBC microcomputer, to a phones HD display.
Would this be at all possible?

[g1c...@gmail.com]

Did my hardware suggestion get through i did i lose that post?

[g1c...@gmail.com]

Perhaps you could explain a little about the spreadsheet.
Does it support strings as well as numerics, or is it limited to numeric only like the matrices?
And is there really any point in having a 10 000 line spreadsheet when every one of those lines has to be typed in by hand?
I have seen no indication of any way to import a standard Microsoft spreadsheet - not even the ascii data, never mind the algorithms.
My phone can display a spreadsheet and a pdf, even if it can't calculate.
But the Prime seems to be locked into a proprietory format.

[g1c...@gmail.com]

Can you confirm that spreadsheets can handle strings or are they numeric only too?
Its a pity there is no way to import a microsoft spreadsheet...
All those 10000 lines have to be manually re-typed if I am not mistaken.