Whither the large ENTER key?

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Wm. Luke Fullmer

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Apr 13, 2006, 3:22:15 AM4/13/06
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What happened to the large ENTER key?

I've been using a 48GX for the last 13 years or so, and would like to
upgrade.

I like the speed & CAS of the 49G+, and it seems like they've FINALLY worked
out the keyboard issues, but I'm not convinced I'd like transitioning from
the large ENTER key to the small, vestigial key which graces the 49G+
keyboard (large ENTER seems indelibly linked w/ RPN, for me at least).

What do users on this board have to say about this? Do you prefer the
current configuration? Is there any hope the large ENTER key will make a
return in a future HP calc (should I wait EVEN LONGER to upgrade?!??)
-----------
Wm. Luke Fullmer
DoD #2048
MOLON LABE!

Find my PGP public key at ldap://keyserver.pgp.com


Arnaud Amiel

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Apr 13, 2006, 4:15:22 AM4/13/06
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Although I feel the large ENTER key is very useful, it took me a couple
of weeks on the 49g+ to get used to it. Now I have problems when I go
back to a 48.

The openrpn.org guys are planning a mod kit to return the large enter
key to the 49 but for me it is now more an esthetic problem than one of
usability.

Arnaud

Chips

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Apr 13, 2006, 9:45:50 AM4/13/06
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It whithered away until it got smaller.

GC


"Wm. Luke Fullmer" <luk...@SPAMrocketmail.com> wrote in message
news:J_m%f.1010$hi2...@news.itd.umich.edu...

Wayne Brown

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Apr 13, 2006, 10:27:31 AM4/13/06
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Wm. Luke Fullmer <luk...@spamrocketmail.com> wrote:
> What happened to the large ENTER key?
>
> I've been using a 48GX for the last 13 years or so, and would like to
> upgrade.
>
> I like the speed & CAS of the 49G+, and it seems like they've FINALLY worked
> out the keyboard issues, but I'm not convinced I'd like transitioning from
> the large ENTER key to the small, vestigial key which graces the 49G+
> keyboard (large ENTER seems indelibly linked w/ RPN, for me at least).
>
> What do users on this board have to say about this? Do you prefer the
> current configuration? Is there any hope the large ENTER key will make a
> return in a future HP calc (should I wait EVEN LONGER to upgrade?!??)

The lack of the large ENTER is just one of the more obvious signs of
HP's wish to de-emphasize RPN and try to look just like everybody else
(especially TI). They don't have the guts anymore to compete on the
basis of superior hardware and software, so they sell out and try to
emulate their competition. I have no hope that HP ever again will make
any product worth buying.

--
Wayne Brown (HPCC #1104) | "When your tail's in a crack, you improvise
fwb...@bellsouth.net | if you're good enough. Otherwise you give
| your pelt to the trapper."
e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 -- Euler | -- John Myers Myers, "Silverlock"

Joe Horn

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Apr 13, 2006, 12:42:53 PM4/13/06
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> What happened to the large ENTER key?

It fell under Carly's moronic mantra, "Invention through imitation".
:-(

> Is there any hope the large ENTER key

> will make a return in a future HP calc?

Yes. There is ALWAYS hope. And, since HP is making very visible efforts
to return to the old "HP Way", there's more than just hope. Just look
at the rediscovered HP pride in their old calculators:

http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/abouthp/histnfacts/museum/personalsystems/index.html

Joe-
Disclaimer: I don't work for HP. They work for me.

John H Meyers

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Apr 13, 2006, 12:53:33 PM4/13/06
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On Thu, 13 Apr 2006 02:22:15 -0500:

> What happened to the large ENTER key?

With the HP49 introduction around 1999,
along came "HP-Basic" [ALG mode] internally,
trying to market against "TI-Basic,"
and externally, a keyboard layout somewhat like these:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B00001N2QU
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B00000JF55

[r->] [OFF]

mk

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Apr 13, 2006, 1:40:53 PM4/13/06
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Wm. Luke Fullmer > large ENTER seems indelibly linked w/ RPN, for me at
least.

Although you can't physically add a large Enter key, you reassign the
EEX key to perform the Enter function, which will at least give you the
proximity of the traditional location of the Enter keys of old.

Using Keyman
(http://page.mi.fu-berlin.de/~raut/WR49/index.htm#General), the EEX key
can function as Enter, as long as you are in USR mode (which isn't a
bad thing at all). Here are instructions as described by the author
(from a comp.sys.hp48 thread dated May 30, 2002):

"Just recall the standard assignment of ENTER with K&SA and assign it
with A?D to EXX. In the same way, recall the StandAsnment of EEX and
assign it to ENTER, just a few key presses. And leaving the USR-mode,
the keys work as before :-)"

hth,
Matt

Paul Schlyter

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Apr 14, 2006, 3:43:11 AM4/14/06
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In article <ndt%f.802$4O2...@bignews7.bellsouth.net>,
Wayne Brown <fwb...@bellsouth.net> wrote:

> They don't have the guts anymore to compete on the basis of superior
> hardware and software, so they sell out and try to emulate their
> competition. I have no hope that HP ever again will make any product
> worth buying.

Including their printers? They aren't worse than other printers, are
they?

--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Schlyter, Grev Turegatan 40, SE-114 38 Stockholm, SWEDEN
e-mail: pausch at stockholm dot bostream dot se
WWW: http://stjarnhimlen.se/

John H Meyers

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Apr 14, 2006, 7:09:13 AM4/14/06
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It's not only the "Enter" key which moved because of
trends set by other manufacturers; for example,
here is the keyboard of the first HP handheld calculator:

http://www.hpmuseum.org/two35s.jpg

Notice how the basic function keys: - + * /
are all on the *left*

The most frequently used keys: + *
are also closest to the *center*

Why, do you think?

Actually, the earlier desktop HP-9100 had the same sequence
which later became most common: + - * / [from bottom, going up]
but still to the left of the digits:
http://www.hpmuseum.org/9100/9100bqs.jpg

As time passed, mass-marketed handhelds at first varied widely,
but eventually seemed to converge on the now common arrangement,
although with function keys on the right, just as in HP48/49/TI.

Prior ruminations of yours truly:
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.hp48/msg/2ca583243a79947d?dmode=source

You can try using the original HP handheld keyboard design:
(though unfortunately not via a more realistic touch screen :)
http://www.hpmuseum.org/simulate/sim45.htm [Java applet]

The HP35 manual: http://www.hpmuseum.org/35bk.jpg
(well, it also came with a booklet, but who needed it?)

See "Getting a Grip" on http://www.hpmuseum.org/techclas.htm
for a story on making things that both work and last.

See "The Case: rebuilding the benchmark"
on http://www.hpmuseum.org/hp9100.htm
for a story on how to re-engineer the boss :)

[r->] [OFF]

manjo

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Apr 14, 2006, 9:38:30 AM4/14/06
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Hello here's how i think it is :

I was a big fan and supporter of the ENTER key (tm) like it was, BUT
I admit i got used to the new keyboard. It is very nice (once you get used
to it of course)
I gotused to it so much that when working with old SX i keep hitting "+" :-)

The great deal of users got used to new tiny ENTER with 49G and newer 49G+
48GII

If the ENTER key was re-built in early days i would realy apreciate it. But
now when there are about same number of people
respecting the traditional ENTER like the people (including me) who accepted
the new keyboard, design and platform...

Alternatives, of course it is good to have alternative
If i was HP i would either :
1. take a sub-contractor to make alternative units based on the same
platform)
2. make it skin-able (not impossible), just imagine, getting your core part
and then
choose among 4-5 skins, among them one traditional (big enter and so on) one
the new G+ look one old 49G and so on...

Remember, different people see things differently.
Once you get the product to the market you hope you did the best to make it
appealing to most people.

I agree HP's calculators lost some of their trade-marks :
-big enter
-durable plastic
-dark color etc...

on the other hand gained :
-affordability
-upgradability
-more standard calculator design
-lower production cost
-new generation platform (can keep up for next decade)

just some thoughts, regards
manjo


Wayne Brown

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Apr 17, 2006, 4:57:58 PM4/17/06
to
manjo <not-avail...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
> Hello here's how i think it is :
>
> I was a big fan and supporter of the ENTER key (tm) like it was, BUT
> I admit i got used to the new keyboard. It is very nice (once you get used
> to it of course)

Well, here's how I think it is: It was *wrong* for them to change the
ENTER key, so I refuse *ever* to even *try* to get used to it.

Wayne Brown

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Apr 17, 2006, 4:57:56 PM4/17/06
to
Paul Schlyter <pau...@saaf.se> wrote:
> In article <ndt%f.802$4O2...@bignews7.bellsouth.net>,
> Wayne Brown <fwb...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>> They don't have the guts anymore to compete on the basis of superior
>> hardware and software, so they sell out and try to emulate their
>> competition. I have no hope that HP ever again will make any product
>> worth buying.
>
> Including their printers? They aren't worse than other printers, are
> they?

Probably no better or worse; I don't really know, as it's been years since
I last bought an HP printer. But the point is that they're no *different*
than anybody else; all their products are "me-too" offerings. The whole
company took a dive into the trash bin years ago when they abandoned their
distinctive product lines. They spun off the test & measurements division
into Agilent; they stopped making quality calculators and started making
crap like the 49 series; they quit making the HP3000 series mincomputer
(and its associated operating system, MPE) which were the best hardware
and software products HP ever made. Plus, they kicked Walter Hewlett
off the Board, when no one else in HP management was fit to lick the
shoes of anyone named Hewlett or Packard. So unless and until they
publicly acknowledge *and* fix *all* these mistakes I will not buy any
HP products for myself, and will keep recommending against them to my
family, friends and employer.

Joel Kolstad

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Apr 17, 2006, 8:58:35 PM4/17/06
to
Wayne,

"Wayne Brown" <fwb...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:ndt%f.802$4O2...@bignews7.bellsouth.net...


>They don't have the guts anymore to compete on the
> basis of superior hardware and software, so they sell out and try to
> emulate their competition.

From a business point of view, there is no "competing" with RPN & large enter
keys: Only a relatively small fraction of potential calculators buyers will
begin to *recognize* that such a feature is in any way preferable to otherwise
similar calculators from TI, etc. There was a time when HP was happy selling
to this relatively small market, but those days appear to be long gone. These
days I believe the S.O.P. is that, hey, if algebraic calculators outsell RPN
calculators 100:1, then 10x as much effort will be put into algebraic
development. This can't really be faulted from a "business school"
perspective; it's what happens to all big companies that are run by "generic"
boards that don't have any particular corporate vision other than to make
money.

> I have no hope that HP ever again will make
> any product worth buying.

As far as HP is concerned, it's "the market" that determines what's worth
buying. By that definition, they're certainly doing OK. I do symphathize
with the feeling that they may never again make anything that you personally
will buy!


duenod...@gmail.com

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Apr 17, 2006, 9:43:05 PM4/17/06
to
Nothing / no-one is perefect !

Just open your mind and try it !

I feel fine with the new small enter key (after many years of HP48s)
but feel much better with the speed, bigger display, SD, C programing,
etc.

Past never come back ! but tomorrow will have a new nice surprise !

Daniel

Wm. Luke Fullmer

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Apr 17, 2006, 10:55:52 PM4/17/06
to
Been away from the board for a few days, thanks for all the responses. I'll
prolly stick w/ my trusty 48GX & retain the keyboard layout I like, 1-yr.
battery life, durability, etc. I remain hopeful that OpenRPN or a
resurrected Quonos will eventually bring a durable, RPN-friendly design w/
modern capabilities to market, so I'll wait until they (or another company)
decides to service our "niche" market before upgrading to my next calc. (And
yes, I know that a quality design w/ features appealing to a limited number
of people would be more expensive, but I'm willing to pay extra for
something like that. My HP48GX cost $270 or so from Service Merchandise in
1993 - I considered that reasonable at the time (even in spendy 1993
dollars) and quite a bargain today considering the years of service it's
provided.)


Paul Schlyter

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Apr 18, 2006, 3:13:21 AM4/18/06
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In article <ojT0g.31159$Jk3....@bignews5.bellsouth.net>,
Wayne Brown <fwb...@bellsouth.net> wrote:

> Paul Schlyter <pau...@saaf.se> wrote:
>> In article <ndt%f.802$4O2...@bignews7.bellsouth.net>,
>> Wayne Brown <fwb...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>
>>> They don't have the guts anymore to compete on the basis of superior
>>> hardware and software, so they sell out and try to emulate their
>>> competition. I have no hope that HP ever again will make any product
>>> worth buying.
>>
>> Including their printers? They aren't worse than other printers, are
>> they?
>
> Probably no better or worse; I don't really know, as it's been years since
> I last bought an HP printer. But the point is that they're no *different*
> than anybody else; all their products are "me-too" offerings.

OK -- thus you're claiming the following:

- you have no hope that HP ever again will make any product worth buying

- HP's products are nowadays no different than other products

The conclusion from this is that you think no company will ever again make
any product worth buying. Therefore you no longer buy anything -- right?


> The whole company took a dive into the trash bin years ago when they abandoned
> their distinctive product lines. They spun off the test & measurements division
> into Agilent; they stopped making quality calculators and started making crap
> like the 49 series; they quit making the HP3000 series mincomputer (and its
> associated operating system, MPE) which were the best hardware and software
> products HP ever made. Plus, they kicked Walter Hewlett off the Board, when no
> one else in HP management was fit to lick the shoes of anyone named Hewlett or
> Packard.

Well I can agree with that -- HP is no longer an exclusive company which makes
products which are better, and more expensive, than the competition.

Right now I'm thinking back to 1980, when I owned several HP calculators (the
45, 25, 67, and 41C). I wanted a personal computer, and checked the alternatives.
Yes, there was the HP-85 -- but I ended up buying an Apple II instead: it was
cheaper, and I thought it was better. Today I think I made the right decision:
compared to the HP-85, the Apple II offered e.g. more memory, and the ability
to program in other languages than BASIC.

I think what happened to HP will happen to any company which decides to enter
a mass market. If you're a professional, and you buy products for money which
aren't your own but are company or institute money, you're probably willing to
pay more than if you're buying the product for your private money (assuming
you're not filthy rich). Therefore, any company which enters a mass market
will be forced to offer low enough prices -- or people won't buy their products.


> So unless and until they publicly acknowledge *and* fix *all* these mistakes
> I will not buy any HP products for myself, and will keep recommending against
> them to my family, friends and employer.

OK, you won't buy HP products because you're disappointed in how HP has changed.
But why do you recommend others to not buy HP products? You've acknowledged
yourself that HP's products are just like any other's product (i.e. they're no
worse), so if others shouldn't buy HP products for lack of quality, they shouldn't
buy any other products either - right?


Most likely I won't buy any new HP calculator, because of the reasons you mention
above. But I bought a HP laser printer some years ago, and it works fine. I
won't refuse to buy any new HP products just because I'm disappointed in their
calculators -- I'll buy it if I need it and if I think it's a good choice.


If you're consistently going to refuse to buy anything from any company which
has made some bad decision in the past, then there's not much you can buy....

Wayne Brown

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Apr 18, 2006, 2:39:22 PM4/18/06
to
duenod...@gmail.com wrote:
> Nothing / no-one is perefect !
>
> Just open your mind and try it !
>
> I feel fine with the new small enter key (after many years of HP48s)
> but feel much better with the speed, bigger display, SD, C programing,
> etc.

Sorry, but I consider HP's attitude and products over the past several
years to be personally offensive and insulting, and I will *not* do
anything to adapt to them, *EVER*.

>
> Past never come back ! but tomorrow will have a new nice surprise !

There is no surprise they could offer tomorrow that would make up for
the lack of the large ENTER key.

Wayne Brown

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Apr 18, 2006, 2:39:19 PM4/18/06
to
Paul Schlyter <pau...@saaf.se> wrote:
>
> OK -- thus you're claiming the following:
>
> - you have no hope that HP ever again will make any product worth buying
>
> - HP's products are nowadays no different than other products
>
> The conclusion from this is that you think no company will ever again make
> any product worth buying. Therefore you no longer buy anything -- right?

If another company makes a product that's "good enough," and HP copies
it and makes an identical product, the HP version is *not* "good enough"
-- and hence not worth buying -- because HP is supposed to be *better*.

>
> OK, you won't buy HP products because you're disappointed in how HP has changed.
> But why do you recommend others to not buy HP products? You've acknowledged
> yourself that HP's products are just like any other's product (i.e. they're no
> worse), so if others shouldn't buy HP products for lack of quality, they shouldn't
> buy any other products either - right?

I recommend against HP because I want to keep every penny I can out
of their pockets. I don't have the power to put HP out of business,
but that doesn't stop me from doing everything I can to damage their
reputation and cost them as much business as possible. For instance,
a few years ago my employer was trying to decide whether to spend tens
of thousands of dollars on a new Unix server from HP or Sun. When asked
for my opinion (as a former HP3000 and HP9000 system administrator)
about the purchase, I agreed with the people who were recommending Sun --
and that's what we purchased.

Wayne Brown

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Apr 18, 2006, 2:39:20 PM4/18/06
to
Joel Kolstad <JKolstad7...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> From a business point of view, there is no "competing" with RPN & large enter
> keys: Only a relatively small fraction of potential calculators buyers will
> begin to *recognize* that such a feature is in any way preferable to otherwise
> similar calculators from TI, etc. There was a time when HP was happy selling
> to this relatively small market, but those days appear to be long gone. These
> days I believe the S.O.P. is that, hey, if algebraic calculators outsell RPN
> calculators 100:1, then 10x as much effort will be put into algebraic
> development. This can't really be faulted from a "business school"
> perspective; it's what happens to all big companies that are run by "generic"
> boards that don't have any particular corporate vision other than to make
> money.

But I expect HP to be much better than any "business school" model;
I expect them to consider maintaining the Hewlett and Packard name and
traditions above anything else. If necessary, they should use the profits
from their printer business to subsidize their traditional product lines,
even if those other products make little or no money, just for the sake
of honoring those traditions.

Paul Schlyter

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Apr 19, 2006, 3:42:58 AM4/19/06
to
In article <sna1g.5420$4O2....@bignews7.bellsouth.net>,
Wayne Brown <fwb...@bellsouth.net> wrote:

> Joel Kolstad <JKolstad7...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> From a business point of view, there is no "competing" with RPN & large enter
>> keys: Only a relatively small fraction of potential calculators buyers will
>> begin to *recognize* that such a feature is in any way preferable to otherwise
>> similar calculators from TI, etc. There was a time when HP was happy selling
>> to this relatively small market, but those days appear to be long gone. These
>> days I believe the S.O.P. is that, hey, if algebraic calculators outsell RPN
>> calculators 100:1, then 10x as much effort will be put into algebraic
>> development. This can't really be faulted from a "business school"
>> perspective; it's what happens to all big companies that are run by "generic"
>> boards that don't have any particular corporate vision other than to make
>> money.
>
> But I expect HP to be much better than any "business school" model;
> I expect them to consider maintaining the Hewlett and Packard name and
> traditions above anything else. If necessary, they should use the profits
> from their printer business to subsidize their traditional product lines,
> even if those other products make little or no money, just for the sake
> of honoring those traditions.

Why don't you get rich enough to become a majority shareholder in HP?
If you did, you could actually have an influence here, instead of merely
whining on Usenet. Yep, that's the way Capitalism works: money gives you power!

Overthrowing Capitalism and replacing it with some other economical model
might be an alternative -- but if that happened, it's doubtful if HP would
survive as a company or other kind of organisation.

Paul Schlyter

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Apr 19, 2006, 3:42:58 AM4/19/06
to
In article <rna1g.5419$4O2....@bignews7.bellsouth.net>,
Wayne Brown <fwb...@bellsouth.net> wrote:

> Paul Schlyter <pau...@saaf.se> wrote:
>
>> OK -- thus you're claiming the following:
>>
>> - you have no hope that HP ever again will make any product worth buying
>>
>> - HP's products are nowadays no different than other products
>>
>> The conclusion from this is that you think no company will ever again make
>> any product worth buying. Therefore you no longer buy anything -- right?
>
> If another company makes a product that's "good enough," and HP copies
> it and makes an identical product, the HP version is *not* "good enough"
> -- and hence not worth buying -- because HP is supposed to be *better*.

Even if that identical copy would be cheaper?

Clinging to old dreams may be expensive in the long run....



>> OK, you won't buy HP products because you're disappointed in how HP has
>> changed. But why do you recommend others to not buy HP products? You've
>> acknowledged yourself that HP's products are just like any other's product
>> (i.e. they're no worse), so if others shouldn't buy HP products for lack of
>> quality, they shouldn't buy any other products either - right?
>
> I recommend against HP because I want to keep every penny I can out
> of their pockets. I don't have the power to put HP out of business,
> but that doesn't stop me from doing everything I can to damage their
> reputation and cost them as much business as possible. For instance,
> a few years ago my employer was trying to decide whether to spend tens
> of thousands of dollars on a new Unix server from HP or Sun. When asked
> for my opinion (as a former HP3000 and HP9000 system administrator)
> about the purchase, I agreed with the people who were recommending Sun --
> and that's what we purchased.

You recommended Sun, not because you think Sun was a better choice in
that case, but because you have bad feelings about HP. That's not a
good reason for such a decision.

If I had been working at your place, and your employer had asked me about
my opinion: suppose I recommended HP because I was pissed off at Sun for
some reason - what would you think about that? (if you wonder why anyone
would be pissed off at Sun: some years ago, Java almost got an ISO standard,
however Sun prevented that. As a result Java remains Sun's semi-proprietary
language, to be modified anytime at Sun's whim. Therefore we now have
multiple Java versions, mutually incompatible in small details, and old
Java applets cease working on new Java interpreters. I am actually a bit
pissed off at Sun because of that).

To summarize: you expect others to refrain from buying HP products just
because you're disappointed at HP. But are you prepared to refrain from
buying products from company X, just because fellow Y is disappointed
at company X for some reason? You recommended Sun, in spite of what
Sun did to Java .....

Veli-Pekka Nousiainen

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Apr 19, 2006, 8:28:12 AM4/19/06
to
"Paul Schlyter" <pau...@saaf.se> wrote in message
news:e24oan$15vm$1...@merope.saaf.se...
X

> Why don't you get rich enough to become a majority shareholder in HP?
> If you did, you could actually have an influence here, instead of merely
> whining on Usenet. Yep, that's the way Capitalism works: money gives you
> power!

I have sold my minority shares after Walther got fired


Wayne Brown

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Apr 19, 2006, 11:25:26 AM4/19/06
to
Paul Schlyter <pau...@saaf.se> wrote:
>
> You recommended Sun, not because you think Sun was a better choice in
> that case, but because you have bad feelings about HP. That's not a
> good reason for such a decision.

My actual recommendation went something like this: "I know a lot more
about HP's systems, because I used them for over a decade, but from what
I've seen of Sun this past year, I believe their systems are every bit
as good as HP's. And my recent dealings with HP have convinced me that
the company is unreliable. Their quality has been very uneven and seems
to be getting worse, their support is lousy, they flat-out LIE to their
customers, and the Board seems to be more interested in playing internal
politics and in short-term profits than in building quality products.
At one time I'd have recommended anything HP made without hesitation,
but these days I wouldn't risk buying anything from them at all."

> If I had been working at your place, and your employer had asked me about
> my opinion: suppose I recommended HP because I was pissed off at Sun for
> some reason - what would you think about that? (if you wonder why anyone
> would be pissed off at Sun: some years ago, Java almost got an ISO standard,
> however Sun prevented that. As a result Java remains Sun's semi-proprietary
> language, to be modified anytime at Sun's whim. Therefore we now have
> multiple Java versions, mutually incompatible in small details, and old
> Java applets cease working on new Java interpreters. I am actually a bit
> pissed off at Sun because of that).

I avoid Java whenever possible, so I really don't care what Sun did or
didn't do to it.

> To summarize: you expect others to refrain from buying HP products just
> because you're disappointed at HP. But are you prepared to refrain from
> buying products from company X, just because fellow Y is disappointed
> at company X for some reason? You recommended Sun, in spite of what
> Sun did to Java .....

People are free to listen to or ignore my recommendations as they choose,
and to make their own recommendations. That's their business. It won't
change what *I* recommend. I'm going to keep telling everyone who'll
listen that HP is crap.

Jean-Yves Avenard

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Apr 19, 2006, 12:36:38 PM4/19/06
to
John H Meyers wrote:
> Notice how the basic function keys: - + * /
> are all on the *left*
>
> The most frequently used keys: + *
> are also closest to the *center*
Yeah! I can't believe they put + and * on the left, I will *never* buy
an HP35 *ever* again.

Talking about this, I can not believe they use such a little amount of
silicon in today's chips. I want them to do like they used to with a
400nm process..
I will *never* *ever* buy a CPU anymore, how dare they! they all used
Intel too. Even Apple now is using Intel, i will *never* *ever* buy an
Apple product, they are no better than other.

I will also never *ever* buy petrol, they removed lead in petrol for my car.

I also won't buy *ever* *never* *ever* buy a car other than a good old
Volvo 240. Look at how they used to make car doors, at least 50kg each,
now that was quality! I will never ever never ever ever never buy a
Volvo ever again, they won't do any better than others. While i'm at it,
i will stop purchasing toyota, gm, ford.. they are no better.

Now, i'm kind of stuck in the US though, i can't travel with the United
747, those b****rd have removed the propellers. Never ever will I buy or
use a Boeing.
Can anybody give me the time? i had to throw away my watch.... i
realized some buttons were made of plastic.


JY

mk

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Apr 19, 2006, 1:21:33 PM4/19/06
to

Jean-Yves Avenard wrote:
> I will never ever never ever ever never buy a..

<8^P TOO FUNNY!!

Paul Schlyter

unread,
Apr 19, 2006, 2:43:45 PM4/19/06
to
In article <GDs1g.22636$Kh5....@bignews8.bellsouth.net>,
Wayne Brown <fwb...@bellsouth.net> wrote:

> Paul Schlyter <pau...@saaf.se> wrote:
>
>> You recommended Sun, not because you think Sun was a better choice in
>> that case, but because you have bad feelings about HP. That's not a
>> good reason for such a decision.
>
> My actual recommendation went something like this: "I know a lot more
> about HP's systems, because I used them for over a decade, but from what
> I've seen of Sun this past year, I believe their systems are every bit
> as good as HP's. And my recent dealings with HP have convinced me that
> the company is unreliable. Their quality has been very uneven and seems
> to be getting worse, their support is lousy, they flat-out LIE to their
> customers, and the Board seems to be more interested in playing internal
> politics and in short-term profits than in building quality products.
> At one time I'd have recommended anything HP made without hesitation,
> but these days I wouldn't risk buying anything from them at all."

And Sun does nothing of that? You don't know of course, since you know
HP much better than Sun.



>> If I had been working at your place, and your employer had asked me about
>> my opinion: suppose I recommended HP because I was pissed off at Sun for
>> some reason - what would you think about that? (if you wonder why anyone
>> would be pissed off at Sun: some years ago, Java almost got an ISO standard,
>> however Sun prevented that. As a result Java remains Sun's semi-proprietary
>> language, to be modified anytime at Sun's whim. Therefore we now have
>> multiple Java versions, mutually incompatible in small details, and old
>> Java applets cease working on new Java interpreters. I am actually a bit
>> pissed off at Sun because of that).
>
> I avoid Java whenever possible, so I really don't care what Sun did or
> didn't do to it.

Sometimes you don't have much choice -- suppose you wanted to put up a
web site with live content - what would you choose? Java? Active-X?
Flash? Something else? Using CGI with a traditional programming language
just don't work well in such a case.



>> To summarize: you expect others to refrain from buying HP products just
>> because you're disappointed at HP. But are you prepared to refrain from
>> buying products from company X, just because fellow Y is disappointed
>> at company X for some reason? You recommended Sun, in spite of what
>> Sun did to Java .....
>
> People are free to listen to or ignore my recommendations as they choose,
> and to make their own recommendations. That's their business. It won't
> change what *I* recommend. I'm going to keep telling everyone who'll
> listen that HP is crap.

I see -- doing so is a way for you to let out your disappointment about HP... :-)

Wayne Brown

unread,
Apr 19, 2006, 6:57:21 PM4/19/06
to
Paul Schlyter <pau...@saaf.se> wrote:
> In article <GDs1g.22636$Kh5....@bignews8.bellsouth.net>,
> Wayne Brown <fwb...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>
>> I avoid Java whenever possible, so I really don't care what Sun did or
>> didn't do to it.
>
> Sometimes you don't have much choice -- suppose you wanted to put up a
> web site with live content - what would you choose? Java? Active-X?
> Flash? Something else? Using CGI with a traditional programming language
> just don't work well in such a case.

That would not be a problem for me. I *despise* web sites with live
content, and never would want to create one.

duenod...@gmail.com

unread,
Apr 19, 2006, 9:02:37 PM4/19/06
to

mk ha escrito:

> Jean-Yves Avenard wrote:
> > I will never ever never ever ever never buy a..
>
> <8^P TOO FUNNY!!

It remain me the Cat Stevens song ... "stones with place / inside her
head /...."

So... I should await a nice surprise for Christmas !

Daniel

Paul Schlyter

unread,
Apr 20, 2006, 2:42:54 AM4/20/06
to
In article <lfz1g.3319$oW1....@bignews1.bellsouth.net>,
Wayne Brown <fwb...@bellsouth.net> wrote:

> Paul Schlyter <pau...@saaf.se> wrote:
>> In article <GDs1g.22636$Kh5....@bignews8.bellsouth.net>,
>> Wayne Brown <fwb...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> I avoid Java whenever possible, so I really don't care what Sun did or
>>> didn't do to it.
>>
>> Sometimes you don't have much choice -- suppose you wanted to put up a
>> web site with live content - what would you choose? Java? Active-X?
>> Flash? Something else? Using CGI with a traditional programming language
>> just don't work well in such a case.
>
> That would not be a problem for me. I *despise* web sites with live
> content, and never would want to create one.

Java is useful not only for web pages with live content. Actually it
originated as a language intended for embedded devices, and you might
have Java code running in e.g. your cell phone, or in several of
your chip cards (credit cards with a chip on the card). But perhaps
you despise embedded devices as well?

Raymond Del Tondo

unread,
Apr 20, 2006, 5:45:07 AM4/20/06
to
Hi,

"Paul Schlyter" <pau...@saaf.se> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:e2792f$jfe$1...@merope.saaf.se...


> In article <lfz1g.3319$oW1....@bignews1.bellsouth.net>,
> Wayne Brown <fwb...@bellsouth.net> wrote:

> [..]


> Java is useful not only for web pages with live content. Actually it
> originated as a language intended for embedded devices, and you might

> have Java code running [..]
>
You certainly mean 'walking' ;-)

I made my experiences with Java development,

first with Beans (shudder...) , then with Eclipse, JBoss and PostGreSQL
(better) ,
then with VC# , IIS, MS SQL Server and ORACLE.
C# is, simplified speaking, another Java implementation,
with MS-typical incompatibilities.

The latter SDK has the best integration into Win,
and nice and easy database connector facilities,
but the code is more difficult to trace IMHO.

However, at least on a Windows box,
you'll see it when a Java prog is running (ugly),
even if you set the layouts to 'Windows',
and feel it, because it is terribly slow
and memory-consuming...

I also try to avoid Java wherever possible;-)


Regards

Raymond


Paul Schlyter

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Apr 20, 2006, 7:43:08 AM4/20/06
to
In article <e27l8a$qss$03$1...@news.t-online.com>,

Raymond Del Tondo <RD...@gmx.de> wrote:
>Hi,
>
>"Paul Schlyter" <pau...@saaf.se> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
>news:e2792f$jfe$1...@merope.saaf.se...
>> In article <lfz1g.3319$oW1....@bignews1.bellsouth.net>,
>> Wayne Brown <fwb...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>> [..]
>> Java is useful not only for web pages with live content. Actually it
>> originated as a language intended for embedded devices, and you might
>> have Java code running [..]
>>
>You certainly mean 'walking' ;-)

:-)

Actualy, Java might be the answer to the question "....but what are
we going to use all these CPU cycles for...." <g>

....just like XML may be the answer to the question "....but what are
we going to use all these huge harddisks and all this net bandwidth
for...." <g><g><g>

If you're running a heavily CPU hungry application, and need real
performance, Java should of course be avoided. But the applications
most people are running aren't particularly heavy - and in those cases,
the lacluster run-time performance of Java is not a problem.

In a way, Java is a deja-vu of UCSD Pascal of the late 1970's and early
1980's: UCSD Pascal also strived for portability of the run-time binaries
by specifying a virtual machine om which all UCSD Pascal programs was
supposed to run. But simulating a virtual machine always means a
performance penalty, and back then CPU cycles weren't over-abundant
as they are today, when even a quite low-tech laptop outperforms the
former supercomputer Cray-1. So UCSD Pascal failed.

Java appeared at a better time, when CPU cycles were over-abundant,
and in addition when most computers of the world were interconnected
over the Net.


>I made my experiences with Java development,
>
>first with Beans (shudder...) , then with Eclipse, JBoss and PostGreSQL
>(better) ,
>then with VC# , IIS, MS SQL Server and ORACLE.

FYI: IIS, MS SQL Server and Oracle aren't Java IDE's.... :-)

>C# is, simplified speaking, another Java implementation,
>with MS-typical incompatibilities.

Nah -- with Borland typical incompatibilities! "But C# isn't
a Borland product!" I hear you shout - true, but C# was designed
by Anders Hejlsberg, former implementor of Borlands first flagship
product "Turbo Pascal" (which initially indeed was faster than
contemporary Pascal compilers). Yep, MS bought over Hejlsberg from
Borland, so now Hejlsberg works for Microsoft instead (interestingly,
Hejlsberg first went to Microsoft with his Pascal compiler -- but
Microsoft weren't interested! So Hejlsberg instead found that little
basement company Borland, who immediately bought his product and hired
him. Kind'a like when, in 1962, Decca Records said "no" to The Beatles).

And when Hejlsberg implemented what later was to be known as Turbo
pascal, he also broke the pascal standards.

Regarding C#, Hejlsberg has managed to turn the table though: C# has an
ECMA standard, ECMA-334, available for free at:

http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-334.htm

while Sun has refused to have a standard for Java developed. So one
could discuss which language is the most non-standard: ECMA-334 (i.e. C#)
or Java (which has no standard specification)....

Anyway, due to Hejlsberg involvement in C# and his former involvement
in Turbo Pascal, for fun I sometimes refer to C# as "Turbo Java".....


>The latter SDK has the best integration into Win,
>and nice and easy database connector facilities,
>but the code is more difficult to trace IMHO.
>
>However, at least on a Windows box,
>you'll see it when a Java prog is running (ugly),
>even if you set the layouts to 'Windows',
>and feel it, because it is terribly slow
>and memory-consuming...
>
>I also try to avoid Java wherever possible;-)

Does "whenever possible" to you mean "always and always"
or "whenever reasonably possible" ? :-)

I fully agree with you though that running a piece of software
on its native platform is preferable. And the largest disadvantage
with Java is that it lacks a native platform -- the Java platform
must always be simulated.

Wayne Brown

unread,
Apr 20, 2006, 12:08:52 PM4/20/06
to
Paul Schlyter <pau...@saaf.se> wrote:
>
> Java is useful not only for web pages with live content. Actually it
> originated as a language intended for embedded devices, and you might
> have Java code running in e.g. your cell phone, or in several of
> your chip cards (credit cards with a chip on the card). But perhaps
> you despise embedded devices as well?

I certainly despise cell phones, and so far have successfully avoided
getting one. But it's getting harder and harder to avoid. The problem
is that, once I have one, people will expect me to keep the blasted
thing turned on...

Paul Schlyter

unread,
Apr 21, 2006, 3:43:39 AM4/21/06
to
In article <omO1g.23731$Kh5....@bignews8.bellsouth.net>,
Wayne Brown <fwb...@bellsouth.net> wrote:

> Paul Schlyter <pau...@saaf.se> wrote:
>
>> Java is useful not only for web pages with live content. Actually it
>> originated as a language intended for embedded devices, and you might
>> have Java code running in e.g. your cell phone, or in several of
>> your chip cards (credit cards with a chip on the card). But perhaps
>> you despise embedded devices as well?
>
> I certainly despise cell phones, and so far have successfully avoided
> getting one. But it's getting harder and harder to avoid.

You sound a little bit like my father: he always refused to use
computers and preferred mechanical calculators. OK, he accepted
electronic calculators as long as they weren't programmable, but he
refused to take the step over to computers. He was fond of telling a
story from the 1950's when he and a colleague of him set out to solve
the same problem: the colleague used BESK (a vacuum tube based
computer here in Sweden, programmable in machine language. It was the
world's fastest computer a few weeks back in 1955. Today pieces of it
are on display in our technical museum here in Stockholm), while my
father used a mechanical calculator. My father solved the problem
faster, and he got it right, while his colleague took a longer time,
and got it wrong. Of course BESK was a real pig to use, and a lot has
happened in the computer business since then. Still, my father
avoided computers for almost five decades after that. Today he is
83 years old, and a few years ago he finally bought his first
computer: a HP laptop PC (I hope you'll excuse him for choosing a HP
laptop - he knew absolutely nothing about how bad HP treated you... <g>)

> The problem is that, once I have one, people will expect me to keep the
> blasted thing turned on...

My father (83 years) has had a cell phone for some 5 years. He doesn't
keep it turned on all the time....

Yes, it is getting harder and harder to live without a cell phone -
much because phone booths are getting rarer and rarer. It's a bit as
with cars: it's harder and harder to live without one (at least
outside metropolitan areas with good public transportation) because
train and bus lines are removed (they have too few passengers - people
take the car instead), plus a common expectation of greater mobility
in general.

Yet it's important to remember that if you get a cell phone, its yours.
Not your friends' but yours. You decide how you use it, when you turn
it on, or off. And if your friends would be dissatisfied if you didn't
have your cell phone on at all times, aren't they even more dissatisfied
with you not even having a cell phone?

I've had a cell phone for some 8 years -- and I don't keep it on at
all times. Actually I now have several cell phones: one is provided
by my employer (it's a necessity there, sicne I sometimes at work
develop software which involves cell phones - and then I need a
testing device). One is for myself, and I basically use it as a
replacement for the now missing phone boots. Another one wanders
around in the family as needed - but it's less needed for that now,
since the kids now have one cell phone each (none of the kids wanted
to take over the "family cell phone" - it's far too big!).

Raymond Del Tondo

unread,
Apr 21, 2006, 3:54:39 AM4/21/06
to
Hi,

"Paul Schlyter" <pau...@saaf.se> schrieb im Newsbeitrag

news:e27qgq$pgm$1...@merope.saaf.se...


> In article <e27l8a$qss$03$1...@news.t-online.com>,
> Raymond Del Tondo <RD...@gmx.de> wrote:
>>Hi,
>>
>>"Paul Schlyter" <pau...@saaf.se> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
>>news:e2792f$jfe$1...@merope.saaf.se...
>>

> FYI: IIS, MS SQL Server and Oracle aren't Java IDE's.... :-)
>

Yep, I know;-)

We only needed them as data containers...
BTW: Oracle's Enterprise Manager is written in Java,
at least from 8.x on.
It's a horrible example of bad programming...
Better use the cmd line tools, or maybe TOAD.
AFAIK the EM of (up to) v7.x.x was made using OracleForms,
also not a highlight regarding the programming style and user interface,
but responding much faster than the newer versions.


>> [..Roots of Java / C# (TurboJava;-)..]
>> [..]
>
Many thanks for the background infos:-)
I must admit that I didn't dig into it that far.

>>I also try to avoid Java wherever possible;-)
>
> Does "whenever possible" to you mean "always and always"
> or "whenever reasonably possible" ? :-)
>

Currently it means 'always', since my main profession
is database design, impementation, and optimization.

Fortunately there are other guys who like Java more than I do,
and those guys are responsible for the UI;-)

For many years, I also made industrial C/S DB applications
using Centura Team Developer (partly OO). That was fun!


> I fully agree with you though that running a piece of software
> on its native platform is preferable. And the largest disadvantage
> with Java is that it lacks a native platform -- the Java platform
> must always be simulated.
>

So maybe Qt could be a solution.
I haven't tried it yet, but from what I read,
the result is native code for the target platform,
w/o the need for an emulation layer

Ok, C++ may be more dangerous or difficult to handle than Java,
and not as consequent regarding OO, but it also works, and fast;-)


Regards

Raymond


Paul Schlyter

unread,
Apr 21, 2006, 5:43:15 AM4/21/06
to
In article <e2a3id$4c9$03$1...@news.t-online.com>,

Raymond Del Tondo <RD...@gmx.de> wrote:
>Hi,
>
>"Paul Schlyter" <pau...@saaf.se> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
>news:e27qgq$pgm$1...@merope.saaf.se...

................

>>>I also try to avoid Java wherever possible;-)
>>
>> Does "whenever possible" to you mean "always and always"
>> or "whenever reasonably possible" ? :-)
>>
>Currently it means 'always', since my main profession
>is database design, impementation, and optimization.

That's something _I_ wanted to stay way from -- and I've managed
eretty well so far.... :-)

>Fortunately there are other guys who like Java more than I do,
>and those guys are responsible for the UI;-)
>
>For many years, I also made industrial C/S DB applications
>using Centura Team Developer (partly OO). That was fun!
>
>
>> I fully agree with you though that running a piece of software
>> on its native platform is preferable. And the largest disadvantage
>> with Java is that it lacks a native platform -- the Java platform
>> must always be simulated.
>>
>So maybe Qt could be a solution.
>I haven't tried it yet, but from what I read,
>the result is native code for the target platform,
>w/o the need for an emulation layer
>
>Ok, C++ may be more dangerous or difficult to handle than Java,
>and not as consequent regarding OO, but it also works, and fast;-)

Anything which can be done in C++ can also be done in C .... :-)

C++ is definitely faster, it's more fun, it's a native language.
And it's more dangerous: any mistake you can do in C you can do
even more forcefully in C++:

http://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/susan/joke/foot.htm

IMO the biggest problem with C and C++ in non-trivial programs is
making sure you really get rid of memory leaks. This can be
particularly troublesome in multi-threaded applications. About a
years ago I spent over a month chasing memory leaks in an embedded
application: an email client which was to be run in a cell phone
with an ARM CPU. The application was written in C, for performance
reasons.

Regarding the issue of memory leaks: here Java shines -- the run-time
system takes care of freeing objects you don't need anymore: nothing
is left there "forever", and there can not be any dangling references
to a free'd object. Of course this also has a back side: you have
no control over when something is freed. This matters if the object
contains sensitive data such as some secret password, and you want it
removed asap after it's been used.

>Regards
>
>Raymond

Veli-Pekka Nousiainen

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Apr 22, 2006, 6:10:06 AM4/22/06
to
"Paul Schlyter" <pau...@saaf.se> wrote in message
news:e2a272$1knm$1...@merope.saaf.se...

> In article <omO1g.23731$Kh5....@bignews8.bellsouth.net>,
> Wayne Brown <fwb...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>> Paul Schlyter <pau...@saaf.se> wrote:
>>
>>> Java is useful not only for web pages with live content. Actually it
>>> originated as a language intended for embedded devices, and you might
>>> have Java code running in e.g. your cell phone, or in several of
>>> your chip cards (credit cards with a chip on the card). But perhaps
>>> you despise embedded devices as well?
>>
>> I certainly despise cell phones, and so far have successfully avoided
>> getting one. But it's getting harder and harder to avoid.
X

>> The problem is that, once I have one, people will expect me to keep the
>> blasted thing turned on...
>
> My father (83 years) has had a cell phone for some 5 years. He doesn't
> keep it turned on all the time....

Neither do I, I also don't have an answering service
People can use text messages for that
I enjoy reading them at my pace

I have two separate numbers
One for work and one for personal use
=> I can close work phone when working hours are over for the day


Computer Operator

unread,
Nov 13, 2006, 1:24:27 AM11/13/06
to
"manjo" <not-avail...@rocketmail.com> wrote in
news:e1o53t$r32$1...@ss405.t-com.hr:

> Hello here's how i think it is :
>
> I was a big fan and supporter of the ENTER key (tm) like it was, BUT
> I admit i got used to the new keyboard. It is very nice (once you get
> used to it of course)
> I gotused to it so much that when working with old SX i keep hitting
> "+" :-)
>
> The great deal of users got used to new tiny ENTER with 49G and newer
> 49G+ 48GII
>
> If the ENTER key was re-built in early days i would realy apreciate
> it. But now when there are about same number of people
> respecting the traditional ENTER like the people (including me) who
> accepted the new keyboard, design and platform...
>
> Alternatives, of course it is good to have alternative
> If i was HP i would either :
> 1. take a sub-contractor to make alternative units based on the same
> platform)
> 2. make it skin-able (not impossible), just imagine, getting your core
> part and then
> choose among 4-5 skins, among them one traditional (big enter and so
> on) one the new G+ look one old 49G and so on...
>
> Remember, different people see things differently.
> Once you get the product to the market you hope you did the best to
> make it appealing to most people.
>
> I agree HP's calculators lost some of their trade-marks :
> -big enter
> -durable plastic
> -dark color etc...
>
> on the other hand gained :
> -affordability
> -upgradability
> -more standard calculator design
> -lower production cost
> -new generation platform (can keep up for next decade)
>
> just some thoughts, regards
> manjo
>
>
>

On the bottom of my TI-36 Calc, it says S C I E N T I F I C

I want an HP to sell one which reads E N G I N E E R I N G

'nuff here.

Computer Operator

unread,
Nov 13, 2006, 1:31:52 AM11/13/06
to
Computer Operator <0@0.0> wrote in news:Xns9879EE5364086000@
140.99.99.130:

O.K. more-

There are only a few hundred thousand people who would buy it..

Us.

Computer Operator

unread,
Nov 13, 2006, 1:59:42 AM11/13/06
to
Computer Operator <0@0.0> wrote in news:Xns9879EF9522B72000@
140.99.99.130:

Well Lets hear it once -


-am I just talkin' to a breeze ?

You there ? Don't mess with me, I don't like combining:

Designed in Poland (Operates Postfix)
Made in China (Made Cheaply)
Feels Russian (Works Cheaply)
Mistaken for Danish (Slippery style)
Has a "+" in the Model Name (Better-er Market)
Made for an Ink-Jet distributor (Not involved W/ Engineers)
Breaks down (Oh, well . . . )


Would you buy it with the Big ENTER, it's Logical keystroke placment
and a sturdy bang-proof case ?

-or shall you just slip off the face of the earth..

Do you want it fixed ?


John Nguyen

unread,
Nov 13, 2006, 11:03:05 AM11/13/06
to

On 11/13/2006 1:59 AM, Computer Operator wrote:

> Would you buy it with the Big ENTER, it's Logical keystroke placment
> and a sturdy bang-proof case ?
>
> -or shall you just slip off the face of the earth..
>
> Do you want it fixed ?

I would definitely want the large ENTER key. It doesn't matter if
it's located on the left hand side or the lower right. It doesn't
matter if it's vertical or horizontal. I just want it to take up at
least two key spaces.

John

manjo

unread,
Nov 13, 2006, 11:22:55 AM11/13/06
to
> I would definitely want the large ENTER key. It doesn't matter if
> it's located on the left hand side or the lower right. It doesn't
> matter if it's vertical or horizontal. I just want it to take up at
> least two key spaces.

maybe it would be nice if numeric (lower) section of keybaord was exact copy
of PC keyboard numeric section.

Also it would be nice if you would plug the USB cable to calculator and
the popup (on calculator) would jump and ask you if you want to:

1. use calculator as a USB(flash) removable drive(s)
(use calculator as SD/MMC card reader)

2. use calculator as external (numeric) keyboard/keypad

3. use calculator as USB to IrDA bridge

4. use calculator in HOST mode -external driver would autoload by device
name (if present)

Is this very far from reality ?

manjo


Wayne Brown

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Nov 13, 2006, 12:48:23 PM11/13/06
to

That's how I feel about it.

--
Wayne Brown <fwb...@bellsouth.net> (HPCC #1104)

Þæs ofereode, ðisses swa mæg. ("That passed away, this also can.")
"Deor," from the Exeter Book (folios 100r-100v)

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