HP48 vs 32SII - some thoughts
Matt Nelson
the 15C's buttons are finally giving up after 11 years of trusty service,
so i went out and picked up a 32SII to replace it. to clarify my
perspective: i'm a grad student, half-way through writing his thesis
in experimental nuclear/particle physics.
it's 7:30am on Saturday, i'm at my desk gearing up for a day of
data-fighting, and feeling sorta philosophical... here are some random
thoughts that i have (maybe it's flame-bait, but it's early and my
failsafes are sticky)...
- hewlett packard is an admirable company, always inovative and consistently
producing high-quality products.
- the hp48 takes too damn long to turn on! if i want a single number, say
sqrt(19), it takes longer to wait for the thing to come to life than
to calculate the number.
the 15C/32SII are 'instant on' machines - one of the reasons that i
often reach for them first.
- the 32SII seems like a *very* nice replacement for the legendary (imho)
15C. i don't say this lightly... the 15C was a near perfect calculator...
everything on both of these machines is easy to get to, and the things
are quick to use, light to carry, do all the important stuff, and
then some.
- the 48 is overkill for almost everything i need a calculator for. the
only reason i reach for the 48 now is that i have a program which uses
custom menus, user keyboard and vectored enter all at the same time
(it is a hack to carry errors along with numbers, and propagate them
through all the simple operations). this ability has been a life
saver for me, but it seems that i have a ~$400 dedicated machine for
that purpose...
- the 48 is one hell of an impressive toy. when i first got it, i almost
convinced myself that i *needed* it. i created all sorts of uses for
it's unique features. in retrospect, i think i was just playing.
and how about some open questions to the masses?
- how many of you acknowlege that the 48 is a toy, and really is more
than you *need*? what do you do for a living?
- how many of you *live and breath* soley because of the unique power of
this gadget? ...and your job is?
comments?
-matt nelson
Jeffrey Ray Thieleke
>it's 7:30am on Saturday, i'm at my desk gearing up for a day of
>data-fighting, and feeling sorta philosophical... here are some random
>thoughts that i have (maybe it's flame-bait, but it's early and my
>failsafes are sticky)...
No one should be flamed for expressing their well thought through, and
intelligent opinions. Theoretically, that is! =) (even if they are wrong!)
> - hewlett packard is an admirable company, always inovative and consistently
> producing high-quality products.
Agreed. Add to that a company that really goes the extra mile to take
care of their customers. The completely free upgrade from the slightly
buggy early 48GX versions clearly demonstrates this. Most companies (if
they would even care enough to fix their mistakes) would require a small -
medium upgrade fee. Not HP. They even gave you a box and UPS shipping to
send your old GX! Hewlett-Packard has a very loyal customer base, for
good reason.
> - the hp48 takes too damn long to turn on! if i want a single number, say
> sqrt(19), it takes longer to wait for the thing to come to life than
> to calculate the number.
> the 15C/32SII are 'instant on' machines - one of the reasons that i
> often reach for them first.
Technically, the 15C/32SII take much longer to turn on than to do
sqrt(19), but we are talking milliseconds here.
My GX takes a maximum of 5 seconds or so to turn on. If you don't have 5
seconds to spare in your life, then you have bigger problems than a
calculator the powers up slowly!
In defense of the 48's, I don't think most people turn on their
calculators for only one operation, then turn them off. Since the 48 has
a long timeout period (5 minutes?), you can leave it on to do further
calculations without having to worry about turning it off or running down
the batteries.
> - the 32SII seems like a *very* nice replacement for the legendary (imho)
> 15C. i don't say this lightly... the 15C was a near perfect calculator...
> everything on both of these machines is easy to get to, and the things
> are quick to use, light to carry, do all the important stuff, and
> then some.
I have a 48GX and a 32SII, and I agree that the 32SII is a very good
calculator for basic operations. It's ability to work easily in fractions
is very handy, and something the 48 can't do as well, if at all (without
an additional program that may or may not be available).
But comparing the 48 and 32SII for serious number crunching is silly. A
simple example of this is working with complex numbers. The 32SII can do
simple operations with them, but it's method of displaying them is almost
useable. The 32SII puts the real number on one level of the stack, and
the imaginary part on the other. Since the 32SII only can display one
level at a time, you need to press the x<->y key to switch between the 2
levels. Unfortunately, there is no way of telling which is the real and
which is the imaginary. For me, at least, this almost totally nullifies
the use of complex numbers on the 32SII.
On the 48, the answer is clearly represented in either polar or rect. forms.
Complex number is just an easy example - working with any other sorts of
non-trival math on the 32SII is either hard or impossible.
> - the 48 is overkill for almost everything i need a calculator for. the
> only reason i reach for the 48 now is that i have a program which uses
> custom menus, user keyboard and vectored enter all at the same time
> (it is a hack to carry errors along with numbers, and propagate them
> through all the simple operations). this ability has been a life
> saver for me, but it seems that i have a ~$400 dedicated machine for
> that purpose...
$400?? You payed WAY too much!
It is true that not everyone needs a 48, just like not everyone needs a
Ferrari as opposed to a Pinto. I wouldn't want to drive on the Autobaun
in a Pinto, and I wouldn't want to do serious math on a lesser calculator,
even if it could be done.
> - the 48 is one hell of an impressive toy. when i first got it, i almost
> convinced myself that i *needed* it. i created all sorts of uses for
> it's unique features. in retrospect, i think i was just playing.
The HP48SX and GX are indeed impressive toys - both they are much more
impressive tools. Many people use them for serious work that couldn't be
done as well, or at all, on other calculators.
>and how about some open questions to the masses?
>
> - how many of you acknowlege that the 48 is a toy, and really is more
> than you *need*? what do you do for a living?
...
> - how many of you *live and breath* soley because of the unique power of
> this gadget? ...and your job is?
I am a senior Electrical Engineering student. Do I *live and breath*
because of my HP48GX? Certainly not, but I owe countless hours of saved
work, and quite probably many grades to the power of this most unique of
calculators. As with any tool, this is the true measure of it's usefulness.
[The Egyptions built the pyramids (no UFO crap, please) with manpower and
the most basic of tools. So why don't we build high rise buildings with
the same tools today? It is because we have access to superior tools and
the job requires them. If you are building a tree fort, simple tools are
best for the jobs. If you are building the Sears Tower, using the most
advanced tools makes infinitely more sense.]
I use my calculator both for school and at work. I suppose I could have
done some my work on an inferier calculator, but it would have required so
much additional work as to make it not worth my time.
**************************************************************************
Now I have a question for you. Why do you seem to be so negative towards
HP48s? You often called it a 'toy' and seem to generally hostile to HP48s
and their users.
**************************************************************************
Is it because you see other students with 48s who barely know how to their
calculators turn it on? Who treat it as more of a status symbol than a
serious tool?
I have known and seen many such people, and it makes me rather sad and
amused at the same time. But you can not judge the usefulness of a tool
by the majority of people who use it. Going back to my car analogy: I bet
most Ferrari owners are not excellent drivers, and some Pinto owners are.
That does not mean that the Ferrari (or insert your favorite performance
car of your choice) is a toy.
---
Jeff Thieleke
thie...@icaen.uiowa.edu
http://kahless.isca.uiowa.edu
Thomas Adams
> - how many of you acknowlege that the 48 is a toy, and really is more
> than you *need*? what do you do for a living?
Well, in a way the 48 is the best GameBoy in the world but at the same
time it's _the_ calculator.
I went for the 48G because I couldn't transfer files with my 28S and I
agree on your "overkill" aspect. I need exactly the features that the 28S
has - nothing more. Ok, the massive amount of programs comes _very_ handy
for my studies e.g. simulating simple digital circuits or plotting Bode
diagrams etc.
The bad thing about it is speed. It is terrible slow, just unbelievable
slow sometimes. In certain cases I need much more time for entering data
than to calculate it with my very own brain.
-tom
--
Just 'cause you've got the power that don't mean you've got the right.
Thomas Adams Dortmund Germany
t...@cat.ping.de
eric larson
> - how many of you acknowlege that the 48 is a toy, and really is more
> than you *need*? what do you do for a living?
I use about 2% of the capabilites of this beast, BUT that 2% is unavailable on
any other calculator that I have seen.
> - how many of you *live and breath* soley because of the unique power
> of this gadget? ...and your job is?
I don't live and breath because of the HP48. But there is a time about once a
month when the HP48 does come in very handy.
I am a Ph.D. chemical engineer working in an R&D position.
One major reason I bought the HP48 is because of the 4 line display. When I was
an undergrad I had a terrible time with slide rules bcause my eyesight is not
that good, and found a Friden electronic desktop calculator to do my major
number crunching on. This thing was a desktop 5 function RPN calculator with a
CRT showing 4 levels of the stack. Ever since I have been dissatisfied with my
calculators because of the lack of this 4 line display - until the 48 came on
the scene.
HP doesn't make what I really want, though - an APL calculator. It seems to me
that APL is a natural for a handheld calculator.
Jarno Peschier
[...]
Interesting stuff. Probably all true too (but I don't know the
HP32[letter(s)] and HP15[letter(s)]...
>and how about some open questions to the masses?
>
> - how many of you acknowlege that the 48 is a toy, and really is more
> than you *need*? what do you do for a living?
Yes, I (also) find it a toy. I do much more toying around then really
using the HP48GX for my studies (I study Computer Science at the
Utrecht University in Holland, third year). So what...?
> - how many of you *live and breath* soley because of the unique power of
> this gadget? ...and your job is?
No, that's taking it way too far (in my case)...
JPSOFT
--
Jarno Peschier, jpes...@cs.ruu.nl, 125:3101/100.1@WEM, X:X8X/X1X.X@XiXo,
8X:X5X/X.X@XaXiXNXt, 27:2331/214.1@SigNet, 74:3108/102.1@QuaZie
___________________________________________________________________________
What was was, before was was was? Before was was was, was was is.
Lennart Börjeson @ KTH, Stockholm
>In <nelson.7...@hepxvt.ps.uci.edu> nel...@hepxvt.ps.uci.edu (Matt Nelson) writes:
>
>[...]
>
>>
>> - how many of you acknowlege that the 48 is a toy, and really is more
>> than you *need*? what do you do for a living?
>
>Yes, I (also) find it a toy. I do much more toying around then really
>using the HP48GX for my studies (I study Computer Science at the
>Utrecht University in Holland, third year). So what...?
>
Of course it's a toy, but not *only* a toy!
>> - how many of you *live and breath* soley because of the unique power of
>> this gadget? ...and your job is?
>
>No, that's taking it way too far (in my case)...
>
Too far, yes, but I have solved many job-related problems with it, the most
common kind being new algorithms. I could have managed without, but the way
my mind works, it's so convenient to always have this little toy/tool in my
pocket whenever a solution pops up.
What I want, and what I use the 48 as, is a mathematical/numerical prototyper
where I can design, plot and test formulae and algorithms. I do *not* use it
as a data bank, phone directory, personal planner or gameboy. When I toy with
it, I play around with equations and algorithms... which sometimes has a
bearing on my work, and may lead to something productive. Who can say were
play ends and work begins?
!++
! Lennart Boerjeson, System Manager Emeritus
! (No longer at) School of Electrical Engineering
! Royal Institute of Technology
! S-100 44 Stockholm, Sweden
! tel: int+46-8-7907814
! Internet: lenn...@e.kth.se
!--
Anders Karlsen
|> > - the hp48 takes too damn long to turn on! if i want a single number, say
|> > sqrt(19), it takes longer to wait for the thing to come to life than
|> > to calculate the number.
|>
|> > the 15C/32SII are 'instant on' machines - one of the reasons that i
|> > often reach for them first.
|>
|> Technically, the 15C/32SII take much longer to turn on than to do
|> sqrt(19), but we are talking milliseconds here.
|>
|> My GX takes a maximum of 5 seconds or so to turn on. If you don't have 5
|> seconds to spare in your life, then you have bigger problems than a
|> calculator the powers up slowly!
|>
My HP48SX come on almost INSTANTLY :-)
Anders
Matt Nelson
>nel...@hepxvt.ps.uci.edu (Matt Nelson) writes:
>> - the hp48 takes too damn long to turn on! if i want a single number, say
>> sqrt(19), it takes longer to wait for the thing to come to life than
>> to calculate the number.
>My GX takes a maximum of 5 seconds or so to turn on. If you don't have 5
>seconds to spare in your life, then you have bigger problems than a
>calculator the powers up slowly!
5 seconds! i find that WAY too long (mine only takes about 3s)! my problem is
not that i don't have 5s to spare, but the constant aggravation of typing 'ON
19 SQRT' only to be greeted with an empty stack, or a 'SQRT Error: Too Few
Arguments'. the disciplin of WAITING 3s before typing is something that i
haven't mastered in amost 5 years of using the thing.
>> - the 32SII seems like a *very* nice replacement for the legendary (imho)
>> 15C. i don't say this lightly... the 15C was a near perfect calculator...
>> everything on both of these machines is easy to get to, and the things
>> are quick to use, light to carry, do all the important stuff, and
>> then some.
>But comparing the 48 and 32SII for serious number crunching is silly.
nobody i know uses a calculator for 'serious number crunching'. our problems
can take cpu-days on DEC Alphas. although sometimes i wish there was a
user-RPL compiler for workstations... nice language, imho.
>Complex number is just an easy example - working with any other sorts of
>non-trival math on the 32SII is either hard or impossible.
i do agree that complex numbers on the 32S are nearly a joke. at least
the 15C had a dual stack - one for real and one for imaginary. it also
did matrix calculations...
>$400?? You payed WAY too much!
$275 for the calc + $125 for the 128k RAM card + $35 for the cable. i got
the EQ lib for free, though... back when the 48SX was the new kid on the
block, there weren't any cheap alternatives to the HP accessories.
>The HP48SX and GX are indeed impressive toys - both they are much more
>impressive tools. Many people use them for serious work that couldn't be
>done as well, or at all, on other calculators.
>>and how about some open questions to the masses?
>> - how many of you *live and breath* soley because of the unique power of
>> this gadget? ...and your job is?
>I am a senior Electrical Engineering student. Do I *live and breath*
>because of my HP48GX? Certainly not, but I owe countless hours of saved
>work, and quite probably many grades to the power of this most unique of
>calculators. As with any tool, this is the true measure of it's usefulness.
this is what i suspected... i think the 48 series is probably more fully
utilized by the engineers of the world than by the pure-science folk
(although many of the latter carry one around).
i also suspect that undergrads are more impressed by it than grad students.
as you move farther away from the book-learning and get into your own
research, you begin to use the creative/analytical part of your noggin
more; a realm where the 48 is of more limited value. (boy, looking at
that statement... better get out the asbestos suit...)
>**************************************************************************
>Now I have a question for you. Why do you seem to be so negative towards
>HP48s? You often called it a 'toy' and seem to generally hostile to HP48s
>and their users.
>**************************************************************************
i appologize if i hurt any feelings... i certainly did NOT want to insult
or be hostile toward the 48 or its fans. remember, i've had my 48 ever
since the bug-free ROM E came out. before that i had a 28s. i've read
the HP-calc newsgroup even before comp.sys.hp48 existed.
my thoughts were more directed toward a survey of sorts... who really uses
the 48? any 'negative' remarks are simply my thoughts as to why *I* don't
use it much. fact is, if it was 30% smaller and turned on instantly, i
would never use anything else. silly, eh? but, alas, true.
>Is it because you see other students with 48s who barely know how to their
>calculators turn it on? Who treat it as more of a status symbol than a
>serious tool?
i have never even thought about judging somebody by their motivation to
own a 48. curious about it, maybe...
>I have known and seen many such people, and it makes me rather sad and
>amused at the same time. But you can not judge the usefulness of a tool
>by the majority of people who use it. Going back to my car analogy: I bet
i only judge the usefulness of a tool by how it helps *me*. a 20 ton
punch-press would be a lousy tool for me, but others might find it
rather handy to have around.
>most Ferrari owners are not excellent drivers, and some Pinto owners are.
>That does not mean that the Ferrari (or insert your favorite performance
>car of your choice) is a toy.
bad analogy. i think that there are strong arguments that any transportation
beyond the basics is 100% 'toy'. it would be a stronger analogy if the
ferrari could get me to San Diego, but the pinto simply wasn't able to (hmm,
maybe it's a stronger analogy than i thought :o)
-matt
Tony Schreiner
My HP48G turns on almost instantly, too. Perhaps it's expanded RAM that
slows it down. I couldn't really time the turn-on time. It just quickly
fades in, and I can do what I want. By quickly, I mean well less than a
second.
--
.............................. /\_ _/\ ...................
Tony Schreiner [X] : /\_/ _\__/ \/\_ /\ : "Don't Panic"
tsch...@lamar.colostate.edu : /\/ \ / \ / \_ \/ : Amiga, HP48G!
Eric Crampton
: My HP48SX come on almost INSTANTLY :-)
Agreed. My 48GX powers on in under 1 sec. It could be that others have
expansion cards in their calcs; I have none.
--
ecra...@csugrad.cs.vt.edu | "Women... Can't live with 'em, can't shoot 'em.
Eric Crampton | - Steven Wright
Matthew Cravit
> Agreed. My 48GX powers on in under 1 sec. It could be that others have
> expansion cards in their calcs; I have none.
Mine also comes on in about a second. I think the biggest determinants
of this time are:
1) Amount of RAM which needs to be self-tested, initialized,
etc.
2) Number of attached libraries
/Matthew
--
Matthew Cravit N9VWG | "A child of five could solve
DePaul University | this problem...quick, fetch
Chicago, IL 60614 | me a child of five!"
crav...@interaccess.com http://www.interacces.com/users/cravitma
TedC DOT
local variables BUT the 32S can't hold enough programs. I have a few very
simple needs for a few programs and the 32S is't sufficient. Getting 512K
would be ridiculous for me but maybe not for surveyors who use them as
data collectors. The price difference between a 48G and a 32S isn't all
that much anyway. Plus I can wait for one second while my calculator
boots up. That's a lot faster than my Mac.
Bruce Bowen
> nel...@hepxvt.ps.uci.edu (Matt Nelson) writes:
>
> It is true that not everyone needs a 48, just like not everyone needs a
> Ferrari as opposed to a Pinto. I wouldn't want to drive on the Autobaun
> in a Pinto, and I wouldn't want to do serious math on a lesser calculator,
> even if it could be done.
>
>> - the 48 is one hell of an impressive toy. when i first got it, i almost
>> convinced myself that i *needed* it. i created all sorts of uses for
>> it's unique features. in retrospect, i think i was just playing.
>
> The HP48SX and GX are indeed impressive toys - both they are much more
> impressive tools. Many people use them for serious work that couldn't be
> done as well, or at all, on other calculators.
What if you built a calculator into the handle of a screw driver?
Then you'd have a screwdriver that does what no other screwdriver can
do. The point is, beyond a certain point, you don't want a calculator
no matter how powerfull. You want a computer, with a least a 17"
color monitor, 22.8K fax modem, and a 1 GByte hard drive. :) Or at least
a laptop for the road.
>
>
>>and how about some open questions to the masses?
>>
>> - how many of you acknowlege that the 48 is a toy, and really is more
>> than you *need*? what do you do for a living?
>
> ...
>
>> - how many of you *live and breath* soley because of the unique power of
>> this gadget? ...and your job is?
Well I think it is WAY overpowered (functionally) for what it is
(ie, a calculator). Get real. For any real work I use my Sun
Sparcstation at work, or my 486 PC at home. The only reason I bought
my 48 is because it is the only (production) progammable calculator
out there I'm aware of that has serial I/O capability, hence, I can
use it as a handheld programmable controller for controlling other
equipment. I wish the HP41CX was still in production.
I will admit though, it is a fun toy!
-Bruce bbo...@megatest.com
Dietrich Feist
Jeff Thieleke (thie...@icaen.uiowa.edu) wrote:
JRT>It is true that not everyone needs a 48, just like not everyone needs
JRT>a Ferrari as opposed to a Pinto. I wouldn't want to drive on the
JRT>Autobaun in a Pinto, and I wouldn't want to do serious math on a
JRT>lesser calculator, even if it could be done.
Hi Jeff,
nowadays it doesn't make much difference if you drive on any "Autobahn" (there
are in fact quite many "Autobahns" here, an Autobahn is the same to us as an
Interstate is to you except there is no general speed-limit) in a Ferrari or a
Pinto. The traffic has grown so heavy that almost everybody has to go the same
speed which would settle around 130-150 km/h (you can convert it to mph using
your HP). Chances to go faster than 150 km/h are rare depening on were and when
you are driving. Only once or twice I have been able to take my car to its
maximum speed of 190 km/h.
In the calculator world things are different. Unlike cars calculators don't
loose performance if many other people around you are also using their
calculators. Here I can settle for the Ferrari of calculators especially since
I can afford it (unlike the real Ferrari). I have only had my HP48GX for about
two weeks now and so far I am really impressed. I bought it to help me when I
start working on my PhD in physics. When I look at what this machine can do I
imagine how useful it would have been if I had had it two years ago when I was
still working on my masters doing my thesis.
Anyway, it seems to be a great machine, much more than just a toy!
Bye, DiDi
wh...@maple.circa.ufl.edu
Well, I'll throw in my $0.02 on this thread. Granted, I am still in
school, but I've had the opportunity to Co-Op for 3 summers to see what the
job world is like as well. :) Do I ABSOLUTELY need an HP48? Well, I had
one professor say "You'll need an HP calc to pass this class." Then when
I took another class from him later he gave us a final exam with a 21X21
matrix which we had to perform a full least squares solution on. Granted, we
had to write a program to do this on a PC during the semester, but the power
to do a 21X21 least squares solution in the palm of your hand is simply
amazing!! I even hooked up my dot matrix (serial) Apple Imagewriter II
printer to my HP to print out my work... The rest of my classmates used the
PC program they'd written. I used my pocket "wonder-tool".
This summer at work, my boss was asking me how much fill he would need to
raise the height of his backyard 3 inches. Anyone care to compute the fill
volume needed to cover 10 acres with 3 inches of compacted soil. I whipped
out my HP, added units to my numbers and had an answer in less than a minute.
Sure, I could have done this on paper, but writing it out would have taken
longer than it took to do in my HP. :)
Now, if I ever end up on a Surveying Crew and get to use an HP48 as a
data collector attached to a field instrument, then I will truly be able to
say I NEED AN HP48 and Nothing Less will do! Granted, a laptop makes a
nice data collector, but good field-proof laptops are thousands of $$$ more
expensive. :)
Mark Wendt WHERE? WH...@maple.circa.ufl.edu or WEN...@firnvx.firn.edu
Stefan Wolfrum
: nel...@hepxvt.ps.uci.edu (Matt Nelson) writes:
: >>My GX takes a maximum of 5 seconds or so to turn on. If you don't have 5
: >>seconds to spare in your life, then you have bigger problems than a
: >>calculator the powers up slowly!
: >5 seconds! i find that WAY too long (mine only takes about 3s)! my problem is
: >not that i don't have 5s to spare, but the constant aggravation of typing 'ON
: >19 SQRT' only to be greeted with an empty stack, or a 'SQRT Error: Too Few
: >Arguments'. the disciplin of WAITING 3s before typing is something that i
: >haven't mastered in amost 5 years of using the thing.
: I just timed mine, and in an average of about 25 trials, the average
: startup time (the time from off to a useful state) was a little over 2
: seconds.
: So press ON, think a brief happy thought, then you'll be ready to go! Or
: maybe it just isn't the calculator for you...
<grin>
Well, the different timings come from the following fact: Everytime a HP48
is turned on, it does some checks. Mainly checks about the installed libraries
and especially if there were new libraries stored that aren't attached yet.
Those have to be attached first, the consequence is a warm-start...
Try the following: remove all your libraries (do a backup before) from port 0
and put out all your cards from port 1 or 2. Now power down the HP 48 and
power it on again...
The GX is *MUCH* faster in coming up than the SX models. In fact you can very
quickly start typing your calculation after pressing the ON key to turn
the machine on...
[_much_ stuff deleted]
Another remark: Here in Germany everybody (well, almost) laughs after I told
him/her I'm seriously interested in calculators. Is it the same in the US?
Why not? I must say that I'm not an engineer nor a physics or chemistry man.
My interest is for the machine itself. I'm a cs student and I like the tool
itself, it's abilities. In addition to that I'm interested in the historical
evolution of HP calculators...
So, why do most people think it's rediculous to be seriously envolved with
pocket calculators?
Their arguments are like "nobody needs such a machine", "I don't care whether
there is such a machine or not", "I use my computer to calc FFTs or complex
numbers or matrices or similar...", "Who the heck wants to calculate a FFT (or sim.)
in a bus or a subway train?", "Do more serious things!", "Calculators! So what?"...
Am I alone with those kind of "friends"?
A litte bit sad,
Stefan.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stefan Wolfrum Department of Computer Science, Graphics Group
Servatiusstrasse 27 University of Bonn, Germany
D-53175 BONN eMail: wol...@uran.cs.bonn.edu
GERMANY Stefan_...@su.maus.de (less than 16K)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dave Arnett
: [ lots of interesting comments, none offensive. ]
: - hewlett packard is an admirable company, always inovative and consistently
: producing high-quality products.
Amen. That's part of the reason I hired on here.
: - the hp48 takes too damn long to turn on! if i want a single number, say
: sqrt(19), it takes longer to wait for the thing to come to life than
: to calculate the number.
You think YOURS takes too long? I've got a 1Meg card which I filled with
all kinds of libraries while testing the Port 2 Bank Switch hardware.
The checking and initializing associated with that card are *almost*
unbearable! Which is why it sits in my carrying case, not my card port.
If plugged in, my startup can take ten seconds or more!
: the 15C/32SII are 'instant on' machines - one of the reasons that i
: often reach for them first.
<grin> Beats the average laptop by orders of magnitude.
: - the 32SII seems like a *very* nice replacement for the legendary (imho)
: 15C. i don't say this lightly... the 15C was a near perfect calculator...
: - the 48 is overkill for almost everything i need a calculator for. the
: only reason i reach for the 48 now is that i have a program which uses
: custom menus, user keyboard and vectored enter all at the same time
: (it is a hack to carry errors along with numbers, and propagate them
: through all the simple operations). this ability has been a life
: saver for me, but it seems that i have a ~$400 dedicated machine for
: that purpose...
My PC is also overkill, because it can do lost of stuff I don't need.
The same is true of my Workstation. The key is that there are functions
I need to do which (1) my '48 CAN do, (2) no less-expensive machine can do,
and, (3) no equally portable machine can do. So for my needs, the '48 is
the best fit. The fact that it can do even _more_ than my minimal list
is by no means a detractor!!
: - the 48 is one hell of an impressive toy. when i first got it, i almost
: convinced myself that i *needed* it. i created all sorts of uses for
: it's unique features. in retrospect, i think i was just playing.
You are a true techie: you can combine technical work and play. The fact
that there is playful enjoyment alongside does not mean there is not also
valuable work going on (The old Puritans might not agree). If I look back
up one paragraph in your post, I see that you have developed some unique
features on your own which are now "a life saver for" you. I'm glad that
the machine allowed you to create something new and powerful while you
were "just playing."
: and how about some open questions to the masses?
: - how many of you acknowlege that the 48 is a toy, and really is more
: than you *need*? what do you do for a living?
I agree that "toy" describes one aspect of the '48. And I'll acknowledge
that the the '48 surpasses my needs only if we can agree that it also
meets my needs and expectations. I am a design engineer with Hewlett-
Packard Co., and was the sole hardware guy for the G series product.
So clearly I have bias. But that bias was created when I first played a
moon lander game on an HP calculator when I was in junior high school.
That bias was strengthened when I got to college and found out how much
more I could do with my new HP than with anything else on the bookstore
shelves.
: - how many of you *live and breath* soley because of the unique power of
: this gadget? ...and your job is?
<grin> love the hyperbole! ;) I will state quite seriously that I do live
and breathe BETTER because of the unique power of the HP48. When I go into
meetings and I can quickly solve complex relationships using the built-in
power of the 48, my life is better. When I sat at a recent IEEE symposium
session in which attendees began discussing the shielding properties of
various metallic systems, and I was the ONLY one in the room with a complete
periodic table listing electrical and mechanical properties of all the
elements, my profesional status was mildly enhanced by my ability to
contribute in a meaningful way. I could not have done so without the
'48 and the periodic table library. My job is to be an expert at a broad
range of technical and practical issues related to electromagnetic
compatability. I have to speak with knowledge and authority whether I am
sitting at my desk, inches from a high-powered workstation, or sitting on
a train in Tokyo talking to a business contact, or even when I am in a
meeting or on a tour with a vendor at his/her factory. As a professional,
I rely on my HP48 because it is powerful, reliable, accurate, versatile,
and portable. And that has some small effect on the quality of my life.
Others' results may vary. You may find your needs change when you leave
school, depending on how much of your work happens at your desk. Myself,
I'd recommend you keep your HPs handy.
Dave Arnett.
---------------------
I don't speak for HP when I post here.
Seth Arnold
> pocket calculators?
Woah! Seriously involved?!?! This is a *family* newsgroup! <g>
> Am I alone with those kind of "friends"?
Nope. I am a freind. :)
--
"I never let my public schooling get in the way of my education."
-- Mark Twain
Richard M Presley
****** Much stuff deleted ******
>
> Another remark: Here in Germany everybody (well, almost) laughs after I told
> him/her I'm seriously interested in calculators. Is it the same in the US?
> Why not? I must say that I'm not an engineer nor a physics or chemistry man.
> My interest is for the machine itself. I'm a cs student and I like the tool
> itself, it's abilities. In addition to that I'm interested in the historical
> evolution of HP calculators...
>
> So, why do most people think it's rediculous to be seriously envolved with
> pocket calculators?
>
> Their arguments are like "nobody needs such a machine", "I don't care whether
> there is such a machine or not", "I use my computer to calc FFTs or complex
> numbers or matrices or similar...", "Who the heck wants to calculate a FFT (or sim.)
> in a bus or a subway train?", "Do more serious things!", "Calculators! So what?"...
>
> Am I alone with those kind of "friends"?
>
> A litte bit sad,
> Stefan.
> --
Don't worry, I'm also interested in the HP calculators themselves also. I've
been poking around in my 48SX for the last week or two with the MLDL library
card! There's SO MUCH STUFF crammed into a handful of components and plastic!
The whole thing is cool, hardware and programming and everything. I'm scared
to actually open it up and look inside, but I'm really curious. I think it
would be cool to work on the Corvallis team and design the HP calcs!! As for
my friends, I don't give a rat's *** what they think about me being interested
in calculators!! I'm not trying to impress my friends, I'm just looking for
something fun and productive to do and get payed for.
Later,
Rick P
rmp5...@tntech.edu
Mika Heiskanen
>: - the hp48 takes too damn long to turn on! if i want a single number, say
>: sqrt(19), it takes longer to wait for the thing to come to life than
>: to calculate the number.
>
>You think YOURS takes too long? I've got a 1Meg card which I filled with
>all kinds of libraries while testing the Port 2 Bank Switch hardware.
>The checking and initializing associated with that card are *almost*
>unbearable! Which is why it sits in my carrying case, not my card port.
>If plugged in, my startup can take ten seconds or more!
Hey Dave, I know you as a hardware guy aren't as familiar with the srpl
implementations in the HP48. You might be interested in timing the following
subroutines with your 1M card in the slot. Perhaps you then might have a word
with the software team..?
LABEL CATROMPID (GX: #8E15 SX: #8E32)
( --> {#libids} )
::
NULL{} ( No libids yet )
ZERO ( First possible libid )
BEGIN
NEXTROMPID ( Get next libid >= arg if possible )
WHILE
:: DUPUNROT >TCOMP SWAP#1+ ; ( Got next, add it to the list )
REPEAT
;
Smell the rat already? Yes, you're right, building a list by adding 1
element at a time? Anyone who has done any timing knows better..
LABEL CATROMPID2
::
ZERO ( Empty Meta object )
ZERO ( First possible libid )
BEGIN
NEXTROMPID ( Get next libid )
WHILE
:: SWAP#1+ OVER #1+ ; ( Add libid to the Meta object )
REPEAT
{}N ( Build list from Meta object )
;
The following timings are for my GX rev P with 2 128K cards. Warmstart takes
about 4 seconds when the cards contain:
card 1: 6 libs, 2 backups
card 2: 9 backups
CATROMPID: 1.30 seconds
CATROMPID2: 0.24 seconds
To gain a bit more you should note that the configuration loop will explode
the list so building the list in the first place is unnecessary. In fact
collecting all the libids is unnecessary, you might as well recall the
configuration object in the loop and and evaluate it:
LABEL ROMPOLL2 ( Modified from GX rev P ROMPOLL at #21DD )
::
NULL{} SEVEN SETDEF ( Some initialization )
ZERO ( First possible libid )
BEGIN
NEXTROMPID ( Get next libid )
WHILE
::
DUP ( Duplicate libid for )
GETCONFIG IT PTR 71646 ( Evaluate possible config object )
#1+ ( libid++ for NEXTROMPID )
;
REPEAT
;
Timings:
ROMPOLL: 1.65 seconds
ROMPOLL2: 0.42 seconds
Perhaps you or Joe or someone with a 1M card would care to time the
differences when you have lots of stuff in the cards?
--
---
--> Mika Heiskanen mhei...@gamma.hut.fi
blp...@vaxb.isc.rit.edu
>In article <1994Nov7.1...@news.uit.no> and...@stud.cs.uit.no (Anders Karlsen) writes:
>>|>
>>|> > - the hp48 takes too damn long to turn on! if i want a single number, say
>>|> > sqrt(19), it takes longer to wait for the thing to come to life than
>>|> > to calculate the number.
>>|>
>>|> > the 15C/32SII are 'instant on' machines - one of the reasons that i
>>|> > often reach for them first.
>>|>
>>|> Technically, the 15C/32SII take much longer to turn on than to do
>>|> sqrt(19), but we are talking milliseconds here.
>>|>
>>|> My GX takes a maximum of 5 seconds or so to turn on. If you don't have 5
>>|> seconds to spare in your life, then you have bigger problems than a
>>|> calculator the powers up slowly!
>>|>
>>
>>My HP48SX come on almost INSTANTLY :-)
>>
>
>My HP48G turns on almost instantly, too. Perhaps it's expanded RAM that
>slows it down. I couldn't really time the turn-on time. It just quickly
>fades in, and I can do what I want. By quickly, I mean well less than a
>second.
>
and FAR less than 5 seconds. To all those whose calcs take more than 2-3 sec to
turn on, i would have it checked out, or at least be worried about this. I have
never seen this behavior in any HP48 i have operated.
Phantom #138
: nel...@hepxvt.ps.uci.edu (Matt Nelson) writes:
: >>My GX takes a maximum of 5 seconds or so to turn on. If you don't have 5
: >>seconds to spare in your life, then you have bigger problems than a
: >>calculator the powers up slowly!
: >5 seconds! i find that WAY too long (mine only takes about 3s)! my problem is
: >not that i don't have 5s to spare, but the constant aggravation of typing 'ON
: >19 SQRT' only to be greeted with an empty stack, or a 'SQRT Error: Too Few
: >Arguments'. the disciplin of WAITING 3s before typing is something that i
: >haven't mastered in amost 5 years of using the thing.
Get yourself a TI-36X solar calculator for those times that you need to
do a quick calculation. With the 36X you never need to turn it off! It
has absolutely no batterys and the new solar panel they use can produce
electricity in very dim light. Its only $20.00.
Matt Nelson
if it's RPN, i'll take 2.
seriously, though... after all this discussion, i finally got around to
playing around a bit. i nuked memory and pulled out all my cards. here's
what i found:
- the 'base' 48sx (32k, no libs) is sorta close to 'instant on'. very
useable imho.
- adding the 128k card didn't really slow it down too much, although
once in a while it would take about 1s to turn on; garbage collection,
i guess.
- adding my usual 3 or 4 libraries in RAM also didn't slow it up much.
now i'm almost back to my 'normal' config, and it seems to be working
quite quickly; takes <1s to turn on, in most attempts.
then i added the Equation Library (82211A), and *boom*. 3s to turn on.
what a dog.
ya know, i got the Eq Lib very early on, and it has *always* lived in
port 2, and i guess i forgot what life was like without it.
needless to say, the Eq Lib now lives in the pocket of the case. when i
need to look something up in the periodic table, it's within easy reach.
i must say that i am happier now.
-matt