Re: HP Prime 2013 New calculator - Video

[Harold A Climer]

On Fri, 19 Apr 2013 16:44:47 -0700 (PDT), g...@gaak.org wrote:

>First video, confirmed new full color calculator.
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7dw0CEDoRg
>
>Cheers.
>http://www.gaak.org

Nice Pictures, but what can it really do:

1.What programming language will it have, if any?
2.RAM And ROM size.
3. Is it Flash upgradable?
4.Will free user programs be available and will older programs both
RPL and SYSRPL be usable? Where will they be located and in what
format?
5.Connectivity software and hardware; will it be available and when?
Cost if any. Input and output ports.
6 HP created applications and cost.
7.Battery Life( How many Charge/discharge cycles) and battery cost;
and will the battery be a proprietary HP battery or one that can be
obtained at Radio Shack, etc?
8. Probably other stuff I can not think of at present.

Remember HP sells cheap, but usually good printers, and then beats you
to death with the cost of inks.
I hope this do not apply too much to this new calculator.
Also the blurb talks about the Education market, how well can this
calculator work for professionals in other areas beside education.

Hoping it is not just a TI Inspire clone.
At present it is just a pig in a poke.
For many year HP calculator users have be clamoring for a lot of the
stuff that this new calculator is supposed to have. I hope they will
not be disappointed.
Harold A Climer
Dept.Of Physics,Geology,and Astronomy
U.T Chattanooga
Room 223 Grote Hall
615 McCallie Ave
Chattanooga TN 37403
Harold...@utc.edu

[A.L.]

On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 09:43:52 -0400, Harold A Climer
<Harold...@utc.edu> wrote:
k for professionals in other areas beside education.
>
>Hoping it is not just a TI Inspire clone.

I am afraid it IS Inspire clone. Looks like HP is trying to compete on
educational market. What is clever move

A.L.

P.S. Of course, if this movie is not fake. Most likely it is

[Gustavo Portales]

HP Prime: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7dw0CEDoRg

Maybe a TI clone (Nspire CX) but from Hewlett-Packard.
I have a TI Nspire Touchpad and is not good for programming purposes, but is many many faster than my hp50g. This TI just contains basic programming, without display routines (except Disp in-line command).

HP Prime announced by HHC conference and assuming availability from October 2013, many time to wait...
http://hhuc.us/2013/

Cheers.
http://www.gaak.org

[TW]

> 1.What programming language will it have, if any?

Same language that is found on the 39gII. Very simple function based language that takes cues from pascal. Allows embedded comments using //, subroutines, exported or local functions/variables and similar type things.

EXPORT NQUEENS()
BEGIN
R:=8;
L1:=MAKELIST(0,X,1,R,1);
S:=0;
X:=0;
REPEAT
X:=X+1;
L1(X):=R;
REPEAT
S:=S+1;
Y:=X;
WHILE Y>1 DO
Y:=Y-1;
T:=L1(X)-L1(Y);
IF T==0 OR X-Y==ABS(T) THEN
Y:=0;
L1(X):=L1(X)-1;
WHILE L1(X)==0 DO
X:=X-1;
L1(X):=L1(X)-1;
END;
END;
END;
UNTIL Y==1 END;
UNTIL X==R END;
S;
END;


> 2.RAM And ROM size.

256MB flash, 32mb ram.

> 3. Is it Flash upgradable?

Of course. Won't even have to mess with pins in the back... :-)

> 4.Will free user programs be available

depends if anyone makes any

>and will older programs both
> RPL and SYSRPL be usable?

Not a chance.

> 5.Connectivity software and hardware; will it be available and when?

Micro USB. Optional wireless dongle.

> 6 HP created applications and cost.

Built into the unit. 149.95$US MSRP. Fall.

> 7.Battery Life( How many Charge/discharge cycles) and battery cost;

Dunno. Same as other li-ion packs I'd assume. Uses a battery that is the same electrical configuration and dimensions of a very popular cellular phone released last year that has a 2200mah battery.

> Hoping it is not just a TI Inspire clone.

Nope. Takes the good stuff from the 38/39 series design philosophy that is present in the 39gII and expands and improves upon it, exposes a professional level CAS to the user but not in the same way as the 50g where the CAS sticks its nose into calculations when not wanted, and adds quite a bit more not there on the 39gII. Few things that come to mind include:

-Very powerful graphing capability that allows graphing of things never before possible on a handheld graphing calculator before.
-Full spreadsheet allowing evaluation of things in numeric or CAS modes.
-Improved base/integer support that allows mixing of bases, integer word sizes, signed/unsigned values
-Full 2D editing of all mathematical objects directly in the command line (matrices, lists, units, and so on)
-Greatly improved program editing, note formatting capability, built in help, Embeddable images and 2d mathematical expressions.
-Much more powerful and capable CAS then the 50g.
-Textbook (2d) entry, algebraic, RPN


What people seem to think of as "nspire" clone comes from the fact that the upper part of the unit slightly resembles the nspire. In all actuality, the placement of the arrow pad in the middle of the unit is dictated by the slim thickness of the device. When you hold the thing in your hand, it is actually a bit cumbersome to have it too far on the left/right. The natural placement location *is* actually in the middle. It was quite surprising to me too.

> stuff that this new calculator is supposed to have. I hope they will
> not be disappointed.

Of course there will be plenty of disappointed people. People are always disappointed. I submit for consideration: http://xkcd.com/1172/

The 50g isn't going away or anything thought...

TW

[Jacob Wall]

On Saturday, April 27, 2013 2:01:32 PM UTC-7, TW wrote:
> > 4.Will free user programs be available
>
>
>
> depends if anyone makes any

This begs the question whether there might be a SDK that could be used to create full UI software that can be loaded onto the calculator? From what I've seen in regards to the 39gii user programming it appears that it is very limited in terms of user interface, I could be wrong.

The hardware specs sound very good and I certainly would love to write software for a machine like the HP Prime, even if it means switching to C (from System RPL), which I am assuming the built-in software is?

Jacob

[John H Meyers]

Reviews of stuff already in the marketplace:

<http://www.techpoweredmath.com/ti-nspire-cx-vs-casio-prizm/>

<http://szamologep.blogspot.com/2011/02/casio-prizm-vs-ti-nspire-cx.html> [Hungarian?]

Casio seems to like hard covers (like original HP49G)
<http://tddselect.topdollardeals.com/images/images_extra/3942749-0.jpg>

Casio Prizm Vs Nspire CX CAS (Actually doing stuff)
[Emulator vs. emulator]
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unby9HdoAHs>

I suppose this brings up natural questions -- do any computer emulator(s)
accompany the "Prime"? For users vs. teachers?

Why the long face?
<http://www.casio-usa.com/news/content/Casio_Introduces_Latest_Addition_to_the_Classpad_Series_at_NCTM_2013/>

-[ ]-

[in...@ti-bank.fr]

Color calculators comparison :
http://www.calc-bank.com/index.php?mod=news&ac=commentaires&id=1913

[George Litauszky]

><http://szamologep.blogspot.com/2011/02/casio-prizm-vs-ti-nspire-cx.html> [Hungarian?]
Yes.

[Wes]

Tim,

As an AP-Calculus/AP-Physics teacher, I'm very excited to see the announcement of the Prime, especially that it was announced at the NCTM. I love my 50g, but I am hesitant to recommend it to any but my sharpest students. From what little I've seen so far, the Prime looks like something that I'll be able to recommend to all. I'm encouraged to hear about the input from teachers.

I realize you are restricted in what you can openly discuss at this time, but I'm curious about several issues that come up in classroom and personal use.

1) Will numeric integration use Romberg or Gauss-Kronrod?
2) Will sqrt(-8) = -2 or 1+i*sqrt(3) in real/complex mode?
3) Will {1,2}+{3,4} = {4,6} or {1,2,3,4} ?
4) Will FOR loops be able to execute zero times?

Thanks. Looking forward to "in the Fall."

-wes

[Wes]

On Sunday, April 28, 2013 4:21:43 PM UTC+3, Wes wrote:
> 2) Will sqrt(-8) = -2 or 1+i*sqrt(3) in real/complex mode?

I meant cuberoot(-8).

[TW]

> 1) Will numeric integration use Romberg or Gauss-Kronrod?

If done in the "numerical" part of the system, it is the same as the math library from the 50g.

If being done in the CAS, Gauss-Kronrod is used I believe. Not 100% sure on that.

> 2) Will sqrt(-8) = -2 or 1+i*sqrt(3) in real/complex mode?

The numerical side of the system is the same math library as found in the 50g. Returns -2. The CAS behaves differently of course. There is not really a "real/complex" mode like the 50g.

> 3) Will {1,2}+{3,4} = {4,6} or {1,2,3,4} ?

{4,6} CONCAT is the command for joining lists.

> 4) Will FOR loops be able to execute zero times?

Yes.

ForTest(a)
BEGIN
X:=0;
FOR I FROM 1 TO a DO
X:=X+1;
END;
END;

Behaves as expected for a<1.

TW

[Wes]

Tim,

Thanks for humoring us with our curiosities. (We're like kids shaking our presents trying to figure out what we're going to get.)

> The numerical side of the system is the same math library as found in the
> 50g. Returns -2. The CAS behaves differently of course. There is not really a
> "real/complex" mode like the 50g.

Interesting. Does this imply that the 50g numeric math library will be running under Saturn emulation while the CAS will not? Or was the math library ported to native code?

> > 3) Will {1,2}+{3,4} = {4,6} or {1,2,3,4} ?
> {4,6} CONCAT is the command for joining lists.
>
> > 4) Will FOR loops be able to execute zero times?
> Yes.

Good deal. Thanks for making these more consistent with expected behavior.

As much as I like programming in RPL, I think making the programming language more like Pascal while still allowing RPN (RPL?) for interactive use is probably a good choice for the education market.

We look forward to hearing more details as is allowed.

-wes

[DavidM]

On Monday, April 29, 2013 3:10:48 PM UTC-4, Wes wrote:
> Thanks for humoring us with our curiosities. (We're like kids shaking our presents trying to figure out what we're going to get.)

A nice analogy. :-)

> > The numerical side of the system is the same math library as found in the

> > 50g. Returns -2. The CAS behaves differently of course. There is not really...

> Interesting. Does this imply that the 50g numeric math library will be running under Saturn emulation while the CAS will not? Or was the math library ported to native code?

I'm very curious about this as well. I've seen Tim's other comments about the 50g "not going anywhere", so perhaps there's an intent to maintain a consistent code base for some portion of the shared functionality that the Prime and 50g may have. Or maybe they just didn't have the resources to translate all that legacy code... ;-)

> As much as I like programming in RPL, I think making the programming language more like Pascal while still allowing RPN (RPL?) for interactive use is probably a good choice for the education market.

Although I recognize that designing a calculating product for the educational market practically guarantees functional limitations, I still hope that hp is successful with the Prime there. That's the only market large enough to warrant mass production of a new device of this type nowadays. If they generate a sustainable revenue stream that way, then perhaps we will see other models with different functionality if they don't have to retool the hardware too much. One can dream!

> We look forward to hearing more details as is allowed.

+1!

Thanks for sharing what you can, Tim. We know it's a delicate balance at present.

[TW]

> Interesting. Does this imply that the 50g numeric math library will be running under Saturn emulation while the CAS will not? Or was the math library ported to native code?

No emulation. There was a C version of the HP math library created back for the original 10bII (I think it was a assembly->C converter program type thing - long before my time).

It was later redone to be more "C" like for maintainability with the 20b where a pure C library was used. Still is BCD based, but now totally portable and easy to maintain. Since then it was used in the 39gII where it was expanded and improved upon.

> Good deal. Thanks for making these more consistent with expected behavior.

Yeah, I never liked that either myself. Understand why it was done that way though.

> As much as I like programming in RPL, I think making the programming language more like Pascal while still allowing RPN (RPL?) for interactive use is probably a good choice for the education market.

Yeah. I personally like RPL type programming myself, but I also do recognize that while it excels at allowing quick little stub routine to automate calculations, it really is very difficult to understand weeks/months later when you want to edit it and expand/modify things. Usually, you have to step through and watch the stack or use a piece of paper for anything slightly complicated.

You can still make little stub "functions" very easily by using the "Define" button. Basically, you type in an expression/forumla, select which inputs are meant to be taken as arguments, press OK and you've generated a user function that can be used anywhere, plotted and so on.


A larger more complicated program can look like below. Thanks go to the person that wrote this (they are under a CDA agreement so I won't name them here).

Everything past the line is a copy/paste from the program file you edit on the calculator. Comments are not lost on compile! :-)

TW
-----------------------------------------------------------

// Mandelbrot set for the HP Prime
// Date : April 2013
// Version 1.0

iteration(c, bailoutValue, maxIter)
BEGIN
LOCAL iter := 0;
LOCAL z := (0,0);
WHILE (ABS(z) <= bailoutValue) AND (iter < maxIter) DO
z := z*z+c;
iter := iter+1;
END;
RETURN iter;
END;

LSclr(Ndx)
BEGIN
Ndx := ROUND(Ndx*186,0);
IF Ndx < 31 THEN RETURN 0+ 1*Ndx; END;
IF Ndx < 62 THEN RETURN 31+ 32*(Ndx-31); END;
IF Ndx < 93 THEN RETURN 1023- 1*(Ndx-62); END;
IF Ndx < 124 THEN RETURN 992+ 1024*(Ndx-93); END;
IF Ndx < 155 THEN RETURN 32736- 32*(Ndx-124); END;
IF Ndx < 186 THEN RETURN 31744+ 1*(Ndx-155); END;
RETURN 31775;
END;

colorize(itVal, maxIt)
BEGIN
IF itVal==maxIt THEN
// we're inside the Mandelbrot map
// so draw the pixel in black
RETURN 0;
ELSE
RETURN LSclr(itVal/maxIt);
END;
END;

EXPORT Mandelbrot()
BEGIN
// clear the screen (G0):
RECT();

LOCAL dx, dy, c, xp, yp;
LOCAL iter, color;

// these 4 variables define
// our window of the complex
// plane:
LOCAL xmin, xmax, ymin, ymax;

LOCAL maxIterations := 50;
LOCAL maxRadius := 2;

// Location
// ratio width:height should be 4:3
xmin := -2.5;
xmax := 1.5;
ymin := -1.5;
ymax := 1.5;
// another nice set of parameters:
//xmin := 0.315625;
//xmax := 0.515625;
//ymin := 0.28125;
//ymax := 0.43125;

dx := (xmax-xmin)/320;
dy := (ymax-ymin)/240;
c := (xmin,ymin);

// we loop over every pixel
// of the Prime's screen:
FOR yp FROM 0 TO 239 DO
FOR xp FROM 0 TO 319 DO
// create the complex number c
// we need for the iteration:
c := (xmin+xp*dx, ymax-yp*dy);

// now iterate the formula and
// get back the number of
// iteration steps it took until
// the complex number jumped out
// of the convergence radius:
iter := iteration(c, maxRadius, maxIterations);

// determine a color for this iteration number:
color := colorize(iter, maxIterations);

// set the pixel in that color:
PIXON_P(xp, yp, color);
END;
END;

// leave the image on the screen
// until a key is pressed:
REPEAT UNTIL GETKEY() == -1;
FREEZE;
END;

[BartdB]

>
>
> Yeah. I personally like RPL type programming myself, but I also do recognize
> that while it excels at allowing quick little stub routine to automate
> calculations, it really is very difficult to understand weeks/months later when
> you want to edit it and expand/modify things. Usually, you have to step through
> and watch the stack or use a piece of paper for anything slightly complicated.
>

I don't really find it any more difficult to understand a program months/ears later, whether written in RPL or any other programmming language. For me, it more has to do with the comments. I did most of my RPL on the calculator but other programming on a PC, where it is MUCH easier to add comments (on a calculator it is not only a pain to type text, but uses valuable bytes). Of course, utilties like HPUserEdit help but I have only started using that more recently.

As far as Pascal-like programming goes, I would be happy with it as I did my first programming course in Pascal.

I think the Prime looks like the right product for HP calculators at this time,
** I just hope they are virtually bugless from day 1 **
Recent releases from HP have been far too buggy for me to even bother with this one - not even recommending to math teachers that I know.

[in...@ti-bank.fr]

Is there a BIP( command on the HP Prime ?

[John H Meyers]

On 4/28/2013 2:59 PM, TW wrote:

>> 1) Will numeric integration use Romberg or Gauss-Kronrod?
>
> If done in the "numerical" part of the system, it is the same as the math library from the 50g.
> If being done in the CAS, Gauss-Kronrod is used I believe. Not 100% sure on that.

Where would BP have found room in HP49/50 ROM for a completely redundant function,
not to mention a more labor-intensive one?

You can sort of "trace" any numeric integration,
at least on the HP48/49/50 (and even earlier models),
by implementing the function to be integrated
as a program which makes an independent list
of all input values for which it was evaluated,
and this evidence ought to lead to a quick conclusion,
as to whether on all of the above models,
as well as any way of invoking numeric integration,
exactly the same input values are used
in each successive iteration.

[r->] [OFF]

[Jacob Wall]

I'm guessing the SDK questions, etc. we will have to wait to find the answers to.

One other question I'm curious if Tim may be able to answer is how many digits the HP Prime will use or have available for calculations (approximate, real, etc.) 12? 15? or? The 15 digits available with extended reals on the 50g are certainly sufficient for most realistic calculations but I'm curious if we might see this expanded upon with the new model.

Jacob

[Wes]

On Saturday, May 4, 2013 1:14:05 AM UTC+3, John H Meyers wrote:
> You can sort of "trace" any numeric integration,
> at least on the HP48/49/50 (and even earlier models),
> by implementing the function to be integrated
> as a program which makes an independent list
> of all input values for which it was evaluated,

John's suggestion of "tracing" the progress can be very educational. I did this a few years ago with numeric integration (along with reading William Kahan's article in the HP Journal) and found that it really clarified what was going on, especially with that cubic transformation that it uses. (Interestingly enough, the TI-89/Nspire use this same cubic transformation even though the method it uses already has non-uniformly spaced intervals.)

It occurred to me after last week's post however that I had never taken the time to figure out how the 50g handles Improper Integrals in which one or both limits are infinite (from a to +infinity, from -infinity to b, or from -infinity to +infinity). I went down several wrong paths at first, but after a few days I finally figured it out.

So here's the challenge: Determine how the 50g handles infinite limits.

The reward: The first person to figure it out gets ... uhm, well, gets to understand how the 50g handles infinite limits! Or as I tell my students, solving a math problem is its own reward. :-)

-wes

[Jonathan Bush]

Is this Pascal-like language going to result in compiled code for the 400 MHz ARM processor? No more Saturn emulation? That would be very nice IMO. Will it have graphics commands that correspond to the HPG graphics library that comes with HPGCC? Individual pixel control, double buffered animation, etc.

Will it have a port for a memory card such as SD?

The "Stream Smart 410" sounds like a hardware port that can handle up to four input signals at the same time. Could this plug into, for example, existing devices such as a laser range finder, a GPS, an altimeter etc.?

I greatly appreciate your attention and patience.